Karamo Brown

Well, the first person I was in love with was Brian Vandy.

Oh, yes. That gives it extra poignancy.

Yes. Who had the most amazing— we're still friends and he has the most amazing, beautiful wife and kids and is a baseball dad. And I'm like, I'm like, if you were a homo, we would have like that Oklahoma life right now.

Welcome to Podcrushed. We're your hosts. I'm Penn.

I'm Nava.

And I'm Sophie. And I think we would have been your middle school besties bonding over our shared disdain for the cool kids clique.

And no, of Of course we don't want to be part of it.

Why would we want to be part of the cool kids clique?

Welcome to Podcrushed.

I have a question for you guys. What's your favorite reality TV show?

Do you watch any reality of all time or currently?

Let's go currently.

Oh, currently.

I mean, The Voice is always current. Do you think The Voice will ever get canceled? It's a question.

No, I hope not.

It's in the season like 39. Um, that's the only one I— that's the only one I watch.

I should be embarrassed to admit this, but it's currently The Bachelor. It's not always The Bachelor, although I do— I have been watching The Bachelor since Nick Viall's season. I'm not going to lie.

But the current Bachelor— don't you?

Yes.

The current Bachelor, I can't say his last name. I'm going to say Joey G. Joey G. And his leading contenders, particularly Daisy, in my opinion, they're so lovely that it's like watching really good people fall in love is like very refreshing, which is not how I've always felt about that show. But I'm really enjoying it and I don't feel embarrassed to admit it this season because they're such good people. That's my read on it.

One show that I've been watching recently is Love Is Blind Season 6.

Oh, so much better.

So much better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How about something different?

So, but one interesting thing that I want to try with the next season. So I'm going to watch one more season.

I was going to say, I'm not off of it.

One thing I want to try.

Are you going to introduce blindfolds to this?

I want to try, because Elise Myers suggested this, um, is to watch the first episode of the next season of Love Is Blind blindfolded so that I can actually see what it— what they might be feeling.

I wonder if you'll last. That feels like it'd be uncomfortable. You'd be desperate to know.

I think I'd get bored, honestly.

But yeah, that is like— that, that is something that will never happen in my life. And maybe the only way I could watch Love Is Blind is blindfolded.

Yeah, today's guest is an from the reality television world?

No, who we have today is somebody who really elevates the entire reality— what genre, platform? We have Karamo Brown. You know him definitely from Queer Eye. Uh, you might know him also from his new daytime talk show Karamo, going into its second season.

If you're old like me, you might know him from The Real World, the OG reality show.

Yeah, that is true. And you know that the tagline for Karamo is, uh, he's, he's here in season 2 to embrace the mess. And I gotta say, we, we did that. We had stories that had all kinds of messiness in them, but the man has a very clean arc. Like, I just have to say that there was something about the way he told his stories, and there's something about the person he seems to have been from a very early age that, I don't know, I just, I was especially charmed. I really was.

It was a great episode.

Lovely guy.

It is, definitely. Please enjoy, proceed. We'll see you after the break.

It's morning in New York! Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast.

It's called Don't Listen to Us.

Many of you have asked for our advice Tell me, what is wrong with you people? Don't Listen to Us, our take-it-or-leave-it advice show, every Wednesday. Out now. A Lemonada Media original.

So we always start in adolescence, you know, middle school, like 11, 12, 13. So how were you seeing the world? What were your experiences like? You know, where were you also?

Sure. So 11, 12, I was in Houston, Texas, where I was born and raised until my parents got divorced when I was 16. Different story. But I was in Houston, Texas. I'm the youngest of sisters, so I was a very outspoken kid at school. At home, I was quiet because my sisters wanted nothing to do with me. It was like, how much older were they? Go to your room. Because my sisters are older than me. So the one that's closest in age is 5 years. So they were all already in high school going into college. So they wanted nothing to do with their little brother. Now that's changed. Now I'm a fool. Now they can't get enough of me. My phone rings every day with sisters. But when I was a kid, it wasn't happening. And so I spent a lot of time at home by myself as well. I started to identify as gay to myself very early. I'll be like 9, 10. And I also knew that I grew up in a very homophobic household, not because I was assuming it, just because I heard the things that were being said. So at home it was like, sisters didn't want anything to do with me. I know my parents love me, but I also know that that's conditional. So I'm just going to stay in my room and not be seen, not cause any problems. And then when I get to school, I'm going to run my mouth all goddamn day because I spent all day at home not saying anything. And I saw this meme recently that said, like, whatever you got written up for in school, what is your job now? And mine was always, he talks too much, he talks too much, he runs his mouth, he's always in people's business, he's always trying to help somebody. And I'm like—

He turned it into a career.

He turned it into a career. Yeah. So, yeah, so it was like, it was a very— it was clear. It was a clear split in the way my middle school was, you know, like elementary, middle school was of my personality.

Did you feel like you could be more yourself at school? Like, did your friends have a sense of sort of your identity and these things that you were grappling with or?

100%. Yeah. Yeah. Because I would get to school and I'd run my mouth and again, because I had sisters, I was more on the effeminate side just because of that's— those are my influences. And so I don't think any teacher at school didn't think that I was a homo. Like, it was just a kind of— it's kind of known, you know what I mean? Like, I spent most of the time, like, at my teacher's desk with my hands on my waist at 15. Like, what are you talking about? What are you doing? I have so many photos like this. And I'm like, I don't know what supermodel I thought of in my head. You know, I was doing poses. So yeah, they— it was— everybody was aware. Yeah. And also because majority of my schools were always all white. It was usually not that many people of color. I also was usually the tallest, so nobody ever bothered me. And so I was able to just be myself, be me, talkative, everything flamboyant in a way. And yeah, yeah. Whereas at home I was quiet. Yeah, stood still. Didn't get any trouble. Like, my parents to this day will say, they were like, you were the most— you were the best out of our kids. Like, you didn't say anything. You didn't give us any problems. And I was like, yeah, because I was terrified. So I just, you know, did the thing.

Do you— did your family have any sense of that difference between how you were at school and how you were at home?

Actually, if I— this is a story I've never told anybody. There was a time that in— it was 6th grade. My father had to come to school and he was cussing the teachers out, not literally cussing, because they had sent home like a thing for me talking too much. And he was like, you are a liar. You are racially profiling my child. You are. Because he was like, I know my child and my child is quiet and introverted. And he was like raging. And, um, I should bring that up to him because he, you know, they were just trying to fight him, but he was so convinced that I was like, I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to go with what he's saying. I don't want to get in trouble.

So I'm quiet.

Yeah, I'm quiet. Like, I don't know what you are talking about. And I got out of trouble that day because he argued the hell out of the teachers. Like, you're lying on my son. He is not. And then it was maybe like 2 weeks later, they called him in the middle of the day and was like, come up here and see your child. And I think I was like on a table, like acting out. And had him like peeking through the door. Yeah.

And then he's like, so they had the insight then to be like, this man does not know the whole story. So they called him up without letting you know.

Without letting me know. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But also props to your father for standing up for you like that.

That's really sweet.

Of course. Yeah.

Even though he was incorrect, but yeah, he was really incorrect.

So sweet. Yeah. Only reason it stands out is because that was the moment that I felt like my parents actually started to see the real me. It was like the cracks were in now.

Like, yeah.

I was going to ask, did you ever feel like there was a point where you could be yourself around your parents? Sort of how did that happen, if it happened?

Yeah. Once I became successful, it was like, eff what you think. I'm on TV now. You need to borrow money from me. It's not the opposite way around. I'll do whatever the hell I want. But no, I think it was when I was in adulthood, to be honest with you.

Yeah.

Yeah. It took a while because it was always— I grew up in a Caribbean household, so my family, they are not from this country. My parents are from Jamaica and Cuba. So there is a very, very specific way children act. And you were always respectful. You always say certain things, do certain things. And, you know, I never felt like my opinion mattered in my household, where with my kids, your opinion matters. So you can speak it to me in a respectful manner, you know? And so, yeah, so because of the way we were raised, I didn't really, until I became an adult, felt like I could now start saying things.

You don't have to answer any question you're not comfortable asking, but you, you do seem like an open book, but you've been really open about the importance of facing our fears in life and how that sort of helps us move through things. And I was curious, when you were a tween, a teen, what were you most afraid of and were you able to face it?

What was I most afraid of? I mean, the obvious was, I guess, people, you know, finding out at home that I was gay, but that also wasn't a fear. Because I kind of— because I already knew that they didn't like gays. I didn't fear it. It's like, you know, if you already know what the boogeyman looks like and where he sleeps and when he is, you're not, like, really afraid. Because at an early age, I already knew— I already had things in place if my parents were to ever act erratic. You know, even though I didn't make a real plan, but in my mind, I had a plan. Like, my best friend next door, his name is Brian Bandy. We were best friends. I had already kind of set up, like, I can stay here for weeks at a time, right? And the bandies were always like, yes, you can. Of course we'll take care of you. Of course we'll feed you. So that's why I was like, I wasn't fearful because I already had set up things.

I had already set up things at school. Figured out your plan.

I used to not spend my lunch money for the longest. I mean, even up until high school, I would get lunch money. I wouldn't spend it because I would save it just in case. I used to tell myself, if I need to buy a bus ticket, Wow. Which I never needed to do, but in my mind, I was setting up things. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm still that way. I'm a big planner. And so I'm always— and that started from then. Like, I plan, plan, plan everything ahead of time. Like, you're never going to catch me slipping on finances, on life, because I plan.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

But to answer your question, fearful, if I think about it, I think the thing that I was most fearful of is staying silent. Which is why I had so many outbursts at school, because I was like, I cannot be silent my entire life. Because my mother was abused by my father, and she was silent, and I knew that I didn't want to be her. And so I think I was most fearful of being silent, if I can be honest with you.

I don't want to jump out of middle school, but I feel like that's really profound, because when we were sort of doing research about this— and I actually watched The Real World Philadelphia— you were the first, like, openly gay person on reality television. And that's such an emblem of like not being silent at a time when everyone else was, you know? Yeah. That's like incredible.

How old are you? You look very young, girl. How old are you?

I'm older than I look. I'm 39. Okay.

Okay. That skin is good. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I guess you're right. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. It's always, I guess my entire career has been like speak up, talk out.

Like, yeah.

I mean, it's sometimes it's It's intentional and sometimes it's just not. So like the real world, I would say that it was intentional, but it wasn't like, I was like, oh, so I'm done with college and I can live in a house with two hot tubs and get free liquor.

Yeah. Thank you.

Oh, and by the way, you're the first openly gay Black guy. You know what I mean? And I was like, oh, oh, okay. But it still comes with liquor, right? So like, that was like, you know. So, I mean, it wasn't until after The Real World was done that, like, that title was put on me by the network. And it was like, you know what you just did? And I was like, right, right. Of course I didn't do anything. You all cast me. I was coming on here to have fun and liquor. Yeah.

Karamo, what were your first experiences around, like, whether it was a crush or whether it really felt like love, whatever that is, at middle school? Middle school, high school age, what were your first experiences around that for you?

Well, the first person I was in love with was Brian Van Dyke. Oh, yes.

That gives it extra poignancy.

Yes. Who has the most amazing— we're still friends and he has the most amazing beautiful wife and kids and is a baseball dad. I'm like, I'm like, if you were a homo, we would have like that Oklahoma life right now. But he was I just— I think it was just the fact that he was just so kind. I just— I think it was the first boy I met. And even at that age, he played sports. He was like the baseball star. He just was kind. And I just remember just being infatuated with his kindness, his kindness, his kindness, his kindness. And then after that, it really wasn't hard for me to express crushes. Because again, hey, so I hit— in middle school, I hit 5'10". Wow. And by—

that's crazy. I don't think that anyone in my high school was that tall.

Yeah, yeah. By— and then by 9th grade, I hit 6'3" and had a full beard. So yeah, so like, if I ever showed you my high school photo, like, I look like a grown-ass man.

I look like Ben Hanson.

Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, you know, I look like a Seriously.

Yeah.

So like, so I, so I was able to express my desires because people were attracted to the adult qualities in me. You know, like the, the, my classmates were like, you, you have a beard, you're tall, you know. And so like, it was easy for me. And then I also felt very comfortable telling people that I liked guys because all the girls thought I was cute.

Yeah, I was going to say, you must have been such a, like, an kind of like an untouchable gem or something, you know what I mean?

Yes, because the girls liked me and they thought I was cute and they thought it was funny that I said I like boys. They didn't take it serious, like, oh, right. Which is funny because we had Big Gay Dan that was in our class and that's what he called himself and everyone called him. And he was the only other out one and It was funny because he was— because he didn't have this sort of privilege of height.

And height is huge in school.

Yeah, it's huge. And facial hair. Yeah. When people say— when he said he's gay, it was like, fun. Oh my gosh. Like, it was a thing. And then when I said it, it was like, oh my gosh, you're being silly.

Like they didn't believe you.

Yeah, like, get the fuck out.

Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. You know what I'm saying?

Interesting.

Hey, girl.

Yeah, sure.

Funny. Yeah. So yeah, but it was, it was fun.

We have a question we ask everyone, which is, do you have any embarrassing stories, like any awkward memories or something that sort of stands out to you from middle school or high school?

Um, yeah, it's, it's awkward, but it's not really. I mean, like, I didn't really know how to shave. So the first time I tried, I shaved off one side and made a big thing and I got scared. And so I had half a beard, half not. And, you know, but I, I guess it's awkward now. I'm in hindsight, but I was such an over-talker that if someone even tried to clown me about it, I just started clowning myself. Yeah, I was like, I did it! You're gonna do this soon, you know what I mean?

Also, you're the only one with a beard in school. I mean, that's like the only one.

No matter what. No matter what. Yeah, so like no one was like saying anything, so, you know.

Yeah, I kind of like how cool you were, because you're certainly cool now, you know.

I appreciate it. That's, you know, that's As the coolest man alive.

That's part of your thing. Are you saying— did you say says the coolest man alive?

Yeah, you're cool.

Oh, all right.

Pen's going to write that in his diary. That's going to be Pen's new profile.

Don't throw him off.

Don't throw him off.

No, no, no, no, no, no. This is what you need to understand, that you have that cool, easy swag that, like, you just can, like, chill and be. And then all of a sudden, like, people will attach all their feelings and thoughts about onto you because you have it. Yeah. And so, like, that makes you automatically cool because you walk in the room and it's like, oh my gosh, he's like a musician, he's mysterious. And you probably play an instrument.

I do, but not, and not, not like, not like that. So yeah, yeah.

Karamo, have you always had this ability to kind of just like size up a person? Not in a bad way, but just like to see certain things about a person very easily? Because I mean, can you tell us what we are? Yeah, yeah, we're an accident.

No, no, but have you always been able to do that? Um, I could tell you that you're both stunning. That first thing. Um, but I think, I think, yeah. Um, and it's only because of having sisters. I had to, I had to consistently— to understand where I fit in my household, I had to consistently figure out what they were feeling without them saying it. So because I learned very early on with my sisters, I can't fill in the blanks. So I need to be observant and really observe how they acted, how they moved, what they said, so that I could truly understand, which I think is a skill that helps me now in my career.

Totally.

Being able to, like, talk to people quickly and see discomfort, see something. And it just came from them because, like, you have your sister that promises you she'll play with you when she gets home, and then she comes in and she walks right by you. You're like, is that about me? Did I do something? And then she's on the phone, so you're like, okay, so she still wants to talk to somebody, but, you know. And so it was like I had to decipher quickly, what is she feeling? What is she thinking? And I think that's a quality that I always continue to do. By the way, I'm going to show you this really quickly. I just found it. This is me in high school. This is 9th grade.

Oh my gosh.

Wow.

This is a regular high school student, my friend. Ray. Yeah.

And—

Yeah. This is grown me with—

That's crazy.

That's 9th grade.

That's 14.

This is 14.

That is crazy.

Yeah. So I'm telling you, I was like, yeah, grown man.

You honestly— I'm trying to think of all our guests, and we've had quite a few. You seem like your physicality enabled you to have I mean, it sounds to me like it gave you some really helpful protection from what could have otherwise been even more painful.

100%. I mean, 100%. You hit it on the nose. Like, I know for a fact in my house and at school, if I wasn't the height and look that I had, meaning beard— I don't know, not about like physicality, but like beard, chest hair already. If I didn't have these things, I— and being so open in 1990— I'm 43, so 1995 is when I started high school. And this is a time where we don't have representation like we have now. The conversation around LGBTQIA people is very limited. I mean, there was just— it was you either gay or lesbian, and bi was like, you know, still people didn't believe you. You know, there wasn't all these that I know for a fact being so tall, being— having full facial hair made me an authority in kids' minds without them thinking of me as an authority. Yeah. Because I looked like their older brother. I look like a college student. And so they didn't challenge me the same way they would have, like, you know, somebody else. And so I know it protected me. I know for a fact. Because I saw other people who got bullied that I would then try to protect by using, like, my body stature, who, like, today always are friends that are like— I would grab them and be like, oh, you're not going to, like, mess with my boy. And I grab them and pull them back. And everyone would leave me alone because I'm holding him now or holding. And so it was like, you're not going to mess with him because you're messing with him. Now I'm holding him. You got to mess with me. And so I know that, you know, helped me out a lot.

Yeah, it sounds like you were a really good friend.

Yeah, I actually will say I am because all of my— I don't know why my voice got high there. I guess I'm letting one of the compliments, but I will say yes because all of my friends in high school, we are still best friends to this day and we all live around the corner. And so also I'm probably one of the people in our high school Facebook group that, like, always gets hit up, even before TV. And that's only because, like I said, I was a peer counselor in high school, so I would get everyone's business. So I knew everyone's business from then and kept their secrets. So I feel like they kind of feel attached to that. Yeah.

And we'll be right back.

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At that point, what kind of— I mean, you didn't, —like, you were still young, so I'm not asking you then, but like, did you— what were your professional aspirations? Did you have any sense of like what you— what else you wanted to do?

Yeah, I wanted to be either a model, because fashion TV on VH1 was like all the thing, and every fucking music video was like— oh yeah, it was like you came home to MTV and VH1. That's true.

It was sexy. And it was—

yeah, it was sexy. You wanted to be it. I remember watching when Ashton Kutcher won won the male model of the year, like, on Fashion TV on Page One. Like, I remember that and being like, he's cool for that. I don't know. Like, I don't, I don't, you know, follow his career now. Not being shady. So sorry. Because that could sound shady. Like, I don't know. But I remember him winning that. Yeah, I wanted to be that. I wanted to be a TV host. I know that I talked to a host because I thought that was the coolest thing ever. Watching like Phil Donahue and Ricky Lake. I just was like, I want to do that. Like they're getting paid to like be in people's business again. Just nosy. Yeah. I knew I didn't want to be any of that. I knew I didn't want to be in anything where I would have to do math. I like, it was like all superficial. My mind was like, how can I like do the least amount of work and then just run my mouth? That's all I knew.

Like, you know, But it sounds like you're listening a lot. I mean, you know, you are a listener as well. Oh yeah.

Well, I used to get in trouble. My granny would like give me a little tap if I was running my mouth too much in places where she was around. And she would say, remember, Karamo, you have two of these, two ears and one mouth. So you're supposed to be doing one double time. And that still sticks with me. Like, I could be on stage helping somebody and I might want to say something and I'll —be your boy. And you'll probably come forward and smack him. Yeah, I'm like, shut up, let him keep talking. You know? And so, um, yeah.

What was your path from sort of high school to the Real World? And then I do have a couple of Real World questions because I really did watch those, those seasons faithfully and I watched yours. Yeah.

Um, the path was I went to college and college was great. And, um, where I got on Real World was that I was protesting MTV. Oh, what? Yeah, I was— there was a show that was on back in the day called Pimp My Ride.

Yeah, I remember Pimp My Ride. Yeah.

And I was in it.

Wasn't that Xzibit?

Yeah, with Xzibit. And so I had just got out of college, and so I was working at this nonprofit, and I had to run the after-school program in it. And my kids— because I moved to LA, and my kids were stealing from cars to, like, put things on, like, their cars. And so my young mind was like, this is not— like, what I know now would be like, let me talk I need to figure out where they are emotionally and mentally because they feel like they're not enough and they have to show off. And like, now my thought, but back then I was like, it's Xzibit. Yeah, we're going straight to Xzibit. Bad influence. It's MTV's fault.

You were mad son of a son of a bitch.

Yeah. It's a top-down mentality.

Yeah. And so being young, I was like, I got together like, like about 10 of the families, one of my other coworkers, we made poster boards.

This is the best story we've ever heard on the podcast. It's real.

And I went out there, my boyfriend and I, we made posters all night and we went out there to— What did they say?

What exactly? They were like, that protester is gorgeous.

We have to get him out.

Have you seen that, guys? Have you seen that protester? Well, kind of. They came out, they came outside and they were like, who's doing— who organized this? And I was like, me and my boyfriend. And they were like, hold on. Young, gay, Black, activisty, angry model.

They were like, how can we monetize this person?

How can we monetize this crazy that we're seeing in front of us? And, um, and then they were like, come back the next day. And, um, they were like, you know, you put them in the sweatshirt, you're like, yeah, they were like, come back the next day and we'll talk to you. And so I went home and I created the best 20-page PowerPoint you've ever seen with transitions. I worked on that shit all night. Like, and this is before you could just get on the internet and like grab stuff. Like, this is 2004. So like to download the images and I was like, I was like, yeah. And got there the next day ready to tell them like how to save our kids and how to help them. And they were like, actually, we want to— this is a casting for Yo World. And I threw that PowerPoint to the side. Like, never mind.

I don't know her. What kids? The chick in the hot tub.

Exactly. I don't know where those kids are today.

I don't.

I was like— and it was so funny how quickly my mind went from, like, save the kids to, like, I can be on reality TV. And they— it was a short casting because, like, I was clearly a nut. And so they took— it was, like, the shortest casting. It was 4 months, I mean, 4 weeks, and they were like, you're on the show. Wow. So 4 weeks from protesting, I was on heading to Philadelphia.

Yeah. Amazing.

I literally never thought about those children again. Wow. And the funny part is when we got on the real world, they, because they got us jobs that were with our personalities. My job was to work with kids and I was pissed. I left these kids behind. I was like, I didn't leave my real world, the real world to go on the real world and work with kids. I was like, it's over. So the entire time I was an asshole when we were building We were supposed to build them a playground, these underprivileged kids. And I was an asshole the entire time. I was like, I don't want to build a freaking playground. Like, can we get back to my house? I want to model. I want to model. I want to go out. And, but it's just so crazy how, again, like I was in this role and then like the minute, like an opportunity to drink and hang out came.

For all of our young listeners, the real world was, I think, like the first reality TV show, the first popular one.

It was definitely the first. There technically was one before called like, um, it was this family back in the like, like the, like the '70s. Oh, only reason I know this is they made an HBO— I auditioned for the role to play this kid in, uh, and he was gay. He was technically the first openly gay, uh, person. So he's taking over the family.

No, no, I was the first gay Black one. First gay Black one. Yes, yes.

So, so So this kid— but there's just like one family that predates it all. But then there was nothing like it again. And I cannot remember the name of this family, but anybody who is 60 knows this.

This isn't the Robinson Crusoe, right? This is amazing.

I didn't know about this. Yeah, I didn't know this. And they made an HBO series about this, and I'm pretty sure James Gandolfini was in it. It was— yeah. Anyway, the only reason I remember is because I really wanted that role. And that really went, you know, it was like, you know, but it's interesting because it does, it was like the seed of reality television that now kind of nobody knows about because it didn't then actually happen again until The Real World. So The Real World really was the first one that anybody knows.

This is fascinating. I've never heard about this. Now I'm like, let me look this up. I'm looking it up. Yeah.

The tagline for The Real World was, "What happens when people stop being polite and start getting real?" Was that the thing?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

And there wasn't really like a pre— like now there's like The Bachelor or The Real Housewives. There's like a theme, but this was really just 7 strangers living together.

7 strangers. It was 7 strangers put in a house to see what happens when they stop being polite and start getting real. The real world. Fuck up, yeah.

And I think now we have a sense that they're kind of scripted, but it felt like The Real World wasn't. And I'm just curious, was it a little bit scripted? How much were producers involved? How much was it just very real?

So if I can be honest with you, I don't feel like it was scripted. Well, from my experience, it wasn't scripted. And the reason I say that is because, okay, maybe it was scripted in the sense of like the scenarios they put us in. So they knew like, we're going to bring them to a bar. We know we're going to do this. But it was, I mean, like, they just were good at putting personalities in the house that they knew would clash. Like, they put you against somebody who they knew would, like, trigger you. And to this day, when people ask me for advice on how to get into reality television and they have all these things, I'm always like, you need to go in there and tell these people 3 people or 3 things that trigger you. Like, what are the things that upset you? Because when they're casting, they're casting you against someone. So if you're going in there talking about how amazing I am and all these things, you're not getting past round 1. But if they can start to build a scene of being like, okay, well, he said that his mother was an alcoholic and he hates alcoholics, and we're going to put him with this woman who's an alcoholic. That's what it is. And so I'm like, the more— and this is to this day, if somebody wants a tip on getting cast on reality television, here it is. Go with your top 3 things that are going to trigger you and push those, because those are things that are going to cast you against with someone else.

Go in with all your problems.

That's all your problems, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Okay, so I found out, um, it's such an iconic name too. Lance Loud. Has anybody ever heard of— so no, and it's the Loud family. They were— there was their surname, and it was in 1973, uh, and it was a PBS series called An American Family. This is very interesting because I've literally never before or after ever heard anyone mention this family. It was a series. It was like, I think it got nominated for a few Emmys or whatever. So it is, it's thing. But very interesting. It's sort of like this kid, I mean, it was a big cultural moment. He's sort of like your quiet predecessor. A lot of people don't talk about Lance Loud.

I mean, that's pretty amazing because in the '70s to be openly gay on a reality program on PBS when PBS in the '70s was like an NBC station. Right. Wow. No, I know.

So it is interesting that it— but then again, like, nothing really ever— there was not even another reality show that I can think of until The Real World. I'm pretty sure there wasn't another one. And by the way, this was a documentary series. So back then, I think they didn't even— yeah, it wasn't even like you would think of it as television.

It was really its own, different from a reality show. Kind of. It's a docuseries. Wow.

And this guy Lance Loud was really an interesting icon. I, you know, that was— until I played Jeff Buckley, that was, uh, probably the role I can remember as a teenager, as a teen and like young adult, wanting the most.

Didn't get it. What was it like for you when you left? Because, you know, now reality TV is really established, but I, I'm trying to think, like, how would people have treated you? Like kind of a celebrity, but it's also something that that the audience isn't used to, like a famous person who's famous for being themselves. So I'm just curious, like, how did that change your relationships with people in the public? How did it change your view on yourself? Like, how did you process all of that?

Oh my gosh, it was the worst thing ever. I hated coming off the Real World. Um, the day that they told us we were going home, I mean, um, I cried. And I, in hindsight, I wasn't crying because of my castmates. I was crying because I realized that something was about to change. Because you start to get the sense of it when you're walking around a city and people see you with the cameras and how rude people were. And so I knew something negative was coming. My intuition knew something bad was coming, and it came like a storm. Because to be 23 and have the world only tell you who you are is the worst moments that were edited. [Speaker:KARAMO] Yeah, that's huge. Forever was depressing. It just made me sad. No matter what you did, you were only that moment. Did you feel used? I felt betrayed. I didn't feel used. Yeah, I felt betrayed. I felt betrayed because the adults that were there, I felt like they should have told me what was about to happen. I mean, I was on season 15, so you had 15 seasons to warn me that, like, this is going to be a shit show. Like, you're going to have people tell you how bad you are. They're going to comment on you. I mean, like, I remember my castmate, she had an eating disorder. And it was like the minute we got off the show, people would tell her about her weight consistently in order to trigger her. Oh my gosh. And it was because it was, like, other college kids. So they thought it was funny, and they didn't know whatever. It just was— we would do these, like, MTV bar crawls where people would get us drunk to then try to fight us. And they would start being negative to us to, like, get us to be— to fight. It was like they would build you up to tell you how much they loved you just to get you drunk enough to fight you. And that was with everyone. Yeah. So I became completely depressed and suicidal after The Real World because I didn't know how to handle it. It, it destroyed my relationships with my family who were embarrassed that I had told all of our business on television or my business, but they thought it was their business. Yeah. Yeah. It was dark. I still think to this day there's not enough support for reality stars when they come off of shows. I think, you know, we make it seem like, oh, you're going to be famous, but like, no one's letting them know. Like, just know that even though your show was 5 years ago, in 5 years, we're only going to remember when you did not when you did blank, and you're going to be defined by that. And unless you're on a show like a Housewives where you get to have season after season, which is rare for most reality stars, you are their worst moment. And I don't think people understand that there's also no money in it unless you're on a consistent show. So I got off that show and I was broke as hell. So I just quit my job. Yeah, I just quit my job and I'm broke now and I'm too I'm too known because I don't like the word famous. I was too known to get like a job at a Walgreens or CVS or even like I tried to go back to the nonprofit I was working for and they wouldn't let me because I was too much of a distraction. And so I would try to go like I went to a CVS, I remember, which is like a for anybody, you know, like I think CVS are nationwide. Yeah, they're nationwide. They didn't use to be nationwide though.

You're right. Right. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. They didn't use the word sex. And so I tried to, and it was too much of a thing. People would come in and they'd be like, you're the guy from The Real World. And it became like a thing where college kids would come in just to see me. So they were like, you got to— you can't work here. Yeah. And so— but then I couldn't make any money unless I went to bars to drink, which then turned into an addiction for me. Wow. Because I hated liquor. So I would try to do a lot of cocaine to counter the liquor taste. Wow. And the first time I got into it, like, it was just a snowball.

That's crazy. No one said it.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think— I still to this day don't think that people talk about the experience of reality television honestly. And yeah, yeah, I think that more people should talk about that. It is— it can be a great experience that will give you a leg into so many opportunities. But I would say for 90% of people, You are— your self-esteem is affected, your mental health is affected, you are not making any money, you are in weird limbo with friends and family, and, um, there's not enough support from production, from networks, from anyone when it comes to supporting these reality stars. Yeah, I mean, a lot of—

from what I've heard, like little snippets I've heard of different people on different reality shows, it sounds like production is sort of the source. Like, they— that you have, like, producers on a lot of shows who are orchestrating these situations to create, like, really flammable scenarios and, and then editing in a particular way.

I'm gonna have a little different thing. I don't actually blame production because at this point in our, our culture, you know that you're coming on there for them to do that. What for me is, is I think it would take— like, I'm producing. I'm now just— I just sold my first, you know, of my two— I just sold two non-scripted shows that we're in development for. We're about to do. Congratulations. That's amazing. Thanks. You know, hopefully they make it all the way to television. I don't know if y'all know about this process, but it's a long-ass process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm putting into my reality shows that on the last day, the contestants would have to stay another week. Week to be prepped for mentally and emotionally for what's going to come next. And that's only because I've been through it. So I think it would be as easy for just a production or a network just to do that. Just add on a week of budget where you keep the same people in the same house and say, hey, before you all go, these are the things that are going to happen. You don't have to make it a week, 2 days. Let's give you support. Let's give you resources. Let's give you numbers to call. So when your self-esteem drops, when this happens, how to manage your social media, meaning not to, like, get fame and followers, but how to manage the tons of comments you're going to get and people telling you about yourself. Like, it's just an easy process that could be solved. And then, like, maybe we wouldn't have people walking away and becoming disasters because of reality television.

What was your experience like getting cast on Queer Eye?

Um, also weird. So I was working fully in social services now. I had been off of television because after The Real World, I stopped. So you're protesting Netflix. Yeah, I know. I was protesting Netflix.

Wait, can you actually just tell us a little bit about how you did legitimately get involved in social services and then kind of, you know, because that's interesting.

Oh yeah. So I mean, that's what I went to school for. I went to school for social work. And so. Okay. Okay. So that's why I was always in the nonprofit scene. And then once, like, the real world was fully done, I kind of got myself sober. I found help. I— it's like now I— and then I also found out I was a father at that point. I went back to becoming, you know, just working a real job. And so, quick thing, the way I found out I was a father is that the only girl I ever slept with, who was my best friend in high school, she had a boyfriend. She wanted to lose her virginity. She was going to lose her virginity to him, but she was scared that she was going to suck. So she asked if she could lose it to me because I was her best friend.

This is crazy.

Yeah. What are the numbers on that? What are the numbers on that?

You could be 1 to 1.

I mean, I was like, sure. Yeah. Oh, that's a practice. Yeah. And so, I mean, it lasted literally— she jokes about it now because we're so close— for 10 seconds, 15. And I was like, stop. No, thank you. I would never like to do that again. Never again. And she moved away. And because we were, you know, like, and this is like, there was no ad. There was not social media.

Wait, can I, can I just ask? So hang on, hang on. Did she— didn't— don't you think she just really wanted to sleep with you though?

Yeah, that does sound like a 15-year-old.

We've talked about it now. In her mind, she was really trying. She really meant it because she had a boyfriend and she didn't see me as cheating because I was gay.

I can honestly, having been a 15-year-old, I can totally—

I get it. Yeah, like, it's We sat up at nighttime talking about boys. So, like, she didn't see me as a boy who was going to date her. She just— I was safe for her. And she felt like, if we're going to practice, like, I know you won't take advantage or do something weird. And we also didn't really— I guess, and I guess we never talked about it, but I was like, we also didn't really talk about, like, will this, you know, your— will my thing work? Yeah. You know, like, we just assumed, yeah. And I was 15, so, like, a breeze turned me on, you know, like, you don't even need that really, frankly, at 15. Yeah. So, you know, and so it happened, but she moved away. I stayed at the same place. And because, you know, there was no social media, we didn't have cell phones in the way that we have access to them now. Yeah. I just never thought of her again. And then after I got off The Real World and, and like 2 years after The Real World, I got a stack of papers for back child support for a child I didn't know existed. Oh my gosh. She wasn't planning on telling me. She had applied for benefits for her other children, and the state found me and, like, garnished my checks. And that was how I found out I had a father from my best girlfriend in high school.

Is that how you got in touch, back in touch?

Yeah, I went back to Texas, to Houston, Texas, and they gave me her— it was like, really, I literally, I went there to the DNA thing with them. They wouldn't give me any information. And then once it was confirmed, she still didn't even know that I was there. I was doing this because they didn't let her know. They passed a piece of paper over the desk and was like, you are the father, here's your address. And I literally took it and then showed up at her door and knocked on it. Wow. And she opened it. And we just immediately, when I saw her, I was kind of angry before, but then when I saw her, we were just 15-year-olds again. And we just fell in each other's arms and started, and we started talking and crying. And then she was like, he's at school now if you want to come back later and meet him. I'm sorry. Oh my gosh. Because I didn't have a concept that he wouldn't be home because I don't have kids. And so it's 12:00 in the afternoon. I'm like, where's he at? He's like, school, where kids are.

So he was 11 or 10? That's also crazy that you were 26 and you had a 9-year-old. Like, 9-year-old.

Yeah. And so, and then we met that night. I took him bowling. This is a funny story. If I tell you this really quick. I took him bowling because that's what you did on Full House or on Family Matters.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what you do.

You meet somebody, you take them bowling. Like, that's what dads do. So I took him bowling, and I picked him up that night. He was so— I was scared. He was scared. We went to the bowling alley, and the bowling alley was next to Rice University. And so I walk in, and I didn't know it was next to Rice University. We're bowling. I have the photo of it. I'm like in a— I borrow my cousin's sweater vest. He's a dad. Like, it was like— Yeah. I borrowed— He played a dad. Yeah, I borrowed— I got a phone thing so that I could have like the cord so I could look more dad-ish. I wore like these like church shoes with my jeans because I didn't want to look like a— I wanted him to think like I'm a dad.

Yeah. And hold on, what's the phone— like, you sound more like Secret Service with the— what do you mean the phone thing?

No, you remember, like, before pods, there was like the black cord that went to like— Right. Okay. Yeah. And so it dangled and it connected down. I don't know. It was very CIA. But you're right, though.

The earpieces used to be like— it seemed like only men did that.

Yeah. Only men. Yeah. And so more dads did that. Yeah. Yeah. So we went to the bowling alley. I'll be quick. And so we walk in. We love this story. And then, like, within 10 minutes, I hear, oh, shit, is that Karamo from The Real World?

And I turn. Oh, no.

And there's a bunch of high school— I mean, a bunch of college kids there. And they're like, Karamo. They're like, yo, come over here. Now, I'd been doing bar crawls for the past 2 years. So I went right back into same thing like I did when I got on Real World. I was like, fuck the kid. And, like, it's been a pattern in my life. I'm really responsible and a great dad. But I literally was like, I was like, hold on a second. And I went over there and I started taking shots and partying with these college kids. Oh my gosh. And in your sweater vest. And literally the only reason I stopped is because I heard, we're looking for someone missing their child. And they were doing it over the thing. And I was like, I was like, somebody's missing their child. Oh, I'm missing my child. And I was like, shit. And I ran back and my kid Jason was behind the, where the the guy was polishing the shoes and stuff and, you know, whatever, was behind there because, like, because I just abandoned him for an hour and a half taking shots. And that was what turned me into a good dad because I said I'll never do that again. It will always be my priority. And I made it my priority. 6 weeks later, I asked for full custody because she wasn't doing well financially and I had my family doing better. Um, she supported me in getting it. I got full custody. Wow. I adopted his little mother. They have the same mother, two different fathers.

This is an amazing story. This doesn't—

this gets better and better and better. Yeah. And so by 27, I became a father of two overnight. And now they're 27 and 23, and I've had full custody since they were 10 and 7.

And, um, just looking at your face, I cannot believe you have a 27-year-old.

I mean, you were young when you had him, but still, it's wild.

It's wild. It's wild. Um, but yeah, so that was me becoming a dad. And there was a question that came after this?

Just your path to Queer Eye.

It was— Oh yeah, the path to Queer Eye.

Definitely. But this is such an amazing story. So I was doing social services. I was working and I wanted to get back in TV. Now the kids are in high school and I'm, I'm like, let's go after my dream, figure out how to really do this TV thing. So I was taking hosting classes at the community college and I was in bed with my partner watching Watch What Happens Live and Carson Kressley, who was on the original Queer Eye, was on. And Andy said, will there ever be a reboot? And he said, yeah, they're doing it right now. And they're— but they're not bringing back any of the other 5. They're getting 5 new guys. And they started listing off like Ariana Grande's brother and stuff like that. You know, people that they thought in pop culture were going to be on it. And I woke my boyfriend up at 11 o'clock at night and I was like, we got to get on this new Queer Eye. And he was like, you don't cook. You don't— your fashion is shit. He was like, you can't— you're bald. What are you going to do? You don't know how to do hair. And I was like, I was like, I don't know, but I got to get on it. And so I called the agent that I had just gotten. I was like, can you try to get me in? He called me back that same day and was like, they've already done the casting. They've been doing it for a year. They're in their final phase. Oh my gosh. I begged him for a week to get me in. He called his friend Gretchen, who he had known since they were PAs. She was part of the head of casting. And she was like, I'll give him a Zoom for— for, like, 10 minutes just so we can see if other projects— but it probably won't be Queer Eye. They asked the category, and he was like, well, what category? And I was like, I don't know. And so he was like— he literally, on the phone, was like, let's just tell them culture. And I was like, sure. And so I got on this call, and she was like, so what do you bring to the show? And I just started ranting about, like, y'all never get— because I watched a couple of episodes of the original, and I I was like, y'all never get deep into their mental health. Like, you got to talk about their mental health. Like, if you can't talk about, like, what they went through— I was like, you know, when I'm in my job, like, I have to get to the core of, like, why did you do this? Because if you don't get to that, then— And she just was enamored. And so she was like, I'm going to bring you into the final casting. And so she brought me into the top 40 with the rest of them. And then I walked in with the other culture guys, and they were all, like, playwrights and poets and dancers because it was, like, like, yeah, culture was supposed to be arts. And then I was in there talking about mental health, and I knocked those bitches out one by one. I was like, sorry to your mental health, I'm taking this shit. And the only reason I think I stood out was because they all were saying the same things. They were like, you know, I would take someone, tix balls into this gallery, and I was coming in and I was like, So what's the backstory? Like, you know, and these are fictitious people we were doing this chemistry test. And I was like, well, what is it? And they made the cast nurse. They were like, well, I guess he has 2 kids. And I was like, is he a good father? Is he happy? And so I started asking these questions. They were like, oh, we're going deeper here. And, um, got the job and changed my life.

I feel like every story you've told is like a once in a lifetime, but like, that's your whole life. Yeah, that is my life, God, honestly.

It's crazy. There's somebody up there that is writing this shit that is like having the best laugh. I already know. I'm gonna get to heaven and they're gonna be like, I was the orchestrator of your life. I want the Karamo storyline. That's my guy. Yeah, he's gonna be like, so you didn't know when I was on Earth, I was a comedic writer. And so I just wrote your shit like— He's like, I'm doing bar curls up here, man.

I'm doing bar curls up here just writing all the crazy shit that comes to my mind.

Exactly. That's seriously, I'm like, it has to be, you know?

That's amazing. Stick around, we'll be right back. Only 18 states require sex ed to be medically accurate, and relationship classes— let's fix that. I'm Shan, an AASECT-certified sex educator with a master's in psych, and on my podcast Lovers by Shan, we make learning about love as mind-blowing as making it. Celebrities and fascinating people share intimate story, then we uncover the lesson for all of us. Watch Lovers by Shan from Lemonada Media on YouTube, or listen wherever you like your podcasts.

Karamo, so as we've established, you've been doing this your entire life. You've been listening to people, having them open up to you, and talking them through their stuff. And I wonder, in all of this, have you found there are certain things that help a person to go there with you, to open up? Obviously Obviously, I think, yeah, the obvious one is to share your own experiences and to get vulnerable yourself. But is there anything else that helps someone?

Yeah, I would tell people the thing that if they have someone in their life that they're wanting to open up, I would tell them to shut up because I realize— That's so not what I said. Really? Sure, Sophie. But like, for me, the reason that I think we've opened up, but to make it for others is like, when I get quiet, people start to fill in the blanks for me. And so I do it on Queer all the time. I'm like, so why do you think you're feeling this way? And I just start nodding my head and like, it's going to be okay. And they just start to open up. And it's happened with even the most closed-off people. And because I think most people are uncomfortable with silence, where because as a child I had to be silent in my household, old, I'm not uncomfortable with silence. And so I was like, I don't mind being quiet until you open up. And a lot of people was like, if someone doesn't start talking, you're like, but what are you feeling? Talk to me. Like, was this about this? They start to like get anxious and have to like— and I'll just sit there and be quiet. And I think that is a tool that I realize if more couples could engage in with a partner who might be feeling, it's like give time, people the time to process, to speak at their own pace, and they will eventually open up. Because the more that they see that you're patient with waiting with them, the more that they can feel like, oh, this is not something that is a check off your list. I can feel secure with you. And so I think that's one of the biggest tools that I use to get people to open up. I also let people know immediately that I won't judge, and I make sure my body language shows them I won't judge, first of all. So, like, I'm leaned in, I'm doing affirming nods. These are just tips that, like, anybody wants to use with their kids or anybody, like, you can, like, lean in when you're talking, affirm with nods. Don't be closed like this when you're talking. Be open with your arms, be open with your legs, you know? Yeah. Overly smiling actually makes more people uncomfortable. So yeah, all these little small things. I know that you're asking. Hopefully you can use them in your own life.

No, well, actually, I was about to say, I feel like I was meant to hear this because I'm supposed to have a conversation with someone tomorrow that I've been excited about and dreading and feeling like this person just needs to open up. I've opened up a lot and it's their turn. I'm like, how do I help them open up? And I feel like I was meant to hear this because I would not shut up. So I'm like, okay, I'm going to shut up. I'm going to listen and then I'm going to shut up.

Remember Karamo's nana just knocking you just on the side of the head. One mouth, two ears.

Listen more. That is great. I have a question about sort of men, I guess, in sort of— like, in the show, I've noticed that when the hero is a man, I feel like there's just a different thing. Like, they melt around you in the sense of, like, I feel like there's something frozen in them that actually starts to thaw, and we see it on camera. It's really true. It is really moving. There was a particular episode where you where you like gathered these college, these college boys in a frat house. Oh yeah. And it was like, for the viewer, it seemed like a simple check-in, like just ask each other how you're doing. And the boys were so moved, and it was like they had never checked in with each other. It's like, what is going on with men? Was one of my thoughts. But it was also very, very moving. But my question is like, what do you think is happening to men in our culture? I don't know exactly how to word it, but do you understand what I'm asking, or is it too unclear?

No, no, I'm with you. Yeah.

Why are they frozen and how can they—

I think for me it's Because most men get mixed messages when it comes to masculinity. So it's like they're told— and it's not just by women, they're told by other men, they're told by society— that we need you to be strong all the time, and we need you to, like, stand up and be the silent strong type. But then I also need you to be vulnerable and open But then if you're vulnerable and open at a time when I don't want it, you're now sassy and like weird. And so it's like a very— where I think most women get the message, your vulnerability, except for in corporate America. So I don't want to generalize because, you know, but in most settings, like, it's like your vulnerability is applauded. It's like, thank you for being nurturing. Thank you for being open with your feelings. Things, um, where men, they're told different things. That's very true in the household, um, that it's like, okay, I'm gonna be vulnerable today, but then if you don't want the vulnerability today, it's like, oh, you know, you're giving me too much. And it's like, so am I supposed to be that way, or am I supposed to be this way? And I think for me, with the men on my show, I tell them, there's no option. I don't want strong right now. I only want this. And I do it more of a direct command to them. And again, to create a parallel, I think because of my stature—

I was going to say your physicality has a huge part in that. Because if you were asking that, they're like, okay, this looks like a strong man. Exactly.

I can't know if he's telling me I'm the baddest. Even with those boys around there. They hadn't cried the entire show. They didn't have any emotion. And it was supposed to just be a check-in. And I was like, my team, we were all— the show actually only wanted to do 2 of them. And I was like, no, let's bring the whole of them. And they were like, what? And I was like, I did group sessions all the time. Like, I can handle up to 12. And they were like, what? And I was like, trust me. And when I got— and we sat down, I said to them, so you're going to open up today because I'm going to open up. To open up. And opening up is so special and so amazing. And I did it in such an affirming, strong way using my physicality that they're now like, okay, he's saying that this is what we have to do. This is the assignment. This is— there's— we don't get to be closed off. And so now I've said that directly, and now I go into, now I'm ready to listen. So tell me, have you all checked in? What are you feeling? And Now they've already gotten the command that vulnerability is the only option, combined with me listening. And then we get a group of young men bawling their eyes out.

The truth is, you know, that's beautiful, by the way. And I really like—

I really admire how no one's ever asked me these little secrets and tools, but sorry. No, but I mean, it's, uh, it—

I, I think probably all three of us are admiring the through lines of your life. So it's really cool to hear. But I'm also just thinking that— and I've thought about this kind of throughout my whole life, but it's really relevant in this moment. The truth is, with men who sit and drink at bars, it's a shortcut to feeling something. And I feel like men are actually desperate to hug each other, hold each other, tell you, like, I love you, man. I love you. That's actually real. It was so clear to me growing up that my male friends, my boyfriends, the men I'd be growing up alongside, they just wanted to get wasted so they could be vulnerable, actually.

I mean, it really is that. Agreed. Agreed. Because the liquor gave them permission and gave them something to hide mind. Yeah. And, um, and, and that's what I know all the time. Like, a lot of these addictions that I see come from the fact that people want to express feelings and they can't. Um, and so they can't express what happened in the past, they can't express what they're feeling now, and they can't express what they're hoping for in the future. Like you said, Pen, they want to just say, yo, bro, I love you. And, um, literally, I remember in high school, I was the only one that my teammates— my teammates would say, yo, I love you, because I would say it took it. I would say to them all the time, um, and because again my stature, I would hug people all the time and I would grab them, give them these big bear hugs. And, um, and I never had anyone fight against it because they would fall into my arms. Even today, men fall into my arms when I give them hugs because I'm big enough and I can hold on. And I think that, I think that we just have to remember, like, just look at the messages we're giving any human being. But particularly in this conversation, look at the message we're giving men. And if you want men to be their authentic self, just remember, like, you can't switch up on them in a week if they— if you don't like it now. Or like, liking a video where a guy is now sassy just says to a boy on TikTok that I can't be sassy because now it's going to be a joke. Or, you know, like, even that word sassy now that's come up on TikTok a lot is is like derogatory because a straight man being vulnerable shouldn't be seen sassy. And I've seen like the whole thing now where like if they're doing a dance challenge, it's like, when your boyfriend's sassy. And it's like, why is him enjoying a TikTok dance sassy? Why can't it just be a human being dancing? And I think we got to watch those messages we give. And until we do, we're going to see men always be in this sort of convoluted state of, should I be vulnerable? Do I have to be strong?

It's really helpful. It's really profound. I just want you to know, I was so affected by that. I mean, huge fan of Queer Eye, watch every episode, but was really affected by that one. And I don't know if Penn remembers, I texted him. Penn and I have a production company together. And I was like, "You need to watch this episode. And we need to find a way to create spaces like this for men to just check in with each other." We haven't, but— Sign me up.

I'm down to help. Listen, I don't know.

Yeah, this needs to happen. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about your talk show. First of all, congratulations. Your numbers are growing, growing. You had your best week recently. We're so excited for you. Um, what, I mean, I think we have a sense of what inspired you to do it. You've been wanting to do it. It sounds like your whole life. How does it feel now that you're doing it?

It feels freaking amazing.

I mean, like, what was the moment that you finally thought, I'm going to just kind of directly do the anything, as opposed to finding ways to do it on a— you know what I mean? Like, find— like, I'm just gonna—

oh yeah, well, I wish I could say that I had a hand in it, but like, you know, it's when execs make their choice. And so we just— someone— I wrote in— I wrote a memoir, and I wrote in the book how much I love helping people, and it was always my dream that maybe I could have a daytime talk show one day. Yeah. And the head of NBC, president of NBC, saw— got book and read it and called me in and was like, yeah, let's give you a shot. Wow. Yeah, we can do this. And so I wish I was like, you know, there was a plan and I executed like other things. It just kind of, it kind of like came because I put it in the universe. Like, I wasn't afraid to talk about what I wanted. And that's something I tell people all the time as well. Like, talk about what you want. Like, yeah, people will try to make you feel like you're arrogant or like you're being braggadocious. Is just like, claim it out loud. Like, if you want that car, say over and over again, I want that car. I want this life. I want this. Because the more you keep in your head, people who could help you in finding that, like, if you want a particular type of person, say it, because there could be someone who could hear it and be like, that is my friend. Let me connect you two. And now you're married, you know? And so me saying it out loud, they found it and they were like, we'll test you. So they tested me like on Mori. They tested me on Ellen. And they realized I work better with real people, not celebrities. And they were like, we'll give you a conflict daytime show because that's what they call it, conflict television, where it's real people. And I hated that. And I told them season 1, I was like, my show's not going to be conflict. There can be real emotions where people talk about what they're really going through, but I'm not going to have people fighting just to fight. And I said, there's going to be a lot of holding hands. There's going to be a lot of tears. And they're like, well, there's real had a lot of tears in daytime conflict.

And I was like, not yet.

I was like, not yet. And, um, and it's resonating. It's going great. And it keeps getting bigger and bigger. And, um, and I'm just really, really just proud of it. I mean, I'm like extremely proud of it.

This has been so lovely. We have a final question. Panel, you ask it.

Yeah. If you could go back to your 12-year-old self, what would you say?

What would you do? I'd say keep being nosy. Actually, you know what I would say to him? Actually, I'm going to say this. Now I'm going to be a little cliché. I would say to him, keep talking and keep growing, which is what I am. Because I mean, like, I would literally go back to him and tell him, don't stop running your mouth. I like, keep running your mouth. I'd probably tell him to run his mouth more. I would tell him to run his mouth more because when I run my mouth is when I have the best connections and best moments. I think everyone should start running their mouth more. Like, you know, and don't be afraid to keep growing. Like my saying that I have, my quote is, never be afraid of growing slowly, only of standing still. And I say that to myself all the time. So I'm constantly like, as long as I'm not standing still, So as long as I'm doing one step to be a little bit better, then life's okay. And so I'd go back to him and say, just keep on, keep running your mouth. Yeah. I'd probably also tell him to tell— I can't say this guy's name because I know him, but I would probably tell him to tell my teammate on varsity that I was in love with him because I still to this day think he's a homo. And so because he's 43 and doesn't have a wife or kids, and I'm like, maybe we could have been in love right now. So I would tell him also to tell tell him, hey, you know, you're hot.

All the great tips.

This is so enjoyable, really. So many good stories from you. Oh my gosh, you can watch Karamo Brown on 8 seasons of Queer Eye on Netflix. You can watch his talk show Karamo on The CW, and you can keep up with him online at Karamo. We are so excited that you can now listen to Podcrushed ad-free on Amazon Music. In fact, you can listen to any episode of Podcrushed ad-free right now on Amazon Music with an Amazon Prime membership.

Welcome. And it's like nice, it feels like I'm commanding a room or a space of some kind, maybe like a hall. Imagine than that. And, and, and Sophia never just sitting there like little children from a wizard school, just like looking up, no eyes.

Yes, what is he going to say now?

What is happening right now?

Uh, good things. This is how we bring them in, okay? This is why I introduce and close and you do everything else in between.

Story Pirates is the number one podcast for kids and families in the world and the newest new addition to the Lemonada Media Network. We take stories written by real kids and turn them into sketch comedy and songs featuring professional actors, famous guests, and original music. So get ready to light up your kids' imaginations with a show that you'll also enjoy. The Story Pirates Podcast, new season coming November 6th.