Karamo Brown on Evolving Sexual and Emotional Needs Over Time

If you can't handle my truth when it comes to my intimacy, if you can't handle calm conversations about what I need and me equally hearing what you need, then we weren't supposed to be together.

This is a word that you just gave me of talking about seasons of intimacy.

Mm-hmm.

Define what that even means.

I think the problem in any relationship, intimate relationship, is when people are afraid to let the other person grow and change. I know you so much better than you know yourself that this is what you want and this is who you are. If you have real intimacy, I'm gonna be curious, has anything changed? That's what I know now. I had never reflected on that relationship. Never. If I would have felt like they were going to listen more and not be afraid, then I think we could have probably saved it. I was in a space at first where all touching was light and love. And I'm like, no, let's go here now.

What changed?

Um, do you walk this fast often? If I was trying to get rid of my— like, avoid my kids, I'd be like, y'all stay there. I'd walk this way. Y'all stay there. I'll be back.

OK, so how this show works, it's really an educational moment where you take center stage as the teacher.

OK.

So you get to pick anything that you want to teach people about intimacy.

Because we're talking about with partners, right? You believe it's magic. It took me a very long time to talk about and rediscover the intimacy I needed. Because I was stuck in a pattern of who I was in a long-term relationship. And I thought that's just who I was and what intimacy was.

You know, I love this topic too because it also speaks to people who are in long-term relationships. Sometimes it's easier to break up than to reintroduce yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Because that person knows you a certain way and if you have a change, they can take it personally.

Yep.

Like, oh, you're doing this because of me versus acknowledging that me is an ever-changing.

Agreed. Agreed. And I fell victim to that. I was in a 10-year relationship.

This is it.

This is it?

This is it.

This is our first date. Oh, okay, great. Oh, great. Oh, okay, great. Okay, great. Okay, good.

Hi, Karamo.

Hi.

It feels weird to say hi after we've already said hello.

I said hello. It's fine. I'm with it.

Okay, I wanna get nosy right now and talk and ask you about your intimate life.

Okay.

So you're with somebody right now.

I am.

Give me the glowing review.

It's brand new, actually. It's about 6 months.

'Cause I couldn't find it online.

No. So I broke up about a year ago and didn't tell nobody 'cause I decided I'm single. I'm just tired of telling people about my relationship.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we are in spaces where we can share and we can share a lot. And I used to love sharing. I used to love being the example for sharing my life, my kids' experiences. And I don't know what just happened this time. I decided I don't wanna share this one. I don't wanna share it at all. And so I have not posted about it. I ain't posted about the breakup and I didn't post about the new one.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. I'm in a protective season.

Mm-hmm.

And I, feel protective of this new relationship. And I've never felt protective of a relationship that I've dated. I've always been like, yeah, let's talk, let's share. And this one, I feel so protective. And it's been thus far the healthiest relationship I've had. No unhealthy communication, no arguments. He wanted to start therapy within the first month. I mean, this shit is good.

I am so with you because I'm also queen of oversharing.

Yeah.

And then I actually went back and privated a bunch of videos the start of this year.

Oh, wow.

Just because in thinking that it's okay, like I don't have to, especially I think in the political time that we're in right now and who's most active online.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, it just felt like I don't, I can create a safe space for my people to have these kinds of conversations. I can still be open and honest.

Agreed.

But I am also allowed to be in a season where I don't want to share that with everybody.

Listen to us. Look at why we in the same season.

I know, right?

I'm with that.

Well, I'm using the S word too, because this is a word that you just gave me of talking about seasons of intimacy. Mm-hmm. Define what that even means.

So season of intimacy for me is, I think that we talked about this a little bit earlier. The person I was at 20 and what I needed for intimacy and what I needed at 30 are different. And what I need now at 40 is different. And I think that sometimes you get trapped into feeling as if the season you're in, that becomes now who you are for the rest of your life. And I was sharing before, like before this healthy relationship, I mean, there was a relationship a couple years back where I was in a 10-year relationship. We almost got married.

Yes.

And the intimacy in that relationship suffered. It suffered immediately. It wasn't good. We never knew how to get out of it because of the fact that I was probably stuck in not being able to share that my needs of what intimacy is has changed. And because we've been together for 10 years, we just kept it on this same pattern and path. And it really damaged the relationships in a lot of ways because we got stuck. We got stuck in a routine of intimacy, in a season of intimacy that we shouldn't have been in. We should have evolved out of, we should have grown through, but we were too scared to communicate about it. Or didn't know how to communicate about it. So just messed everything up.

Can you backtrack for me? How do you even define intimacy?

Intimacy for me? Communication, touching, thoughtfulness, exploration, and curiosity.

Yes.

Oh, I love those additions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Those things for me are like, are really good.

You know what's— curiosity is really hitting for me because I think a lot of people believe that intimacy is the opposite of curiosity.

No.

It's like a deep knowing.

No.

Like, I know you. I know you better than you know yourself.

No! But see, that's that thing of that getting stuck. I know you so much better than you know yourself that this is what you want and this is who you are. And if you have real intimacy, I'm gonna be curious, has anything changed? That's what I know now. Has anything changed? You like something different? You want something different? And I think that's such an exciting thing about, you know, how I see intimacy now. I don't wanna know you all the way deep and through because you're a person and you're allowed to evolve and change. Yes.

You know what's so interesting about that is that I had my cousin read a book because we're talking about romantic loves, but just in general, keeping that curiosity there. And my cousin read a book called How to Know a Person because I loved it. I was like, you got to read it. It's so amazing. And we were in a conversation one day and she said something like, oh yeah, I listened to this live. I was like, you listen to that?

Yeah.

And she was like, yeah, I'm really interested in this topic. And I was like, wow, I didn't know that. She's like, yeah, because you stack me. And then I was like, what? She's like, remember the book you told me to listen to? It talked about stacking people. And stacking people is when you're playing a you're like, oh, he likes green, he wears running shoes, he's in a relationship right now. And then I'm creating this tower of knowledge. And then when something in the middle becomes untrue, ripping that out almost puts the whole structure at risk.

This is good.

Right?

What book is this?

It's called "How to Know a Person" by David Brooks. It is phenomenal.

Stacking?

Yeah.

I've never heard of this. And that is, that is such a clear picture for people.

Right.

Oh yes. Okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to get that excited.

That's exactly right.

I love learning new stuff. That was good.

And they talk about the difference between stacking versus constructionism, which is curiosity. And constructionism is when you build things almost like a pavilion, low to the ground with a lot of open air. And so if something changes on one section, it's not gonna make the whole structure— Yeah, just one part that you now have to redefine.

Okay, first of all, I was gonna say, why didn't people teach us this when we were younger? But I'm glad that you're here teaching people now. And that is the beauty of this. See, this is, I keep saying, I keep, I'm so thankful that I keep running into individuals like yourself who I wish I had when I was younger. Because, Lord, if you would've been around, I'd been listening to you when I was freaking 20, I'd have been like, you're not going to stack me. You're not going to stack me right now, OK? This intimacy is about to be right here. What is it?

A pavilion.

Pavilion, OK? We need to know that if something changes, it's fine, and we have open air so I can breathe. Jesus, I wish I had you.

Yeah.

But I have you now.

Oh, thank you.

Oh, that's so good.

And it was such a good, like, what's the word when somebody flips it on you? Yeah. Flipped it on me.

Yes.

Where I'm like, no, I know how to know people, I know how to love people. But yeah, sometimes, especially in those older relationships, you take the curiosity out.

Yeah.

Anyways, you were defining intimacy as touch.

I'm gonna stop at curiosity now. That's all it is. That's all my— now anytime anybody asks me what intimacy is for me, it's that curiosity. It's also communication, the touch, the loving, but curiosity, the big one for me. That is what has made, um, also honesty. That was big in there as well. Honesty. If I had to define the two, I think the honesty and the curiosity are the two biggest ones. I think that's what's made this new relationship so healthy is since day one, we have been so curious about what the other needs, desires, is afraid of, is open to changing, would like to explore, but also being honest about those things and not feeling as if like, I can't say this. I remember I used to have things that were happening to me sexually that I used to just feel like I'm supposed to put up with this. Like, you can't say nothing. I don't know where I used to get that from. I don't know who put that in our head.

Can you give me an example?

Yeah. So I don't want to be graphic, but like—

Please do. This is the place. If anywhere.

Like, I, I, um, to this day, I normally hate oral sex on me because most people are teethy and I hate it. And I would just allow people to scratch up my genitals. And I was like, This feels uncomfortable and this does not feel good. And I don't know why I never once for many years would say, hey, I don't like that. I just felt like you gotta just go with it and then stop it at some point and like kiss or something. But like, I just never would ever say to somebody, this don't feel good.

Yeah.

Until now, I'm like, hey, I would love maybe if we tried it this way, maybe we did this in a different way, maybe, you know, and it's just the first time in my life It took me to 40 to do that, right? 40. I have not enjoyed oral sex until 40. Wow.

And that's a lot of years.

That's a lot of years. And I'm a homosexual. Yeah, that is the first thing we like to do, okay? That's the first thing we want to do. And I did not enjoy it. Yeah. And I just did not know how to say to someone, this is not— this doesn't feel good to me. And I wonder why. I wonder why, and I wonder who taught me that.

Well, the reason why I question you is because this is like age-old script for everybody with a vulva. We're all like, yes, that's what we're conditioned. It's not— sex is not about us. It's not for us.

Yeah.

And you diminish the experience if the person with a penis doesn't feel like they're naturally incredible at this. So you fake orgasms. You fake it. You act like you like it even if you don't. So it's actually really affirming to hear a man say, like, no, I got that same messaging too.

Yeah, I got that same— and I don't know where I got that from. I mean, I grew up in a household full of all women. So maybe I unconsciously picked that up through their experience. Or maybe there's something deeper within the gay community I've never explored because gay men don't really talk about sex like they should.

Really?

Gosh.

Oh my gosh, no. They talk about—

Why is this mind-blowing to me?

They talk about bang, bang, bang. But I have very few friends that will talk about what intimately they want and how they want it. It is very rare. And I don't want to generalize, but like, I'm shocked because— what do you think? Don't involve me. No, I want to know, like, seriously, as a gay guy, do you think that we talk about intimacy like the way we should? I think a lot more, but it's graphic. It's not intimate. It's not intimate. It's graphic. We talk about graphic stuff. We talk about sex in a graphic way, but it's not instructive. It's not instructive. It's not instructive. It's very rare when you come across somebody who's instructive and careful and loving. And thoughtful.

I'm shocked, and I actually am checking my shockness. I'm shocked because on the orgasm scale, gay men are most likely to orgasm during sex, straight women least likely, and then lesbians fall in between there, and then bisexuals in between there.

But at the top is gay men.

Yes. And so I'm like, oh, like, they must be talking. But just because you orgasm, it doesn't mean that you had good sex.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I can get off But it doesn't mean that during that time we were like, you know what I mean? And most people know how to like just eventually just get themselves off.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, okay, you come here, you sit here and I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna get off and then bye. You know, it gets transactional sometimes.

And the person never learns because they didn't—

They never learned, you know what I mean? Anyway, that's just, so maybe there's something within that of why I allowed so many years of not communicating about it.

Well, can we talk about the seasons that you went through and if you can label them? In your 20s. And I actually think it's very interesting because I wonder how many people in their 20s even ask themselves, period, what do I want out of intimacy? Or if they just fall into the script of what their friends are doing and what might appear cool. But I'm curious.

That was me.

Okay.

20s, definitely what everyone is saying, doing, no real thought, no real conversation. 30s, desire to have those conversations about intimacy, figuring out more what I wanted. But because I was now in the phase of like, I'm supposed to be building a life with someone, I was scared to rock the boat.

Tell me more about that.

I'm supposed to now have a husband, a partner, the family, the life. We're supposed to get there now for 20 years. We're supposed to build it. And if I ask you something or say something about what I need and it's not met well, what happens to the structure that we've stacked up? Does it fall apart now? Are we gonna be done? And I think that was a big thing for me. I was so afraid of being clear about my intimacy that if I really look back at my 10-year relationship, it was a big moment that I think if we would have solved that, who knows, we could have been together now. You know what I mean? Who knows? That could have been something that could have, you know, helped us to stay together.

Did you guys start in the same season? Like, did it start where you're like, I love the intimacy that we share, I like it, and then switched at some point?

Yes, it did. The intimacy in the beginning was beautiful and lovely and new, fresh but familiar. And then, I don't know, somewhere in year 4, it switched. But I also started hitting a different way of— I saw the life. I became— I felt more confident as a father. I felt more confident in my career. Everything felt more confident. And that confidence started coming out in what I needed sexually and intimately. And I think that might have made them uncomfortable, and then I didn't express it. And so we just kind of like pretended like it didn't exist.

Yes. And then life was busy. I've actually heard you talk about this before, how this was just a really busy time in your life. Kids were younger, they required a lot more. Your career was taking off. Like, there were so many distractions.

Yeah, so many distractions. But I think within those distractions, I became confident because I was handling it all. And confidence breeds a new sense of what I need intimately. Mm-hmm. And I just was afraid because I don't think my partner— I'm— from my experience, from my point of view, wasn't ready for that confidence.

It's reminding me a lot of, like, people on vacation like themselves better than they do in their hometown, but because they give themselves permission to reinvent themselves.

Ain't that the truth?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And so we have this fear that we can't do that at home. Because people see us a certain way, and then everything would crumble and fall apart. And I wonder, like, what you can do to rid yourself of that fear and feeling.

I do actually think it's possible, because I think that, like, if people truly respect and love each other, communication can be built. But, you know, like, I've told people this a lot of times. I grew up in a household, my granny used to tell me, you got two ears, one mouth, which means you're supposed to be doing one of those things double time. So when I— which is actually good advice, really great advice. No, I built a life and a career off of that. Like, you're supposed to be doing something double time. You got one mouth, so are you listening more than you're talking? And so I spend a lot of time listening more, and then I'm trying to now cultivate friendships. And I have cultivated friendships with partners, especially with the guy I'm with, where we listen more than we both are talking. And And when you have that, if you can adapt that, then yes, I think in a relationship where it's been broken or like you are— you're growing differently in your intimacy, I think that if you really allow somebody the space to talk and not internalize what they're saying, not think that— because I think like, if I go back to my reflecting now, I've never done this. I've never reflected on that relationship. Never. This is so interesting that I'm doing this years later, but with you, and I thank you for this.

Oh, thank you for choosing me. It's the path.

Yeah, it is the path, girl. You got us walking there. Um, if I would have felt like they were going to listen more and not judge, or not be afraid— afraid is the better word— not be afraid, then I think we could have probably saved it.

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I think we could have saved it. I'm happy where I'm at. But in that moment, I could have probably saved it. And who knows what could have happened. Not saying I want to go back there, because I don't. But in that moment, I would have been like— I think what he would have heard would have made him fearful. And me thinking that he would have been fearful made me fearful. Because I was like, we're not going to rock the boat. I'm not going to try to make you afraid, and I'm not going to be afraid. So let's just do it. But I do think if we could have listened to each other better and and not talked and just given space to say, yeah, tell me what it is. What are you needing now? How did things change? When did they change? What's going on? And me not taking it on me, like if he said something, 'cause I would've been open to it. I'd have been like, great, okay, what? Because I wanted the conversation. But yeah, it could have been saved.

What changed?

My confidence. I knew who I was as a man.

That must be a huge shift. Shift?

It was a huge shift. Yeah, because I don't want it. And, and I also don't want certain body— like, certain ways you touch me, I don't want anymore. Because as I'm getting confidence in deciding who I am and what I really like and what I enjoy, I'm noticing that I enjoy more— I don't enjoy light touch as much. Like, I would like— I like more stronger, firmer touch. And I was in a space at first where all touching was light and lovely and this. And I'm like, no, let's go here now. How do we go here? How do we go here? And I think those conversations we couldn't have. Now you got me talking all extra details.

But you know what?

I mean, that's such a huge aha for me because I was in a relationship with someone that I lived in the past.

And similarly, I reflect back on that. I live with this person. Of I started to make the shifts within our relationship, even owning my expertise. And I never really had the conversation of like, here's how I'm changing. They were just seeing the changes and then putting out all these microaggressions about it.

Exactly.

Which made me feel like, well, there's nothing.

Ain't gonna happen.

Yeah. But I just, I'm kind of reflecting on, I'm like, was there a soft way that I could have had the dialogue that invited this person on this journey so they didn't feel like I was changing sort of in spite of them or inspired by them, because I learned in that relationship actually that I needed alone time.

In spite of them or inspired by them? I needed alone time.

Well, because in spite of is just like, you know, like, because you do this, and inspired is like, oh wow, like, it's the way you touch me lightly. And it's like, no, it's not your specific light touch. Yeah, it's that I'm just now in a season where this is a touch that I want now.

I want now.

But I just was— I didn't really know how to get that across.

Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, I struggled with that. I don't struggle with that anymore. Now I take it— I took away my own fear that if you can't handle my truth when it comes to my intimacy, then we don't need to be together. If you can't handle calm conversations about what I need and me equally hearing what you need, and we can't handle that, then we weren't supposed to be together because I'm not going to spend the next 40 years with someone who— because I plan on having a rich intimate relationship that's going to last 40 years. That is my goal. That is all I want and that is all I desire and that's all I will expect and, and get. And so it's exciting for me to know that now I'm not fearful of sharing with somebody and including them on that journey, but I'm also very and keenly aware that If you can't handle it, that is not my issue. See, that's where the 40s— that's— this is season of intimacy now. I'm in now. If you can't handle my clear communication about what I need and what I desire while also respecting what you want, because it's not one-sided, I want to respect what you want. But if you can't handle that, you can't have those conversations, then we ain't supposed to be together, right? Gone about your business.

Well, even the word handle is like, you should be excited by, right? You're excited to go to a new country because it's an opportunity to learn, to to try new foods, to be excited. We're all trying to get to the spot back.

But you know, a lot of people aren't. A lot of people aren't. Okay? They're not.

They travel to Thailand and be like, where's McDonald's?

Exactly. They want to go to McDonald's. They want to see what's regular to them. You know what I mean? And I'm not. You better be excited. You better be excited about what's coming.

Is that a character trait that you prioritize when looking for new partners?

Excitement? Curiosity?

Just like novel, wanting novel, wanting change, embracing change, openness.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I always say fresh and familiar, fresh and familiar. I need you to be excited about what's going to be fresh, but while also keeping it familiar. Like, I'm not somebody that's, you know, like extreme. I don't need to have extremes with you. Like, I'm not going to go from 0 to 100, but while we're doing something that's familiar, just know that it could become fresh. And when we're talking about that, how excited are you going to be about what it looks like next? How curious you're going to be about what I want that's gonna be fresh? How curious am I about what you want that's gonna be fresh while staying within the familiar territory? That's how I always done it.

That's a huge bar. And what's the percentage of fresh and familiar?

For me, I would say familiar is usually about, I'd say it's about half and half. Yeah, I'd say about, you know, maybe 60% familiar, 40% fresh. Yeah, that's more of a better, yeah. But I'm constantly like, what's fresh?

Mm-hmm, I love that. Can we roleplay that right now? Like how it would sound in a conversation? Even the example you gave of touch, right? So if we, every night, I rub his feet, he rubs my back, and there's a very specific way that we do this.

Yeah.

But if he wanted to change it up because he realized the past month that he was like, okay, I gave it a second to see if I actually don't like it or if it was the day. Now I know I don't want this anymore. How would that person bring up the conversation?

So before, I would have been like, let me just go ahead and keep rubbing my back. That would have been me. That would have been me in my 30s. I'd have been like, first of all, 20s would not even know that I need my back rubbed. 30, I, I need a change, but we're in our— we're— it's our thing. You rub my feet, you rub my back, I'm with it. 40 now is, oh, this feels nice, but I was thinking, how about we explore maybe going down a little bit more. How does that feel for you as you're going down? Does that feel good? Because it feels great for me. Okay, hold on, we're gonna get a little bit lower. A little bit lower. Okay, a little bit stronger. Is that too much pressure for you? Because it feels good for me. And then before we get too much into it, I'm gonna stop and say, all right, that's good. What do we think? Because we just switched it up. We switched it up a little bit. We still on my back, but now it's a little bit lower. Are you cool with it? And then once we get that verbal confirmation, we're both online. Then go back. Karamo. Yeah.

You really cooked right there.

That's how I do it.

You know what it is though too? Because a lot of people think that those conversations start with the yuck.

Yeah.

The like, hey, I want to talk to you.

No.

Sometimes you don't know what you want until you try something new or experiencing something new. So inviting novel isn't just about changing with your seasons, but it's also inviting new ones in that you may not have known were possible. But then also being able to turn around and say, we tried something new and I didn't like that.

Exactly. Give the space for it. I'm okay with that. It's a two-way street and I'm okay with that. And that's where I'm at in my new relationship. And that's what it is. It's just that. So the prior to this relationship, I was in another long— I'm a long-term relationship girl. She likes to get into 'em, stay in 'em.

But I could see people try to hold you down.

They do.

They do.

But I'm also, I lock a bitch down too.

Okay.

I like, I'm not on the, I get on a dating app for 3 weeks, a girl, then I find a relationship. I've always been that way. I know what it is. It's, I, I, cuz I love intimacy. I love love. I love intimacy. Um, I say that to say the one right before this, I was in this space, but they were still in their 30s space. And so, oh, it, it killed me.

And you couldn't bring them out of it?

I couldn't bring them out of it. I couldn't bring them out of it. Because again, they were in the season where they weren't ready to grow out of it. And like, that was a big thing for me because I was like, oh, it really sometimes also is maturity mentally where you're at, all these, like, I tried to have those conversations. And then at one point I said, oh, you're not ready. Oh, and then I, and with no malice, I was like, In my 20s, I don't think I would have been ready either. My 30s, I wasn't ready. I thought that I could guide you. And so I think that was a lesson for me as well. I just want to share that because sometimes you can do these things that we're talking about and you realize that the person is not ready and you'll be trying till you're blue in the face and they are not ready and it has nothing to do with you. They just ain't there yet.

Which is fascinating because essentially what ready means is to accept the invitation to be honest about what you really want and to receive my truth.

Exactly. And some people just are not ready. Some people are not ready. And I realized that with my first one, but like, I wasn't in the space either. So I was like, oh, maybe if I'm in the space, then I can guide somebody else through it. And I'm an effective communicator. You know what I mean? I done built a career off it just like you, girl. We can talk to somebody. We can figure it out. And I realized, no. Some people are just not in the space. And that was very freeing for me because it also let me know that The next time I'm dating, I'm gonna have clear conversations about, in the beginning, like, you know, where you at intimately, what do you want, what— and, and, and from the beginning, you know what I mean?

And so I want to circle back to the thing about your partner asking you guys go to therapy within the first month, because as a clear communicator, as somebody who was already in the space of knowingness, uh, what did a therapist teach you or add on to this that maybe helped you to even flourish even more in this season?

Well, because intimacy, as you already know, this is deeply impacted by trauma.

Yes.

And by your family and your background. And so if you ain't checking in on that, I don't care how much conversation we try to have about intimacy. If you got some stuff that's in your background that you don't want to talk about, that just— it's too hard. If you don't feel safe in certain settings, if you don't feel— if you have abandonment issues, Intimacy is gonna be so hard for you ever to like really discover. And I don't know if you feel the same way, but that's my opinion on it. Like, because if you haven't dealt with those things that are like hard for you, where you're not even comfortable with yourself, you can't get comfortable with me. You know what I mean? And so what it gave us of talking about this and being open is it gives us the idea that, oh, now the things that in our past that could pop up in a moment and affect us are not gonna affect us 'cause we're working on those while we're having honest communication and being curious about each other.

Mm. So then did you hear things for the first time about your partner in a therapy setting?

No. Um, things that we knew would come up that we talked about before, just getting guidance on how to make sure we navigate it so that it didn't affect us.

Oh my goodness. That's beautiful.

Beautiful. Yeah. I ain't never done none of this work. I'm trying brand new, brand new. Let's go for it. Let's go for it. And it's been, again, I've never felt at peace in a relationship like this. And I'm not trying to jinx it. And this is why, see, again, this is the beauty of it. This is the first time I can talk about a relationship and not everybody know who I'm talking about. And so it feels protected.

Yes.

Like no one knows. So like I'm not worried. Now people are not judging and watching him and picking at and looking at. Now I get to say these things comfortably. Like, yeah, that's what I'm doing.

And then when you're in a healthy relationship too, like, the permanence of it and the value of it is just there. You don't have to worry that you're going to be embarrassed in a year if it's not there anymore, because this interview will still be true.

Yes, this will still be true, and I love that. Yeah, I love it.

Now, this can seem idyllic for people, like, of course I'm in a relationship with somebody that we have these open conversations, we talk about our past, we are excited about our future, we're excited for change. But there also is something very terrifying about that because you're inviting that person to flip. You're inviting that person to decide, I want to go to Thailand, right? You're opening the door for that person to feel very comfortable with radical change and radical ideas. And a part of the thing that we want out of intimacy is stability. So do you think that there's any fear with that, that how do you create stability in a relationship that the foundational principle is, well, we can change and that's okay.

But see, like I said before, fresh and familiar. So we have our familiar. We know what we want. And I can't be afraid— I think the problem in any relationship, intimate relationship, is when people are afraid to let the other person grow and change. Like, I don't know when we got into this space that, like, who we are is who we're supposed to be. Like, I hate when I see couples and they're like, this is the only thing we do. We do this every day. And I'm like, ugh. Girl, give me a fucking break.

And they're waiting for you to clap. We've been together for 60 years.

Yeah. Give me a break. We are human beings that grow and change, and I want you to. And I want to just set the boundary, though, that when you want to grow and change, or when you feel growth or change coming on, that you include me from the beginning. Or you can include me from the beginning of your realization, like, because you might not know because you're still trying to figure it out. But the minute you realize it, include me there so that we can then go on that journey together. And I think when you do that, like, I told my new partner, I'm like, I'm going to include you on any changes that I'm feeling. And I made that promise to him. And it's the first time I ever made that promise really to someone. I tried to make it with my, my last person I was dating, but they weren't ready. But I'm like, I'm gonna include you. And so when new things pop up, I'm like, hey, something's popped up and I feel like this is where it's at. Can I talk to you about it? And it has been beautiful because now I don't have a fear. They don't have a fear and I don't have a fear of things going so dramatic and changing that now I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm not ready for this. I've been included. I've been included in the conversation. I've been included in what your journey is and where you're at. And so now I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with you growing and figuring out what it is. And if along that lines, I'm like, this is out of the realms of what I desire or that makes me feel safe in our intimacy, we have a conversation about how that shifts. But what I've experienced right now is that there's no fear when you've included somebody. There's no fear. There's no fear.

Well, because they had time to adjust as you're adjusting.

Exactly.

And you're learning together and you're in this together.

Exactly.

There's a rigidity that heterosexuality has, right? Where a straight man is just always trying to qualify himself as being man enough and straight enough. And so change can be very scary in those ways.

Yes, they can. Straight men, for me— this is going to sound condescending, but I don't mean this in a condescending way, please. When I look at straight men, I see little boys all the time, and I always see little boys that need to be loved and held on. And like, I just constantly always feel like I just gotta patience and like, you know what I mean? And it's because a lot of the things, they just went from boys to feeling like you had to be this, as you said, bottleneck, you gotta do this and you gotta be in this way. And I don't feel like there was enough of the progression of like, you know, it was like one day I could be curious about the world and the next day your curiosity means you're gay. I'm like, how did y'all do it? I just feel like I want to hug them. I'm like, it's like, be curious, look at the world, and the next day if you do, you're gay. And it's like, damn it.

And that day is 6 to turning age 7.

6 to 7, like literally, it's like, like there, and then it's like, done. You don't get to be curious about anything. You can't play with another toy. You can't look at another thing. You can't be interested in another sport. You can't be interested in anything except for what we tell you. And if you're not, If you are, you're— and so when I— because as a father, and I'm raising two little boys, well, they're grown now, but I used to want to introduce them to food, and their immediate thing was like, no, no, I'm not doing it. And I would then show them how the food was prepared. I would show them how much I enjoyed the food. I would Show them someone who they look up to or admired that enjoyed the food. And before you know it, they're sitting there and they're like, I want to try what's on that plate. And, and this is a hard thing because I also don't believe in putting this responsibility on women to have to coddle and be patient and do all these things. But from my experience, for me, because I'm not in an intimate relationship with them, I can be in a more coaching supportive way, is it's that patience of knowing that like that little boy in them got told if you explore anything new or be curious about anything, you're wrong. That introducing them to it bit by bit is the best way.

Because a straight man may never have a season, any other season.

Any other season. And so you gotta introduce it to 'em. And what I've realized is most straight men, want to have seasons, want to, but they're also scared. If I can be— I'm gonna be real with you, and I'm not gonna say the friend's name, but I have a friend right now who is so interested in exploring new things sexually in their relationship, and they are terrified of sharing it with their wife. Terrified. And the reason being is because unfortunately she's made comments of what she thinks a man should be.

Yes.

And he's internalized it, and those comments were flippant, and it's not what she thinks because I've talked to her. That's not her point of view. She doesn't want it. But because he's heard it, he's afraid to go there. And I'm trying to get him to realize, like, she's actually open. Explore it. Let's talk about it. Oh, you see this couple? They did it. It's working. And the more I'm showing him these things, showing him how it's working, He's getting more comfortable and comfortable, but it's been about a 3-month journey of helping my friend, who I'm close with, be willing to share with his wife of 20 years what he wants now. And he is terrified. And it is so interesting to see this man terrified, 'cause I've never seen this man afraid in his life.

That makes me, I mean, I'm thinking right now of the episode we had of like why straight men are boring in bed. And the crux of it really was, is because like boring is all they can be. They're just stuck between this rock and a hard place. And then you start having conversations with women about some of the things they may have said to a partner in the past, some of the seeds that they've said, things they've said on social media, and then you have more empathy for it.

Yeah.

I also just wanna reflect on, in closing too, about that kid thing of like seeing them as kids, because that also hits on the fresh and familiar bit. I saw this video of my husband when he was a kid.

Yeah.

And I think about it all the time.

Mm-hmm.

It's just like, both in knowing that he had this full life without me, and then also in knowing that, like, that little boy is, like, still there.

Still there.

And it just provides this bit of empathy. And it reminds me also, too, of going to therapy and having these conversations so that you are still acknowledging that person, you know, as you're going through changes, and they're reacting in ways that you may not understand.

Yep. Agreed, agreed, agreed. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I want to see pictures of you as a kid, but you were the cutest kid.

Oh my gosh, I was adorable. I should have been a child model.

No, I'm joking.

I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking.

OK, so where do people go for more of you?

The great part about having the name Karamo is you can go to Karamo on Instagram, go to Karamo on Twitter. Just Karamo. You don't got to do— if you want to find me on TV, the show is called Karamo. It ain't hard. Just Google Karamo. It is about two of us, but I'm more popular than the other one. You heard the man.

It's Karamo everywhere, and everywhere is exactly where you need him in your life.

Books, TV shows, social media.

And I'm really happy to say I now have his number, so I'll be texting his ass all the time. But I had so much fun talking to Karamo. Such a rich conversation.

And of course, I had more thoughts that I wanted to chew on with others.

And who better than with my Lovers community? So let's bring them in.

And let's talk about it. I thought we would actually do this one a little bit different. So I want to open the floor up to your reflections and then I want to do a guided activity with everyone here. So if you have a pen and paper handy, great. Uh, if not, get your iPhone out if you're not on it and then just have your notes open. But before we jump into that, does anybody have some immediate reactions from the episode that they really want to talk about?

I have been actually discussing this topic with people in the past week about intimacy, uh, being more of a curiosity, uh, than it is about this like deep knowing and how cool it is to be in relation with people, whether it's friends or roommates or lovers over years, and then still having this window where you're learning things about them. I felt very validated in my experience with my husband, and thankfully we were able to start that communication. But like you said, it was absolutely terrifying and lots of bumps in the road.

The confidence that he has in his 40s, it kind of reminded me about the conversation with Lena too, because they both were talking about how, like, with their age, their confidence grew, but then also it, like, took away their fear of being able to ask for what they wanted. I still have a couple years from 40, but I'm like, okay, I'm I'm getting there. I'm seeing the patterns he was talking about at 30, but then in his 40s, just being able to ask for what he wanted and was comfortable enough to know that if someone wasn't going to receive what he wanted in the way that he was hoping, then it was okay to like let that person go.

And that's such a powerful reflection. It is having the tools to sort of navigate these hard change, but then also having the courage to know when on the other side of those changes, to walk away from what you know no longer serves you or no longer suits you. In reflection of listening to this episode again, the word that I wish that I questioned more is the word change. The idea that anyone can just change at any second, or people drastically change, I think can be very daunting. But instead, if we see it as growth, it's an— it's building off what we already know about them and evolving into not a different, but perhaps a more grown, a more mature version of themselves. So the activity that I wanted to do with all of you is one that I actually did in my class in MasterClass. And so much of what we talk about on the podcast is in hindsight. I would love for it to be for people who haven't gone through that yet is an opportunity to start having the kinds of conversations that that person wished that they had back then. So the activity that I want to propose is is something that's called then, now, and next. If you're partnered, think about your current romantic relationship. If you're not partnered, just reflect on this in terms of seasons of your life. So whether you determine that season based on age, like back in my 20s or back in my last relationship, in the very beginning, back then, what did you love about your sex life? Like, what was the magic to you? So going over to the now category, what is the thing that you have right now? And then with your next, I want you to look and reflect on these two different pieces, maybe take a little bit from each, and then imagine as you think of your own growth trajectory where you might go in the future and try to weave that together.

You can find this resource on the Lovers by Shan website.

All right, I'll go first, and if anybody else feels inspired to go next, I would love to hear yours. So when it comes to my sex life, I wrote Mike Epps' comedy special. And that to me is such a perfect encapsulation of what Jared and I shared when we first started having sex, because we went to watch Mike Epps' special on Netflix. And when you think about erotic inspirational content, I bet that doesn't hit your top 500. And yet somehow, like, we couldn't make it into 2 minutes of this thing. Like, there— it didn't matter what we were doing, where we were doing it. It just— there was something so undeniable, so visceral, so animalistic between us that we just were like magnets together. I think what I really love about now too is finding the new in the known. There's something even more satisfying about that, where yesterday we were doing— I had a sexual position and my feet were in the air, and then I started like massaging his head with my toes. I was like, I didn't know I could do this. I didn't know that you were gonna like this. Like That's cool to me. Like, and I love that. I love like watching my partner's expression and feeling like I know what they're going to look like and then seeing something different. So that's really exciting. And then next I wrote seeing my partner's undeniable skill and energy and openness through the eyes of other people.

My current lover, who I've been in lovership with for years, it was a lot of discovery and like, first time I'd done roleplay and like dancing for somebody and like all these different things. It was also very important to me to be exclusive at that time. And now the quality of our, our sex, I would say, is the most important, more than the frequency, which is what I think it was before. And I haven't explored like the touch of his body, like, like his skin and his But, and like, because I feel like men sometimes stray away from that and they, you, or you don't, they don't ask for that and you don't think they need that. And I've noticed that whether he's asking for it or not, when I start to include those things and I hear the way his body's responding, I'm like, oh, you like this. Like whether you ask for it or not, like you really enjoy this. So I want to explore more touch that hasn't been asked for of me. And next, I'm excited to get even better with my vocalization. I think this is the most confident that I've ever been in my life, just as a woman, in my body, in my career and everything. And I noticed that the more confident I get, which is related to this episode too, I am confident in asking for things that I want and saying what I like.

Christina, that was so beautiful and really inspiring for me too, because I loved that you're now had like seeds of your next, but your next was about your romantic partner in your, in your now, but your next was really all about you, um, when you switched over, because I think that that's the only thing that you can really control. So I loved that. And it was a good— I'm actually going to go back and update my next based on what you just said and how clearly you laid it out. So thank you for that.

Mine was all about role play. Like I saw role play in movies or television shows, or heard people talk about it, and I was like, but I can never do that. I can't request roleplay as a dude. Like, that just sounds too weird. And then now I would say, like, I've had more recently one of the most liberating sexual partners I've ever had in my life. That opened it all the way up for me. Like, that— she basically told me, like, I could do— I can not only request it, but like, once it's on, like, we can do whatever we want to do. There's no one in the back, like, recording me, gonna put me on blast on YouTube later. Like, there's no one watching that's gonna embarrass me later. Like, you can just do this thing. And with that came so much confidence.

I'm guessing that everybody's silence and polite smiles means that this part of our conversation is done, meaning the recorded part where you all get to listen. So we're gonna say goodbye to them. You guys be on pause. I'm gonna come right back to you in a second. But for everybody else, if you are interested in being part of conversations like these, doing one-on-one sessions with me, getting to talk about intimacy in a really rich, nuanced, and collective way, please go to loversbyshan.com/community. And we can't wait to join you and get to know you on a first-name basis next week. For everybody else, we'll still talk next week here on Lovers.