Women Who've Sold Their Business: Andrea Wagner | E170

My goal really is.

That, as you know, this is my perspective. But as a. As a Gen X woman, we've now just watched this big wave of women becoming successful entrepreneurs and having their own businesses and really finding a whole new landscape where they can win and thrive and create their own world. And then now it's starting to seem like there's this other wave of women selling those businesses and benefiting from their 15, 10, 12, 30 years of effort and work. I've just been realizing there's just so little conversation for women. You know, I think if you know the right people, you can have conversations about selling and who are the right people to talk to and what are the resources you need and what should I be doing to prepare? So I just kind of popped this thing out on my Instagram a couple weeks ago and just said, listen, if you've sold a business, I would love to talk to you. I want to do a series on talking to women who sold businesses, because from what I can tell, everybody has a very different experience. And so I just wanted to put something together for the people who listen to this podcast.

So we just build our own acumen here in a way that. That seems right for the women who are listening. So that's the goal. So tell us a little bit about the business that you did sell. I want to kind of get into what you. The business you had and, you know, what made you make that decision. I'm kind of curious how you got where you are today.

Okay.

But I also want to talk about your new business.

Yeah.

Which is fabulous.

Yeah.

So the business that I just sold with two other partners, two other founders, it was a sterile manufacturing of drug product business. Now, we had worked together in a prior business and sold that in 2010. So that business was a learn, a bootstrap, learn as you go type business. That was not the way to learn how to do a sterile manufacturing business. And it was brutally hard, this business. We knew what we did wrong, so we said, okay, we're going to do new technology. We're going to drive the future. So we had this new technology that was just coming out. We were the first adopters of it. We put it in and we showed people that this could make. This could happen. And what happened? Of course, everybody started switching over, because if little bitty Berkshire Sterile could do it, then why aren't you doing it, too? We pushed the envelope. We got a jump start of about five years on the rest of the industry, and we really captured a lot of business. And it wasn't just the equipment that really attracted people, but we also knew how to put people around it. Like, you have quality systems, you have engineering, you have process engineering, you have quality control, which is laboratory type stuff. So we knew how to structure it from the prior experience. There aren't a lot of women owned businesses and in fact only about 3% of them are at the C level. Women in general. So, so that's why a lot of women don't know other women, because there aren't that many women that are doing this. And I would love to see more women doing these things. And I think there's a lot of hurdles. You know, for example, you know, they talk about imposter syndrome, but maybe it's just complete lack of knowledge. So unless you're out of C suite, you're not really learning how businesses run. So the whole goal here is just to get more women into this field.

Yeah, I, I completely agree. I think it's. Even if they've started a business and people don't even think that it's sellable. Do you know what I mean? It's like it doesn't even occur to me. I, I, I remember a, a former client of mine, now very good girlfriend, Eleanor Beaton. We were at a, an event and she was talking about the founder of, I think it's the, the Duolingo guy. And he got like, in 2016.

He had this idea and he went in the world and he said, I have this idea. And he got $20 million from investors before he ever had a product.

And it took him six years. He built a team, he hired all the engineers, he hired all the pieces and parts. Britain actually have a product to sell for six years. And she said to all of us, she said, what could you create.

If you had six years and $20 million and you knew you didn't have to deliver it in like three weeks? Right, right. And it was just such a, it's to your point, it's just, it's a whole mindset and like a, it's like somebody said to me once, it's like a color I didn't even know existed.

Well, okay, so we're talking about women. Women are severely disadvantaged. And it continues. So in 2016, the same time frame, or could have been 2018, they got about 2.4, 2.2% of all the private equity money last year. They have 1.8%. So it's like they don't get any money to do their businesses. They have to bootstrap if they have to go Borrow from friends and family. Occasionally you'll see a woman that's broken through. And then the question is, is, well, how did you do it? And, you know, the answer is usually, well, I work for a private equity firm, and so I knew a lot of guys that would give me money. And I'm like, maybe we should all go work for a private equity company, you know, or create them. Right, or create them. Like Horizon Funding. Right?

Exactly.

Yeah. And so we're starting to see, Just starting. So the other problem is, is that women traditionally have gone into nonprofit and not for profits. A lot of women, if you talk to them, even the ones that have had companies and they sell it, what are you going to do next? Oh, I'm going to, you know, do my passion project, which is a nonprofit. And I'm like, so why don't you reinvest that and do something with your passion project that would be profitable and give money to, you know, all of these nonprofits that exist already and they're like, huh? I said that would be actually more fundamental because then you would get more women that would see you as a mentor to doing, you know, that activity of building businesses.

It's an important message. And it's, you know, I think there's a lot of, A lot of belief that starting a company that's for profit is harder. There's guilt over thinking you should make more money when there's a lot of, you know, there's just so many things I think that women stumble over.

Well, I know, I know women that are in the for profit world, and they also have the, you know, nonprofit on the side that they're working on, and they struggle with that because they're so used to giving value. And with nonprofit, you give value, but you're asking people to donate, right? They're, they're personally not getting anything but the value that they're giving back to society. So how do you framework that into a sales pitch? And people are not good with that. It's like they're not. In general, entrepreneurs can be one of two ways. They can be very technically oriented or they can be very sales oriented. So the ones that tend to be sales oriented tend to do better. Because you can make a product. If you can't sell it, then you don't have a business if you're a person that is very technically focused, and you need to recognize that and hire somebody that is going to be sales focused so that you marry those two together and do the best. And I would also say that in the Perfect trifecta is getting somebody financially focused. Yes, you have, you know that. 3. And when I worked with my two other co founders on Berkshire Sterile, we went into it, we had the cfo, we had me on the BD side, and then we had this other person that was on the, the operational side, you know, he could build it.

Right.

And it was absolutely the perfect match. And I was like, this is really interesting. And I was able to take a lot of lessons from that away too.

So it's so vital, whoever you're doing, all of that it's, I, I caught, for me, it's a four legged stool. It's having all of those pieces and parts that can handle the parts that you can't do and all vice versa. But you're still aligned to the vision and the promise and your values and. Right.

It's, yeah, you have to believe it. So people would often say to me, I don't know how you can remain so optimistic. I said, because you're, you're in this, you know, la la land in your mind that says, this is how we gotta go and we are gonna go regardless of the hurdles that we will have to face. If you don't have that type of mentality, you can get pushed back and never recover. Some things that women should be aware of too is that if you don't have to give or give away any part of your business, don't.

Why?

Because, because you're going to be working real hard. Okay. And at the end of the day, it's yours. You get to make decisions. So I've talked to a few women who had a great idea and then they brought on private equity and they were originally like a 50 or 75% ownership and now they're below 51%. So once you delve below the 51, you are no longer, you no longer own your business.

So, and a lot of times, not always.

You are exited at that point from the business. There's quite a few women who get to the point where they lose their own CEO position or president position in the company because the people can come.

In and oust you. You know, there's, there's no reason why they need to keep you if they own the business and they control it. So these are all things that you need to be aware of. And maybe it's okay if you grow a little slower. You need to think about this going in. You need to say, okay, I need a couple million dollars. Can I get a couple million dollars from a bank? I might be able to do that. And if I can get it from the bank, that's the cheapest money you can get. I don't care if they're charging it 10%. That is the cheapest money you're going to get because you can pay that off and you have no equity in it. And then there's this other thing where, especially if you're going in a loan, you're scared. There's some level of you that has fear. And you know that if you don't make the numbers or if you don't do this, you won't be able to afford the employees. So the thought of, well, maybe if I sell some of my business and then I could have a partner and I could have a partner that's willing to help me, you know, divest and take a little money off the table. That's good. That's great. We did that actually at Berkshire Style, too. We sold 25% and we were able to retire one of the founders because he was at retirement age and he deserved to retire and he had stuck it out for five years. Big deal. Right. And then we took a little bit of money off the table too, but it was only 25%. So we still own the majority of it, the two remaining partners. So you still had control of the decision. So those are things I would recommend, but do not go below 51%. The other thing that a lot of entrepreneurs do is they do it like, I want to build this business in this place because I want to help people. I want to help them grow. I want to do good things for people. And you know, this is a great thing. And by the way, I was one of those people too. But the reality is that by you putting a business. And we put a business in economic depressed area, which is now in pretty good shape right now. The. And we knew that business would survive forever because that's how those manufacturing facilities are. We built it, though, to sell it. But you can say, okay, yeah, if I put this business here, I'm going to help the community, I'm going to help the people. But ultimately, you build this.

It's a lot of work. Yeah. And I think here, I think I love the perspective that you're bringing because I do think it's great if you have a wonderful vision and promise for what your business will do in the world. But we have to always remember, I think everybody who works in a business, not just the leadership, employees too, like, the reason we're all here is to deliver a result. Right. We're not. It's lovely when everybody feels good and gets good things because we're here. But that business was born to deliver an outcome, and that's what everybody's focused on. Should always be right. And in your case, your ultimate result was to sell that business. But in order to sell it, you had to create a profitable, successful business. Right. You had to have a team of people who were aligned to the results and the expectations of the business. So I just think that's such a clean perspective, and I think sometimes it does get a little lost when we get a little too tangled up in the people and everybody's feelings and, you know, the service of the business over the productivity or the success of the business. That's why a lot of people struggle with accountability. Right. That we get into. So what I would love to know is when did you know it was time to sell? How did you know?

So a lot of times the market tells you because they'll start getting people that come to you and want to buy it. So that process started for us in 2018, actually. So, you know, we opened the doors to do business in 2016.

Wow.

People are starting to say, hmm, this might be a bit.

But you. When did you sell, though? You just sold just in 22, right?

23.

23. Okay.

Yeah. Wow. October 2023. So. But we pre sold. So this is kind of interesting, this unique, unique situation, if you will. So if you're in a market that's highly, you know, wanted, okay. And it's profitable and such people investors will be looking to, oh, who's the next up and coming person? Who can we buy, you know, and then make them great and then sell them later after we develop a little bit more. So as I said, we were young and we were technology wave. Right. So in 2019, we were definitely getting a lot of interest. So we pre sold it, meaning we signed an agreement where we sold 25% of it and then they had an option in three years to buy the rest of it. Okay. Or they didn't have to buy the rest of it and we could buy it back from them, the 25%, or we could co sell it to somebody else. So it was a very unique agreement, but it's an. That most people have never seen and should know about. So you can resell the negative, the positive and negative. So you agree on a set, even a price multiplier. Okay. So the negative for us was the multiplier increased over time. The. So we didn't get as much value. The positive for them is increased over time so they got more value. Right. And vice versa. That can happen. So you could say okay, here's the multiplier and we get there. If it's lower, you're still going to pay me that or you don't have to because you can get out. And they would probably say oh, we went out because the multiplier slower.

So did you, did you end up selling to the people who bought it to that. Okay, okay. And, and then from a sale perspective, one of the other questions I've had for everyone is what was your role post sale with the business? Did you stay involved in it at all?

We also had a unique situation there too. So as part of the pre sale agreement is we didn't have to, we didn't stay on. So a lot of, a lot of deals require and want the owners to stay on and they definitely want us to stay on. They, they wanted me to stay on but I was like no, I'm done. Many of them want you to stay on. They want you to stay on for at least a couple of years. So you know this is very. And they'll do an earn out. Yeah, you can wait it at all costs.

Least avoid 100%.

You don't have control and you have to make certain numbers and they can't literally get in your way. But literally they can get in your way. Unless you don't own anymore. I say like when you sell business it's like selling a house and if you're still living in it with somebody else owns it, it's like a little odd. So you don't own it somebody else's house. Right.

And you don't have to make the decisions. Yeah, yeah. There's somebody that I know who's going through that right now and it's really, really challenging. The CEO that bought the business and took over is running it into the ground and she's got a five year contract.

So the norm is like a year or two, never five. So it's really important to understand the norms that your M and A attorney can really help with that. Like but that's really important. The smaller the better you, if you're getting along with them, you can always fail on. But most business owners.

There'S different visions. Right. You don't want in control.

Yeah. I, and in my former life I used to work with a private equity firm and they would bring me in to coach the leader who took over after they bought a company.

One in particular I did that with the founder did hang out and the founder and his son stayed and made it very, very difficult for the new president to implement change and to move things along. There was this factioning that was happening. So, you know, I know it can go all sorts of different directions. Right. It's always rooted in communication and clarity and, and those agreements. And I, in my experience, right. The two of the other women I've talked to so far, they both had three month agreements and then they were, they exited and that seemed, that seemed like it was the best option. Just hang out for a little bit and short.

And that's great. You know, if you can, like, for me, it happened. I was gone that day and it's hard. I've talked to other business owners and it's like you've cut the cord.

Did you see Jim Collins presentation when we were at wpo? There was that one part where somebody asked about selling and I thought his advice was so sound. He said, be careful.

Be careful. Make sure that the thing that you want to sell isn't also the thing that you love to have. Right.

Yeah, but that's, that's the other thing. Right. It's like, I agree with him, but whenever you sell it, I mean, we have an attachment to like, for me, Berkshire Cheryl, I'm super proud that I was part of that and I'm super happy that everybody is, you know, doing so well and it's just, it gives me a lot of pride. But I had to deal with the fact that I was leaving and I took a year to like forecast that into me because I knew it was going to be hard. And if you plan and you plan for your next steps, you're going to do so much better with that. And I know other women and men for that matter, that are just like, it's like grief, it's absolute grief. So I agree with Jim Collins, but I also think that if you need to sell or you want to sell, you're still going to go through that process.

Yes. If you can't get away from it. In fact, one of the women I talked to this week, she said, nobody prepared me. This is her exact quote. Nobody prepared me for the existential crisis I was going to go through after I sold my business.

Because ptsd, honestly, it's terrible. It's like, oh, I should have. Oh, oh, I'm remembering this. Oh, I can't believe. Yeah. So I think if you just like mentally prepare yourself and figure out what you're going to do next, and believe me when I say it's not being on the golf course the rest of your life. It's just not going to happen. So you need to think, okay, what am I going to delve into the day one, upon leaving, maybe I go on a great vacation. Okay. But right after that vacation, I need.

To get into something recently exit, take that vacation. And then, you know, it's like the.

I laugh when I'm saying this. This is tongue in cheek when I say this. The great wise philosopher, Dr. Phil.

Oh, yes. I just.

I'll never forget, though. He's.

He said this was years ago.

I saw him say this when he used to say things that I thought were interesting. He said a racehorse needs to run. And I always kind of stuck with me that, you know, you take a woman who is incredibly industrious and creative and innovative and a visionary, if she doesn't have that next vision, right, it's paralyzing. So what is your. Or what was your next vision? Because I actually own one of the things that you made as a result of it. But tell us what you did when you finished.

So there's several things that I am. I am working on. So one of them was the sweater company called Luxe Lined. So that was something that about 20 years ago, I went and I wanted a line sweater. My friend was a designer. She went to risd. She was New York, blah, blah, blah. And I asked her for a line sweater because I get itchy with it. You know, wools and cashmere. It's really itchy. It's uncomfortable. So I had to wear a turtleneck and a shirt underneath. And it just doesn't. It doesn't fit right.

It's hot. I mean, that's a lot of clothes already with wool.

So I went back to her and I said, hey, you know, this is still an impossible dream, you know. And she said, oh, no, actually, I think we can do it. I've worked with this. Blah, blah, blah. And so she put together. So I hired her to put together, you know, the designs and get some samples made. So I got. I'm like, oh, my God.

Yeah, they're so amazing.

Yes, they're so amazing. Yeah, they feel like butter on your skin. They regulate and there's no static and you're perfectly warm or cool or whatever you need to be. And anyway, so that's been. That was launched in the end of November, beginning of December last year.

And we'll include the web address for that, but it's l-lined.com is the website.com.

L u x l I n e d dot com.

Well, and the product you know, just. Just as somebody who I, you know, when I met you and you had all those samples and it was a chilly, you know, Colorado Springs evening in May, and I put that one on and I just. It was so delicious. It was like, just draped on my skin. I was so immediately warm but not hot.

So it's just part of it irritating you at all.

It's such a great, great idea. Can I ask you a quick question? This is sort of related, but a little left field. But, you know, one of the things that is very clear to me talking to you is that there's two things I've noticed when you decide, you just know.

You just know.

I'm going to. I'm going to. I'm going to figure this out. I'll make it work or not, but I'm just. I'm going to go. I'm going to do it. And that also you leverage others where, you know, a lot of female entrepreneurs would have this idea and then bust out the sewing machine. Right? You know what I'm saying? And they would make their own prototypes and then they would. And so this, this. I'm going to be leading the sage retreat here in a couple days. And one of the things that I. We're going to talk about is how to believe in yourself as. And believe that you do not have to be the primary doer to achieve the results that you want. So many people think they have to do it for it to be the way they want. So I'm just curious what that is for you. Like, where have you always been like that? What. What is it that you think in your mind that when you have an idea, it isn't just, well, I'll do it. You. You think, who can do this?

Okay. So I think women are perfectly adapted to this.

Okay?

If we say, like, this is a women thing, right? So as women, we are faced with thousands of problems to do, and we have to juggle a lot of balls, right? So I learned through the, you know, thing that through building these things or helping to build them is that if you outsource things, if you can get somebody that's really good at it to do it better than you, that's a. Okay, so you can then focus on something else that you could get somebody that's better than you to do, and then you can focus on the other thing so you can literally grow this thing so much quicker.

Right?

And I think women, we don't have to be the one that has to do it. All right? We say we do it all. We do. We say that all the time. Well, I did it all. Like, I raised the kids, I took care of the house, I did the laundry, you know, and we do do that. But if we were given resources, like, we also arranged a daycare, we arranged our opportunity to go out with our husband, we arranged to go on vacations. So we're doing all this multitasking and we're, like, using people. Not using them, we're paying them, but we're pulling resources in to take care of all these things we got to do. And, like, you do that in a business, too, right?

Yeah. Right.

You hire a housekeeper when you get to. Right. You ask the housekeeper to do your ironing, or maybe you don't iron at all.

Although there are a lot of women who won't hire a housekeeper because they feel guilty. Once you realize that that works everywhere, it's the most liberating way to live because you don't have to deliver on the very thing you see. You. You can corral the minds and hearts and of. And hands, literally, of others to get that done.

And they're better at it because.

Yeah.

Than you. Right.

Yeah.

And here's like I described this. This is your bandwidth. Right. Can't get any bigger, and it can get smaller, but your bandwidth can. Cannot. Is not infinity. Okay, so that person that said, oh, I can't. I feel guilty hiring a cleaner.

Okay.

Obviously has it within their bandwidth to clean. Like, I can clean the house. You can clean a house. But is my time better spent hiring somebody to do that and doing something else to create a business or be more women? Create businesses or giving, you know, that support or whatever, so.

And also paying somebody else. Like.

Yes. You're putting your money back into money flowing.

Yes. Keep that money flowing in to other women who have businesses. Because. Yeah, I agree. Like, it isn't necessarily common. A lot of women will tend to have the idea and then think they have to be the one who at least gets it started. And then they'll figure out. And then, of course, the team part can get very frustrating if you think you know how to do it better than anybody else does.

Well, yeah, you do have to give up some control. You have to be okay with some mediocrity. Yeah.

It's a little bit average every now and then. Right. B minus. That'll get it done.

You know, they used to have the saying, it's good enough for government work.

You know that saying. Yeah, it's good enough for government work. We're good. Let's Move on.

Let's move on. Yes. Yeah, that's. I love it. We're not getting graded here. Okay, so you have your Lux line and then you also have your horizon, right?

Yes, I have a couple of co founders in that, Karen Burkhart and Colleen Klein. So that that is. Is being put together. And we're interested in funding women owned businesses only. And we're also interested in funding them so that they can reach higher values. So, for example, they started their business, they bootstrapped it, they understand what it is to run a business, and they need some money to build a facility. They need some money to buy a piece of equipment.

And so hire a key player.

Hire a key player, do a sales, marketing plan, whatever it is. And because we come with different expertise, our group, little group, we can also help them do better. Like we had somebody that came to us and they needed a loan, they need a loan. So we do loans as well.

Well.

And it's like, okay, great, no problem. And then we said, well, the first thing that you need to do because your business is growing so fast is you need to work with your bank to get a higher credit line. And so she goes, oh, okay, yeah, I will do that. And so we got the loan paper together. And then we go back, she goes, you know what, I got a bank, a different bank, and they're going to give me the whole credit line. I don't need your money. And we're like, that's great. That is wonderful. Like, so that was a win for us. But like, okay, she listened to us, she did what she needed to do, and she's going to continue working in that vein and she'll come back to us if she needs money in the future. So. So that's another thing that we're interested in doing. This is our give back. Okay. Like doing good things, you know, but this is for profit, right? Yeah, we didn't earn any money on that.

But you will. There'll be another one. Yeah, yeah, that's. And so are you doing that in year for. Theoretically for a percentage of the business, or are you doing those more as loans or grants or. They're both.

So we can get equity. Give money. Get equity. We can board seeds too. We can give money as a loan. We can give loan like those collateralized things too, like what the state does, loan guarantees. And we can also have it where you give a loan and then it converts to equity. So there's several different models. And I think there's a lot of women that could use this and we have our expertise, so we can also help them, you know, just help support them. So I think this is really needed. And I think more women will do this. And we have a lot of women that we know that would also like to be involved in it. And it's individual. It's like almost like an angel investment. So say, I want to put more in it than say, Karen does. I can do that. Okay. Or I want to invest in this. Karen doesn't. That's fine. And as we collect more people like you, Chris, say you wanted to be an investor, we'd say we put you on a list. And then as opportunities arose, we'd give you a call and say, hey, you want to, you know, listen in on this and see if it's something that would, you'd like to be involved in, but you'd be involved in it as an individual.

So I think if you, if the three of you ever thought you would want to. I think that you three having a podcast.

Yeah.

Talking about, like, how you even got this going and the kinds of decisions that you guys are making and what you're looking at and why you do and don't choose or opt to invest or fund or give loans, like, this is the kind of acumen that I think is invaluable. And it's just like everything else, it's like happening in little pockets. And so it's there, it's, there's a, there is a gap here. And I think that when you are, I think that these conversations start and are more readily available to women who are running eight figure businesses.

Right.

But a woman who's running a $1.5 billion business, she's not in these conversations. But she should be.

Yeah. Because you want to get her to attend.

And just to start, like, is there advice like, what, what, what could, what could these people be doing today? Right. Instead of waiting until she hits 10 million. Right. Your point? And then it's like that first business you sold where you guys, you were doing really. And right then you figured it out a second one. So you just have, like listening to you is so delicious for me because you know so much and it, it just rolls right out of you. And yet it's so important to share in the world. So that's just my shameless plug. I think a podcast is always the easiest way to do that because lots of women listen to podcasts because they're.

Busy and so they just driving around. Podcasts are big. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Yeah, I listen to a lot of podcasts and books and stuff.

So, yeah, I'm a big too.

So. So one other thing that I'm doing is I'm writing a book. It's called Women Nerds.

Love it.

I know. So this is kind of interesting because I'm on. I'm a STEM person. I'm a nerd myself. And so basically, I got engaged with Kathy Kolakoff, who's a book writer as well, and she was like, oh, this is. Like, this would be great. So this is for those women scientists and engineers and mathematicians and techie girly nerds that are out there and they're alone. It's really about getting higher leadership for them. So there's only 3% of them at the CEO level. And so, you know, how do we get more of them into the C suite? How do we do that? And so my experience is other people's experiences, the literature, you know, it's like, it's a research book, but more importantly, it's just getting. Identifying that, okay, we did. Our mothers did a great job burning their bras and getting us educated in the 70s and 80s and 90s. And we're pumping out a lot of people in science, but they're not going up, you know, and we've seen them throughout history. But, you know, like the. The. What's the name of the program that. For the space. The Hidden Figures. Hidden Figures. Oh, yeah. You know, all of those women, they were called computers, right? And, you know, not only did they. Were they women, but they were women of color, which is even worse in terms of getting any type of elevation right. In their career. But, you know, what if we had. What if. What if we had gender equality? Where could we have gone? Could we be in another solar system? What could we accomplish if we just had gender equality? And it's like we're missing half of it. And that's the problem with AI, because all the AI is driven by men. Because, by the way, I have to.

Tell you, I had this whole I use ChatGPT quite a bit, and it. I don't recall what I was asking it for, but the. The response was ridiculous. And I told it. I said, you need to. Your bias is so evident in your response. And it just felt good just to say it to the stupid AI thing, but it responded and said, oh, thank you for pointing that out.

Well, it doesn't know.

But I was so irritated. Just, well, no, it's.

It's not chat GPTs. It's what is available to chat GPT.

Yes, of course.

Driven Lots to do.

There's lots to do, Andy.

Lots to do. That's right. Lots to do. So. And women need to. Women are equal to men. Okay.

Yeah, I agree. We're not better. We're equal.

Okay.

And it's, it's a. Well, that's a whole other conversation, but there's certainly quite a few women that I have worked with in my life who are so successful on their own and shockingly deferential of their competence and intelligence to their. Their partners and their spouses. And I, I never quite know how in those moments to respond. So.

But it start. It's. It's like it isn't a male female problem. And in many cases it's. It's Women's. Women are still perpetuating their own.

Women are equally. You know, we treat other women in many cases like we're back in high school. You know, it's like, come on. You know, it's like, we may not like each other, we may not like a guy or a woman, but I will always divert to supporting the woman because she's my gender. I have to, because if I don't, then I'm. I'm basically not supporting myself. So if we just took on that level and then we got our male counterparts to understand that we bring value and that we can share equally in that, then we will have a wonderful future ahead, not just for ourselves, but for our daughters and granddaughters and whatnot. And the world would be a totally different place. And this is what we've got to accomplish. And that was the premise of women nerds.

So I love it. I love and. And horizon like there. That element of who you are is in that business as well. Right? There's just.

Yes. Her H E R I Z O N her Eisen.

I know. I remember I. Someone said to me a while ago, you know, a. Well, a well resourced woman will change the world. And I just think you're a wonderful example of that. Right? You worked hard, you got. You did all of the things. You got educated, you invested in yourself. You learned the leadership tools that you needed and you built two businesses and have been very successful in doing it. And now you are this woman who has the resources to come back into her communities and, and make an impact in a different way. And I just. The more and more and more and more of us that do that in our own way, all of us will have our own approach. I just think that's the answer. And it's great that you sold your business.

Because now you're free also to do all this other work. Right. So it's not even just that. That was financially, I'm sure, amazing and a wonderful thing that you put on the planet, but you also built this space for yourself to do work that is of like, really, like, world changing. Also, like human changing, which I think is so fabulous.

So I totally agree with you. And there is so much work to be done, so. And there's so few of us, and we need to make more of us so we can get more work done, so we can make more changes. Because the end goal is equalization. And that's a feminist. I had to redefine that for a lot of people. They're like, I'm not a feminist. I'm like, if you're a woman and you want equality, you are a feminist. Okay.

Not a bad word, right? Yeah, Yeah, I agree 100%. I. I guess I would ask you, as we kind of wrap up, if there's one final sort of tip or bit of wisdom or insight you would share for other women who are listening who do have the aspiration to sell their business. Like, what's the nugget you'd leave behind today for them?

Well, I would say the Nike phrase, do it. Okay.

Because there are many other things that you'll engage in that will be likely better. So if it's ready to sell, you should sell it, move on and do the next great thing.

So it's so good.

I love it.

Well, you've been wonderful to have today on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah. And okay, I'll talk to you again.

Okay. Take care and enjoy. Lexlang.

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