Karamo Brown

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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't try to make this right. Don't try to make this right. You know what I'm saying? You know, you know what I'm saying? I, you know, I'll try to put on a nice little jacket and everything.

I'll tell you, the pink, the pink brings out your undertones in your skin because your undertones are red, so you look fresh. You look great.

Are you kidding me? Oh, what about now? What about now?

Okay, even better, even better.

All right, okay, okay. I'm just trying to make sure, just trying to make sure. I got you.

You're good, you're good.

Well, also because I'm a little bitty man. I'm only 5'4". I'm 5'4", so—

Oh yeah, I'm 6'3", so I'm about happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You could have text me that. You didn't have to say that out loud. You could have. That could have been something. You text me like you just want to flex on every level. Just want to flex on every level. Brothers and sisters, my name is Kirk Franklin, and I come to give you Good Words. Let's go. Good Words family. Today's guest is one of the most coolest dudes I've had a chance to talk to so far. We've been talking just right before we started rolling. Now, most of you know him. He's the culture expert on the Netflix makeover reality series Queer Eye. He's curated his role beyond culture by injecting motivational, inspirational talks, mental health, life coaching, and just every aspect As a matter of fact, when I was getting ready today, I had the dossier on the kitchen table and my wife was reading about his work with young people. And she was so impressed with what he does with young people. And she want me to tell you hi. Tell me to tell you hi. And in 2004, he became one of the first openly gay Black men to be featured on a reality TV show when he appeared on MTV's "The Real World" in Philadelphia. I remember that. It was a powerful moment. First as a social worker and as an author, activist, and TV host, he's made it his life mission to help others. And I'm honored to have him. And I'm so glad that he was willing to have a conversation with me because if we only have conversations with people that view life the way that we view life, then we miss life's bigger conversations. And so I'm honored. I'm honored. Please welcome to Good Words, Mr. Karamo Brown.

Hey, thank you for having me.

Listen, I'm glad to be here. Now, first of all, is somebody cutting your grass in the background?

No, no, I can hear like that. Um, oh, you know what, can you close that door? Somebody— I just moved to a new house and they're doing construction far away. And so I think like maybe it might be it, but we'll close this back there.

That's a nice house too. That's a nice— that's a nice house. What you paying about that? $75 a month? $75.

That's it. Listen, listen, listen. I grew up in Texas, as we were about to talk about. I know, but I grew up extremely poor. You know, it was always like, you know, I have 4 sisters and it usually was like 3 in one bedroom, 2 in the other, you know, like somebody on the couch. And so like to have known that I've worked as hard and God has blessed me with what I have, I'm very humbled by it because it is not how it started out. It's not how it started out.

Now, man, I want you to know, man, that I'm super, super, super thankful for you to be willing to have a conversation with me. You know, when we come from these different places and these different experiences, a lot of times they have not always been conducive to beautiful human conversations, conversations that are full of respect for the humanity that we bring to the table. To the table, and I just want you to know how humbled I am that you would be willing to come and just have a good chop-up with me.

Of course. Well, the feeling is mutual. I mean, like, you're someone that has been in my life before we've ever had this conversation. Um, you know, you were one of the people that united family members in, like, just praise and joy my entire life. So the fact that now our paths have aligned for this moment is an honor for you to even ask me to be on here, so— Thank you.

Wow. So did you have a favorite Kirk song when you were coming up? Oh my God, you know, y'all killing me. Y'all act like a nigga ain't wrote number one song this whole life.

Y'all, what do you guys say? So when that came out, that was critical for me because like we went to the church a lot and that's when I think that came out, what, um, '94, 2000, 1997. Okay, so that's what I was gonna say, it's gonna be somewhere around when I was young enough because You know, we went to the church every Wednesday and Sunday, and that's also when I decided to— I don't use the term coming out, but I use the term let my family in to the fact that I identify as gay. And when I let them in, you know, there was a lot of people in church that was like, hold up, hold on. And so it started to vibe. But like, I remember Stomp being like the only time that we would all get together and we'd be partying. So like, that's why for me, that's a critical moment. I know you got to list many, many a songs, but that one for me was like— I'm still united with people who I feel were going to reject me because we could still get together. Wow.

What— can you do me a favor and at least make me feel good about myself? And can you name at least one more song that you know of mine? Can you make— I can. Can you make me feel just—

I can, but like, right now my mind said this.

Because you got me on—

it's not because I can't. It's because you got me on the spot. That's what it is. It's like you abuse somebody and they say—

Whatever, whatever. You know what, I'm just gonna walk through my motions. Okay, keep the conversation going. I'm gonna step it up. I'm, I'm just gonna wipe my tears and keep going. Now listen, Karamo, first of all, first of all, that's a banging name. You got to give me the background of this name, Karamo. That— what, what, what does this mean? It's like, there's got to be some meaning behind a name like that. And I know that, that, that sometimes in our community we be naming kids names and they don't even know what the name mean. But there is no way that you did not get from somebody in your family the meaning of such a powerful, strong sounding name.

Yes. So my father's a— my parents are not from this country. I'm first generation American and my father's a Rastafarian. And so most people think of Rastafarians as, as, you know, just Bob Marley smoking weed. But there's actually Rastafarians are actually spiritual leaders, they're people who take, you know, they take the Bible very serious. And so he wanted his children to have names that were conducive of the power he knows is inside of us. And so my name is actually Karamo Karega, which means an educated rebel. And so Karamo means educated, Karega means rebel. And, you know, as a child, I hated the name because I hated being different. I wanted just, I wanted, you know, John, Jason, anything that was easy. You know, Tevin, and then to have Karamo, but now as an adult, I love it. And I'm so thankful that I stand out with a name that like makes people take a moment to say, what is it? Who are you? And then also to say, tell me more about that. And I appreciate it.

You know, I just feel that it's very unfair to people named Craig or Ray Earl. Like, I feel like the whole interview you just gon' flex and it's gon' always be something else that you gon' try to give us to show us how cool you feel.

I'm gon' flex with the name. Not a lot of things I flex with. I'm gonna flex with the name. I love it now. I went through a time I didn't love it. I mean, literally, I let people give me every nickname. I was KK, KB, K Smooth. I even went one year—

K Smooth! K Smooth!

K Smooth! During my junior year of high school, I just walked into school and was like, let everybody call me Jason. I don't even know where Jason came from.

Why?

Don't know.

Why?

Don't know. But literally, no one blinked. Everyone was like, oh, yeah, Jason. And for a year, I was Jason Ray.

Every—

for a year, I still had people hit me up on Facebook and be like, oh, Jason, why you change your name to Karamo? And I'm like, yeah, whole year.

Well, I'm so glad you didn't give up Karamo, bro, because that's a super flex name. Super flex. And then it also fits you because now being on television, it gives you this, you know, kind of gives you this celebrity type of pop culture type of identity where Like I said, because it'd be hard for you to be Ray Earl and be on Netflix, you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? It's like, that'd be difficult if your name was Rick and Leon, you know what I'm saying? So now that you're on the Netflix show, you're bringing something different to the table. Back then, especially culture back in the day, meant like art museums and things like that. But now, what was it for you that that change was very important for you?

Well, the show Queer Eye that I'm on now is a reboot. In the early 2000s, it was on Bravo. And it featured 4 white men and 1 Latino guy. The Latino guy had my role. He was, you know, and his role was undefined. So he would sort of just give out tickets. You know, everybody else would actually have a task. They would do someone's hair. They would, you know, cook for someone. They would, you know, redesign their whole home. And he would just sort of like, here's a Broadway ticket. And so first of all, for me, I'm way too smart, got way too much education to be giving nobody Broadway tickets. No shade, no, you know, like, I'm past those days. But also on top of that, you know, my training is in mental health. You know, being in social services, working in that field for so many years, I understood how important mental health was to the journey that anyone goes through in this world. Because if you can't get your mental right, if you can't get your self-esteem right, everything else you do around you will crumble. Because the foundation of who you are is not clear with yourself. And so you'll never have that opportunity to reach where you want to reach. And so I said, if I'm going to have this opportunity I got to redefine it. So I looked in the dictionary, and it said culture is also shared attitudes and values. And we know the shared attitudes and values that we have is what makes up our mental health and our self-esteem.

And—

or it shouldn't, but it does a lot of times. And so I said, you know, I'm going to go into this with mental health. And season 1 and season 2 of this show, they fought me the entire time. They were like, this is a show about 5 gay guys. Y'all supposed to be laughing and kiki-ing and twirling. And I said, no, ma'am. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. I said, I'm going to have some heartfelt conversations. I need to have conversations to get to the core of why these people are stuck. Because there's a reason you had to call a show into your life to fix the things that you are dealing with every single day. There's a reason that you didn't feel confident in coming in. 'Cause there's no, we don't give nobody money. There's no payout. So you had to, you had to be at your last point where you were like, nobody else can help me. I can't help myself. And I said, if we're getting here, then I need to really get to the core because you can change someone's hair. You can change someone's clothes. You can change someone's decor in their house. You can change what they're eating for a little bit. But if you don't change why in their minds that they weren't living their best life, then they're just going to go right back to it. And so after season 2, they were like, OK, we see what you're doing, and it's working. Like, the audience is responding. So we want to go full force with this. And so my category actually turned into full mental health.

I got to ask you, though, was it offensive to you, though, when you started to feel that the network was trying to lean into those traditional stereotypes?

It was completely offensive. It was offensive because I think sometimes we don't expose the world to things outside of those stereotypes, and so we try to, you know, we try to just go with them because we feel like it'll make people more comfortable. And listen, in the LGBT community, there are people who are more effeminate, more masculine. There's people who— do it all. And so for me, I like to have the variation. And so what was offensive was not that they wanted me to do those things. What was offensive was, why not just let me be me? And whatever that comes with will still add value to the show instead of trying to pigeonhole me into what you think the audience wants to see from me. And I think that's what was most offensive, that it's still in these days we don't allow people to be their authentic self because of whatever fear we have of how people are going to respond. And, and so that's what that was. But, you know, you have to fight through it. You just have to believe in yourself and have that conviction and vindication.

And what, what made me very excited to have this opportunity to be able to talk with you is because watching you, it is very obvious that you come to the table with an intellectual perspective that is very impressive in that it allows us to even engage on so many levels of the conversations that historically have separated us. But when you see though, as most of the individuals that are talking about what these shows need to be, they're also people that are sometimes not engrafted into the culture. And so how important was it for you to make sure that the authenticity of whether it's from your community or from your Black experience, that when you have these powers that be and they think that they know what every community needs, because you know what I'm trying to say? Like there's an executive that thinks that they are the oracle for every community, right? How do you walk through that to make sure that every part of culture is not colonized?

Yes. Well, a large part of it is, is acknowledging, first of all, going to these spaces that this is gonna happen. So I don't walk into any space without being fully aware. And I know as Black folks, as a gay man, because those are two marginalized communities, marginalized in different ways, and so I cross those two identities. And so when I walk into a room, obviously, subconsciously, I know the shit that I'm gonna have to deal with. I know— excuse me for cussing— I know the things that I'm gonna have to go through.

No, no, no, no, hold. Time out, time out, time out. I get sick and tired when people come on my show and they always apologizing for cussing! Thank you. I just wanted to get that out.

Well, you know, it's not just you, Kirk. It's because we're from— we— I'm from the sort of the how TV works, that, you know, I'm not on, you know, certain channels where like cussing is just like whatever. It's usually if there's a cuss word, we gotta stop, do everything over again.

So I want to invite people on here to be human. I need human conversation.

I'm with you.

The only way that we heal this way— human conversation.

I hear you, I hear you. Okay, I hear you, I hear you, I hear you. So I'm saying, I'm saying with that, I know the shit that we're going to go through as I walk in. But it's also consciously and loudly saying, I know what's going to happen here. There's going to be individuals in this room who are going to think they know better about my culture and who are also going to try to use me to allow other people to feel comfortable and appropriate in my culture. And I'm not going to allow that. So by saying it out loud and being clear about it is how I sort of like allow myself to walk in these spaces and not let my Blackness be used, the fact that I'm part of the gay community be used or to be tokenized in certain ways. And there was fights. I mean, I've been fighting. Before we came on the interview, you talked about me having a hat on. When I was on "The Real World," I remember they would not let me shoot the opening because I had a fitted hat on. And I was like, if you a Black man who grew up in hip-hop culture between 1985 to 2000 and today, You always had a fitted hat. And so when I was on "The Real World," the fact that they would not let me wear a fitted hat in the opening was a crazy thing because I was like, this is part of my culture. This is who I am. This is what I— this is what I— and then I remember when we started "The Real World" as well, I came with a hat and they was like, can you not wear the hat? We can't get this cleared with this, whatever. And I was like, how you get everybody else stuff cleared but you can't get this cleared? And this is the microaggressions you go through that you just have to acknowledge, say out loud, and then just be convicted that you're not going to lose the opportunity. The only thing that you could lose is yourself. If you don't step up, speak up, and try to keep moving forward. And so I try to always keep myself in that frame when I'm walking through these spaces when it comes to my Blackness and my identities and all that stuff.

So, you know what? Let's also go back to that moment. That was such a transformative moment back in 2004 on "The Real World." For you being one of the first gay Black men on reality television, especially at a time when people's understanding of gay identity was mostly based on stereotypes, that the pressure had to be on you to try to always be the teacher, the educator of what it was and what it meant and just the variables and just all the nuances of what that looked like. Can you take us back for a second how that was for you right there in 2004 in that pivotal moment?

Yeah, so it was exciting going into the process because I think if I wasn't the first, I'm only the second gay Black man that was on reality television at the time. So there was no others, you know, there wasn't a long list or anything. But I will tell you this is that at the time, I had just finished college. I just, you know, left FAMU, Florida A&M University. Rattlers go. And so when I got there, it was all about having fun, releasing, doing something that, you know, we never thought I would have the opportunity to do. It wasn't until I got in there that I realized, oh, ain't no other Black gay guys been on here? Oh, y'all are looking at me confused? You know what I mean? For the first 3 episodes, every roommate I had jaw dropped when I said I like guys. You know, it was always just like, what? Hold on, you prayed with me yesterday, you know, when I was crying. And, you know, and now you're saying you like— Oh, what do you mean? Your clothes are baggy. What do you mean you like guys? Oh, your voice is deeper. You're tall.

What do you—

And so there was all of that that kept happening. It was like all these foolishness. But, you know, one of the things that my father taught me, who I've recently reconnected with and I give him so much honor, is that he always taught me that, like, my presence in the world is supposed to educate and teach, and I shouldn't be afraid of that responsibility. And I think we all have that responsibility. It's a privilege to be able to educate and teach people. And yes, it gets exhausting, especially when they're outside of your race or outside of your community. It's like, I don't want to have to teach you. I acknowledge that. But for me, I take pride in it. I love educating people and saying, like, here's different perspectives, here's things to learn. I think that's part of the reason I'm on this planet. Earth. And so yes, it felt annoying for a bit, but also I was like, here's an opportunity for y'all to grow. Here's an opportunity for us to talk and for you to grow and for things to change and be better. And I appreciate it because it started dialogues and conversations that people weren't having. You know, there's a scene from, from that episode on The Real World when I, you know, let my roommates in to who I am. That their mouths drop. And it's like one of those critical moments, and I'm like, if anybody looked at that today, they'd be like, damn, they really were that shocked that yo gay ass? But I'm thankful for it because I was able to have a conversation with them. I was able to really tell them how I live and who I am. And also, Black gay culture is not talked about a lot on TV. I mean, it's getting a little bit better now, but before, it was all white gay culture. It was white gay men and the things that white gay men do. Black gays don't do. You know, we are not— we're not walking around doing certain— you go to a Black gay club, everybody got an outfit on. It's like church. You come in with your flyest outfit. And this is not to fully generalize, but that's the truth of it. And so I need to let them in to know that the culture and experiences of gay Black people are different than those of white gay men.

I am here to be able to, to just have this incredible opportunity, man, to hear you talk and share and to just bring a level of experience to the table for a conversation with a community that does not always have these opportunities to have non-threatening, non-confrontational conversations, but to be able to hear each other. And I would love, if you don't mind, if we could just try to walk through the process, be as didactic as possible to just walk through your journey and your experience with Christianity. Because I think it is a very important place within history right now because there's so many people that are trying to walk through the space of understanding God's love, understanding what they read, understanding what it means to read within the framework of love and not hate, to understand the balance, to be able to figure out how do they keep their love for their faith and their love for their children that are gay or any part of the LGBTQIA+ community, whatever that may be. And hopefully, with the level of compassion and respect that we have with each other, hopefully we can help some people today. You know, you know, hopefully we can really try to do some good, if nothing else, but just plant some seeds. I say all the time that it's very important for me as a heterosexual man to be able to have conversations with all groups of people, because if my Christianity is so weak that I only have it with people that think the way I think, I think something is wrong with my Christianity.

Amen.

That if it's so fragile that it can only exist in the boxes that it traditionally lives in, then there's something very weak about that statement of faith. That my faith should be so strong enough that if I wanna have a conversation with an atheist about Mars, I should be able to have that conversation and we both leave feeling like that there was an honor and respect for humanity.

Don't you agree? I do agree. And it takes time. You know, people are not conditioned to want to grow. We're not conditioned this way. We're conditioned to— from school, think about it. They don't teach you to go to school so that you can like figure out exactly what your passions are. They tell you, you go to school, you learn this, the bell rings, you learn this, you learn this, you learn what we want you to learn. And then you go about and then you just continue on what we want. People aren't conditioned to feel comfortable in growth.

You know what I mean?

And so it's hard sometimes when we're having these conversations with people who are different because it causes us to grow. And it's easier just to say, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to talk and grow right now. I want to go ahead and sit back what I know is comfortable and just do what I need to do. But it's in that growth that, as you say, and while you're doing this, is everything becomes beautiful. And when we talk about the LGBT community, in my experience, definitely, you know, church, just being Black and being from the Caribbean, both were very important. Like I said at the beginning of this with Stomp, Tell me about that.

It was, it was, it was just tell me about Wednesdays, Sundays.

It was every— it was Sunday, I could not listen nothing but Kirk Franklin in the house. That was it.

You could only listen to one song and it was the only one.

Oh no, you listen, you listen, that's it. I mean, like, you might buy, like, once it hit 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, started getting away with something else in the household, but it was none of that, you know what I mean? We were at church, you come home, you eat, We still gonna clean, gospel gonna be on. This was the experience, you know what I mean? There couldn't have been a meal or a snack without a prayer. We weren't walking into a meeting without a prayer, you know what I mean? To ask God to guide us. It was a constant conversation in my house, and still to this day is. But it also caused me extreme pain, as I said, when I started to identify as gay and started to let my family in and let them know. Because I'll give you a prime example, my father, When I said to him at 15 that I am gay, he immediately and his brothers decided and said, "No, that ain't it. You are not of God anymore, and we are not with you." And I stopped having a relationship with my father at 16, all the way up until I was 40. So this is just recent. And when I tell you that I stopped having a relationship, my father was somebody who, even though he— I was still in his house, From 16 to 18, literally, we wouldn't talk. He would still— and this is the thing, it was a warped way of living because he would still leave the Bible open and leave my lunch money in it, but he wouldn't talk to me. So I would have to see the Bible to get my lunch money. He would pray for me, but not talk to me no more. He would literally not talk to me in the house. And I'm talking about from 16 to 18.

Like, we would not have communication at all, but yet he was still a present father.

I wish that I could say like he just abandoned me, abandoned me and like left me. He was still there in this sort of Christian— and I'm doing air quotations, who can't see— Christian-like way of like, I'mma love you, but I'm not gonna be around you. I'm not gonna talk to you. I'm gonna show you that I don't agree with what you're being and who you are. And it was the most hurtful thing that how a man who told me every single day that he loved me, that he said he saw a bright future for me, that he saw that my world's gonna be amazing. He's the one who filled me with all the dreams to believe I could achieve what I've achieved now. All of a sudden, one day said, nope, no more. And it hurt me to my core that we fought, we fought. There was a small time that I, during college, just said, you know, forget this. I ain't going to church no more. I'm not doing this. Like, the church is— I ain't with it. You know what I mean? Because I was like, if the church can't reconcile their relationship with how I love myself and how authentic I am with their relationship with God, text, because it wasn't God that was telling them to hate me or tell my father to hate me. It was some perceived text that someone else had written. And I know I get to this tricky—

Yeah, but hold on, hold on, hold on. I gotta stop you though. I gotta stop you though. But there's never a text that would ever tell somebody to hate you.

Agreed. That's why I said perceived text. There was no text. Yeah, perceived text. And so because it wasn't God—

There was never a text that ever said hate. Exactly.

And so that's what always got me of like, And so even those who, as I went through, who didn't hate me like how my father was hating me, I still got that, you know, that the BS of, you know, like, "Oh, I'mma love you, but I ain't gonna love your sin." I'm like, "Baby, you over here cheating on your husband. Don't pray for me. You do what you do." And it wasn't anything, but it caused me a lot of pain for many years. It caused me a lot of pain, and it caused me to reject the church. And it wasn't until I moved to California after college that I was like, I want to go back. And— Why? Why?

Why? Why would you want to go back to a community that was antithetical to where you were as a human being?

Because I missed my community. It's just what it was. It just— it's like— it was like— it was like I have to figure out how to go into this space and try to make change because I miss them. Like, the thing is that we're all human beings, and for all of our good, we all have some bad. We— ain't not one person here perfect. Though we are perfectly designed, we are not perfect. And I just had to say, like, there has to be something within these individuals that I can talk to and still communicate with and find love and find connection and try to teach and educate, have the conversations. And so I went back and I went back to this church called West Angeles, West Angeles Church of Christ out here in California, where I still go. Yeah, yeah.

Bishop Blake. Bishop Blake.

And so I went there because I just missed being around Black folks. I missed being around You know, I missed Sunday morning hearing church music, you know, and all those things. And it was hard when I first got there because I'd meet people as I was trying to get involved in church. It was like, oh, no, no. I'd say, this my boyfriend, and they were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I would ask those people individually, can we have a conversation? Can we meet outside of church and have a conversation about why you think it's a no, no, no, why you can't love me, why it's not.

Would they meet you after church to have that conversation?

I would say majority of them did. There was only like a few who didn't. Because most of them would meet me, but most of them would meet me because they were ready to argue me and tell me how I was wrong. And, you know, so they would meet me. But again, I would meet them with— and this is not everyone's task. And I say this again, this is not the task of anybody in the LGBT community to feel like they have to then submit themselves to more, you know, like more abuse to then find connection. But for me, I knew that it was part of my purpose. It was part of what I'm here to do. And I would have these conversations with them and say, what is it about me loving myself authentically? Like, if I was— you know, the reason I use the term coming out is because everyone's like, you came out of a closet. And I'm like, if I came out of something, if I came out of a closet, there better be a pot of gold in that closet for all the BS I've been through. And after I get my money, my reparations, I'm going to then burn down this closet so nobody has to deal with this shit ever again. Because this is not easy. This is just— This is who I am. This is how God made me. It is replicated in nature. And when people say, no, no, that's not how it is, I'm like, why would anybody choose the hardest path to walk? For what? For what? It's because this is who I am. And I would have these conversations with people, and I would say, just talk to me. Let's have a get-to-clarity. And a lot of times we got to an understanding, and there was love involved, there was respect. There was empathetic listening involved. But then a lot of times there was people who was like, nope, you going to hell. I'm not listening to it. This is just what it is. You're not going to have the life you want. And I had to say to myself, I'm going to model the relationship with my relationship with God that you don't have, where I'm going to say I love you and I respect you and I pray that you come around. And would walk away.

Was there ever any conversation? Were there ever any conversations around coffee and anything like that that you were even able to hear maybe some of their thoughts and perspective that maybe in a non-confrontational, loving space it gave you even more insight on maybe where they were coming from?

Of course, always. I always went to these things listening because I'm the type of person—

And I have so much respect for you for that. I have so much respect for you for that because I think that if we just keep having monologues and never get to dialogues in society, we will never get to empathy and connection.

I agree with you 100%. That's why I said a big part of what I was doing was empathetic listening, because empathetic listening means that I'm not going in with an agenda. I have to be able to, when you start talking, Be quiet and listen to what you're saying. Mm-hmm.

With that, we're going to take a quick break.

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And let's get back into it.

And I think that if I want that, I have to get it from someone else. And again, this is why I keep clarifying, this is not everyone else's task because some people don't want to do this. The same thing when like Black folks are like, when white folks are like, I don't want to walk in here and have to teach you right now and have to listen to you. I'm tired of it. But there's some individuals that say this is part of my path and my journey and I'm okay with bearing this burden.

Yes.

And I would listen. I would listen hard because I wanted to know. And it was— part of it was also selfish of why I would listen to what they had to say, because I was trying to figure out how to reconnect with my father. And so it was like, well, let me hear what you saying. Let me hear what you talking about, because I know he clearly feel the same way you feel. Let me hear what you saying. And I would listen, and I would listen, and they would listen. And we would get to a place where they understood that all I am bringing is love. The only thing I want is to love someone, to find the same emotional attachment you have, to be respectful. Respected. That's it that I want. You know what I mean? These agendas of like, we're trying to change somebody, like they're trying to be something with kids, and you know, we're trying to make kids feel as they—

Horrible.

That's horrible. None of it's true.

That's horrible. That's horrible.

And you know, and I say this to say, those conversations is what led me to now my father coming around because I was empathetic with him, where at 70, he called me last year and was like, I'm sorry. He said, I don't know how in the world I spent the last 30 years making you feel bad for you being you and making you feel like you weren't good enough in the eyes of the Lord. And I'm sorry, and I want to be back in your life, and I'm so sorry. And it wasn't nothing to do with money, fame, nothing. He just genuinely heard the conversation that I was having and decided enough was enough with the hate or disrespect. And now I let him back in, and we've had a great relationship for the past year and a half.

Listen, I want to give you some context that I've been really wanting, and I've been anticipating this, this, this, this opportunity. I want to tell you why Karamo, for me as a Black heterosexual Christian gospel artist, would be honored to have a conversation with a gay Black man on my podcast. I want to give you some backstory. I was raised in a community that was a community full of the arts. I was raised in the '70s, raised in the '80s, and I was raised in church where all of the choir directors, most of the choir directors, most of them, most of the musicians, most of the dancers, most of the storytellers, they were all gay Black men. So I was raised in a community being in the Black church, in the Black hood of the Black churches. All of the men that were incredible at their gifts and talents, talents in gospel music, for the most part, a lot of them were gay Black men. And these were loving and kind and generous and gifted and just talent, just bananas. I mean, just off the radar. And I remember as a young boy, them sitting in sermons and them being victims of the weaponization across the pulpit of sermons like, "God made Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve." But at the same time, they would be used for their talents because they could make the fire, sing, and they can make everybody shout. But when it was time for real life, they were ostracized, right? And then I remember also getting older, and because I wasn't good in sports and I went to a school that was strong in music and dance and theater, all of my friends, the majority of my friends in my community, they were all gay young men. And so these were my friends, and they believed in my talent, and they believed in my gift to the point, Karamo, that most of my high school years I was labeled as a young gay man. And it was, and it was hard for me. It was embarrassing because I knew that, you know, my, my attractions was someplace else, but my love for these men was so respected, and they had great, great respect for it. It's like, you're going to be something, you know. They believed in me when my mom and daddy didn't believe in me. And then as I got older, I remember being a young man when the AIDS epidemic hit, and I remember losing a lot of these men. I remember every week going to a funeral, every week, once somebody that was a loving man in our lives, or, you know, one of my play aunts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I'm talking about? You know, and with funerals, and then when my career took off, I'm buying AZT medicine, and I'm trying to help my friends that were HIV positive. And so I'm giving the context for you to know that the reason why I have always had a level of compassion and empathy for the LGBTQIA+ community is because it has been part of the framework of who I've been as a young man, to the point again of also being ostracized with the jokes and the ridicule. And I even remember telling my young sons when they were younger, I told them, there's nothing that you could ever tell me about who you love that I would ever stop loving you. I remember telling them that. I remember telling both of my sons that when they were young. And so as I walked through my own experience of believing God, God's word and believing God's love, I have always had a compassion to destroy and debunk the hate that was always packaged in the conversation. And so because of that, you being in a community that is also not monolithic, how do you feel when you see other individuals in your community that, that, that define themselves as Christian but they may not necessarily share your biblical view of how they execute their lifestyle. It's because I know you've probably heard this, you probably know this, that there are gay Christian people that subscribe to a more traditional view of scripture. There's a young lady out right now that's really popular. I don't need to check her out. Her name is Jackie Hill Perry, and she's an incredible speaker. I had a great friend that died when I was younger, and his view of his sexuality was different than maybe what some liberal people in community would be. So basically, my question is to you: how do you process when you meet people that define themselves as gay and Christian, but they subscribed to their choices in a more traditional way of how they read scripture?

Um, when I meet those individuals, I do the same thing that we talked about on this, and the same thing you said to your son. I'm gonna just love you as you are. We're all on a journey, and I can't expect someone who is gay and Christian who maybe views their life— they're doing what they feel they must do so that they can live their best life. They are doing what they feel like they must do to survive. And so I would never want to sit here and say, oh no, you wrong for that. If you feel like you're doing a more traditional way of the way you view your Christianity and the way you're approaching the world, you're wrong. Because that's me just passing on the same bigotry that was passed on to me. And I don't want to do it. I can only love you right where you're at. And if you want information on why I feel the way I do, then we'll have that conversation. But I'm only going to love you right where you're at. And I think that's what it is. I can love them where they're at. And so I meet those Christians and, you know, I'm just like, that's fine. You gay, you Christian, and you want to go this route? I see you.

Go for you.

Do you. It's not how I'm choosing to live my life. It's not how I'm deciding to walk my path. But I'm gonna love you right where you're at.

How do we copy that? See, see, see, what you're doing is so healing though. How, how do we copy that and we spread that within the world where there's this level of empathy to be able to allow people to be able to exist with their convictions and their views, and we do not ostracize and cancel people because they do not have the same view that is part of the more bigger popular culture frame?

Well, I think it's, I think it's more about like intention intention versus impact. And so if your intention when you're saying things and doing things is one thing, but once you realize the impact is another, I think that's when we have to do it. So when we're talking about having these deeper conversations and people being respectful and loving of others and like just meeting them where they are, it's of course, it's difficult to get there. But if your intention is to do it, then you have to start practicing. You have to start making moves every single day to show people you're going to love them and meet them. It's first acknowledging this is what I want to do. It's taking a stance on this is who I am. This is what I want to do. Then it's taking the first, second, third, fourth step to actually doing that. And so, because your intention is now in line with one thing, but as you're on that path and your intentions are to do this, to love somebody where they're at, if you find yourself doing something where your impact is then negative, instead of saying, oh no, look, they just don't want me to be who I am, they don't want me to whatever, it's to like take a step back, relax, and realize that their feelings are just as valid as yours, and then reroute yourself to that intention again. Again. And I think sometimes people have a hard time with when confronted with the fact that their impact is hurtful, of not feeling as if they're being attacked, but instead realizing that it's okay to hear that your words are hurting someone, the things that you're doing is hurting someone, that it's okay to take a step back and realign and get back on that intention of just loving somebody where they're loving. But it takes practice. And we have to all be gentle with ourselves as we practice this. Like, I give that story about, you know, meeting people at coffee. Yeah, I did it. But there's a couple of times somebody— people pissed me off and I would cuss their ass out and walk out the coffee house and be like, when I see you in church on Sunday, don't say nothing. But there was also a lot of times that I practiced going back and saying, I'm sorry. My intention was to come in here and to hear you and to be empathetic and to try and have respectful conversations. And I realized the impact that I felt you had made me lash out. So I'm going to reroute and I'm going to go back to this because if I walk away now, neither of us are going to grow. We're just going to go back to our corners and feel validated in how we're doing and how we're living. So let's try to bring it back. And so I think it's just practicing, practicing daily and being patient with yourself and also recognizing your intention versus your impact.

Yes, I'm trying to catch my breath on this, man, because you, you, you are— and I'm trying to hold back. I'm not going to lie, bro. I'm, I'm trying to hold back a little bit of water from my eyes right now because because so many people have really needed this type of conversation. I thank God that I'm able to have this conversation with you, you know, because— I mean, you know that there have been so many homes, especially in our community, that the issue of sexuality has caused family members to not speak to each other anymore. It's caused people to be without the family members. There's no love in the conversations. All people do is yell and just have the spirit that is so un-Christlike. And to be able to hear you talk about this level of patience and understanding with people as you do life. And see, don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong, Karamo. I get it. When you come from communities that you've been laughed at, you've been marginalized, you've been hated, you've got young kids committing suicide and you have people that have had hate crimes against them because sexuality. I get it. I get the lack of patience that some people have trying to do life on the planet. A lot of people of color have a lack of patience trying to educate, like you said, white people about why this is this and issues that are more systemic. But if we're going to live on this planet together, if we're going to live on this planet together, we need some more Karamos. You know what I'm saying? We need some more warriors. We, we need some more warriors of love. We, we, we, we need some more people. It's because you can't say that somebody's grandmama is homophobic just because she may not understand her granddaughter coming out. They've got to walk into life together. We can't cancel Nana, you know what I'm saying? We, we just can't cancel Nana. But the compassion that you're talking about gives Nana and the grandbaby a chance to do life together, and we can't put them on our stopwatch, you know what I'm saying? They gotta have this fixed tomorrow.

Yeah, you know, they take some time.

Yes. And see, we want to cancel people. And, and one thing I can say to you is, somebody that has to confess he loves Jesus, that is so antithetical. Jesus don't cancel nobody.

Exactly.

Jesus don't cancel nobody. God don't cancel nobody. But we're so quick to throw each other away because it may take us longer on the journey to have the conversation. Even if we get to the end of the road and we lovingly see the finish line We got there together, and I want to make sure you got there healthy, and you got there with food on your stomach, and you got there feeling like a human being. Amen. So I just wanted to tell you, man, that you brought tears to my eyes today, brother. I'm—

I appreciate you.

I appreciate you.

Can I tell you something else? And this is gonna be a little— and I hope this is received with positivity, 'cause it's how I mean it. I mean it with love and positivity. You also have— you play a very big role, because there's something else that you do unconsciously, maybe, because I remember growing up and being in the household, and like, as you talked about your influence around gay men, you know, people used to like accuse you of being a gay man. And the way that you handled it, so respectful and so loving, is a beautiful thing. Because I think about all the cousins I've had who they do something and everybody want to be like, oh, you acting gay, you gay now, you gay now. And it makes them shrink as men when it But it makes them shrink as a man, especially Black men. It makes them shrink and it makes them start thinking that for some reason they're less than. And what I just even heard in your conversation before we talked about this, but even before just watching you, even when you said right now the gay men that were around you encouraged you, loved you, made you know that you were worth it, that I wish that more Black men understood that when they're told that something they're doing is gay-like, quote unquote, you know, air quotations, that stop looking at it as derogatory. It takes nothing away. I have friends that are straight. Straight and Black, that someone say, oh, you act gay, and they don't give a damn because they going home to their wife and they about to have whatever woman they— you know, whatever woman it is. It doesn't affect them. And I just always have loved how on your journey— and I'm sure it did affect you at times— but from the outside perspective, I just respected and appreciated you not playing into the, okay, you call me gay, now I'm less than. Now I gotta— now I gotta retreat. Now I gotta go have, you know, 14 women around me just to show you I'm not gay. I appreciated always your respect for yourself as a Black man, but also the respect for the gay Black community by not feeling like you have to be resentful or negative to prove your manhood, because your manhood just stood out and your talent just stood out without you having to do it. And I think it was a great example for a lot of people, and I know it resonated with me. And I just hope that more straight Black men watch you and take your lead and Hey, you calling me gay, that ain't no insult. You ain't doing nothing to me. You know what I mean? That's like somebody calling me straight. You ain't doing nothing to me. You know, like, okay, great, you call me straight. I'm still me and I'm still gonna do what I wanna do and love who I wanna love and achieve what I wanna achieve. And you were a prime example of that. So thank you as well. We need more Kirks in this world as well, just to say that.

Wow, wow, wow. It's, I'm not gonna cry. It's, I'm not gonna cry. It's, I'm not gonna do it. It's, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. This is my podcast. This is my podcast. This is my podcast. Listen, my podcast, I'm not gonna do it. Thank you so much. I do want to ask you something that I think can be real fun for us real quick. I— you said something, you said something, and first of all, your words have a healing that you'll never realize. Thank you. I'm just gonna say that real quick. Um, you made a comment about church, and I thought it was so funny. I thought it was so funny, and I want to know, um, Reverend Bishop Karamo, if, uh, Reverend Deacon, uh, the Deacon, uh, Elder, Elder Apostle, you said, you said, uh, Rama, that if you're not having fun at church, you should pick another church.

I agree.

And, and I want to know, and I want to know, Rama, if we can just get into a little conversation that we may have a different view on this, and I, and I want to have a good time with it. Now, now, you would not say that to me if I felt that way about going to the gym. That if I said to you, if you're not having fun going to the gym, you're going to the wrong gym. Because if I'm not hurting, and if I'm not sweating, and if there's no pain, there's no progress. If I go, if I leave the gym and just have fun. I do believe sometimes that we have made Jesus and church the buffet.

Uh-huh.

Where I'ma go get only what I want, only taste what I enjoy, but all the stuff that makes me want to grow and become better, stuff that stuff that'll check my stank attitude or stuff that'll deal with my laziness or stuff that'll deal with my character. I don't want none of that. I just want to have a good time and tell my neighbor, "Won't eat no bacon." So let me tell you something.

Hold on, I got to tell you this. We on the same page. We on the same page. We do not disagree. Because the thing is, and if you've heard this before me as I've said this on your podcast, I think there is fun in growth. You've heard me say this. A couple of times here.

Oh, okay. The work, okay, okay.

It's fun for me. The, the talking, the growing, that's what the fun is. Okay, let me say something. When I'm— when I go to a party and I know every single body, and I go to the same party, I know everybody, I know what you're gonna order, I know what's gonna happen. Yeah, it's fun the first time, it's fun the second time because it's comfortable. By the fourth, tenth time, I'm like, why am I coming here? There's nothing challenging.

There's nothing different here.

There's nothing new here. And that's the same for church. If I'm going every day and there is only just turn to your neighbor and say neighbor, if there's only that, if there's only a good, you know, a good like we dance and we have a good time, then that's not fun to me.

Karamo!

Yes, sir.

Karamo!

What's up?

You had a baby! You had a baby.

Unintentionally, unintentionally. That was not part of the plan. But God had a bigger plan, Let me tell you that much. Karamo.

Karamo, we gotta talk about.

You had a baby. Listen, listen. It was not part of the plan, so I'll be quick with this. When I was. I told you.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Take your time. Take your time. You don't have to be as quick as the experience was. OK. OK. Because it was quick.

The experience was quick. Quick and done.

No, so you know, we all had the pressures.

Everybody was, when I was 10, 9, baby, who your girlfriend? You got a girlfriend yet? I felt the pressures. And so I had my best friend. She was my best friend, became my girlfriend, even though I had already told her that I identify as gay. But she was like, it's OK. You know, we fine. We are 15.

She thought you was cute.

She thought I was cute.

She thought you was cute.

I think in her young mind, even though I had said I'm gay, You know, it's not like the social media now. This is 1995. So, you know, there wasn't as many examples of what it meant to be gay. So like, here it is, I'm on the football player, on the track team. You know, like, she's like, OK, you say you're gay, but I don't know what that really mean. I don't— I guess I know. And so basically, one day she was like, we should lose our virginity to each other. And I was like, what?

Huh?

I said, hold on now. I told you I'm gay. I don't know about this. She said, well, she said, I want to lose it, and I want to lose it to you so that It's safe. We love each other. I literally said, OK, begrudgingly. And this is not me. I don't shame women. I don't shame virgins. None of that. It just wasn't for me. And so at 15, we skipped school one day. We decided to stay home. And it took all of 45 seconds for us to start and finish. Start and finish. I'm not even joking. Start— it couldn't have been no more than 2 minutes. I'm not even joking. Start and done. And I said.

I said, karamo, hold on. You killing me.

You killing me. I said, no, no, no. And as we walked away, like, I've apologized to her now because I walked out of there, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, you know how. What's that movie, the Second Place, where she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's how it was. I was sitting on the side of the bed. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was not for me. That was not for me. And I apologize to her in our adult lives because I. I should not have done that, but we were both young. I should not have made it feel like it was all about you as a woman. It was about me. And she moved away right after that. She moved away. Her family moved because we grew up poor. And so I never saw her again. And then 10 years later, when I was 25, I was coming home from the club, and there was a stack of papers on my doorstep for back child support. And I thought it was a joke because, of course, I just got off the real world. So I thought they was trying to punk me. I thought Ashton Kutcher was in my house. I was like, OK. They about to punk me, because there's no way the gay guy got a kid. So they trying to punk me. Everybody in there going to try to play a trick.

Wow.

Walked in there. Nobody was in the house. I threw the papers down, literally threw them down, because I was like, these ain't for me. And then like 4 hours later, came, looked at the papers, and on the first page, I saw my name, and I saw her name. And I had not seen her name since we was 15. And then underneath that, I saw my son's name for the first time. And I freaked out. I was like, what the hell? And so I called my mama, and my mama was like, well, if you You said you did it once, so it all it take is one time. I don't care if it was a minute or two.

That sounds like somebody— Mama, that sounds like your mom.

She said, bring your ass back. She's in Texas. And I got on a plane maybe like a couple days later, and I started the process. And so the first thing we did is, before I even met her, I could talk to her, they— I took a DNA test, and then it came out positive. And that's when they gave me her information. I showed up on her doorstep, and when I showed up on her doorstep, she had no idea that they had contacted me because she had applied for benefits for food stamps for her other kids. And the state found me. So she had no idea that they was coming after me, that I was going to— that I knew anything. And she had told me that the reason she didn't tell me was not because she was being malicious. It's because coming from a broken home, she wanted one of us to have a life. And she felt like if she sacrificed herself— because she was like, I'm not going to have a life. These were her exact words. She said, I wasn't going to have a life. It wasn't destined for me to have a life. It was, you know, she was living with her grandma because her mama and her daddy was out there wilding. And she was like, I wasn't going to have a life. You know, she had her first baby at 15. By the time she was 23, she already had 5 children. She was like, I wasn't going to have a life. She said, but I wanted you to have one, so that's why I didn't tell you. And it broke my heart because I was like, damn, you gave up yourself and sacrificed instead of coming to me. And we could have worked it out together. And so I met my kid, and I fell in love that first day. It was like, it was amazing. Because he had never had no other father. His siblings are all light-skinned. He dark-skinned. So he felt always different. And I asked her after that first night if I could have shared custody. And being the angel she is, she said yes. And I moved back to Texas for a year to get shared custody. And as he was doing so good, we had a situation in the household where one of her other sons was about to be removed from the house. And because I worked in social services, he came to live with me for a little bit while they were doing placement. You know, this is normal in the—

Are you serious?

—this is normal in the Black family. We take other people's kids in so that we can figure things out. Oh, wow. And it was only supposed to last for 6 days. And it lasted for— he's 22 now.

Tell me, tell me. What you felt, Karamo, when you looked in that little boy's eyes for the first time? Oh my gosh.

It felt like everything that I felt was missing, that I knew was out there, that I didn't know what it was. Because there was a part of my evolution that I knew that I needed something next. But because I was a gay man, and at the time, you know, the option of having kids was not like how we talk about it now. It was like, nah, this ain't happening. For me. But I realized that fatherhood was part of my destiny, and raising another child and raising somebody up to not have the same trauma I had was part of what I was supposed to be on this earth to do. And when I saw him, I just felt— I mean, I cried. I loved him. There's nothing like that feeling of, like, seeing your child for the first time. Even though he was 10, you know, it was nothing like seeing that. And I fell in love. And the same thing with his little brother, who wasn't biologically mine. The first time like he was in my house and he came in the room and said, "Hey, Dad." And I said, "Oh, shit.

Dad?" I'm like, "Uh-huh." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Same feeling I felt. I just felt at ease and at peace, even through the anxiety and nerves. I just knew that this was where I was supposed to be. And it felt good. And now my son is 25 and 22, and they still get on my nerves living down the street. Actually, my oldest son just moved back in my house. And, um, I'm tired of it.

I don't know. And then— and then he tells you— your oldest, he tells you that he's an atheist. Oh, Jesus.

Let me tell you something. That's where I really had to try to figure out how I'm modeling love you where you're at, because that was a thing I had to say immediately. I was like, I'm gonna love you as you are. But it was difficult because I was the one that had to tell his mama that he don't believe in God. I had to tell his grandmas. He don't believe in God. Every single one of them was like, that's your doing. You was too loosey with him, not making him go to church on some Sundays. You ain't let him read the Bible. I was like, it wasn't none of that. It wasn't none of that. He made his choice on his own. And if I would have brought him to church every Sunday or not, this is who he was going to be because it was his own choice. And now half the family has come around to accept him and love him as an atheist. But there's still a very prominent side that does not respect and love my atheist child. But at the end of the day, he's still a good man. He has a good heart. And all he does is just show love in the world. That's all he does is just pour love in the world. And so I gotta— I'm like, if this is what being an atheist right now— yes, it's not my choice because I believe in God. But if this is what being an atheist is, being loving and supportive and being kind I get behind you. I can support this.

Was there ever any argument when you and him would have your dad and son conversations about his belief? Would he ever, ever bring up an argument to you that almost shook you?

I mean, the main one he brought up is he was like, oh, you believe in this church— is what we talked about earlier— you believe in this, this, in God, and all God has done has brought people into your life who have tried to break you down. So is that what your God is doing? 'Cause all your God is doing is bringing people in that's telling you you wrong for being gay, that you nasty, you this, you that, you going to hell. And he's like, if that's what your God is bringing into your life, then, oh, I definitely don't want no part of that. And for a second, I had to literally be like, ooh, okay. I immediately said to him, no, no, no, no, no. God has brought people into my life that have challenged me to be better and to grow. And so where you see it as someone bringing me down, I see it as a chance for God to elevate me to be better. Better. And so this is my perspective. It's a reframing of it. So when someone comes in my life and tries to do something, God has given them as an example for me to learn how to be better, not to crumble under what they say. And that was one of the first times I had to be like, okay, I got to be on my toes with this one because he gonna say some stuff out of his mouth that's gonna make me want to knock him out, but it's also going to put me in check of like, what are really my beliefs?

The question that I want to ask you is, where do Who do you talk to when you need some advice? Who do you go to when you need a pep talk?

I definitely go to my best friend of 25 years, Trey. Best friend Trey, as I call him. I go to him most of the time. And then I also look inward a lot. I mean, because, you know, it's great to have Gil for other people for the answers, but sometimes, you know, the answer is right inside of me, and it's just about facing it within myself. So I have a little corner, a little spot that's my quiet spot that, you know, I go to alone. Alone, and I just really turn to myself and say, what, what is going on with you? What is happening right now where you're afraid to go past this, to move past this, while you're allowing this? Do you think this is what you're designed for, what your life is supposed to be? And I just talk to myself about that, and I have hard conversations with myself because at the end of the day, I can get all the advice you want from somebody else, but if I don't really actually believe it to myself when I'm alone with me— Yes, sir. It's not going to change.

I want to ask you this as a young man that was adopted, and this will be my last question. You know, Karamo, you know, you're making money now. You know, you've got the big brick wall behind you. You know what I'm saying? You've got the big glass on the other side. My question to you is, what is the age cutoff for somebody to want you to adopt them? Like, would you mind adopting somebody that may be a little short on their money so that they can enjoy a nice big brick wall too, Karamo? I mean, you know, don't be selfish. Don't be selfish. I need to know. I need to know that if me and Tammy have a little hard time, would you re-adopt me?

You ain't gotta worry about it. Listen, you coming over. You and Tammy coming over and I'm gonna take care of y'all. If y'all go through a hard time, I got y'all, all right? It ain't gonna happen. Lord is gonna continue to bless y'all. But if that happen, I got y'all, all right?

Trust me. Let me tell you something, is I think that this interview for me, I am the most proud of this interview ever. This is something that for me makes me feel very good. Very, very thankful to have a conversation with somebody whose heart is just as big and compassionate as yours. You could have talked to anybody, you know, you a major pop star, and for you to take out time to talk to me— come on, man, you are, you are. You're not on, you're not on gospel radio, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're not on the Bobby Jones Show. I mean, you on mainstream Netflix TV, man, and you took out time to be with me, man. And, and I want you to know that, you know, I'm aware you didn't have to do this You didn't have to do this, and I love you for this. I want you to know that I love you for this, and I'm very thankful that you would allow me to just walk through this journey with you. And I pray that you felt, you know, love. I pray that you felt humility. I pray that you felt compassion for me because I celebrate you. And it was an honor to get a chance to meet someone such as yourself. And I'm forever thankful for you giving me this opportunity.

Listen, the feeling is mutual. I love you and I respect you, and I'm so thankful for all the work you do in the world. And this has been a joy and a good time, you know what I mean? Everybody need to be listening to the Kirk Franklin Podcast, okay? This is where it's at.

This is where the party's at.

This is where the growth is at.

This is where it's at.

This is where it's at.

Everybody need to be listening to this. You just showed your age when you said, "This is where it's at." Help me thank my brother for this incredible conversation. Conversation. This has been so transformative, and I hope you enjoyed it because I've been honored to have it. Please show some love for the legend, Karamo. Thanks, brother. Thank you, King. So thank y'all so much for listening to Good Words, man. I hope you are enjoying yourself. I hope you're, man, enjoying the journey that you're taking with your boy. And if you are, please do me a favor, leave a review on your favorite podcast app. Can you do that for me? I'd appreciate it. And don't you forget, you can never go too far where you can't come back home. Good Words with Kirk Franklin is a collaboration between For Your Soul Entertainment, Sony Music Entertainment, RC Inspiration, and Something Else. Produced by Janecia Francis with senior producer Danielle Jones Wesley. Associate producers are Dania Abdelhamid, Rachel Chodar, and Kyra Essibay Bunch. It's executive produced by Ron Hill, Reese Brooks, Sarita Wesley, Tom Koenig, Hybrid Agency, and myself, your boy Kirk Franklin. This episode was mixed by Calvin Bailiff, and special thanks to Charlie Yedor and Steve Ackerman.

Anybody, anybody ready? Anybody, anybody ready for good work? Yes! Anybody ready? Anybody, anybody ready? Anybody, anybody ready for good work? Spring just slid into your DMs. Grab that boho look for that rooftop dinner, those sandals that can keep up with you, and hang some string lights to give your patio a glow up.

Spring's calling. Ross, work your magic.