A Conversation with Deborah Perlman | S03E11

Hey, I have a quick announcement before we get started. So many of my clients start how to CEO because they have issues on the team and they can't figure out, okay, is this a me thing or them thing? Am I the problem or are they the problem? In order to address that, I'm doing a five day course live called the Team Audit. It's hosted in a couple of weeks in May. You need to register, go to chrisplacky.com audit and we're going to get to the bottom of it. Every day. I'm going to teach you exactly what you need to do to determine are they the problem or am I the problem? And then what do I do about it once I know the answer. Chrisplacky.com audit sign up now. It's going to be amazing. It'll be fun, and mostly it'll answer that very pressing question that I know you have. Now back to our regular programming. Welcome to season three of the Leadership Is Feminine podcast. I'm Chris Plackey and I'm so happy that you're here. In this season, we're doing something different. One of the things that I believe to be true is that there is so much unsourced, beautiful wisdom in the everyday person. I really like to talk about what I call obscure wisdom. That means these are things that people know that unless we meet them at a cocktail party or at a barbecue or sitting next to them, you know, on a train, we don't hear about it. And these aren't celebrities. These aren't people who've written, you know, best selling books yet. These aren't people that are on the circuit that everybody else is learning from. These are everyday women who are CEOs, building, dealing with, working through all the pieces and parts of running a company. And I want to bring my beautiful clients and their wisdom to your ears because I know that you'll find it to be validating and insightful and hopefully also some fun. So without further ado, let's get started with this week's amazing personal client and guest on Leadership Is Feminine. Hello, everybody. Welcome. Welcome to this episode of the podcast, Leadership is Feminine. I'm Chris Plackey, your host, and I'm so excited to have Deborah Pearlman here. Deborah is a client. We've been working together for a year.

Yes, just about a year.

Almost a year. So fun. So, Deborah, why don't you tell everyone quickly who you are and not quickly. I don't know why I inserted quickly. Doesn't have to be quickly. Let's Just be clear.

That was erroneous direction. Don't follow that. Why don't you help everybody know who you are and what you do in the world and all the things. We'll go from there.

Sure. I am Deborah and I am the CEO of Cocuspocus. And Cocuspocus is a retail brand. It's a lifestyle brand with home decor, apparel, accessories, and everything in between.

Fabulous. Yes. And if you all are looking for really fun and different and clever, that's one of the things that I would say most about Debra and my work with her is you're very clever. You just have a really clever personality and you come up with really interesting things. So her website's really super fun. It's FocusPocus.com, right? Is that right? Yes. Go check that out. So you've just had a few kind of fun wins too, in your business. You want to talk about what those are?

I have, yeah. I think every year I've had a big moment. And so last year I had an item in the FabFitFun subscription box, so. In a really cute and cheeky checkered baseball cap. And that went out all over the country. And the latest big moment was a segment on the Today show. So. So we have these bathrobes that I just wrote funny memes on the back. You know, like when you're up in the morning and you don't want to talk to anybody and you're pouring your coffee, you can just like, you know, say it with your bathrobe. Everything.

Just point.

Yeah. Read my back. I don't want to talk to you. I love it. That's awesome. And how long have you had Cocuspocus? Where are you in that?

Well, where am I? So this is fun because my background is in the beauty industry and I. I worked in factories for a long time, and then I helped other brands get started. And then I thought, oh, I'll do something for myself. But I couldn't do it in beauty at the time, so I just thought, I will just do everything else, which everyone told me was not a good idea. That you're supposed to be very, like, focused and have a niche. And that's not how my brain works. My brain works in colors and layers and concepts and confetti is.

Well. And for anyone who's just listening and not watching this video, which will you will have access to on YouTube, you'll see, like, her background will make perfect sense. Right. We're looking at all shades of purple, pink, red, orange, yellow, blue, green, yes, yes.

We have the whole. It's my Pantone life.

And I wore a matching sweater just for you.

Okay, Chris, I forgot the question.

How long is Coca's focus? Oh, yes.

Four years. Four years, yes. So I started it actually just. I thought, I'll just do everything. And then. And I started it just as a website and I didn't even have a company open, and there was just something on the side and they knew that I could just do that. And then I got my first big order and I had to open an llc. And I had done this for other people many times, and it was the first time doing it for myself. And I remember just, like, being excited to fill out my insurance documents and all those things, but.

Now those aren't as exciting.

Well, the new things are exciting, but I just remember the first time, like, I'm signing my name and I'm not taking this to. I'm not filling everything out and taking it to a boss to sign. Big moments, those were the wins in the early days was just getting it started and knowing that it was mine. And. And I should. Yeah. I should mention that I had tried many other ideas and most of them with partners. And for some reason there was just always, like a friction or an imbalance and, you know, motivation. And this was the first time that I just said, I'm just going to do this on my own. It's going to be all me. And if I want to take someone in later, I will. But this is my. As Chris Plackey tells us, this is my queendom.

This is your queendom. And business partnerships, we need to be so. Right. Like, I think business partnerships require more scrutiny than marriage.

Well, it's like a marriage you can't get out of in many situations.

Yeah. It's so messy to get out of.

Yeah. And unless you want to walk away with nothing, which is always an option. But.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's a.

I mean, I'm. I often meet people on the other end of that. Right. When they're trying to negotiate where all the challenges are. We're actually going to do a how to copy CEO. We're going to put something together for people who are doing this work together, because people need that. You really need the language of it. But I highly advise anybody contemplating a partnership to be really, really like. I always. My standard advice is you get a lawyer, they get a lawyer, and the business gets a lawyer.

That's great advice.

Yeah. So nobody. Everybody's interests are handled, and then those three people work it out. Instead of the lawyer that you have also takes care of the business, and then the other business partner has their own lawyer and. Right. Like, we know how that goes.

Or that's a great filter right there. Because you have to be really serious to go and hire three lawyers.

Yeah, that's legit. Yeah. Even if it's just out of your garage right now.

I get it.

Yeah. So I'm kind of curious about. Cause you know, I have so much respect for. And I'm so inspired by so many different types of entrepreneurs. It's always so fun, right. So many different ways that people make money. But it is sort of this audacious thing. Right? Like, oh, yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm going to sell these products and I'm going to make money. What do you think it was when you first decided four years ago, I'm going to do this?

Doesn't it seem like it's kind of audacious? Like, I think it's true for all of us. Like, huh. What makes you think you can do that?

It was a combination of. I had done it for other people. I knew I could do it. And it was a mentor I had in another area of my life. He said, you know, you might want to think about, like, how you talk about yourself and your ability to make money for other people. You might want to look into that and see if you want to just do it for you.

And that sort of planted a seed. And then I thought, okay, yes, I do know how to do this. And when I. And in my jobs, when I was working as an employee, I was so all in. And I know if I go all in on myself or on a project I want to do.

Yeah.

If in the end I can't do it, it just. It wasn't doable. It just wasn't.

Because if I can't do it, listen to me. Yes. No, but that's true. Right. Like the one person, you know, you can rely on the most. I remember when I was first starting my business, I was doing master coach training and I was getting coached because I had. I had been building my own business for.

Almost a year for. And it wasn't going very well. Right. Like, I just wasn't getting a lot of traction. I'd had a couple clients, but nothing major. And the thing that I kept telling myself was that it's irresponsible. I'm being irresponsible for pursuing my dream. Like, it's an irresponsibility. I have three young kids. I have a Mortgage, like this is irresponsible. And I remember Brooke, who was my master coach teacher at the time, she said, I don't think there's anything more responsible than being self employed. Like you are absolutely saying, I'm completely in charge of this. It's total responsibility. And I'll never forget it because I had been sort of, I think we all, a lot of us have that corporate or I'll be an employee mindset. And we think that's somehow more responsible than being an entrepreneur. When really like you said, listen, if someone's going to make this work, I'm going to put my money on me. Yeah, I love that. That's awesome.

And now I look at some of my friends who. And I was a director level in a beauty company. I look at, I'm in, I'm in Portland, Oregon. We have a lot of shoe people here like Nike and Adidas.

And I just bought my Portland leather backpack.

Oh, I love that shop. I have a dream to open a store on the same street as them.

There you go.

I look at these people in these high level positions and it looks like a golden cage to me now. And I'm like, it looks great and it's great. And you're moving forward and there's always just like something else dangling out there that keeps people in those positions until they retire and then they never live that dream. I just, I wouldn't want to miss out on that.

No. And you're not. So that's not.

I had something else too, like in that transition of like, am I really going to do this? Am I really going to be self employed? And he was a family friend and he's a financial advisor and I went to him, I would say, just for. And we had a long talk about everything. And then I think he was giving me a tour of his office and I just mentioned I have this order coming up and maybe I need to take on a partner. And he was like, bankroll yourself. And I was like, I can do that.

I took money out of a mutual fund and I put it into my business. And I was like, are you sure? Like, I thought I was supposed to leave it there and not touch it. And he's like, I would. He's just like, I would bet on you. Well, I would too. So now there's two of us.

So it's clearly a path forward. That's how we're going to do this. Yeah, but it's true, right? Like if you're willing to make that kind of. It's Risk. It's all risk.

Yeah.

But it's a lot of fun. So what would you say? Because now you've been this entrepreneur for four years, and you have kind of another part of the work in the world that you do as well. Right. In international trade.

Right? Yes.

What have you found to be the biggest stumbling.

There's the tactical stuff that I know is hard, but from a more strategic kind of leadership perspective, what has been the biggest stumbling block for you that you've had to work through, do you think?

How. There's been a lot. I mean, you know, you've been coaching me for a year.

There have been stumbling blocks with. And this is crazy, because I can say all of these hard things that happen, like, I had orders canceled. I had problems with shipments. I. I mean, I hired staff and they would leave, and I got coached with Chris all the way through this and all through that stuff. I look back and I4X my business during that year that I was coming to the calls and spilling the tea.

Wondering, is today the day I quit? I'm just curious.

And Chris gave me permission to quit. She's like, you might want to quit. That's fine. You can quit. I'm like, oh, no, I'm not going to quit now.

That's good to know. That's good incentive for you. Go ahead.

Yeah.

You can send all of your excess merchandise down to me. I'll take it a lot. I should be careful, right? Yeah. Because I think, you know, the thing about the team part. Right. Is. Which is, of course, what we focus so much on. And all of these business operation, business model, how to deliver results. And, you know, you, like so many of my other clients, have beliefs about how it should look. Right. And once you realize, oh, maybe I don't have to think about it that way. Maybe it doesn't have to be that way. Maybe it could be different. And maybe it being hard or difficult or crazy frustrating isn't a stop sign. It's just like, okay, well, let's get more clever. Let's think about this differently. What else is available to me that I haven't considered? Right.

Oh, you know, one of our topics that I've asked for so much coaching on is Facebook ads, Right? Yeah.

If anybody listening to this who knows me like, is like, oh, that's funny. Chris Blackey's coaching you on Facebook.

But I mean, to learn how to hire a marketing company and do all this stuff, and I finally had the epiphany about the Facebook ads, which is. Which is I am Always. I think I've hired four different agencies and a couple of freelancers, and I've. I'm. Now, no one is currently hired, but in all of these meetings, conversations, presentations, they're all. There are all these statistics. 93% of this and 95% of that. And I listened really hard, and I. I believed really hard in the 93 and in the 95. And then I realized when there's a 93, there's like another seven and I'm over there. And when there's a 95, there's another five, and I'm over there. And I just have to listen to myself on some of the stuff, and I do it. The. The business is at a point where so much of it is still me and coming from my brain. And I'm pretty sure the next Facebook ads campaign, I mean, it'll be written by me, and I think it will pop the top off this topic.

Well, it's.

Right. It is.

You know, that's one of the. I was just having this conversation with Michelle today in our team meeting that, you know, that growth of you being all of the elements here, from strategy and tactics to then strategy. And you hire for tactics. Right. And then you hire for strategy. That's kind of how it works. And so there's a lot of failure through that process. And that's, I think, what is ultimately so frustrating, because as entrepreneurs, we don't have a tremendous amount of patience. Right.

My patience is expired.

Expired.

It's over. It's. It's way past. It's. It's. It's by use, by date. Is that true? Yeah.

I mean, I do have to just throw in here that when there is something expired in the fridge, I just tell everyone, like, it's just a suggestion.

It doesn't mean we have to throw it out. Sniff test. Right.

Do not sniff test. Sour cream.

Or milk. But you probably don't have this in.

Your fridge, so that's dairy. Thank you for the tip.

That's fine. Because the other ones last a lot longer anyway. Anyway, we're off topic, but it's like, what are we talking about? Oh, there's so much failure. Right. You have to go through this dance with failure to arrive at things. And sometimes it ultimately means, okay, I have to really get this clear. Because I think every time we make a hire, that doesn't really work out. Sure. There's people who don't tell. Who are not honest with us. They don't tell us things that we probably should hear. But we also. I Think are so eager to be helped that we don't pursue a lot of answers as well. Because it's so like, okay, so it's here. It's going to save me a little bit. You just get better and better and better at the questions you ask.

And I think dialing in the job descriptions, that was just. That was the biggest key to unlocking how to get help.

Yeah.

And in this world where a lot of company I hear, you know, on our calls, it's hard to hire people, especially, you know, food and beverage people. Those in person jobs are hard to hire.

Yeah.

And I feel really lucky that I have people who want to be a part of this. They want to be here, and they believe in me, and they believe in what I'm doing, and they're excited to learn. So that's been amazing. Got some bad hires, though. Did have some people.

Lots of bad hires. Listen, right. Like, I was just talking with someone today, and she was. She's reading Ready, Aim, Fire, I think is the name of the book. And in that book, he says that 50% of your hires won't work out.

That sounds like something Brooke Castillo would say. 50. 50.

50. 50. Isn't that interesting? She might have said it.

She might have said. I might have mentally argued with her on that topic. Like, four months.

Plenty of people want to argue. Yeah.

But I gave in.

Might as well just. It does make you feel better, but. Right. Like, 50% of the people you hire aren't gonna work out. So what does that mean? That means that. Stop arguing with 50.

Are you.

Exactly. 50 will, 50 won't. So keep hiring.

Yeah.

Instead of arguing that you have to keep hiring.

Yeah. That was something I accepted after I mentally argued with you about it. And a lot of us in the program have become friends. Offline.

Yes.

And so we do all talk like we're going to be hiring people forever, and that's going to look like people in our companies, and that's going to look like if we need someone to do some type of home repair, that's. That's all hiring. And we're doing this for the rest of our lives. And then when you accept that, you're like, oh, I'm just always hiring. I'm just hiring always.

And there's lots of people available to help me, and whatever it is, I want to do, too. I really love to believe that because I really do believe it's true. The only time I ever struggle with tapping into people that are the right people is when I'm not clear about what I'm looking for. That's it.

That's true.

Right. Elizabeth Purvis, who's in the program, you probably met her.

She's from Portland too. Yeah. She came to my last have these celebrations for myself when I think milestones. So she came, I met her for the first time.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, she came to a little party.

I love that. That makes me so happy that you guys gather outside of your time here. We're going to do a client appreciation gather. Were you on that call?

I think so.

Yeah. Look, for that we're going to have to save the date. Come out. Going to come to my hometown.

Fun.

Yeah, right? Totally hosted day. Let's do it. Which won't be a big deal for you because you're just a hop, skip and a jump.

I can just pop down for the day.

See? So fun. But one of the things that she said when I did this podcast interview with her, she said, I know that as soon as I have imagined and gotten super clear about who this person is, I know that they're there. Yeah, but that's the work. That's our work. Right. And that's where a lot of us, we just want someone to come in and do it without really cultivating it. And even you said the job description, which, listen, there's nothing sexy about a job description. It's excruciating for a lot of people to write them. But then, then you have one. You have one. And you tend to find people better that way. Yeah. You find the better people that way who are better suited for what you're looking for. Okay, I have another question. This is something I've been asking a lot of the clients that I've been talking to. There's a lot of things about being a CEO that nobody talks about.

Right. That you're running this business. And I'm kind of curious what you think some of those things are.

Oh, that we don't talk about. But it's hard now because we all talk about all the things in the, in our calls and offline. The stuff nobody talks about in a product based business. What we don't talk about is how many boxes I carry and how many.

Times.

We'Ve been working out with storage units and calling friends and family to come, you know, iron pack, I'll pay you in pizza.

Like, yeah, there's like a grubby. Yeah, grubby part of it. Yeah.

Yeah. But I, I have a lot of energy and I like to move, so that suits me really well. So I'M happy that there is a physical component to my business. I wouldn't be able to just sit on zoom calls all day long.

And then I think.

Probably my biggest struggle as a CEO is turning my brain off and switching roles. We've definitely talked about this, and I have three young kids, and Chris just told me, just change your clothes. Do you remember this?

Yes.

And it totally worked. She's like, you're going from CEO mode to mom mode, and you don't have time. You're just gonna have to change your outfit. And that's really. That's worked for me.

I love that that worked for you. I actually just wrote an article about how we can take better care of ourselves with intention. You know, one of them is, is, this is my belief. This is not, you know, a firm fact. But I. I really am getting to the point where I think the best thing is that the business has a social media account, but the human doesn't.

Right.

Especially if you're an empath because you pick up so much. And of course, right now, it's overwhelming. But that was another one, is because I'm the same. Well, you have an office that you go to. I work in my office in my home. And then I walk across the hall to go to my family room and my kitchen. And changing my clothes has been a huge part of just that ceremonial, like, okay, I'm taking off the day. I actually know some people who go through the whole process. They wash their face. They do a whole press. I'm done. I'm taking off my makeup. I'm done. Right. But, yeah, I love that you. I love that you do that.

I do. And then my friends are like, oh, I love your mom clothes.

What does that mean?

Listen, you probably look nice and comfy. Mom clothes. I don't know. I'm assuming there's a sweatshirt involved, maybe.

Yeah.

Very cute sweatshirt From Coco.

I wish. My daughter has started to steal my stuff, and it's huge on her, but she doesn't care. It's been disappearing.

Yes. Welcome.

That's the rest of your life as far as. At least for me, that's. I have a daughter. Every now and then. Like, that looks familiar. That's cute. Where'd you get that? Okay, so I think that's a great. The grubbiness of the other side. Right. It's been interesting to hear what other people say in terms of sort of the secret of It's. You know, I've been equating it to, like, people talk all the time about Getting pregnant and how great it is to have baby. But then there's like all these things that happen when you're pregnant. You're like, yeah, seriously, nobody was going to tell me this part. I didn't know about this part. So I think I have a girlfriend.

Who was like, listen, I just had a baby. And let me tell you what's not in the book.

I had that girlfriend.

We need, we all need those friends. Right. Like here, this happens. It's not, it's not weird. It's normal. Just nobody.

I hope that we are those girlfriends for the people listening or like, yes, listen. What's happening?

Yeah. Well, you know what I think is super cool, shameless plug for how to CEO Lab. But I will say it. It's just I. Everybody's really.

Cool. Down to earth.

Yeah.

Authentic, right?

Yeah.

You know, I'm in different, I've been in different environments where everybody feels like they have to be really like dolled up and like ready. And I think people, the goal for everybody, at least in my experience, is people just want to be there. They show up regardless. Yeah. And I love that. I love the realness of people.

I've been really fortunate to be in different communities and groups at different times. And you know, sometimes there's that feeling of like, we're all supposed to be here. I think I was in the last round where it was live.

Classes for the, for the beginning. Like, of course I was in the last round. That's usually where I land right on time.

Maybe a few minutes early.

It's been a great group. Yeah. Of like minded women. And I'm not sure if I told you this, but I went to a real estate conference because I do some other transactions in another company I own and I wanted to learn more about real estate and I went and there was so much value in this three days. So much. And then they wanted to bring people on for more and I was so turned off by it. And that's when I realized, oh, like I already have my people.

I already have my people.

Oh, I already have them. And they're in the how to CEO lab. And that's when I signed up to go to the Hawaii retreat.

So excited.

Like, oh, my people are not there. They're in, they're in Hawaii.

They're going to Hawaii.

That's a nice thing to say. Why did you decide to go to Hawaii? Like, what was it?

It was literally that weekend where I was like, these are not my people. I already found my people. This, there was, this was really Interesting. And there was a lot of information here, but these are not my people.

Yeah. Interesting. Well, I'm so excited that you're coming. I do my first March one next week.

Jealous.

I know. So excited.

Yeah.

I'll be in Hawaii for two weeks.

It's tough.

It is a little rough. I know. I was in the Berkshires last week. Listen to me. I was in the Berkshires last week.

Now, do you remember when you were having drama about, should I go work for myself?

Yeah. But there's so much value, Right? Like, you know, when I started my business in 2012, I did my first retreat in Hawaii. And I've wanted to do this forever. Right. And for 10. Well, I would say eight and a half of the 10 years. It's been very difficult to do the retreats, to fill them.

Eight and a half years, people.

Eight and a half years. And I just kept doing it every year, and now I'm gonna do four this year, and they're sold out.

Amazing.

You have to just believe. And the vision and the dream of my heart was just so compelling. That was never gonna end for me. Like, I was just like, listen, if two people come, I'm still going, because those are the two people that need to be there.

Yeah.

And I drew. I really do believe that. And I think that's true for everything that we do. We have to change our model. We have to change our ask. We have to change maybe the people that help us. There's things we can do to always, but we don't give up on the goal. Right.

Telling me that sometimes I come to a call and I'm just like, could you just tell me to keep going?

Just remind me, I want to be here.

Can someone tell me to continue, Help.

Me with my brain a little bit? Yeah. And that's one of the truths I tell. I know. And that, I think, is a truth that nobody talks about in some circles, is that people who are running $500,000 businesses all the way to $500 million businesses, I would bet at least once a week, question whether or not they should keep doing.

Never ends. I have yet to meet the woman who's making hundreds of millions of dollars, who doesn't still think, I don't know. I wonder what I could get for it.

At least every now and then. And so there's this belief, though, that some. That you arrive at a revenue number or a success level that you don't do that. And it's the. That is a lie. Right.

We. We did some thoughtwork about what I really want in this. And remember, we came to the conclusion that I want to be limitless.

Yes.

And then I realized, okay, well, if I want to be limitless, then I'm going to be doing the thought work forever.

Yes, you are.

Yeah.

You're going to have. For as long as you're alive, your brain is going to be making thoughts.

Yeah. I'm doing it for the rest of my life.

So. Yeah. Yeah. And some days it's easier to hear your own thinking than others. And some days those thoughts are so heavy and hard that we just left. Like, for me, I always know if today's kind of a harder thought day. Like, I almost. There are days where I don't even give them a lot of attention. I just know that they're there. And I know that tomorrow I will sort of have gone through the cycle and it'll be okay. Like, let them. Let's sit with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then move along. So I love that. It's great wisdom. Yes. As we kind of pull this together and wrap up, I am sort of curious. You are lovely and so intelligent. You have created quite a world for yourself. So I'm curious what your wisdom is that you would share with women listening who are running their own businesses.

If you have that idea, if you have that little inclination to do something, you need to listen to it. You need to follow it. I think there's something. I'm 41 and I don't remember who told me this, but right around that age, if you don't listen to what that little voice of what you want to do, it comes back to you a decade later, shouting. So I listened, and it's not the easiest path, but really rewarding, really fulfilling. And I have a lot more time to do other things I want to do and show up for other people in my life. There's this image that someone with this type of job and family is super busy. And that's not true. I'm super productive, but I'm not that busy. So if a friend needs help moving or someone to hold a hand one day, I get to show up. I get to do that. And those friends are always surprised. They're like Deborah with the two companies and the three kids. Why are you carrying boxes? I pack boxes faster than anybody I know, so I'm here for you.

That's so lovely.

And one other thing about being in a position to be limitless and generate revenue is I know some of my friends have a hard time wrapping their minds around that. And we don't talk about money that much in this program. But.

Instead of asking those friends who are starting their businesses, how much money do you want to make? I started to ask them, how much money do you want to give away? And then everybody gets this, like. Oh, like this moment of like, okay, like, that's a totally different place.

Yeah, it is.

Empathic CEOs.

Yeah.

Keep that. If we can hold. Hold that thought, too. It becomes like, an entirely different mission.

Total service.

Yeah.

I love that. I love that you said, I'm productive. I'm not busy. Yeah, I love that. That is. That was like a gem. So if you're listening, think about that, because there's a lot of busy that you can get in that you can indulge. Right.

Unknowingly, sort of get lost in it. So very good. Well, thank you for being here today.

Thank you.

People find you and Cocus pocus and.

All the things you can find. Cocuspocus, and it's with a C C O C U S P o c u s.com and the Instagram handle is the same. It's Cocuspocus. And you can find me. I am Deborah Perlman. D E B O R A H P E R L M A N. That's my Instagram handle. And you can come see what's going on in my life as well. It's pretty wild.

She does cute, fun, Instagram posty things with bathrobes and feathers and dances to music.

Yes, there's some. There's. There might be a TikTok challenge or two in there.

This is the difference between 52 and 41.

Oh, Chris, now we're doing it.

No, I'm not doing.

When we come for a client appreciation.

Day, we'll make a tick tock. I will do that. I will do that.

Everyone in one.

Let's get it. Listen, you can organize. You would be in charge. I'm in. I'll just say what I'm told. Totally.

Just give me 15 minutes.

All right, well, the links to contact and connect with you will be in the show notes, everyone. Thank you for listening and thank you so much, Deb, for being here. It's just been an honor.

Thank you for having me, Chris.

Of course.