Dating Advice For Men Part 3 Robert Dunn & Elizabeth Stone

Hey, what's going on, guys? Welcome to the Orion Group Podcast.

You know, I'm fantastic. How are you? Good. I'm thrilled to be here. We always have such a good time.

Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Website, thepodcast.com. But as promised, we will continue with my dating tips.

Fantastic. I'm super excited. I was hoping you would.

You know, this was kind of been, I'm gonna say, laying some groundwork. But I think tonight I want to get into more, or even say more, but more specifically, I guess, would be the strategy, some strategies that I implement, which I should have been hesitant to say because I don't like giving away my strategy. Nevertheless.

Well, if you try one, tell the, tell the woman that it's Robert's strategy before you start.

There you go. You can put it on me. No problem.

I have to credit this to Robert.

Because, you know, uh, you know, in this show, first couple of shows really been kind of talking about more foundational. Like we started off with talking about purpose, right? Like I said, Before, before I would talk to any guy, I want to talk to him about purpose. As we go along, you should hopefully be starting to see now that with women, the best thing you can do is to work on you. You know, as a man, I guess you can say it's taking the flip side of it.

Yes.

But especially for the fellas, because when you start looking at what really is attractive to women and what is arousing to women, because remember, there's a difference. We've talked about that. A lot of these things are or characteristics that you can build as you're building yourself. It's kind of just something that will happen naturally as you build you. And that's the great news. That's good news. So you're not so constantly focusing externally on the external things. Because when you're constantly focusing on the external things, then this is how you get into bad places with men. This is how men can become incels. Incels are just guys who think that they are so not qualified for all of the things that they— that are external that they have no chance, that all the things that they necessarily can't control are, you know, because they can't control them, because they essentially can't really do much about them, then there's no hope.

Right. They've counted themselves out of the dating market. Right.

And so the good news for every guy out there is that, you know, you can do the things to— there's things you can do, or all the things that you should be doing really do have a How should I say, will affect your relationship with women, will affect how you are attractive to women. And that's, to me, the greatest news that I could give you, that it's in your control. Most of it is in your control. Because at the end of the day, no matter what you are, how successful you are, how good looking you are, you're never going to be attractive to all women.

Right. Nobody is.

Nobody is. It just doesn't work that way. And so when you try to be— I actually read a review today on the new Star Wars movie, and one of the things that one of the writers said about it was it tried to be everything to everybody.

That is the kiss of death.

Right, that's when we all know that is a kiss of death. That is not a recipe for success.

All right, well, and sometimes we have to really talk ourselves out of that too, because it's easy to say like, oh, I'm limiting myself by only only wanting this one thing, or, oh, my standards are too high. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Limit yourself because you don't need a lot of quality things.

Oh, he's gonna get us all in some trouble.

Sorry, we're gonna go to a high level again. I'm sorry. Strategies. So you're absolutely right. I just had to agree with that emphatically. Just wholeheartedly. Everybody is not your flavor, and that's okay.

That's okay. And that's honestly— actually, you know what, really what I want to do initially is kind of expand upon what we were talking about in regards to frame. Because there were some questions about this. And a lot of the questions I got from guys, or kind of comments from guys about this, had to do with essentially, like, I want this girl. So what kind of frame do I need to have to get this specific girl?

Ah, the shapeshifter.

Right. I'm like, no, that is not, that is not That is not where we— this is not the— this is not how any of—

right. Well, this is what happens when you do it badly. The shapeshifter method is bad. Do not do it that way.

Because you have to understand as a man, when you have an established frame and you understand the importance of maintaining and holding a frame, you are going to lose.

And you should.

And you should. Epitome.

Epitome.

Epitome.

Sorry. No, I thought that was your epitome. I thought that's what— I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I'm just playing. Nah.

But your abundance mindset and a scarcity again, so you cannot do a lot of these things with a scarcity mindset. And now, and I know we've hit that a lot, and I know that that's almost common sense to a lot of people. But when we talk about abundance mindset, we're talking about really largely as a man the ability to let things go, to let opportunities go. Because one, there's one thing to have an opportunity, but the top level master. Master level is when you're able to even have a good opportunity come through and still say, because you finally have gotten to a point where you realize this is who I am, this is my frame, this is what's true for me, what's authentic, and it's just not a fit.

Right.

Right. I mean, it's, it's just not a fit. It's not that the opportunity isn't good, it's just not a fit. You realize and you finally trust all your experiences that tell you When it's not a fit, it's not going to work no matter what you try to do, no matter what, how you try to spin it and do all the crazy stuff. Ultimately, it's always going to come down to, you know, for the majority of the time, that there needs to be a genuine fit and not just for women, for everything. I've known people who've gone through like the academy to become a policeman or a firefighter and they've gotten to the very end, but the guy just— it just didn't feel right. Was what he was pursuing wrong? Absolutely not. Was he doing the work and do all things? Yes. But at the end of the day, it didn't feel true to who he was.

Right.

So that's kind of where we're initially.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think that that's a really good point about kind of knowing who you are and the difference between stretching and also knowing yourself and honoring who you really are and your standards. Because there's a difference between Saying to yourself, okay, I have to be this person in order to get this, this human to like me, which is the shapeshifter method. And then there's, and then there's, gosh, you know, I actually feel the need to become a better person in general, because I'm in this person's presence, and they feel different. And I know that, like, they feel different is a real nebulous thing.

Mm-hmm.

But it's true that you can be around people who inspire you to be your best. And we're never telling you like, nope, stick with being mediocre because that's who you are. That's not it. It's that you should not look at somebody else and think that you have to change who you are to be with them. It should be that they maybe inspire you or that you're better together, but the raw materials are all there.

And this is exactly— I love what you said, raw materials, because so many times I've said that that's how it shows up. It shows up in raw material, but we keep looking for completed projects. Right.

Right. And they're not— it doesn't work like that.

It doesn't work that way. When a true chef can go in your refrigerator or your pantry right now and grab something, you know, that you think is— you think you don't have anything to eat, but a true chef can see that I could take this and mix it with that and cut to them, boom, we can make a little bit of something that'll be decent enough, you know, to eat. Right. And that's a perception because that's the corner of the universe they come from. Right. This is exactly why you When you have a good— when you, when you meet somebody that, that, that has those raw materials and you have that right perception, you can see how that is what you're needing or what they're needing to become whatever it is they're trying to become or whatever type of relationship you're trying to have, right? And so there's really an importance in terms of perception because how you see a thing is how you're going to go about it, right? How are you going to— this is the whole thing when it comes to one man's trash is another man's treasure. That's a perception. That's what exactly what we're talking about there is perception. How can you be trash to somebody else and treasured onto another person? Perception. They see you like treasure, or one person sees you like trash. It doesn't mean that you're one or the other.

Right? Yeah. And also the Pygmalion effect is the name for this. So this is when you decide how people are going to be and then they live up to that. That's been proven. There was a study where these people took 2 groups of people and then they took rats. They told one group of people that the rats were really smart rats and they were really special rats and they were really great at what they did. Then they just— I can't remember if they told the other people that they had dumb rats or they just didn't say anything. Well, at the end of the test, the smart rat people— so the coach— the coaches of the smart rats had much more performing rats even though they were the same thing.

Right.

And it was all based on the way that the coaches treated the rats when they were trying to train them. So, your perception of the people in your life changes those people and it does it down to the smallest detail. You would be shocked. Like, not you, Robert, but I mean, sometimes people are shocked to find that when they just change their perception of somebody else, the other person's actions, what they say and everything completely changes.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, this happened to me the other day. This woman called me charismatic, and I never saw myself like that. Like, I don't know. I don't know the idea of—

Yeah, we talked about this last week. Like, somebody said that to me. Yeah.

And it was— Because my idea of charismatic is not— was not me, put it that way. Right.

Yeah. That's why I thought it was so weird. Right.

But then you started kind of walking like, okay, I know, I guess I have it. You know what I mean?

It sounds great. Let's do it.

Exactly. And so absolutely it has. And it's— but really what I want guys to understand about— there's really 2 elements to this. And one element is It's really holding true to what is true for you, and that has to do with the internal, right? So when I say there's two elements to this frame thing, there's the internal, and then there's the external, like most things, right? And the internal aspect of this is holding true to what is true for you. This is why we have to be careful with this, because we're not talking about not being able to be flexible. You know, we're not talking about not being able to meet people halfway. We have to be reasonable because guys will take. frame to the point where like they'll want to go have Chinese food, you know, their girl wants to have, you know, burgers or whatever, right?

They're like, nope.

Yeah, exactly. They're like, ah, because I'll— I'm, you know, I'm losing frame if I— like, no, that's—

I'm sticking to my standards. Like, no, but it, you know, there— that's a good point because it takes people a little bit of time and readjustment to treat boundaries like they are fences and not brick walls, you know.

Exactly. And there's certain things that you should be flexible. We're talking about these internals, core truths, your value.

Yes.

Right. Um, that's probably the best way. Just your values, certain things that are just, when you go against these things, you're, you're really betraying yourself. You know, for a fact that's not you. Right.

Yeah. And hobbies can be an example of this. Like when you, you know, and this is a little more superficial than, than value. If you're going to pretend that you are the world's best hiker, to go back to an analogy we were using a couple weeks ago, when you hate it, if you have a strong emotion about something and you are just not going with that because you're just not honoring that about yourself, this is that kind of thing. This is pretending you're the world's greatest hiker when you really don't want to ever have anything to do with it. There's a difference between like being willing to try and then also having tried and failed and never wanting to go back.

Right, exactly. So honestly, it's a perfect example just to give that clarity to the situation.

Right.

And so the other half of this is more of the external in terms of how you build your life. Like, how are you building your career, your work? And you talk about purpose and, you know, and how you're building what, what you're, what you're, what is your everyday normal? Right. Because remember, the point of frame is to attract what's yours. I don't mean that what's yours possessively, right?

But— But what's right for you.

What's right for you. That is the greatest. Because you got to think of women as that they're kind of going door to door trying to figure out which house they want to live in.

Right. And so are men, really, when they're looking for relationships.

Right, exactly. But just for the sake of this conversation, we'll say, let's think of this as you get a chance to build your own house exactly the way you want, right?

That's a good analogy. Yeah.

Man, you get all the resources that you need to have it and build it the exact way you want it, not to sell it, right? Because this is—

Right. But that's a, that's a good point though. That's a really good distinction because a lot of people look at the external as a vehicle toward selling themselves to the world. And if you look at it like that, that's okay, but it misses something fundamental about personal satisfaction, I think.

Absolutely. Because what you'll do is if you're trying to sell it, then you're going to get the data like, okay, what are people in this area looking for? They don't like pools. You're right, but you want to pull. But the stats say people aren't looking for pulls because there's too much upkeep, right? And so you don't pull. See, that's kind of the trouble you get in. This is what the guys— the kind of comments I got when we started talking about frame last time from a couple of the guys. This is kind of the road they were going down because they wanted to know, I want this girl, how do I build a frame for that girl? It's like, well, that's the whole point. This is where game comes in and pickup artistry can be so dangerous. It's not fully a bad thing in general necessarily, but this is why it can be a bad thing for a lot of men because they're putting on things that aren't That aren't true for them. It'll work. But now—

But for how long?

For how long? Because eventually she's going to find out that you're really not a hiker.

Exactly. You are not enthusiastic about motocross or whatever.

And if there's anything I've learned about the lady in my short time on this planet has been that women get really upset when they find out you are not who you say you are.

Well, yes, because why are you doing— like, we wouldn't be mad at you if you just came clean about it, like maybe a little disappointed that you don't want to, you know, hike at sunrise or something ridiculous. But hikers— Sorry, I didn't know we were doing that. Sorry, hikers. But anyway, you know, but we might be a little disappointed, but we're not going to be nearly as upset as if you just lie to us and just pretend to be somebody else. Don't pretend to be somebody else because who you are is perfectly good for whoever you're meant to be with or whoever, you know, catches your eye. later or whatever. But you can't treat it like this one person has to, you know, it's either gonna work or it's not based on this one person because you're gonna act desperate. You're gonna switch yourself around like a pretzel. And at the end of the day, they're not gonna love you anyway because they're not— they're not gonna know you. And they're gonna sense that there is something wrong with it.

Right.

They're just gonna see it on a very basic, like, animal level, and they will know, and they're not— they're gonna leave you alone.

And you have to understand, women's intuition when it comes to this is strong. I mean, don't—

This is how we stay alive.

Yeah. There's a very biological necessity for a woman to know the guy that she's getting involved with because there was real ramifications throughout history.

And there still are. Absolutely.

You got to know because for most of human history, women relied upon the men that they got connected with, especially the men they got pregnant by. And so if you were talking about you're the— you're part of the king's court, And she has a child, you know, she gets pregnant by you, then she finds out you're the court jester, right? That literally puts her life and her baby's life at risk.

And the other thing is, if she senses— so if a woman senses that there is something wrong with your story, she's not going to assume that you're like volunteering at the rest home and you're an amazing person, you know, and just hiding from her. You know, she's not going to assume that you're, you know, leading a Boy Scout troop into, you know, leadership. You know, she's not to assume that you're actually a wonderful person on the side. She's gonna think you're a criminal and she's gonna leave you alone. So if you just do us a favor and be you so that we can appreciate you, because we can't appreciate you if you're lying to us.

Back to a lot of these talk about why it's— why I've always dreaded talking about this, because—

Because I'm like, no, you know, please just don't lie. Um, you know, I'm doing it really too for, for the other women that I work with and the people that come to me and they're so heartbroken because you'd be surprised, men, how irresistible you are when you are truly yourselves. You know, when you're just you being excited about stuff you're excited about. Like we can tell you don't like hiking or whatever. Like we can tell you're doing it, you know, you're going to the ballet because you know it makes us happy.

Right.

But if you go to— if you do something that you're truly excited about with us, like that is very, very attractive. And it's hard for you not to be attractive to us when you are in your element.

Oh God, there's nothing like being in your element. Oh my gosh, if there's nothing like being in your element, it's— you need to find your element because everything— you realize why you were put on this earth because you finally feel like you belong. You finally feel like you have a place to produce results. And again, for the fellas, I know that that's everything. Guys will do the most amazing, incredible things in this world when they find their element because their personality fits in there, your skill set and the things that went wrong fit in your element, the things that went right fit in. And it's almost like you see how you've been molded to fit this particular place. And even if you don't end up being a famous multimillionaire, you, you was the happiest man on the planet are men who find their element, right?

Yes.

It's— I wish I could make you. All right.

Well, and the other thing about it is that, so say your element bores the crap out of the person that you're interested in. So say, you know, it's, it's something ridiculously boring to them, whatever it is. Now, even though that particular thing might not turn them on, you being that excited and in your element, that energetic component is very important that you keep doing that thing and you do not compromise on doing that thing, even if the other person doesn't appreciate it or understand it. Because that energy of you being fulfilled will feed the relationship. Even if that other person doesn't get it and they try to get you to give it up, never do it.

Right.

Because if you do it, it will ruin everything. Not to speak in generalities, but it will ruin everything. And the reason is you can't operate as a half person in a relationship. And that's why if you're— if your element coincides with the relationship, right? Like if you both love to play Halo, Power to it, do it all day long if you can. But if it doesn't, don't stop doing it or obsessively try to interest the other person in it. Just keep doing it and they'll still appreciate and, and benefit from you being in that element.

And this is one of the things that is so hard about this frame idea is because it gets tested. And hear me, fellas, even me on my level I don't mean that to sound the way it sounded.

I was like, where is it, Robert? I want to see it. What level is it? Where am I in relationship to this? What level is it? I was immediately like, well, where, how can we compare and contrast, Robert? I need to know where it is. Sorry to tease you a little bit, but it was great. Even on your level though, even on your level, knowing what you know, it's hard not to collapse the frame is what you were saying.

Yes, exactly. That is the number one thing that is still just as— I need to be just as aware of more than anything. Like, most things are just, you know, I've internalized. And that's what happens. You know you got something because you've internalized it. When you internalize something, you stop thinking about it. Right.

It's just second nature.

It's just second nature, right? And so, but this frame, if there's— because women will do this 90% of the time that women test your frame, they're doing it, you know, subconsciously.

Right. And also, like, doing relationship things can do this too. Like, you stop, you know, going to your yoga class because you suddenly are having date night on that— at that time. Like, your, your life can intrude upon the frame.

Right. And there's— this is why it is so exhausting for a lot of men. This is where the idealism of men gets— comes in, because like I've said before, Our idealism leads us to believe that you're the one place we can go and not have to have a fuck. And a lot of guys get really upset and hurt and messed up because they don't understand that you are different, that your nature, you can love just as strongly as we can love, but it's different. It comes from a different place, right?

It is.

So a part of that breaking of the idealism is the idea that you can let off the gas with her, because that's how we are with our friends. With our guy friends, we relax, right?

Right. Well, and the female equivalent is just like wearing whatever and, you know, not caring about your— like having your Sunday morning look be your look all the time, gaining a lot of weight, um, letting yourself go essentially. And men can let themselves go too, but it's a little bit different as far as offense taken from the opposite sex.

We both genders have kind of this Reality shock when we run into this kind of thing.

Right. We all want somebody to love us no matter what. We want somebody to love us if we are unemployed and on the couch and having our Sunday morning look all the time. That is— I don't want to say it's impossible, but the hard part about it is it kills chemistry. It just kills chemistry. It just kills your sexual relationship and then suddenly you're buddies. And then you're having this brother and sister thing and you don't understand why. So we don't want it to be like that for you. So in order for it not to be like that, you're going to have to do certain things.

Yes. And Elizabeth said that the nice way, but you're like— because she loves you. You're lucky with her. She genuinely loves you.

Yeah, I do. And I used to be like a misanthrope. I used to not like people at all. And I've realized that that's the opposite way I wanted to be.

But, but nah, fam, I'm gonna tell you straight up, you will, you will have to hold it consistent throughout.

That's why you have to pick something you like.

Right. This is why frame is so important that you be authentic for what's true. Because guys get upset about this when it's not. And so it does feel like work every day because you're working to have to keep up a frame that's not true for you. That's not authentic.

Yeah, you're just living a lie and you wonder why you're not happy. Right.

And so of course that's exhausting. Of course that's got you not feel happy, just drowned out by all the responsibilities that just come with just living life, right? Because now you kind of add on the fact you can't even come home and just relax because you misrepresented yourself.

Exactly. And you have to pretend to like, you know, I don't know, UFC if you hate it, or whatever you're— whatever it is. And also, and also the inauthenticity life that comes along with just not ever feeling like you fit in?

Oh God. And that's— if there's any— if there's misery, that would be at the top of the list because there's nothing— this is why so many of us like being alone, because being alone is when we can finally be ourselves. We don't have to put on—

It's a nice place.

It's a nice place. You can let it out. You know, you can just— you can eat chips in your bed how you want to. You can eat how you want to. can do, watch what you want, because that's the only time you feel safe. Let it be what it is.

Well, and also it is a PR problem, you know. Being like happier than can be single just doesn't have— you know, people don't really believe it. Like, they don't actually, you know, grasp that's possible a lot of the time. Right.

That's the problem with just being somewhat of a teacher in general. When you have that teaching spirit, one of the things, the main thing you're going to come up against is people just not believing it. Because most teachers start out thinking the problem is always in the end If you just get the right information, this is not—

Yeah, the deeper you dig, it's there somewhere. The answers have to be here. All I have to do is dig. I think I, I fall for this constantly. I'm like, wait a minute, you don't need more books. You don't need more books. You need confidence. Right.

That's that transition that has to happen. And that's how— because you've— once you learn that within yourself, they're like, okay, now you have to impart that into the people trust or who are listening to, who are following you or whatever. Right. But, uh, so when you're told— again, I should know this, but I'll go back to, um, I'm talking about help me personally frame is the number one thing that—

Oh yeah, that not collapsing it. Not collapsing it.

Me too.

Yeah, I agree with you. Let's, let's definitely go back to that because I think, I think talking about in a personal way is important and not just being like, yes, this is what you need to do because this is hard for me.

Oh, yes. I mean, like I said, as a man dealing with women, this is the number one. I think I told Elizabeth this last week. I don't know if I said this on air last week, but I know I told— I was talking to Elizabeth this week because this is something that I realized. Her being able to feel love and express love feeling is a result of her feeling safe.

Yes.

I know Elizabeth has talked about how important safety is.

Well, and We can't respect you if we can't trust you. Right.

And so her— that frame being tested falls in line with this principle because it needs to consistently be tested because that's what has her trust you. She needs to trust that what she is getting from you is really you, is really something that she can trust, she could put weight on, she can put a baby on, she can put her heart on, she could put her feelings, you know what I mean? So this is something why it's It's that stability, it's that foundation. So when you're talking about frame being able to build your house, that foundation needs to be solid, right?

Yes.

If an inspector comes in and you got cracks in your wall, they won't, you know, that's all right, the house can remain. But if there's a crack in that foundation, it's out. They're gonna shut it down. No one's gonna be able to live there. They're gonna, they're gonna, you know, bulldoze it because that foundation is everything.

Well, and it's being sloppy with your work. So a lot of times when men relax, what they do is they become a little more lax with their agreements. And, and this frustrates women to no end, because if we can't count on you to come through for us, which is the true masculine coming through for the feminine, then we have to go into our masculine to get that work done. And you will not like the results of that. We get very brittle, we get hard. We start achieving. And generally, that's unattractive to you. But the hard part about it is that it starts when you become unrespectable to us, when you don't follow through on your word specifically. So, you know, as long as you come through on your word, whether you see— the thing is just not to make promises that you can't keep. If you never make the promise, and I'm not saying never commit to anybody or never I'm saying, you know, under-promise and over-deliver would be a better strategy. Do not over-promise and under-deliver to a woman because she'll learn that she can't trust your frame, and then she will go around you and get her needs met another way, and you're not gonna like it regardless of how she— I'm not talking about anything lewd or anything. I'm talking she's gonna call a plumber when you do that for a living. You're gonna hate that. All right.

And that's all guys and guys get livid when that type of thing happens, right? When— because that's how we see that happen all the time.

Well, and from the other side of the conversation, here's what happens. I asked him, I asked him, I asked him, he said he would, I asked him, it's been 3 months, I asked him. And so one thing that you can do, win a lot. So speed, men, speed, just do it faster.

Like, just do it as soon as you commit to it.

Do it as fast as you possibly can. Put it on your schedule. Tell— I don't care. Make a calendar. Tell her when it's going to be. Because if you do that, then she knows what to expect from you. And you just eliminate a lot of the part where there's waiting and confusion about whether you're going to really follow through. Because part of feminine mistrusting the masculine is that we aren't always certain of your timing. So it can feel like we're not actually getting our needs met when you're actually working on it. So if you just communicate Like what your plan is, that can get you a really long way.

And that's the thing, because we tend to hide our strategies and our plans, right? That's what's natural for us, because you don't tell anybody your plan or your strategy because that means it could be used against you, right?

Well, and also from— it's also construed as being asked for— is asking for advice too. Like, and if you're not actually asking for advice, like you don't share the strategy unless you're actually asking or requesting advice or input on the strategy. And so another reason I think is that there isn't necessarily like any discussion that you want to have about why it's Thursday instead of Friday. Like you just want to do it and get it done because there's not— like you don't need help with scheduling it. But that's why it's hard sometimes when you're dealing with people that don't understand these principles to communicate with them because they'll communicate back that what you're doing is wrong.

And guys, again, and guys know exactly what this is. I mean, this is where nagging comes in. This is the one.

Oh yeah, this is the root of nagging. Killing nagging for you, I mean, I kill it from my end. I work on the respect aspect of it and I work on trying to draw out what actually we need from you in order for you to stay respectful. That's what I do on the women's side. On the male side, if you just communicate what your plans are in a very definite way that doesn't sound like you're confused, then we can work with that.

So, and this brings up another important point, I think, as well, because when you're talking about what makes relationships work between men and women, polarity.

Yes.

Not— I mean, you hear all this fluff stuff when you hear people talk about, you know, just communicate and all that kind of stuff.

Just communicate. Yes. I'm writing a piece in my masterclass about this right now. Today I was writing about this, like, why just communicate is bad advice.

Because all that we're talking about right here is rooted in polarity.

Yes.

We're talking about frame. We're talking about holding your masculine polarity because as we talked about many times as well, chemistry, chemistry is a result of polarity, right? And Elizabeth is a, uh, this is a very important part or important aspect of relationships to her. She really cares about the feminine and masculine energies and polarity.

Everyone I know has to listen to this. It's just part of, part of what you have to experience when you experience me.

Well, it's, it's one of those things where I didn't really see how— I couldn't put a name to why I saw certain things work and certain things not work. But once I started learning about polarity and the energies, I was like, oh, you know, when you collapse your frame, you're collapsing the polarity.

You are. You're, you're going into the opposite energy source in a, in a way that's unattractive to the people you're trying to attract. Right.

And this is why holding frame can— is gonna be so hard for you. Because guys, one, cuz guys naturally have a scarcity mindset when it comes— and this is something that hurts us tremendously because—

Well, and there only was one egg in biology. You know, there weren't a million eggs. So it kind of makes sense that you're like this.

Right. And there's, like I said, there's reasons, but this is something where, again, you're gonna have to think about it. This is something that's gonna have the intention. Uh, because the scarcity mindset means that when it comes to the option of you pleasing her or holding to what is true for you, that is where this becomes a struggle. This is not a struggle to hold your frame when everything's going. Where guys lose it is those moments where holding your frame could risk losing, right? Or that's the way it feels when you're in those moments.

Well, and standards are not for the good times.

No, exactly. Absolutely. This is why anything is difficult. It's not difficult during the good times. It's difficult— it's not courage when courage has to—

Yeah, the sun is shining, everything's perfect. You don't have a train rushing at you. No, I mean, the reason to have standards is to rely upon them when things aren't going well. So you have a baseline where you're not going to start acting desperate because those things are just non-negotiables.

Oh God, I'm telling you, I've lost women that I did not want to lose because of this.

Right.

I mean, it's— and this is where the rubber meets the road. This, this is the thing you're gonna have to overcome. And I'm telling you, you're going to have to overcome it. Now, good thing about frame is that when you keep proving it to women, they naturally stop testing you. Right.

We trust you. Yeah, then we know what to expect from you. And then You can then play outside of the lines a little bit, but not like you just stop following through on your agreements.

No, but I've also seen it. It'll pop up again when you have weak moments, which gets a lot of guys thrown off as well, because we'll get really mad about this because it seems almost heartless in the moment.

And like betrayal. Yeah.

And betrayal and just a shock and awe type of a thing. Uh, this is why a lot of times you will hear after guys go through a divorce, and like I've said before, what is the most common trope is they'll start naming off all of the things that they— the services they've rendered and not understand why that didn't translate into loyalty or what they believe should have been loyalty or, or whatever, right? The case may be, again, not understanding that you're dealing with a different person. You're dealing with a human being, but you're dealing with, you know, a different person, a different makeup.

Well, and you know, a lot of times during like life trials, this will happen. So the guy will lose his job and then the woman will go move home with her parents or something.

Exactly.

And it is completely demoralizing and I know how upsetting that would be. You know, I'm not trying to make light of it, but there is another aspect of masculine energy that like you aren't even attractive to you in that case. Like, you know, like, if it— like, the equivalent, you know, for a male man losing his job is like a woman losing all of her hair. Like, you want to go hide in a hole. And so the fact that the other person has left you alone for a little while to sort things out isn't always a bad thing. But you cannot construe it as like they needed to be loyal to you no matter what, because they're not your mom.

She's not. And that's the biggest thing. We have to separate that. And it's hard because it's so natural.

Well, you don't get an erection for your Mom, it's a good reason to start there.

You know, that's a great— it's a great—

you know, if you want unconditional love, I'm really sorry, but that's not the way that this works.

And it's funny because I actually saw a perfect example of a frame test type of an issue, how it actually shows up real life. I was watching Criminal Minds.

You know, I haven't seen that show, but I've heard good things about it.

Yeah, I always liked that, like, watching. And it was during this episode, the one of the guys who was like a part of the team that catches bad guys and all that Uh, he, he's married and he has like a newborn kid, and his job obviously takes him away from home a lot. He's dealing with all the nasty stuff about, you know, crazy killings and all that kind of stuff. His wife was constantly, you know, telling him like, you need to be home more, you need to be, you know, essentially you need to stop what you're doing and do something that allows you to be home with us more and more, you know, quote-unquote normal.

Okay.

You saw this battle that he was having Because his job, I mean, this guy was perfect for his job. Really good at his job. You could tell this he is. But on the other hand, he had his wife, you know, clearly not happy that his job was requiring, was requiring of. And so he was in— this is the dilemma of frame. See, when you talk about frame, you talk about being— why it's tough to hold it, it's because of these type of situations. There's one thing to hold your frame and say you're going to keep your boundaries and all that. But what happens when, I don't know, whoever's, whatever's top celebrity woman you have in your mind. What if she tested?

Right. Who are you then?

Who are you then? What happens when you had— you found your job and you found your— but your wife, you know, your newborn kid, and she's there and she's unhappy and she's, you know, pretty much telling you that you need to stop doing what you're doing, anything else that allows you to— see, this is the struggle. This is where, you know, you're gonna lose it. And it's not so much that it's not understandable, But this is where you're going to be tested. And these are the— whatever you do in those situations are going to determine kind of where, where you are. Because it wasn't like the guy was doing what he was doing, started doing what he was doing when he met her.

Yeah, that's another problem too, is that, you know, lives change. You know, you can't expect that somebody is going to work the same job for your entire duration of your relationship.

Exactly. And so these are the type of things that are going to come up. Wherever stage you are, even talking about the dating stage or whatever. But when I say the hardest thing or the most vigilant thing I have to be aware of, that this is what I— because there's constantly these type of conundrums that will pop up from time to time that will force you to have to make a decision.

Yeah. And well, and one point I wanted to make about that real quick, I'm sorry to interrupt you, is that, you know, there's a lot of— a lot of times people will ignore those. You know, this woman complained and she mentioned that This was bothering her. A lot of times when the complaining stops is when you have to really worry. And you know that you haven't solved the problem. Like, if the problem hasn't changed, she isn't suddenly okay with you doing this. She has just given up on asking for something different. And it's really, really common that people will ignore somebody else. I mean, they'll nag for a long time, then we give up on nagging after a while. And then they'll think like, oh, okay, it's solved. And And I think the best thing to do in that case, rather than just collapsing your frame and like doing something entirely different, is to try to find a way to compromise. Like you find a way to work with her rather than saying, this is my frame, this is it. Because if you don't, you know, you have to understand that people's perceptions and everything are valid. And, you know, it can be really tempting to collapse and it can be tempting to hold too rigidly as well.

That's the art of it. That's the dance. That's the— that's when you take knowledge and turn it into wisdom.

And it's about like checking in too. Like, did this improve? Or have they just given up on this issue? You know, and you can feel right away whether you succeed. You know, if you were to ask about the issue, which no man wants to ask about the issue, like you guys are not dying to get more feedback about the issue, right? But if you said to your woman, 6 months down the road after she stopped complaining, because we complain for a time and then we get quiet. And that is dangerous territory. Like, this is how you get divorced and you don't know what happened, is that you ignored this. So, you know, if you ask her like, you know, a couple of months ago you were saying that we aren't getting enough time together. Where do you think we are on that? And then you re-download the argument and everybody knows what I'm talking about, where like, then you get to have the entire talk that you thought was over. That means that you have not solved the problem.

And this is— it's hard for guys to have to go down this route.

Oh, nobody wants to do this. I'm not. Yeah, absolutely.

It's because a lot of times we feel so— this is how we feel betrayed. This is how we feel like we were almost kind of tricked into a situation. Because what ended up happening is the guy came home one day from work Yeah, it happens all—

it's called walkaway wife syndrome. It happens all the time.

And this is how a lot of guys will— guys go to other— this is what they're so baffled because what they say is exactly what I was thinking instinctively when I was watching this happen. Because my instinctive reaction was he was doing this when you met him, right? And so what changed? Now, realistically, what changed is that you had a child.

Well, and that's a pretty big deal.

And that's a big deal. But again, in the, in the emotion, the moment of the situation, it's almost like I signed— this is where guys get caught up. Because like, what's that saying? That guys get married thinking women will never change.

Yes. And women get married hoping that they will.

Exactly. And this is where that comes in. Because it was one of those moments where you could tell he was like shell-shocked because he didn't know He's— he thought this is what you— you know, he did— in his mind, nothing has changed in terms of who he was, right?

Right. And so therefore, like, because in his mind he loves her for who she is, so what has changed? She didn't change, you know. And, and she's like, well, the circumstances aren't working. I'm not feeling loved because that's how it works.

Exactly. You can tell that's what was coming. She did not feel loved. She did not feel like she had a family. She did not have her Her husband, and he was just, you know, I mean, he wasn't like angry, like he was lashing out or anything like that, but you could tell he just in a position where like, I, I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe that you're gonna— like, you were just— you walked away. You took my son and you left. And nothing has changed in his head, you know, as far as, you know, he is concerned. Like, he now— he does not feel loved because he thinks that, you know, he doesn't understand what happened. He doesn't understand why How she could do something like that. And that's the number one thing you'll hear from guys. How could she do something? Because the way we love is that the circumstance changing has nothing to do with you.

Which is great for if you're a woman, by the way. Like, if you're listening and you're a woman, this is great news because they— men are reliable. They will still love you if you make mistakes and you act awful. They will still love you. Women need input. We require action in order to continue to love you.

And this is where guys lose it because they learn what you've learned. But a lot of times we learn what you just said, but we learn it from angry men.

Yeah, that's unfortunate because, you know, and also you learned that like about unconditional love from your mother. So it's really like, it makes sense that you'd be confused. Because you're, you know, the ideal is that you'll be loved no matter what, and you're just wonderful anyway. And you You can get really close. And so we don't mean to make it like this is it, you know, you're, you're doomed, but you have to listen to those complaints about time and the energy you're putting into the relationship because you can't think about it like it's solved. You have to think about maintaining a relationship with a woman like you are putting gas into a gas tank, not that you are doing maintenance on the engine. You are putting gas into the— like you need gas just to keep going. That's how it is.

And this is where we come full circle in terms of why, like, Elizabeth was being nice about it when she said it. But I need to be more forceful for you guys because this is a reality that you're either going to have to accept or go MGTOW because you are not going to go around this principle. And a lot of guys, they lose something when they learn, when they really learn this. A lot of guys learn this and they probably can't even verbalize it like we are right now. Right, but they have this experience with and they see that response and they see that love that is that is conditional and they like said it's confusing don't know are so perplexed and blindsided by this and are you talk about the red pill this is what a lot of red pill guys are talking about they're talking the red pill as in taking that eye-opening pill of the fact. That you are not going to be loved the way she loves you. And guys don't— they have a hard time coming to terms with this. This is the breaking of our Disney scene that we talked about. Right.

Yeah.

But it is, it is a good, good thing if you know how to apply it, right? When we understand each other's natures, then it's not about manipulating, Because what a lot of people will do is that they'll learn about men and women and they'll try to weaponize. Right.

Well, and that's kind of like the beginning phase, I have to admit.

Right. It is. It is. You got to go through it. I mean, it's just, you know.

Well, because you're like, you're drunk with power at that point. Yeah.

You got the keys to the kingdom. You're a kid with a Ferrari. That's what a Ferrari is good, but it's not good at sex. So when you understand that you will always have to be, you'll make sure that you choose right.

And it can look like that you continue to make effort. Because the other thing too is that, you know, women will work with you. It's not like we just shut down the minute that bad stuff happens, but we watch you. And if we notice that you can't really maintain our respect, we're going to treat you like crap. And we're not going to be doing it because we mean to, but it happens. And I'm not saying it's okay. Like, let me just preface this by saying it's not okay. To be disrespectful. But what, what happens when we lose respect for you is that we lose our lady boner. Like, we do not— we have a hard time because we now feel like we have to mother you. So we can no longer feel sexually attracted to you when we have to take care of you. And that can be a hard pill to swallow when, you know, problems happen and I get like regular life occurs. But you have to do everything you can to maintain respectfulness. You know, respectability. Because if you— even if you lose your job, you can maintain respectability to a woman. And the way that you do it is that you are very clear that you still have goals, and then you don't act broken and give up, because then you're basically going more into a mysterious, like, we don't know what to expect from him kind of a place, which is not respectable for us. We can't rely upon that. But if you're like, all right, you know, I'm taking this challenge, like, It, you know, this is part of life and it'll be okay. And let me just go out and work really hard at making it work for myself. We can maintain respect for you. And so it— how you look at the situations in your life have a lot to do with how a woman is gonna react to you. You know, if you look at it like, this is the end of the world, I'm not gonna make it, I'm not, you know, this is it, like, I— it's curtains and you're gonna leave me, and then you vocalize that, we probably will. Like you're not going to have a great time maintaining a relationship under those circumstances. But if you look at it like a challenge, and then you make that part of your mission, and you treat it like the video game that is our lives anyway, then you'll probably succeed at keeping a woman's attention.

I know I can feel the fellas. I know exactly what y'all are thinking.

What is it?

Because when we hear that, it's just like, f. You know, that is— that's our response to F that.

Because it's so similar to our response when we hear like, okay, you're gonna have to lose 100 pounds, right? Exactly. Now like, oh great, thanks so much, truth teller. You know, wonderful.

Exactly. Nice job. So because this is where we have to inevitably end up at, we can only give you full of sugar. We can only give you chicken nuggets for so long.

And now You got to get some vegetables because if we want to tell you just to communicate, we wouldn't have talked as long. Absolutely. We would have, we would have had one podcast, you know, 2 years ago, and we would never speak again. And we would just, we'd be like, yeah, they're toxic, dump them. No, we're trying to help you work with it. And this is how you do it, even though it sucks.

Exactly. It does. It sucks for both of us. It sucks. You know, we're talking about it does, because like Elizabeth just said, 80% of your problem, you know, a lot of times you'll hear a woman talking about her And then mine, I'm saying, you just gotta lose, you know, 25, 50 pounds, you'll be straight. Deal with 90% of the things you talking about.

And the thing about it is, is it's just like me being like, put your shit in a sack and get after the job department.

Exactly. You know, just get your stuff together. It's like, you're not gonna love me for who I am? It's like—

Well, yeah, but I'm gonna do it from across town.

All right, you get right. And again, it's—

But it's also about how everybody acts when they're not at their best, including— I mean, men, women, you know, dogs, animals, you know. Nobody acts like a star when they are ego-hurting. Like, you know, if you're feeling a lot of shame and guilt and pain, you are not physically attractive to anybody. Like, right, right, you know. And you don't dress like it, you don't act like it, you know, you don't put out any confidence. And so You generally, in times like that, people do the best they can to stay with you and they do the best they can to work with the relationship, but it's natural for people to shrink away and it sucks, but that's the reality.

That's the reality. Nature is cruel, man. It's because it has to be.

Well, we wouldn't breed if not. We don't want bad puppy mill kids.

You don't— listen, you don't get from 1 to 8 billion people because of flowers and sunshine, right? It just—

Not by themselves.

It doesn't work that way. And so there's elements to us that, yes, there is going to be a responsibility on you. And we're fighting that a lot because it's— there's nothing like a truthful, uh, a truth that is just un— Desirable to say, you know what I'm saying?

Well, and one that, you know, the other problem that I think we come to with this talk is making people feel like they have to be perfect before they actually are attractive to the other, you know, side. And with the talk that I gave that was very demotivational just now, the point of it was actually that you have more control than you think, you know. Oh, God, that's important. Like, control in masculine world is excellent. Like, so I've said good things. It just doesn't sound great.

Well, because we, we like, for the, for the guys, this is where it's most for us. The issue is taking energy that is our, we're already implementing somewhere and just transferring that to something else. That's all you can really do with energy. Well, Einstein says you can't create it or destroy it. It can only be transferred. Right. And so—

Well, don't pick people that are so energetically sapping that you need to think about it like you don't have anything to offer with them. You know?

Let's think about right people. Right people give back to you.

Yes.

That's one of the biggest ways, you know, you found the right person. I'm not even talking about them giving back to you intentionally. It's just that being in their presence gives to you. You don't feel drained after you've dealing with them.

Yes. Well, one of the— like, a great example of that is our talks. Like, the last couple of times, for everybody who's listening, Robert and I have gone over Quite a bit of time just discussing these issues after we get off the call. I've had a late night and I never feel exhausted and worn out from it. I might be tired, but that's different.

Sure.

Those kind of people are the ones that you want to invite into your life because if you are constantly having to be on and then you feel like you're not appreciated, that's where you end up hating your life. It's not when you chose correctly, and then you're tired because you had 3 kids together, you know. So don't pick people out. Like, don't go in like, well, it's fine, like, they kind of— they're kind of annoying, but that's all right. Like, this is a time to maintain your frame and just say like, well, you know, this is really great, I enjoyed your company, but, um, you actually tire me out, and that's a bad thing. Like, I just can't maintain this.

And this is why, like Elizabeth just said, and I've always said, this is the greatest news I ever got, was realizing how much was in my control. Because I was trying to— about to say was what guys tend to do is what they're wanting to learn game so they can go out in their lives and see a really hot girl and have some tool to get that really hot girl, right?

Right.

That's the idea of control that we initially have, but that's the— that's a false control. Right? That's a false idea to think that someone has a magic pill that you can just go out hunting and any, you know, when you want, there's something you could— some magic you can do to get this person to want you, and that's your sense of control. That's not— that's, that's a hustler's— that's what hustlers do. Hustlers will feed you, all right? Because that's what you want to hear. But what actual control is, is control over your own decisions and the fact that That life will— or biology, nature, and nurture both reward when you better you. The world and people respond to that, right?

Yeah, that's very true.

And so this is why it's taking that control energy that you're trying to implement on other people and saying, if I want a better quality of person, I have to become a better quality of person, instead of thinking that I can just be whatever I am and you can give me some magic wand and I can You know, game some whatever hot girl to trick her evolutionary system to make it seem like I'm an alpha male, right? So it will give her chemistry, attracted to me. No, if you want whatever it is that you're wanting, you have to become that first so that it is authentic, so that you're not having to game your wife or your girlfriend for the rest of your relationship.

Right.

For the rest of your life.

And this is how you can get more comfortable, because you picked correctly.

Because you picked correct. The only way you can pick correctly is, is that you build your house to look like you. So the right woman who is attracted to that style of house says, I, I like a house with 52 bathrooms.

Yeah, exactly. Like, wow, he's big on the plumbing.

You'd be surprised, because people are People are so terrified that whatever their quirks are, whatever their— there's people who dress up in bunny costumes, who hang out and find wives who do bunny costumes, you know, who are furries.

There's a lid for every pot.

There's a lid for every pot, every single one. There's a person who, like, I love BDSM, I love to be a Dom, and there's a sub waiting for you, just so excited that your particular brand of domination is presented. You, you should see it. Oh my God, the greatest experience I ever had is seeing 2 weird people find each other. Like, you have— I wish everybody could have that experience. When you see 2 people with some weird quirk, but they find someone who's just so fascinated by that weird quirk, and they just like—

It's the best.

It's the best. It's in heaven. It'll make even my, like, stoic self, like, smile, because I'm like, that is That is great.

I love it. That's my favorite too.

That's my favorite too. But you got to build your house, fellas. Let it look like you. Plant your flag.

Please, we want it to be like you. We don't want it to be like people pleaser central where we come in the foyer and then you ask us where we want to go to dinner.

Right.

Do not tire me out by having me make all the decisions. Just know what it is.

No way.

Is it a funhouse? Where are we? Are we in a mansion? Is it a decrepit, broke-down shanty? What is it?

Because when you are able to do that, if the country house is for you, you're going to get a girl who wants to go mudding. You know what I mean? If you need the crisp, pristine china and gold-plated windows, I mean, whatever it is, but you're going to have to have the integrity. The integrity. See, this is where character comes into play with this, because this is what character is. When you say someone has good character, what you're really saying is that they are consistent.

Yeah, and we trust consistent people. You trust, you know, even if they're crazy, we trust that they are crazy consistently, right?

What is the— plug this into the whole bad boy argument. Why is the bad boy so attractive? Because Because you know what it is, whatever it is.

Yeah, he's never pretended anything else.

He's never pretended. He's only called you 1 o'clock in the morning.

And you answered the call. So you chose to engage.

Right. He didn't try to be your friend for 3 months and then kind of backdoor you like, oh, hi, you know, accidentally send you a dick pic.

Because then you think he's a nut job. Like, that's the difference. Like, that's how you get that perception. If you're consistently, truly whatever you are, then we know what we can count on. We can decide whether we like flavor or not. You might be devastated when you find out we don't like that flavor, but we wouldn't like you better if you faked being whatever it is that you think we like. We just don't like you. Go away. Pick a different person.

That is the reality we all have to come to.

I'm too late. Like, it's safe— like, it's much safer to say to yourself, like, okay, I was me. Like, I was absolutely at my best. I did the best I could, and let the chips fall where they may, than it is to say, well, if I had just pretzel twisted myself into somebody else, perhaps it would have worked out. That's the wrong way to think.

It's a wrong way to think. It never works. It just— it'll waste your— you'll waste So much time and energy and feelings and money and everything trying to live life like that. It just will— it'll zap you of all your strength. You will become jaded and bitter, all of that.

You're going to write essays on Reddit dead bedrooms. It's going to be really sad for you and we're going to hate that. You're going to come to us and be like, well, why does my life suck and what can I do about it? about that, and it's gonna be like a big deconstruction process where if at the beginning you had just simply admitted you hate oatmeal, it would be better.

Exactly. This is why the, the midlife crisis man gets so made fun of kind of in our culture.

Yeah, that's a good point.

You know, because what's happening all of a sudden, he's doing all of these new and crazy different things. No, he's just doing what he's always wanted to do. He's doing what was true for him all along. He finally just got to a breaking point, and everyone around him is shocked, like, why is Dad You know, buying a new Corvette? Why is he getting his ears pierced? Why is he doing all these things? Because that was him all along, right?

And he looks ridiculous, and we disrespect that behavior. And the reason we disrespect it is because he's inconsistent. He, he should have got the ear piercing or whatever, became a bodybuilder, whatever he did.

And this is where, when most guys come for help, they come after this type of— even if they're 20 years old, they have this moment Of breakdown because they're the— a woman broke their fallacy.

Yeah, that's true. And they have to come to terms with the fact that they are now like pretzel twisted into a hiker and they hate it.

Exactly. And so they have all these things in their house they don't want. They're going to these different— they've done all these things they never wanted to do. Again, disclaimer, we're not talking about compromise when it comes to reasonable things.

Right. Well, and there's a great scene in Along Came Polly. about this where Ben Stiller has all these throw pillows on his bed and it's like a ridiculous number of throw pillows. Every night they put the throw pillows up, they take them off and then the next morning they put them on. He finally snaps and he's like, I hate all of these. It's similar. Your life just— when you don't just make a stand about the little things, sometimes they just overtake you.

This is where we have to break our own Disney fantasy or our own Disney Kind of, I guess, fantasy thing that we've been taught was that we've been taught to be pleasers.

Yeah.

And pleasing is probably one of the most, like, top 3 unattractive behaviors you could ever express with a woman. And it goes back into the foundation of it being inauthentic, inconsistent. Like Elizabeth said, they, you know, women know when certain things we're doing that we're not completely thrilled about, but we're doing it for her, you know. And there's certain things that are reasonable. If it's her birthday and she wants to go to a Broadway play, and, you know, go to the Broadway play, you know. That doesn't make you a beta.

Do romantic stuff anyway. Just don't pretend that, like, you just love everything she— like, don't become a chameleon, right?

Don't try to act like this is something else, because that's what happens. That's what the good guy does. See, that's—

or the nice guy. The nice guy. Nice guy. Thank Thank you.

That's what the nice guys— because the nice guy, uh, like I told that story a couple weeks ago about the nice guy that, you know, took—

Oh yeah.

Went to, uh, this girl. One of my friends was dating this girl and she, you know, she had a nice guy friend and he wasn't trying to go to her family's house for Thanksgiving, right? Because it was not something he would— he did it at first but had a bad experience because the way her family was with kind of politics and was just like, I I just don't want to put myself in that position again. Right. That's just not, no, I'm not going to do that. Right. He had to hold that frame. Right. And that was tough because naturally every guy is going to be like, well, you know, not going to your girlfriend's family dinner is a kind of a dick move.

Well, and it's human, you know, to want to make our people happy and, you know, but he's not having it. So he doesn't go.

Yeah. He wasn't having it. He wouldn't go because again, it came to the fact that it, it, it got to a point where now it was threatening his, what was true for And so he had to make a decision, made a decision in that situation, right?

Right.

And so, okay, she goes, but the nice guy goes. And of course he's, you know, just talking mess, you know, down. I would never do anything like that. All that kind of because of the fallacy of being pleasing, thinking that somehow because what is happening in the mind of the nice guy when he's doing this, what he thinks is actually happening in her.

And he thinks he's earning her love.

Right. He's— it's transactional.

Right. And she's just like, well, that's great that he wanted to come with me. Like, so would my best girlfriend.

Right, exactly. Because you are her girlfriend. Yeah, I heard a guy have 2— there's only 2 roles. You're a girlfriend or a babe. That's the only 2 roles, I guess.

But that can be— that can be in our Can Men and Women Be Friends episode.

Yeah, there we go.

The long-awaited Can Women— because I know we disagree about that. But anyway, either way, he— so he goes anyway. So he goes to Thanksgiving. He goes to Thanksgiving.

You know, he goes there, spends the time, and then gets a call for— you know, she gets a call from, you know, the actual boyfriend. And they're talking a little bit, and he pretty much asked to come to where we were, or to come pick her up from where we were to go wherever they were gonna go. And so she does that. She leaves her parents' house, goes, comes here, picks up, you know, picks up her boyfriend, and they leave. But when she came to pick up, she told us about how what's-his-name was there and that You know, I remember asking her like, well, where is he? And she's like, he's still at my parents' house. I just called him an Uber home. And I just was— we were just— we started dying. Like, her face, like, she wasn't like then thinking it was mean.

Confusion.

Yeah, she was just so oblivious to it, you know?

Didn't get it.

That's what was so funny to us, you know, because we were just like, we all understand what the situation is. And she didn't think nothing of it. They picked up and left. And I remember just thinking about what it must— how In that position. You being in that position is purely a result of you not understanding the things that we're talking about tonight. All right. And what we've talked about, really what Elizabeth and I talk about every night. Every night. Yeah. Every week. But we just need to change your thought process because the guy wasn't a bad guy. You know, it wasn't—

No. You know, it wasn't that the guy was sitting there like he deserved to be, you know, like No, and it, you know, it would be also rude to leave your best girlfriend at your parents' Thanksgiving too.

Right, exactly.

You know, it is a kind of a rude thing to do, but if you have an understanding with your best girlfriend, that's one thing. If you, you know, but, but the whole thing about it is, is you just can't earn love like that. You just can't, you know, put up enough merit badges in order to finally be worthy.

You— he did not plant his flag. He did not say, this is where I stand. And was okay.

Take it or leave it.

Take it.

Be a wise choice.

Take it or leave it. And she left it, and he should have been okay, cool, wish you the best, and moved on to the next, you know. And it's like, okay, you know, raise your flag back up and, you know, see.

You know what's interesting about that moment? And I do not want to give people on the call hope. I do not. Not in this case. But, but here's my thought about this. It's common that that is a very attractive behavior. Like saying no in that case and finally being like, you know what, no, like this is not up to my standard. Like, I don't like the way you're treating me. I'm done. Or, you know, call me when you want me. You'd be surprised how many people actually call.

No, you gave it— you get Godspeed.

I know, I know, I know that was dangerous. And so please, that is not— do not use that as a life strategy. But just understand That should be even more motivation to not collapse your frame.

Please. That is, again, it goes back to you start talking about, you know, girls love confidence and women love, you know, all these, you know, those. Yes. But what does that actually look like? Because guys will take that and they'll think that means, you know, just like guys like the Marlboro Man or something. Exactly. When they hear guys say that men love women, love bad boys, they think That means start being an asshole.

Oh no, no. And that's a totally nice guy misperception to be like, well, you got jerked, so I'm gonna act like a jerk. No, what we want is for you to be true to who you are.

It's not true. Like, saying no when it's authentic for you to say no. Just like my friend, when he said no about going to his girlfriend's parents, he wasn't trying to be an asshole. He wasn't— he didn't think, oh, girls love assholes, gonna say no and be a dick to her. Make— no, it was just—

No more Thanksgivings, I'm done. Right.

It was just the situation presented itself. He looked at it, made a decision like, no, this doesn't fit me, you know, I'm not putting myself in that position.

And that's hot. She went to go see him afterwards, everybody.

No, she, she came to pick him up.

Yeah, like, just look at the behavior of the other guy. The other guy— I mean, we, you know, we, we're on our nice guy here, but the other guy Gets everything he wants and he doesn't have to go to Thanksgiving.

And he doesn't. He got to hang out with us watching football. You know, we were just laughing and joking, you know, and when she, you know, had the time to get out of school time, she was there. She was angry at first, but she wasn't— she was just angry because she wanted to spend the holiday with her boyfriend.

And humans want what they want, but actually people get over it relatively quick.

Oh yeah, because ultimately the nice guy thinks like, oh yeah, there's a crack in the dam. It's like, no, it doesn't. She can trust him, right? She could trust him even in that moment. She didn't like, you know, what the behavior initially, but even on a subconscious level, women can trust that. So yeah, she called him an asshole, right?

But that doesn't mean she doesn't love him.

Does not mean she doesn't, because you cannot— love is not transactional. And this is why you keep, you know, every time we said a guy gets a Divorce, keeps rattling off all the things he did like that. Somehow that was supposed to pay, you know, come to a lump sum that was worth her love. How much are you— how much is a woman's love worth? Yeah, I mean, what do you— what dollar sign? Because that's how— when you— you know what, next show we can talk about transactional versus validation.

I like it. I think we should, because we definitely should. Yeah, because it also hits to the heart of when people say to them, you know, when they have this, this idea that they don't measure up and they have to put out, you know, it's really hard to distinguish the, you know, the difference between transactional relationships and effort, and her still loving you. I mean, we're saying a lot of things about like, okay, you have to keep doing stuff, you need more effort. It's like in the car. Well, that sounds like you're earning merit badges. And so I think it's definitely a good topic.

Because you're right, you can mistake that for us thinking that you essentially should keep doing what the nice guys is doing. But there's a difference between that element being there, right? When a woman is attracted to your frame, when she has chemistry for you, and being able to take that as your starting point, and then what you need to do to manage that from here on out is—

Yes. Well, and cherishing a woman is different than trying to get her approval and trying to pay for it. You know, cherishing a woman is effort, and it does look like putting in effort, but you've already gotten into the container, which I found a way to work into this conversation. Um, if you— but you found— you've already— you're already in. You just stay in by continually, you know, showing that you're excited to be there. Essentially, you do not buy your way in and then, you know, pay to stay.

Right, because you want to be. Because if you are getting your stuff together, you got— when you're on track with purpose, when you are in the gym, when you are getting your mind right, your spirit right, when you have a harmony between these different elements of life, you know, and so now you're creating your frame, right? And now you're being able— your frame is naturally coming together because you're taking care of all of these personal things. So your frame is coming together. When your frame is coming in and it's consistent, you're starting to attract with authenticity. And what's authentic for you, you're starting to attract chemistry. And when women have chemistry, you're starting to be able to put things effortlessly.

Yes.

You know, it's, it's— that's where it comes out. So when you're talking about cherishing, of course you're going to cherish a woman who's all over you, who's willing to leave her parents and come and pick you up so you guys can just— of course you're gonna love that. Why? Because you're not— you, you spent 5 minutes in that situation where you're used to spending hours and hours and days and days and all this time. This guy ended up spending like 4 or 5 hours with— had to spend his own money, all for what, right?

Well, and, and, you know, another, another side of that argument was that if he really valued her, it wouldn't be an angry thing.

Oh, absolutely.

What he values is what she can do for him.

Exactly.

And that's the sad part about it, is that it, it isn't that she is valuable to him. In that case, it's that he has— he's trying to win something, he's trying to get something. And that's why it's so one-sided, because he would do it happily if he saw value in her. But it sounds like the opposite. Seems like he's doing it because he sees value in her. But the reason that it doesn't work is because if he saw value in her, he wouldn't be angry. The reason he's angry is because he didn't get his ego stroked.

Exactly. And the reason why so many of us guys end up having to get women into our lives that way is for exactly really what the topic is. It's, you know, you gotta develop your own frame because is she gonna— what are you? What is she? Because every time she talks to you, you're swaying with whatever wind is blowing at the given time, right?

Right.

So it's like, right, what—

which weird pickup line are you gonna try on me tonight? Just come at me, you know. Oh, I've spent time in Vegas, as a little aside, and it's amazing to watch the troops of people wandering around. And sometimes they come over and they want to talk.

I love Vegas, man.

Well, but, but the interesting part about it is that the people that are, you know, really like, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna get something out of this, are the ones who end up like Like, you know, walking home together in the middle of the night, like we're not wearing their shoes. And the ones who don't really care, ones that end up getting everything. And it's the same with everything. It's the same with money. It's the same with business. It's the same with relationships. It's the same with women, same with men. Like, if you are out to get something, you are probably not going to succeed. But if you're out to be you and then give something, And I don't mean give like tangible stuff like merit badges. I mean, share your presence with people. You're gonna have a totally different experience.

Completely. I mean, we can even see this. Oh, I know we have to stop, right? Right.

Well, this was the strategy discussion. So the strategy is stop worrying about what other people can do for you and do stuff for yourself. Right.

You are your first— should be your first thought. You're— and not in that Not in that, again, that selfish way, but in that way of put that oxygen mask on yourself first so you can live to be able to help your children.

Right. Well, I don't have to tell people very often to be less selfish. One thing that's been interesting to me, which I in the beginning did not think this would be the case, I thought people were much more selfish than they are and that their motivations were super, and they are. The weird paradox is that I don't have to tell people to be less selfish very often. Very, very rarely is that the problem. The problem is more that they've pretzel twisted their own desires around in order to get their needs met. If they just went about it a little different way, they wouldn't have to worry about it. Because they're afraid to be selfish, they do all of these weird sideways behaviors.

Exactly.

They bargain, they act like nice guys and nice girls, they do all this crap because what they're doing is trying not to seem a certain way. They're doing all this for approval. If they just let that go and just owned it and said, yeah, you know what? I'm my number one, they would actually get much farther and be much happier. We are afraid to be selfish because we think that we're going to get cast out for it when the truth is that Actually, people admire it.

They do. And then, to be honest, you're right, there is an element of fear in the fact that we do see people who are, uh, have the courage to be authentic do get attacked because we, we almost hate— we almost want to move people off that mark because there's something so instinctual in us, especially if we can't live like that ourselves. Yeah, uh, you know, celebrities are the perfect example of this. And there's certain celebrities that are so polarizing. Why are they polarizing? Because they've staked out a particular viewpoint or idea or whatever, and they're not moving from it.

Right.

And a part of their— so when some of their thought process or whatever they think, whatever they believe in, doesn't really mesh well with the current societal You know, vibes.

Yeah, like polarity is an example of this. Like, I know that, like, the more popular I become, the more difficult it is to continue to maintain this message, because this is just one of those things. But like, an example when it comes to selfishness is like Mariah Carey, for example, is known for being extremely diva-ish, right? Like, she— but the thing about it is that at a certain level, you start to admire this behavior. And I don't know I don't know if this is just a sick quirk of my own, but I'm starting to look at people who are very confident and be like, all right, that is— you know what, I don't understand anything that you like, but what I do appreciate is that you are doing you all the way.

It's really the only way, like, because there's some people who are like this that I fundamentally can't stand them, right? But like, you're talking—

Their whole thing just bothers you.

Their whole thing just bothers me, but they They are— this is what you get when you get them, right? I know that this person believes in this, and no matter what, this is right. They don't capitulate, right?

Well, and like, we're not going to teach a cat to bark. Like, we're, you know, have to worry about like them showing up differently. You're always getting this.

You're always getting— again, it seems like every day people are just spending all their time trying to move people. It is why they're being talked to, it's why they're being recognized. It's— again, this is why you'll go on online dating and you'll see the same 5 things on everybody's profile, because it's very—

I like hiking.

I like hiking, I love dogs.

I love travel.

I love travel, you know, all of these things that like we know.

I like the ocean. So I'm sorry, I can't, I can't help it.

Yeah, because it's so— it's, it's—

I'm a bitch. It's another one. Like, I'm an asshole. Like, you, you know, own it. That— we don't want to talk about that. Like, we are not talking like, you know, you are abrasive and you want to tell us about it. That's not the kind of selfishness that we're discussing.

We're talking about that selfishness that comes from you being able to identify and live whatever it is that is true for And when you're able to do that, like Elizabeth said, it changes. You'll live in a completely different paradigm, completely different paradigm.

It's great.

And yet it's amazing. But yes, you will get attacked. And yes, because when you are refusing to move, it's human nature to try and get you to move. That's just kind of how we respond to that. When someone plants their flag, we want to go and take it down. So, yeah. This is where I think it's a good place to stop. I think I got across pretty nice.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, absolutely. But it's enjoyable as always.

So important. So appreciative. Because like I said, I don't know how I'd be able to talk about this. It's no knock on anybody, any of my other coaches.

Well, likewise. I always appreciate your presence and your energy. It's just a great way to spend Wednesday of my week.

Absolutely. Like I said, You're authentic, you get— this is how you get to live, man.

Well, and the other thing, like, like, if you think about the little tiny conversation we just had, the little tiny like, oh my gosh, I just appreciate you, this is just wonderful. If you think about other times in your life when it's been hard to say a thing to people, think about why. You know, why was it hard to be like so obviously happy about something? You're like, why? Like, because you're afraid that if you admit it You're gonna lose it. And it's the opposite, people. Appreciation gets you more of stuff, not less stuff. More stuff comes from appreciating things. That's my final takeaway.

I'll say, to the day I die, what works is counterintuitive. It's weird how it works that way. It's weird that a lot of our natural proclivities is to do the thing that just doesn't fundamentally work. And when it does work, it feels weird. Have you ever like started working out? And especially somebody who's ever worked with a trainer, I guarantee if you're somebody who's ever worked with a trainer, they've had you do things that felt really weird.

Oh yeah. And you felt, and you just couldn't understand why we're doing that.

You couldn't understand why you're doing that.

Oh great. Yeah. Let's, yeah. You know what I want to do is whatever you're suggesting. That's how I felt with the trainer.

Right, exactly. But that's exactly, he has to, because a lot of times what our normal is, is wrong. It's off, right?

And that's why you look the same after 15 years. Like, that's why you hired the trainer, right? You know, you're going 3 days a week and you still look the same. The trainer is paid to make you do weird side hops or something ridiculous and then make you so sore you can't walk.

Exactly. It's so funny because once I, you know, I went through football weightlifting. I knew a guy that taught me certain things that gave me so much— like, I, I couldn't even And I was shocked because what he had me doing, I was thinking like, what is this? You know, I play football, man. You know, I know how to lift weights. I know how to condition.

I'm never gonna get strong if I do this. I had that thought too.

Right. But 20 minutes of what he had me doing had me dying. Like, I was just laid out on the floor like, get away from me. Everybody needs to get away from me.

I need a safe space. This is horrible.

You know, just not happy at all. Again, it was never what I would have considered Never would have, but that's the whole thing. You're having someone who can see what you can't see. Because just because something's normal to you doesn't mean you're right. Your back could be out of place and you not think anything of it because you're so used to it being out of place. And then the chiropractor comes in and changes your world.

Yeah. Energy healers can do that too, as an aside.

But that's the whole thing with yoga and all of that was it's just to get you in alignment, right?

Absolutely.

So, you know, we can go analogy after analogy, metaphor after metaphor. I'm just going to keep pushing it because—

Or just save some for next time, I suppose.

Nevertheless, uh, thank you guys for tuning in. Really appreciate it. Again, you can go to our website, The Inner Podcast. Appreciate you. Hopefully you got something else that can be—

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you can find me at attracttheone.com. Also, luxself.com is my new venture, and I'm ready for you to go look at it. So I'm going to be doing a masterclass in January. So just keep it on the back of your mind for fun things to do.

Uh, but yes, I should, you know, I'm gonna have you doing that in the beginning too, cause I'm gonna forget. So you're gonna have to remind me.

Oh, well, thank you. I'm happy to plug it just constantly because I'm super excited about it. So I hope everybody can benefit.

Plug it whenever. But, uh, yeah, other than that, I hope you guys enjoy the rest of your day, night, your holiday season. And we'll see you next time. Thank you, Elizabeth.

Thank you, Robert.