"I Just Don't Feel It"-- Understanding Chemistry Part 1 with Robert Dunn & Elizabeth Stone

Hey, what's going on, guys? Welcome to the Orion Group Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Dunn, and I'm here tonight with my co-host, Miss Elizabeth Stone from attracttheone.com. Elizabeth, what's up?

How you doing? I'm great. How are you, Robert?

I'm good, man. It's been a nice day. Good day. Productive day. It was actually a really good weekend. Actually, no, I lied. My team lost, but I really won fantasy. So it's kind of half and half, but—

You were positive until you remembered that part of it.

I just thought about that. Also wrapped up in something else, but things are going well. Thank you guys though for tuning in. Really appreciate it. You can go to our website, theoriongrouppodcast.com, and you can check out our stuff there. I almost forgot the name of our website. And I'll give Elizabeth a chance to— Let you know about her because she's a lot more to say than I do. So I kind of want to give you her own little space and time to be able to—

Oh, thank you. Well, yeah, I'm into week 3 of Attract the One Live, which is my very first group coaching class. And so that's good. It's a boutique little group. It's been a lot of fun to give those calls and connect with everybody. And everybody's very different. So that's been interesting too. It's attracted very, like, a cross-section of people in all different situations. So I've really enjoyed I've enjoyed delivering that so far. I've had to think about things I've never thought about before, which I love.

Right, I love that. I love being able to— well, I mean, if you're anybody who's trying to do something or trying to be better, you should definitely be constantly pushing yourself and putting yourself in positions where you're uncomfortable, um, in a good way, you know, obviously. Yeah, um, but to stretch yourself and to learn something new, um, so you grow, man. So yeah, I Kudos to you for that.

Yep. I mean, I forced myself onto live video, so we should probably all play the lottery.

Oh, there you go. It's a big step, man. A lot of people, you'd be surprised. I mean, it's different. So I'll let you handle that. I know I'm going to get on video eventually. I don't think I have a problem with it, but I say that now.

Well, I thought that, you know, I just had to look right or like it just had to be the right sunny day or I don't know. But I think it was just that you have to do it. I mean, I had my first Facebook Live ever where I just like totally choked and then realized that, oh, this is different and harder than I thought. And I'm planning on delivering this live program in 2 weeks. So, got some just-in-time training, got some wonderful coaching and went on out there. So, I recommend everybody do something you're really afraid of because it will force you to grow and I've been really proud of it.

So, all right, see, there's nothing like that. You're just proud of yourself, you know. I mean, when you get to the point when you can start— I mean, this is what I've learned personally— when you just, you're able to, uh, encourage yourself and you're able to, uh, get to a point where you're not necessarily needing so many people to constantly push you or constantly validate you or constantly, you know, try to hype you up, and you're able to get to a point where you can do that, lead yourself. Um, essentially, uh, it's a really good place to be in because like I said, the less you need people, the better you can help them.

Oh God, yes. Oh, need is a dirty word in my world. All right.

Uh, so yeah.

Want, desire, desire and require are fantastic, but need is a dirty word.

Oh, see, there you go. Well, I was trying to see how that can, uh, you can tie that into what we're talking about, but I don't know if I can. I don't know. We'll just—

We'll see. We're pretty good at this.

That's true.

Yeah, I have faith in it.

All right, well, ultimately, our ultimate topic tonight, we're going to be discussing this article a listener sent me that is very interesting. That, to be honest, I'm probably going to go through it like paragraph, like section by section. So I don't want to rush this. So it might be maybe a couple shows, or, you know, you might have to stretch it out because I don't want to— I think every kind of part of this has something that we can talk about and expand on. So that's probably just pull out a few points, but I think there's just a lot of—

There is a lot to work with in there because there's a fair amount of solid points and there's also a lot of bitterness and there's a lot of like self-flagellation that we can discuss.

It's a very human—

It is the quest to breed, step 1.

But before we get into that though, I want to talk about chemistry a little bit.

Yeah, let's do it.

Chemistry, the big C word. I don't think there's any other word I've heard more over the last few years in just the dating realm other than this word. But then again, I deal with, um, or work with and connect with a lot of women. So this is a big word in women world, I've learned.

True.

Yeah, um, I'd like to say I didn't realize how much it wasn't something guys talked about until I honestly realized how much women talk about it. Uh, and I think it's been interesting because I've actually been focusing more on it because we use chemistry. I'm not trying to insult anybody's intelligence. I just want to make sure we're on the same page, right? Um, but this word gets used a lot, so much so that I don't think we actually think about it. And I don't think that, uh, especially for the fellas, because really where I really want to talk to you on my end anyway, so the fellas, and obviously Elizabeth always knows how to fill in my blind spots, so I'll trust her to do that. But why I think this is an important thing to talk about, especially for the fellows, is because I had an experience this last weekend with a guy friend that I've had a million times, or I've heard, you know, a million guys say this over the course of my lifetime, but it was the first time that really like stuck out to me and I thought about it. Maybe it's my Podcast mind chirping in there or whatever, but it just—I kind of stopped and thought about this time because what happened was he—he broke up with his girlfriend. Oh well, or his girlfriend broke up with him, and she left him or whatever. I don't—I'm not sure it was for another guy or not. I don't think it was. But nevertheless, she left and or broke up with them. And what he said to me was like, he pretty much—I don't say explained it—but pretty much responded to it by saying, you know, I did X, Y, and Z. You know, I was a good boyfriend. I didn't cheat. You know, I went to work every day. All that kind of stuff that I was so used to guys always, you know, pretty much saying after some after something like this happens. But why it stuck out to me was because I realized that this is a very— I won't say eye-opening, but a very consistent response from men because it represents really fundamentally how we approach women. And I say that because we approach women from such a performance-based Yeah, system. You do.

Like, I've checked all the blocks, I have my checklist here, and I've gone down and it is all correct. And now that should equal relationship, right?

You know, or love or sex or put whatever it is that you're wanting to put into that.

Well, and it's not a demand thing. I don't mean that like, like they think that they're turning in paperwork or anything. It's just that it kind of seems Like, like logical in that way. Like, oh, well, I did all the things like your friend. I, I was a good, you know, boyfriend. I did all, you know, I took care of it. And why did I not succeed?

Right. And it's, I mean, it's very evolutionary in the sense of performance is such a big thing for us because producing results is really the foundation of being a man.

Yeah. Masculine energy. Results, competitive, conquering, controlling.

Right. Because that's what we've been valued for over the whole course of human history, from the Industrial Revolution to the guy who could kill the most tigers in the tribe got to eat first. His family was taken care of. And so if there was— because a lot of women will talk about how they feel their looks and their beauty has been really the beginning and ending of their value.

Um, which is historically the way that it's been, right?

Which is historically the way it's been. And so if there was, like I said, an equivalent to that for us, it would definitely be producing results. When guys cannot produce results that they want to produce, that's what causes depression in men. This is why guys can take it so hard when they lose a job, especially a job that they were really productive at, or they felt like they were really productive at, really fit their skill set. Um, you can see really crashes in that arena, and obviously especially relationships, because a lot of times Uh, you'll hear guys when they talk about a failed relationship, they'll talk about how they failed.

Yeah, that's very true. Well, and, and lots of people definitely take it upon themselves, especially when they've been the one rejected, they internalize and then look at all the reasons why they failed if they've been rejected. That's very common.

All right. And so when he was talking to me about this, why I stopped this time around, because like I said, I've heard this from guys all my life, right? Like, that's all— I mean, I've heard a lot of guys tonight, you know, not, not every situation, but it's common enough for me not to even think about it, right? But the reason why it stopped me this time is because maybe because I've been doing it now and because I've been able to talk to so many different women, there's certain things that just naturally I've, I think, you know—

Got an ear for?

Yeah, I got an ear for. Just kind of became a part of my instinct. Yeah. And this is something that caught me because when he was talking about that, or I was, you know, I was pretty much saying to myself in my head was like, so? And that was weird because I never had that response ever.

You were like, there's something you're not seeing in the Matrix.

Yeah, right. I mean, I was just like, so? Because I was— he was talking to me about all the things that he was doing. It was the first time I told myself, like, what does that matter? You know? And then—

Oh man, you've gone over to the dark side.

Right, I know. And I, and I said that when I was thinking about why I responded like that, it's not so much that I produce some results and being performance, you know, is inherently bad. It's just I realized I got to the point in talking to enough women that I realized it's not going to ever be the top priority.

Well, it's not what— well, the problem with it is that it's like the extra now. Unfortunately.

It's like the compliment.

Yeah. Well, and then when we're missing that, we're like, oh shit, like he, man, he does not have it together. But the unfortunate thing about the chase for chemistry is that we start to worry about those things last when those are what kind of men are known for doing. So it's like they're bringing their jewels and we are rejecting them.

Right. And that's, and that's something that I don't— I realize, I think I especially, you know, earlier on in life, and I see a lot of men still to this point. Obviously will never— they, they don't really understand chemistry and women and its value to women and what and how women prioritize that and where that stands, if that makes any sense. You know, as in, I realized the difference between a bad boy and the friend zone guy is the bad boy is the guy she has chemistry for but doesn't have the performance.

Right.

And so you can go on Facebook right now or somewhere, if you know the girl's dealing with a bad boy because the chemistry is there, but she spends the rest of the time complaining that the performance isn't there, right?

Well, and the other thing is we tend to blame people and name them bad boys when it just might not be a that interested boy.

And that's really what it is. Like, when I realized when also when women say bad boy or they're talking about the asshole or the jerk, it's not so much that the guy is inherently an asshole. It's just the performance isn't there when the chemistry is.

Right. Right. Yeah.

And the flip side of it is the friend zone guy is the performance without the chemistry.

Yes, that's very true.

All right. And so I think it's really important for men to understand this because like what I was saying about my friend and how my response to him was, I said so because I understood that the chemistry wasn't there. So I knew Now, kind of just instinctually that everything he was saying, even though I know it was like, it wasn't a problem, like, that's good that you were doing that. But without that butterfly feeling, that chemistry element, then all of that is almost— it's almost important for you as a girl. Like, a lot of times, uh, you know, a girl can work at McDonald's for a guy and he will care less.

Right, right. That's not important to you.

That's not important to you, right? But at the same time, you'll hear a lot of women who are successful be like, you know, I make 6 figures, I own my own house, you know, I have 2, 3 degrees, why can't I find it? And I would respond the same way. Like, so—

Right, doesn't care.

Doesn't care, right? Because it just doesn't— I mean, that's good, but that has nothing to do with my sexual arousal, relational Right, right.

It's not how you're built, right?

It's not how we're built. And so, uh, again, I think it's important for you to— for guys to understand this because I think a lot of guys want to perform their way into chemistry. And Elizabeth— me and Elizabeth talked about this a lot, man. And it is possible— I'll put a disclaimer— it is possible to flip a girl, right?

Yes, it is.

It is possible to, to get that. I don't know if I've ever known a girl, uh, or a woman who has not had an experience of having a boyfriend that she ended up really, you know, loving, caring about, becoming attached to, that she admits there wasn't anything there in the beginning. All right.

Yes, that's very true. You have to give him time to get in there and do the chemistry thing. Like, once that happens and you actually have biological chemistry for him, you're all— you're in the clear, right? So that's how he flipped her over, is he stuck around long enough for her, you know, to hurt— for her to give him a chance. And that's what That's how that happens, right? The problem— the chemistry still had to be there though.

The chemistry still had to be there. And fellas, the chemistry has to be there. I cannot stress this enough. Like, it has to be there. And even though you can flip a woman, it's a lot more difficult to do that nowadays because of the access we have to each other, because of online dating, because it's hard to keep somebody's attention for a longer period of time than it's ever been as a result. And so You know, there's, there's some things that will kind of make it a little bit more difficult, I've seen anyways, to, to kind of flip that. But you— I mean, the chemistry has to be there. And I— a lot of guys get very upset about this.

I think the reason may— the reason why it might be unclear to men is that under the age of andropause, which is in your 50s, you don't— you can't bond to a woman chemically the same way that a woman can bond to you. So, you don't actually— you can't physically experience what we do when we are talking about chemistry. We can bond with you, but you can't bond with us in the same way. It's actually chemically not impossible until the 40s and 50s. So, right around that time, we go through— when we go through menopause, then we are able to have sexual intercourse without bonding to the men that we're sleeping with, which is why It's much easier for an older woman to go and just have an amazing time when she was younger. It would have been really bad for her biology because that continual bonding experience with the actual chemistry is actually very dangerous for us to experience breakups. The Takotsubo myopathy heart attack is a result of having— it's broken heart syndrome. It's a result of having that chemistry, losing a relationship. So if you ladies out there, if you're experiencing chest pains during a breakup and you're under the age of menopause, and if you're over the age of menopause, please in fact also consult a health professional. But if you're younger than, you can actually die from a broken heart. So we can experience that when you can't until you get older, which is another reason why sometimes when older men fall in love with a younger, much younger woman and she dumps them, Or whatever she does goes away, then he dies of a heart attack. Because that same process, you're suddenly able to bond with women, you move more into your feelings, you have more estrogen dominance, and then it's possible for you to experience that when before it was impossible.

And see, I love the way Elizabeth breaks that stuff down.

Well, it's a real chemical thing. I mean, we're not just, we're not just like You know, turning into, you know, crazy lunatics when this happens to us because it's just a fun time.

Well, this is why I'm so— in our bodies, this is why I'm so adamant about people needing to understand that, that you have 2 operating systems running in, running in you at the same time. You have an Apple and you have, uh, a PC. This is how you have to look at it. One system is complete— one system's job, its only job, is to Make sure that you survive, the human species survives, and that we reproduce.

Yes.

That's it. That's all it cares about.

Very important.

Very, very important. We don't get from 1 to 8 billion people without that. Um, we could even talk about in a religious sense too, but I'll, uh, you know, I won't go there. But at the same time, the point is, is that you have to understand that there is an evolutionary biological element to you that If we didn't have that, then we would have to spend every single waking moment concerned about our survival and concerned about our reproduction. The reason why—

Because it wouldn't be strong enough.

Right. It wouldn't be strong enough. We would have to consciously be considerate of it at all times. And so it's necessary. But at the same time, understand, if it, if it is running your life and if it's running your relationships, you will— it is not concerned about your quality.

It's, you know, well, you know, to some extent, actually, the feminine mechanism is because if we mess up with what we put in the container, we're in trouble. Um, but when it comes to, you know, the way sperm works, not as much.

And, and this is why it's so important for us to know a little bit about it, because it's— and it sounds like a big thing, but really, this is the, the element of us that is concerned. We'll have a This is the place where girls care about your height.

Yeah.

Right. That's where that lives. All of this stuff that we think is foolish is actually very revolutionary or evolutionary, has been very necessary, what we've picked up over the centuries to survive, to get to the place where we could have a society. If a woman didn't get guys, connect herself with men that were bigger, stronger, then she wasn't going to survive at one point in history. Right?

Yeah.

Or the likelihood of that, or her children, the likelihood of it would drop dramatically between a guy who was 5'4, 180 pounds wet, as opposed to a 6'4, 250-pound man. The grizzly bear is a completely different fight, right? And so that's the kind of stuff that's created these default instincts in us. This is why we'll— I don't care, as long as you are born a biological male or a biological female, your firmware is set. Your firmware will just have you have certain proclivities to certain things, right? And you'll know what these things are because they won't have anything to do with the quality of your relationship.

Oh, and it will seem ridiculous, right? You know, when you have real chemistry with somebody and you just— you can't— you won't even be able to understand it. Like, you, you know, you'll look at them at the grocery store and wonder why, and it will just be because you have great— nature thinks you should breed with them, right? That's it.

That's all it's saying.

It doesn't mean that it's fate. It means nature thinks that you would make great babies.

Nature thinks that you would make great babies, and that's its job. And so because it's a necessity for us, you know, because a lot of people I've heard, when they start understanding this aspect of themselves, start to actually hate it, especially, you know, they really do. Because, you know, even in the church, you know, they call it— it's called flesh. And so you'll always hear preachers talking about you need to kill your flesh, you need to kill your flesh.

Good luck to you.

Yeah, good luck, because it's just not— you can, you can do— I mean, you can, you know, get to a certain point where you can manage it. That's what you should be gunning towards, because you're not going to completely get rid of it. You need to know how to manage it. But the point is, This is something that you need to be aware of so you know what's making your decisions. Like Elizabeth said, when you're just going insane about a person for no reason, they didn't do anything, they didn't— you don't even have to speak to the person. I mean, we all know—

No, you'd be sitting next to them on the bus, right?

That's right.

It takes 3 days for that to wear off. You're just there within 36 inches. Um, it's a smell thing, actually.

You know, there's all of that because again, that's how we've gotten to this point, but Uh, when people make decisions and they connect with nothing but those people, these are the people that are constantly hating life in terms of— from a relationship standpoint, because they're constantly getting involved with people who they have this crazy, you know, chemistry experience with. But those relationships never pan out because you're— it brings out a different version of you. I mean, we all know what it's like to be in that situation and hopefully, and most likely, have someone respond to you that way. And it's just, they just, it's almost, it's like an oozing of desperation. It's like an oozing of just complete submission to, you know, needing to have you in some way. You can tell they just, everything that just would normally, any restrictor plate that they would normally have on their behavior will naturally go away. I mean, this is, this is why it's so dangerous, because when I've met When women in my life function like this, you know what I mean? It's—

Well, and since you can't, I mean, physically can't experience that kind of what that does to you, right, you know, in the same way. I mean, you can certainly be attracted to women and certainly get addicted to them, but you cannot actually experience that until later. Um, it's hard for men to understand because men definitely, you know, they lust after women and And get really interested in them. But it's this— what we're talking about is really hard to control when you're experiencing it. Like, you need a lot of training in order to control that and not act kooky.

Oh my gosh.

You know, like, as much as I know, you know, when I'm around those people, it's like, okay, like, let's lock down all the, you know, silverware or whatever, you know, like you're trying to make yourself into a being that can actually make a sentence make sense. I mean, it's really hard.

All right. And like you said, as a guy, I know what it's like to really be into a girl. But when I see that, it's clearly on a different level, right? It's something completely different. And I know that there— whatever's happening in you in this moment is— I don't know what that is.

We just have to— we just struggle to control it is all it is. But, you know, the hard part is right now it's kind of trendy to decide that that person is your twin flame. And then, and I have an opinion about that, but it's not a good one. But that's because I, you know, I experienced the, you know, what happens to people when they are not willing to open themselves up to other chemistries, because that's the only way to knock it out of your body, like, is to get more and better with somebody else. And then you can Let it go. The best way to get over it is to really like let somebody new steal you away, because otherwise it takes 2 years for that to get out of your body. When you have really good chemistry for somebody, 2 years. That's how long it takes.

That's insane.

It is. Yeah. And people, if you notice, people will come back around before 2 years is up and reinfect you. You guys do that to us. You come over and you're like, hey, wanna, um, play skee-ball? You know, like, I haven't seen you in 18 months. And then you reinfect us and then we get to do it again and we don't even know.

I didn't even know that was a case because I know I've made, you know, those phone calls.

Well, and it's not an intentional thing. It's just very much a biological thing. You have to keep your harem all, you know, all interested. You have to keep yourself as number one.

Right.

Not you personally, Robert. I'm sorry. For everybody who's listening, I'm not saying that Robert is going around infecting people. I'm just saying that biologically that's the way it works and it takes that long so that you have to raise somebody to the age of 2 before they start to— they cannot think for themselves at 2. I don't know what I'm saying, but that's enough time to really procreate and get a viable human.

This is an issue that I came— Elizabeth asked me. The other night, you know, what are some of the things that I've seen and kind of experienced, I've learned new since, since doing this? And there's anything— probably the number one thing that stood out to me when really being able to really talk to women, you know, in a way where you can really start to understand what's going on and their experiences through all of this and have so many different opportunities to talk to so many different women— if there's anything that stood out to me that has been like Really, I'm saying strange, but really interesting how it's been so consistent has been this issue. Because most of our questions are chemistry questions, and I didn't even realize that until like after about 3 or 4 or 5, 6 months. I started looking at all of these and I'm just— I realize I keep responding to you from an operating system that you're not running in currently.

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

Yeah, um, your chemistry— if chemistry is Apple, I keep talking to you in PC, and I'm talking to you in the— to your PC strategies, you know, the part—

Why are we acting wacky, chemistry? Right, just how do we get out of here? Well, we kill the chemistry, right?

I'm like, well, obviously— and I didn't even— like you said, I didn't even really realize this, but by default, that's what I kept telling women. To essentially stop going towards the chemistry, which is probably the worst strategy possible when dealing in this arena. Because again, one, it's not really— I don't want to say it's not really possible, but it's just that you can't— that's not the way.

You can't negotiate it.

You can't negotiate it. I know.

The advice— yeah, a lot of the guy coaches give this advice. too. And even the book He's Just Not That Into You is based on this premise like, he just doesn't care about you, go away. And that's really cool and really soundbite-y, but that doesn't actually cut to the root of the problem, which is that you need more men. We need more men. You have to expose yourself to more men. And I'm always saying to my people, add more men. And they don't want to do it. They don't like it. And they don't like it because of this issue. If you have really great chemistry with somebody— The last thing you want to do is go out and diversify, but that's what solves the problem. So I spend the majority of my time convincing people to diversify because that's what helps.

All right.

It's not— you can't say, okay, I'm just not going to be around Ken. You have to go and like look for the rest of the tribe. Like you have to go and open yourself up even if you don't want to because that's what will knock that biology out and then reinfect you with somebody else and then you can worry about, you know, Whoever, Jack, James, whoever it is, because that's how you get rid of that. You need somebody with the same or better, or at least something, because if you don't have that, then you get to wait 2 years. And that sucks.

Yeah, because I mean, this is where you'll get all these questions about, I'm still in love with my ex, and it's been a year and a half, and you have a new guy. And again, this is just an issue that That so many men, like I did, even initially in terms of talking about it to women, try to negotiate it.

Oh yeah, the guy coaches all try to negotiate it, man.

Guys in general. Well, because guys, we've been taught in a subconscious way, or maybe subconscious is probably not the right word, but almost a Like the logical, like that.

Yeah, more of a logical way.

Why would you continue to do that? That is not— Uh, there's a word I'm looking for. I can't think of it right now. But, uh, we've been taught that this is how you pursue women, by essentially negotiating desire. And I mean that because in all of, you know, women have the Disney movies and all of that. They've been told, you know, taught about how All that, we, we kind of litigated that whole thing a lot. But what, what is the, the, the equal, the parallel for men? For us, we've been taught that you whisk a girl up on her feet or whatever, right? The whole idea of like wooing her and flowers and all of that, and you're trying to win her heart, right?

Courtship.

Courtship. And inherently that's not bad, but what the problem— what that actually looks like in reality See, that inherently, like I said, I mean, I can't necessarily argue against that, so to speak. But really what guys took from that was negotiating desire.

Oh, that's interesting.

And I didn't realize that until I really started looking. How do guys actually apply this though? Because the whole idea of courtship seems obvious to women, right? The whole idea of wooing seems obvious. But I didn't realize it really wasn't obvious to us because what it looked like to us was that All right, you got to get a girl to like you. And that is where we went wrong. And so you have a lot of guys like my friend saying, I did XYZ. I, I don't understand why I can't negotiate her desire. I don't understand why, you know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Yeah, you're right. Well, I, I, um, there's something there and that, that hit me, and it's that like we don't We don't think about it like you are doing X, Y, and Z to get us to like you. We think about it like, oh, he's doing all of this because he likes me.

Ah, see.

Like he is— yeah, like he must be like, you know, he must really like me if he's going to all this trouble and now it's very clear that he really likes me and, you know, then you get to do what you do with that. But like we think about it more like, oh, Because he's showing all of these signs of courtship, that must mean to us that he cares about us. Like, very formulaic. Right.

See, and that's where— see, I mean, even look at it from a standpoint of a little boy. A little boy will bring, you know, all the groceries out of the car, you know, trying to hold 4 groceries at a time and struggling to bring it into his mom. And just like you said, the mom could be thinking, oh, he loves me as his mom so much that he's doing this for me. But no, the little boy is doing that because at the end of this process, I'll get a treat.

Okay.

That treat—

So we're all just self-serving little creatures, day 10,000.

Right. Because that's what— That's true though. That's what evolution does. Evolution only cares about you, right? Evolution is not concerned about quality. It's not concerned about you having better relationships. Do— are we going to survive? And again, this isn't making people inherently bad, inherently selfish. It's just our mechanism doing its job, right? Because the little boy, it's not that he doesn't love his mother, but he's, you know, he does it because at the end of that process, it's like a good boy.

He's gonna get a stroke.

A stroke, or, you know, a Rice Krispie treat, you know, something like that. And yeah, and adult men do the same thing. And women are— this is why women get so upset when like, well, he took me to dinner, why does he want sex? Because it's the same process we've been doing that we've been taught to do our whole lives. We kept getting rewarded every time we produced a result.

Well, and also like, you wanted sex the whole time. Like, why is that insulting?

Right. I mean, again, it's— I mean, but you know, it was always before it was sex, it was your mother's love.

Right.

It was your mother's validation, your father's, or what, you know, your family, whoever was that person in your life, your grandmother. And so it just switches when you hit puberty, but it's the same process. And so guys will continue this process of, I do X, Y, and Z, it's not producing a stroke like it did for my mom, right? Why am I doing this for her? And she loves me, and she— because she's not realizing she's gonna love you regardless.

Right, right.

Because she's your mother. But obviously that's our first experience with women, and so subconsciously we're not thinking anything like that. We just understand from day one, if we do X, we smile, mom smiles and gets happy. If we do X, mom gets happy and smiles and rewards us. If we do B and she gets mad, that's not good, right? Until we can take care of ourselves anyways. And so again, a lot of men get mad about this process when they get to the dating stage of life because they get so mad at the bad boy because he's getting the chemistry without doing anything or not doing any work, not producing any result. And a lot of quote unquote nice guys, that, that, that short circuits the system.

Yeah, very, very upsetting.

Right. It's very upsetting. And it's very upsetting because there's no process. Wait a minute, I did XYZ. I'm the friend. I'm the one talking to her every night. I'm the the one showing up when she's sick, I'm driving her to this, and then she meets a guy at the bar and has sex with them 3 hours later.

Well, that chemistry though. I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. You're totally right about that. It's very well. And the other thing about it too is that being hard to get works really well. It just works, you know, and that's one of the things that the bad boys have going for them is that since they're so disinterested as a, as a whole, they succeed at just being hard to get because they literally just don't care. One of my friends was telling me a story the other day from the show Community. And she said that there's— I don't know the show very well, but she said that there's an episode where this woman's ex-boyfriend is like with the circus or with the carnival. And one of the main characters says to her, like, he has brain damage. That's why he's acting so disinterested. He doesn't actually care about you. He just has brain damage. It's not like he's a bad boy. He doesn't— he can't with you.

And the funny thing is, like, the whole bad boy— see, bad boys aren't a demographic. No, they're not.

You don't go to a city and, like, have a 10% bad boy quotient. No, they're just a disinterested man. That's what it is.

They're just a disinterested man. That's all a guy has to do to become a bad boy is just be disinterested. True. Very true. And you have to have chemistry for him. You have chemistry for a disinterested man, boom, a bad boy is born, right?

That's true, actually. That's very true.

That's all it is. A nerd could be a bad boy in the nerd world. If they're at Comic-Con and he's a top bad boy, then that just means—

He just doesn't care.

He just doesn't care about you, right?

Right.

That's right. That's the only what that means. And the, the good guy, the nice guy, all he is is the guy who want you, but you have no chemistry for him, like we said earlier. And so this— that's all you got to do is be a nice guy.

Well, I don't know. I think, um, as far as being a nice guy, there's a real element of COVID contracts in there. And that was a phrase coined by Robert Glover. No, I think it's Robert Glover who wrote, um, No More Mr. Nice Guy, right? And, um, explained that basically you have to understand that by doing these behaviors, you expect the result. So if you are, you know, like, like the kid with his mom, you know, if you're bringing the groceries in expecting the stroke or like the, the admiration, then you are in fact enacting a covert contract, which is an unspoken contract in return for performance. So you are promising, you know, you're doing something with the hope of a return. So you're doing something with the promise of sex or whatever. And then when it doesn't happen, the nice guy thing is to get really angry about that and then get mad at the woman because she didn't follow through on the contract. When she did not write it, you wrote it. Right.

So that's where the that that term of um excuse me uh uh see I'm forgetting all my words tonight. Uh it's been used a lot politically right now. Uh gosh what is it? Uh gosh dang it. Um but the point is what I'm really talking about what I mean what I was whatever I'm see I'm gonna remember like three of these words at Totally.

Like as you're drifting off to sleep.

That's what happens. My mind starts running too fast and I gotta slow myself down. But, um, uh, but no, the point is, as a nice guy, like you said, really what makes you a nice guy is not the expectation, but it's your response, really.

Yeah, it's getting angry at her because she does not give you the response that you want.

Right. Uh, And so that comes again, it's not bad to have an expectation, but a lot of times when a guy gets so mad about it where he flips out on you after that rejection, again, because these are the guys that are at a point where they haven't matured internally enough to understand that, that rejection, that lack of producing a result isn't inherent to their masculinity. They haven't separated it yet.

Right. And also, sometimes they're just so quick on the trigger too. Like, you know, we aren't sitting there with a, you know, a scale judging you at every moment. Sometimes we're just less interested or more interested depending on our feelings. So sometimes the nice guy thing is to get really upset really fast. And if they just waited, they would have gotten everything they wanted, which sucks for us because when that, when that happens, when a guy just boils over like that and loses his mind, it's usually pretty quick. It's usually like, oh, you know, whatever happened, I didn't like it. Now I'm going to unload on you. And if he had just been cool about it, he may have ended up getting what he wanted.

Well, again, you know, this is where the maturity process in men comes out because men are going to get upset anytime life tells them they are a beta male.

Yeah, well, everybody gets upset when they get rejected. That's universal.

And well, that's just more than just getting rejected. That's just the idea that you are not Right.

Well, but the other thing too is like women are not, we are not like sitting there like, well, alpha, beta, alpha, beta, alpha, beta. I mean, you know, we are just like, not feeling Ron today. I mean, you know.

No, I mean, when I use those terms, I don't want to say pejorative terms, but it's—

Well, you're not wrong. It's just that for us, we don't necessarily look at it like that. And people tend to, when they catastrophize about relationship things or when they exaggerate, it's that they put themselves into a non-desirable category and then they get upset that they're in there, but they put themselves in the category with their thoughts.

Right. And this, when you start talking about this, you're right. Women don't go around thinking about it like that. When you start talking about the whole alpha-beta male thing, that's really just to put a term on a, on a biological response to somebody, to be honest, or biological response to yourself. Because when I say, uh, every guy is almost terrified of being pretty much, uh, put in the beta male slot, that's an evolutionary response that we have. Because we— again, if you go back to the very beginning, if you're not the guy that's catching the most, if you're not the guy who is the most valuable in the tribe, then that means you're going to be on the low rung of the totem pole in terms of when we start, you know, divvying out resources.

Yes.

Right. And so you're naturally going to have a nasty reaction. When I say beta male behavior, I just mean the guy who isn't the top producer, who isn't the one who's controlling the resources of whatever element of life that is, right? Whatever arena of life that is, so to speak. And why I say it's so important for guys to understand about themselves is because, like I said, rejection, uh, still again, because most of the time, even now in 2019, guys are still the majority in terms of us having to go out and ask women out and talk to women first and all of that stuff. You know, even online, you're still going to want to shoot them, you know, slide in the DMs or shoot out the messages first, except you're on Bumble. Right. But the point is that rejection for you as a guy, uh, and just anything that says that you are not that from an evolutionary standpoint is something— if you don't learn how to separate that, if you don't separate these 2 operating systems— because the guys get in trouble when they don't know how to separate them.

Yeah.

When they, when they, when they They miss those checkpoints of life that give you the experiences that you need in order to, to, to start to learn how to separate the two, then you will get probably the most heinous men on the planet, are men who just can't separate the two. These, these are men that will just constantly be stuck in a place where they don't ever know really how to respond correctly to situations. I mean, you could even And say that's really what the president looks like right now. You know, I mean, I don't care what your political leanings are. It's just the fact that when you see somebody who just constantly doesn't know how to—

Just triggered all the time.

Just triggered all the time. That's what we're talking about. Guys who, you know, who are— because you can see that guy at the bar. It doesn't— it's the same behavior. Every girl has met that type of guy. Right. Every girl has dealt with that type of guy. Every girl knows exactly what that is. And again—

Well, it's scary. I mean, it's a scary experience for us.

It is, you know, and I've seen, you know, I've seen that firsthand. But again, when you start talking about or bringing this back to chemistry and how all of this fits in with this, it's the weirdest thing in the world because on one hand, I see how important it is for women to have that for a guy. But when it's unreg— I don't say unregulated, doesn't sound right. When it's mismanaged, uh, it can get into a— get women to a really bad place. But as far as the fellas are concerned, you cannot negotiate desire. Like, you cannot negotiate desire. You cannot negotiate this. And so all of you right now, most of the guys I know who are— who really struggle with this, especially a lot of guys. You go online, you see the message board, you see those angry, bitter guys. It's because they don't understand why they've been able to negotiate their mother's love, but they can't negotiate this.

Well, and also the misconception that they are in fact negotiating their mother's love when maybe that's not the case.

No, of course, because it was never something that had to be negotiated.

Like it was already existent. But if you believe that you have to flip the light switch 100 times before the lights turn on, you're going to do it.

Right. You never, you never were conscious of the fact that she already loves me. She loved me from the moment she learned she was pregnant. It was never—

And if you had any problem getting her love, and then you noticed that actions you took got more of it, then you're really in trouble. Right. You know, because it's like, people aren't worried about air and water until they don't have any. You know, you, you have a problem with air and water, you— it consumes your day, right? You know, just like love, like, you know, parental love is like that. Like, if you have their approval, you don't care about their approval. You don't have their approval, you spend all of your life trying to get their approval in different ways.

Right.

So people do that in relationships. Like, they will— somebody will truly love them. They will love them with every bone and fiber in their body. And they won't be able to absorb it because they don't think that that's the case.

Right.

Like, and so they'll drive that other person away because they're like, well, yeah, I did the whole time, but you started acting crazy. You know, it's just that, it's that recognition, the recognition that if you have a resource, you don't notice it until it's gone. And then if you think you don't have a resource, you're going to get in a needy place where you're going to end up not having it.

And this is why— this is what is normal. This, this is the state that guys naturally live in. We naturally live in this state that it doesn't exist until we produce it.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah.

And so that can be good when you're talking about a business, right?

Yeah.

It doesn't exist. Now we can produce it. This is how— this is how production has been made for men from day one. You know, the guy who looked at, you know, a bird and said, you know what, I wonder if I can make a plane.

Yeah.

You know, thought of a plane and started going down that process or going down that road. But where this gets us really tripped up when it comes to women is that, again, we don't understand that it's— it's— we, we apply the same process to that, and it's gonna have— it has terrible results to us more times than not, because again, we are coming at it from the standpoint of nothing is there and we have to create Yes, yes, that's true.

And so, and in a situation where we invite you over too, right? Like, woman is the one who signals that you're welcome in our space. So we've already decided you're at least welcome here for the moment. We might change our mind, but the point is that you got invited over here, so you now have to produce when you show up, but you also got invited over here, so you have to assume success.

And that's the thing, because we don't recognize— uh, this is why men tend to be more, uh, conservative, right? And a big principle in conservatism is just the fact of, I don't want anything handed to me, right? I want to— right, I don't want— you know, which is very much a very masculine behavior.

Kind of self-defeating, sometimes.

Right. And it can be, absolutely, because you're talking about, I don't need You know, I wanted— and that's just ego, you know.

Self-reliance. Yeah, self-reliance. And I get it. And, and I also come from a very self-reliant background myself, so I understand.

It's very healthy in a lot of ways, but it— there's some things in life that can't be— that have to be given, right?

And yeah, the being allowed in the container is one of them, right? You know, it's really hard. One of the hardest things too about experiencing men sometimes is that When they don't understand that you just don't— like, that they've put in enough effort for you to be fine and happy, and that, like, they can stop working because they're valuable. You know, like, you're here, it's valuable to me that you showed up, and that's what I need from you right now. Like, I just want you to be in the experience, but they are so, like, focused on producing, they can't actually see that the moment is, like, what's most important to us. So it can be really frustrating because it's like, Okay, if you just put the darn, you know, shovel down, please, you know, and just be here and experience us together, like, relax, you know, we don't need to worry about that right now. That can be really, really hard for us to understand. And it can seem very much like it's an act of like, like you don't care about the woman's feelings when you're so in that doing place, because the only reason you're doing it is because it would help in the feeling space. But we don't always understand that. So it's like, well, okay, I think it's great that you want to mow the yard right now, but if you could just focus on my eyes, that would be wonderful.

Yeah, see, we don't understand that, you know. I mean, no, because to us that is— that's so going— it's so, uh, goes against our nature, right? And that's what's happening because what's— when guys are not doing something, because for us there has to be a reason.

Yeah.

Again, this is why guys struggle. The only time you hear about bad boys are from men. You don't hear about bad boys in terms of being talked about.

No, because we have the chemistry for you, so we're pissed, but it's like, well, here he is.

Right. And guys—

I mean, you know, the articles I've written on bad boys have done well and women have responded to them, but we kind of like nod in recognition. We're like, well, okay, yeah. You know, it's guys who get upset about bad boys.

You know, and to me, I— it's so funny because I'm like, I try to tell you all the time, like, once I see that chemistry element in a girl where she doesn't have it for a guy, where I know she has it for somebody else, don't— just forget, you know?

Yeah, just give up. Just over. Don't even bother. Let it go.

Yeah, because, yeah, again, it's— we get so mad about it because we don't understand why nothing was— he didn't do anything.

Yeah, how is he deserving this? He did not work for it.

Right, just like you were talking about how we— it's— it can be annoying to be with a guy who's in that space where he keeps trying to do something. And a lot of women have said that. A lot of women said this reason why they broke up with their boyfriend, a lot of times they'll just say it was just, he was just too much, right? He just kept trying.

That's a sad situation. That really, that one makes me so sad because he's like, just with a little bit of guidance, that can work out fine, right? Because you have good raw materials. Like, he's trying to do stuff. So that situation makes me really sad actually, because it's like, oh, oh, if you only knew. Like in 10 years when you're hoping somebody won't be lazy, you will wish that you just molded and shaped rather than discarding that man who was working so hard for you.

That's funny because a guy I knew who actually learned about this element of, of, of dating of women, he learned it because there's one day where he was like, he had to do a double shift or whatever, and then he decided to go to the gym afterwards. work. And so by the time— then his, uh, his girlfriend wanted to go to dinner. And so by the time he got to dinner, he was so, so dead tired that he literally just didn't say anything because he was just so tired.

Yeah.

And he said it was funny because she wanted to have sex that night and she was really into it. Like, she really noticed the difference. He didn't understand why. It's because he would— he was too tired to try and produce any result. And so he was just sitting there listening the whole time, just kind of nodding and just—

She thought it was great.

Yeah, she thought it was great. Because he was, you know, she's like, I never felt more connected to him. And, you know, he was listening to me and I had his full attention. And all what happened, he just, he was wore out. Yeah. But that's what, that's what this pro— this is what the example of this is. Like, men, it, it gets to a point where, again, it's not about not being able to produce and not being able to stop doing that, but a lot of that is driven by our belief that that alone, that without that, what are we? Who are we? What do we have to bring to the table? We don't understand chemistry because we don't understand love, desire being something that you can't negotiate, being something you can't produce, you know, more times than not. Again, putting aside the fact that you can flip a girl, you know, or that element of it, but just—

Well, the corollary is that there's no force on earth that's going to make a woman attractive to you who isn't attractive to you, right?

You know, we understand that within ourselves, right? But again, it goes back to how all those— the equivalent of what Disney movies to us growing up were— the Prince Charming, where it was just everything he was doing was getting a positive result from this girl.

Yeah.

And so when you go out there and the guy who didn't put any effort into it gets the positive result Well, you have 2 options. You know, you, you process that or you get angry. Because for men, there's only 2, only 2 modes.

Yeah, you do have 2 ways to go.

We have 2 ways to deal with stuff that isn't favorable. We deal— we have to deal with it internally and then talk about it when we're ready, or we get angry.

And, you know, sometimes both, but you know what I mean.

Sometimes both, you know, depending on the situation.

Angry, then process.

And so again, it's, it's, it's an imperative that, that, that guys understand. Because when guys get this, what I see happening— because I want to give you like even more of an example, because a lot of time you may be listening to this and you might kind of get it, but you really don't know what that will actually look like in reality. Because guys who get this, they— it's not that so much that they stop pursuing women, it's just that they stop trying to to create it. Does that make sense? They stop trying to create that attraction. And so it's—

It changes the reason why you're doing things in a very fundamental way.

Absolutely.

Like, it's a— yeah, like in women world, it's a little like when I get people to stop trying too hard, it's— and trying too hard in all ways, like we just— what it does is it makes everybody relax and then You know, actually connect, and that all works out really well.

All right, because you want to put your energy in the right place, because guys are always trying to produce something, so it's always requiring energy. So we're always, you know—

We don't— we do not think about that, right?

We have this big— we wake up with this big ball of energy every day, and it has to go somewhere. That's probably a perfect metaphor for our sexuality as well. We build up to a certain point, and it got to get released one way or another. Right. So, uh, it's, it's— so when guys put that energy into the wrong thing, they get really upset. We get really upset when we waste our energy on something that doesn't reciprocate, or the value, the ROI isn't—

Yeah, that, yeah, that is true about men. Like, the— if you're do— putting all of your doing into something and not getting something out of it, it is a very upsetting experience.

Right.

And it's upsetting for people, but I think that we don't think about it in the same way.

No, I mean, you don't.

And I'm trying to think about like how we do think about it, but it's different. It's really different because there's less of a like a goal in mind. It, you know, when it comes to like things that we're doing in a relationship, like we do not make you dinner with a goal in mind most of the time.

All right. Women tend to function like a diffused awareness. Like everything is just— everything means something and everything means nothing all at the same time.

Yeah, that's like you just explained, um, chaos and feminine energy.

Everything, like you said, it's not so much of buying the house, it's beautifying it, right? Creating the atmosphere, the environment that is pleasant to be in.

So it feels good. Yeah, so we can enjoy ourselves.

All right, but as, as guys, when you— because it's important for you to recognize if a woman has chemistry for you. Uh, it's— I can't stress that enough. If—

Well, and the sad part is when guys like back away and get sad about this. Like, because this happens, guys like freak out and run away when women have a lot of chemistry for them. Oh yeah, because it's scary. We have— there's— we like want to consume you. There's nothing in life The container wants to strangle you and like let all the air out of it.

Remember, the average guy doesn't get touched. Like, not even touched like through— I mean, a guy can go a long time without even being touched. I'm not talking about sexually, but just a hug, any kind of form of physical contact. I mean, and so a girl who has chemistry for you, all of a sudden you have this energy that is— you don't—

You get squid on your face. Right.

There's nothing in life that really prepares you for that kind of energy. And so most guys don't know what to do with it because at first it feels like responsibility.

Yeah, and a lot of people back away and they give you a whole talk about responsibility. All right, and just one thing to remember, women, is that if a guy does that, you just— you can wait him out. Because if you like let off the gas on the chemistry and just leave him alone, sometimes he'll be like, oh, I actually enjoyed that, I just didn't want you to strangle me.

Right, I mean, sometimes it takes us a little bit to get adjusted to it. You know, because it's usually a shock. I don't care how good the guy looks. I mean, when you get a girl who has true chemistry for you, that's going to throw you off for a second because there's nothing— you're, you're not— that's nowhere near your normal in any way, shape, or form going about your daily life as a man.

No.

And so you, all of a sudden, you have all of this attention and this, this, this weight almost that you're not prepared for. And so most guys do run because they, like I said, they don't know what to do with But women, you have to be careful in this chemistry mode because it can— it's very masculine energy.

Yeah, it'll strangle them.

And so a lot of guys will run and not be attracted to it because it's very aggressive.

Yeah, well, that's what— that's the— this situation, the root of the advice to lean back, which is really a Rory Ray concept originally, the coach Rory Ray, the root of that That advice is all because of this phenomenon, which is, you know, let him come to you, sit back, like, and the reason we even need that reminder is because when we are that interested in you, this is what we do.

Right.

It's just a biological prerogative, you know, go and conquer him, make him yours, put him in the container, you know, strangle him.

Well, I heard a woman say, Whatever you have to do. Get a man, keep a man, make him act right.

Yeah, like, like he's like a science project, you know, like, oh God. I mean, it's— I mean, but the point, the point is not that we are out for anything negative when we have these feelings. It's just that we get so excited when that happens, because it doesn't happen to us all that often.

Oh, no, it's not. It's not a thing that necessarily— because again, it's—

It's just biology getting all, you know, excited. I mean, I mean, it's really excited biology, all, all wanting to make babies with you. And, you know, if you don't want babies, that's a scary experience.

Right. Because if it's pushing you towards a guy who isn't reciprocating any of that, then that is, you know, danger zone on the highest level when you come into a woman. Right. But again, as a guy, Because guys will, will say they want this. Most guys will hear this and be like, oh, this is wonderful.

Just wait until you get it.

Because most of the time it happens, happens with women that you're not attracted to. Because guys act themselves when they're around women they're not attracted to, just like women a lot of times will not act like who they are. Because again, when you're around someone that you're attracted to, It all gets wacky. Yeah, you naturally are going to— they become a trophy, right? They become something that needs to be—

Trying to lick their face all the time.

Yeah. And so, because again, one of the most common things we get, common, uh, you know, sayings or whatever issues that we get are, why do all the people that I like don't like me? The people that like me, I don't like.

Yes, yes. Oh yes.

Well, this is why. Because again, it's When you're around somebody that you're attracted to, you're naturally going to function in a way that says, I'm trying to bring this person in. When you're around people you're not attracted to, you don't want anything from them. And so you're being—

That's incredibly powerful.

It's incredibly— the most attractive— that's why we always say, when you say, well, you know, some things are just cliché, but these things actually mean something. You say, look, the most attractive feature you have is authenticity, because that's ultimately what a lot— what brings on a lot of this chemical attraction to you, because When a woman can actually see what she's getting. See, one of the biggest things I realize women are afraid of is to be lied to about where— I mean, if we're talking about just strictly from a biological standpoint, you know, who's— that you are who you say you are.

Yeah, because then we have bad sperm and we have to get rid of that.

Exactly. Except nature is raw. I mean, nature is— it doesn't play. Like, nature has no chill about Any of this politically correct stuff that we talk about.

No, we don't give a shit about that.

No. Tinder, online dating is social Darwinism at its finest. It's just raw. It's raw.

Well, we can have opinions about that, but that's wonderful. We don't, you know—

Genes don't care. Do you fit my biological ideal? And that's obviously going to be different for everybody. It's going to be different for you at different stages. A lot of times. But again, uh, guys will get all happy when they hear about this because there's like, yeah, I'm only gonna deal with women who have chemistry for me. And I was like, well, okay, if you want—

Good luck to you, sir.

Yeah, if you want to go down that route, because most guys would— again, even if you're thinking of it, even if you're prepared for it, when it shows up, it, uh—

Going lots of weekend trips.

Yeah, it's— you're— it's something you're gonna have to know how to How to, you know, balance even out. Because again, you won't have a relationship with this person because it'll just be this high that will—

Well, unless she has a lot of training, like unless she's really done some work and can manage it, because like I train people to manage this.

Well, look, hey, hey, this way. The only times I've seen this be like exactly what you said—

It's manageable. It's just a mess. I mean, it's hard to do.

The only time I've seen women who've been able to manage it have had to really be intentional about it, put it that way.

Right. Well, and the other thing that helps is to have the guy already be in love with you before you feel this way about him. Exactly.

And that's like, you know, if you—

this is one of the reasons why if you're not attracted to him at the beginning, it can be really helpful. Because if you don't have that chemistry for him yet, and he's doing— and he really likes you, and he's doing the work to get to know you, then it can be very good if you get this kind of chemistry with him after he's already fallen in love with you. Because then it's okay. I mean, it's still kind of off-putting, but it's not as bad as if you have this for him and he just met you. Because that's really hard to manage. That's really like doesn't work very well. But it works more than you like him, and then all of a sudden this comes on for you. That works fantastically. And people get married and they put cute pictures on Facebook.

That's funny because that's— but at the same time, this is where a lot of times our, I'll call them sexual strategies, kind of hit, you know, because no guy, no person is telling guys to look for a woman like that. No woman, no guy is telling women to, or telling, no guy, no like guy dating coaches or guy advice people are telling men to look for a woman that you love more than she loves you initially.

Oh, well, that sounds horribly depressing. Well, but the thing is that if the guy picks with his eyes, so if it goes how it's supposed to work, it works very well. Because if the guy picks with his eyes, the woman picks with her ears, which is how we pick out women. I mean, we pick out men well. We do not pick out— if women go out and they try to pick with their eyes, they get into this situation. If they pick with their ears, then they— it all works out perfectly.

Right. And guys get in trouble when they, again, when they go into it with this, with their ideal, their idealism. I didn't realize how idealistic guys— we, I mean, we live in the world of idealism. We have a—

Which helps though, because you will forgive a lot of things because of that idealism.

Oh, I mean, it can get guys in a lot. I mean, my God, like, well, yeah, talking to men, we're talking friends over the years, the The hardest battles I've had with men, oh my God, I can't even— the hardest battles I've had with men, with my friends, with me, has been when we've been in our idealistic state and someone— and it's ruining our life, you know what I mean, in the time being. And the guy is trying to get us out of that, the frozen lake, you know, metaphor. It's like you're telling— everyone's telling you, you know, but he's just so like, no, it's— I mean, it—

My standards are so high I can't meet them.

Yeah, it's, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous because we think you fall in love the same way we do. You know, just men and women do this to each other all the time. We think we're— we think, you know, just by default that we're like each other and we're not. We are completely different. I mean, you— yeah, but—

Well, and the thing about negotiating that is understanding that it doesn't mean that anybody is wrong about the way that they pick out things. No, I mean, what works for them, because you just have to understand the other side. You don't have to necessarily, like, agree with it. You just have to understand that it's different and then accept that it's different and operate with it being different in your mind when you're going about your relationships.

Right.

You know, if you can understand somebody, then you can get to a place where you can have a much better relationship with them. Rather than thinking that they have to conform to your ideals about how it should go. That doesn't work all the time. I mean, like 100% of the time that fails.

Right, 100% of the time. You know, someone asked me like, do I trust women? I say, well, I trust women to be women. You know, I mean, it's—

Well, and also blind trust in really anybody isn't necessarily a helpful thing.

Right. I think you have to trust that, again, understanding it So it's always better to be aware than not, right? To be conscious of something than ignorant about it. But this is important for you to understand because for so many men, I think this is— this should anyway shift your energy into where you're placing your energy. Sometimes all you need to do is just take what you're doing, all of this 80% that you're putting in this element, put it over here, and you could have complete Completely different results. Because—

Oh yeah, that's very true.

It, you know, men spend so much energy trying to negotiate desire that I wonder what they could produce if they just, just cut that and relax. Just relax on the issue, you know? Just like, no, that is not— that is just— that's never going to be the way. That it's never going to produce the result that you are looking for because you cannot do that. And it's not your fault, it's not her fault. She cannot control that she does not have Chemistry for you, right?

Yeah, yeah. And when we tell you we don't, we really don't. They don't.

You don't. Like, you know, it's just not there. When women don't have it for you, I'm telling you, you can be in her friend— I mean, guys, it's, it's amazing because guys will be doing this for like 5 years, 10 years.

Oh yeah, it's the kiss though. Like, yes, that, that really tells us whether we have it or not. Yeah, it's— so that's how you know. If you've kissed her and then she says she doesn't have it for you, then you know it's over. That's it. Go move on. Like, you could flip her over before the kiss, you know, but until the kiss, and then after that, we know, and it's— that's it. And we mean it, like, and we don't want to hurt your feelings, but we can't, we can't do anything about it. Like, there are people that I wish I had chemistry for.

Right.

I literally, like, over the course of my life, I've been like, you know, it would be really great if I had chemistry for you because you're fantastic. But no, like, darn it, it's frustrating. Like, we don't like putting, you know, friend-zoning people and not being— we would love to be attracted to you if we were sometimes, you know, because a lot of the people that would want that or was, or were hoping to flip us over, like create a relationship, are the ones where it's like, darn it, you know, I just don't feel it for them.

Absolutely. And that is the number one And it's like, that's what breaks the matrix for guys. That's what has guys— this truth right here. When guys get this, this, you'd be surprised how almost traumatizing it is for men.

Really?

Yeah, because they just like, when they really understand this and they understand that it just was never going to happen, that they can't— what they were doing wasn't going to change this, because a lot of them don't even realize this is what they truly are trying to change. A lot of them aren't going to be able to verbalize Yeah, they're like working on her, still working on it. Right. Unless you're obviously aware, educated on this, this type of the subject of evolutionary psychology, most guys don't understand that this is the whole time what they were trying to do. Why don't incels just go to prostitutes?

Right. Yeah, we were talking about this after the call last time. Yeah, you're right, they don't, because they want the actual experience. They want the whole thing.

They want genuine desire.

Yeah. And they've given up on getting it and have become bitter and then spiraled.

Right. Because everyone keeps thinking it's about sex and involuntary celibacy. That's the whole, you know, that is the term incel comes from, right? It's involuntary celibacy. But that's so—

Which is so funny because it's like the most defeatist idea ever.

Right. And it's the most wrong idea ever because it's not even about the It's never been about the sex.

Yes. Try to kiss her early on. I mean, I don't mean force— everybody who's listening, I mean, try— if you're trying to date a girl, like, move the process along. Try to kiss her, try to move it into the physical realm. And then if she isn't into that, then you know, and you can move on and move on. Move on.

This is the crescendo of this whole conversation. This is how you as a man will be able to completely change the dynamic of your relationship process because you will have so much more energy and attention for other opportunities with women because you're no longer spending it on trying to negotiate this desire. You're no longer trying to, to do this anymore. Like Elizabeth said, once you know early on— because you'll know quickly if a girl has this, if she's not already chasing you— because a lot of times this is one of the You know, girls will chase you when you're in— when she's in this mode. But let's just say it's not on that level initially yet, and you—

Or the girl doesn't— or the girl knows better than to chase you.

Oh yeah, she might just— she might just know better.

Because I'm not ever gonna chase you, but I might want to lick your face.

All right. And so if that's not— if the chasing isn't happening yet, like I said, go out there, you know, prove— I'm saying push the physical, but I said, and get— try to kiss her.

Yeah, put yourself in the The cue, try to do it.

Physical realm, because trust, when that's not— when that's—

Don't wait for her to kiss you. That's dumb. You'll wait forever. Especially if she doesn't think she feels it for you. That's the thing is we don't think we want to kiss you at that point. Before you've flipped us over, we don't really think— like, I've sat across the table with really nice people and been like, yep, this is it. Okay, we're never gonna see each other again. And then they, you know, I end up marrying them. So, but that's what this does. So, you know, as long as they're willing to, like, keep, you know, pushing that ball across the line, then they might get somewhere. And, you know, but you can't do that if you don't try to do something physical with her, you know, and if she doesn't want to do something physical, you will find out. All right. If there's anything that might suck for you, but at least you will know.

And I will— again, one of the things that the show requires is like, or me doing what I do requires, Elizabeth and I both doing what we do requires constant self-examination, right? We're constantly thinking about our— you know, you're constantly having to think about your own situations and your own behavior and what's happened in your life, you know, personally and all that. But one of the things I've done, a lot of things wrong in my Oh, me too.

Yeah, like, let's get out. I mean, we'll have 5 more hours if we do this.

Right. But if there's anything I've done right that was almost kind of natural for me, I don't really know why this was more of a natural thing. Maybe just kind of how the girls I've talked to when I was really my— the first like 2 or 3 girls that I talked to, like really talked to when I started to actually hit that like 12, 13 years old. Yeah. had genuine desire for me. And I realized that, that, and because they had that initially, it became my default. And so that became my barometer.

Oh, you started accepting the idea that they would want you.

That, that was my normal. See, most guys don't start out that, and I realized why wasn't this something that I—

You got early spoiled, but not in a good way.

Right. I got spoiled. And so to me, it was always strange. Because like a lot of times they're thinking like, you don't really have a lot of the issues that, you know, we're having, or you don't seem to struggle like that. I mean, I struggled just in kind of different ways, but I wasn't having a certain problem that a lot of guys around me were having. And I now I realize because I just don't get involved with women who don't have genuine desire for me. And I realized it wasn't because I was just so smart or so special, it's just because of my early experiences. It created that— what, that's what created my normal. And so I didn't even see it. Like we said earlier, you don't see what's normal for you.

Yeah, it's the air and water thing, right?

So to me, I thought that's the way it was supposed to be. And most guys think negotiating desire is the way it's supposed to be. Just like they don't see it as negotiating desire, I didn't see it as that I wasn't, you know what I mean?

Right. Yeah, you already accepted that you were already the main show. No problem.

Exactly. This is why it made me arrogant. It made me a lot of ways that I've had to tamp down on different things. It had nothing to do with me thinking I was so cute or attractive. It was just, I was just used to being responded to a certain way.

Right. Totally. And that, yeah, I had a similar experience early on and then like went through. It's like where you accidentally do something and then you can't reproduce it for a while. So there was a long time where I was like, what did I do? What was it? You know, and then I had to become a coach to figure it out. But, but those early experiences where you just, you know, you're like natural, it's like beginner's luck, but with relationships.

Right. It was just one of those things that I just, you know, got, I would say got lucky with, with just, you know, just the right, it got sent to me that way. You know, a few times early enough that it just caught on. And it didn't, you know, to me, I was just like, well, why are you— so a lot of times I was going through my life like, why are you doing that? And I didn't understand. I didn't understand why, like, you were— a lot of guys were doing the things that they were doing. And I genuinely didn't understand. I wasn't trying to be—

Me too. Yeah, totally.

I just didn't understand because it didn't seem— I didn't have to do any of that.

Right. It's like, well, you weren't working too hard.

That's what I always thought.

You are— that is not going to be working well for you because that is too much.

All right. And that's what it always looked like. It looked like you were always trying way too hard. And I don't— and I didn't realize that because a lot of times I would be in that situation, I would respond in some way where essentially I was saying, it looks like you're doing too much or working too hard. And then like a lot of my guy friends just kind of look at me, they kind of look at each other and just kind of respond to each other like, the hell's What's wrong with you?

Like, what are you talking about?

Like, this is— and I thought I was the weird one. Like, wait, so wait, I'm supposed to do that? And so that's where my confusion growing up came from, because I thought I was supposed to be doing more than I was doing, even though I felt like I was getting responses and results that I wanted pretty much just fine, you know what I mean? But I didn't know that, you know. So let's kind of just totally give you an inside of some— some—

Yeah, well, so, um, People used to catch wild mustangs by ignoring them.

All right.

You know, like, so, like, and they must have discovered this by like just getting tired of chasing them. So they couldn't catch them by chasing them. And they finally, you know, kind of gave up and they realized that the mustangs would just follow them right back to the corral. Like once they weren't paying attention, once they didn't care, once they gave up that desire. Suddenly they had a trail of horses behind them.

Exactly. And see, and that was like the first time I made a phone call to a girl. I was probably, you know, almost at the end of high school, you know. And that was strange to me because I don't— I didn't understand why this girl wasn't calling me, you know what I mean? I didn't understand.

But look what you did. You started pursuing her when she didn't pursue you. You started pursuing her, right? Which is what everybody does. This isn't male Or female, it's just human. Like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I was the main show. What is happening?

Right, exactly. You know, I didn't understand that that wasn't— it was weird. I remember, I still remember how weird it felt to do that. And I didn't like it. And I didn't—

But you still did it.

But I did it. And I realized, well, a lot of times, no, at that point, especially when I started becoming more of things and started learning and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I started having to do certain things intentionally. Like I told Elizabeth a long time ago, like, I approach dating extremely intentional because I have to, because my default to not to do anything that's common for a guy to do, because that wasn't my normal. That wasn't— that's not my default. My default is not to like, oh, let's go out and hit on girls. I think I don't— I've never had—

A useless Right.

It seemed weird. It's like, why would you— like, for long, I didn't understand the idea that you think you could just go up to some girl and like ask her out and like that work out well. It seemed ridiculous to me, uh, the thought that that could work out that way well for you, you know.

You're like, no, the women come to you.

Yeah. Oh no, they like you, they call you, right? I didn't understand. Well, back in the day when they actually had to call people, that to me, that's what, that's what happened. And so It's one of those things where when I had to learn how to become a grown-up, you know what I mean, and I had to learn different things, I was like, well, the thing about this is you don't get to choose who comes to you. That kind of put me in more of a female paradigm with not liking the aspect.

Yes. Oh gosh, there's a big, big male coach who I won't name who says that you want, you know, he tries to get the guys to make the women come to him. I mean, or make the women come to the men all the time. And the hard part about that is, is that he doesn't realize that you're throwing women into their masculine when they do that, right? And so you're going to end up with very masculine women. And that is a fine experience, except that you may not enjoy that experience.

Exactly.

So if you, as a default, man, if you're waiting for women to call you, you're going to get masculine, masculine women. And there's nothing wrong with masculine women. They are just masculine women. So understand that if later on you're like, why are you not more feminine? That's not fair.

And that's one of the things that I had, you know, kind of by default learned how to do, because you're right. A lot of times when women would come to me, now that I'm aware of this, that you're coming in that masculine energy, right? When someone's pursuing you, you have 2 options. You either run or you submit.

Yeah.

Right. And so I learned how to do was when all I needed to do was a woman to come, then I knew how to flip it and allow her to be back in her feminine. But again, that really wasn't intentional either. It was just because that was my normal. I had to learn how to flip the energy back over or else it wasn't—

Or else it was going to be really super uncomfortable. You have 2 dudes sitting on the couch burping at each other.

And that's what happens. You just get 2 dudes talking and both of you are just trying to do the same thing, right? And so again, this is something to where a lot of guys would love that. I hear so many guys that they would love to be the pursuer, you know, to help People like write whole threads on Reddit about this, a gazillion upvotes. And I'm telling you, as a guy to where that, that has been my normal, like, it's not—

Be careful what you wish for.

Be careful what you wish for because it is not what you think it is. Because guys think it's how they feel right now, just with that one thing different.

This, this literal conversation is why Bumble doesn't Right. Bumble doesn't— it flips the paradigm too much. It doesn't work. I mean, you know, I haven't actually gone on record as saying that it doesn't work, but it does not work. Don't do it.

It's funny because I always thought it was the best option for—

Everybody thinks that. It's horrible.

But now that we've talked about this, I'm like, it's gonna— because most guys don't know how to do that. Most guys will not know how, because what guys—

Nobody knows how to do that. This is a very, very There's a very small portion of the population that have any idea how to reverse or change polarity in a relationship, and most of them are coaches. So, you know, that's why coaches tell you to go ahead and pick your energy source and stay in that one, because it's much easier to do that than it is to change course halfway down the stream.

Right.

That's hard for us to do, let alone for like people who have no idea what's happening.

That's true, because it took me like 10 years to learn how to change polarity. I had to do it by survival.

Right, because you're like, why am I getting all these things I don't want?

Right, exactly. I just keep getting women that I'm not interested in, and it's that— that can't be the case, right? So I didn't understand what was, what was wrong. And then I kind of, again, on accident, it flipped one time, and I realized, uh, okay.

Yeah, that's true.

This is how it happens, because a lot of times guys are wanting girls to pursue them. So stupid. To, to avoid The fear that the girl's not yet for rejection. And so, yeah.

Well, I, you know, I understand not wanting to be rejected, certainly. Like, it makes sense to me why logically that would be a really nice position to be in. The problem is it changes the polarity so much that once they get that, like, once the girl actually— the sad part is once the woman actually pursues them, then they like smack her hand, right? You know, like, she comes over here, she does exactly what you think you want, and then you're like irritated that that's what, you know, Like, you act— men act completely different when women pursue them.

Oh, absolutely. Because most men finally get the first understanding of the difference between male and female energy. Yeah. And they— most guys have no— would have no idea. If we talked about male-female energy, that would just go right over guys. Say they have no idea what you're talking about until you talk about it.

I did it at a business talk, like, not as a business talk, but at a business conference a couple couple of months ago, like, at length, because I was frustrated with it. But yeah, lots of people were confused.

They don't understand why you're uncomfortable with it, why you respond, why you're responding to it the way you are with distance and running away. And it's kind of like trying to keep it at arm's length is because you're being exposed to your own energy. You know, if you're a heterosexual male, you're not going to be attracted to that.

No. Well, and also that, I mean, if you really want to friend zone a guy and not hurt his feelings, all you have to do is reverse the polarity in the Oh, that's it.

That's all you really— all you have to do.

I just pursue him. Like, it's like, just start pursuing him. Just flip it over, start pursuing him, start making plans.

I don't know if I should tell people that.

I mean, but the thing is, you'll drive him away naturally and he'll never know.

That's true though.

Yeah, you just, you just change the polarity. Start challenging his ideas, start, um, you know, like giving him a lot of suggestions.

Well, for the fellas out there, I'll give you this little tidbit for, for who are really wanting to be more in the pursuit seat or the one being pursued seat. You can't let, you can't let women pursue you. You want to let them initiate.

Yes.

And there's a difference because most guys want the pursuit to feel safe that she's interested. And so they keep needing her to do because they really want to be pursued. They just want to know that she likes She'll get angry. And as a guy, you have to know the difference between initiating and pursuit. If you're trying to change polarity, all you should need is the initiation, and then you should take it from there. But again, that's just a little beginner's—

Yeah, that's a great— that's a really great tip. And also, like, if she pops up at all, then you take the reins and start making plans and doing So she shows up at all, then you, you know, can, can flip the polarity by then taking charge of the situation. But you can't wait for her to always initiate, or like, oh, you know, 75% of the time she has to text you, because, you know, you might never hear from me if you try to do that shit, right?

I mean, don't, don't play with this, right? Oh, because to me it's a gift. To me, I can't— I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna lie, I am addicted Like, I can't deal. Elizabeth told me I was spoiled the other day, uh, as a result of this, because I, I'm— that's, to me, it's, that's, you know, having steak and trying to go back to Spam. Like, I don't— I, I can't really deal with anything else because I've learned how to manage it. I learned what it looks like. And so, because to me, having that energy from a woman is like the greatest thing on the planet. Because it has so many benefits, as you know, a lot of different things.

But really everything.

Yeah, it really does. But like I said, as a guy, if you're not comfortable with that experience, then you'll never be able to really experience the quality of it and what it can really do for you and what the experience you can give to a woman who's feeling On that'll about you. Yeah.

Well, and if you cherish, if you cherish a woman who's treating you like that, like you will end up with a great relationship.

Oh my God. It's, you'll, you'll never want anything else. You'll never want anything. You'll, I will never, ever, ever again, ever deal with a woman who doesn't seem to. And again, I understand there's going to be women that I like, that I want, that won't have that, that won't respond to me like that. And I got to be okay I'm okay with that. This doesn't show up every day. You could go a while without having a woman respond to you like that. But to me, it's worth it because I've learned— one thing I've learned from women over this is that women are about quality and guys are about quantity. And one thing that I've learned—

Just like biology.

Just like biology. I mean, when I was at my friend's house last weekend, one of the girls was on Bumble and I was watching her do Bumble. From a female's, you know, and it was fascinating.

Oh, I bet.

It was fascinating.

We should do a whole episode about this particular thing. Like, we should just put a pin in this and do an episode about this experience with watching your friend undouble.

Oh yeah, I, I, I, I'm so down because I learned— so I was talking to her. I mean, everyone was laughing because I was, I was stunned. And like, she was just sitting right next to me. She was like, okay, you know, like, he looks cute here. Then she goes to the second picture, but you don't look cute this picture, you know. And so she goes left, and then she goes to another guy. No, no, no, she likes the picture. She goes down, she reads something, likes that. Oh, he has a dog, but I don't know, he's with this guy right here. I don't like pictures where there's 2 guys, you know. Tell your listeners not to have, you know, the guys not to have profile pictures with other guys. I'm just like, you know, just blown away just by the, the, you know, how—

The sheer level of standards involved.

Yeah, the sheer level of standards. And it was You know, it's funny too, because another guy was there and he had his Bumble and I had his phone, and it was just, you know, first pictures, left or right. Oh, she's cute. She's cute. She's cute. She's cute. I mean, that was it. You know, it didn't go any farther than that.

No deeper analysis.

No deeper analysis. And, and, uh, and so, uh, but yeah, I'm—

Yeah, we scour those photos. We look at the backgrounds. We look at what kind of t-shirt you're wearing. We want to know if you have an earring or not. We look at all of it.

The greatest thing is when she liked that one photo, but then like the second— guys, you're losing it in the second and third photos.

I'm telling you, put up the one great photo and move on.

I'm telling you, you better be careful because so many guys she went no on.

Don't start with the crappy photo because we'll look at all of them. So start with the crappy photo and then get better. Oh man, yeah, you gotta start with the horrible, you know, you in the morning photo and then move to something like where you're wearing a tuxedo and you will get more Yeah, you got to be careful of that, guys, because again, like, she's got to kind of—

you can tell she was just swiping the guys that were her type, and, you know, or guys she liked, something about their picture, their personality she liked. Then once you go into the second and third, that's where guys were losing it. Like, all the guys— a lot of guys was getting a no strictly because she went to your second and third photos and it wasn't— something was wrong, something was off about it. It's like, he looks cute in this picture, he doesn't look cute in this picture. All that kind of stuff.

Well, yeah, well, I don't know, coming from a position of having been on a lot, I mean hundreds of online dates, there is like an averaging that goes on in your mind where like you know what they really look like based on the average of all of their photos. You know, we'll be attracted to this person most likely based on, ooh, that one's not good, but this one's better. Okay, so this is like in the middle and you can decide based on that.

All right.

Yeah, but we definitely think about it all more.

All right, I think that's good for tonight. I think we got kind of hours of it. Yeah, we went through a lot of different elements. So this is probably something you're gonna have to re-listen to and do all that. But I like it because I think we got through a lot of different elements of chemistry and men and women that I think will definitely be helpful.

So yeah, I agree. This has been a fun one.

Absolutely. So yeah, Yeah. Thank you guys for tuning in. I hope that helps. You know, I hope you got— someone's eyes were opened, and I hope that you start to understand yourself a little bit better. To me, that's all I care about. I'm not really concerned about you really understanding other people as much as kind of knowing you. So I'm glad hopefully that helped in that endeavor. But you can go to our website, theoriongrouppodcast.com. Elizabeth, you want to let folk know about all the things in your world?

Yes. tracktheone.com is my website, and that's where you can find me, as well as several other authors who are wonderful. And I hope everybody has a great afternoon, day, morning, wherever you are. Wherever you are. Thanks for listening to us.

Yes. Thank you, Elizabeth, for coming on and hanging out.

Thanks for having me. It's always a wonderful time.

Absolutely. So again, thank you guys. Enjoy the rest of your, like Elizabeth said, day, night, evening, wherever you are in the world. Excuse me. And, uh, we will see you, talk to you next time. Thank you, Elizabeth.

Thank you.