Everyone Needs a "Jay!" w/ Karamo Brown

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The girls that I said, you know what, I'll buy them for you for— I'm paying attention, girl. That better not be more than a certain size, girl. That mean you ain't going too deep, OK? So that is—

It's the height limit. OK. The height limit. The roll call here, girl.

Let me measure that first. This is a very small height limit, girl. I do not need—

You know what we do here? Destroy shame around sex by talking about sex. Now, let me tell you something messy. I don't know if it's messy. It is, though. Basically, every time I go through the TSA, it seems as though I get stopped. You know, when you go in through the big thing where you got to put your hands up and spread your legs and you got to spread your legs and put them on the stickers on the ground. And then that big machine goes whoosh, right? And then you step out and they look at their little monitor to see if there's anything they gotta pat down. For whatever reason, I keep buzzing that thing off and the area that they have to look at is my dick. Like to the point where like they, I now know when the TSA agent looks at me 'cause they have to give me the, hey, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna touch your dick. They don't say that 'cause that's unprofessional. But they're like, you're gonna spread your legs, I'm gonna use the back of my hand. And they show me the monitor to show, and it's blinking red, like around my dick. And I'm like, there's nothing in there. Like I'm wearing, you know, I don't travel crazy. I wear sweats to travel, you know? And I do wear underwear and it's very loose underwear. So I'm like, what's going on? So I think it means my dick is too big. I don't wanna say that, right? Like what else is going on The TSA keeps stopping me for this weapon. I hate this. This is so toxic. But I have no other, like, I thought it was a zipper at one point, but like, it's 'cause I have like, one of my sweats has like zippers on the side, but it's not that 'cause there's no zipper in the front of my groin 'cause I'm not wearing jeans. There's like, I'm not, I don't, you know, I don't, all that's in there is a dick, balls, and pubes. And sometimes it's not even pubes 'cause I shave those at times. I don't really know what's going on, but if you know what's going on and you could support me, 'cause I'm not trying to be intimate with TSA like this over and over. You know what I'm saying? That's not what I want for me. That's not what I see for myself. And so I just need to know if there's something I can do about my penis. Do I need to wrap it? Do I need to bind it? Do I need to, you know, I was gonna say chop it off, but that seems too extreme. Not that, I'm not gonna do that. But like, do I need to say ahead of time "Hey, big dick, it's gonna buzz off." Could you imagine? Just like putting my stuff on the conveyor belt and then be like, "Hey, big dick here, it's gonna, the machine's gonna go off. Tender, tender." I don't know, but if you have any thoughts of why this happens, please let me know. If you are a TSA agent or you work with those machines, if you invented those machines, I don't know, I don't know who listens. Maybe you can give us a little more insight as to why My dick keeps setting off the alarms. By the way, welcome to the show. This is called Tell Me Something Messy. I'm your host, Brandon Kyle Goodman. Some people call me Messy Mother, but you could call me— Okay, well, I mean, there are options here. You can call me TS Ass. You could call me Pat Down Pro. You call me, you call me Pat Down Pussy Pro. Oh my God. Start the show. Start the show. You know what that sound means? That sound means that there was a foosball. If you're new here, foosball is our safe word. So if like something happens on the show and you're like, "Ooh, that unintentionally offended," or "Oh, what is that?" or "Ah, what?" Foosball. So let's talk about it. A couple weeks ago over the holiday, I done— what episode was that? It was the Christmas episode. Yes, the Christmas episode. My messy story or my messy rant was about winter penis, if you recall. And somebody messaged online, they didn't call it a foosball moment. My assumption is they were a first-time listener and they just took issue with what they felt I was making fun of performance anxiety and erectile dysfunction and bragging about having a big dick, is what they said. So it made me wanna just step this out for a moment. One, when it comes to the Winter Peenies messy story, I was not making fun of performance anxiety or erectile dysfunction. There are things I've experienced and I've written about. I was making fun of something called winter penis and the concept of a penis receding into your, um, your body by 50% because it's wintertime. Turn up thermostat, baby, we gonna be good. Okay, I was comparing it to blue balls, but which, you know, blue balls, my husband says it's real, but I think it's a myth. Anyways, so that was my, uh, my, my take on winter penis. That said, in general, and I— maybe I'm just overexplaining, but we are, you know, I know there are new listeners coming in and you might be new to me completely. And so I just want to make sure that I am setting up the guardrails of this space that we're building together, our community, which is when I do the messy stories and the messy rants, a lot of times they are of course based off of true events. But this is a comedy podcast and I'm gonna be making some jokes, I'm gonna be laughing, never at the expense of anyone, never at making fun of anyone unless it's myself. So when I talk about specifically having a big dick, girl. What is a big dick? Define a big dick. Define the length of a big dick, which is a different episode for the podcast. I, like, I'm fucking around with y'all, okay? So I hope y'all don't be thinking that I'm here bragging about having a, uh, a big dick. I'm not. I, I don't—

I—

my dick— this always happens when you're on Grindr. People ask what 'How big are you?' And people are very obsessed with the size. And I will tell y'all what I tell them. I don't know. I have not measured my penis since I was a teenager. When my dick gets hard, my first instinct is not, 'Oh, I should measure this.' And if that's yours, you know, go off. I love you. You know, know your body like that. But that is not my instinct. And I think that there's— there are conversations to have, which we won't have in this episode, about BDE, as we would call it, big dick energy, or what is a big dick and what are we qualifying as a big dick and why is that important? All that stuff. We're not doing that today though. But I just want to say, because I know the messy story I just told was me talking about big dick. It's a— we're making jokes here. It's a jokey joke, okay? I'm not saying my dick is small, but I don't know if my dick is big. My dick is my dick and I love her down, whatever she is, however she is qualified. I love her down. Okay, listen, And now let's get the show started. Okay, baby, you know what that means. It is time for a guest. Now while they get situated, we'll get our messy kiki started with a ho manifesto. Repeat after me aloud or in your head: Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage to heal, the wisdom to know that sex is not just about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries, the strength to not call my ex that fuckboy Fuck girl or fuck they, for it is better to masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play in my motherfucking face. Let the community say hallelujah. I am so excited to have Karamo on the show, the Emmy-nominated host and culture expert on Netflix's international hit series Queer Eye. Karamo is a sympathetic talk therapist wrapped inside a life coach and zipped into a fast-fashion bomber jacket. According to The New Yorker, Karamo draws from his work in social services to show how he both discovered and learned to explore his many different identities, whether as a Black man, openly gay man, a son of immigrant parents, a Christian, or a single father. Karamo strategically utilizes the strength of his numerous identities to achieve success and teaches others to do the same. Y'all, please help me welcome Karamo! Hi, Karamo!

Hey, boo-boo!

How are y'all?

I'm really great.

I'm so happy you're here. I'm so happy I'm here too. I'm so happy we were able to make this happen. Yeah, thank you. You look gorgeous.

Thank you.

Okay, before we get into the messy kiki, we have some messy mandates.

All right?

Okay. Here we go. Things get to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the right to shift, evolve, or change today, tomorrow, 10 years from now.

Amen.

And if during the kiki something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the safe word foosball, which gives us a moment to pivot or address accordingly. Okay. Sound good? Yeah. Let's start with the lube breaker.

Okay.

Okay.

Lube breaker.

Yes. Perfect. All right. Smash or pass. You know how this goes?

Yes.

I'll say something. You tell me if you smash it or you pass it.

Okay.

Smash or pass camping? Pass. Great.

Why? Because I hate the outdoors.

Yeah. Why do you hate the outdoors? I also do not like the outdoors.

Because I'm Black. And there's ancestors that are whispering in my ears.

Yes.

No, no, we're not doing this shit.

Yeah. People love to I can go to camp for days at a time. My husband can do it for 3 days max, but then afterwards, the showering of it all, he really can't handle.

And your husband is Caucasian. And that is why. That is why.

That is why. That is why. That is correct. That is absolutely correct. And I never go camping with him. Exactly.

I'm not doing that. Get out of here.

Smash or pass, being verbal during sex in the bedroom. Do you like quiet?

Smash.

Yes.

I'm not verbal, but I love someone verbal.

You love someone verbal. So you like when they talk, you like when they moan. All of the above.

All of it. Scream, moan, tell me what you like. What I do do is I love to, I like to whisper in ears and say like, this is fucking mine. Like, tell me this is mine. This belongs to me.

Tell me this belongs to me.

I do a lot of that.

That's verbal as fuck.

Yeah, but like, I'm a whisperer.

But you're a whisperer. Whisper verbal is sexy.

Yeah, but I like them to be like as loud as possible.

I love that. I was at a sex party the other day and there was a moment where I forgot myself and I was like, well, I'm a screamy murderer. I need to lower my voice. Okay, um, smash or pass, spit play. Yes, yes, smash.

Smash. All right, yeah, absolutely.

You can also, you can also smash if it's like a smash fast.

Yeah, no, it's, it's a smash. It's a smash then, because I'd love to like do a slight little tch in someone else's mouth.

Yes.

But if you spit on me, I'm going—

I'm, I'm—

again, again, there are ancestors.

Yes. Okay.

That whisper in my ears and are like You just said, what happened?

Yes. Okay, I'm with you. I like spit play, but if you spit on me, I have to, like, remind myself that we're not about to fight.

Right.

That would not be wise. Because initially I'm like, and then I'm like, oh wait, no, no, no, we're having a little—

We're having a moment. We're having a moment.

Good time. Yes. So it is a smash. Smash or pass fingering?

Smash.

Do you like to finger or be fingered or both?

I like to only finger.

Yes.

Yeah. It's very rare when things are near my booty hole.

That's love. It's love when it happens.

It's love. It's only love. It's only love when it happens.

I can't say the same. Things are often near my butthole. But fingering is— I have like a— I have a SMAS relationship. I feel like if somebody can do it and knows how to do it, it's great. But I think that some people like the finger and the dick do not feel the same.

No.

And people try to work it the same way and it's like, no, no, no, no. The finger needs to be gentler and—

handler.

I also don't always want it inside. Like, play with the hole with the finger.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A little sneak in, but you can't— I'm not— Yes, I'm not.

It's, it's actually one of the ways that I learned to be a better top was learning how to finger first.

Oh, tell me about it.

Eating ass and learning how to top and being patient and also understanding what your partner needs.

Yes.

Also allows you to be more in tune with their feelings, their— what they're, what they're getting enjoyment out of. And someone who's not a good top top is going to treat an asshole with a finger the same way they would treat it with their penis. Yeah. And so it's like, like you just said, like sometimes it's not about jamming it in. It's sometimes it's about like, how am I massaging it? How am I playing with the hole and the prostate at the same time with my thumb? Like, are we going a little bit? Do we need to make it a little bit wetter? Do we need to eat it a little bit? Do we need to do these things?

Yeah. How did you learn to become a better top? Like, who taught you? Or did you go searching? Or did somebody— the bottom was like a really good bottom. A really good bottom.

A really good bottom. Yeah. I'm going to call him Jay.

Yeah, please.

And Jay He's married with a beautiful kid now. And Jay really was like, I'm 10 years older than you and I'm going to slow your little fucking 23-year-old ass down. Oh, yes. Pay attention, girl.

Yes.

Now I need you to ask me, what is this? Do you need to? And then the first time we had a 3-sub, he said, no, girl, ask her if she wants that too. And I'm like, okay.

Oh, I love Jay.

Yeah.

Everyone needs a Jay. I feel like everyone needs a Jay, especially queer folks. Because, you know, I feel like straight sex is— No, straight men also need a J.

I'm going to say straight men need a fucking J.

I think the ladies listening are like, yes, please get them a J.

They have you though. They have you.

You're the J. I'll be the J.

You're the J.

But like, yeah, I think we all need— because it's wild that like we're kind of tossed into sex and expected to know how to do it based off of what we saw on a TV show or what we saw in porn. But that there's no— there's such a fear of asking. There's such a fear of admitting that you don't know what to do.

Yeah.

Or asking how to be— how to do it well. So to have a J who doesn't dismiss you but goes, let me actually work you through this, is so loving and liberating.

One of my favorite things that I try to remind people now is like, especially when, like, if you really want to make sure that your sex life is good, I love a pause in the middle where we start, get up, get up from the space you're fucking.

Yeah.

Stand, kiss, embrace. And then within that, say, did you like that? Yes. What do you want more of? What do you not? You know, and like, it's— it can be very sexy. It's not because people think like to ask is to take away the mood.

Right.

But actually a pause with an embrace and kissing in the middle and being like, did you like— what do you like? Is like you're making sure that we're all aligned. The intimacy is there.

Yeah.

And then you're now paying attention to their needs. I love that. And that's my favorite fucking thing to do.

That is such a great recommendation. And I appreciate like stepping that out like a check-in. Check in during the sex, but then like a really big step out of it.

Step out. Step out.

Yeah.

We're not laying in bed. I'm in the middle of my thing.

No, no, no, no. Not like while I'm fucking you. It's like we're taking a moment.

We're taking a moment. We're going to breathe there. We're going to embrace. It's like, what did you like?

You know what I think is people or why people don't do that is because I also, I often feel like people are going, once we penetrating, this is it. And I'm like, sex is like, it's a journey. Journey. It's a journey. I just went on a roller coaster yesterday. I'm going to describe it as a roller coaster, which is that like there are ups and downs, there are loops, there's moments that it's super fast.

Moments that it's a little slower.

But like having those, like understanding that sex should be a journey and not just like one linear path.

One linear path. I agree. I'm so glad that we have you and that you have this podcast.

Me too.

And that you are like on a national platform talking about these things.

Yes.

And I just got to give you some flowers. Thank you. I mean, seriously, I got— I mean, I've always loved your career and always supported you. But when I saw you the other day on Watch What Happens Live and you talking so freely and openly and confidently about you your relationships. I literally got emotional because as Black men, as Black queer men, we don't have those examples. We do not have enough of those examples. And this is not to discredit anybody online. It's not. But I feel like more straight Black women have those, cisgender Black women have those. But I don't feel like queer Black men have what you are providing us.

Yeah, there's the queers and the Black queers. There's not a space necessarily for us all to go to. To go to. A watering hole to like—

And you are it.

Thank you.

And I'm getting full and I'm enjoying every moment of it. And I just had to give you your flowers.

Can I give you your flowers back, though? Because you have supported me from the very beginning. And seeing you has also given me courage. You know what I'm saying? Like, seeing somebody that looks like me out there who is openly queer, living their fabulous life, like, that is healing. I mean, that's not something I grew up with. Even like, you know, the Karamo Show right now, like, that wasn't— to see a Black queer with their own daytime talk show, that wasn't a thing. That wasn't even like— it was so radical to conceive of that. And so giving you your flowers as well.

I can't wait. Well, I can wait, but I can't wait for 200 years from now when there's two of us here and they're going to be calling on their ancestors and we're going to be standing over them like, you two, get it, baby.

Get it.

We are so proud of y'all. We're spraying in the air, Karamo. Okay, get it. We're proud of y'all. Keep achieving.

Keep fucking.

Do it.

Yes, absolutely.

We will be there.

We will be there. Absolutely. I can't wait. Absolutely. You won the game, by the way.

I did?

You did. Congratulations.

Oh, thanks. What's the game?

The Smash or Pass. You won. Oh, I did. I did. I was like, great, I won. You win my unconditional love. Awesome.

Yes.

If y'all have any prompts or ideas for Loop Breakers, email tellmesomethingmessy@gmail.com. Speaking of which, Karamo, can you tell me something messy?

What I am is an open book. And what I am now is I want to be more of an open book about all parts of me is because because there's been a very— as a queer man, as a gay Black man, there has been a place where, like, I had to be sort of squeaky.

Yes.

A sort of way because of the show I was on. Yeah. And we were looked at as like these 5 gays who can never do anything.

The representatives.

Yeah. And I do not want to be. Yeah. Girl, like, I want to be me and live my career. Same. And so— and you and I know each other very personally. She's a hoe.

I'm a hoe. Yes!

I'm a hoe.

We're both hoes.

That's why we vibe. I claim it and I love it. And I love my body and I love I love consensual sex and respect and like nastiness. I love it all. And sometimes there's not a space for I'm a professional, but also I'm a sexual being.

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This is a messy mail and then we'll do it. Uh, so patrons, these are your submissions and remember everything gets to remain anonymous. Okay. This one says, recently discovered I like getting my pussy juice spit in my mouth. Mm. What do you think of— well, so like we don't have necessarily pussy juice, or I guess, do you like cum play?

So I had a girlfriend, speaking of, back in the day who liked this. Yeah, she loved it. She loved for me to eat her out and then go back in her mouth. I think she's probably the catalyst for me never going back to girls ever again, by the way.

Why? Because you were like, nah, I'm just not for you.

Listen, and this is no vagina shaming. I'm not one of those girls. No, yeah, yeah, no, the vagina is gorgeous.

It's beautiful.

We love them all of us. Love it. Powerful. She's just not for me.

Absolutely.

And when she is leaking at her best, she's definitely not for me.

You're like, I can't do that.

She's definitely like, for me.

Yes.

I've never been a fan of a grapefruit. I've never— I've never— like, give me something that like squirts in my mouth. I'm like, sign me up.

You're like, I want an ice cream cone instead.

I want ice cream cone.

I want that big dick.

But she liked when I would— like, it started off where— that was 18. I would eat her out and then she would say, kiss me. And then it got to more like playing with her clitoris until she came. And then she'd be like, like put it in my mouth.

Oh, hot.

For some.

For some. For some. Hey, for some, for whoever wants it.

For some.

I feel like, I mean, I do love swallowing. I'm a, you know, I'm an overachiever in that way, but I've never like put cum in my mouth and then like spit it in somebody else's or let them, or cum in somebody's mouth and let them put it in my mouth.

Yeah.

I'll try it and then I'll let you know if I like it. Cause I don't know. Maybe.

Wouldn't that be dependent on how much the person orgasmed?

Sure. Like if they're a big comer.

Yeah. They're, this a lot, girl. That's too much. We're not, we're not doing, I'm not trying to choke on it.

Yeah.

We're not doing enough.

I famously have said I have smaller loads. Famously. There are times where it's a big load, but usually I'd be getting fucked for a long time.

Yes.

But if it's just like a masturbation, it's like a, a, a small, you're a dribbler. I'm a dribbler.

Yes.

Like down, down the basketball court. Look at me knowing sports. Um, But I'm going to try this. My boyfriend does come a lot, so I don't know if I can do it with him. But yes, I'm going to try this. I'll report back. Okay. This one says my boyfriend's office door locks you in. We fucked while the kids were in the room on their phones. The 5-year-old tried to save us and picked the lock. Now I'm always thinking about because the holidays are coming, like having like parents having sex with the kids. You have 2 kids.

Yes.

Have you ever navigated sex with kids in the house? Yes.

It's difficult.

Yeah.

Especially once they start getting to like like 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and they could fully be aware. It, it, I, I think kids, kids ruin sex.

Do you have to have a conversation about it? Do like, how do you manage?

Well, yeah.

Like if you're like, okay, you're of an age having sex, me and parents. No, no.

I mean, like maybe you should be able to have a conversation, but like, I still, and I know how to talk about relationships. I know how to have a conversation with kids about them being safe with their sex, open about exploring. But like, there's always this boundary of like, I'm your dad. I can't tell you what I'm doing. Thus, you can't hear what I'm doing. And you can't— you can't know. You can't hear it. I don't do anything. Any single thing. And so it's so like, like when I was in— when we were— I was in this 10-year relationship and when the kids were in the house, it was like, no, no sex. Or we'd have to go in the bathroom and close the bathroom door that was in the bedroom already. So there was like a double layer. And then like usually the shower would be on or we'd have to wait till they were asleep and it was always silent. You know what I mean? And we just talk about it like verbal. Yeah. Like verbal. Like these things.

Yeah.

And so I feel for them because kids are always gonna want to be involved.

They wanna know what's happening.

They wanna know what's going on. Yeah.

Yeah. I have, the closest I have is the dog. The dog really wants to be involved.

Oh my gosh.

And I'm like, you have to, I'm okay with, I don't, people like to have sex with the animals in the room. God bless you. That is not me. I don't— Me either. No.

When you turn right. Oh my gosh.

And the dog be wanting to sniff.

Not doing it. Not doing it.

Dog, don't do it. Kids get to walk in the living room. We'll be in the bedroom.

Yeah. We'll be in the bedroom.

Yeah. I don't. Yeah.

I wish, I wish parents the best of luck though that have to do that. I wish them the best of luck.

You have to have the conversation. You have to negotiate.

It's negotiate. It's like real conversation about how we're gonna do this.

Yeah.

But you know, that's probably also like what I like straight couples. They end up having, sexless marriages because they get into a pattern where it's like it's about the kids.

Yes.

We can't have intimacy until they're asleep. And then now we've just lost learning how to have connection.

Yes. Well, you talked about that. I interviewed Danielle Schneider and we were talking just about, like, motherhood and how that shifts when you have a kid and now your attention becomes about the kid, how that can kind of play with your sex drive and like having to learn a new way of connecting.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because you're like, there's a new child or several children and that's going to It's not going to be as easy as it was.

But I also think with gay men, and I can speak from that for me, I think like seeing as how, and not all, there is the ways our parties, you know, like a circuit party or like even like a festival or Pride can like sometimes, you know, allow, you know, more open sexual environments, like navigating that when you have kids as well. Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Because like, we know that a friend can also be a sex buddy.

A friend could be a friend.

A friend could be a friend.

A friend could be a friend.

And like kids, kids pick up on certain things. Yeah, they pick up on the energy. And so having those conversations were also like—

How did you do that? Were you able to do that? Are you still working on that? No.

I'm still— Hey, can somebody— What's the email address at Messy?

Tell me something Messy.

Tell me messy@gmail.com. Can y'all tell us gay parents? I'm out of the trenches now, but the ones that are in there, how y'all doing that?

How y'all doing it? How y'all navigating the circuit parties and the fullsomes?

And the fullsomes, and then coming home with the kids.

Yes.

Because have you ever seen that little boy on social media where he like mimics his two gay— his parents are bears.

And he goes, oh yes, I have.

And he's like, hey bear bear. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love them.

I'm like, he's gonna pick up on something soon.

Yes.

Where they're not intentionally trying.

Put that phone down.

Exactly. So don't be fussing at us.

Exactly.

Let's see.

Yeah. Okay. This one says, I went to my first Sniffies orgy on Saturday. A success. Which Sniffies, by the way, for you who don't know, it's an app. It's, it's an app, as far as I understand, that's just on a desktop. And I would say, as my understanding, Sniffies, they nastier than Grindr.

Yeah, they are nastier than Grindr.

They in the parks.

So you know why it can't be? Because like you can't confirm identity, so that's why they can't make an app. They don't reach those guidelines because it can be anonymous.

Anonymous. And that's part of the— I like to know who I'm— I like to know.

I don't want to be on it.

I don't want to show—

I'm not showing Up to see who is not the person.

I don't like the surprise. You know, I used to love Ricky Lake when the door opens, you don't know who's behind. That's not how I like to do my sex though. No, no, no. That's my TV shows. Do you remember your first orgy?

Mine?

Yeah. Yeah. What was it?

What was your experience in your first orgy? It was overwhelming.

Yeah.

Because everyone know I talked about it. Like, there was a strong period of my life where, like, I was heavy on, like, drugs and whatever. Yeah. But at this point, for my first orgy, I was sober. And so it was overwhelming because there was nothing but a lot of high bottoms that all needed someone to perform.

They were like, put that together.

And like, no, everyone else who could have been a top was unable to perform because they were too high. Yeah. And so it was like a lot of pressure of like—

So it was you and your dick.

It was me. It was like me. And I'm like, girl, I'm like, let's go.

Let's go.

But then it was like, okay, I don't I don't— it's like I'm not connecting anymore.

Yeah.

And for me, I need connection. I need a bit of connection.

I'm with you. Just a little bit. Even like, just like, do you like that song? I like that song too. Yeah.

Now let's fuck to it.

Yes.

You need a little bit of connection.

Just a little bit. Yes. You know what? Let me define orgy because I was thinking about like, what is the difference between an orgy and a sex party, which they have crossover, but they're, I think, slightly different. Do you know the difference? I would think that— or how would you describe the difference?

I would think that sex party is more a lot more strangers and also usually is coming after a club, or there could be more drugs involved, where orgy is more we're aware of the people that are coming.

Yeah.

And that, you know, like this is specifically for us to have a certain type of enjoyment and there's less drugs involved.

Yes.

Is what I would assume.

That would— so this is, this is— I Googled it and it said an orgy is— this one says a sex party where guests freely engage in open and unrestrained sexual activity of group sex. This other one says a wild party, especially one involving excessive drinking and unrestrained sexual activity. I'm kind of more with you where I think an orgy, I would describe it as group sex, which, you know, like to me is like 5 or more. And I would say that like we're all in the same room playing together.

Sex party is like, girl, the girls are in the kitchen.

You're over here.

They're in the next room.

Yeah. And there's like maybe perhaps, I don't know if it's— I would say like a sex party sometimes maybe has a little more structure because you're like, I feel like I get invited to a sex party and somebody's like, on Friday night we're doing this.

Yeah.

There will be lube.

Well, I feel like orgy is more structured.

Oh, okay.

Sex party is girl after the thing. Girl, people are coming.

Yes.

In my opinion.

But the sex party is also— but I guess the clear delineation is that a sex party would be y'all, we're just in this space wherever you are, wherever you feel like.

Orgy, we're all coming into the room. We're all together. We're together. We're more— it's more concise.

Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I think.

But you the expert. Whatever you define it as.

Um, what was my first orgy? So my very—

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My very first orgy orgy by this description would have been in college. 8 of us that were freshmen, several of us, several men and women. And I don't remember. I didn't know what was happening. It was like my first, you know, you've seen it in porn.

Yeah.

I can't remember if we got naked. We were like all in the bed touching and stroking and kissing. But then what was my, like, first real— I guess that was a real orgy. But like, as an adult, it might have been a darkroom more so, which I guess that's an orgy more than a a sex party because we're all in one space.

So it's surprising that you like dark rooms when you don't like sniffies.

So, okay, so I've learned this about myself. Okay, so I like a dark room if I feel emotionally connected outside of the dark room. So if my relationships and my, like, roster is doing well outside—

Out of there, then you feel—

Then I can do whatever in the dark room.

Got it.

But if my roster or my sex is not doing well outside, then there becomes too much pressure in the darkroom.

Got it.

Does that make sense?

Yes, 100%.

If my cup is full, then I can move in there because I think in the darkroom you got to have like your confidence. You got to have like a— you got to just be able to go with the flow of what's happening. And if my shit is not correct outside, I'm too in my head.

See, I've never enjoyed a darkroom.

You've never enjoyed a darkroom? There's a connection.

Yeah, there's a small piece of me that's demisexual.

Oh, and let me— can I— let me just define demisexual. Which is a sexual orientation where a person only experiences sexual attraction after forming a close emotional connection with someone.

I need to know.

You want to know who they are?

I need to know who you are. I mean, sex is beautiful. I love it. I love it when it's free and everyone is enjoying it. Yes. But like, I also like— so I'm, I'm one of these girls that if we have sex, like, and it's random, like, I still want to like follow you on Instagram.

Yeah.

Like, you know, most people could go to my followers list and be like, oh, okay. Because girl, like, if a random person had pulled up, picked up is because I'm not just going to be like, oh girl, I'm like, let's get it.

I hate when people don't like to say hello at the gym after. It's like, baby, I was inside you. Like, hello. Hello. How are you?

How are you? How are you?

People really get like in their head.

Like, let's separate. Yeah, but no. And so I think that for me is why the experience of like dark rooms, those places aren't as exciting.

Yes.

Because it's like, well, like what you just said, if your buildup on the outside is sexy.

Yes.

It can follow through. For me, unfortunately, like, even if the buildup is sexy outside, it's like, I don't want to go in there because again, I can't see. Yeah, I'm 44, girl, and I can't see.

And it's true. You really can't see in there.

I don't know.

I do love— I do love to, like, dance with somebody. I'm— so my friends make fun of me because I feel like I get a boyfriend at a party, like a dance floor boyfriend. So like where my friends will bounce around from guy to guy.

Oh, I've seen it.

You've seen me like with one guy the entire night.

You are on it. You are on it. I love it.

I'm in my little one-night relationship.

And you are giving— What I also love about you is you dance and you give a sexy, beautiful show. You're like— It's like very like— The way I could describe you in a club, if you don't mind, is Janet Jackson "If" video. Wow!

This is high praise.

You are like—

But like, just—

But like, also sexy, but hitting a move. It's like— I'm gonna hit that beat. But all eyes are on you. It's very good.

I love a dance floor. I love owning my power. And I love you. That's my Ursula moment. I feel like I lure the boys in.

You do. That's why the only thought I could have was Janet Jackson if. Because it's like, I'm here. And that dude is looking at me. And everyone is watching.

I'm OK with that. I know it took a little bit. But I love it. My dance floor boyfriend. And then I go in and out the dark room with them. And I find that to be the sexiest. OK, this one says— It says, "There's a girl who's really into me and I like her, but I think I'm afraid of intimacy. Help." So I thought we could talk about intimacy because we've been talking about emotional connection this whole time. I'll define intimacy first and then we can get into how one does it, I guess. Okay. This says intimacy, close familiarity or friendship, closeness or a private, cozy atmosphere. Can be an intimate act, especially sexual intercourse, an intimate remark, closeness of observation or knowledge of a subject. I think it's interesting that intimacy often gets called a sexual act, but I don't think that every sexual act is intimate.

It's not. 100% not.

Yeah.

Intimacy is— it's literally what I just said about earlier, about the taking a moment outside of the space.

Yes.

And standing and embracing you and figuring out what you need.

Yes.

That's intimacy. That's, to me, is when real intimacy happens.

I agree.

What is your desires? What do you want? Who are you?

Who are you? It's a desire to know someone, which I find, and I've learned this over time, but it can be difficult for people to want to have that intimacy with a stranger or with someone they're new with. And I think that that's exactly when you should be trying to create intimacy.

But I think that because people are so afraid and think that they have to go deep.

You know what I mean?

It's like, we have to get married now. We have to get married because we've been intimate. Intimacy is just like, I'm just curious to have a little bit more of a connection. And I think that we're losing a bit of that curiosity, you know what I mean? Of like, who are you? What are you about and what do you like? And like, I don't have to then all of a sudden say I want more.

Sure.

Because I want to be a little bit more intimate with you. And I think people need to reframe that in their minds, that intimacy doesn't mean long-term connection. Intimacy can mean I just want to know a bit about you for this moment.

Yes.

So that we can have a better connection.

I love that. I think that when you're saying that, that makes me think that the fear around intimacy is that you're losing something.

Yeah. Right.

Like my fear to give this intimacy is that I feel like I'm going to lose something or that I'm going to be seen and rejected, which— sorry, I'm processing real time, which then I would be curious if you were intimate with yourself.

Oh, yeah. Well, the journey always starts with ourselves. Yes. I mean, like, and this goes into emotional, sexual, go, how well do you know yourself? Like, I know my body. I know the parts that I like. I know the parts that make me feel uncomfortable. And I'm falling in love with the parts that make me feel uncomfortable. I know what's going to make me orgasm. I know what is going to make me feel giddy and, you know, childlike in this essence of like when we're playful in bed. Yeah, for sure. And it's because I'm intimate with myself. I have the hard conversation with myself. I get close with myself. And a lot of people don't do that. You know what I mean?

Yeah. You know how I learned to be intimate with myself? Myself. Now I'm thinking about it. It was learning how to douche because there's something about that's like, you have to learn your body. Like, you have to know when you can do it, how long it's going to take.

This is all new information.

But like, for me, douching—

I've never done it in my life.

Oh my goodness. I want you to do it just to do it. Hell no.

I cannot.

I can't.

Okay.

You might. Listen, life is long. You might at one point be like, I'm going to learn how to douche. Why not? You said no.

Girl, the girls that I said that in my life, I've said, you know what, I'll bottom for you for, I'm paying attention, girl, that better not be more than a certain size, girl, that mean you ain't going too deep, okay? So that is— That's tea. Listen, I'm very specific, girl.

You're like, what's the limit? It's the height limit.

Let me measure the height first. This is a very small height limit, girl. I do not need—

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I feel like douching really— because the process of learning how to do it and like learning my, like, learning my gut health, yeah, was required me to be really in touch with my body. And so that I think started or helped to contribute to a journey of like being intimate with myself. And like, I do think that the fear— because this person, let me read exactly what they said. They said, I'm afraid of intimacy. And I think that's another way of saying I'm afraid of myself. Because if you don't know, if you don't know what's going on here, then of course it feels like you're going to lose something when you're intimate with someone. Whereas for me, because I feel like I know what this— what my body is and my emotions are I don't feel like I'm losing anything when I'm intimate with somebody, even if it's for a moment. I feel like I'm expanding into something.

I agree. That's what you are with it.

Yeah, right?

If I can tell you, if I can— hearing you say that, it reminded me, I think the first time that I realized I was intimate with myself is through J again, who told me to masturbate in front of them.

Ah.

And directed me. And this is young 22-year-old me, 23, that said, He was like, touch yourself. Because most men, when they're having— when they're watching porn, it is about me playing only with my penis.

Yes.

That's it. I'm going here. I'm playing with this. And then maybe nipples. That's it.

Yes.

But how many of us have ever caressed ourselves while we're doing it, enjoying ourselves? Maybe choked yourself a little, did anything to yourself to make yourself feel more connected with your own body in this act. And then secondly, when he told me to do that, it was like, like it was changing for me because I had never caressed my own self. And then afterwards, the porn that I was watching, he said, so why do you think you enjoyed that? And it was the first time someone ever asked me versus just being like, oh, because it was hot. Asked me what was the intentionality, what was my connection to that? What does that also say about where I'm at mentally, physically, emotionally?

Yes.

And it sounds so wild, but I would encourage everyone to do it once. For once in your life, when you're about to have an intimate moment with yourself, touch yourself, embrace yourself, feel yourself up as you're also masturbating. And then when you're done, take a second before you, like, get up and start your day. And while you have that post-nut clarity and say, what was it about that that I enjoyed and why? And where am I? Like, why was this group sex or this, this fisting play or whatever it is? Why was that fun?

A turn on. Yeah. And it's not with judgment, right? It's a gentle curiosity with yourself. It's by yourself.

It's not a group thing.

Yeah.

Because that is now intimacy. And the more you can get comfortable in that, this person here, you will then find yourself when someone says, I want to know more about your body, you're like, explore.

Yes.

And when they say, what are you into? You're like, I know what I'm into.

I know what I'm into.

And these intimacy questions aren't going to be so intimidating. Again, going to your point, it's about expanding because now I can let you in because I'm fully aware of who I am.

Yes.

Guess. And also, like, if you don't know, I think that's also intimacy. It's like, oh, I actually don't know in this.

And I want to explore. And I want to explore. But even that being— most people are afraid to say that. We talked about it before. But that starts with, again, like that, that just taking a moment with yourself. Everything starts at home.

Yeah.

Everything starts with you.

I would also suggest, and this is what I've been working on, and I would especially suggest it for men or male body. Anyone's like kind of raised in that, indoctrinated with that, is I'm working on being more intimate with my male friends, which is not sexual. Yeah, but like, you know, I was with my best friend the other day, I was just holding his hand, not sexual. It's like, I'm here, like, just what are those things that we're taught don't do because that's not manly or that's whatever?

I agree.

How can I, like, let me run my hand through my best friend's hair? It's not sexual, but it's intimate.

So my publicist is here, and literally when I pulled up, the first thing I rolled down the window and said, you are stunning. And there is, there is no sexual between us. We have never had anything like that. And but I make it a priority to say intimate, beautiful things to him to make sure he's aware.

Yes.

Like, you're one of the most beautiful people. You deserve the— like, and he is.

And he is.

But seriously, do we not have that, like, shared, like, respect of, like— and so I agree with you, like, in finding ways to hug, embrace, hold a hand with a male friend that doesn't turn into sex is also a gorgeous thing.

I love that. Yeah. It's like you can work on your intimacy with yourself and with your platonic relationship. And I think that will bleed into the romantic or the sexual relationships because you're like, what is the practice? I'm so thankful.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh.

These conversations. Oh my gosh.

Y'all generation listening to this, girl, y'all had no idea.

We didn't have this, girl.

We didn't have it.

We did. Listen, growing up did not have it. We did not have it. These are the conversations we need to be having.

Yeah.

Yeah. So for this person, I would say, uh, One, I would also say you can say to that girl, I'm afraid of intimacy. I think that's another thing.

That's an intimate act.

It's an intimate act.

It's an intimate act.

It's to say to the person, I'm afraid of intimacy. I like you. I really enjoy this, but I'm afraid to be intimate.

People don't realize that.

Yes.

Even saying the thing that's hard is an intimate act.

And when you say the hard thing, to me, it gives you all the information you need by the way the person responds or reacts. Agreed. And it's like, oh, is this— if the person who responds in a way that holds it, you're like, Oh, this is somebody I can continue pursuing with. Listen, if they don't, then you're like, save you some time, save you 2 years.

Let me tell you what I learned very early on is that an action can be closure for me. I don't need to have 40 conversations with you to get my closure.

Come on.

Come on.

And that takes time for you to understand that, that like your response in this moment gives me the closure I need to know this is never going to work.

You can just leave people where they are.

Leave them where they are.

You can say— I feel like there's these memes that are like, just say LOL and move on.

And like, the girls feel like I need to I need to figure this out.

What was the conversation?

Why is this happening? Girl, your action just gave me the closure I needed.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

And even if you had that conversation, the frustration you might come up against is that person is what I always say, reacting versus responding. So when somebody is reacting, it rhymes with attack. It has nothing to do with you. It's the baggage that they've brought and it's being projected onto you. So you're never going to get the clear answer that you want because it has nothing to do with you. Nothing to do with you.

So take that as your closure.

Take the action. My angel, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

Believe them.

Reverse sides.

Believe them.

You did that fuck shit. That's all.

That's all I needed.

I need to know.

I'm so quick on telling people thank you.

Thank you.

People are so confused when they do something that is negative and I say thank you. People are confused for the past decade.

Yeah.

Because they're like, what? And I'm like, no, thank you.

Gratitude.

And then I'm like, and then the Scorpio pops in. I'm like, bye.

Have a good day. Have a good day. We'll see you again. When I go on a date and somebody is rude to a waiter, it is a thank you moment for me.

Thank you.

It's like, oh, you're our first date and you being mean to people who are helping us?

Thank you.

I don't need to.

Thank you.

You're going to be mean to me eventually. Thank you.

Thank you.

Goodbye.

Goodbye. Yeah.

Thank you. That's tea. Okay, let me ask you the last 2 questions that we ask here, which is, have you ever had sex in a porta potty?

No, girl.

No.

She is not doing it.

I'm neither. But some people have.

Okay, hold on.

Talk to me. Or have you? Uh-oh. Oh my gosh. Uh-oh.

I love this.

Okay, think about it.

I just realized this.

Think about it.

So I have house parties.

Uh-huh, yes.

And I have porta-potties.

Yes.

And they're fancy.

They're fancy.

They're fancy.

Okay, they're fancy. They're not the usual. They're not the construction ones. They're not the construction ones.

There's space. There's space in there.

There's music playing.

There's mirrors.

There's everything. Yeah, it's like a little bedroom.

It's like a bedroom.

Okay. Very nice.

And so I have— Okay, okay. I just oral.

Oral, yes.

In one of my porta potties.

To be honest, I might have had something in your porta potty. Actually, T, I did the first time I came over. That porta potty was nice and I did have a little moment.

I had to catch myself about to lie.

I've been lying on this podcast for months. I had sex in a porta potty at Karamo's house.

I did. All right, here we go.

But it was a nice one.

It was a nice one. We're not those other girls. It's not festival porta potties.

We had brushes and everything.

It doesn't stay there. That's what's crazy to me is when it stays there. Yeah, girl, no. Okay, great. The last question is, what could you learn to love more about yourself? What could I learn? That's a hard question because I'm—

the self-work I do daily.

Oof, I bet.

I mean, I really am constantly talking to myself, having conversations with myself.

What's the thing that you worked on the most that you were like, oh, this is— this was the thorn. Maybe you love it now, but it was originally a thorn.

I wasn't patient with myself. And, and now I'm more patient with myself. And I love that I'm in that journey right now.

Yeah.

Makes any sense?

Makes perfect sense.

Yeah. I am also relationships-wise. I am also in a space where if we are not planning our partnership.

Yeah.

Then I don't want it. Ooh, I love that. It has to be both of us planning our partnership. And when I say planning our partnership, I I mean, are we both actively engaged in how we're going to be emotionally partnership, healthy, financially, everything? Because the girls don't like to always talk about it. And you have one person who's doing more than the other.

And that, why don't they? That is such tea. Cause I've dated people where I'm like trying to have the emotional conversation and they don't want to have it.

They don't want to have the sex conversation. They're not, they might want to talk on one part of how we're moving forward, but they don't want to talk about the other.

Absolutely.

And so if you're not planning your partnership with me, intentionally, then girl, I don't need to be around you.

I also think that you saying partnership is so important. I try to specify that, like, I'm never looking for a spouse or a boyfriend or this. I'm looking for a partner. It's different.

Yes.

Like we're building something like the way you have a business partner or the way you have a co-host. It's like that is the partnership that I'm looking for. Building.

You said it.

Not just trying to be like your passive husband, wife, or boyfriend, girlfriend. But like, let's build something. And that is a different level of relationship or just like different approach to relationship that requires you to be emotional, to be intimate, to be vulnerable, to say what you want, what you don't want, to like to have some tension that you work through. Because I think if you're— because, you know, a lot of us grew up, you know, all of us grew up watching Husband and Wife. And in that dynamic, the man is the this and the woman submits. And we hate that version of things. But what I think we should all be striving for, no matter what the gender, is the partnership.

Is the partnership.

Is the person that says, I want to build with you. What you have to say is of value here. Exactly. What I have to say is of value here. How do we—

And we're going to find that. And it has to be emotionally, mentally, physically, sexually. Come on. And I am all about that because I am tired of doing the work in a partnership and another nigga is not.

Come on.

Bye, girl.

I had to go.

Bye, girl.

And you know what that is? That is there's a version of yourself that could hate that standard and like fight against that and learning to— because I feel like that's been me with just emotional connection, learning to love that I enjoy emotional connection.

Yes.

That I need it.

Need it.

You know, so it's like, oh, I need partnership or I need this type of relationship. And I don't— that's not a bad thing. Not at all. Because as gays, you were like, I'm supposed to just be able to put my dick out and fuck.

And like, it's like, no, no, girl. Yeah.

I love that. Karamo, thank you for being here. Here.

I will come anytime you want.

Literally and figuratively. Period.

Period.

Don't make my pussy clap before you leave. Clap, clap, clap. All right, I love you so much. I love you too.

Thank you for having me.

Of course. You already know we're hoes here, but hoes with heart. So before we get out of here, let me speak to yours. I love that everyone should find a J. That is tea. You need your fairy hoe mother. And perhaps I am a fairy hoe mother for some of you or for a lot of you. And I'm honored. But yeah, I think that everyone needs to find a J. You know, the I am Team saying, I don't know. I have learned, and this is about sex, is about anything. I have learned that there is such power in saying, I don't know, you know, asking questions, being curious, but saying, I do not know, because, baby, it's your first time doing life. You don't need to know everything. You don't have to know everything. It does not make you a better person because you know everything. It does not make you a smarter person or dumb person because you don't know everything. Say, I don't know, because that actually creates space for some learning and growth and expansion is inside of your learning. But also specifically with sex, finding somebody you can learn with is everything. Finding a partner you can learn with or, you know, teachers, you know, porn is porn. So, you know, that's not my favorite teacher, but like finding sex educators or sexual influencers or people who are sexual columnists or, you know, even your own life, your friends, your partners, and being able to talk to them openly more more and more. I hope that this show inspires you to just talk more and more about your sex and to help you find your J. Or maybe you are the J, and if you are the J, baby, don't be— like, if you got the knowledge, don't be afraid to share. Don't be afraid to guide. You know, I think, I think we all want to learn how to have better, hotter, more connected sex. Also, intimacy is not something to be scared of, and it's not something to reserve just for your sexual relationships. I think that intimacy is something that can happen across any of your relationships. And I would encourage you to practice intimacy with your friends, practice intimacy with yourself. If you are afraid of intimacy, I would, I would re-translate that into you might be afraid of yourself. There's nothing to judge about that. There's nothing wrong. Listen, there's a lot we— there's a lot that goes into making up who we are, and it can be overwhelming, especially especially when you are navigating stories of rejection, stories of not feeling good enough, not being worthy, things that people have put on you. But I always say, you know, instead of coming out, I've been thinking about this journey, whether it's, you know, saying that I'm gay, non-binary, I'm a hoe, as coming home to myself. You know, there was a version of you that didn't give a fuck what anybody thought. You were just a cute little bouncy baby doing your shit. And then people started to tell you, oh, you're too this, you're too that, you're not enough of this, you should do this, you can't do that. That. You know, I always say this question: who would I be if society never got its hands on me? That is a great way to begin becoming intimate with yourself, coming back home to who you really are, shedding all of the weight that other people put on you. Don't be afraid of intimacy. It will save your life. It will also expand and evolve and transform your life. Also, I wanted to give you an updated definition for orgy versus sex party, and to do that, I reached out to my my friend and friend to our show, Zachary Zane. And you might have heard him on our show on the episode Find Your Covens of Doms on November 21st. See, look at me, I'm giving you all the details. Anyways, Zach says an orgy is when 5 or more people all have sex together. While everyone doesn't need to fuck everyone in the orgy, there should be some form of interaction between orgyers. I love that word. It can be as simple as just acknowledging orgying and looking at the other people fucking in the room. There's some debate about how many people there needs to be to be considered an orgy. I said 5 because threesomes and foursomes are real words and fivesome is not. I love that. And I actually agree. I think an orgy, you know, 'cause if it's 3 of y'all, it's a threesome. If it's 4 of y'all, it's a foursome. That makes sense to me. That's like, you know, 2 couples, but a fivesome, that's not real. That's an orgy. I agree. Zach, I agree. I agree. Okay, Zach says a sex party is a designated event people attend to presumably have sex, but you may partner off alone in a room with a single person and not have multi-person sex at a sex party. Not to mention, some people don't have sex at a sex party. So an orgy is more of the act of multi-person fucking, whereas a sex party is a space where sex can happen and is celebrated. Thank you, Zach. Um, Zach is also now officially the Grindr sex and relationship expert. Yay, Zeki! You know, I also really love this definition because the one that I read during the episode talks about like drugs and alcohol being part of it, and drugs and alcohol absolutely do not need to be part of, um, a sex party or an orgy. To me, uh, saying that just reveals how much, uh, anything around sex is so, um, villainized, uh, in our puritanical culture that an orgy or a sex party, which can actually be beautiful, healing, transformative experiences, uh, gets, you know, the definition that is floating around that most people are probably going to find online will include drugs and alcohol, which is nothing wrong with drugs and alcohol, but there is of course a puritanical judgment. You can hear it, you know, you know, you know what I'm talking about. There's a tone, there is a tone to the definition that says people got to be You know what I'm saying? There's a tone to that. And so I wanna— So I really like Zach's definition, and that's what we will be using here on the show. Okay, well, that's it. I love you so much. Let's do some hoe keeping. You can find Karamo on Instagram @Karamo, K-A-R-A-M-O. You can find me on Instagram as well at @BrandonKyleGoodman. You can find our podcast at @TellMeSomethingMessy. And you can join our community on the Messy Mondays Sunday's Substack. When you subscribe, you'll get weekly posts, recommendations on sex and self, and so much more. Also, I want to hear from you, so send your topic ideas, your messy stories, your submissions, uh, your game ideas to tellmesomethingmessy@gmail.com. You can also call us at 669-69-MESSY. That is 669-696-3779. Rate, review, and share this podcast. Cast with all your hoe and aspiring hoe friends. It really, really helps the show out. All right, until next time, ask about the politics of that dick before you make it spit. Make sure they eat the kitty before they beat the kitty. Before fuckation or suckation, communication. And in case you haven't heard it yet today, you are so deeply loved. I love you. Bye! Thank you so much for listening to Tell Me Something Messy. If y'all enjoyed this episode, show, send the episode to someone else who might like it. Tell Me Something Messy was executive produced by Ally Perry, Gabrielle Collins, and yours truly. Our producer and editor is Vince DiGiani. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio and the Outspoken Network, visit the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.

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