Andrea Owen: How to Heal Trauma That Still Controls Your Life

I had a couple beliefs about love, that if you found a great love of your life, it was sort of their job to heal you. I was looking for someone to save me. I was looking for someone to love me so much that it would help me heal all of these things that I deem are painful. And it's not. No one fills out a job application for that.

Andrea, welcome back to the Earn Your Happy podcast.

Official friend of the podcast, I hope now.

Oh my God. I mean, it's a, it's an, it's a revolving door for you. I'm like, when, what do you have? What's going on? Come on. Because they're always, it's selfishly, it's just always a fun conversation for me no matter what we talk about. Yeah. And I do believe, and you have a podcast, like those are the best podcasts is when you just feel like you can go anywhere and talk to the person comfortably.

So yeah, and we know each other's audiences enough, so we know that the people that are listening to this are going to get value based on what we catch up on. So that's, that's my come from.

Well, I'm excited to have you on over the excuse that you have a revised version of your book, but I also know we're just gonna go all over the place today with where you've been on your journey. So you have a revised version of your book, 52 Ways to Live a Kick-Ass Life.

Yeah.

Which, I mean, when this book first came out, it was freaking amazing. But I'm always curious about when people revise books because I have a book. I'm like, could I revise that? And I guess even just asking that question, I can fully understand why I would want to revise that book because so much has changed. But from your perspective, tell me about when you first got the idea and why you revised it.

So I've been thinking about revising it for years, and I, so I wrote it around 2012. It was published January 2014. And I mean, you know, having been in the personal growth industry for such a long time, not only do we evolve as experts, but the industry evolved. And back in 2011, 2012, I mean, we were seeped in toxic positivity, you know, hustle culture. It was, it was very sort of like black or white. And we loved the miniaturization of personal growth. That's what I call it. Like where you would see a meme on Pinterest of like, don't compare yourself to anyone and you're and you're like, yeah, don't do that. But meanwhile you're like, wait, how?

And that's all I'm secretly doing? What does that look like?

Right?

Am I the only one?

So I wanted to revise it to update people on topics like that. And even, even things like around procrastination, I'll just give an example. Sometimes that's because you have, you're neurodiverse and that's the way that your brain works. So it's not just like, do this and you'll fix it, do that and you'll be better. So I wanted to, to not be dismissive certain aspects of someone's unique personal growth, as well as I wanted to add questions in each chapter for people to coach themselves and things like that. So it was, it was an, it's an all-over facelift for the book.

I love that. I, so I wanna start with kind of just thinking about, you know, I, I'm trying to think of even the first time you and I connected, how many years ago was that? It had to be at least 6, if not more. 8, 7, 8. I'm not sure.

But we were 25-ish. Yeah.

Okay. What would you say in the last, like, we'll just go 8 for our sake, 8 years since we first talked, for you, what have been some lessons for you on the personal development journey where you have had to learn to tweak certain overarching lessons for yourself? Like, what were some themes for you that you always struggled with that you're like, man, this just doesn't necessarily feel like a fit for me, or I feel like I don't, really ever understand this one?

The thing that comes to mind the most, the quickest when you ask that question is— and I've always been transparent about this more or less on my show and with my community around the aspect of trauma. And I think that previously, I mean, I knew trauma existed. I knew that it was a thing to people to work through. And I honestly felt like, okay, you do a certain amount of exercises, you work with maybe one particular therapist that resonates with you the most, and you can get through it. Meanwhile, I was dealing with this like almost 20-year-old thing that was happening. And it was from my first marriage, where I had been with this person for 13 years from when I was 17, which is wow, pretty young, until I was 30. And I had no desire to be with this person anymore. Like, glad we're not together. It was great. Thank you for the life lessons. But in my mind, here I was, you know, writing self-help books. I'm an expert in my field. I was remarried and had two beautiful children. I had a beautiful life and could not land the plane with this previous relationship. And I kept just circling and circling. And I went to therapist after therapist. And finally, in, in 2020, I kept using the word exorcism. And I told my therapist, and I'm like, I feel like I need a spoon, and I need you to like scoop out the part of my brain that won't allow me to just land the plane. And by not being able to land the plane, I mean, um, I kept having dreams and they were symbolic, and this person was in the dreams. I'm like, what does this mean? Or he— I would— he would just like pop into my head, or I would feel still angry about certain aspects of it, and I was still beating myself up over certain aspects of it. None of it made sense, Lori. And so Understanding how deeply trauma can live in your subconscious and that it sometimes takes— I don't know if I wanna use like more aggressive modalities in order to land that plane, whatever that looks like for you. That was one thing that I have really had to come to accept and surrender to over the last probably decade. Mm.

Well, that kind of brings me into the next question that we were chatting about before hitting record, and that is You know, what made you realize that people are different in that way? Like some people are gonna need a lot more aggressive work, probably from your own experience.

Yeah.

But also what has, like, now that you have such an awareness around it after all of these years, what has this last year or two looked like for you? What has your journey like? Where has that all taken you?

Yeah. Okay. So in, so it's been about 2 years now as we're recording this, I decided, well, it was a mutual decision. My soon-to-be ex-husband and I— so it's my second marriage— decided to end our 14-year marriage. So it was incredibly difficult. I'm not going to say that that was an easy decision to make.

Did you feel like you were in a good— like, what did you feel like? For the most part, you were in a good marriage?

Yeah, it was, it was good. And, um, and I, I often say, like, I had a beautiful life, you know, I had an easy life. He was so easy to get along with. However, it was a classic case of we grew apart. And it makes me incredibly sad. And I kind of never understood what people meant by that when they said it. And now I understand that it just happens sometimes. I don't consider it a failed marriage at all. It just was one of those things where we were not a great match for each other anymore. It doesn't make either one of us bad or wrong. It just is what it is. And that happens when you're dealing with two humans over time.

Clarification around that, just for anyone listening, because I'm actually, I, I'm going through this with quite a few friends and I don't know if it's the age, like if it's your late thirties and early forties that all of a sudden you're kind of like, whoa, um, you know, I wanna go this direction or that direction. What were some things that you did in the finality or that you both did together or the questions that you asked yourself around how do I know I've given my all and that this really is the end and we can let this go?

I think that is such a beautiful and valuable question to ask both me and for people to ask themselves. For me, I needed to know and feel it in all of my being that I had gone to the ends of the earth to save the marriage before we made any decisions. And, you know, obviously he's— I can't speak for him, um, and I won't, But for me, that looked like a commitment to couples counseling, which in his defense, you know, we both showed up for that every other week for 10 months. Wow. And it— and we also were specific in the person that we found, this particular therapist that we found. We both wanted to agree, we both wanted to have good rapport and trust this person. And ultimately, we found a great person and this couples counselor asked questions of us that we had never asked each other or asked ourselves in our marriage. And so it was incredibly insightful to know that where the decision that we made was the right one. And so thank you for asking that question. And I think that when you know, you know, like, I hate to sound esoteric like that, but it's, it's a matter of following your intuition. And to touch on what you said in the beginning of your question, we are seeing a lot of, especially women, leaving their relationships and/or their marriages. And I think you're right. I think it has to do with our age. Middle age kind of grabs you by the shoulders and shakes you and says, you're round in the corner. Yeah, what do you want to do with this?

It's not part of your life here.

Nobody's getting out of this alive. Yeah. Nope. And no one knows how much time you have left. What are you going to do with your one precious life? I think that has a lot to do with it. I think also I'm just staring down the barrel of 50 in, in a few months here. I do think that, and I don't know the science behind this, but I've heard people talk about our hormone, the shifting of hormones. Yeah. Makes us get to a place where we have a lower tolerance for nurturing other people, which means we are not tolerating the things that we previously might, might have been easier to tolerate. The last thing, I think that the pandemic really forced us to look at our lives and like, okay, is this ultimately what I want for the quote unquote rest of my life? And I think it's also asked a lot of people who are in good enough marriages Like, is it really good enough? Because we don't, we don't talk a lot about leaving the good enough marriage. We talk a lot about leaving the abusive one, the person who was a narcissist, etc., etc., etc., where it's obvious, like, girl, you should go, right? But, you know, to quote TikTok, you know, he's a good man, Savannah. Like, I had one. Yeah. And I still, it still wasn't, wasn't right for me. It wasn't right for me in this lifetime that I'm in. So kind of a long way of answering your question.

No, I, I love hearing that thought process because I think it's going to help a lot of people go, okay, that feels good to me, I'll feel complete with that. Because sometimes we don't even know where to start or where that would feel complete. And so it's, it's just, it's kind of like in your book you have a lot of questions where the— and also the therapist you had mentioned asks you questions. Sometimes, sometimes we, we can't get to the place where we even know what questions to ask. So For you, you know, this last year, I know that you had told me you'd been on some different, um, like you're, you're trying some different things, you're trying some different modalities of healing. Um, what are some of those things you're doing?

So I decided, because as I mentioned in 2020, I had told a therapist that I had hired that I feel like I need an exorcism, like, can you help me on this plane? And so she started me out for the first time with somatic therapy, and she did a few different things, you know, muscle testing, I forget what they were called, which isn't my norm. I'm more of a, I wanna stay up in my head. It's like safer up there, you know? Like I'm, I wanna stay in my head. It's, it's so I don't have to actually feel a whole lot of things. But as I know, that's not how the whole process works. We are emotional beings having a thinking experience, having a human experience. So I started to look into psychadelic therapy. I was hesitant because I am someone in long-term recovery. I think we may have talked about it on your show previously. I got sober from alcohol in 2011. So this year— last year, I celebrated 13 years of consecutive sobriety in that regard. And but I looked into the research. There's been a resurgence of research, which is amazing. They've done a lot of research on veterans. And this is with things like psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms, MDMA, also known as Molly and ecstasy for all you partiers, um, even LSD, several different psychedelics. And I decided to go with ketamine. And anyone listening to this who lives in even a moderately large city, there are ketamine clinics, I think, in 44 US states. Wow. Maybe 45, almost all states. And I did it through an at-home company and talked to a lot of people beforehand. I, I, they, the company was excellent around it and I did 12 sessions at home and it fundamentally changed the trajectory of my personal growth. It felt like a fast track and I finally felt like I could land that plane that I talked about. So I can, I can talk more about like what I saw and what it's like.

And yeah, I think I'm curious for a couple questions that might be in people's heads are like, okay, that, that might freak me out a little bit. Yeah. Was it like addictive? Do you have to continue to stay on it? Do you ever find that you have urges? Then we're going to clear those questions out so we can be clear for all the next stuff.

Good questions. I forget about those because I don't even worry about it anymore. So that was one of my main concerns. Like, as someone— like, I identify as an addict. Like, do not put Percocet, Valium in front of me because you will not see me anymore. So I had to be very, very cognizant and do my due diligence. The research shows that it is not addictive. And even after 12 sessions, I was even spacing them so far apart because I wasn't— and I'm like, I don't— I wasn't even thinking about it in terms of, oh, I can't wait to get high. Like, that was not it at all. And I want to really speak to how understandable it is, especially if you were a child of the '80s and '90s, where, you know, in my generation, it was Nancy Reagan, you know, Just Say No. I know for kids, people that were kids in the '90s, it was the D.A.R.E. program. Like, drugs were bad and scary, especially psychedelics. I was a super partier, and I had never even done LSD before, because that was like, whoa, that is super scary. So I wanted to make sure it wasn't— the reason also I wanted to start with ketamine is because the experience, as we call it, also known as like when you trip, it's only about 20 minutes, 30 minutes maybe, whereas LSD or psilocybin can be several hours.

Oh, no, thank you.

Better to me. It felt better to me. It felt like a little like a tiptoe in there. So yeah. So is that— was that all the questions that you had about that?

Yeah, I think for anybody who's like— because I have heard so many incredible things about it for trauma, or I believe, I believe I've even heard for like anxiety and depression. But I do think, you know, the people that I'm talking to, some of them have a lot of fears around it, like, oh, I'm not sure if it's, you know, addictive, if this is going to be something I have to continue my whole life, if this is going to be something I want. Okay, so it could be kind of potentially— no guarantees— but maybe a one-and-done for some people, like a rewiring of the brain. Do you know a little bit the science behind how it works?

Yes. So, and, and please excuse my rudimentary explanation of it, but it's just as you said. So it essentially, um, kind of wipes the slate clean of your neurotransmitters, and it allows you to rewire your brain. And, and again, that's— I'm speaking very generally here, but it is mostly marketed to people who really struggle with chronic anxiety and depression, which is amazing. And so I'll give you one example of something that it changed. So I diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder when I was 27. I was on medication that changed my life for the better. And then I got pregnant a few years later, so went off of it and never have gone back on. Actually, I take that back. I was put on an antidepressant a few years ago and remembered that it was a similar feeling to my anti-anxiety meds where it just sort of muted me. Like, I— yes, there were several moments where something would happen and I, and I would think to myself, like, I feel like I should be crying right now. And I wasn't. I was just—

that's exactly what happened to me. I— yes, I didn't like that.

As someone who's an emotional person who finally has gotten to the place where I don't apologize for it and I'm like, get me on the ride, I'm here for it. Yeah, I didn't— I didn't like that side effect, but I know it's great for some people. So I knew that I did not want to try something where I was going to feel like I needed to be on it all the time. That was not the case at all with ketamine. I did 12 rounds, which they— this particular company sells them in 6 sessions. So I did 2 of those. And the first time I did it, I did them a week apart. You do it at home. They come in like— they almost look like Tums and you put them in your mouth and you hold it in there and they dissolve. And then you hold that— it's kind of gross. You hold the saliva in your mouth for like 7 minutes and then you spit it out. Do not swallow it. It'll make you throw up. And then you just lay back with your headphones on and your sleep mask. And I mean, they guide you through the whole thing. And then about an hour and a half later, you're fine. You're not supposed to drive or operate tractors and stuff, but you're okay.

I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it then because I am full tractor mode right now.

Full tractor duty. Monday through Friday. It's kind of funny.

I mean, when I was back in Wisconsin, that is a very normal thing, a normal career. So who knows? I could. But okay, so tell me a little bit about what the meditations were like?

So they're not really meditations. It's more like, well, I guess there are some people who say that I've never been great at meditating. But there are some people who say that when they do ketamine, it feels like they've been dropped into a deep meditation without even trying.

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The way I describe it, it is— it's kind of like dreaming. So you know when you have weird dreams and they're— they're— when you wake up and you're like, okay, that was weird, but if you really take a good look at it, it's metaphors and symbolic. Like you might see, I don't know, like Abraham Lincoln is like sitting at your dining room table like crocheting like booties for your dog, you know, and you're like That's weird.

Yeah. But it also makes sense.

Right? It makes so much sense. Like, or, you know, the dreams that you have, like, I have a recurring dream that I am back in high school, and I'm trying out for cheerleading again. But I'm 49.

Oh, fine.

And I don't know the choreography. And every— and the girls are nice to me, but they're looking at me like, who brought their mom? But the symbolic, it's like, I'm, I'm feeling vulnerable. Like, I have, you know, I'm, I really want to make friends, but I'm having a hard time, you know, it's It's symbolic. Ketamine is similar. So you like— there was one session where I was falling backwards into like a black hole. And but I wasn't scared. And I kept like, going by and I would see someone that's in my life. And some of them were like smiling and waving, and some of them were not. And the people that were not were people who had hurt me. And so again, and I had another one where I was like riding a bike down a dirt path. And there was all these places, and suddenly my dad was there who passed away. And so it was similar to dreaming, but there was a couple of them that— and I can share with you, like, there was one that, like, profoundly I was rocked. Yeah, I think that's—

I think that's what I would love to hear is kind of like, so you're getting all of this, but how do you know how to unpack it sometimes? Because, you know, I haven't done ketamine, but I've definitely been on some retreats where you're doing like a 3-hour meditation, and sometimes I think for the most part we naturally can find the meaning of it, but are you guided to like, you know, how to unpack it? Or so tell me about some of those.

Well, they— when you sign up with this particular company, they have a coach that is assigned to you. It's part of the package where you can bring them. And they also have a community, like a forum that's so helpful where there's other people who can help you do it. Honestly, you know what I did? I typed mine into ChatGPT. Oh, and I explained, I'm like, here's what I'm kind of struggling with. What do you think? What are some suggestions? And it gave me like a few different sort of, um, like, well, it could be this, it could be that, like, what do you think? So it was kind of like a dream analysis.

Interesting.

Yeah, it was super helpful. But there was one particular episode, uh, journey, I'll say, where— because when I walked into it, I really wanted help with the specific trauma that I had.

And that was the one around your husband, like trying to get over—

Yes, this one long relationship that I had when I was younger. And I felt— I'm like, why do I still feel traumatized over this? Like, yeah, there's been enough time. I have enough tools. I'm smart. I'm— I don't want to be with this person anymore. What's going on? I want answers. So for some context, when I met this person, I was 17 years old. After just dating a few months, I was a senior in high school and I got pregnant and accidentally, and I didn't have a whole lot of support during that time. I was— I told my best friend and my cheerleading coach, like, the only two people that I told. And I ended up terminating the pregnancy. And it was the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. And I was a child, you know, like, not in a place where I could make sound decision. I needed, I needed adults, I needed adults, and I didn't have them at the time to be able to— that I trusted enough to be able to help me make this decision. And so that happened with him. And then when I was 30, when we split up, we were married at that point, we were talking about conceiving our first child, and he got our neighbor pregnant and had an affair with her and got her pregnant. And they were gonna have a baby. And that's why we divorced. It didn't occur to me until all these years later, I was like, oh, So that whole relationship was bookended by two very traumatic events. So maybe, maybe that's one of the reasons this trauma has stuck with me and the way that the clinician explained it to me in terms of trauma. And she said that what happens many times during trauma, traumatic events, is that our subconscious cannot organize the information and it's trying to like make sense of it and can't. Mm-hmm. So what ends up getting wired is that it still thinks that that it's like in present tense because you kind of can't figure it out. Yeah. And so, and I'm like, tell me how to help, tell me how to, you know, I'm not smart, tell me how to get into my subconscious. And this psychedelic therapy was the answer. So I'm in this session and I have a sudden deep, like, smack in the face realization that it's not my present self that is upset or that even really has any feelings about what happened. It's this 17-year-old version of myself myself and my 30-year-old version of myself that are stuck. And it had— and this very much points back to internal family systems. I don't know if you've had people on your show that have talked about that. And these, these old younger versions of myself that were stuck. And so the visual that I got, and this is the part that might make me cry when I tell the story, is that I saw my 30-year-old self. That was the age I was at where we split up. And she was carrying almost like a baby, my 17-year-old self. And I was over— like, I get goosebumps even telling this story. I was overwhelmed with emotion. I was in the fetal position crying so— I don't remember the last time I cried that hard, crying so hard I could barely breathe. And they were both so tired. They were both so exhausted. My 17-year-old self was enraged. That's why she was exhausted. And my 30-year-old self was exhausted from all of it, from having to carry my 17-year-old self. And so I'm crying and crying and crying. And in— during the session, I kept hearing, it's safe to lay it all down. It's safe to let all of this go. You're never going to get another outcome. You're never going to get a different outcome than the one that you wanted. And that's what was keeping me stuck, is that this 17-year-old version of me and the 30-year-old version of me kept wanting a different outcome. And that's why I kept using the expression, "I feel like I can't land the plane." Mm. And I don't know where that metaphor came from because that's what it felt like. And I'm like, why does it keep looping? And so what I figured out was, oh, my subconscious kept looking for another outcome. And that's why I kept thinking, oh, well, you know, like, maybe I should have another conversation with him. Like, maybe I should go back in time and try to fix it. And so it was it was so incredibly moving and devastating and emotional and also healing and beautiful and, um, and validating for all of it. And so just that experience, and, and I want to also say, I think that was like my 8th or 9th session. Um, I, I just wonder, and I'm like, maybe I just wasn't ready to see it like in the beginning, and then I was. It has been profoundly. Like, I feel like a different person after experiencing that.

So what were your first 8 like? Where did you have an expectation, or do they kind of set you up to be like, hey, this may or may not work? Like, what does that all look like?

They ask you to not have any real expectations because it's different for everyone, and it's not a magic pill. I look at all of the personal development things that I have done, from every retreat, from every online class, from every book, every therapist, they are stepping stones for me to get to a place where I can feel whole. Because at the end, right, that's all what we're looking for. We're looking totally, you know, a lot of times we look for it in another person, or our rescue dog, or this book, or business. All inside you. Yeah, inside you all along. So the first one, with the way that I did it, they dose you pretty low. I think it's for liability purposes. So the first one I was kind of like, oh, that was kind of boring. Like, yeah, exactly. Great. What else can I get? So then you meet with a clinician and then they, based on your experience, they up your dosage. And that's what happened with me. And the first few I saw kind of vague lessons. Like, I'm not a super visual person, so I kept hearing things. I know that you and I have talked about, you know, we write poetry and things like that. Like when I write poetry, I hear the words and then they come out of my fingers. So it was similar to that. I would hear things, um, and know things rather than see things. I did see some things, but a lot more hearing and knowing. And it was really when I decided to completely surrender, and I'm like, okay, my intention is whatever the medicine needs to show me. I am open to it. And I followed their instructions because they instruct you to, like, journal afterwards. And there are some sessions where I wrote pages and pages and pages and don't even recognize my handwriting. And there were other sessions where all I said was, I don't know what to say. I mean, there wasn't a whole lot, but the— it's really like kind of like therapy, how therapists always say it's not really about what we talk about in our sessions, it's what happens in between in your real life. Psychedelic therapy is the same. It's about the integration more so than the, the acute experience itself.

You must feel really free. So tell me about how you've— now, now that you've had this experience and you're like, whoa, I kind of feel like that's gone, what have you noticed in your day-to-day life that just— you're able to like— where were you getting stuck that you didn't even realize it? Like, how was it affecting you in ways you didn't realize? Now that that's kind of lifted?

A couple of things. So like, my two biggest takeaways from all 12 of my sessions are two things. One, and I kind of already knew this before, but it became glaringly obvious, is that my thorn in my side, my Achilles heel in this lifetime, is the lesson of detachment. Mm. And girl, when I tell you I like to hold on. For dear life. Give me something to grab on to. I don't care what it is. I don't care if it's slippery. I don't care if it's bad for me. I'm gonna hold on if I need to hold on. I think it's the answer. So much so where I felt like called to get the word surrender tattooed on my arm in 2016. And here I am still working on letting go. I knew that that was my biggest life lesson, and it's going to continue to be a life lesson. And I think it's probably been my life lesson as I have been here in other bodies previously in other lives. And then the second thing is that— and this is very— I think anyone who's done psychedelic therapy will tell you, like, yeah, I learned the same thing. And I, I think it's interesting that we all see the same thing, because to me that makes it sound like, okay, the universe is as a clear message.

Yeah, that is interesting.

Everything comes back to love. Everything comes back to love. And the way that we, you know, like the lens that we look at things through, you know, and I've read A Return to Love and I'm like, okay, like, I get it. But like, I might be the exception.

You don't really have to, right?

If you only knew what a dick that person was to me.

Yeah, exactly. They're the one. They're the one that a return to hate is going to be based on.

A return to anger. Return to I'm mad at them. Yeah. No, but it really is the answer. And of course, it's nuanced. And of course, we need to have boundaries. And of course, sometimes we need to love people from afar. But it really comes back to that and that we have to be able to find that within ourselves. Before we can think that we can be in a healthy partnership. And, and I realized that, you know, the reason I've become a collector of ex-husbands is, is like, it's not all their fault. Like, a lot of it's me. It's, you know, I was looking for that from someone else. I was looking for someone to save me. I was looking for someone to love me so much that it would help me heal all of these, you know, things that I deem are painful and the answers that I'm looking for. And, and it, it again, like, it's going to sound so cliché, but like, it's the way I describe it is it feels like when you were a little kid and you truly believed in Santa Claus. Mm-hmm. There was no other explanation except that Santa was real. I feel like I've gone back to that, but in terms of truly being able to feel in my bones that love is the answer, period. That's it.

Okay, so question on all of that, because you've been divorced twice, and when you're looking at relationships now, first of all, let's just— I don't know if you're interested in another relationship or ever getting married again. Where do you stand on that?

100%. Yeah. And I could talk about that.

Okay, cool. We'll talk about that in one second. So that— this will lead into that.

Okay.

So do we think that like the first and second— because I think people, and even me, you know, watching different marriages fall apart, you can start going like, whoa, whoa, let me make sure mine's okay. What's going on? Like, are we okay? Um, I can't tell you the amount of times Chris and I've been like, hey, are Are we good? Like, what's going on here? So we'll analyze that. Okay, so let me see if I can get this question to what my brain is doing right now. I am thinking, do you feel like when you have like that unhealed version where you're like, I can't land the plane, do you think that you attracted the second husband who showed you lessons even though it was great and it wasn't ever going to last unless you healed that? And does it make you afraid to be in this third person who maybe, you know, are you like, am I fully healed? Am I going to— is this another lesson? Like, where is all of that falling?

Yeah, okay. So such a great question. I think first and foremost, please, everyone listening to this, know that I am the type of person who believes in impossible things. Like, I believe in magic. I always have since I was a child. And I think that, like, in my circle of friends, if somebody was like, hey, who do you think the one who's going to be married multiple times but keep believing in in love, they'd be like, Andrea, she's gonna be her, just based on my personality.

Okay.

I, and I used to say like, am I a glutton for punishment? Like, I don't think so. I think I just am such a believer and maybe a bit of a romantic that I love love so much. And so, and I've said this to people, you know, even on first dates, you know, when they find out that I've been married multiple times, and I'm like, I I 100% believe in love, and I believe that there is a great love for me. And I think, you know, and I think my two ex-husbands were— I don't think that we have— most of us have just like one great love of our life. I think we have multiple, and sometimes that's— it's friendships. And so I've always been— I mean, except when I was first really going through it, I thought like, no, I'll never get married again. I can tell you what I won't do. I will never get married again and not have a prenuptial agreement.

There we go.

Okay. Everybody listening, girls, women, even if you're already married, have a postnup because you don't know what's going to happen in terms of your finances when you are married. And if you don't have one, the federal government will have one for you or whatever state you're in. So have one where you get to make the— you get to call the shots. Anyway, so getting back to love, um, I think that how I am radically different now as I'm about to be 50 and And I decided, A, this is different than, than even when I got married the second time. There is no person in a romantic relationship with a man or friendship with a woman that is going to heal me. I deep down thought that I had a couple beliefs about love, that if you found a great love of your life, it was sort of their job job to heal you, or at least to help heal you. And it's not— no one fills out a job application for that.

Who—

I don't want that.

Yeah, exactly.

And I also had a belief that in order for love to really be real, that I had to chase it, that there had to be some element of difficulty to it. Interesting. And that's not, that's not true. And I just, I also So I am in an— as we're recording this, I am in a new relationship. It's been about 5 months, and it's been really interesting because both of us walking in are so transparent. I think it comes with age. Like, we're so transparent. Like, from the beginning, we were like, hey, what do you think makes up a good relationship based on the collection of exes that you have? Where are you terrible and that you have to— and that you've had to heal? So there's been, like, total transparency about that. And, and here's something, how I describe it is I say, I think with the experience and age and wisdom that I have now, I have one foot in the reality that this is a new relationship, that we— this could fall apart tomorrow. It could fall apart tomorrow. And if it does, I'm going to be so grateful for the time spent together. And the— and, and just the experience of falling in love. Are you kidding me? It is better than any any drink or drug I have ever taken in my life. 5 stars. Would definitely do that again. Are you kidding? Um, so like, one foot in reality— this could not work out, I'm very aware of that— and then the other foot leaning into the magic of falling in love with another human being and, and, and the vulnerability that, that— it's such a gift. And so I think that I'm good with like this, like that sort of lens, just knowing that you are not like I am a whole person without you. You know, like, you're great, but I'm also a goddamn prize. And that is very different even from my last marriage that I entered when I was 31, 32, 33, somewhere around there. I'm a very different person, and I'm grateful for the gift of wisdom and age that just comes with Mm.

Oh, I love hearing that. And you know, it's funny because we all have a version of what you're talking about in a different way. And mine is like with friendships and business, like, am I okay without these things? Am I like, am I chasing these people and things? Like, where for me, love has been more like with Chris, it's been a little more like effortless. And we've, we've been actually blessed to be crazy transparent from the beginning, like way more than people are like, you talked about that on your dates? Like when you were young. And so I think that we had gone— we each actually had like real-life psychopathic relationships right before each other, like where his was actually physically abusive and he got pushed through a plate glass, glass table. Like, so I think that we literally both came into that like, um, we're— what are all the things that we're not gonna do? And where are we— like, where are our flaws? So strangely enough, that's been like a You know, that, that part of my life feels very grounded. Now, female friendships, very much like what exactly what you're saying. Like, do I want to, do I want to put this on the line? I don't know if this, you know, like feels good for me. Like just the fear around it where I think some people have the fear where you don't have that, that fear in romantic relationships because you're telling us like fall in love with that journey. Like I should be looking at it like, okay, this girl, if something happens, great, maybe she won't be in my life or whatever, but it's worth the investment because the fun of getting to know each other should be what I'm focusing on instead of like, what if she hurts me? I've started so many different businesses, and I have to tell you that every single time I've started one, I have been terrified. It didn't get easier because each business was so different. You're always wondering, is anyone going to buy this? Are these events going to fill? Is anybody even going I'm gonna like this product. And now I know that it was absolutely the right thing to believe in myself and launch my businesses, launch my podcast, despite all of the fears and hesitations that I had. It also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side, like I did. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names like Glossier to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store and matches your brand style. Accelerate your efficiency, whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. It's time to turn those what-ifs into— with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com/happy. Go to shopify.com/happy. That's shopify.com/happy.

Exactly. And, and that, that goes back down to choosing to come from a place of love versus fear. And it's, it's not linear. It's— I'm not perfect at it, but, you know, I have had, I have had a, a two situations, and one of them we ended up reconciling, where it's a best best, best girlfriend that ended up— we ended up splitting up for, for whatever reason. And I don't think that the grief of that gets talked about enough and gets— it gets the, the airtime that it needs. Because those friendships, when you have a friend breakup, when you have a best friend breakup, it can take you to your knees. And it again is like what you were talking about when we first started talking about this. Like, they didn't die, you know? Like, you, you have to have this ongoing grief for them and knowing that they're— and you might still see them on social media, you might still see them out in your circle of friends. And it's just so devastating. If you can come at it from a place of gratitude, your hurt matters. Yes, feel your feelings of whatever it is that come up for you. And if you can look at it through the lens of how lucky was I to get to spend time with this beautiful human? How lucky was I that I got to have the belly laughs with her and learn the lessons that I did? Like, what are your takeaways? What are your key takeaways? What are you incredibly grateful for? How lucky is it, you know, the privilege— we are here for such a short time, y'all. Like, the privilege that you got to spend the amount of time that you did with this person. Like, how lucky am I? And so I think any time we can look at something from a place of love and gratitude, you are giving yourself an enormous gift. Mm-hmm.

I totally— I mean, that's just a beautiful way to look at it. That I feel like I've dealt with a lot of that, but that even helps me even more, like, lean in because that is where the good stuff is. Like when people are like, oh, it seems like you just, you've got it figured out or you have such a great life. It's like, yes, because I'm choosing to lean into the really good things despite constantly every day there's things because that can throw us off. There's really hard things every day. You're affected by a lot of things every day, but it is what you're choosing to look at. So my curiosity right now is for like people who are thinking maybe what I'm thinking, where I'm like, okay, I've got some stuff that, you know, when you're talking about landing the plane, I'm like, I think I've got some stuff too that's not like ever landed. And I think I've just come to the place where I'm like, maybe that's never gonna land. But now you're making me think maybe it could land. Like, yeah, I have come to the idea that I will always be a bit anxious around like certain— either public speaking, or I get anxiety around certain things still, even though I have the tools and I use them and the tools are sharp, like they're good. But I would actually love to not have those feelings anymore. Like, I would love that. I'd feel very free. I could do— I feel like I could impact a lot more people a lot more freely and not, you know, if I'm gonna go speak at a— on a big stage not take 30 days of stress to do it. Like, I could really do without that stuff. So what are your thoughts around that?

I love this question, and I love the example that you gave. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of answer it with an example, or like an anxious thing that, that I have. So first, I want to preface it by saying, by landing the plane, like, if you have something that's, that you feel like, yeah, that still kind of circles, my question, my first question is, how is it impacting your life now? If you're considering any kind of psychedelic therapy for that thing, that's the question you should ask yourself. Like, how do you want this to impact your life differently? For example, when I first heard about ketamine therapy, it was a vendor from on one of my retreats, and, and, and they were telling me that they had some childhood sexual abuse from a family member, and they did the ketamine therapy, and they said, and I said, does it like erase your memories? I was like, that's legitimately what I thought they were gonna say. They're like, no, they said, I, I can still go now. I can go to family functions and see this person, and I still remember what happened. It just doesn't have the impact that it used to. So the, the full physiological response that we have sometimes when we get triggered didn't happen for them anymore. So I'll give you an example. I, when my anxiety was at its absolute worst, I, and I was having panic attacks attacks, I would have them. And this is when I had to go on disability and could not drive anymore because I was having them in the car.

Wow.

Especially when it rained. And I was living in San Diego. I'm from San Diego. And so it didn't rain all that often, which is good. I mean, not good for, for drought, but, um, for driving when you're anxious, it was good. But I had one really bad panic attack going south on Interstate 5. I'll never forget it, in Carlsbad. And I knew then that that it's not a good idea for me to drive in the rain. So even all these years later, where I don't have panic attacks anymore, it would rain. And now I'm in North Carolina, where we get mother effing rain. Like, now I know— I never knew what people meant when they said like sheets of rain. I'm like, yeah, you see it go by, you see sheets of rain. And it's scary to drive in it. And so I would white knuckle it. My kids knew not to talk to me when it was happening. The good news is, is it passes pretty fast, but like my armpits would sweat. I just, I, it was terrible where I would, it was, it would start to consume my life. I would be so anxious when it would start to rain. I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, please don't be a torrential downpour. And it just, it was impacting my life. So I did some ketamine therapy sessions and I was driving from Raleigh to Greensboro, which is about an hour and 45 minutes.

Minutes.

And lo and behold, I suddenly noticed that it had been raining pretty hard, and I was driving not in the fast lane but the one right next to it with the radio on. Radio wasn't blaring, but it was on, and I was just like, doo doo doo, driving a moderate pace, but I was not afraid. And I said out loud, oh my God, like, I was like looking around for people to like— I'm like, look at me, what I'm driving in the rain and I'm okay. I was freaking out, Lori. And that, even if I had just had that result from ketamine, worth every penny. So that's an example of how it can shift. And I'm sure if I asked one of the clinicians, they would tell me what had happened in my brain. But I do think that it rewires those overly anxious thought patterns that we have, like the thought pattern that told me if there is a brainstorm and you're driving, you need to go in full fight or flight.

Yep.

And it doesn't happen anymore.

Oh, that's so interesting because I do think that, that, like, I know exactly, I don't know exactly, but I can, you know, from the years of assessment, I pretty much know exactly why it flares up in public situations like that.

Yeah.

But that's not healing it. Like, I know, I know you can know you're safe. Like, you can literally be like, there's no one on the highway, I can see everything. Like, you can literally know you're safe. You can have done all the work, all the meditations. But what's so interesting about the, the brain, you know, and I think of like, uh, the soldiers who have fought and who just get these, these memories stuck in their head. It's, it's like you get stuck in a loop and subconscious. Yes. And sometimes I just think those loops are, are really hard to to fight on your own, whether, you know, some people might be like, ketamine's not for me, it is for me, whatever. But I think that it's going to take like somebody really understanding and helping you. Like, if you can't get out of it yourself, somebody's got to help you, someone's got to guide you, or something and someone. So, um, yeah, it makes me, it makes me kind of excited because there are some things that I've been going along in my life where I'm like, no, I think I'm really good. Like, I've got the tools and all the stuff, but I do think that it is underlying impacting a lot of things to the point where even this year I'm like, it's way too much work for me to go and speak. So I'm, I'm saying no to just about everything this year because it rocks me too much for where I need to focus this year. Where if it didn't, I really would love to be going out there and doing it. So it's interesting.

I think it, yeah, it just takes up way too much energy and like the recovery isn't worth it.

It's totally the bandwidth that it, it feels like it robs instead of where I know there's a world where I think it gives back, but I just don't know what that is.

So anyway, interesting. Yeah, I would be so curious if you, if you looked into it and if it was helpful for you. I'll give you one more quick example of, of how I'm not as triggered anymore. So when I was doing it, when I was doing the first 6 sessions, um, I noticed— so it was during the time where I was having a lot of correspondence with my attorney, my divorce attorney, journey. And every time I would see— and I liked her, like, I hired her, I trusted her. But every time I would see her name in my email inbox, I would feel, you know, like that surge of hot or cold blood that you feel. You're just like, it's the, it's the anxiousness. Like, for me, my armpits start to sweat immediately. And then I would avoid her email because I didn't want to open it. So I don't want to deal with what was inside. And after I started, after I did probably 4 or so ketamine I— and it took me a couple of days to notice that I would see her name in my inbox and it was no different than seeing anything else, even something from like The Gap. Wow. It was just like, oh, there she is again. I wonder what this email says. Astounding. Astounding. So just, it dropped my, my triggers to a more manageable place.

Yeah.

And again, worth every penny. Um, but I also wanna say everyone's experience is different.

Totally.

Absolutely. It's not a quick fix. And from what I understand, you can get to that place of healing your subconscious, the anxiety, through breathwork and meditation, which essentially does the same thing. It just looks a little bit different.

Yeah, that's really, really interesting. Okay, my wheels are just turning at this point, but I can tell.

I love it.

All right, so I don't know if you have this, but for 2025, what are you kind of focusing on? What's a theme you're starting to feel or you'd like to focus on in your life? And what are you excited about?

Yeah, for the first time ever, I did a word of the year. Do you do that?

I actually do, only if it like comes to me. I'm like, yeah, this year's a word of the year. And I do have one this year.

So I've always supported it and thought it was amazing. I just knew it wasn't for me because I'm like, I'm gonna forget, and like, never mind, you know, just— I— my ADHD is like, no for that one word. No. So this year, even, you know, like in around November and December, I knew that word was going to be devotion. And it started because of the conversations I was having with that person I mentioned that I was dating. And, you know, and he would ask me like, what, you know, how— we just were having deep conversations. And I said, I want to live the rest of my life from, you know, 49 now, from on, as in true devotion to myself. Because if I am in true devotion to myself, I am the best version of myself. And so I sort sort of bullet pointed out what that looks like. And that's what I'm really excited about. For the first time not being in a, like, a very super long-term relationship where so much of my, quote unquote, devotion was to someone else, I can now put it on myself and stop walking away from myself, stop abandoning myself, stop ignoring my intuition. Like, what does that look like if I dedicate my life to that? If I dedicate my life to 100% trusting myself? Because so many times when we jump, the net doesn't appear. But you know what can?

Us. Yeah.

Love. And so it's, it's about living out this next chapter of my life and really leaning into being truly devoted to myself which isn't selfish at all, but it, it, it will be of service to other people. So that's what I'm excited about.

Ooh, I love that for you. And I also love, I love that a word spoke to you. I think what's so cool about just picking a word, cuz I, I used to, I think I might have thought it was you. I, I wasn't even necessarily in full support of it. I was like, that's kind of lame.

Um, same.

It's like, that's not gonna help you. Um, but now, now it's And it is totally helping me. So now I don't knock anything anyone does, but what the one word does for me is it's exactly like what you said. It's just giving me the first filter that I don't forget to run every decision through that I have found for that year is the most important way for me to make decisions. So mine this year is organized, and that means that I don't, that is the opposite feeling of overwhelmed and frustrated. And so that helps me helps me make decisions of who I'm hanging out with, what I'm doing, what I have time on my calendar for creative time, more flow time, more deep connection, more restorative time, or, and just working smarter because I don't wanna, I actually, you know, I don't wanna stop doing things. I am actually one of those people who identifies like when everybody didn't like the word hustle, I didn't view it as what that was like. Like I actually, I actually really love— like, I can't wait to have a bunch of projects that I'm obsessed with, but it starts to feel like hustle when I'm not organized and when it's not aligned with the things that I want to be doing. So yes, organized is my word.

There can be multiple versions of, of lots of words, and hustle is one of them. So yeah, and the cool thing about your words, like, you get to make it whatever you want. Like, totally, you could have your word be something weird and just make it whatever you want.

Yeah, I totally agree. Well, I've loved chatting with you, and your book is revised and even better than ever and fits even more with the times right now. How do you feel now that it's back out?

Relieved, like relieved and excited for her to be reborn, revised and updated. Yeah. And it's so funny because the original cover, the pink cover, the picture that's— it's a picture of me, it was taken in 2012. And I totally remember the revised version now I grew my silver hair out. And so in that picture, I was 48 when it was taken. And I look back at the pink cover and I'm like, who is this child? Like, who is this child? I was like 37.

Yes.

I felt like such a baby. But it's fun. It's fun. And I'm so appreciative.

I believe I found the book in— yeah, I found it in an airport. That's how I found you. I'm going back to my memory bank. I saw it in an airport. I was like, oh, she looks cool. Oh, I love I love this title. And I read the book, I believe I completed it on my flights for that trip because it was such a good, fun, easy, fast, amazing read. So— Yeah.

Yeah. That's the way I wrote it. And I'm glad that you took that away from it. And it still is. It still absolutely is. And it's, you know, I don't write exactly the same as I used to, but for this book, I went back and was like, okay, I'm going to match this voice, but a little bit wiser, a little bit more big sister-ish. And so I appreciate that. Yeah. And I'm just so glad I found you that way. You're such a gem.

Oh, I'm so happy. And right away, okay, you guys, the coolest part is, please remember that most people, especially if they're like a match for your life, if you feel like this person's a match, which I did, I was like, this, I will get along with this woman. Um, I, I think I DM'd you literally in the middle of reading it and you DM'd me back. And I think I asked you to be on my podcast.

So yes.

And then I was like, well, that works great.

So yeah, we met up in Santa Monica a few years ago.

Go.

Yeah. And the rest is history.

Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on. And you guys, I've linked up, um, the book so that you can grab it. Go let Andrea know what your biggest takeaway was, or if you have questions, more questions on, uh, the journey, you can DM her. Okay, amazing.

I answer.

She, she answers, guys. All right, until next time, everyone, earn your happy. Bye-bye.