Karamo Brown

I think there's critical moments that define us, and this was one that defined me, and I was thankful that I made the right decision. Even though it was based on the fact of me not wanting to give my kids the childhood I had, it still was a decision that was best and helped me grow and help them grow.

Welcome back to Ideas of Order, a California Closets podcast dedicated to answering the question, What does home mean to you? I'll be connecting with friends and creators to talk about the memories and practices that mean the most to us and the spaces that have held us through it all. I'm Jeremiah Brent, and today I am so excited and thrilled to introduce someone who has profoundly impacted my life this year through both friendship and a few months of filming. He is undoubtedly the life of the party, an advocate for those who need it most, an incredible host, an all-around inspiring individual. Please welcome my dear friend, Karamo Brown. Karamo, I miss you. I miss you too.

What number am I of the guys that's doing this? Am I 1, 2, 3, or 4?

Don't start with me. Where am I? You're just number— you're number 2.

Good, good. Who's number 1?

Tan. Not this season. It was a different season. First season.

That bitch, how dare he get on another season?

Well, I've known her for a long time.

You have, you have.

I just love hearing about it. Um, it's so weird to go from seeing you guys every day to not seeing you at all.

Yeah, it was, it was actually a jolt for me, to be very honest. I was, um, it, it, it's since season 2 I haven't had that feeling where I was like just extremely missing you guys. This is like the first season since then, and it was like really like kind kind of hurt.

Yeah, we had a good time.

We did have a good time.

I had a lot of fun. Before we get into this, I just want to articulate to anybody listening who doesn't already know this about Karamo, but he, you were hands down like one of the warmest people and the most welcoming and the most nurturing from the second we started. And I know it wasn't an easy sell, but the second we met from that moment on, you always, I remember the first day you looked at me, you always made me feel safe. You were really, really sweet. And I just— I've said this to you before, but I'm just really grateful. You were really amazing through the whole experience.

I love you, Jeremiah. I'm glad you felt that way because you're an extremely lovable person on top of being extremely talented and on top of being extremely stunning. So it makes it a little bit easy to be just kind of nice, you know?

You guys nourished me and then you corrupted me. So it was perfect.

Who did the most corrupting?

You for sure. But it was an education for me and I learned a lot and I'm a quick learner, it turns out.

Well, I want to make sure, as long as you said I was the one that did the most corrupting, I'm happy about that.

No, we had fun. I was really fascinated when I kind of dug in and started to like read about you and your background and where you're from. I had no idea, Karamo, that you were first generation son of Jamaican and Cuban immigrants. Yeah.

You didn't know that at all?

I did not know that. And so it made me start to think, like, what was growing up like for you then as a first generation?

It was chaotic. We were poor. You know, we talked about this, Jeremiah, while we were shooting. We both grew up extremely poor. There was no money. But then there was this added layer of cultural differences. That made me even feel more alienated being outside. So for instance, I always tell people, like, when I would have school lunch packed for me, I didn't have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I would have curry goat and rice that would have to warm up in a microwave because that was what we ate the night before, and that's what would be served for lunch the next day. And that alone right there in itself, coming to school and people being like, "Ew, gross, what are you eating?" alienated me. Then my name was different, so it alienated me. I mean, and then I was very aware of my sexuality very early on. And I started— yeah, I started letting people in at the age of 15, which then divided me from my family because of those Caribbean roots that were homophobic.

Did you grow up in the same house? Like, your whole adolescence, were you in the same house?

Oh no, we moved. Every fucking year because my father couldn't make the rent. We would move out. I would come home and then I would know we were moving because there'd be boxes. And then that night we would move out of whatever apartment or home we were renting. It wasn't until my parents got divorced that my mother got a place and stayed in the same place because she was stable.

Was home ever like a safe place for you or was it always just kind of temporary?

Home didn't become a safe place until I met you, Jeremiah.

Don't you forget it.

I will not. No, I don't. I mean, I mean, I guess it was safe. It was safe because I had older sisters who protected me. Yeah. And a mom who protected me. Like, my father beat my mother up, uh, and I, I don't— I, I say that like that and don't say amused because I want you to understand how extreme it was, right? Um, but one of the things that they always did is they always hid me because I was a baby, so The minute that he would come home drunk or start to hit her, the first thing everyone would do is grab Karamo and put him in a room.

Right.

And so I heard everything but didn't see anything. So that was sort of the theme of my childhood is I saw everything— I heard everything, but they shielded me.

Wow.

I knew the family hated me because of my sexuality, but my mother would make sure that I didn't go around those family members. So I heard them talking about me. And I would hear them in the other room saying I was a faggot and I should die. But they didn't say it to my face. I would hear my father beating up my mom, but I didn't get to witness it. I saw the bruises after. And so that just leaves marks on you and scars on you for the rest of your life. But it's what made me want to help people. And that's like the real thing.

Was this all happening in Houston?

Yes, all of it. My parents got divorced when I was 15. And then that's when my father, me being the youngest, he said, um, you're not gonna raise my boy into a more of a sissy. So he forced my mom to move me to Florida with him so that I could be in the house with him.

Wow.

Don't you just love when the abusive parent advocates for you?

It's so heartbreaking. And it's so interesting to me, obviously, you're the complete opposite of what you grew up in, which I think we've also discussed before, because it was a very similar situation. But I always wonder, like, you know, and especially now just knowing you as an adult and knowing what your home means to you and how important that space is, you know, what, when you were growing up in this environment, aside from the pain, were there other things in that house, in that chapter of your life, like growing up with your 3 sisters that you remember, like what was the beauty? With them? Did they protect you? Were you super close with them? Because I've met your mother. She is fantastic.

I was super close to my sisters. I was super close. We're still super close. I have the best bond with them. We see each other. We talk all the time. We're together all the time.

Right.

Um, but I mean, to be very honest with you, my, my childhood was very isolated because since I was the only boy, I had my own room. That was my father's thing. I couldn't be in the room with the girls. So I was always in the room by myself, just always by myself. And I say that to say that's why as an adult, I fill my life with so many people. And I, like, am constantly the life of the party and always plan the party because I don't want to— I don't like being in my house alone.

Well, you don't want to hear it. You want to see it and hear it now, which I think is so interesting.

I want to see it and hear it. Ooh, Jeremiah, you better— And this is what y'all gonna look forward to on next season of Quickfire because no one has ever done that. I swear to God, I'm not joking. No one's ever put that connection together. So good job, brother.

Well, I'm always kind of looking for the interconnected tissue between like where we started and kind of where we go and what we relate to and what we need now versus what we didn't get. You know, and I wonder, having had such a painful childhood, do you remember the first space that you were ever in that you really loved? Doesn't have to be your house, but it could be like the first place you ever walked into and like felt intrinsically connected to.

Yeah, it is the apartment that I first got when I moved to Los Angeles. That was the first space that I felt so connected to. It felt home. It felt safe. I remember this is the early 2000s and neo soul was a big thing in the Black community, and every neo-soul video had, like, balconies that opened with white drapes that were always blowing in the wind. I purposefully put in this 2-bedroom apartment white drapes, and everything was the same color wood, and I just made it feel like one of those music videos. And I— Freaking loved that apartment. I felt safe in there. I felt grown in there. I felt alive in there. And it's so funny because I had moved to California. I've never told this story outside of my best friend. I moved to California and I was living in a hotel because I was working there. And one of my fraternity brothers had gotten me a job there and he said, well, you can live here for 2 weeks for free. And I didn't know where to go. And prior to moving here, I had one friend that lived here. And he died. And I had been at his house— I had been at his house maybe a couple months before and didn't know how to get back there or whatever. And on, like, the day before I had to move out of this hotel, I said, I got to find an apartment. I got in the car and I started driving and I ended up in front of his house, not knowing how to get there. And it was the most— I'm getting chills right now because every time I think about it, I end up in front of his house. And then I sat in front of his house and I was like, why did you bring me here? And you've been around me. I'm not some person who is—

No gimmicks. Yeah.

Yeah. But in that moment, I was like, what did you bring me here for? What am I here? What are you trying to guide me? And I turned out, made a right turn, and just— I felt him guiding me, saying, make a right turn, and literally drove 4 minutes down the street. and there was a woman outside putting down a sign for an apartment. I did a U-turn and she said to me, I said to her, hey, I'm renting. And I was like, but I don't have any credit, but I can pay 2 months rent or something. And this woman who still manages this building gave me an apartment out of the blue, which became my safe zone and ironically became the safe zone for almost all of my friends that moved here because everyone moved into that apartment and lived in that apartment at some point. And I think about how that moment of me being guided there allowed me to feel safe and then created a home and safety for almost all of my friends.

Yeah, it's a really beautiful legacy.

It's so crazy.

It's wild. How long did you live in your first— that first house with the drapes?

I lived there until I found out that I was a father. So I was in there for a long time. But the ironic part is, is that I still have friends living in that building, so I still go there.

So to go back.

I go there almost every day. That building has not left. I still see the same woman who gave me the apartment. I still see that. I still walk into that. I mean, it's crazy.

That's so cool.

That building is still in my life 20 years later.

That's so beautiful.

Yeah.

You just talked about until you moved to— when you found out you're going to be a father. Did you ever want to have children? Did you ever think you were going to have a family?

No, I didn't want children.

Yeah.

And I would still recommend to everyone who wants them, don't do it.

You're, that is, you're something about your children.

Your children are beautiful. I love my children, but don't do it. I believe, and this is going to be so controversial, I believe that, you know what, there's a divine plan for why certain species have homosexuality and you're given that gift of not having to reproduce.

So you're surprised out of nowhere one day But you are a father.

Jeremiah, did you really wanna be a dad when you were a kid? I know you have beautiful children now, but did you really?

No. I mean, this is the truth is, and I don't think I've ever shared this either, at least for me, my childhood was so tough and so tumultuous and I didn't wanna bring any, I just couldn't imagine that I had enough to give a child. Like I just, I just, you know, and plus at the time, you know, there wasn't a lot of great love stories for our community.

Yeah.

And I was like, I guess I'll just be like, you know, in the hills with a couple dogs, you know, I'll be fine. Fuck you. I'll be so cute.

Yeah.

I love that.

You literally described my life. I have 2 dogs now living in the hills.

Yes. But you're madly in love, so I don't want to hear it. And then I met Nate and it all changed. But, you know, it's, I definitely didn't expect it.

Yeah. Yeah.

What was that call like?

That call for me is probably the similar feeling you had when you didn't expect it because you didn't know. Yeah. So it was now like reconciling those feelings you had before of saying, like, well, I had this tumultuous childhood. I don't know if I can do this, if I want to do this.

Right.

But now it's become this real option, this real thing that you then have to say, okay, well, this is where I define myself as a man and a human being. And that's where I then said, either I step up and I do it or I don't. And this goes back to probably similar to you. Where you then say, do I rewrite the legacy of my family and change the course and not create the same childhood for my children that I had? Or do I, in this moment, fall victim to the things that happened to me and unfortunately pass on that cycle of trauma that my children had? And I grappled with that.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, I've missed 10 years now, unbeknownst to me, of 9 years of my child's life. Like, I did have this thought. I thought to myself, no one would think or say to me, you're wrong for not wanting to be in this kid's life that she didn't tell you about. And I heard people say that.

Of course.

People would be like, like now in hindsight, of course everyone's like, oh, you made the right decision. But at the moment they're like, this woman who you had sex with at 15 years old doesn't tell you have a child and then pops up later asking for back child support and you're supposed to just jump at it? No one was— people were on my side. They were like, you don't need to do this. You don't need to be a part. You don't even know if this is blah, blah, blah. But in that moment, it was reconciling those feelings I had. And I think that we have— all of us as human beings have those moments consistently where we have to ask ourselves, who are we going to be? How are we going to change for the better? And those critical moments come. I think pretty often, and they sometimes are big moments like a kid, or sometimes small moments like a decision when you see someone hungry and you decide to pretend like you don't have any money on you, or you decide to maybe walk in a store and buy something for a dollar. I think there's critical moments that define us, and this was one that defined me. And I was thankful that I made the right decision, even though it was based on the fact of me not wanting to give my kids the childhood I had, it still was a decision that was, was best and helped me grow and help them grow.

Were you different than you thought you would be as a parent?

Yeah. Because I'm really strict.

Really?

You and I are strict parents.

Well, I like to say consistent. Just consistent.

That's your— I like that.

I thought I was going to be a lot tougher than I am. I'm really like, yes, I'm consistent and they don't— like there's rules, But, you know, I thought I just— everything I thought I was going to be is different. I'm different than I thought, which I'm happy to report because I did not— I look back at what I thought I was going to be and I wouldn't have wanted to be that anyway. It's fascinating to like, you know, break a cycle.

It is fascinating. I don't mind being the strict dad. I think for me, raising boys, I felt like I needed to be stricter because I really wanted to make sure that they didn't fall prey to some of the like stupid shit boys fall prey to. Yeah, and it was tough. But yeah, I mean, it's great now. It's great now. But I think more so what they did is they gave me a chance to focus. I wouldn't have this career if I'd have kids. Really?

Why?

Because I was a train wreck that didn't heal my past, that loved a fucking party and a fucking 2 drinks minimum. Are you kidding me?

Like, well, some things never change.

Some things never change. But what happened is when I became a father, I stopped everything. Everything was about them. Everything was about them and my career, their futures, my future. And I honestly believe they saved my life.

What was the impetus for adopting Christian?

So Christian is my biological son, is Jason, who I received when he was 10. And then I stayed in the state of Texas in Houston while I had gotten custody of him for a year and a half to allow him to be close to my family at his mother's side, sort of that transition period. And during that time, his little brother was being molested. And I was a safe placement so they didn't have to put all the kids in foster care. And it's just during that time, it was supposed to be for, you know, 6 weeks, I think something short like that. Turned to 6 months, and then 6 months turned into a year. And then one day he walked in my room and called me dad, and I was like, oops. Well, he's doing better, so he's doing extremely better. So how about take them both? You know what I mean? So just dumb. Just dumb.

Not dumb. The biggest heart in the world.

In the moment, dumb. I was 26 with literally no money doing—

you were a baby.

Baby, I was 26 and said, let's take on another fucking kid. Wow. Dumb, but yes, in hindsight, great. Oh, you know, sweet and all that stuff. Everything is— I tell this story now and it's always great to tell because it sounds so sweet and lovely, but in the moment, the reality of it, it was like a shit show. In my mind, the kids didn't know it was a shit show, but I knew it was a shit show.

Right. I can't imagine being 26 with that type of responsibility overnight.

With a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old.

Yeah, that's insane. And by the way, not easy ages. I have basically a 10-year-old and a 7-year-old now, and it's just, it's a, they're like fully formed people at that point that you, yes. And I've been a part of their journey. You inherited their journey.

And that was the hardest part because like I'm dealing with things like that I didn't even realize were coming. I mean, like, well, for Christian, it was like some, it was a trauma. We knew it. Like, yeah, I was, that was simpler. I like, I knew to get him therapy. I knew to get him to take his medication. I knew how to handle adult from, like, you know, one of his big things is, like, people coming up behind him and hugging him, like, and he would flip out. And so I knew how to handle that. I knew how to handle those things. But Jason, on the other hand, he had been just rejected his entire life because he didn't look like his other 4 siblings because they had a different father. They were lighter skin. He felt— he was told that he wasn't as attractive as his siblings. He was told that he wasn't smart, that he wasn't going to amount to anything. And so, like, when I got him and I would tell him that he could do anything and that his in the world he wants to do, he didn't believe me because he spent 9 years of his life telling him that he wasn't good enough and that he would never be anything. And so I was fighting against his past while trying to build him up for his future. It was like, girl, girl, I'm 26. I still didn't even reconcile my own issues with my own daddy and my own family. And I'm over here trying to Maybe that's why they came into your life. They did. That is exactly why. That is exactly why.

You guys healed each other, which is so beautiful. When did you come out as gay?

Well, you know, I don't use the term coming out, and I'm trying to abolish it.

Yes. What are we calling it now?

The term is, and what the actual act is, is letting people in. You didn't come out. You let people in.

That's right.

You let people in, Jeremiah.

You're right.

And I think what happens is that when we start, I think the term coming out was an empowering term that men and women and trans individuals and queer people use because it's empowering. It was like, I'm not going to let you meet high. I'm going to be out. But now it's a bit antiquated. You're giving the power to someone else to deny or accept you. You're creating this space where someone else feels as if they are entitled to knowing every part of your life. Which is not the truth. And I don't want to raise another generation of LGBTQIA people feeling as if people are entitled to know every part of them. I am not ashamed of any part of my life. I am not ashamed of who I love or what I do. But everyone is not worthy of being let into my house the same way everyone is not worthy of being let in my front door. Like, I don't let every stranger in my front door because of some— because I have— Because you forced me to? No. So I started letting people in who I trusted, who I loved, at the age of 15. Wow.

And never looked back.

And never— she couldn't, Karamo.

She couldn't. Jig's up, I guess.

She couldn't.

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Can I ask you a question now before I, because I want to get into kind of like your professional life and your career and stuff, but just full circle, given where you came from, the environment that you grew up in, can you speak to your home now and the environment that you've created and what it means to you? Like, what does that space feel like to you?

I've created a sanctuary. My house is bright because I felt like growing up there was always darkness around. So there is no shades on any of my windows. Everything's just bright, bright, bright. Even the one window that does have, it has frosting on it because I don't want shades. Also, like, I have beautiful art of Black folks who are strong and have overcome. Like, you can even see this.

I love that painting behind you.

Everything is like about strength and about being able to overcome. And so I've created a place that just feels— it embodies lightness and strength and love. And it's also open, which I believe open spaces make people feel welcome. And so I've created the spaces that I didn't have as a child.

That's so beautiful. And for somebody that you've spoken at length about your journey towards self-awareness and acceptance, do you have ceremonies or things in your house that remind you to be present that way, or things that you do through your space?

Well, I'm really organized and I'm really neat, so I believe in making— so I joke my house is always ready for guests because it is. And Maybe it's the way that you grew up in chaos. My house will never be in chaos. And so I think that is a practice of making sure everything looks beautiful for myself because I would like to walk in and everything be beautiful because it makes me feel calm. I like my fridge to be organized. I love to— Who doesn't? You would not believe how many people walk into my fridge and they're like, there's some Kardashian friend. I'm like, why don't you just organize your fridge? You don't have to just throw everything in there.

Just clean that bottle, bitch.

Clean the bottle. Turn it face forward. Like, I don't have kids. I get the girls that have kids. You can't maybe not do that. Okay.

Cause now you can still do it. This girl's got kids and I keep a clean, a clean refrigerator, but I'm a psycho.

I believe that. I believe that I'm a psycho too. I believe all of us on the cast are psychos.

For sure. There's definitely some common thread. Can I ask you, where did this come from? Your ability to read people and your innate ability to connect with someone, because I watched it firsthand and more importantly, and I think what I will spend a long time trying to like explain to people about the four of you is you're so much more than people even understand. I mean, Karamo would walk into a room and whether or not people were being produced to do something, he would turn around and go, that is not what's happening. That is not what she's going through. That's not the story. And I'm going to do this. And he would get to the core of what was going on. But you could do it instantaneously. Where did it come from?

First of all, thank you.

Well, I mean it.

I can't wait till we start going on our press tour for this season because the greatest gift you gave us and gave me is— you do a job for so long, you start to forget. You start to be jaded. You forget the magic. And watching Watching this show through your eyes this season made me fall in love with Queer Eye in a way that— I mean, like, I've always enjoyed it. I've always loved it. So it's not like that. But I just— watching it through your eyes, I started to fall in love with the heroes even more. It was like— it's so crazy. I'm so thankful for you for that. Like, you brought this breath of fresh air that reminded us of what we were doing was special and what we were doing— and that we have a skill and that we have gifts. Because being together for so long, we sort of got into a routine. We know that Tan's doing this, I'm doing that. And so I say that to say, even you commenting on the fact of how I approach and how I'm able to see people quickly, I think I forgot because it became routine. Yeah. So thank you.

Of course.

For reminding me of what we were there to do. But I think part of it is that growing up, I had a grandmother that would say, you have two ears and one mouth, so you're supposed to be doing one of those things double time, which is listening, not talking. And so I spend a lot of time empathetically listening. And I think it's a skill that we could teach more. I think most people are ready to solve a problem or give a solution or tell someone in their opinion before the person has even finished what they're saying. And one of the things that you kind of alluded to is that I would really try to listen, really listen to what are you telling me your real issue is. And we do have amazing producers who would try to go down a path and be like, this is the issue. And it's like, no, girl, it's not the issue. And I get it. We're filming a TV show, so we're going to make sure, you know, it works with a TV show. But when I have my personal conversation, I'm gonna go a little bit deeper and you don't have to use it for TV. We're gonna get to whatever that core is.

It was quite a thing to watch. It was remarkable to see.

Thanks, Boo. I appreciate it. You're pretty remarkable.

Oh no, but I'm serious. You know, it's, I've talked about this before, but it's, I'm serious too.

You're fucking remarkable.

I'm serious too. No, but it's crazy. I mean, you could walk in and you could zero in and sometimes it's just energetically. Sometimes people didn't even say anything. And you could tell, like, you know, and the thing about this show that I'm gonna spend my entire life trying to articulate is that I've done television for 13 years. This show is real. Like, you actually watch people walk into new versions of themselves, this next evolution. And, and to be a little, you know, a part of that and to watch what you did. Do you take your own advice? Are you tough on yourself like that?

No, I barely take my own advice.

I love your advice.

But that's true for anybody who works in like, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we don't give our own advice. No, I don't take my own advice. Oh my gosh, if I took my own advice, I wonder what my life would really be like. But no, I don't take my own advice because I'm living it and I'm still trying to heal from it. See, it's so easy to identify someone else's trauma and see how to like start fixing it, how to put a little peroxide on it, how to put a little Band-Aid on it. It's so easy. But like the wound that's on my back, I can't see it. So I don't know how much it's festered. So I could never take my own advice to fix it because that's why I need, you know, we all have to reach out for our own help. But it is amazing with our show where you really, it is mind-blowing to me even after 9 seasons that you really see somebody on a Monday and by Friday they are a completely different person and they are completely entranced in this experience that you don't even realize It's beyond. But something that happened this season that I will never— is the first time I've seen someone faint after walking into your place, a place you redesigned. Do you remember when she fainted?

Well, a light fall.

It was probably one of the most powerful moments I've ever seen. She was so thankful and taken aback by your thoughtfulness that I was blown away. I was like, oh my gosh, Jeremiah is Michael Jackson.

Thank you, I think.

It's not Michael Jackson in the sense of like how people fainted for him. You know, you go to a concert, people faint.

No, no, no. It was everything. It's like this collective energy of—

It is a collective energy. But bitch, you made someone faint.

No.

You made someone faint.

Listen, natural stone will go a long way. That's all I can say. Do you like doing television? Because you— so you started What, the 15th season you were on The Real World in Philly? You've been doing this for a while. Do you like television and what it is and what it represents?

I love it. Girl, she's a star.

She is a star. She's got a talk show, folks. She's a star.

I like the business side of television more, to be honest with you.

Yeah.

I always tell people it's called show business, and I love the business side a lot more. Having conversations and talking to a brick wall, I can do all day long. Yeah, I mean, you've been with me. I, I make friends very easily.

Very easily.

Very easily. I'm somebody who it's like, in 2 minutes, I'm like, I want to talk to them. And then we're friends. We've exchanged numbers. We're hanging out later. You know that about me. So that makes the show side very easy for me because I have no problem with connecting with anyone.

And— Right.

But the business side is what excites me of like trying to figure out how to How do you make this work? And how do you make something, a brand that's going to sustain? How do you, how do you figure out how to help people in this way that's going to be not only beneficial to them emotionally, mentally, but also lucrative for you as a business person? That excites me about this. And I will stay in this business because of that.

You're on the side of television that's like spectacular because I said, I've said this before, but like good television, the type of television that you could sit in the safety of your living room and learn something about the world or yourself or your journey and connect to people that look entirely nothing like you. That's what it's supposed to be about. That's like when it's perfect, you know, that's when it changes everything. It's when it shifts the dynamic culturally. So that's what you've been a part of since day one.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Real World was that. I mean, being the first openly gay African-American on reality television, I mean, from that is it just, it shifted the conversations beyond and then to anyone.

Was that house clean inside? Like, explain to me.

Fucking disgusting.

Oh, I knew it, I knew it.

It was disgusting. No, we were there, we were almost there for 4 months, and by month after the first month, I only walked around that place with fucking flip-flops on because you have everyone's guests are coming in, they're around the restrooms, and we were required to clean it. And the thing about 20-year-olds is that we have this idea in our head, if I didn't create the mess, I'm not going to clean the mess. And so it would just pile. And then the hair in the showers, and it was just—

oh my God.

The only thing that they did do eventually is they realized, like, we have to hire a crew to clean the bathroom, which I was appreciative. And so after the first month, they realized the girls weren't cleaning it. They had a crew come in every, you know, 2 days and clean the toilets and the bathroom and the showers. But the rest of the house was disgusting. We had a scabies outbreak during my season.

That's not true.

It's so true.

Scabies?

Scabies. It was the first time I ever learned of what scabies was because I got to tell you, as a Black man, I missed— you know when white kids were getting checked for lice? They would always skip over it because we didn't have—

Oh, how lovely.

Yeah, it was so— like, you remember they would come with pencils and they would check white kids' They didn't check me. So I didn't know lice, I didn't know scabies. And then I lived in a house full of 6 white strangers. And then we had scabies and lice all in the same season.

Oh no. Where are these bitches hanging out at?

Oh my God. In Philly?

No.

Oh. In Philly.

How do you— can I ask, you're on the road all the time, right? Between shooting your talk show for Queer Eye. When you're traveling, like, how do you stay grounded? Like where do you go? Like where are your spaces? Or do you rush back? Like, is it hard for you to leave home and go on location to these places?

It is extremely hard because I love my home.

Mm-hmm.

And when I'm away, I have now made it a routine over the past 6 years that the minute I'm not on camera, I'm on a flight to be back in my home.

I can vouch for that.

Yes, you can vouch for that. There, there was my home.

5:35, gotta go.

She's on a plane. She's on a plane. She's home in her bed.

And we love that jet suite.

She loves it. She loves it. And the same thing for New York. Like, I film in, you know, on the East Coast in Connecticut, my talk show. And I finish at Friday at 5 PM. And I'm usually on a 7:35 flight to LA. And even if it's just for 3 days, I truly believe in just being in my home because I have unfortunately have not had a career that has ever allowed me to be in my own city.

Yeah.

And it's so torturous and like weird, like tricks that like, I know everyone else I know works in their cities. I know. And every show I have ever booked has taken me away from my home. And I'm like, what is that about? There's something that the world, that God, the universe is going to reveal to me one day of why this has been the life that has chosen where it's taken me away. But right now I'm like, okay, girl, I'll go with it. But just know I'm going to be home every second I can. So my sanctuary is home, but when I'm away, I do bring things with me to make sure my home feels like home. Like, I bring certain, like, candles. I bring certain music with me. I, you know, music players. I just do things so that wherever I go, it feels consistent. Also, whatever place I'm staying in, I paint, I redecorate. I redecorate everything. Did you know that in the hotel where we were staying, the hotel that I was staying in in Vegas, I redecorated it. No, bitch.

I'm not judging you. I did the same thing in the house that we were in.

You have to. You have to. You have to because you know this better than anyone else. Your space is your peace. And like, I can't walk into a space and feel so uncomfortable. So girl, I need to move things around. I need to get new pillows. I need to get new throws. I need to get new art for the wall. I need to put pictures up. Like every place I go, I print pictures of my partner, of the kids. I print them and put them next to my side bed. Like, this is in hotel rooms because I want to walk in there and feel like I'm still in my home.

Yeah, I'm inhabiting this place.

Yeah, yeah.

Right now in your life, where do you feel the most at home?

In your arms.

Well, come on over here, boo.

Okay, that was quick. That was quick.

That was quick.

Um, where do I feel most at home? In Los Angeles, obviously, usually with my best friend Trey. I feel at home with him always, with my son. Who else? What else do I feel at home with? I just feel at home. LA makes me feel at home.

I know you love LA. All right. Do you want to do a couple rapid-fire questions and then I'll leave you alone?

Yeah.

What sign are you?

Scorpio.

I knew that. And boy, are you a Scorpio.

All the fucking way.

All day long. Do you have any heirlooms that were passed down to you?

None.

Really?

None. But I think there's going to be one that's coming.

Okay.

Because my mother has some from my grandmother and grandfather that I will come.

What was your grandmother's name?

Sybil. And my grandfather's name was Dalton.

Oh, so elegant.

Is Sibyll and Dalton.

Oh, okay. What's the most interesting place that you've been to recently? PG.

You have to tell me, PG.

I know.

Um, the most interesting place I've been to recently?

Yeah. Don't say Vegas.

I don't know, girl. Like, it's all a blur.

Have you been staying home for the summer and just like being—

Yeah, you remember I took a month and a half off and I have been enjoying myself.

I took a perfume class.

No.

Oh, you told me you were going to do this.

Yeah, we've been— it's been so great. It was so fucking phenomenal. Please, if anyone has an opportunity to make their own scent, do it.

Well, you don't have to tell me twice.

Oh, I know. You give a signature scent to every home we went into, which was the most amazing thing. I really wish smell-o-vision was a thing so that people at home could smell the stuff. Because I'm like, this is amazing.

What are you watching right now?

Emily in Paris, Interview with a Vampire.

Is it good?

It's so good.

OK, I'm going to start it.

But I've also been the kid that has fantasized since I was a child of someone turning me into a vampire. Like, I'm that weirdo, like, that at 9 years old left my window open hoping a vampire would come in and, like, turn me.

I think you'd be a great vampire.

Would love to be a vampire. It's so on brand for you. If they were real, I would love to be a vampire. I like that for you.

I was obsessed with vampires growing up because my mother used to read all those Anne Rice books and I would read them, which was totally inappropriate, but—

Yeah, it's totally inappropriate. Totally. But it worked.

Okay. Last question. If you could instantly become an expert in something, what would it be?

Design.

Yeah. My design assistant.

I mean, I have asked, I have asked since season 1 for them to do one episode, whether it be digital or not, where we all change position for one episode.

It's so fun.

So fun. Let's see. It's going to be chaotic, but let's just have a little fun with it.

I would kill to do that.

Do you know which one you'd want outside of yours? I think I'd want food. Yeah.

Maybe fashion, but fashion stresses me out. Definitely don't want hair and makeup.

Don't.

Don't.

No.

Poor Jinia, when her eyelash came off and she was crying, I didn't know what to do with it. Like, I was like, I'm the wrong one. I can't even— do I put it back on? I don't know the rules.

Yeah, I can see you for food. I would say Tan would probably do hair.

Yeah, Tan would be good for hair.

I'd say Jackie do culture.

He's a good listener.

He would, yeah, he would. He's going to listen. He's going to go deep with it. He will totally be good at it. Yeah.

We have to push that. That'd be so much fun.

I think it'd be fun. And I would love to design something. I'd like—

I'd love to see what you do.

Girl, if you saw my house that I designed, girl, you would be proud.

I've seen pictures of your house. It's beautiful.

Thanks.

Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. You're the best.

Listen, I love you. You're amazing.

I just want to say a special thanks to Karamo for coming on and being so open and sharing his story. He's so charismatic, as you can tell, not hard to love. I'd also love to hear about the special places and pivotal moments in your life. So be sure to post, comment, or tag us on Instagram @caclosets. Ideas of Order is a California Closets podcast. Thanks to the team behind the scenes. This episode is produced by Rob Schulte and Rachel Senator at Sandow Design Group.