Sales Dead Zones, Scam Fears & Results Anxiety Keeping You Small with Jess Williamson

Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen, the podcast that helps you to stop hiding, claim your worth, and build the most vibrant version of your life possible. Thank you so much for being here. Hello, my love, and welcome to Seen. And I am so excited for my next guest to join me today, Jessica Williamson, who is an incredible award-winning business mentor and mindset coach. and she has scaled not one but 5 businesses over the past 9 years. And Jess and I met at an amazing lunch a couple, a couple of months back, hosted by Tony Beiche in Brisbane. And we got to sit beside each other, which was really nice to get to know Jess. And we really connected at the start over this concept of sales being a service. And I just loved everything that Jess had to say on that topic. And I just knew I had to interview you you on the podcast. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. I actually have a funny story. So right after we met at that lunch in Brisbane, I started getting all these DMs of women sending me this video of your ads, and they were saying, Jess, I thought this was you. And I was like, oh my gosh, I know her. This is such a small world. We literally had just met, but, um, I think we've got to be each other's doppelganger.

And that's so funny. It's funny that you say that because we met at the conference, the Golden Brands Conference, and the year before I was at the conference as well and someone came up to me being like, oh my God, I thought you were Jess Williamson. And at the time I hadn't met you yet and I was like, who's that? And they were like bringing up like your profile to show me and I was like, oh my God. I think I was like, oh, she looks great. But 'cause I've seen you doing all these amazing things and I was like, well, not me, but I mean, I'm not offended because she seems like an amazing person. Um, but yeah, and then it was so cool to meet you at the lunch and yeah, just all the amazing things that you're doing. And, um, yeah, it was like, you know, you're running events, hosting retreats, and I love the fact that you mentioned, you know, you are an introvert at heart as well. And I think another thing we connected on was like the fact that, you know, we had just witnessed a couple of people that had, I guess, not been selling and kind of almost wearing it as a badge of honor and just talking about how it's such a disservice to women doing that because like almost like using not selling is like playing this moral high ground. And not only is it like doing yourself a disservice when you do that, but it's also like teaching women and reinforcing that message that like sales is somehow bad or dirty or something that you shouldn't be doing. And so I just loved our conversation about that. So can you speak a bit more to that topic? Because obviously you're the sales queen.

Yes, okay, so I think there's so much taboo when it comes to selling, because selling has this bad rap around. When I think of a salesman, I always think of a gym bro, and it's like the gym people call you 50 million times, and it almost feels like they have a gun to your head, or they've cornered you, and it's like, you must pay me money. And it almost feels like robbery when people think of sales in a traditional sense. But selling is literally providing a solution to someone's problem, and money gets to be an exchange of that. And I think what we connected over was this narrative online where people said, hey, I'm not going to be selling. And then all the comments were, oh my gosh, what an angel, what a, you know, saint for not selling. Thank you so much for not selling to us. And it instantly, I felt this pit in my stomach because if we're perpetuating that you're a bad person if you sell, then less and less women are gonna be confident to share their services publicly, to feel deserving of actually earning money. But thirdly, if you know you have a solution to someone's problem and you're saying, you know what, 'You're not allowed to buy it. You continue over there suffering with whatever problem you have. I'm gonna keep it to myself so that I can keep my ego safe, so that I cannot be judged by other people, so that I don't look greedy or selfish.' I think the most selfish thing we can do is not to sell, to try and keep ourselves safe. So I'm a big advocate. We need to be selling and Everyone deserves to have money as an exchange of delivering an awesome product or service.

Yeah, so good. And I have so many questions from this because do you think, firstly, do you think it comes from not fully believing that you can help? Like, do you think it's deep down that they're like, oh, like, I don't, I don't, I don't fully value myself and what I'm doing and have that self-worth?

Yeah, there's so many different pieces to this, and I go deep with my clients on mindset because there is no one-size-fits-all. So some clients that I speak to, their biggest fear is being seen as greedy, arrogant, or a scammer. And so their mindset or self-sabotage is more around judgment, and if they don't sell, then they get to avoid anyone ever seeing them as scammer. Now, if you're selling and you start earning a lot of money, particularly as women, someone in the world is going to think you're a scam. Um, I love Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. I don't know if you like reality TV, but, uh, Amanda Francis has recently been cast on the show, and I am seeing the narratives online about her that she's a scammer, that she's a fraud, all of these things just because people don't understand how she makes her money. And so women kind of get painted with this label when people can't make sense of it. So I think one would be the fear of judgment and being seen as a scammer, or yeah, and then the second part is, okay, if someone buys from me and then they're disappointed in my service, then I have to hold their disappointment. I have to hold them wanting a refund. I have to hold, and the more quantity you sell, you're always going to have someone, and it's not always indicative of your service sucks, but the more quantity you sell to, of course you're going to get someone who's disappointed. So again, people want to avoid— and I think it again comes back to being seen as a scammer, because if someone's disappointed with your service that they've paid money for, part of their mindset is going to be, you are a scammer, you scammed me out of my money, I hate the service, or I hate the product, give my money back. So there's the judgment there, but Then on the other side, selling itself comes with so much pressure. If you're putting yourself out there saying, "I'm the best, buy my offer," you're talking about yourself, and then no one buys, then you have to sit in the disappointment, then you have to sit in the rejection, then you have to sit in the self-doubt of, "Can I even make this business a success?" 'Cause if you're not making sales, then you actually don't have a business. You have a very expensive hobby. And so the stakes are even higher if you sell and you make no sales, because then you're questioning your entire being and whether you should continue showing up in your business. So there's just so many different pieces that create a resistance to selling. But if we can stop making it about us, the rejection, the judgment, the failure, the mindset, and start just realizing that people out there need what you have right now. It's actually your duty or your responsibility to sell the heck out of it. And then it's your audience's responsibility to decide, do I wanna spend my money there or not? But I think we try and take control over, oh, they probably can't afford it, so I won't sell to them. They're not ready for it, they're too beginner, so I'll ignore them. But it's like, Why are we discrediting other people? Why do we think we have that much power over how they spend their money? It's kind of crazy, but it always comes back to self-preservation.

Yeah.

When we avoid those things.

I think also there's like a misconception that people see other people online that, you know, they make it all look very easy or they're kind of like not showing up selling all the time, but they are still selling, maybe like their email list or in the DMs. Yes. But you don't see it, for example, in their posts. And they have this misconception that like, 'Oh well, these people aren't selling, I don't want to sell,' and there's a way of doing it without the selling. Yeah, and there isn't.

No, there's always ecosystems behind the scenes, and usually the people— and for me right now, a couple of years ago I was selling every single day on my stories, I was selling in every single touchpoint. Now I am still selling every single day, but that might be behind the scenes in the DMs because I have an automated DM flow that welcomes new followers, or it might be me sending 2 to 3 emails a week that maybe people aren't subscribed to my email database, or maybe it's like small call to actions that then lead into a whole funnel. So there's— you have to be selling every single day, whether that's through automations, whether that's manually, um, if you want consistent sales. You can't expect to sell for one day in the month and have consistency if you're not consistently selling.

It's so true. But then I guess it's like, how do you do that if you don't want to have a different offer every day? How do you keep it fresh? And how do you, how do you, how do you think about that?

Yeah, I actually think, you know, sometimes having one offer, there are so many ways you can speak about that one offer in so many different angles. You could weave in stories, you could weave in your daily experience, you could weave in conversation you just had with a client that's so many different ways to reinvent it, and I would say the best way is to not sell something new every day. Even with my clients who have maybe 3 offers to sell, they're like, Monday I'll talk about this offer, Tuesday I'll talk about this one, Wednesday I'll talk about the other offer. I say give it 2 weeks for one and then change it, because otherwise people get confused and they don't have enough repetition to build a memory that, oh, you sell this thing. So people do need quite a lot of exposure to even know what the hell you do.

It's so true because it's like people think, oh, I just posted about this yesterday or whatever the day before, and it's like probably like 10% of people have seen that. And most people consume like content in the, in the overall feed. They're not going back through all of your posts like a storybook. Like they're just seeing it mixed in with everything else. So it doesn't matter if you posted the same thing 2 days ago because they're not looking at it side by side. It's just us that knows that there's 2 that were being in a row about the same thing. But like, most people aren't going through your feed. Yeah, being like, oh, yesterday you posted the same thing. They're just seeing what comes up in the overall feed and then exactly consuming it there. So that's so true. And like, how much do you think— how much of it is like a mindset thing versus a strategy thing of I don't know, maybe taking the pressure off, like having an offer that is somehow easier to sell or things like that.

Okay, most people get bought into this low-ticket everyday sales narrative, right? So mostly I sell high-ticket. That means I might get 1 sale a month sometimes. Sometimes I get 20 sales. Like, it differs and it depends. Where most people, I guess, go with I'm just starting out, I'm wanting to build momentum, I'm going to sell a $20 offer or a low-ticket offer is you get dopamine boosts every time you make a sale, even if it's $10. So they might be earning $1,000 a month, barely covering their bills, and I make one sale and I make $20,000. So the difference though, and the reason why people get addicted to that is the dopamine. If you're making 10 sales a day, even if they're $1 each, it feels the same as if you're making a $20,000 offer every single time. So we often have to be okay with the quiet days, knowing that we only need one sale to make X number of dollars. But it's hard because our brains are wired, particularly in the age of social media, fast-paced, the internet, all of the things, our brains are wired to be addicted to dopamine. So it feels really, really scary when you start lowering the quantity of your sales, but actually increasing your prices. Because if you go 30 days with zero sales, you're now sitting in what I call the silent zone. Your brain says, okay, 5 days have passed, we've made no sales. Okay, now 10 days have passed and we've made no sales. Are you sure you can do this? Are you sure you're capable of making? Are you sure there's no one out there wanting it? Everyone's saying no. Everyone's saying it's too expensive. Then we start stacking all this evidence on why it's not possible for us, and the inner voice gets loud. But it's on the 31st day that we make the sale. And so that's a very hard cycle to get out of. But yes, low-ticket offers have their place as well, so it can be strategic. But if people are doing it because they think it's easier to sell, that's not a business strategy. Yeah, that's a fear-based strategy.

Exactly. But I love what you say about like it could be leveraged as long as you know that that's the case, because I do love what you said about evidence. And in some ways, maybe it could be good to just see that as evidence, knowing that this is kind of hyping me up, and then I'm going to sell on the back end of that offer to make the real cash. But at least it's giving you that momentum and that energy boost.

Yes, you know, 100%.

How do you keep that energy going when you— for example, if you're not doing low ticket and you're just doing high ticket, and it is a month that's slower and you get a sale at the end of the month, whatever— how do you stay motivated and like how do you keep your mindset right?

Yeah, I always say the results that you're seeing today are from your past self, usually 3 months ago, and the results that you'll see in 3 months are from your current self. And so where most people go wrong is they show up on social media or sell or talk to their audience for maybe a week, and then they don't see results, and then they pause. And then after they've paused for a while, they build up the courage again, and then they start again. And then they don't see results again, and then they pause. But if they just kept going, it's kind of like driving a car. If you keep stopping and starting, it's going to take a long time to get to 100 Ks an hour. But if you keep going despite not seeing the results yet, it's going to show up. So it's kind of having that blind faith in a way, and knowing that it really is just physics. If you keep pushing the car, it's going to go faster and faster and faster, and you're building momentum for your future self. But too many people are worried about that instant gratification that they're not willing to persevere or push through. So I always think from the future self. If I keep showing up today, the results are going to show in my future self, and not getting discouraged because the results that I'm seeing right now are from my past self who wasn't doing anything. So that's a mindset that I always come in with. But the other part is stacking the evidence. So the evidence may not be the sale has landed in my bank account yet. But the evidence might be, well, I gained 5 new followers today. That's 5 new people who are interested in what I'm speaking about. Then maybe you start conversations with those 5 new people, and now you've got conversations flowing. That's evidence that you're moving towards a sale. You can't have a sale unless you're having conversations or getting more eyes on your business. So I tell my clients to journal on it, —because if you just think about it in your brain, your brain will just argue with itself. It's like, "Yes, we're moving forward," and then your fear is saying, "No, we're not. You've got no sales yet." And so it's really stuck in that cognitive, both our imagination. Whereas if you write it down physically with your hand, not typing it, you're activating your kinesthetic, so you're writing it, you visually can see it, and it's on a piece of paper that's physical, which means it creates something in your brain that says, this is truth. I can see it, I felt it. And when we're activating all those senses, it makes it more real than just something we're thinking in our brains. So I get them to write down, I did 5 conversations today. One person said they might be interested in the future. That's evidence that people want what you have to sell. So it may not be the end outcome, but if you can pull in all the evidence that your goal is guaranteed, then it's stacking basically more evidence on the side of yes, it's possible, versus all the evidence that you've built over 30 years of your lifetime that you're not capable of it. And all we have to do is get more evidence on the yes side than we do on the no side.

Yeah, I love that so much. And just for anyone listening or watching today, I mean, today is the 29th of December, and you know, you've come in here to do a podcast in the middle of the Christmas period. And then for me, like, I'm not even selling anything right now, but I just love my podcast, and I love this journey. So it's just like, I just want to highlight that, like, it's not always, as you said, about what's happening today, you know. But it's like, you don't have to be here. It's the Christmas break, you know. You could be at the beach or doing whatever it is, but you're like, you're, you're, you know, you're coming here because you've got something to say, and you're building your brand, and you're, you know, wanting to connect and all those things without necessarily having an outcome from today. And same with me. And I think a lot of times people are so caught up with that, like, they need that outcome today. Like, if they're going to do something today, that they need outcome today. And it's so important to think more in the future, as you're saying, because a lot of people are just so caught up in that, like, it didn't work today, I didn't get a— like, I didn't get a sale today, you know. And it's like, I love what you're saying about building that evidence, because then at least that's kind of making a, a nothing day, so to speak, it's making it more tangible, and that there are things. It's almost like gratitude as well, it's just like reinforcing the good things that happened that day. Yeah. Is there a point that you would say it's like, because obviously, of course, you need like motivation, consistency, all that stuff. How do you differentiate from something that you're like, actually, this maybe isn't working? You know, like, say people have been like, I don't have any, I don't have enough budget. And you've got that all month. Like, how do you know when it's like, let's just keep pushing because I know the next sale could be a $20K sale versus, okay, maybe this is like feedback. Yep. Okay, a few things.

If you're jumping around from strategy to strategy to strategy, that's what I call shiny strategy syndrome, and usually it's people outsourcing, right? So they're saying, okay, it's not working, it must be Instagram, I'm shadow banned, it must be my audience, my audience suck, they're not advanced enough, they're not wealthy enough, they can't afford me. And so we usually outsource outsource the blame or outsource the power instead of saying, how am I potentially creating this reality? It's so much easier. And that's why then we say the strategy sucks, I need to change the strategy. And every single week they're jumping around, which again, if we come back to the car analogy, you're stopping and you're starting. And then you're getting out and you're getting in another car. And then you stop and start. And then you wonder why you're not building that momentum. And so I always think To be honest, usually it's because people are not committed enough. I would say 9 times out of 10. Any strategy can work. There is no magic strategy pill, right? And so what I would say is if you want something to work, how willing are you to sit in that dead zone? How willing are you to sit in that moment where nothing is working? Most people are not willing. To sit in the discomfort. And like I said, any strategy can work. So I don't necessarily think it's the strategy. Like let's take Alex Hormozi's strategy. I don't love them, but if you message enough people, you are going to succeed. If you think about ads, if you tweak and optimize your ads enough, it is going to work. If you think about posting on social media, if you go from posting once a week to 10 times a day, you're gonna figure out what works and you're gonna get there. So it's almost like there's no one strategy that is the best way, but it's if you want something to work, the only way it doesn't work is if you give up or you stop. So yeah, I would say stick at it through that dead zone, and if it's really still not working after you've sat through that for a good amount of time, then maybe you can reassess. But one of the best examples of this, when I was starting my first business, which was a swimwear brand, I knew that I wanted to be stocked in global retailers all over the world. Now, the only way to do that is to get in touch with the buyers personally and get them to buy your stock for their stores. And so I manually— this was before ChatGPT— manually created a list of 1,000 buyers that I stalked through LinkedIn, or I found contacts, or I stalked them somehow and added them to a spreadsheet, 1,000 people. Then I manually emailed these 1,000 people, and over the period of an entire year, I followed up with each of them 5 times each. So that's 5,000 manual emails because I wanted to personalize every single one. I didn't send it through an automated software. I manually emailed them. Now, I got zero replies for the first 6 months. Zero. And most people give up after 2 emails, and they say nobody wants it. Most people give up after 2 weeks. I had 0 replies. Then by month 6, I had 1 response, and they said, your products suck, absolutely not. So I now had evidence that I sucked, but I kept going anyway. And so then for the further 6 months up until the year mark, I was just following up with these people. Zero replies, I didn't even know if they were reading it, I didn't know if they were receiving it. 5,000 emails over the period of a year, and at the end of that year, I had another reply, and they said, we've been watching you for the entire year. We can tell you're serious because you did not give up. You gave us updates on every new collection you had. We've been watching, and we can tell you're actually serious. 'cause they would get so many emails from people who are running a hobby business or who are not committed, and people wanna do business with people who back themselves. So they could see that I backed myself fully, that I kept going even though they weren't replying, and they didn't know I'd emailed 5,000. They just knew that I was emailing them multiple times. They said, we would like to order $30,000 worth of your product, stocked all across the USA. And that was only possible because I kept going. And I didn't let my ego, I didn't let my emotions, I didn't let, oh, poor me, I putting so much effort in, how dare I waste my time. I was like, I want this outcome, so how do I get to the outcome? I keep going. If you put something in your GPS and you stop halfway, of course you're never going to get to the end outcome. So as long as you keep going, you'll eventually get there. It might take a year and 5,000 emails. Um, if you find mentors and people who've walked that path, you can usually shortcut that and not have to take a year. But if you're willing to do that, you'll always win. You will always win because most people give up. Yeah. And because I kept going, I got the thing that I wanted.

Yeah, I love that so much. That's such a powerful story. And I'm curious as to like your thoughts on kind of purpose and following, you know, your mission. Because at the end of the day, what that story shows is just the perseverance that that takes. And you'd want to really fucking want something to do that, you know. So I'm just curious your thoughts on that, because maybe like sometimes what I see is that people are just creating a program or creating an offer because is someone else is doing it on Instagram and they think it looks cool, or they think they're going to make a lot of money on it, and without fully connecting to what do they— what do they— because as you said, every strategy works. What do you want, you know? So can you speak to that? Yes.

Okay, one, I think to succeed in business, you can't be chasing the money. You have to love what you do. Like, I often say I would pay someone to do what I get to do every day. I love it, and most people are chasing the money, and there are days I don't love it for sure. There are days I can't be bothered or I don't want to show up, but I do it anyway. And if you're starting a business because you've heard you can make a lot of money, you're not gonna persevere in those moments because the money is not worth the pain. The money is not worth the perseverance, the self-doubt, the moments you want to give up. but if you love something, then you're gonna be willing to endure that. And so I often say, don't worry about what's the best and easiest way to make money, 'cause then you're gonna create a self-paced course when you actually love connection with people. And now you've got no connection and you haven't built a business around what you love. So something I am so passionate about is I get my clients, even if they come to me and they say, Jess, I wanna build a self-paced course, That could work. But I always say, why? Why do you wanna build that? And if their answer is, well, so-and-so said it's the best way to make money, we're not doing that. We are not doing that. Yes, you could make a lot of money, but if you don't love teaching and being hands-off and delivering in that format, it's never going to succeed. So I always dive deep with my clients on what are your limiting beliefs that are maybe creating this as the path because you're fearing rejection and judgment from working one-on-one with clients, or whatever thoughts might come up. Then I look at what is your definition of success? Like, what does your lifestyle look like? If you don't want to be on calls 24/7, then let's not go down that route. But then I also look at what are your strengths? What do you actually love doing? Because people online preach you cannot do one-on-one mentorship and have freedom. To have freedom, you must do self-paced courses. I'm like, I love one-on-one. I love going deep with my clients. I love the intimate relationships and being able to dive deep and see their blind spots and know who they are at a soul level so I can guide them in that depth. But I also need freedom because I'm a projector in Human Design and I can't be on the phone 24/7. So what I do, I create a business model that allows me to have maximum 2 calls a week, and I then have to price it accordingly. but most people are not willing to set their prices where they need to be or position their brand in the way that it needs to be, because then that's where the limiting beliefs come in. Oh, who am I to charge that price? Or who am I to say I'm the best? Or who am I to be this person? So there's so many pieces to the puzzle with your subconscious patterns, with your definition of success, and then your strengths and weaknesses. And then if you can build a business around that, you're going to be winning because you're going to love it and it's going to feel easeful and it's gonna make you a shit ton of money because you've designed it around the life you want as well.

Yeah, I love that so much. I saw a post recently with Dan Martell and it said something along the lines of like, I used to think freedom was getting as much time back as I possibly could, but I now see freedom as doing something that I would do even if I wasn't paid. Yes. And it's like, that is such a nice, refreshing reframe because at the end of the day, no matter what you do, there's still never 100% freedom in the sense of you can't just not do anything. People aren't going to pay you to breathe. Yeah, like you have to do something, even if it is minimal, 2 calls a week, whatever. You still have something to do. And if you have this mindset of seeing that thing, whether it's 2 hours or 5 hours, 10 hours or 20 hours, as this thing that's like dragging you down or holding you back, then it's not even about the length of time, but it's just going to make you feel energetically like stifled. Yeah. So I think it's so important to look at like it's not just a time thing. It's like, is this something that you really would want to do even if you're not being paid for it?

100%. Yeah. Yeah.

And I love that you're building a business around that. Like even going on the trip to New York, you know, you're doing a retreat there because you wanted to go there yourself, you know, or yeah, just like your mastermind, having it around like what you want to teach on each month and things like that. Yeah. So have you always been like that intuitive, and like, how did that evolve for you? And also, do you have help designing out your business strategy, or do you just follow that intuition? How does that all work?

Yeah, I design my business strategy 100%. I just honestly, I make it up even. And I've always had mentors and people and, you know, help reflect my blind spots and things like that. Um, but even with my swimwear brand, from day one, I didn't have a fashion degree. I didn't know anyone in fashion, but I decided my Dululu mindset was I'm creating a global fashion brand. And so then my brain said, okay, logically I'm not going to sew it myself. If I'm global, then I'm going to have a manufacturer because it needs to be done properly. And I didn't wait until I went to fashion school to learn how to design. I just designed what I want and I asked myself, how do I communicate this to a factory in the most foolproof way? I made a spreadsheet. I didn't do CAD drawings and all the proper— I I did drawings, I drew it by hand, I wrote 2 centimeters on this strap, and then I sent it off, and it actually was more efficient. Then when I learned the real way to do it, I still did it my way because it was easier and it saved me time. So I've kind of always just looked at, this is where I am right now, this is the end outcome, what is the easiest way to get there that's gonna take the least amount of time, risk, and money, and let me do that. And so yeah, when it comes to my business now, I wanted to run a retreat in Greece a couple of years ago. I hadn't seen anyone do that, especially not from Australia. And so I thought, okay, I want to run a retreat in Greece. Obviously I need a venue, obviously I need a price. Like, to me the strategy is easy, but so many people get stuck on the how. But I actually see the how as a basically self-sabotage because you know how, you know how to look on Airbnb, you know how to Google, you know how to post on your Instagram, but you're so fixated on the right way to do something that you actually don't do anything at all instead of just give it a go. If it doesn't work out, we can tweak and optimize, we can figure that out.

Yeah, I guess it's like people are scared of that risk. Like, what would you have done if you had gotten this beautiful villa and then you had no one sign up? Yep. —or 1 person or 2 people.

I sold the spots before I paid for the villa. So I sold 3 spots. Now I still do that now, not because I don't think I'm gonna sell it, 'cause I sell out my retreats in like 7 days, but I do it because I wanna come into selling from a grounded energy. If I've dropped $20,000 to $50,000 on a venue or expenses or something, or even if I'm creating a course, if I've spent 50 hours filming videos, investing in it, then when you come into selling, you're coming into the energy of this better sell. And even though I, I have pretty good mindset and I work on it all the time, it's still that tiny little niggle subconsciously. I want to come in and be like, oh my gosh, I am so freaking pumped about this offer, because people feel your energy. And so I sell the offer from that place first. I've done my research, I have venues lined up. If that venue got booked out, I've got a backup option. Because you don't want to sell and then be like, oh shit, now I make zero profit. That's not the vibe either. But I will sell 3 spots out of the 10 because those 3 spots usually cover the cost of the main costs. Then I'll book it in and then I'll continue to sell more spots. But most people are, again, are afraid that what if people find out? And I'm like, I'm gonna tell everyone. Like I've got it sorted and this is what I teach my clients as well. So why wouldn't I be fine with people knowing that's how I run it? Yeah, yeah, 100%.

And like, just another example of this that might be helpful for anyone listening or watching, it's like, so last year I did my first event and it was like a full day event. And initially I wanted to make it like really luxe, like really VIP. I priced it at about $1,500 or something like that. And it was like, you know, there was like there was going to be like content. They got a photo shoot, they got video shoot, like they got all this luxe stuff. And I sent it out to a couple of people initially, like I just had an offer doc and a couple of people came back and they were like, I would absolutely love to do it, but it's just going to be a little bit tight budget-wise. And then I was like, okay, instead of just being like, oh my God, no one wants it, it's too expensive or whatever. And I could have probably continued to try and sell at that higher price point, but my intuition just said I really want to like— because the people I reached out to were like perfect fits for it, you know? And it's like, I really want to make it work work for them and people like that. So I decided to like look at the itinerary again, make it half the price, and find a way to get all the costs down as well. Yeah. And like just make it a little— we still did photo shoots, we still did B-roll, but they were like mini shoots. Yeah. And so then I did that and then I sold that. So I think it's also like not taking things so black and white as like fail or not fail. Yeah. Like did it fail or did it not? And like can we just take that feedback and like pivot it slightly or redirect it a little bit? Like you get 5 people for the retreat instead of 10, you get a smaller villa. Yeah. You know, and just not be so attached to having it exactly the way that it was initially planned. Like, shoot, shoot for that plan for sure. But like, it's okay to, to have some wiggle room and to shuffle things around a little bit. Like, that's all right. 100%. Yeah, so I think that's something that I feel like people just get caught up on as well. So I mean, you've worked with so many women over the years. What do you think are the main things that like get in their way? Like, you've talked a little bit about that mindset, but what are the main things that have like really helped them to shift through some of these mindset blocks and limiting beliefs? And what are the main things that like people have done that have actually allowed them to have the success that they're looking for?

[Speaker] Yeah, something I'm big on is I go deep into subconscious rewiring and mindset and everything, but I tell everyone action first always. Because if you're taking the action and doing the scary thing before you feel confident, before you feel ready, before you've healed all your wounds and all of the things, you're then gonna have real life evidence. You can meditate all damn day, and I love visualizing and I love journaling and all of this stuff for tools, but if you're not taking the action that's gonna create real life evidence to one, show you that you didn't die and you're okay, and two, to give you evidence on what you're capable of, then you're never gonna shift that mindset. If you then have that self-doubt that comes in like, oh, you're not capable or no one wants it, and you're like, Well, someone's bought it, so obviously they do. It shuts down those beliefs straight away. And there's always gonna be an inner voice if you're playing outside of your comfort zone, but I think the piece that most people miss is just action. Sometimes my clients come back to me and they're like, Jess, there's just this last limiting belief I wanna shift, then I know I'll have my success. And I'm like, no, we are aware of it now. Awareness around your patterns, awareness around your stories, your narratives, your beliefs, is the golden nugget. Once you've got that, you take action in spite of it, I guess. So if your belief is, I'm afraid to sell because people think I'm greedy, we don't wait until we've healed that. It cannot be healed. We then take action knowing that someone might see us as greedy, but we're okay with that. And so action really is the, the number one key to everything. Um, a lot of people say, I need a sponsorship from Nike because I'm like, just do do it. Just do it. We're just gonna do it. And one of my clients, she had this fear around, um, running her first events. She built multi-seven-figure companies before, but when it comes to personal brand and events, it's a whole new level of visibility, of being seen. And we were on another one-on-one call, and I was like, so have you booked your event yet? And she said no. And she was like, what other limiting belief do I need to shift so I can do it? And I was like, no, no, no, We're stopping the call right now. We can use the rest of the call later. I'm gonna get off the call. I'm gonna give you the venue that I've used. Contact them. You book it in right now in the next 10 minutes, then send me a message that you've done it. She did it. She ran her first event. She made incredible sales off the back end. All it took was just no more bullshit. We're gonna actually feel the fear and do it anyway.

I love that so much. It's so true. You just can't beat like action, and that does— it just builds that like self-trust and self-belief. Yes. I was even speaking about this a little bit the other day, just even even small things, like that's a big thing, booking a venue for an event. But even small things that you say that you're going to do. Yeah, like I just realized, I mean, it was this kind of Christmas break and I just realized I had like about 20 things on my kind of like personal admin list that have been just there for like 6 months and just kept being added to the list and never got done. Yeah. And like my husband and I just like took a day or two and we just smashed out like all those shitty annoying jobs that like had just piled up like you know, all this organization and admin things. And I actually felt amazing after it. And I was like, you know what, that had actually been probably dragging me down a little bit because even though there's small things like, oh, I need to donate this box of clothes, I need to organize this cupboard, whatever. But it's like if you're telling yourself that you're going to do it and then you know you're not going to do it. Yeah, that starts— the more you do that, even if they're like little micro tasks, the more that you do that, you're reinforcing that you don't kind of keep your word and yes, commit to what you say you're going to commit to, even if it's just a tiny little thing.

Yeah, it shows up in everything. Even on the days when I don't feel like going to the gym, unless I'm really unwell or something like that, I will always go purely for that reason, because it builds self-trust in the way you lead yourself. It shifts your mindset, but it also shows— even if you're not sharing on social media or anything, people feel your energy. That you're someone of their word. You're someone I can trust. You're someone who trusts yourself, therefore other people can trust you too. And that has a huge inflow into sales because people feel your energy. If you don't trust yourself, then people are not gonna trust you and they're not gonna pay you money. So it definitely starts with those micro moments. If you said you're gonna post on social media today, even if you don't feel like it, even if it's midnight and you've had a big day, I do it. Like, I'm not usually posting at midnight, but that's just an example. Like, if I told myself I'm posting on social media every single day, I will do it even if I don't feel like it. I'll find something, I'll find the energy for that 1 hour or that 30 minutes that I need, and I'll show up. Yeah, yeah.

Have you always been like that?

Um, yes and no. Have I always been like that? I've always been, some would call it stubborn, some would call it determined. So kind of yes, but I think in the past I would have been more lenient, such as I've had a big day, I've had too much on, I'll just do it tomorrow. But it eats away at you, and what I've noticed is that I'll do it tomorrow, I call it your energetic capacity. So I always, I teach my clients as well, it's kind of like you've got a balloon, you've only got so much energetic capacity, in your balloon. Now, if all the things that you're meant to be doing are taking up space, it gives you like this tiny, tiny percentage of energy to actually do things. Whereas I'm sure you felt this as well. You've had something on your list and maybe you felt it with your admin list. If you've got something on your list that you've meant to be doing and you're thinking about it all day, I have to do that thing, I have to do that thing, I have to do— the energy actually grows. It takes up more and more space in your mind, than it needs to, whereas if you just do it, you're like, oh, that took me 2 minutes, that took zero energy, that was actually so much easier than I was making it. And so I've learned over time, if I want to achieve more, I need to make things take less energy in my mind, which means getting them done before I have to hold space for it in my mind. Even if it's on my to-do list, it's still taking up that space in the back of your mind for 6 months or 3 months or sending that message takes 2 minutes. Yeah. Or booking that venue took her 2 minutes versus 6 months of thinking about it and holding that space.

Yeah. And I think that's such a good, like, mental model because I think it's about, like, utilizing the space better but also expanding the capacity to hold. And we briefly spoke about this earlier today. It's like you have to have the capacity to hold without getting overwhelmed. And that's like as much capacity as you have to kind of grow your business, that the energy and the capacity of your nervous system to like be able to hold all the things happening and, you know, not kind of caving to that. And I know you love reality TV, so I was sharing this with a friend the other day and I was just laughing at it. Do you watch the Kardashians? Yes. So I was like, I actually feel like I've got a spiritual message from the Kardashians the other day, which sounds so funny, but it's like Kim Kardashian, like everyone, like, you know, just makes fun of her and everything like that, but she can hold a lot. Like, I was watching the episode where like she had to go on trial in Paris, she was robbed, like all these crazy things. She's doing the bar.

Yeah, and then she had a death threat out and she was just doing everything.

She's like, but she's, she's fine, you know. She's very solid and she's not like very fazed by that stuff. So like her or love her or whatever you might want to think about her, she does, like, she wanted— she, she's openly said she always wanted to be this really big celebrity, and she can hold, yeah, all the shit that goes with it. So I think it's also, like, interesting to look at what you're saying that you want. Yeah. And then can you hold that? Because it's like, if you want to, for example, I want to speak on stage to, like, hundreds of women, do— but do you get scared talking to 5 people? Yeah. You know, so how do you— what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. So I tell everyone I used to be petrified. Like if someone gave me eye contact in the past, I would have spiraled. I was so afraid of being seen. And now people see me on stage in front of thousands of people looking totally unfazed. And I even have people say to me, "Jess, I don't believe you. I don't believe that you are a shy introvert." But for me, it took my first speaking gig. I actually asked for it. Early on in my business, not because I wanted a personal brand or I wanted to be a speaker. I just wanted free marketing. And so because I knew the means to the end, I was willing to endure the pain that came with public speaking so that I could get free marketing for my business at the time. And so it always comes down to, like, my life motto is: where there's a will, there's always a way. It just depends how willing you are to do it. Are you willing to to get up there and face potential judgment? Are you willing to get out of your comfort zone? Are you willing to sit up for that extra 1 hour so you can post on social media and get some visibility and momentum in your business? Most people are just not willing, and it's a hard pill to swallow. But if you're not having the success that you want right now, where are you not willing to hold the things that come with it? Um, and that's usually the negative side effects or the pressure or the responsibility. But for me, I did that first speaking gig. It was horrendous. I practiced for 4 weeks. I had sleepless nights. I had anxiety. It was absolutely a shit show for like 2 minutes of me speaking. But what it showed me was I didn't die. And I say that because your brain is only wired to keep you alive. We haven't evolved that much from caveman days. And so if you understand that your brain is just trying to keep you alive, what if we play outside of our comfort zone and we experience that? And although it wasn't the best speaking gig I've ever done, I didn't die, and now my capacity expanded. Then I spoke in front of a bigger crowd and I realized I still didn't die, and then my capacity expanded. Or I did something that scared me a little bit, and/or I invested more money than I I'd ever invested. And by doing that, you give yourself hard evidence that you can survive. You're okay. You're capable of that. And the only way to do that is to play outside of your comfort zone. So Kim Kardashian's example— she didn't start like— if she 10 years ago had a death threat out doing the bar exam for law, she had like a million— she was filming a whole ass TV show that she was acting in and produced, and she had probably 2 hours sleep a night. She has 5 kids. She— 10 years ago, she probably would have died, right? Maybe. But she's built her capacity one step at a time. So most people are not willing to, I guess, look like the beginner or fail or be embarrassed or be cringe or post 10 times a day with zero likes. And if you're willing to endure that, you always get to where you want to It's so true.

But how do you move through some of those limiting beliefs? Like, if there's anything that you're working through, you know, is it like reframing it mentally, like telling yourself something different? Like, if you do find those limiting beliefs and kind of that self-doubt creeping up, like, how do you navigate that?

Yeah, I call it gaslighting myself, and some people love it and hate it, depends your meaning on that. But you only have to gaslight yourself for that one moment. So whenever I get on a stage, like recently at the end of this year, I was booked to speak at a 3,000-person conference. Before that, I'd only done maybe 500 people. And so of course my nervous system a little bit is like, oh shit, uh, like this feels scary, right? Because again, the reason why we have that fear is 3,000 potential threats that might kill us or that are looking at us, that, that are there in the audience, all eyes on you. And so when my nervous system feels that, you only have to gaslight yourself getting to that confident state in that moment. And so even today, before I came here, I'm shifting my energy because I'm coming from holiday mode to, okay, presentation or, you know, speaking mode. Um, I always lead with my body first. So what I mean by that is if you start giving yourself a round of applause Suddenly your mouth smiles. You didn't make your mouth smile, but because you're celebrating yourself, something physiologically happens in your body. I love to put on my favorite music and have a dance party because you can channel your nerves into excitement for that moment. You only need it for that moment, then you get off the stage and then you can reground yourself. I'm not in a heightened state 24/7. Absolutely not. I can switch my energy into those states through leading with that. Sometimes even if you— and I would encourage everyone listening to try this— If you just start laughing, you know when you do, people say do a fake laugh and then suddenly you're actually really laughing. You led with your body first and then your mind follows. And it brings the joy, it brings the excitement, it brings the emotion that you're waiting to feel magically on its own. So if you can shift that in that moment to just get through that moment, don't wait until you feel comfortable with it because you should never feel comfortable if always playing outside your comfort zone. But I kind of shift that energy in those moments. And then once you've done it, now you have the evidence that you actually did pretty good, or you nailed it, or you got up there and you physically stood on the stage or posted on social media. And now you have hard evidence that starts to rewire your brain and the belief that I am capable of this. I am a speaker because I just stood on a stage. And so most people are waiting though to feel comfortable. Yeah, before they move, they're waiting to meditate all day, and then when they feel ready, they'll do it. But you actually just have to do it before you feel ready and just know that in that moment you're going to feel nervous, you're going to feel stretched, you're going to feel scared, but you just kind of jump out of the plane anyway and hope for the best that your parachute pops off.

Yeah, and maybe taking that expectation off ourselves that you do have to be like— look at what are you telling yourself and where are you shitting all over yourself, you know, that you should be prepared, you should be— have removed this mindset block, and just do it anyway. And just know that like everyone feels like that, because I think sometimes we can compare and think, yeah, that person's ready but I'm not, I need to be as good as that person or whatever. Yeah. Um, and so do you ever get a case of comparisonitis? And also, you know, just day to day, like how do you move through challenges even that come up with, like, you know, as you said, the more you sell the more kind of negative situations that can come through with that. How do you also separate that from like, you know, internalizing things like that?

Okay, so many things. Like, this is like a whole episode on its own. Um, in terms of— sorry, can you ask the question again? There was two parts.

Yes. So the— so one was internalizing, and then— oh my God, I've forgotten the first one already. I'm like, I can't keep up because everything you're saying, I'm like, I've got 10 questions on what you're saying. So let's start with the internalizing, and then I'll think of the next Also internalizing like the judgment and things. Yeah, or just like, you know, like the more you do sell, the more refund requests, or the more that someone doesn't have a good experience. Like, how do you move through that without internalizing and letting it like affect you for the rest of the day or going into the next thing you're doing?

Yes. So the only way to shift out internalizing— I'm not gonna lie, it still hurts. It's always going to hurt. And it sucks. It sucks if someone— you put your whole energetic being into trying to change someone's life, impact them positively, and they hate you for it. It sucks. It— I'm not gonna lie and say it doesn't. But the way to get better at it is to basically do shadow work. And if you're not sure what that means, is the only reason it hurts if someone says 'You're a scammer,' if someone says, 'You're a bitch,' if someone says, 'You don't know anything,' the only reason it hurts you is because there's a tiny part of you that somewhat believes it. If someone said, 'Oh my gosh, Jess, you're a green capsicum,' I'd be like, 'That is a while. Obviously I'm not.' So it wouldn't even faze me. I wouldn't feel in my nervous system. It's so ridiculous. It's not true. The only reason if someone says, 'You don't know anything,' is because there's part of us, a tiny piece of us, that potentially believes it could be true. And so what we need to then do is the parts of us that feel triggered is looking at where have we made that part of us wrong. So a huge part for me was I used to think I had to know everything, and if I didn't, I was not good enough. And so I had to then take the part of me that maybe didn't know everything. Nobody knows everything, not even Jay Shetty, not even Stephen Bartlett. Nobody knows everything. And so I had to take this part and say, you know what? I love the part of me that doesn't know everything because that part of me knows a shit ton about the stuff I know about, but it doesn't know everything. And rather than feeling like I had to prove that I knew everything or feeling like I had to cover up, if someone asked a question, I would try and make something up to not be seen that I didn't know everything. I would then say, you know what? I don't know. That's not in my zone of genius. You'll have to speak to someone else about that. Once I owned it and I said, you know what, I don't know everything, and I love the part of me that doesn't know everything because it allows me to have more energy for the things I do know, then it didn't matter if someone said I don't know everything because I'm like, yeah, I don't. It doesn't faze me at all because I've owned that part of me. It's only when we are rejecting— and that's what I would say shadow work, I won't get too deep into all of that now, but shadow work is basically just the parts of us the traits, the identities that we've deemed are wrong, and then we try and hide them away. And then when someone says, hey, what's that that you're hiding behind you? And you're like, oh my gosh, it feels unsafe because they've seen it and you've tried to hide it. So that's been a huge part, um, and I don't really feel it much anymore, but if I do, I always look at, okay, what part of me am I still trying to hide, and how can I own that narrative even more? Because if you own it, you'll be like, cool, I know.

Yeah, yeah, that's no problem. 100%. I think that's such a good point, and it's like so good to just look at those things that do kind of trigger us. Yeah. And I mean, what about— because I think something that I find a lot of clients are scared of when they launch something as well is, well, I guess it all stems from that unworthiness, right? But they're so scared of someone not getting results results or not getting the outcome. And that then shows up in them not selling confidently, them not posting confidently, or just kind of like self-sabotaging and not taking on a lot of clients because they're worried that they're not going to like get that result. Yeah, I do think like they're obviously— you have to put things in place to get people the best results possible, but how do you find that fine line where it's like, I've done everything I can, but also, you know, at the end of the day people have to come to the table as well. Yeah. How do you make sense of all that and how do you think about that?

Yeah, okay, a few things. One, you're not here to solve everybody's entire life's problems. And so sometimes we take complete ownership over every element. You only have to deliver results in your zone of genius. So that's one, is realizing that if you're selling a mindset program, you don't have to make people a million dollars. Yes, working on your mindset probably will make them more money, and you're allowed to say that in your marketing, but you're not in control of their sales. So that's where I think people are afraid of letting people down, that they try and trickle into things that are not their zone of genius, and then they feel like a fraud because they're trying to be someone they're not. So that's one, is stick to your zone of genius. Two, it's knowing that you only have to be one step ahead of the people you're trying to help. You don't have to be the number one expert in the entire world because that's impossible. It really is. So knowing that as long as you're one step ahead, there's people that you can help. But the main piece is knowing what's your responsibility and knowing what's their responsibility. And this is in psychology called separation of tasks. Your task is to create an offer that helps people and to show up and sell the heck out of it and then deliver on it, what you've sold. Not deliver the result, just deliver on what you've sold. If you've sold, I'm gonna teach you this in 6 weeks you deliver on that. It's their responsibility to implement what you've taught, to show up, to utilize it, and to get the results. That's actually something you cannot control. And when I first started coaching, I used to get so much anxiety if people didn't get results, because guess what? I made it about me. If they weren't getting results, I was shit coach. But then that puts me into a state of it's about me. Then coaches get this anxious attachment. Why aren't you doing the work? Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't— then shaming them, not knowingly, they're wanting to help, but unknowingly. And then the client feels anxious or avoidant. Then they, like, it creates this whole dynamic. As the coach or the mentor, you have to be grounded. It's not about you at all. It's not about you, and you're doing them a disservice by trying to control their results. So knowing the separation of tasks is so important because you have no responsibility over their results. What if their most favorite result of their year was they gained a bit of confidence? Maybe they didn't make more sales, but they gained so much more confidence that— For me, I did a program that took 12 months. I invested $50,000 in it. It was a business growth program. I didn't grow my business one bit in that year, but I gained the confidence that has made me millions of dollars now. I know that because I have this mindset. Not everyone knows that. So some people would say they're shit, I didn't get any growth, I spent $50,000, they're a scammer, right? Other people would see it through that lens. I see it through the lens of I made millions of dollars because of the confidence I built through this. So again, you have no control over how they perceive you. But the one question you can always ask yourself is if people showed up, up 100% to whatever it is that you're delivering on, and they implemented 110% of what you are delivering, would they get a result? The answer is usually always yes. Yeah, 100%. And so that in itself means that your program is fine. You don't have to over-deliver.

Yeah. And is there a way you can instill that mindset in your clients that will help them see things like that too? And take— because I think, I really think setting the tone and setting the energy of a container is so crucial. Yeah. And something that a lot of people don't even know about.

Yeah, I always have onboarding. So I will usually, if it's a group, I will do a welcome call. In that welcome call, I separate the tasks and I say, all right guys, I'm going to give you my all, I'm going to deliver on this, I'm going to be here helping, answering, but it's your responsibility to show up. It's yours. And I actually get them to agree to it. So just telling people something doesn't mean they've agreed to it or understood it. So I actually get them to commit, whether that's a yes in the chat box, whether that's a contract, whether that is is, you know, just acknowledging verbally one-on-one. I will always set that up because that's basically boundaries. It's setting the roles up, and usually that is setting your clients up not just to avoid your own fears and things like that, it's actually setting them up for more success because they know they can come in and ask you 20 questions a day if they want to. Maybe they're not allowed to, so you let them know, but if they don't have these boundaries in place, then they're not going to feel safe to to get the support or get the help they need when they need it. So I always make sure that's really, really clear. And then if I notice things are shifting, I will reset that as well. I have conversations again if I'm noticing the group or a certain individual is not showing up in or holding their side of it.

Yeah, and that's leadership, and that's like a credit to you, and that just shows like all the mindset work that you've done You know, some people think, oh, like, it's wishy-washy mindset work. Like, how is that tangible in the business? This is how, yeah, mindset work is tangible. It's like having boundaries, setting expectations, allowing yourself to feel safe in your own business so you can grow the capacity. It's such an important part of the whole thing. And we don't have time to go too deep into it today, but I just love that you also infuse Human Design into business. And I'm just curious, like, how did that first happen for you, and what have been the biggest shifts since doing that.

Yeah, I found Human Design a few years ago when I was on a retreat, and I was like, oh my gosh, my whole life makes sense. Um, for anyone that doesn't know what it is, it's basically the most accurate personality test you'll ever do. I know, but it's based on your exact birthplace and time. So it's not— I find personality tests, of course they're accurate because you've answered the questions, so it's based on your conscious awareness of who you are, and that just regurgitates the information in a different format. Whereas this is based on your birth time and place, and it combines astrology, Chinese I Ching, quantum physics, literally every tool in the world. So I'm a projector, I'm a 1/3 splenic projector, and I then just went deep and I consumed every piece of content in the world about it. And then I got certified in it myself, and then I actually ran a few projector masterminds because I was mostly intrigued in my own type, uh, because we're only 20% of the world and we don't work the way as the rest of the world. And so it was just so, so interesting, but I think it's important again that we can use tools like this to understand how should we be structuring our business, how should we be making decisions, how do we navigate challenges differently, what are our strengths, what are our weaknesses, and then we can again build our business model around our unique blueprints as well.

I love that so much. It's so fascinating. And I feel like we'll have to do a whole separate episode where I can just dive deeper into that with you because it's been such a huge, like, thing for me as well. And I've really noticed that the more I kind of don't live in accordance to the values within my human design, it actually really is when things kind of go wrong and pear-shaped is because I'm trying to do things that are like outside of that design. And so even though I've known my human design for years now, It's kind of like I knew it and it was in the peripheral, but I didn't place a huge amount of importance on it. But then every time I actually go back to it, I'm like, that makes so much sense. And now I'm like really making a commitment now that I love that I am taking it so much more seriously because I've just seen that it works, you know, it works for me. So yeah, it's so fascinating for anyone listening that hasn't done it. Definitely go look at your design. So yeah, I could ask you like 100 more questions. This has been such a great conversation, but I've got 3 long-winded questions to wrap up instead of short fire. They're just long. So the first one is, what can someone listening do to connect more deeply with their purpose?

I think just get curious. Ask yourself, why am I doing this? And then ask why, why, why, why? And if you can keep just digging, the question is is why. Why do I want this? Um, a lot of people think purpose means world peace, I'm doing this to change people. But your purpose could be I want to make a shit ton of money so I can go on more holidays in the year. It doesn't always have to be so I can give more all of my money away to charity, but it could be a combination of multiple things. If you don't know why you're doing something, again, you're going to lose momentum pretty quickly.

Yeah, and it's like, yeah, I love what you're saying about just be honest. Like, even if it is I just want to make a shit ton of money, just be honest. Like, don't try and just be like, oh, this is the noble thing to do, because that's where again it'll all fall down and not work, because it's not actually— it's not actually real. So I love that you're saying peel it back, peel it back, because so often people think their why or think that they want something because— and they might really think that's what they want. And it's happened to me so many times where you— I really thought that was what I want, but then when I got it and I didn't actually want it, I realized actually that's just society's kind of projection of like what what is the next stepping stone in life, or that's what success is.

Where people set goals, so they say, okay, I did $100,000 this year, next year I will do $150,000 or $200,000. And it's like they just add a little bit to their current reality instead of saying, if anything was possible, what would I actually want? Um, people put so many rules around what's possible, like, oh, I want to spend more time with my family, so I have to earn more, less money. Uh, what if you could have more money and more time with your kids? Like, why are we creating rules around this? But one of my clients came to me and she said, Jess, I want to be on all of these global stages. And, and I said, why? And I will always question them because I could say, cool, let's go, here's the strategy, I know exactly how to get you there. But I will always ask them why. When we dug deeper and deeper and deeper, her purpose was that she just wanted to be more present with her kids. And she didn't want to be on stages at all, but she thought stages equal more money, which then if she's got more money, then she could spend more time with her kids. But then when we understood kids were the number one, we restructured her entire business model to earn more money, have more retainer clients, spend more time with— and she was living that in 4 weeks, not 4 years that she thought she would have to build out this crazy personal brand. So purpose is so, so key.

Yeah, I love that so much. So the next question is, what can people do to connect better with their mental health and just to be in a better place? Like, do you have any daily practices, or what have really helped you be in like a better place mentally? Um, watch reality TV.

No, I actually love it. It's like my meditation. But, um, on a serious note, I don't meditate every day. I don't journal every day, even though I teach it. Um, I use it as tools. So for me, for my mental health, it's like, okay, if something feels like pressure, if something feels stressful, I will always just go into self-reflection. Why do I feel like this? What is creating it? What beliefs am I holding around this? I'll speak to mentors or— and, and kind of shift those in real time. And so I use it more so as a tool to bridge a challenge rather than I must meditate every day or I must journal every single day. So for me, it's more self-inquiry into why I feel like that.

Yeah, I love that. I'm kind of similar. I like— I say that I have like almost like a smorgasbord, like, you know, and it's like I've got all these different things on my platter and it's like, what do I feel like today? And it's like I've got the, you know, 10 to 20 go-to things that like make me feel really good. But I'm the type of person that if I was to do the same thing every day, yeah, I get bored. Yeah, there's certain things I do every day, like I do— I do do some visualization every single day, but then other than that, it's like maybe a bit of breathwork, maybe a bit of like grounding and walking on the, on the sand, like, but whatever it is, it's like still a means to the same end, but it doesn't always have to be the same thing as well, you know. So I love that. And then lastly, what can people do to get more visibility? Visible.

Well, visibility, people think is get more eyes. So let me go viral, let me get 100 million followers. But visibility can also be depth. How can you let people see more of you? Not so much how can you get more people to see you, but how can you let people see more of you? Because when you allow people to see more of your depth, maybe it's your vulnerability, maybe it's, um, your successes, maybe it's the behind the scenes, maybe it's just more of your personality that you don't share online, um, that's when the quantity comes. So I would just question yourself around what's something that you do that you're not allowing people to fully see yet, and maybe start there.

Yeah, so just being more comfortable being seen in general. Yeah, I love that. And that's, um, that's something that I like— something that came through for me recently was like, just like authenticity. Where did I— I felt like I was like, you know, either a mom or a business owner, and it's like, where can I just be like me. And one thing that's been like a challenge for me is like, I, you know, usually if I'm in business mode, I've got my hair done, makeup on, all that. And so like last week, for example, I recorded a podcast with no makeup on, my hair was a mess, which I never usually would do. But the whole reason for doing it was just to get out of my comfort zone and just to get my nervous system like okay with— like, there was no strategy behind it, but it was just a personal challenge. It was just for myself. It wasn't for anyone else. It was just for myself to be more comfortable. So I love that you said that. It's like, by being more visible to yourself and being more comfortable being visible, even just like out and about, or like I— in my podcast last week I joked, I was like, if you've got something like that, just do it. Wear no makeup. Or if you hate your belly, wear a crop top. If you hate your legs, wear a short skirt. Like, do, do something that you feel uncomfortable with, and then, you know, you're gonna be— if you're more— if you're comfortable with the worst parts, or like the what you perceive as the worst parts, you'll be comfortable in general, more comfortable generally.

I went sort of two ways. So in the past, I used to be embarrassed to be seen, you know, without my hair or makeup. Then I went the opposite direction where I was just like, I really couldn't care less. I usually don't wear that much makeup, things like that. But now I'm actually shifting more towards being more put together because I've noticed it shifts my energy. So what I needed back then was to feel comfortable being seen in my rawness, in the messy hair and no makeup, but I'm so comfortable and I couldn't care less how I look, to be honest. But now it's coming back the other way around, you know. I do want to dress up because then what I'm feeling like is, well, can't waste this makeup, we gotta film some videos, or, you know, now I want to be seen. And so it's just kind of depending on where you are on that, I guess, um, spectrum. Yeah, but it's the place you're challenging from, you know.

It's not— you're not doing it because you feel like you have to, it's because you're choosing to, because, you know, it gives you more energy versus like, oh my God, no one can see me without it. Yeah. You know, so I think that's so important, just that slight shift in energy. I could talk to you all day. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Great. Thank you. We'll have to do a part 2. And Nusa, part 2, I'm coming.

Amazing. Thank you.