Live Coaching Coversation: Spotting the Right Hire in 5 Minutes

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Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Chris Plattke. I'm your host. And this is New Leadership is Feminine. Now, you all may remember that I told you that I'm going to be featuring four live coaching calls and conversations over the next four podcasts. And today is our very first one. And I'm super excited. And the reason I wanted to do this was, was to let you hear what a coaching conversation actually sounds like if you work with me and to give you some perspective because a lot of you, I think, listen to and work with other coaches and there's a variety in what coaching can feel like and sound like. And lastly, all of the women I have these conversations with are working through issues that I know so many of you are facing. So my hope is that you'll feel validated and you're not alone. And, and also, of course, that you'll walk away with ideas and insights and some tools to help you work through your own challenges. Today's conversation is with a founder who's hiring again.

And like a lot of business owners, she's been burned by past hires that didn't quite work out. In our session, we talk through what it really means to hire for values alignment, not just resume or experience. You'll hear us role play actual interview questions, workshop how to be direct without being harsh, and you'll also hear her give herself some much needed grace for the hiring mistakes she's made in the past. This episode is full of practical language you can use today, whether you're in the middle of hiring or just want to start building a better team. So let's get started. Here we go. So I saw on the type form that you, you're sort of starting from scratch again in terms of hiring.

So I think maybe interviewing as far as hiring goes, I think interviewing. I know we talked about behavioral questions and using AI to create the position. As you know, I don't have an HR background.

Nobody does. Even, even HR people don't have HR backgrounds.

Is that the secret?

We all start somewhere, I guess, is the way we say that.

So I haven't tried to look up any behavior questions yet for the position that we're going to hire. But I think just overall, generally learning to read people, you had made a comment in that class that, you know, they should be talking 80% of the time. I love that. That was exciting because I think in the past, so I've heard a thing about, you know, you want to make sure that you're sharing your values, your promise, who you are. So that these people kind of know what to expect. But I think maybe I took it a little too far and was selling my. Myself, selling my company and how awesome we are.

So easy. It's so much easier to talk about that than to sort of sit in the process of an interview. Especially if interviewing is not your like jam. Right. It's not your favorite thing. Okay, well, why don't we. If you don't mind, I'm just going to sort of ask you. We'll just start. I just have questions and then kind of see where we go. But your goal is what. What would. If you had a goal as it relates to interviewing?

A goal as it relates to interviewing would be to be able to read people, to be able to understand them, where they're coming from and to. To really get to know the person and their personality. Is that a good answer?

It's your answer. So it is. Yeah. That's good. That's perfect. So we'll start. We'll start. Go by going backwards and then we'll go forwards. Okay, so what has been your experience interviewing?

I've interviewed and hired a lot of people that I already knew.

Okay.

I had the thought process that if you hired somebody and you took care of them, you paid them well, you gave them the nice job that and you respected them, that they would just do what you wanted them to do. Right. So in interviews with people that I knew, we basically talked about scheduling and requirements of the job. So we didn't do any behavioral questions.

It was more checklisty.

Yes. Like, can you do this? This, you know, can you be here at 8am can you travel? Can you all the pick up, you know, paint and that sort of thing. So. And then with people that I didn't know, I had gone to a class and there was a lady who was saying that she was trying to ask character type questions like what is your spirit animal? And trying to understand who people are through character type questions. So there wasn't a whole lot of tell me about a time you did this.

And then accountability became a big deal to me over the years.

As it happens to.

I got tired of the blame, excuse, deny cycle, the people that I was hiring. So I started trying to ask a question like, tell me about a time that you messed up and how you handled that situation. Still probably not.

The best questions, I think. I feel like I. Maybe I'm missing the questions. What questions am I supposed to ask?

Well, I think that there is a lot of power in a question. There's also a lot of power in how you listen to the response.

Right.

And then the, the other element that's in the room is your deep desire to find someone to provide relief, help, support. Right. Pick up the pieces or whatever of the business. So a lot of dynamics happening, especially in small business when we hire. It's just the truth. We have a lot that we're. We're putting into this decision. And so the more times we do interview and hire, especially for the same kind of positions, the more we can develop a little. I've called hiring PTSD in the past, where maybe we get a little gun shy or already sort of defeated before we begin, or suspicious or apathetic, like, I don't care. Do they have a pulse? Like, right. We kind of go back and forth depending on how. Where we are in the cycle of our own business. Is that a fair.

Yes. I started out with that. I don't care. Do they have a pulse?

Yes. Turns out you should care.

Then I cared about. And now I'm gun. I'm in the gun shy stage. Now I'm just like, I'm nothing. And I say it didn't work. And I've tried to give myself a little bit of grace over that. I finally had that epiphany this morning. I think it did work. It worked for a year and a half, and that's actually pretty good.

So that's great to hear.

Yeah. In the world that we're in right now, you know, depending on the position, but really, for most roles, two years, that's a pretty good amount of tenure. Okay. Because people are moving, literally moving. Right. Their lives are changing. They're getting married, they're having babies, they're getting divorced. Their wives are having babies. They're, you know, taking care of their parents. They're. There's just so much volatility in a human life, and it affects their work. And so, you know, what I always like to do is help my clients recognize, like, you can't keep someone forever. You can't hire with the intention of keeping someone forever because you'll always lose that expectation. Right. You'll always disappoint yourself. But what we can do is develop good process where we invite qualified, aligned people. And the. Even when we get that really, really right, we're still at a 50, 50 chance.

Okay. Right.

And I, I, maybe people don't love that, those odds. But I, if you listen to my podcast, you know, I talk about my daughter who plays soccer and she's a goalie, and, you know, she has to do PKs penalty kicks, right? And 20% of, of penalty kicks are saved by a goalie. Do you know what a penalty kick is?

Do you know that's where they, the other team, they get penalized for a reason and then they get to kick, right?

Yeah. And they're really close to the goalie, right? An 18 yard spot or something. It's really close. I have that right? So it, it, it's up to the kicker to make the goal. It's not up to the keeper to save it. Statistically speaking, right. The kicker puts the ball down, their job is to make it. Because, because they are supposed to be part of the 80% that makes the goal. The goalie's job is to try and be part of the 20% that saves the ball. Now why do I tell you this about staffing or hiring? Because we, this is a, this is an agreement that people are making. If you take all the responsibility for finding the right people, hiring the right people, paying them, the right trainer, right? And make sure that they, it's not just you, it's an agreement. And sometimes people come in, they thought the job would be something it isn't, and they're, they're not happy, they take the job and the week after their parents get divorced and they have to move with one of them to Barbados. Like, I don't know, like, there's just so many variables. So there is skill that we can improve on as people who hire people.

But then there are variables that you're never going to control. And so that I just. So for the person that the little part of you right now that is feeling a little gun shy, I just want to remind her that you have hired good people and you will hire other good people, but there is probably some work you can do to hedge your bets a little bit better. Right? Right. How long have you been in business?

Eight years.

Eight years. And in that eight years, have you hired other good people?

Yes.

Yeah. Okay, so if I were to ask you what your ideal, your ideal employee is like, characteristically, not, not, not based on position, just based on like the best kind of people to have you work in your company, what would you tell me?

Positivity.

Okay.

I need somebody that's, you know, I just don't want a Debbie Downer. Somebody that's happy positivity, attention to detail and ability to remember things.

Kind and flexible. I need somebody that's kind and, and, you know, just grateful for opportunities.

Kind of goes with the flow, huh?

Yeah, goes with the flow. And flexible.

Okay, sounds good. Are those written down anywhere?

It is, yes.

Okay. Those are values.

They are.

Okay, good. That's the first step. Right.

And accountability. Accountability is not on there.

And the way that we. We. The way that we say that as a shared value is that we. Is that we accept ownership. Okay, Right. Somebody who demonstrates ownership accepts ownership. Accountability is a trigger word for a lot of people. And I think that ownership is a much more empowering word. That's just me personally, so that's why I teach it that way. Like, when I teach delegation, I talk about transfer of ownership. I don't talk about delegating because delegating sort of assumes I still own it and I gave it to you to do, whereas, no, no, I'm transferring the ownership of this to you now. It's yours, not mine. So ownership is a more encompassing way to say it, in my opinion. After years of using the word accountability. I think we use accountability more in a performance conversation. That's when that word is typically more referenced. And so it's got. It's a trigger word for a lot of people. Right. I think about hiring as an invitation. Okay. So I recently had a party here in my house, and that is no joke. I haven't had one in years. And so we really thought about, who do we want to invite to this party? We have a lot of people we could invite, but who do we want to invite? We thought about. We want to invite people that we really. That are easy, that are fun, that are aligned with us and our values, that are respectful, that are probably a little older, that they don't have little kids anymore. Like, there was just a lot of different things that we were talking about. And that way, when we wrote the invitation, we were able to already write the invitation for the right person. Right. And so when you think about hiring, it's not just about filling a job. It's about inviting this human into your ecosystem. So I think this part you just shared with me, right. Positive attention to detail, good memory. No one has said that. And I love that you said that. I think that's fantastic. I haven't heard anybody ever say that, but I heal you, because I have a terrible memory. Flexible, goes with the flow. Right. Accepts ownership and responsibility for their commitments, whatever that is. As important as is, can you go pick up paint in your car? Right, Right. If not, more so. More so, yeah. So now if that's what we want to find out about someone, we want to know about their attention to detail. How could somebody show you their attention to detail without you even Having to ask. And you don't have to answer that this minute, but there are things you can do. Like I have been known to say to someone, hey, I'm going to send you an email this afternoon after the, after our interview. Just has a couple follow up questions in it and then I don't send it. Okay, so what am I testing for?

To see if they're going to notice and respond.

Initiative.

How? Yeah, how interested are they?

Yep. It's subtle, it's may sound like trickery. Somebody might be listening to this and be like, that's. Listen to me. The way people act is way more valuable than the words they say. Trust me. Right. Yes, words are especially when people know how to interview. So actions. So that's one way. And that to me is also attention to detail. Hey, I, the, the candidate who emails you and says hey, you said you were going to send me a couple of questions this afternoon. I haven't received it. That's an interesting thing, right? How prompt are they to the interview? How well amended. Amen. Appointed. Are they, are they disheveled? Are they dressed properly? Are they, do they look right? Like that is detail. And I think we have to look at. It's the whole thing, not just can they spell or like what are the common details that might be missed in your business that kind of drive you nuts?

Probably the most important thing that people are missing is time tracking. Knowing how long it's taking, you know, for projects to be completed, how many man hours it took and who has to do that? The project manager.

Okay, so the other thing that. Have you ever tried doing any like assessments? Tests, yes.

So the last round of hiring that I did, we hired two people last year. We started using the disc assessment as part of our hiring process.

So we utilized the software programs, we created the job description and the posting and submitted it to all of the different websites and we got, I think it was about 80 applicants. And then when they applied we would send them the disc assessment to complete that. That was a prereq before an interview was the disc assessment. And they, I think we had 15 people out of 80 do the assessment. So that was helpful.

And then out of disc, did you only talk to the s and the Cs or who did you.

So that's what I didn't understand at the time. I hired a high S.

For a project management position and estimating a project management position, it was a cradle to grave where they would estimate it and then carry it full to completion. I think he was probably not, not I think he was, he was better at selling than he was at project management.

And S's are traditionally really good support roles. So not. They just, they're good with clear direction and those kinds of things. So.

Okay, so that's what I didn't quite understand last year. It was like, oh, okay, well, great. I have this information, but I don't understand it, so. Exactly.

And I'm glad, I'm really glad that you said that honestly, because I think a lot of people try these assessments. Like there's red, blue, green, orange, and then there's this one and there's, I mean there's tons of them. But exactly to your point, it's, it's we, we use those because we don't trust our own process and our own ability to assess someone's skill and character using your words. And I'm not suggesting they're wrong. It's just only as good as the person who's evaluating it. Right. And if I were going to give you any advice about that, I would just say write your own. Right? Like if we know that, you know, the average project is a six week project, making this up, right? We know it's six weeks. Here are all of the elements that are required. Here's how we track and schedule time. Here's like give them all of the elements of your process and give them an example and say, this is the project. This is the. I would like you to build as part of your interview process, I'd like you to build the project plan.

Okay. So that's similar to like a bench test for a mechanical contractor.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think anything you can do that is as close to your work as is a, is a. As that you can without them working there, right. That mimics a day in the life of the role is, is the best thing you can do. Right. And when I used to hire salespeople, I used to always ask them to sell me a rainbow. Like, it was such a silly question, right? But it was so silly that it was powerful because most people would just open. Do you know, pretend like there were 12 rainbows on the wall and tell me all about all the rainbows. That's not selling me a rainbow. It was the easiest way for me to know if someone could sell. Because the question that someone should always ask if I say sell me a rainbow is why do you want a rainbow? What kind of rainbow are you looking for?

That's what I was thinking. What, what type of rainbow are you looking for?

Yeah, what is it about a Rainbow that brought you in today, Right. That's somebody who knows how to sell anything is they build the relationship, they understand the reason behind the. That's driving the choice and the behavior. Right. So your work with this role, from my perspective, is getting into some of those things that you have hit your head on that you haven't been able to properly assess through the process of an interview.

Okay.

And I actually don't know that. Tell me about a time whens are necessarily always going to be the best answer. I think you should ask ChatGPT to write you questions that help you assess skill, confidence and ability for whatever tasks, tactical, strategic, etcetera, etcetera. Elements are required of the role. I don't think that's going to hurt you to do that. But then we have to just make sure that. Then we filter that through what you want to hear because the question is useless if you haven't thought about what you want the answer to be. Right. Just like I just said with the rainbow.

Right.

What a cool question. I'm going to ask that. Sell me a rainbow. But then if you don't know what to do with their answer, you might just think, wow, that was great. They tried to sell me 12 different rainbows. They were so great. Right? No, don't sell me 12 rainbows. Sell me the rainbow I want. That's what I'm looking for. Right. So that requires you to be very clear about what you have to hear. That is a yes and a no. Even if you love them. Candidate crushes are real.

Someone comes in, they look amazing on paper. They worked at a place very similar to yours. You're so impressed with them. But then they start answering the questions wrong.

But they look so good on paper. They have all the experience and they've done it. But they're so right. Not if they're not right for you.

Okay.

And that gets right. We don't trust ourselves. But you can see in the clearly in the people that you've hired recently where you made a decision and it didn't work out. What's the biggest kind of, oh, I should have seen that in the one of your last hires that you didn't see.

Okay. Try to figure out a way to. You might have to edit some of this. I don't know how to say. It's very politically correct. So it was a female and she was racist and prejudiced. She actually.

She used her religion to tell me that I should not be a business owner as a woman.

But she, she was happy to take a job she. She'll take your paycheck.

Yes.

She marries that with her God.

Then I found out she justified it by saying that she. She felt like she was doing her husband a service by working for a female, but she never felt like I would. Should have been in this position.

Wow. I mean, listen, I have heard lots of things. That's. That one's a first. I'm glad you hired her.

I'm glad I was able to give you a couple of first at least. I know.

I'm like, oh, no, you're not alone. I mean, the things that people do never surprise me. But I. That's. That's a good one. You should not have this business because you're a woman. And God says, the Bible says women shouldn't work.

We should be.

I don't know, domicile. I don't know.

I didn't. I didn't ask for any details. I was just like, okay, thanks. She ended up.

Accessing our employee documents, employment documents, got my Social Security number, used it to apply for a business credit app for our business. It was. It was a business credit app for our company, but she accessed it and forged my signature now. But I shouldn't be a business owner.

No, listen, that's. And that's. That's fraud. That's crime.

Yeah.

It's probably a felony somewhere.

It is a felony. I've got a friend who works for the court system, and she's like, if I had pressed charges, it would have been a felony.

Yeah. And. Yeah.

So.

So here's. I hired a woman who was on trial for manslaughter, and I didn't know it.

Wow.

So I always just like to tell. Listen, I teach this for a living. So listen. Right. We all can step in it. But. Right. So when we did sort of our debrief on that one, I'm like, how do we end up with the woman who's currently not. Not at. Not before. Currently awaiting trial for manslaughter?

Yeah.

How could we. How did we miss out?

How do we. How do we know in the future, moving forward?

Yes. Well, turns out, because I found out by a simple Google search that maybe even that is one thing we could do.

Yes.

Just a. Just a little.

I do do that.

Yes. That's good.

I do Google and I Facebook and I do all the LinkedIn. I check all the people's social media before they even come into the office.

Yeah.

I've eliminated a lot of people just by their social media.

Yes. And. And listen, so. So. But that's the Kind of sort of debriefing I always think is powerful. So if we can't, if we're not going to take it personally, then we just have to kind of evaluate for ourselves. Is there anything that I thought, felt in the interview process with this person that I ignored? And if the answer is yes, then we just notice it, like, well, I'm making this up because I don't know. Right. But, well, she referenced scripture 17 times in the interview. Right. Or, well, she made some slide remarks about other people that now, in retrospect, might have been a clue. A clue to her be her thoughts and her racist beliefs about other people or whatever. So. But I don't know if that. That's true because I also think criminals are incredibly good at being criminally, and they can be very charismatic and charming and lovely when they need to be. But what we have to know is that that is not most people. Right? And we go right back in because the longer you wait, the more you have apprehension. But that, that, to anyone also listening, like, we all know that is so injurious to our integrity, to our sense of safety, to our vulnerability.

Right.

There's a lot of exposure that. That reveals for you, and I appreciate that. Feels awful. It's a. It's a little bit of a trauma that you just have to kind of allow yourself to move through because she clearly took advantage of you. And so any hoodles, but there's really good people. And so that's one of the questions I do like to ask my clients is, you know, how confident are you that you can find an amazing person for this role?

I'm gonna say 80%. I'm 80% confident that I can find the right person, especially with the tools that I. I gave myself time to. To do it right this time. I didn't just hire a body. I didn't jump back into it. So I'm excited for the tools that I have now to do better.

And, and your confidence at 80% of you, that's like, yeah, no, I'm. I'm. I feel like this is going to work out. Why? Because I have the tools. I've invested in it. I took a little bit of a break. Why else do you feel good? Like, when we just talked to the 80. The first part of you that's 80% confident. Why else is she pretty sure she's going to find someone?

I would say so. I've used this a lot lately. I'm good at the things that I do because I try hard. So I just Have a high level of confidence in myself because I have succeeded. If you knew a little bit about my background, you would. It would be easier to understand that. But I, I started from the bottom. Now I'm here is. That's, you know, it's a true story for me, so.

And it's a powerful story. And I want to. I wrote down what you said.

It's so simple, but there was so much in it. You said, I try hard.

Yeah, I try hard.

And I, I think you should ask people that question. When was the last time you tried really hard and what was your result? Because as, as women who run businesses, it doesn't matter what your business is. Right. There is heart in the business that we don't see necessarily in big companies. Your business is, is built around your mission, your vision, what you want to achieve in the world and the people you want to surround yourself in your ecosystem. And if that is a core to how you define yourself, listen, I'm just a person who tries really hard and I have succeeded as a result, then that tells me those are the people that you need to have around you, because that's where the synergy is. Am I right about that?

Yes, 100% right about that.

And what I want for you is just to believe that and know you're worth that and to never compromise that again, ever. Because it's the heart of what. It's not what you do, but it's the heart of how it's done. And the more discriminating you get, not to use that word in the derogatory, but the more thoughtful you are about that part of what lets people in your door to come work with you, to be in your safe space, to be, you know, invited into the queendom. The moat comes down and you let them in. We want those people. And so if so, then we have to think. Okay, so if you ask someone, when was the last time you had to really try hard at something. That's such a good question, by the way. It makes me think too. I'm like, I think I'm right in it, actually, as I'm talking to you, because I'm in the middle of this trying hard thing. I'm creating a customized ChatGPT just from my content for my clients. Wow. Do you use chat? I know I taught you it on that clinic. Do you use it ever?

I actually use Claude.

Okay. Claude is part of the right. There's lots of different sort of.

Right.

Yeah. So I'm building one that's going to pull from either Clot or sonnet, but it's all me. It's not them. It's all. Every bit of my content. We're dumping into it 10 years with podcasts, everything. So my clients have tested it, and they think it's super fun and cool because, like, it's me, which I just think is so delicious. But I am trying very hard because I am no person. I am not a technical person. Right. And so I'm really having to think about. So, anyway, the reason I just. I want you to know, I want you to think about what you want that answer to be.

Right?

Because what. What could someone say that you're like. You would roll your eyes? Like, really?

I think if it was something manual, something that's just part of daily life, like, oh, I tried hard to keep my house clean, or I try hard.

Oh, yes.

No, it's a daily task. Right.

That's a really. So. So again, you. You asked at the beginning, like, how do you address character? How do you. How do you evaluate character? And this is. It's. I love when people ask me these tough questions, because I think that's a really hard question to answer. I just have one of my sage clients who's been. Who's making a key hire. I've never done this before. And she's really nervous about it. And so I'm like, just send me the videos of the zooms that you did with these two top candidates. I just want to see them. I'm not going to listen to the whole video. I'm not going to listen to the whole interview. I just want to see what I see when I watch you two together. I want to see. Right. And it was so obvious that the first one she sent me was 100% the person she should hire versus the second one. And the reason I said that was in the second interview, she asked her a question about, have you ever used this sales customer service thing? Right. I don't even know what it was called. And the respondent said a little bit. Hmm. Nothing else. And my client was like, okay. And so I stopped the video right then, and I sent her a message and said, Canada, too, is a no. She either doesn't want the job, or there's something in there that just I could immediately sense. No, because my client talks a lot. She's very engaged. She understands things. Like, for. That would drive her crazy if someone just gave, like, that kind of a response all the time. No.

Simple.

Yeah. So character. If someone said, if you ask someone.

What was the last time you really had to try hard, and they say, well, I had to really have a ton of laundry. I had to get through. Don't let them off the hook, even if you think the answer's dumb. Okay, what would be a natural. Next question.

I think naturally I would move to. Can you tell me something in your work life?

No. So you jumped off. You jumped off it. That's what I would absolutely say.

Do the opposite in your work life that you had to try hard for.

But stay with the. Stay with the one they gave you.

Oh, okay.

I had tons of. Oh, my gosh. I had so much laundry after. I don't know that somebody would say that, but let's just say they did.

Right.

My backyard was a train wreck. I had to clean it up.

So stick with the laundry. So tell me how you got through laundry so good.

I love all of this. Because what we're trying to figure out is character. Right?

Right.

Okay.

Or have I already gotten my answer?

No. Well, first of all, I think the answer's dumb, but I don't want to let him off the hook. Why don't I let him off the hook with a dumb answer? Character. Think character. Think character. Think, think character. I'm trying to coach the coach here a little bit.

Sorry.

You're doing great. You're doing great. Everybody listening is like, oh, I know what I want to say. Why wouldn't. Why don't we just let it be with a dumb answer?

Because we haven't gotten our answer.

Exactly. Okay, so laundry. Why is that hard?

Okay. Why is laundry hard for you?

Yeah, why is that hard? So what we're going to find out right then is if they just said something because they don't know what to say or. You're going to get my answer if we talk about laundry because I hate the laundry. And so if that was me and I said laundry, I would say, well, because when my parents got divorced and I was seven years old, my mom made me do the laundry and I had to carry it up three flights of stairs in this apartment that we had to live in because we lost our house because my parents got divorced. And Since I was 7 years old, I resented the heck out of laundry. So when I have to do laundry, let me tell you, it is hard. Right? A little more color, right? Like, maybe that's actually not such a horrible answer. There's some psychological challenge there, right? Like, this is all sorts of emotional challenge there. It's such a basic answer. I had a ton of laundry to do. Or someone could just say I don't know. It just. I. It just takes forever.

Okay.

Do you feel the difference?

And there's not yet. There's a. There's a loss of connection there.

Yeah.

Response. Yeah. You can't.

So what I would say is think about a question that could potentially always be five layers deep. Okay.

Right.

So let's think about a question that somebody. What's a question? You ask a lot. And then we will. I know we're on. We're over time. So what's a question, though, that you ask a lot in your interview? Or maybe I should say it. Like, what's the. What's your favorite question to ask?

I. I don't like any of my questions.

Okay. What do you want? What would you love to ask that you never have asked?

I'm really excited about this. Try hard. Okay, Give me a second. Let's see. Because mine were all technical questions.

Let me give you a question because this is another one of my favorite questions. You ready?

Yes.

So if this would be like my first question. So, John, Rhonda, whoever. Right. Why are you looking for a job? So what could people say?

Um, I feel I have asked that before. Okay. It didn't come to my mind, but I got. I'm not happy where I am. I've heard that a lot.

Not now. I want you to think about. We've got a string of five. Right. So stay with me. So I'm going to switch roles with you. I want you to ask me. Right. So I'm. I'm just not happy where I am. It's just. I'm just. I haven't been for a while.

What is it about your job you don't like?

It's kind of boring.

The people. You know, my. My boss is a little hard to communicate with.

What do you think you would need from another place to be happy?

Okay, I'm gonna pause.

Okay, you're.

You're changing the subject.

Okay.

Stay with me. I hope everybody listening is following this too, because I don't know how to teach this until I teach it. Okay, so stay with the. Stay with. What did I just say?

You said my boss doesn't communicate well and it's boring.

It's boring. And my co workers, I don't really get along with. Right.

Okay.

Okay. So what's the next question you could ask there?

Stay on task.

What about the job is boring? If you're staying with boring, you could stay with boring or communication. Can you tell me more about the communication with the boss? With the boss?

He's just kind of gruff.

He doesn't give good direction. And then I feel like I'm in trouble when I don't do it right.

Trouble. Like I want to go with the trouble part of things. You feel like you're in trouble. What happens when you get in trouble? When you.

Well, he gives me like cold shoulder. Like, if I don't do it right, I sort of silent treatment for like a day or two. Give me one more. You can get there. You're doing great.

Sorry. Slow.

No, it's good.

Cold shoulder, silent treatment. Do you try to communicate with him or do you just.

Go, I guess. What is your response to him when he gives you the question?

I just ignore him too.

Okay. How was that? Was that okay?

That was good. Now we could. Now what we've. Now we've kind of followed. See, the thing about interviewing, right, is this. Most people expect they can give one answer and then we're done. If we're trying to really get to know someone, you have got to get underneath that now. Now, what did you just learn about me?

I learned that you don't know how to have difficult conversations.

Especially with a boss.

With the boss.

And learn. Or your co workers who are annoying. We didn't go down that path, but that's probably a similar.

See, what did I say about. You said, what does he do? And then what do you do? And I said, I just ignore him too.

Well, I think that's why I said the cold shoulder, the. Or the difficult conversations. You can't. You don't know how to have the difficult conversations or to.

So now we know a little bit about a person, right? Now we know a little bit about something. So now your other question, right.

Where you wanted to go, which is what are you looking for?

Right.

So instead of taking her to like, her perfect situation.

I wonder if there's a question in there that sort of got you to where that now you know, you're talking to someone who kind of deal is working in an environment where she perceives that she's getting the cold shoulder. We don't even know if that's true. Right, right. But what she told you is she ignores him. Right. So a natural. Next question would be. Or way to say something could be. You know, we have a lot of different kinds of personalities in the office here. A lot of people coming in and out. Some people are really great at communicating and some people aren't. What do you think about your communication school skills in general? And you can move it out of that circumstance and just Sort of bring her back into your environment rather than just like, well, what do you want it to look like? Because what's she going to tell you kind of environment do you want to work in? She's going to tell you what everybody will tell you, which is what?

A happy. A happy, good, fun environment.

Yeah. Yeah. So we have that here.

Then we have to figure out what happy, good, and fun means to her.

Exactly. And not everybody's happy, good, and fun every day.

Right?

Yeah. And so I. I think people like the other. My other favorite question is, why do you work? Some people hear that question and they think it's a. It's dumb. It's like, duh. What do you mean, why do I work? I need money.

Right?

Right. Pay for. I have to pay for stuff. I have to pay a mortgage. I. Why? Right. And again, we have to think about the answer we're looking for, not just the question. Okay, so what would be the answer you might hope for when you ask people why they work?

I think I would be happy with. To. To have something to do to. To be active and interact with other people.

Great.

Because that's why I work. Great. Listen.

Exactly. There's not a wrong. There's not a right answer. There's also not a wrong answer. But what we want is to know what we're looking for, because someone else might say, well, I am so in debt. I have got to make a ton of money over the next three years. Well, if that's. If I'm hiring a salesperson, I might want to hear that.

Right.

Because that person's going to hustle. Right. If it's someone else who's just like, I don't know. I don't, you know, I don't really have to. My husband just told me I should get a job. Right. Like it. It's fascinating what people say if you can get a little list of questions that nobody else is asking them.

Right.

Right. So. And then we go five questions deep. So let's just do that one time. So why do you work? I'll do it with you. You. You answer me. Why do you work?

To have something to do. To go interact with other people and get to know people.

And what does that mean for you? How do you know you're having something to do and interacting with people?

I think it's to get to know my community. I feel like, because we are such a community. That's one of the things. So I know, you know, the more I'm out in our community and now I see People and become. Just become a part of the community.

Is that, Would you say that you take pride in the work that you do?

Yes, yes, for sure. Because I'm doing it for. Or again, back to my community. I'm doing it for them. I know I'm going to continue to be around these people for the rest of my life, and I want. I want them to be happy.

So sometimes we have to do things or sometimes we do do things that either don't in this business anyway, where we don't interact with people every day and sometimes we have to do things kind of on our own. How will you feel about that?

Like, what types of things would I be doing that would be on my own?

Well, it depends on the day in the job. But not every day. Every day is not interacting with people is what I'm saying, is that.

Yeah, no, I mean, everybody needs downtime, so fill out paperwork or, you know, take care of the business side of things. So that would be important too.

Okay, so I, I think I'm hearing you say I work because it gives me meaning and purpose and connection. Is that fair?

Yes.

And how do you know if that isn't happening?

If I'm not getting the connection?

How would I know if I'm not getting purpose? I think I would be depressed and sad and grumpy when I would come to work. I'd be like, I don't really want to go.

That's when I quit. That's when I quit. Well, we'll have that conversation before you quit, I suppose, right?

Yes.

Yes, definitely. Yeah. And I think you could even take that kind of an answer to like, well, how do you. What, how do you evaluate that you're doing a good job? There's a lot of connection. There's a. Not a lot of community that we do. But how do you evaluate your own performance? How do you think about yourself doing a good job? Because. And then you could tie it even back to your values, right? How it sounds like you love to work so you can connect with other people. How does that, how does that tie to your attention to details and all of the elements that are. Would be included in the role. But we want, we want to do is tie that. This person is a whole organism, right. They're not just going to be these choppy answers. And so when, when you are sort of rebuilding how you want to hire, my biggest recommendation is that you talk less and you ask fewer questions, but you go further with each one because that's going to show you more about who they are. Anyone can come to one question. Right. Tell me about your current job. Well, it's fine. I just don't really get along with my employer and I'm looking for something new.

Okay.

And what are you hoping for in something new? Right. Like, we don't really know anything about me through that answer.

Right.

And so I just think you could ask four questions and probably know a lot more about a person. Okay. Right.

Yes.

And now that you have experienced this person, you know, every. Every person we bring through our business teaches us something. So she showed you that there are these people who are racist. Right. So there might be an opportunity for a question that says, you know, we practice a really inclusive environment here. We have people from all walks of life who work here. Whatever the right language is for you. Right. I would like to know what your thoughts are about inclusivity.

Okay.

And ask. And somebody. 1. Most people will be like, it's great. I love it. 90% of the people. Right. Some people will be like, I've never heard that word before.

What does that mean?

Right. And every now and then, you know, it'd be. I would love to go back in time and ask that woman that question.

Yes.

See what her answer would be. Right. I love everybody.

So.

So less questions. Don't worry about assessments and all the juicies and all the, like, distractions. Right. We build the job description just as we did in the class. Get all that clear. And then really think about your values. Just write, think about the who you want in here because the skills are more transparent. Those are easier to assess. But I would suggest for the ones that are harder to assess, like attention to detail or initiative or those little things transferring of ownership, responsibility. I would play with, like, a little project thing you could have someone do that gives you some insight into how their brain works.

Fantastic. This has just been fantastic. I'm excited to practice the five.

Stream of five questions. I'm definitely. I'm going to go back to, like, just graduated, ready to get a job and do practice interviews with all. All of my family.

Go do it. It'll be good for them, too. Like, to practice, like, listen, you may get an interviewer like Chris someday, and you need to be on your heel. Let's go. We need to be ready. Yeah.

Because it's.

It's the reason that I like to not let people off the hook or to ask them about something that they just said their own words is it's a way to watch people react to.

A little bit of discomfort. Right. It's like, we've done interviews. We don't do these anymore because I don't really hire. I have three people and that's about it now. But we used to do, like, interviews where we would give feedback on something they gave us to see how they handled it. Some people can take feedback and other people get really defensive. Well, I only did it that way because you said that I had to write, like, fascinating, Right? I have a feeling you give lovely feedback. I don't think you're mean and cruel and vindictive. Right. Like, so if people get uncomfortable with feedback. Good to know. Yeah. So good.

Love it, Love it. Me too. Thank you so much.

Oh, it's my pleasure. We went a little long, so I. I'll see you.

I feel like I'm 90% confident in my.

Let's go. And here's the other thing, right? We're going to do difficult people. We did accountability last week, like the best thing. You have to remember, everybody listening and you. We hire slow, we fire fast. It's such an old, old adage. Everybody says it. It's the truth. If you trust yourself to build a good job description, build a good 3060, 90 onboarding plan, have constant feedback and give people and hold people accountable to the results that they're supposed to deliver, then you should have no reason. And I don't mean to sound like firing fruit, Rita, but we've gotta fire people if they are not doing their job. And if you trust yourself to do that, hiring becomes way less intimidating because then it doesn't. You're only three months in. Oops. Not gonna work out. It's okay. It's not the end of the world. Versus if we hire someone and then we're afraid, we can't fire them. We're stuck with them for two years. That's why we get so afraid to hire anybody. 50, 50. 50% of the people you hire are not going to work out. Just go with it. Just believe me. And if that's true, that doesn't mean we stop hiring. We have to keep going because we have a business to run and we have people. We have products to deliver and services to deliver. So we can't let that make us be all like, I suck, I'm terrible at hiring. Who cares? Go hire another person. Go.

It becomes repetitive. So at that point, you've already created all of these things. You know what your questions exactly. You know what your position is. You know, you've got all of that and it just becomes repetitive. And it doesn't. It's not as hard anymore.

Oh, it's just like. Like if you go to the dentist and you have a cavity, do you're like, well, forget it. I'm not going to brush my teeth anymore.

No, you can't do that. Because you can't do that. Yeah.

We want all the rest to stay.

Exactly.

So, yeah. So.

Yep.

Someone you hired didn't work out, move along. Hire someone else. And yeah. Tweak the process every now.

Okay.

Yeah. All right. I'll see you Friday.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for being here, love. Okay. Have a good.

That was fantastic. Have a good evening.

Take care, love. Bye.

Hey there, gorgeous. Wouldn't it be so cool if we could have a conversation together? I'd love to invite you to join me for beyond the CEO in August in Sonoma. Just go to TheVisionary CEO BeyondCEO. That's TheVisionary CEO BeyondCEO. Add your name and I will send you all the details. It's gonna be so amazing. I hope you'll join us.