A Conversation with Evelyn Hsu | S03E04

Welcome to season three of the Leadership is Feminine podcast. I'm Chris Plackey and I'm so happy that you're here. In this season, we're doing something different. One of the things that I believe to be true is that there is so much unsourced, beautiful wisdom in the everyday person. I really like to talk about what I call obscure wisdom. That means these are things that people know that unless we meet them at a cocktail party or at a barbecue or sitting next to them, you know, on a train, we don't hear about it. And these aren't celebrities. These aren't people who've written, you know, best selling books yet. These aren't people that are on the circuit that everybody else is learning from. These are everyday women who are CEOs, building, dealing with, working through all the pieces and parts of running a company. And I want to bring my beautiful clients and their wisdom to your ears because I know that you'll find it to be validating and insightful and hopefully also some fun. So without further ado, let's get started with this week's amazing personal client and guest on Leadership is Feminine. Welcome to the podcast today. I'm Chris Blackie. Thank you for joining us here on Leadership is Feminine. I'm really excited to have another one of my amazing clients, Dr. Hevlin sue, who's here to talk about being a leader. I think we'll talk about all the things as it relates to being a leader, being in medicine, being a woman.

All the bits and pieces. But Evelyn, you and I have been working together, what, a little over six or seven months?

I think so. Although we first met, I think at the beginning of the pandemic. I remember that when I saw your. I think I saw you through the life coach school, but then also just looked at the work that you were doing and you did this leading through crazy session and I was like, yes, that's what I'm doing.

Yes, you were. Man, you're in Seattle. Like, you guys were the, you were at the heart of COVID before the COVID hit. Really?

That's right.

Washington was really on the front end of that. So before we get too deep into all ready just chatting, because that's what I love to do with you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and start there.

Sure. So I am by trade. So the work that I do is I'm a pediatric transplant hepatologist, meaning I take care of children who have liver diseases and Usually before and after their liver transplants. I lead a group of pediatric gastroenterologists and hepatologists at the University of Washington and Seattle Children's Hospital. Meaning I help a group of people who are really at heart trying to improve the lives of children who have gastrointestinal and liver diseases. So I'm an academic physician.

Okay. How did you get interested in that?

Oh, my goodness. I think I grew up. I'm from Wisconsin originally, so I grew up in the middle of Wisconsin and a land full of lakes, thinking that I wanted to be a marine biologist. I'm not sure where that came from, but I definitely love science as a kid. I realized as I went to college, I was like, oh, there aren't really any oceans next to me. I'm here. And I was on Lake Mendota. University of Wisconsin, did lake biology, which is called limnology, and was always interested in science and medicine and ended up going to medical school. I had been in a program that was a combined program. When I was in medical school. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Kind of was a little bit like, really liked the practical aspect of things, you know, the technical, how things work, how the body works, how to fix things, but also really liked the relationships of what it was to take care of somebody within who is an organism within a greater organism. The parents caring for the whole family, really, and complexity of illness. So I settled on, I think it was between otolaryngology, which is ENT surgery, and pediatrics, and I decided on pediatrics. Then when I went to residency at Seattle Children's Hospital and University of Washington in the early 2000s, really found amazing mentors in the field of gastroenterology. It was, you go to different places and you're like, are these my people? Are these my people? Are these my people? And when I settled in GI and hepatology, I was like, these are definitely my people. And it just took off from there. I went to Philadelphia and somehow ended up on really liking the liver transplant, transplant aspect of things. I love transplant. I love the miracle of transplant. And came back here to do that, which I've been doing for the last 10 years.

Wow. Okay. So I don't think I've ever asked you this. How much practicing do you do still.

With medicine right now? I would say roughly a little bit. Over half of my time is still in the treatment and care of patients.

Do you do surgery or.

I don't, actually, because as a proceduralist, we do the GI side of things. So I don't do liver transplant surgery. We take care of the medical side and help the team make those medical decisions. And I do procedures within gi, so endoscopy, colonoscopy, liver biopsies, things like that. Just a little bit over half of my time, and then the rest of the time is administrative, scholarly research, teaching.

Okay, so what was it about your growth and development in your space that really drew you to more of a leadership role?

I do feel like leadership found me. It wasn't that I found leadership. People would be like, naturally, when I was doing things, when I was caring for kids, I'd be like, this needs to change. This needs to change. For this to be better, you know, X things need to change. This process needs to change so that we can assure that every child gets the, you know, the equal chance to the best care. And in order to do that, you can't just, like, have your head down doing, you know, doing your work, which is really valuable work, but kind of. I really enjoy the big picture. I really enjoy moving the needle forward on policies, on changes, on, you know, and I think I'm at heart, an activist that I really love to work for. Things like that are bigger than me, and I think that's how I went into leadership, because you can't get things done without understanding how the whole organism works. And then when people realize that you understand how the whole organism works, they really want to put you in charge. Which, of course, like, I would, like, run screaming from being in charge because of, like, certain maladaptive habits that I had developed.

But ultimately it found me.

Right, right. Well, when you have the ideas and you see the opportunities and the innovation, people are like, yes, I will follow that. I will follow you. Thank you for going in front. And most of the women who are in how to CEO, I would say 99% of them are entrepreneurs. You're an intrapreneur, and I sort of do that by. By we let people in to how to CEO. How do I say this? I'm trying to be delicate. Right. When we recognize those characteristics in our clients. Right. Because there is a significant difference between leading in a company and leading your own company. However, the mindset of an entrepreneur is the same. So I used to work inside a company the whole. My whole career, but I was always doing what you were saying. Right. I was always trying to figure out, no, that doesn't work. How do we make that better? And then I would create something, and then. Right. So we used to talk about being very intrapreneurial. And so the mindset of an intrapreneur, to me, is similar to that of an entrepreneur. You see what needs to be done. You have the vision for it. You take steps to make it happen, and then people are attracted to that. Right. People say, oh, Evelyn knows what she's doing. Let's go over here. Let's put her in charge of that project. That. Right. It starts slow. Until now. You're the head of a division. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. That happened.

Yeah. And that's. But that's a Not. That's an innate element about who you are. Sure. Could not be learned. I'm sure. But because of that, you know that. That's why this work, I think, that you do with us is such a great fit. I don't think you would honestly thrive as much in an environment where everybody was sort of heads of their space, because not everybody really thinks the same way, even though they're in charge. Right.

I love that word, intrapreneur. I didn't think I'd heard of that before. And I often, like, within your program, I'm like, well, it is the same concepts. All of these things are really important. And I'm just. I feel so lucky to be there.

No, well, you're. You're exactly where you need to be, and we're thrilled to have you there. So. And I can say that, you know, some of the conversations that you and I have had, there's a lot of space in between where a lot of people who work within a big system wouldn't take initiative to address them because it would feel so complex and difficult. That part of who you are is that entrepreneurial, like. No, no. There's got to be a way. I have a vision. I know I can make this happen. I think that speaks volumes for your leadership also, because that takes a lot of risk.

It does. Like, I can't accept things just being bad. I think that's what I've learned, and that's where your program is so helpful, is that accepting the risk to do what's right is something I'm really willing to do.

Wow, that's really well said. I was just talking with some newer clients today and had a CEO program, and we were talking about.

Having that one employee. This woman in particular has an employee who's been with her a very long time, but she's incredibly toxic and difficult and challenging to work with. And she's in an industry where people can kind of take their business with them. And so she's really afraid to address this person's performance and maybe even not have her in her business anymore because of what that might do to her profit, to her revenue. And that's the conversation we've been having is, you know, okay, and you also have a miserable culture. You're miserable. Like, that's a worthwhile risk to do what's right. Exactly. Not just for you as the person running the business, for everyone. But it can be hard because we get stuck in a lot of the weeds of those decisions. And the fear, a lot of fear.

What would you say? And I'm imagining this, maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine as a physician, when you're in that practitioner role, you have a lot of, a lot of authority, a lot of positional authority that you can sort of move things. But then when you, at least for me, when I learned, when I got into a higher level leadership role, I thought, I thought people would do what I asked them to do. But what I realized is I just had more responsibility without a lot of power to make things happen. Right. Other than threats, I suppose. So what has been sort of that biggest challenge? And you're still straddling both parts of the role. Right. But I'm curious what you find to be the most significant challenge in that leadership space.

You know, what's so interesting is that having difficult conversations with patients and families, I could do that all day long, every day. Like, I love, I mean, I love being in the environment. Like the honor, the privilege to take care of patients. Right. Is like they share their space with you. You enter their sacred space to help them make like the most important decisions of their lives. Right. That are so high stakes. And you advise them in those moments. You're exactly right. It's not as enjoyable outside, or at least I haven't learned to make it that enjoyable. Definitely there are moments where days later, weeks later, somebody will come to me and say, that was amazing what you said to me. And it really changed things. And then I'll be like, what was it that I said?

Tell me. Sorry.

So tell me. Just tell me again so that I know. And that's really gratifying. But there are some really difficult conversations to have where people who are used to being the person who is having that difficult conversation, delivering the incredible clinical care, they don't want to hear your input on it because they've been doing their work for so long and have definitely, you know, earn the respect that they, they deserve. But it makes coming to the table really hard. And any environment like academics and in the field of Medicine, like we. We do thrive on challenging each other. We, you know, we move the field forward by challenging each other. So no one's really afraid necessarily of conflict and that knowing how to. When to. When to say something, when to walk away, when to, you know, take a deep breath, when to know, like, this is where we're going. That is a way. It's a completely different skill than what I've been trained for for many decades. Yeah.

But such a valuable one, right? Because.

Such a valuable one because that's where the. How you get things done.

Yeah. And in your world, you know, which is true of every world, like the. The. There's a real lack of that leadership. And so, you know, I'm on such a personal mission because I think the better we all get, the better organizations get, the healthier organizations get, the healthier people's lives are. I mean, I really do believe that there's such an integral string, that thread we can find there.

And for me, the better the care we deliver to children. Of all things. Right. Like, that is the most important thing to me.

That is your end game, Right?

Yeah.

Right. But this was not something you set out to do.

Not at all. No. I think I was mentioning this, like, my maladaptive habits that got me here, Right. Were that I, in general, Fairly likable in general, like, more people would come to me. These are the things that we need to get done. Go to Evelyn. Evelyn will get it done. And that's super maladaptive when you are becoming a leader, because you then are not good at boundaries. You're not good at delegating. You're not good at explaining to someone, giving feedback to appear. You want to please everybody. And that does not serve the group.

No.

And so I knew I needed to get help to do the work that I needed to do to come through for my team.

You've used the word several times. Maladaptive. I'm like, yeah, money right there. First of all, I just love the word. And second of all, it's so. It's so good. It's such a great way, because I say, right, your superpower can kind of become your poison. Like, the thing that has made you so good at this can be the one thing that kind of really derails you over here and not to throw the baby out with bathwater, so to speak. Right. Like, we get to keep that part of who you are. We just have to learn in those moments where you might want to compromise a boundary or you might want to do something to make other People happy instead of really doing what is the best thing for the team. That there are ways to navigate that moment. That.

Yeah.

Will suit you.

Yeah. I think of it as, like, you know, I have a shih Tzu, and she thinks everything. Yeah. She thinks everything is an emergency. Like, literally, she'll be like, you sneeze. And she's like, emergency. Like, is it now time to go crazy? And I think of my maladaptive habits as my, like, my shih tzu peanut. Like, nope, it's not an emergency. No, not the moment right now. I know you think it is.

Yes.

Not the right time.

That's hysterical. I'm.

You know.

Can you see her?

Yeah, I can see she doesn't think.

Anything is an emergency right now, but that's. You know, give her a couple hours. So. But that's so funny. I love my life. Oh, she's only six pounds.

Ours is ten pounds. I love, like, oh, she's so good. Yeah.

Okay, I know we're off topic, but for those of you who are shih tzu lovers, you know what we're talking about. I didn't realize that they were bred to just be with you.

Yeah.

Like.

Like, they're. They're like Tibetan monk right hand.

Just. She just is. She is attached to me.

Yeah.

Wherever I am. And it's my most pleasing delight because.

Mine is attached to my husband.

It's all about who's around the most.

Yeah. She's like, this is my husband. You're only here for a brief amount of time, but that's my husband.

That's funny. I think my husband would say the same thing about her. Rightly tolerates him, but whatever. And they do do that. There's like, they have their person, so you just need to get another one.

I know. That's what I keep telling my husband. Yeah.

And have it be like a hospital dog and you can have it with you.

Oh, yeah. All the time.

I think it's a good idea. I like it. Okay, so when you think about other women who are in leadership roles. Right. That's who listens to this podcast is women who are either running their own businesses or thinking about it or leading and running teams. What is your sort of wisdom nugget that you like to share with people?

Just that you can be afraid of everything and do it, do it anyway. I am. I'm literally afraid of everything.

And I do it anyway. Like, it's.

And there. There's a downside to not listening to it, you know, like, that call. Sometimes I do Stuff, and I'm like, oh, God, I feel like I have to throw up. Like, what am I doing? Like, I could be not doing this. I could be doing something else entirely where I would never feel this. But that's not a real thing to never feel that you would be comfortable all the time. There's discomfort on both sides.

I was just interviewing another client for the podcast, and she said this. I wrote it down.

She said, we've all been sold that happiness is the goal, and that's not the goal. I thought that was such a great. Because I agree. I think a lot of us intentionally avoid things that are uncomfortable because we think we're not supposed to feel it.

Yeah.

But no, it's okay to feel discomfort and say it anyway.

Yeah. And joy is on the other side, right? Like, the hero's journey is through. I'm using my sister's words of like, there's a shit pit that you got to go through. And I know it's ironic because the job that I have as a gastroenterologist, but you got to go through the shit pit to get to the joy on the other side.

Yeah, well, nobody wants to do that part. Right. And more so I think we're getting. That's getting harder and harder to sort of prove to people like, no, listen to me. This difficult employee, this difficult decision, this employee that you love, that quit, this product that isn't selling, this decision that you made that failed miserably, all of that, that is not a sign to quit, to give up, that you're doing it wrong. That's just. As my client just said, data.

Move forward. Take the next one. But what I love about what you've said, Evelyn, is you're like, okay, I see this in me. And I could see how this is going to keep me from being able to thrive in my role. So I'm going to ask for help.

Right. Which a lot of either. I think a lot of women think they're just supposed to be good at this.

Right. The self compassion that is required to say, like, how am I going to be good to myself to be the leader that I want to be? I mean, we are not taught that in medicine. I mean, the looks of scorn you would get like, I'm going to take care of me. And it's not being selfish. It's just saying, I need to care for me so that I can care for. You know, the. The hardest thing to do is to care for other people as your job.

Mm.

And to lead that group means that, like, you just have to always, you know, put that first, because joy is where we all want to be. Joy in our work.

I mean, to me, joy is, I think, a better aspiration than happiness.

Yeah, yeah. Totally different.

Like, yeah, that was really hard. But, man, I'm proud of myself for that.

You have the remnant of the. I keep swearing on your podcast, but the remnant of the shit pit, right, is on you. Yeah, crap pit. I can call it.

Listen, I can call it whatever you want. Anybody's been to one of my coaching calls. We know it's very colorful.

I don't have any problem with any of them. So. Okay, a couple more questions, because I haven't asked you this one. What's the next big goal for you?

I continue to explore. What is the next step above me? Right? Like, what is the next leadership position that's above me? Not because I necessarily want that, but that it helps me understand the context of how things work within this great organism. Right.

So exploration and curiosity about that. But I'm still a little bit. Still in it of, like, learning. My next steps are just like, what's the next thing I have to do? Like, how do I. How do I get all of us online with our vision, our mission, our values? I'm rebuilding this team, you know, and really taking our level of care, you know, to innovate and to teach, to train, you know, the next generation of leaders to provide the most compassionate, collaborative care that is possible for any child out there with GI mental illnesses. Like, that's what I want.

So good. I would come if I knew anything about anything. Like, closest I've got as a kid with celiac disease, Right? So I'm coming. What do we do?

Yeah, I mean, it's.

It.

Right? Like, I have these amazing physicians who work the. WHO I work with who, you know, have developed celiac programs, who are, you know, creating boards and youth boards and people together to kind of. To talk about all of this and to look to the future. How do we make things better? Because it's a little bit of a crisis. You probably have a crisis in health care right now as to, you know, people get here. They work so hard to get here, and they come here and they're like, wait, this isn't what I thought it was. I'm really tired. I'm really sad. I'm really, you know, I don't really like to use the word burnout, but, like, I'm really, you know, stressed. And I. It's my mission to make it so that they can thrive.

Because the biggest tragedy is to lose.

That's massive paradigm shifting work, which, of course, you're up for. And have you met Sunny Smith yet? She's in my. She's in the house.

Yes. I've seen her on the calls. I see her face on that. What she's done is amazing. Yes. Yeah.

So she works exactly in the space. She's a physician, but she's no longer practicing. And she does work with other female positions to really work through a lot of what you've just talked about. And you know what? I love working with paradigm shifting people because, I mean, ultimately, that's what I think so many of us are tasked to do. And it's almost like, I mean, I do not mean this to sound patronizing, but it's like you're building these leadership training wheels right now, this space that you're in where you're cutting your teeth on some of these decisions that are insulated within this space so that bigger decisions can be made in the future. And I just think we're in a huge paradigm shift anyway.

On the planet. And so all of us who have the voices that maybe 10, 20, 50 years ago, no one would have, given the time of day, there's. There's people now who are going to listen to what?

Right. I haven't actually been able to look to the people within my field to find where that model will be of the type of leadership that you talk about on your podcast, the feminine leadership. That is like what I would want to do. My dream is to bring everyone from chaos to calm, and they don't have to compromise their dreams and they don't have to quit their job. You don't have to quit.

They actually be better at it.

Yeah. And, like, it's amazing. There's, there's, there's a lot to be said that is wrong about academic medicine, you know, but there's a lot of amazing intersections that we get to stand at. And if we can just shift that paradigm, shift how we look at it, shift how everyone's looking at it, everyone will benefit.

Yeah, but, you know, it's like vision. That's why we're all kissed with our own unique one. Right. Is.

When you can see something that other people don't see.

You have to model it and demonstrate it and create something tangible for people to believe in it. And that kind of leadership is always the one that is ultimately going to always be the most successful because it's born out of real, organic truth. And the more you speak a truth that other people haven't heard. But no, the more you gain traction. Right. And I've certainly seen that in my work. Like, I've been saying the same thing that I say to you all for 27 years.

Yeah.

When I was first saying it, I was saying it to a bunch of people who thought I was a quack. Right. Or like, whatever. But then you say it enough and you get results and it's like, wait, that's a truth. I believe I just haven't seen it yet. I haven't experienced it yet. But I like the way that you're saying that. And that to me is what I hear you saying. Like, you're speaking a truth. Everybody. Everybody's talking about at a dinner table. They're just not talking about it at work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They recognize the problem. They don't quite see where the solution might be.

Well, and it feels daunting.

Yeah, it does. It's so funny. You know, I saw there's a lot of people who. Whose attention is on physician well being and resilience now, and I think that that's important. However, there is some ele. You know, the. The cartoon that people always will talk about. The analogy of the canary in the coal mine of like, you don't. You just get the canary out of the coal mine. Right. Like, don't give them armor to go into the coal mine. But the thing is, it's still a coal mine. So, like, the armor, you wouldn't send them in there alone. You have to send them in there with a mindset and a paradigm shift and all of those things, those tools that they need to say, like, yeah, it's a coal mine. That's what it is. This is my job right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I can do it. Or not.

Yeah.

Or maybe differently. So.

Yeah.

Everything. Every change is.

I just think we're all being invited as thought leaders in our own unique space, too. And I like that you brought this up at the beginning of the podcast. Right. Like choosing what is right over what is easy. And just making that decision and being a voice for that. That's leadership. Even if nothing changes immediately. Just holding the space for other people to hear truth that they know exists that they haven't been able to verbalize or express.

Maybe you could just become the Surgeon General or something and you could.

Well, the old surgeon general went to med school with my husband. Yeah. He's an amazing guy.

So there we go. We just working on that. You know, we'll put you in charge of things.

I just think of there's so many people. If we could just sort of pluck them from their own little space and put them in bigger roles, we could completely change the planet. Right. I have a girlfriend who is in social services. I'm like, could you just please be president?

I mean, social. Social services. People who are in social services, they are the absolute angels of the universe, 100%.

Like, she can hear anyone out. She can listen to anybody say anything. And there's never a boiling point.

It's like, well.

The most magical people on Earth. They are absolutely, like, bar none, all of them.

They talk to the guys with the green men and everything. Yeah. So, yeah, I. I think we could just pluck people out and make major substantive change. Okay, so last question. What would you say is the most important lesson you've really learned about being a leader through the work that we've done? I'm kind of curious.

Oh, you. You might be the first person in your wisdom to say, like.

Capture the quiet. Get into that quiet spot and listen to your instincts. You know, I'm a scientist. Like, we don't. We don't talk about, like, instinct. I mean, we have an inkling. Right. But we really want our evidence to be behind all the decisions that we make. And. But it's in the quiet that magic happens, and it's the magic that allows you to fuel that. You need to fuel any big shift.

And so you reserve that time. Yeah.

That, to me, is when you talk about that leadership is feminine. That's that space where intuition and knowing are as honored as.

Evidential scientific proof. It doesn't mean you don't vet it. Right. So it's not like a. It's not like a knee jerk, but it's listening to it. Like, you. I love that you just said that. It's like recognizing, okay, this is a truth that is living in here for me, putting it in the world. Right. And letting other people hear you and sort of corroborate, like, no, no, that's. That's happening. And I'm so glad that you said that.

Yeah. And it's more powerful than data always. You know, And. And I think. I don't. I don't believe I've ever been in a space where someone's like, listen to your instinct. Listen to that. You're. You know, you. You feel that you're. You have this thought come up, like, listen to it. And I think it is so. Right. I trust it so much that. And I think that you're really so wise in that.

I would bet. Thank you. I would bet that that is in play when you are treating and caring for patients. But it's so much a part. It's that maladaptive thing. It's so much a part of you in that space that you see it all as very integral. We pull you into a leadership role, it feels a little awkward. Then you're looking for the steps to follow. But that unseen is as important as, you know, vision, values, roles, goals.

And there is science to it. Right. There is the. I just think I haven't applied it to relationships with people as much as I have to. You know, the reason that I make a decision in a clinical scenario, even if I don't have data to back it up, is because I've thought about XYZ and gone through every single one and been like, this is the right answer. Because of these. All of these other things, I'm not as able to integrate that when it's all just thoughts in my head.

Yeah. And that, I think, also that comes with leadership wisdom over time. You just build it, you build it, you build it. It's just all of the things just like it has in your practice. And that's what I always wish for women as I work with them is like, just. It's all happening exactly as it's supposed to. And this belief that somehow you should have figured it out or you should know or you shouldn't be uncomfortable. Woman I talked to today, she said, why am I always so anxious when I have to be a boss? Like, thinking about being a boss just makes me so anxious and, like, okay, but yeah, and you also have been, you know, flying by the seat of your pants, and you don't have any structure to what you're doing. So let's work on that first before we just make it be that you're a terrible boss and you shouldn't. You shouldn't do this anymore.

Right. It's not just the imposter syndrome. Like, I think imposter syndrome gets put on women as a way to say that, like, this is a syndrome you have, as opposed to, like, doubts are normal.

Yes, they are normal.

Questioning yourself is normal. This is uncomfortable. And more people are questioning women. Obviously, people question young women a lot. Like, this is not all in your head as the syndrome that you have to cure. It's a systemic, systematic thing you have to recognize and move through.

Yeah. I get into it with my husband. He'll be talking about his business, and I'm like, well, have you thought about this, this, this? And he'll tell me like, no, that's. He just misses. I'm like, do you know what I do for a living?

So frustrated. Like, listen to me. I love you. Let's just have dinner. I don't want to have this conversation with you. You run your company exactly like you want to. Anyway, it took us off topic. Okay, last bit of wisdom. Anything else you want to say?

No. I think.

You do incorporate magic a lot, and I love magic.

Why are you coming to Hawaii?

Why am I coming to Hawaii?

Wow, that was a crazy morning. Just in that I had this conference in Prague that I was supposed to go to, and then all of a sudden everything got switched to virtual and I was like, I need to go to Hawaii. I need that quiet. I need to figure this out. You know, I had just watched King Richard, that movie about Richard, Serena and Venus Williams's father, Richard Williams, and the signs that they would put on the, you know, on the tennis court. If you fail the plan, you plan to fail. Like, I needed quiet to plan and to figure out, like, how to prioritize. And it's funny, I talked to my kids about it. I have an 11 year old and a 12 year old, and they were like, yeah, you gotta go. Like, and they love Hawaii. They're like, we. They're going to Hawaii with us in April with my nieces as well. And they're like, no, you gotta go, you gotta do this. Which I. So the reason I'm going is that one. There's that magic that was there. There was a sudden change of plans that I felt like the course had corrected and I needed to go there. But also the idea to tell my show, my kids, show my colleagues, show everyone, this, this is important. Yeah. You know, so I felt that.

I think that is a huge message for women, and especially women of daughters in general. I just think we could do a much better job helping people realize how critically important it is to spend time with yourself and to do so lovely in a lovely way. Like, you don't have to spend time with yourself at the gym. Like, you could take yourself to a beautiful resort and have lovely meals and spend time with lovely other women and maybe get a massage. And if you have the means to do that, you can do that. Like, there's nothing wrong with that.

Right.

Be your own best company and indulge in your own joy that way. I just, I think it's a critical message for everybody because I just, you know, having done this now for 10 years and heard so many times, oh, I can't. I could never I couldn't go to. I couldn't go to Hawaii without my husband. I couldn't go to Hawaii without my family. Like, why?

Why not? I don't. Why not?

I'm very fortunate. I have a husband who's like, yeah, please go do whatever. But at the same time, like, I don't. I still don't get it. I don't get.

Right. It's just a mindset, this. This feeling that we. We. It's a mal. It's a maladaptive habit to ask everybody else for permission because you need that before you can give yourself permission. But really, to lead, you have to have this inner.

Calm and confidence of. Of doing it. And you don't just develop confidence. So, like, I certainly wasn't confident in making the decision, but in making the decision, I became more confident that that was the right decision. Yeah.

Now you're like, all the evidence to prove that I made the perfect decision. Right?

That's right. That's right. But it didn't feel that way right before. No.

I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I was like, do it.

Please, just do it. And I do love that you'll be in Hawaii leading a session in Prague.

Right.

That's hysterical. God. What. What even time is it going to be? Is it like 2 in the morning?

I was going to figure that out whenever I get there.

Okay. We won't worry.

But actually, a lot of the things are prerecorded, so it ends up being fine. Yeah.

Okay.

That's good. Okay.

I want to go to Prague, too.

Oh, I was very disappointed when that got canceled because it's a great organization.

Next time, next year.

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Well, thank you so much for the honor of your time today and our conversation. You're just lovely, and I've so, so loved having you a part of this program. You also hold great space for everybody else, too, which is, you know, I like to say, I believe that about everybody that comes into the lab. Right. It's just such a. I don't know. It's just lovely.

It's amazing. It's really amazing. I feel so honored to be a part of it.

Well, thank you for your time today. Have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thank you.