Ep #17: The Interview with Ruthie Schulder, CEO of The Participation Agency

Hey everyone, I'm Chris Plackey and this is how to Lead for female entrepreneurs and founders. Because the best way to grow a business is to grow the person who's running it. Let's go ahead and get started.

Hello, rock stars.

How are you? Welcome to this week's episode. I'm really excited to share an interview that I did with you with Ruthie shoulder. Ruthie is one of the co founders and CEO of the participation Agency, which is an experiential marketing agency based in New York. And I met Ruthie just by a total happenstance. I think someone on her team listened to my podcast.

Ruthie.

Ruthie said I need a coach and.

She put us together.

We met first on the phone and then I actually went to one of the events that she and her co founder, they created an event that they host in New York for women called let's Work, which they're also expanding on. And so I went to one of her events and I had an opportunity to meet her in person and we had lunch.

And I am always.

Super excited when I get the chance to meet really smart women. And it's why I do what I do, because I now I surround myself with these really smart clients and really smart women. And Ruthie is one of those women, man, she's just wicked smart. Like, you know how you meet people and you think, gosh, how does your brain work? Like, I love how you think. I love how you put ideas together in your brain like other people don't. And so their work in the world, the participation agencies work in the world is really unique and needed and is. It's sort of like developing its own need. I don't know how else to say that. Right. Like, so what they do creates the need for it, right. How they do that. But at the same time, Ruthie is the CEO and she's been figuring out how to manage a business and manage people. And even though they've had all this success, there's also been all the things that have gone on as being a business owner. And so it's honestly just been an honor for me to be along with her as she's been building her business and developing relationships with clients and in the marketplace and in the world with what she does. And at the same time also having to vet out those decisions that we all have to make. When we're running seven figure businesses, there's just no way around them. And it honestly doesn't matter if you're running a business where you sell stuff or you're Running a business where you are an agency and you're selling your service and your ideas or you're an online business.

Right.

And you're selling your online course or product. And so anyway, so I'm super excited for you all to hear a little bit about Ruthie. And I really would encourage you if you are drawn to thought leadership and to women who really become kind of the navigators and the creators in their space. I just want to really encourage you to follow her, check out their website. If you can get to one of the let's Work events, go to a let's Work event. And without further ado, here's Ruthie.

Okay.

All right.

Ruthie Shoulder, I'm so excited that you are here to talk with me and then by extension my listeners, which is awesome. Ruthie and I have known each other for a while. I've had the opportunity to know her and work with her and learn all about her incredible business and also just the work that you do in the world. Ruthie is so impressive for not just, not just in your space, in the experiential marketing space, which I'm going to let you talk about more, but also in helping other women and being a mentor to other women who also want to find their place in the world and how they get their voice and their work out there. So I'm just super excited to have you here today. So thank you for being here.

Excited to be here. Yay.

So why don't we just start with an introduction? Why don't you tell us, tell. Tell people who are listening who you are and what you do and we'll kind of go from there.

Sure. I'm Ruthie Shoulder, the co founder and CEO of the Participation agency, which is a creative agency, mostly focus on experiential marketing. So what that means is we create experiences that have a kickoff point with a live physical activation component that's then supported with a very robust digital strategy to make sure that the word continues to get out to all of the people who we want to be listening to.

That's the core of my business. And we work with brands of like all industries and all sizes and then we also create a lot of our own ip. So if there is a creative idea that we really believe in, we take the financial risk and we put that idea out to life and we prove out the best practice and then brands come in and partner with us after we've proved out the case study.

So good. So tell me a little bit about. Because I'm ever since I first Met you. I've always just been so intrigued by your work. It's kind of like. Like I didn't even know what you do existed. Right. Like, that's so fun about it. So how did that even get on your radar? Like, what was the attraction? How'd you get into this?

Yeah. So I actually can't take credit for that. Jessica, my business partner, we Both went to NYU to get our MBAs, and she graduated a little bit before me. And she was very into, like, New York City nightlife at the time and also was like a brilliant marketer and really honed in on this piece of marketing, which companies were just starting to really allocate more and more budget towards. And, you know, we're. She really had this vision that, like, saying experiential at that time was like saying social media even 10 years before that, where everybody knew that they had to do it, but they didn't know why and they didn't know how. And between her sort of, like, love of experience and our marketing, combined marketing and strategic acumen, we were like, if we can really make a name for ourselves and come to the table with some programs that really work and kind of like kick off with a bang, then we can really get a foothold in this piece of the business that's growing really, really, really quickly. Yeah. And we say, like, if we. If we tried to start this business today, we would have a very hard time because it's a really cluttered marketplace right now. But because we started early, we started young, you know, we were. We were really able to, like, get some stuff under our belts.

Yeah. Well, you guys are very much regarded as thought leaders in your space also. Right. So there's not just the tactical people who get it out there, but you really help the brands that you support think uniquely about what they want to do. Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is what I love about when you and I talk is your brain is just so fascinating. I love how you think.

Thank you.

Sure.

So let's talk about your relationship with Jessica, because I love that I coach a few business partner relationships also. And as a woman who runs her own business, you know, there's obviously different ways that people go into business. There's. People are just solopreneurs and they bootstrap it. There's people who have partners like you do. There's people who get lots of VC and lots of funding right to launch. So what would you say? Because I know you guys have worked together for a while. What is the dynamic between the two of you that's really helped it work. What do you think has been the magic between you two?

So before I dive into that, I want to say that I think that partnerships are really tricky. And I think that most entrepreneurs that I know, their first partnership fails. And I see that again and again and again. And Jessica and I, that was both. That was true for both of us. And so my, like, first piece of advice that I give to new entrepreneurs is that you should definitely have a partner, because I think going on it on your own is, like, very tough and tricky, and you don't have people to bounce ideas off of, but know that you might have to unravel the first go around because it, you know.

It can. You don't really know what you need in a partner until you have your first business and you, like, understand everyone's work ethic. And, you know, Jessica and I, we had worked together. She and I had both had our own businesses with partners that went south. And then we came together. We had already worked on a couple of projects together, and we kind of slow rolled into our partnership, and that was really great. We had a comfort level with each other. We were friends. We knew each other's work styles and also strengths. And I think one of the secret sauce is that we honestly work at the same pace. We're both fast. We both are decision makers. We don't always make the same decisions, but.

We want to progress. And one of the biggest. The biggest successes of our relationship is that we also fight fast. So, you know, arguments come up all the time. Every two years, one of us will get really insulted by something the other one has said or not said. And.

We are able to move past things very, very quickly, whether they're personal things or whether they're just. I think the creative that you're presenting is wrong. Or she can say to me, I think the strategy you're presenting is wrong, or I think the way you're managing this person is wrong. And we listen to each other and we really value each other's opinions, and we take it into account. And I think we influence each other in a lot of the right ways, and then we move on.

Yeah, I think that's so great that there's so much you said in there to unpack. Right.

That I love.

But the first thing is that the first relationship that a lot of people have in a partnership doesn't work out. And in my experience, because I've coached a few of those people who are either in it right in the breakup process or they're trying to break up. And I know this sounds very formal, but a lot of it has to do with that business operating agreement that people get into when they first start. And they don't do it. Right. They don't. And I mean. Right. In a way that's, like, wise. They don't get good advice. They really just kind of go. You know, it's like. It's like eloping.

Right.

Like, people, business partners, sometimes elope with each other instead of really think about what is the commitment that we're making to this business. And I just also love that you're talking about communication and that, you know, it's true for any leadership role. But it's great when two women who are running a business together can be honest and communicate and share, but then also be resilient and sort of have a mental toughness. It's like, okay, well, whatever. We don't agree. Let's move forward versus making it very, very dramatic. And.

Yeah, right. We're not dramatic.

No drama.

We also have a very shared vision of what we want this business to be for each of.

Us. We're on the same page about that. We, I think, have, like, similar levels of risk taking in us. Like, we're both positive opportunists. So we want to, like, see the good outcome of a situation, and we'll work towards that. I mean, I could talk about this for an hour alone.

I know, right?

She's.

So you guys are good.

Yeah. No, but it's really. It's really. It's special and it's powerful. And, like, we see it all the time, how there are so many that don't work out for so many reasons. And when you find somebody that does work out with, it's. You have all the gratitude and, like, know that it's unique.

Yeah. It's magic. Right?

Yeah.

Well.

And, you know, I know that I say that about employees, too, that. You know, there's a famous book that Marshall Goldsmith wrote that's called what Got yout Here Won't get yout There. But I also believe who got you here won't get you there. And that's true for team members, too. Right. Teams go through their own sort of phases of growth.

Yeah.

I'm sure you've seen the same thing as your business has changed and grown, right?

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

So let's talk about leadership for a second, because you've. That's been part of your growth. Right. Is here you guys have this great idea which quickly manifested into great clients and brand work and doing all this amazing stuff in the world. And then you had to hire people.

Yes.

To get the work done.

Yes. Yes.

So what would you say was sort of the most startling part of that process at the beginning?

Yeah.

Oh, God. I think even just, like, making the decision, the first decision to be like, who do we need and what and why? And, you know, we're. We didn't. We're not a funded company. Like, we spend only what we earn. And so every dollar that we spend on a person is a dollar out of our pockets, which at the beginning was kind of less of a thing, but we think about it more now that we have more senior people on our team and.

Expansive, you know, And I don't know if it was so hard. I mean, I think it's always at the beginning, it's like, what are you giving up? Like, as to. As people who are really do have a good sense of how we want our work to put out into the world. And we're pretty type A and we're somewhat controlling in a lot of ways, or whatever the words you want to say about it. Yeah. It's like, how do you bring the right people into the fold? And to be honest, like, even. Kind of even. I feel like this is the first year where we. Where we're not, like, hiring people we've known for a really long time. Like, a lot of the people that we hired for the first six years of our company, we've known for a really, really long time. And not even just friends. Like, our first employee who was with us for three years, she was a graphic. She's a graphic designer. Jessica knew her socially, and she had done some freelance work for her. And when we hired her, she was a waitress at a restaurant on the Bowery. And we'd run into her, and Jessica was like, we actually need somebody to start designing our deck, our pitch deck, so that we look professional in the marketplace. Let's get Emily here. She was our first employee, and she was with us for a really long time.

Isn't that amazing? Yeah, I love. You know, I think what's interesting about you, especially knowing and watching you, is you're such a mentor, Right? Like, I know you think of yourself as a mentor for a lot of women, but I'd be curious to know, and I think a lot of female entrepreneurs see themselves that way, right. Like, that they want to bring people into their business to help the business. But then you're also starting to take on this kind of mentorship role. But then there's, like, this crossroads that you hit where you. Where you have to be their boss. Right, like their manager.

Yeah.

And I'm curious what you would say about that. Like that the difference between being the mentor and then. Yeah, the manager.

So my honest answer is that I think this is one of my biggest challenges.

I don't think that I'm great at this or, you know, it's something I'm continuously working through.

I don't have the secret sauce on it because I find this to be very difficult as a person who wants to help uplift people and help teach them.

Unless if I'm really feeling up against the wall, I'm not the most confident. I'm very direct, but I wouldn't say I'm confrontational. And so my approach is to approach somebody a little bit more calmly and try to, I don't know, guide them, I guess. But on the flip side of that, I'm very big part of my process, too, is to be really prescriptive. So I am always, like, trying to find the balance of how do you not micromanage people, get them to do what you want them to do, mentor them, but also hold them accountable. Like, that's. That's a zone that I. That is a big learn. That is a big point of growth for me. So still and probably will be for kind of a long time. And I have two small kids at home. And, you know, a lot of it now is I'm kind of talking to people, like, sort of the same thing of like, okay, like how I always say to my kids if they're in a conflict, okay, well, what are the things you can say to get this person to listen to you that isn't having a tantrum? You know, and like, some of those.

Maybe the same thing can be true for adults.

Yeah, yeah, it is true. And you know, but I think, because I am a parent to two young kids, like, my perspective now is that I do want to sit with somebody and be like, okay, well, here's how I see that you're getting into a cycle of insecurity. Or here, you know, to me, I'm less good at.

Here's how I expect this report to be built. And this is how I want that information every Monday. And I'm a lot better at, well, this is how I see you're reacting in situations when you feel put upon by the client, and then this is what you're doing. And so it's leading to X, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's a stronger management place for me than some of the More tactical stuff.

Right. Which. So I love that you're bringing this up. Right. Because one of the books that a lot of my clients read that I think is really good also is called.

Rocket Fuel. And he talks about. Right. That every business has a visionary and every business needs a. Needs an integrator. Right. That's a person who can do the systems and the processes. And in your case, you and Jessica are very much both the visionaries. I think Jessica picks up some of that integrator role, but more so it's more about recognizing that it's normal. And so that's why I want to say this at the high level for everybody listening who has their own business. It's very normal for women who are visionaries to not have the comfort with what you're talking about. It's the sort of more systems, procedural approach to how you want people to get their work done, but to be very good at the sort of higher level mentorship. Like you're saying, like, I'm observing this behavior which is leading to this result. And I know you and I have talked about this in the time that we've been working together, and that's just. It doesn't have to be you that becomes the expert. Right. It just has to.

But the business gets big enough that you have to start to have some.

Of those processes and systems in place to help manage the outputs of people, right? Yeah. For people who are listening, I just like to. I think it's validating to know, like, if that's you too, which is, you know, every single client that hires me, usually the first call that we have, they're kind of like underneath their desk, like, what am I going to do.

With all these people who work for me? Yeah.

And it's a process. That's not the reason you started your business, right? Like, oh, I'm gonna start a business and so I can manage people. Right.

Yeah. And I am. The nature of my business too, is maybe this is true for all business. I don't know. But mine specifically has evolved a lot in the last couple of years, both in size and offerings, in being kind of like bold in the marketplace. Like, we didn't put a, you know, my business is not one where I have a product and it's somewhere sellable and, you know, it's very. Yeah, you're putting on a shelf somewhere. And so we're constantly like, reinventing as a company, like every couple of years. And that has a trickle up and a trickle down. And so we're needing like, new Types of people. We're needing new levels of people. And I've never built an agency before. Like, this is all new for me, essentially. And so there's a lot of figuring it out that, you know, if the book that actually most impacted me was reading, it's called the Hard Thing about Hard Things. And I think it's. Yeah, it's by. It's Ben Horowitz from Andreessen Horowitz. And he was, you know, he's this hugely successful entrepreneur and now vc. And it's basically all entrepreneurship. Basically all comes down to, like, how. How strong your stomach is and, like, do you have the grit for the stress and the sickness? And I'll bring you. Because no one knows. Like, there's no crystal ball.

No, of course not. But what I love about what you just said, even, is that you're willing to reevaluate and restructure, you know, and that's something that I've talked about before, and I know one of my girlfriends says all the time is you just have to be willing to, you know, every year just totally audit your business.

Yeah.

And just make an assessment. Like, yeah, you know what? We've needed people like this, but now we don't. Or we really need people like this and we don't have them. Or we've been doing this kind of work with these clients, and we're not going to do that anymore. We're only going to do this kind of work. Right.

Yeah.

Those are hard decisions to make because. Especially if something's been really successful or especially if an employee's been with you a long time, even though they're not really giving you the result that you need anymore, or their skill doesn't match with what your guys are doing anymore. Those are tough calls to make.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I also think. I mean, you and I talk about this a lot, I think. Or we. We talk about what we. What I need to restructure in my business, and I'm slow to do it, but with my clients, I'm so fast. To be like, here's all the things you're doing wrong. And I think it's very like, taking your own advice or looking at your own thing as closely as you and as easily as you can look at somebody else's is just. It's really hard and it's different.

Well, that's what you need a coach for.

Yeah.

So at least once a week, you're getting a buzz in your ear. What are you doing? Why is this still happening?

What's happening.

Okay, let's talk about let's Work because I love let's Work, and I love what you're doing with let's Work. So let's hear all about the let's Work so that people know about it who are in a city near. In the city where they can participate.

Okay.

So Jessica, my business partner, and I are very into female entrepreneurship and female mentorship. On the flip side of that, we are always questioning, like, why things.

That suck are as successful as they are. And, you know, we spend so much time. We go to, like, a ton of different conferences and a ton of different networking events, and we kind of just got really fed up about how they can be, like, so unproductive at times and how the format for them, whether the information being delivered is just being delivered in a really boring way, or you don't know who's in the room or you feel shy about going up to somebody. And we had this opportunity in partnership with the Soho House, to kind of, like, reinvent our own model of what a women's community based on networking could really be. And we started to think about some of the overall themes that were either missing or too prevalent and kind of like women in business. And one of the themes that kind of kept coming up is that, you know, people just assume that women don't help each other, and they assume that women bring other women down. And, you know, if you complain, you're a bitch, and, you know, all of that stuff. And it's the click mentality and all that. And, like, we. Our experience, you know, there are always a couple who want to hold you back. But, like, our experience predominantly is that that isn't true and that women want to be supportive of one another, especially in today's climate. And we really wanted to build a community that rested on kind of this, like, open Rolodex nature and on this real, true vision of, like, you are in this room to support other women who are in this room and vice versa. And you should be very bold with what you want and what you need. And our format's honestly, really simple. But, like, we do this event, it's every month in New York, it's third Friday of every month. We do it quarterly in la. We're rolling it out in Chicago, and it's going to continue to expand in all sorts of live and digital days.

Keep your ears peeled for those announcements. I know, but we, you know, whether we have 30 people in the room or 200 people in the room, before we kick off, every single person goes around and introduces themselves. And then what we do, which we found is really successful, is that we actually break people up into groups of like six or eight women and we pose questions that we feel are somewhat provocative that put people kind of in a place of connection and vulnerability. And the reason we do that is because you're able to just form so many more powerful connections with people when you don't have to talk about the weather or someone's kids. And you can just kind of like get the meat of some things that we're all either talking about or not talking about.

So good. Yeah, because, you know, when people network, they also are, you know, naturally, some people are just really uncomfortable. Some people are completely overbearing. Like, there's everybody. And so you. By you. Because the event that I went to, I loved that you, you gave us a topic which was so great. And then it was so interesting too. It was like, so intriguing to hear what other women had to say. And so I thought it was, it was so great. And I loved the dynamic too. So many ages and different, all sorts of different kinds of work that people were in.

So I'm a salesperson, but, you know, networking, I'm comfortable at events. And even for me, like, sometimes I'll go to something and I'll meet nobody and I'm like, what just happens? And networking is a muscle. And you have to like, you have to get in the ring and you have to work that muscle, and that's how you get better at it. And that's how you become less shy and figure out the right way to bust into a conversation or just walk up to somebody with nothing to say but hello. So I think the more opportunities that we have to do that, the better. And you know, having a room where it's really women only is a very powerful thing. I'm finding more and more in my own career, whether I working out of the wing or I'm going to the Forbes Women's only leadership conference or at our own events, the energy in a female only room is very different. And if you haven't gone to a women only event, you should go. And I think that you'll like. It'll be productive for you. It's just I always feel more productive. I don't know why. It just kind of is how it unfolds for me.

I agree. And I think what's great is there's so much permission right now for women to do that in a way that's very constructive. And I've certainly, you know, I have my executive group which is for women, female entrepreneurs and we meet every week. It's a coaching group and same like it's just. It just provides this incredible opportunity for people to connect in a different way.

Yeah.

So how do people find out about. Let's work.

Yeah. My website is.

This is the pa.comthisisthepa.com.

Yeah. Because my company is the participation agency.

Yes. Which is such a great website also. I love your website.

So I have one last question I guess that I would ask you as we're closing down and that's really like, because you do work with so many women who work on their own and want to do something amazing in the world. What is your. The best thing that you would love to share with people who are listening? The one thing you would want everybody to know?

Yeah. The biggest thing for me that I look for when I'm meeting new people that either wows me or really disappoints me is how well somebody can tell their story.

And when somebody can come in and meet with me and they're like, this is who I am and this is what I bring to the table and here's why and here's how I'm so thrilled. And I think the biggest piece of advice that I wish I had received in my 20s when I was really trying to figure things out and like not doing such a great job of it was I wish somebody had told me, really figure out your story and be able to tell it truthfully and with confidence. I think it would have cut through about five years of BS that I encountered in my career. And of course you need a certain level of self awareness to do that. But I think it's worth it to put in the work and to really like figure that piece out and be able to talk about it intelligently.

I love that. I think that's such, you know, it's so interesting because I do work with a lot of women and I would say when I meet with a few of them, I would. I could see what you're saying. Like, it's just not clear. They're not all links. Not just women.

Yeah.

Not just women.

Yeah.

Just in general, like be, be confident or it. And it's like a, it's like branding. Right. I mean, isn't that the same thing we're really talking about?

Like. Yeah.

Do you know what do you. Are you self aware enough about your own brand and can you tell the story of your brand in a way that is meaningful? I love that.

Yeah.

Because otherwise we don't have a lot of time either. Right. To make an impression.

No, no. And like, you know, and even if your story is not linear, like my background is, it wasn't and isn't and never will be. Like, that's okay. Nobody, no one's. Is it anymore. Just figure out the right way to talk to it. Yeah, yeah.

So good. So good. Okay, well, I've kept you long enough. It's been so awesome. It's always great to chat with you. I am so impressed. If you guys don't know who really Ruthie is, she was also. Recently you were in. Was it Inc or Forbes? Which one? Was it.

The top 100 female founders. Inc. Top female 100 founder. She was next to Brene Brown, which.

I thought was so cool. Yes, thank you.

You were sitting right next to her. But you just. If you're not familiar with Ruthie, I really encourage you to check out her website and watch her work because she's. You're doing some really powerful work in a way that I think is going to have an impact for a lot of people in a lot of different ways. So I think it's fun to watch how you put that together and keep reiterating it. And I'm hoping to get to a let's Work event over the summer.

That's my goal.

Oh, yeah, I know. I'll come back to New York when it's not freezing.

Yeah, yeah. Give it about two more. We need eight more weeks.

Yeah. There we go. Then it gets too hot, so I gotta balance that out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But thanks for your time.

Thank you. Okay.

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