The Power of Discomfort in Developing Real Leaders

Foreign.

Hey there, everyone. It's Michelle Arendt, Kris's director of operations. And today's episode is a little different than usual. Chris and I were in the middle of a team meeting, talking about something that actually started with an experience with her pet sitter, of all things. And then it led us into this great conversation about the importance of setting clear expectations when, whether it's at work or at home. And then from there, we found ourselves talking about how uncomfortable people can be with friction and how sometimes that discomfort is exactly what helps us grow. So we decided to just hit record right then and there. So there's no, no fancy studio, no soundproof recording booth, just a real in the moment dialogue. So the sound isn't perfect.

But.

But we do hope that what we talked about really resonates with you. So let's jump in.

It might even just be you and me talking. Is the podcast. Okay, so here's what happened.

So we have, we have a pet.

Sitter that we, that we used for years, that we love and trust. And she comes to the house and, and she's great, but she's not, she's busy. She's not as available as she used to be to us. So we needed, we needed a pet sitter for last week when we had to go to Seattle for Kate's game and to visit my dad. And.

Are you still there?

I am if you're recording it for a podcast. I'm just trying to be quiet.

No, you just go right along. Don't, don't worry about that.

I think we should just record it, see what happens. We'll decide if we like it.

Okay.

Even this part right here. So kind of in a jam. And my husband, Mike. Mike sort of took the job of finding the pet sitter for all the travel we had for, for games. And he, he forgot that we didn't have anybody for the last week when we were out of town. And we didn't realize that until like four days before we were leaving. And we were going to be on Saturday through Wednesday. So anyway, so my assistant had a recommendation who is her neighbor. And so this, her neighbor is young. She just graduated from high school. So she came over on the, a couple days before we were going to leave. And she's lovely, right? She's 18. She's really sweet. The dogs liked her. Like, I'm like, this is going to be fine, right? She's going to be fine. She's just a cute little thing. I might have maybe needed to be a little on edge when I Went to show her how to use the TV and she said, oh, it's okay, I don't watch tv. And we just had a minute because I'm like, oh, you're 18, you don't watch TV.

What?

I said, well, what do you do?

She, she says, I. I read. I'm like, okay, okay, that's a lot.

Of quietness in your head. So.

But I was back.

I was actually sort of admired it.

I was like, wow, what would that be like? Not to watch tv?

Yeah.

Imagine what you could get done in.

Your life if you didn't need to watch your show. Right? Or seven shows.

So anyway, so we leave and our.

Son is covering kind of the first part of the day that we're gone. And then she was supposed to show up at 8 o'. Clock. So I'm at my daughter's game and she, the sitter texts me at 8pm and says, I'm running late. The event I'm attending is running late. I'm not, I can't be there for a little while. And the dogs are fine. They've been alone for probably four hours or so. Whatever. You know, they're puppies still, so their bladders. Anyway, whatever. So I'm like, okay, well what am I going to do? I'm in Seattle, I'm 1500 miles away. So she finally texts me at like 9:35 or something and says, I'm here, the dogs are good. How often does your clock chime?

And I was like, so I have.

A grandmother clock, right? And it's a real one, it's not a battery operated one. It's like the wind up kind of clock, right? You have to pull down the chain and it's weighted and, Right. It's, it's old school. It's really lovely.

And I responded.

I'm like, it goes off every 15.

Minutes and it goes every hour.

Right?

And she responds, oh, I don't think.

I can stay here.

I think, I don't think I'll be able to sleep. And she, so she said, is it okay if I leave the dogs in.

Their crate overnight and go home and come back early?

And I'm like, what? No, you should have told me that when you came over for the meet and greet. Like, I, I don't know what to say. Like, what am I gonna do? I can't, I can't control what she does. I'm not there.

Right? And so she, so she texted me back after that. She said, oh, I will try and see what happens. And I lost my Ever loving mind.

I was like, what kind of bullshit is this? This is this, this is what so many of even my clients talk about.

With people that they're hiring.

It's like I can't handle any discomfort.

So I'm going to go back into my little cocoon where everything is what I like.

And I can't handle your clock.

Your clock is too disruptive. I'm sorry. Right?

Whatever.

Her frickin neurodivergent crazy.

I'm so sick of it. So sick of it. Like, you know what? You made a commitment, dude. You made a commitment to take care of these animals. You, you can't handle a clock.

Oh my God. Okay.

Yes. So I feel you.

Do you feel this? I was just. And then what do you do? You're. But how does somebody.

Like I think about myself when I was 18, if I had, if that.

Had been me, there would be no way I would have been like, I'm.

Sorry, but I can't stay here.

Right? Like I would have my people pleasing would never allow that. I would, I would have to see it through. Right.

Well.

People pleasing, but then also commitment.

Yeah, responsibility.

Commitment used to be commitment.

Right?

Like, like it used to mean if I say yes to you, that I'm gonna do it. Even, even if something else comes.

Yes.

I don't feel like it. Even if this thing is annoying me. I said, I said yes to you and you're depending on me and I'm gonna do it.

Yes. And I don't need to tell you about it. I don't need to call you and say your clock is a problem.

I mean, right?

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Your parents. My parents.

My mother would, if I had called my mom and said, mom, there's a clock, she would have said, okay, put.

Earplugs in, go to the grocery store.

Buy like get over yourself. Put on your headphones. I don't stay awake. You're 18, you're not going to be. Turn on the TV.

Take the clock outside in the garage.

Exactly. That's what I bet when I told Brooke this story, she's like, oh hell, I would have put that clock outside.

Yes.

I'm like, listen, I, I have no control over what goes on in my house when I'm not there. So whatever. Take care of yourself.

Right.

So anyway, so then I, I, we.

Have a rain camera thing. So I looked at the camera when I woke up in the morning at like 6 and she left at like 5 in the morning. She left the house. So I texted her at like whatever time that was 6, 6:30. And said, Hey, I see you left. And she didn't tell me that she was leaving. Are you coming back?

Like, what?

What's going on? And no response. So in that amount of time, Mike and I were both like, okay, we have to come up with plan B. Like, this is not going to work.

Right?

And so we got. Plus our older son, right. Doesn't live very far away. We cajoled him into coming and being, like, sleeping there. He goes to work all day, so. And then we asked our neighbors to come over during the day to let him out and just give him a little attention. So we got that all figured out. And then she did the thing, you know, my thing. This is my least favorite thing that people do. So I texted her after we had it all figured out, probably two and a half, three hours later, I texted her and said, don't come back. You can just give the key to your neighbor who's my assistant. And she immediately replied to that and.

Said, oh, I was just about to go back.

I'm like, no, no, no, no, you weren't. Nope.

That is honestly my biggest trigger.

When people say, when you're like, hey.

Where'S the thing that you said you would.

You would get to me?

I was just working on it.

No, you weren't.

No, you weren't. Oh, I was just about to get it to you.

No, you weren't. No, you weren't.

Now, maybe Once out of 10 times.

Someone is act that's genuine, but most of the time, no, you forgot or you don't want to, or you put it off and oh, my God. So she wrote back after I said that, and she said, okay, I'm really sorry. Thank you.

That's the end of that pet sitter. So.

So that's what I wanted to talk.

To you about today was we have a new pet sitter coming.

And I'm like, I want to.

I want a docusign.

She has the sign that has all.

The things in it that I want to verify and confirm.

Because clearly, just asking your local yoga.

To come and be your pet sitter is not enough. You've got to flush out, like, I'm like, I think I need to set better expectations for my pet sitter on all the things.

It is a job.

It is a job.

Yes, it is. It is an agreement that both of you are entering into. So you need to be clear about. I mean, it really. I mean, that's really what it boils down to.

Yeah.

And I was talking to Mike about it.

I'm like, you know, there's so many things because we've had a pet sitter for so long that I sort of take for granted. And as I. The more. The more I thought about it, the more I was like, okay, wait, people come and stay in your house, and then they act. They live in your house. Like, they live in their house, Right? And I'm like, oh, that probably means.

I should be more clear about how.

We live in our house. And if you're going to be living in our house, there's some things like we don't need in the bedrooms, and we don't eat on the couch, and we don't eat our food. Our. Right. Like, yeah, we, you know, we. We put. Put. We use a bath mat shower.

I don't know. I feel like there's things that I take for granted that people know, but.

I mean, there's a lot of things that people don't do the same as. As everybody. Right. That. What is that? What is that? What is that line or that quote? Like, being in someone else, hanging out with someone else's family is like going to a foreign country.

Yes.

Yes, I know, because you do travel with people, too, sometimes. So I know. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, you guys do what?

No, you do that. What do you do? You do that with your carrots.

That's weird.

Why do you do that?

Right? Well. And that's, you know, that's interesting that you say that, because I had a moment like that this weekend because I stayed at my friend's house, and everybody, all four of us, have different expectations of the people who spend the night at our houses. Like, we have get togethers. Like, if I go to Karen's house, then I know she wants me to strip the beds. She does not want me to put. She does not want me to put my wet towels with the sheets. She wants me to put my sheets separately from my wet towels.

Oh, my God.

Counter in her laundry room. Oh, but then. But then at Mandy's house, Mandy, do you want me to, you know, tell me what you want me to do before I leave in the morning. She's like, just. Just strip the beds and leave them. It's fine. I'll get everything else. Okay. And then when they come to my house, I'm like, what are you talking about? Just leave. I got it.

Yeah.

Like, I don't want you stripping the beds. I don't want you doing anything. Just.

Yeah.

You know, like, so. So I was thinking about that As I was thinking about my child and how the culture, like, you know, to put it into a business perspective, what the expectations are. And I don't think I ever taught Mason, hey, when you go spend the night at somebody else's house as an adult, not as a kid, but as an adult, when you go spend the night at somebody else's house, you at least need to ask, hey, what do you want me to do about the sheets? Do you want me to strip the bed? Do you want me to make it. Do you want me to. Where do you want me to put these towels? Yeah, like, I just. I don't think I ever.

That is such a good point. It's such a good point because it's.

I just don't ask that. And it doesn't make. It doesn't make my friends wrong for wanting me to help strip the beds.

Not at all.

No, My point, it's just we all have different ways of what we expect in our home. And, yeah, I think it's a great. I think it's a great example of. What's that quote? Unexpressed. Unexpressed expectations lead to resentment or something like that. Right? Like, yeah, if you, if you don't. If you don't set it, Set clear expectations in the beginning, then it just. It can fall apart so easily.

It's so good.

It's so interesting because I have never. I. I realize the same thing with my kids. I've never really had that conversation. And. And of course, they come to our house, right. When my kids come home to visit.

Quote, unquote, put in air quotes.

They don't strip the bed. They don't do anything. They just leave. They leave the unmade. I'm like, oh, I need to teach them. There needs to be hashtag rules just for my own visiting adult children.

Yeah.

Never thought about it.

It's all different. Yeah.

I love this.

Yeah. Listen to what we're learning from the pet sitter who couldn't handle the clock.

I just can't.

I just can't. And I just. You know what I also was thinking? I'm like, I feel bad for this child. Like, this child has not. Like, how is she going to make it in the world if.

If a clock is. Makes her want to go home?

Like, how she was telling me the.

Day I met her that she was going to go travel abroad.

I'm like, how are you going to. Do you know how many fucking clocks there are in Europe?

There's cuckoo clocks over there. They have cuckoos.

Well.

Yes. And Go, please, Please go and learn.

Yes.

This is what life is really like.

Yes. Yes.

You have to adapt. You have. You have to have.

Yes.

Friction.

And I just think we don't. We just. We don't have. We don't have. Weird. We have not raised a generation of. Of people, humans, whatever, students.

Yeah.

To know how to deal with friction.

Yeah.

Well, you know, this is. This is interesting.

This is the other thing I was thinking about. And, um. And we can decide if we want to keep this in our podcast this week or not. But I was listening to a whole thing about Bernie. Not Bernie. Mark Bernioff. I don't know his name. He's the founder CEO of Salesforce, and he said some derogatory things about San Francisco, and of course, he's from there, and Salesforce is there, and he. You know, he. He had a bad experience when he went into. He lives on the big island of Hawaii now, so he's got his. His compound with gates and guards and all the things, and. But he went into San Francisco and he ran into some homeless people or something and then made some really derogatory comments about San Francisco, which, you know, it's no secret that after Covid. During COVID After Covid, it really. San Francisco really suffered. And. But the. Statistically speaking, it's really changing. It's improving. Crime is down. Homelessness is down. It's really getting better, significantly. But regardless, it got me thinking about what you just said, because I started to think about my childhood, and I was thinking. I was like, is it all really worse? Everybody wants to say that everything's worse than it used to be when they were kids. Right. San Francisco was never like this. Right.

And I actually disagree.

So I have always hated San Francisco, even though I lived 15 minutes from it. When I was in college in San.

Diego, we had people doing heroin in.

Our carport where we lived. We had homeless people everywhere, all over the beach in San Diego. They used to come to our door and ask for food.

My family lived in New York city.

In the 70s and 80s, and when I would go there, my aunt was always like, make sure you don't wear too short shorts. And you always keep your money, you know, in a belt, not in. In your pocket or in a pocketbook. You've got to be really safe. You know, there was always this kind of, like, city.

There's just a city.

Right? Like, living in cities is. It's a different. It's a different environment than when you're in the. In the suburbs. But I think we've gotten so gentrified and so suburbanified that people, like, live in their little world with their cute little streets and their little stoplights and their little parks and their little things, and they're. They.

They come into a city and they.

Think the world's going to hell in a hand basket.

And it's like, no, actually, this is. If you went to 1702, France, Paris, this is what it would look like. There would be people lying in the street. There would be people. This is what has always been the case, because people who don't have enough, that's where they gravitate.

Because there's more access to things in a city. Right. Than in the suburbs.

And so I just think that we've.

Become.

So hypersensitized because we're not exposed to a whole part of the world, of the human experience, that we think there's something horribly wrong when we get exposed to it.

But, no, there's nothing wrong.

This is a human experience. You're just hidden from it. And so now. But that discomfort makes people think that there's something broken. And I. I just love the word friction, because I think there's a lot of people who live very frictionless lives when they have to encounter a moment of discomfort that they are not used to, their reaction is either to get the heck away from it or to judge it so much that it may be that there's something horribly wrong.

No, it's just not what you're used to. But it's.

It's okay. It's gonna be okay.

Right? So.

Interesting. Anyway, I. I feel that, right? I live in my little suburban bubble, and when I go into the cities, I'm like, oh, okay.

You know, it just feels.

There's so much more energy, and there's so many more people, and there's all sorts of people and lots of people talking to themselves and lots of people, right?

There's just all sor. People you don't see every day on.

Your way to Safeway or the Piggly Wiggly.

Yeah.

So the moral of the story is, if you don't like a chiming clock, you should get one, because here's the. Here's the capstone to this. When I got the clock, which I.

Probably talked about this on a podcast so long ago, I. I wanted a grandmother clock. And then right after I decided I wanted a grandmother clock, one came up for sale on next door down the street from my house for $170. And I could. I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh, My God, I am meant to have this clock. And so I drove down the street and I paid the $170 and I got it home and I set it up and I'm so excited. I got it all wound up. I got the, you know, the weights all set up and. And I put it in our living room. And I grew up with chiming clocks. My mom had three in our house. So every. Everywhere in the house, there were clocks going off all the time. And the first time the clock chimed.

My youngest son freaked out. He's like, what?

What is that?

We can't have this clock. Oh, my God. I'm never going to sleep. It's terrifying. It's like. It's like from a horror movie, you know?

Like, right. That's their frame of reference.

I'm like, no, no, no, no. It's soothing. It's lovely. It'll make you sleep. It's happy you. And you won't even hear it. After a while. You won't even hear it. And he was like, no.

Right. It was awful. Then for literally about two weeks, this.

Kid was just suffering with the clock. Like, please, mom, can you turn it off at night? Oh, my God.

Right?

No, I can't.

Nope.

It's our clock.

We love the clock. I'm keeping the clock.

And so I called him after this whole pet sitter thing, I'm like, check this out. And he thought it was so hysterical because now he never hears the clock.

Right. Of course he doesn't hear the clock. And he kind of likes the clock. So if anybody's listening and you are that person and you can't stand a chiming clock, my advice to you is, let's single handedly read a resurgence in the clock industry and everybody should go buy a chiming clock. That's my advice. And you will not hear that clock. Within a week, you will stop hearing it and it will blow your mind. And then when you go into a house that doesn't have a clock, it will feel quiet and weird because that's what happens to me now. Like, it doesn't feel right. There's no clock. Why isn't there a clock?

How can anybody not want a clock?

Anyway, that's my story.

Expect memories of my parents because they had clocks, they had three. And they. And my grandmother would set them amended apart so that. So at 12, you got to hear 12 from one, and then you got to hear 12 chimes from the other and then the other. Right, Perfect. So I. Yep.

So good job, grandma.

I'll totally Yep. I told. It's for. It's taking me back. Yes, but it does take. You have to, you have to get used to it.

You do.

Yeah, yeah.

You have to get into it. So.

Yeah, well, we all need a little friction is what is the moral. Everybody can handle a little difficult. It doesn't mean that we have to.

Run back into our little bubble. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with other people. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It just means you run into something that makes you go, ooh, I'm uncomfortable with this. I wonder why. And then that's an opportunity for your own growth, not for everybody else to change so you can feel better.

And when you work with people, and when you work with people who you are seeing this same, this in that they have, yes, they need a little resistance in their life. They write, they need some pushback. They, they need to learn how to work through it. But if you hire, if you hire this age group, then you kind of have to, you kind of have to just put that on your list of, okay, well, this is what I have to do. Like, I teach them.

Yeah.

Oh, no, no. This is, this is just part of adulting.

This is what it's like to work.

In a professional environment. And so let me teach you that you're not going to die from this. And this is how we can go about easing into some of this discomfort.

Yeah, you can have a conversation with Carol.

In the programming department, even though she makes you feel really uncomfortable.

You can do that.

You can have that.

And, and I know we're picking a.

Little bit on the younger people, but listen, I know some 58 year olds who don't like friction either. They don't like difficult. They avoid all of it. So I do think examining how the comfort of our lives has made it easier to be uncomfortable is a factor. And I get it. I'm, I'm the first to be like, I'm annoyed. Like, when things don't work the way that I think they should, I'm the first to sort of be like this. I'm uncomfortable with this. But at the same time.

I don't, I don't usually quit and run away. I suck it up.

So, yeah, anyway, and that's a good point.

That is a good point. I want to say one other thing too. I think once when you work with people who maybe have been with you a long time and they're getting up in age, just like I'm 55, so I'm you know.

Yeah. You're getting up there.

I am. But what my point is, I feel a lot of times like I am. It's okay for me to not want to be uncomfortable because I have put in my time. Oh. Younger years or whatever, and I. I have to really think about do I want to be that. That person, or do I want to continue to grow and evolve and do hard things and be uncomfortable. And I think a lot of times adults, when, especially if they worked in the same company for a long time, they start to feel entitled.

Yes.

Less friction.

Yeah.

Right. Like, it's easier to not have friction or resistance. And so I'm just not going to deal with it because. Well, I'm getting. I'm older. Right. I've put in my time. I've. I've gone through the, you know, the tough parts. And so I don't want to deal with that anymore. So I'm not going to.

Yes.

And then I. I kind of think, yeah, no, that's not. That's not who I want to be.

Right.

Like, I want to. I. Because we're going to have those tough moments.

Yes.

Forever. And so I just want to. I don't. I don't want to be that person. I just want to be someone who can not be so set in my ways and be open and be uncomfortable if that's what needs to happen. So I think. I think calling people's attention to it to say, hey, like, take a look at this. Is this who you really want to be? Is this.

Yeah.

You know, and understanding the benefits of not throw it in the towel and being uncomfortable at every little thing and being so set in your ways that you don't grow.

Yeah. So I 100 agree with you, and I definitely feel that way. I hit that wall sometimes. Like, I shouldn't have to deal with this anymore. I'm done. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want this to be hard anymore. I'm tired. I don't want to. Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah. But I. I think this. I think, you know, what do they say? Like, there's a statistic that's like, you're the. You're the most likely to die within the first year of retiring. It's like this. It's where the highest. The biggest death rate for people is the year after they retire. And I think that probably is a factor because you don't have any. You're no longer engaged in a way that even if it's uncomfortable, you're not. You're not thinking, you're not driving, you're not ideating, you're not solving. And I also think people. Interesting. Yeah, they. My dad was just telling me this. His cardiologist was like this amazing cardiologist. He retired at like 58, and he died two weeks after he retired. Had a heart attack. And yeah, like, it's. It's something to do with, like, you also gun for it. Like, you. You gun, gun, gun. You go, go, go, go, go. And then you stop. And yeah, your body just is like, okay, we're done. Anyway, that's a little morbid, but I do agree with what you're saying. Like, and I check myself a lot. You know I do. Especially when it comes to funnels.

Yeah, right.

Right.

All the things in the business.

You'll be happy to know I've signed up for two new classes to learn two new things. So.

Okay.

I keep putting myself out there. Like, there's.

There's going to be another thing I'm going to learn. Here we go.

Okay, Here we go. And then therefore, I get to learn.

You get to learn. And if you want to earn, you got to keep learning. Earning equals or learning equals?

Earning.

Yes, yes. So if you're listening to this and you resist all things that you feel friction up against, that just means it's time to learn.

So you better go sign up for something right now. Maybe the Sage master mini mind Mini mastermind.

What is it?

Sage mini mastermind. Yeah, we should do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

That'll stretch for sure.

That'll stretch. We'll have fun. Stretching.

Stretching your brain. Calisthenics for the mind.

Sage mini mastermind.