Dr. Tiffany Moon: Burnout, Perfectionism & Building a Joy-Filled Life

I had to get rid of the toxic friends.

I love it. Say it louder.

There were just the people who, I don't know how to explain it, but after hanging out with them, I just felt drained.

We don't realize how much that is blocking, like, our creativity, our energy. It's blocking us from, like, really getting to know ourselves and what we're capable of. Tiffany, welcome to the Earn Your Happy podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to have you here because you are talking about your new book, and it's exactly something that's right up my alley, obviously, with my podcast title about earning your happy. And your new book title that's coming out in May is called Joy Prescriptions. Which is so fitting for you. But, you know, the first place that I like to start with people who have just written a book, especially if it's their first book, I would love to hear like what that journey was like. Was it what you expected and what was the biggest thing you learned about yourself?

Oh gosh, it has been a long journey. I first started thinking that I wanted to write a book in 2022 because I was giving a lot of talks. Both medical talks, like anesthesia-related talks on new drugs that we're using and new anesthetic techniques, and then some keynotes at women's conferences and things like that. And people would always come to me after I got off the stage and want to ask a side question, but they didn't want to ask it in front of everyone. And it always had something to do with work-life balance, or how did you start your business, or I want to start on social media like you, but I don't know how, you know, just all those kind of questions. And I would get those the same questions on social media all the time. And I thought, wouldn't it be wonderful if I could write a book and just tell people about where I'm from and the struggles that I've overcome? And then at the end of each chapter, I could leave the reader with a joy prescription to take back to their life. So there's like an action step because I'm a doer. I'm a thinker as well, but I'm really a doer. And, and frequently problems are presented and I'm always like, well, what are you gonna do about it? So that's where the idea from the book came about. I reached out to my friend who was a successful author and I said, girl, like I have this idea for a book, but how do you go about writing a book? And she was like, okay, here's what you need to do. You need to get a literary agent and then you're gonna write a proposal, which is an outline of the book that you have in mind, but not the whole book. And then that person is going to get you with one of the 5 top publishing houses, hopefully, if you want to go the traditional publishing route. And then they will give you an advance for the rights to your book, and then you write the book. Mm-hmm. And I was like, oh, I thought you wrote the whole book first and then totally tried to sell the whole book. I didn't realize you just wrote a proposal, which was still hard, but it was like 60 pages, not 200.

Right.

And then, you know, we had bid day, which is when your literary agent fields phone calls from all the publishing houses who hopefully want to pick up your book. And it was a very nerve-wracking day for me. I literally just sat by the phone and was like, oh my gosh. So we ended up with two people who were interested and kind of, you know, vying for the top spot. And I ended up going with my publisher, Hachette, and they've been wonderful so far to work with.

That's amazing. Yeah, I remember, I think before you write a book, you're just so, you have no idea. I remember I was like, what does a literary agent even do? Like, it's like, you will, someone will find you, help you, and hold your hand. And I love that the first thing that you did was you went to your friend who wrote the book already. That's like the life, that is the life shortcut. Like, go and learn from the people who already did it, which is why also we're excited about your book. Um, okay, so tell me about as far back as you can remember where you learned about about being a doer. You said that you're just more of a doer. Why do you think that is?

I think probably sometime in medical school when I was going through the different rotations, there's a lot of specialties like emergency medicine or internal medicine, which— in internal medicine, you basically are doing a lot of thinking, ordering tests, making phone calls. But I wanted to do something with my hands, and I also love immediate gratification because almost every thing in my life has been delayed gratification. And so when I rotated through anesthesia and I just got to, like, do something and immediately there would be an effect in the patient's physiology. And I'm also a control freak. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I get to control, like, when people go to sleep and when they wake up and their blood pressure. I was like, this specialty is amazing.

That's amazing. I was just thinking that with anesthesia, you being an anesthesiologist, I was like, that is for someone who loves control, that's like like the world's most perfect job because you have to control the entire—

it literally is. But then outside of the hospital, I'm like, why am I not able to control everything? Is that in their traffic? Why is my nanny late? Like, why is it? I'm just like, oh wait, it's not my, you know, job to control everything in life, only in the operating room. So I had to shut off Dr. Tiffany when I go home.

Okay, that's so good, which is probably also why you wrote this book. Okay, so tell me, because if I've learned one thing from talking to 1,300 people, it's literally that we teach what we need the most. So tell me why you wrote this book from your life experience.

Well, that's so profound. I think you're exactly right. We teach what we need the most because about 10 years into being a board-certified anesthesiologist, I just felt unfulfilled and burned out. And I would look around my life and I would think, I have everything that I have ever wanted and more. So for me to even want more is selfish. Like, I'm crazy pants. Like, so many people would kill to have this life that I have. But yet, but yet, something deep within me felt missing. And I didn't know what it was. So that's around the time that Real Housewives of Dallas came knocking on my door. So I was like, sure, I'll join the Real Housewives because I was in this sort of like soul searching. Is this all my life is ever going to be moment? And it like they kind of struck during that opportunity. And so I joined reality TV for a year. That was not the answer.

They're like, we'll take your soul. Yeah.

I was like, no, that's not the right way. Yeah, yeah. I tried stand-up comedy because I thought, you know, I love to laugh and I love—

This is amazing. Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

I'm going to dig in there for a second. You went from Housewives to stand-up comedy. There's so— I mean, there's so much there that also, like, even to do those things, like, takes so much just strength and courage from a person. Were you, like, freaked out by any of that or did that just—

Oh, I was freaked out by all of it. Okay. Like, literally crapping my pants. Throughout all of it. I don't know if people could tell or if I'm just really good. Like, I have a good performance. But also, you have to remember, I'm an anesthesiologist at a large level 1 trauma hospital, so I have patients trying to die on me, like, routinely. Like yesterday.

Yeah.

So I think I have an ability to keep calm under pressure because I was so nervous before my first comedy set, and everybody that I talked to afterwards was like, you did great. We couldn't even tell. You were nervous. I was like, oh my God. Well, I had drank 2 vodka sodas. I had decided that was the optimum level of alcohol to drink before a stand-up set. Yeah, like, this job isn't so bad. At least, you know, I get to drink on the job.

Unlike your other job.

Unlike my other job, it would be very, very frowned upon. I want to make it very clear.

Very clear. We're making that extremely clear. And with comedy, I think that fits in with that. So for you, what was like when you were going to do the stand-up comedy routines? Like, what part of you was it? Like, the perspective of, of the— like, this was not life and death, do you think? Because I just had the realization from you that the fact that you get to be exposed to things that are a lot bigger deal every day, it might make those other things seem a lot smaller. Was that part of it, or not at all?

I was taking the stand-up so seriously. I literally went on Amazon and and bought a book. Like, I typed in like how to do stand-up comedy and whatever the first search thing came was, I was like, buy now. And I was like writing jokes and putting so much pressure on myself. And then I'd scratch it and start over. And it wasn't fun, you know? And then one day I was like, you know what? There's absolutely nothing riding on this. Whether I do amazing or I bomb or somewhere in the middle, there's really no consequence for me. Mm-hmm. It was a fun thing that I was doing kind of as a favor to a friend. I was not deciding to embark on a journey of actually trying to be a stand-up comedian, like, do that for a living and, like, be the next Ali Wong and have a Netflix special. No, this was not that. And I was like, why don't I just have fun with it and, like, stop making it such a chore? And this is something that I picked up in myself before. Like, everything that happens in my life, I somehow managed to take all the fun out of it. I turn it into like, I have to kill it, I don't want to embarrass myself, like, I need to read and like write 1,000 jokes and then practice it 100 times. And not everything in life has to be like that, but because that was sort of my MO, you know, going to school, getting straight A's, graduating from Cornell at the age of 19. Like, that's all I knew to do. And when I figured out that sometimes you can just do things for the sake of doing them and actually enjoying the process versus like just reaching for the finish line, that was when my mind was blown. I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have to kill the fun in everything.

Okay, so first I want to know, where do you think you started applying the pressure to yourself? Was that from something from childhood, or how did that become a thing? Okay, tell me, tell me that.

I mean, I mean, talk to any immigrant Asian first daughter and she will tell you that there's immense pressure put on us externally from our parents. My parents immigrated to the United States when I was 3, left me with my grandparents, and then I joined them when I was 6. And life was hard when we were young. We lived in an apartment. It was not in a good area of town. My dad was technically here on a student visa, so he wasn't supposed to be working, but he found some restaurant that let him wash dishes in the back for $2 cash an hour. Wow. And I just saw my parents struggling to make ends meet and fighting about money and all that kind of stuff. And so I just told myself like, oh, I need to make my parents proud. I need to make their sacrifice worth it. And so, you know, they put a lot of pressure on me externally. And then somewhere within there, I started putting a lot of pressure on myself. And, you know, a lot of the book talks about letting go of the need to be perfect all the time. Because when I was growing up, like, the goal was perfection all the time. And that held me back from a lot of experiences and opportunities because I kind of wouldn't put myself out there unless I knew I would be perfect at it. and I would never want to try anything fun or a new hobby or try out for a class play or something because there was no guarantee that I could be perfect. And therefore I was just like, I'm not going to do that. I'll just stick to studying then, you know, because I know I can nail that. And it— I think it held me back a lot. And it really wasn't until my mid-30s that I really started to deconstruct where this limiting belief came from and in how many ways it was holding me back. And that's sort of when the book unfolds. And, you know, I had all these new experiences that really opened up my eyes to all of what the world has to offer instead of just having blinders on and focused on the finish line.

Okay, so there's, there's so many people who struggle with perfectionism. I don't as much, but my husband did and— or does— did, did a lot more. But he's worked so hard on it through the years. But it is like, it's so hard to watch somebody struggle with it because it stops them from exactly what you said. It like really stopped him from living a lot of his life and doing fun things. Like, we couldn't even go to certain places or do certain things. Like, I'll give an example. He'd be fine with it. Like, he's gotten some hair surgeries now, but his like hair would bother him so much that I love surfing, I love snowboarding, I love being outside in certain things. And if certain people were like around him in certain ways, or he was so self-conscious, he wouldn't want to get his hair wet, he wouldn't want to be out on a windy day. I was like, I cannot— I don't— I didn't understand it. So I've actually had to learn how to have a lot of compassion for it. And then of course, as I learn, I start to talk to so many people who are frozen. Like so many entrepreneurs are literally frozen before they can post on social media, before they can think of even letting themselves have fun or look stupid or be silly or like anything. Like, it's crippling. Crippling. Yeah. So you probably get to talk to so many people about that because obviously we can attract those people if that's something that we're dealing with. So tell me kind of some of the things or some of the things that you've heard from people, like the most common things, and also where do they start? Like, what do you tell them?

I mean, a lot of people come to me, they're medical professionals and they're like, hey, I have this idea for a baby product, or I want to make my own skincare line, or I want to open my own flower shop, but I'm afraid what other people will think. And it's, it's always this, I don't know, undercurrent of if you are a professional of some sort and you start a side hustle business, that it somehow invalidates your profession, or people think you don't take your job as seriously, or whatever it is. And I'll go ahead and say that it happens more to women than to men. I think women and men are both harder on women than on men, for whatever reason. I also think that it's true when it comes to hobbies, that, you know, my hobbies are largely going to the spa and— I mean, shopping is my cardio and my husband likes to play golf and, you know, go fishing with his guy friends in Cabo and stuff like that. And, and I think when we talk about our hobbies, unless a woman is doing something that benefits the home or the family, like cooking or decorating or knitting or gardening, which are all very utilitarian hobbies, there's kind of this judgment like, oh, you shop, like that's your hobby, you spend money, haha, you know? And I'm like, no one questions my husband traveling and going to play golf with his buddies for a whole weekend. But when I go to New York Fashion Week, it's a problem, you know? So I think there's that. And as far as your question goes with perfectionism, I mean, this is going to sound trite, but you just have to get over it and you just have to start.

I've started so many different businesses and I have to tell you that every single time I've started one, I have been terrified. It didn't get easier because each business was so different. You're always wondering, is anyone gonna buy this? Are these events gonna fill? Is anybody even gonna like this product? And now I know that it was absolutely the right thing to believe in myself and launch my businesses, launch my podcast, despite all of the fears and hesitations that I had. It also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side, like I did. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names like Glossier to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store and matches your brand style. Accelerate your efficiency, whether you're uploading creating new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.com/happy. Go to shopify.com/happy. That's shopify.com/happy. I've been in situations where I have needed a new employee and new help in my business immediately. And the last thing that you wanna do is waste time on people who don't actually understand what you do. I want somebody who can come in and understand the workflow. They can contribute right away. They can help us move forward. They can help us scale. And that's why I'd use Indeed Sponsored Jobs. When you need the right person, not just another CV, this is a job for Sponsored Jobs. When workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire, this is a job for Sponsored Jobs. Indeed Sponsored Jobs gets you quality candidates when you need them most. Stop struggling to get your job post even seen on other sites. Match with quality candidates with Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Get matched with and hire quality candidates who can drive the results that you need right now. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed.

I have a lot of clients that hire me for social media consulting and they're like, how do you come up with all these ideas for your reels? And you just post them and whatever. And I basically, you know, show them how the sausage is made and I'll kind of show them how to film and edit and put the light here and caption it like this. And they're just like, I could never, like, what if someone from my work sees this? What if my boss sees this? What if my pastor sees this? And I'm like, look, like, who I am on my social media is me. There are different facets of me, just like hopefully, I hope there are different facets of you. And people need to love or like or accept all the different facets of you. And if they don't, those were never your people anyway. But the fear is always that when you start putting yourself out there, that there's gonna be negativity. So I say, go ahead. Go ahead and set the expectation that anytime you decide to put yourself out there, whether on social media or you're gonna have a leadership position or, you know, do something at your child's school, even there's gonna be some negative backlash because it's just impossible that 100% of the people who meet you will like what you're doing. That's simply human nature. Mm-hmm.

Oh my gosh. And, you know, talking about social media, because it's such a big part of our culture, our businesses, I mean, literally everything. And I think in order to get good at anything, the hard thing about social media for people is it's the public learning, except we all have to do it. It's like when we got to first ride our bike when we were kids, we didn't have an audience of, you know, 3,000 people, our family or hundreds of— or whatever it is, you know. And to criticize us. But the thing is, is the person who is willing to deal with a tiny bit of criticism— because honestly, yes, it's going to come, but it's not that bad in the beginning. It can affect you for longer. But I always feel like the person who can handle, like, the most criticism is also the person who's going to be paid the most. And so I kind of, like, play with these little things in my head where I'm like, okay, the person who can handle the most risk is probably going to be the financially abundant person, the person who can handle the most, you know, pain or those haters, like they're also going to be super abundant in another way. And so I try to switch it into going, this is just what comes with the territory. And it's like we're all going through it, we're all going through it. It's just not everybody sees it because we just block and delete right away. So it's great, right?

Right. And I think you're exactly right. Like, if you can't handle a little troll negativity on social media, then you better buckle up buckle up for business, baby, because it's gonna get rocky. I mean, there are so many days like people don't pay their invoices on time, I'm chasing people down, people agreed to something and they don't hold up their end of the deal. Like, it's gonna happen. Part of being an entrepreneur and running a business is being ready for the hiccups that will inevitably happen. So social media really just goes right alongside with it.

Okay, so this kind of going hand in hand with that, so you were a housewife for a year which probably like brought on this tidal wave of everything good and bad all at once. Were you prepared for that? And how did that feel? How did you manage what came with that?

I was not prepared. I was already on social media before I was a housewife. I was bigger on TikTok than I was on Instagram. I think maybe I had like 100,000 TikTok followers and maybe 10,000 Instagram. But when Housewives started airing, I mean, every day I would wake up and have like thousands of new followers, you know, and it was just crazy. And the thing I didn't realize about going on Housewives is that like your entire life is up for discussion, your marriage, your job, your kids. And the fights that we had on the show were so stupid that I couldn't believe that people on the internet were like taking sides and like making it a thing. And the most weird part of it is that by the time it aired, we're now talking and re-arguing about something that happened 6 months ago, which I barely even remember. And I'm not like a grudge holder. Like, if we have a disagreement and we talk it out and we hug it out, like, I'm good. I'm not the type to bring it up at an argument 6 months later and be like, well, remember when you did this and this and this? Like, once once I let it go, I truly let something go. But that is not the way Housewives work. It's like you have to experience it in real life the first time, then again when it shows on TV, and then you have to go to reunion and sit next to Andy Cohen on a stage in full glam and like argue it out some more. And I was just like, this is exhausting. Like, I don't know how people do this, because when you're just a viewer I don't think that all that comes across. You know, as a viewer, you're not thinking like, "Oh, this was filmed 6 months ago, and here they are, like, tweeting about it right now." Totally.

It's kind of like writing a book. Like, I remember, and probably when you wrote about, you know, your childhood and where you came from, like, you have to sit— It was the weirdest experience. I was like, "Oh, my God. I didn't realize I was gonna have to, like, really sit and feel into this trauma and go back to the memory in order to write about it." it. And I remember my husband came home because I had written a certain chapter about something, and I was like, I just had the worst day ever, like reliving this experience to do that. And so it's like that on Housewives. I'm gonna— we need to make you a t-shirt that says, too healed for Housewives.

Um, experience the exact same thing. So the beginning of the book is about my immigrating to America, because really, honestly, that's one of the first and core memories I have. I mean, I remember a little bit about like being in China. I remember the layout of my grandparents' apartment. I remember going to the market and things like that. But you know, you have a few like core memories that are into your brain, and one of them was coming on the airplane from Beijing to JFK by myself with the flight attendant, and I just just— the book opens with that scene.

How old were you?

I was 6. Wow.

By yourself?

By myself with a flight attendant. And the first few chapters are about my early childhood here in America. And just like you, I had to relive those years, which was, you know, over 3 decades ago. And I cried, and I, I distinctly remember texting my therapist and asking for extra sessions during the part of the book where I was writing, like, the first 3 chapters, because I had really buried a lot of that childhood trauma coming from China, not knowing any English, being called Ching Chong at school and being made fun of with the kids, watching my parents fight about money. Having to move schools every 1 or 2 years in the middle of the school year, and, you know, having to make new friends all over, like all of these things. And it just came all pouring out at me. And those first 3 chapters were probably the most difficult of the book. One, because they were first and I had to get going. And two, because like you said, you really have to transport yourself back to that time in your life so that you can truly write from the heart and write in a way that connects with the reader. And in many ways, that was kind of traumatizing for me.

Mm-hmm. Looking at your life now, it's— for so many people, it's kind of unfathomable to think about, especially how viscerally I just felt what you said. For that little girl to be doing what you're doing now, oh my God, it's gonna make me cry. I know it's a million little steps, like it's a million little steps and stories and things along the way. Did you know when you were young that you were destined for something bigger at all?

No, no, no, no. You know, sometimes you talk to people and they'll be like, ever since I was a little girl, I knew I would be something big and great and something. No, no. Like, I am living beyond my wildest dreams. As a little girl, I thought that if I became a doctor, like, that was the be-all end-all. If I, you know, got married and had children. Like, that was it. I never imagined having influence and having people write me emails and DMs saying that, like, they look up to me and I'm inspiring to them. I'm like, what? Like, no, that's the truth. As a little girl, I never could have even dreamed this big, which is why I felt so bad when I was going through that kind of midlife crisis as my as he likes to call it, and asking myself, like, is this it? Because the answer was like, well, you have so much. Of course this is it. Like, you should be grateful. But something was missing. And the missing link was the connection and the joy. Because going to the hospital 5 days a week and taking trauma call and raising twin toddlers, I'm telling you, it doesn't leave much room for connection or joy. And, and what I figured out is that I needed to build my tribe of bliss and be surrounded with other amazing, powerful women who are building businesses and building communities and uplifting other women in the process. And when I started doing that, I was like, oh, this is it. This is, this is what I feel alive doing.

Okay. I, I resonate with you so much in I think in the beginning, just because of the way that I was raised, just a lot more, you know, always struggling financially. Parents went bankrupt. Then when I got married, my husband and I lost everything. So it was like this cycle, this ongoing cycle of just kind of struggle. And from a very small town, restrictive religion, like not allowed to hang out with people outside of the religion that I was in. So that created like just a very small bubble to me. And so when I was, you know, 18 to 20, it was like I started to learn, probably a lot like you from what I'm picking up, like you just start to adapt to trying to survive and you start to do things because you don't want to go back to what you were or because you want to— a big factor for me, which I'm curious for you, was like, I want to pay for my parents, I want to help my parents, like I don't want them to be in this position anymore. But then what ended up happening is it it turned me into such a driven person who never enjoyed anything. It's like all of a sudden I woke up in my late 30s and I told my husband, I go, I don't know if I have enjoyed one day of any of this success. It's like I couldn't even be present for it. Like, like I wasn't even ever there. And I was always just like finding, like saying why it was hard or why it was challenging or why it felt draining or whatever that was. And for me, it was the same exact thing. It was connection that like brought me back to that joy place. And because I also could not operate that way anymore, I was like, what is this? Looked around at my life, like, was this worth it? Everything I built, like, what was it even for? So that's what really brought me back to that joy place. And so I'm curious, I want to know about like, what were those— what were those first joy things that you even started to do? Because it can feel— people can be like, does that Does that part of my brain even work? Like, I honestly wondered that. I was like, am I even like a happy person? Is there something wrong with me? So can you kind of tell me like about the first things that you start doing? What's the timeframe that that kind of started to take you?

I would say one of the first things was learning to say no to things that I actually didn't want to do. Yes. Because I would say yes to anything. You know, I was like planning birthday parties for people people that I wasn't even close with because somebody asked me to. And, you know, there's so many private schools around here, and they always ask for like donations and things like that. I was just saying yes to everything without like there being a purpose and intention to it. So now I pick like 3 main charities, and those are my 3 main ones for that year. Another one, and this is gonna, I don't know, rub people the wrong way, I had to get rid of the toxic friends. I love it.

Say it louder.

Some of them were new friends that I think just wanted to be next to me because of Housewives. Or I'm always a very generous person, and every time we go to happy hour, I just end up paying because it's like not a big deal to me, whatever, you know. And, and some of the toxic friends— and these were harder— were people that I had known for like a decade. And when I thought about it, I'm like, how come this person only calls me when they need something? Like, they never text text to like, you know, say, "Hi, how are you? I'm thinking of you. I saw this funny thing and it made me laugh, so I thought of you. How are your kids? You know, let's get together." It was only like when they needed something medical or they needed business advice or they wanted to know who developed my website, which all of these things I am more than happy to share. But it became very apparent to me that they had like a very one-sided conversation or one-sided relationship. And then there were just the people who— I don't know how to explain it, but after hanging out with them, I just felt drained. There was the chronic complainer, which, you know, we'd have dinner together and be having wine, and she would just bitch about everything under the sun. And look, we all vent. I sit down and vent to my girlfriends plenty. But I'm telling you, this was a different level of complaining that was like she had nothing nice to say.

I'm familiar.

And I'm like, why am I friends with this person? And one day my husband's like, oh, what are you doing? You know, my husband and I have a planning session Sunday afternoon for 30 minutes, and we look at our calendars for the rest of the week and talk it out and do all that stuff. It's not sexy at all, but it is probably one of the key foundations of our marriage.

Totally.

And he said, what do you got going on this week? And I said, well, Thursday I have to have dinner with so-and-so. And he goes, I thought you didn't like her. And I was like, I don't. Why Why are you having dinner with her then? And he said, because she asked me to. And he was like, you know, there's this word called no, right? And I'm like, yeah, I mean, I can pretend I'm busy, but then she'll just ask next week or whatever. So I kind of had to like have a come to Jesus with myself first and then with her and be like, I don't think we're like moving in the right place in our friendship. I think, you know, maybe we need some space apart. I had to like break up with her.

Did you have that talk? Okay.

Because everybody I had to like break up with her because she was like, oh, not this Thursday, how about next Thursday? And I'm like, I'm busy next Thursday. In fact, I'm always busy because I don't like you.

So how did you start that? Like, did you— because here's what I always get asked, okay, but how do I have the conversation? Because it's like one of the hardest conversations for people. But I'm like, it's harder to keep seeing that name on your calendar and give someone like a full freaking half day of your life all all the time.

Yeah. Okay. This is like not BS at all. I totally did the, it's not you, it's me.

Okay.

Which is partially true. I said, you know, I'm working on myself. This was the time that I hired an executive coach. I was seeing not one but two therapists for different reasons and still working a lot and running clinical trials and stuff. And I literally said to her, I'm just in a season of my life where I'm really focused focusing on my work, myself, and my family. And unfortunately, there's just not time in the day to be having dinners with girlfriends and happy hours. And you're not the only one that, you know, I'm saying no to. There are other people. And all of this was true. So I kind of—

totally—

the blow. And everything I said was true. You know, I was in a season where I was working on myself. And she took it fine and then went and and, you know, found another group of friends and everything was fine. So it wasn't a bad breakup at all.

Yeah, I think, I think that is literally my answer for everything, is like, you, you kind of have to do what you have to do in those situations because some people are not prepared to hear like, well, let me tell you why, you know what I mean? Like, they're not gonna— it's not gonna be useful to tell her you're really negative, you only talk shit about everybody. Like, that's actually going to be use— because you know she's not going to change from that. It's only going to make it worse. It's going to make her feel bad, and then it's going to make her talk about you. So that's like, it's not the best use of that conversation. So I do think like trying to figure out how to dance around it in a nice way that is going to let you both off of the hook is just— and once you, once you figure those things out, I'm like, ooh, rinse repeat. Let's, let's use this.

Who else, who else can I use?

Who else can I tell this to? Okay. Um, I love that. So how did you feel when that stuff started happening? Like, what did you start noticing about your life from taking these, like, not easy to do things? Like, after the first few times you did it, like, after that first hard conversation, after telling people no, or you weren't going to donate to these places, like, what did that start feeling like?

I mean, it felt tough, but then afterwards I was kind of relieved, and, and I had to remind myself, like, I don't owe anyone anything, you know? Why do I walk around the world, like feeling small and like I owe something to everyone. Like, I don't owe anyone anything. I should hold my head up high. And, and that kind of gave me the space to help people in other ways that I didn't before, because I was so busy doing all these little things. It's so hard to explain. And, and after I let go of the need to be perfect all the time and I sort of was just like, eff it, like, whatever, you know, I opened a candle business, I started posting more on social media. Because before I had a social media, but I never posted myself, I just would watch other people's things because I was always afraid, like, what if somebody sees this? What if they think I'm unprofessional? You know, all those things that Lori Harder— and then when I was just like fed up and I was like, I'm just gonna do whatever I want, it was so freeing to just finally just be myself and not have to hide different parts of myself because I was afraid of what other people might think. It was very freeing. And that's also when I started doing, like, silly TikTok dances and challenges and those sorts of things. And my kids and I would just be, like, rolling on the floor laughing because we were having such a good time. And it just felt like this huge weight had been lifted off of me.

I swear. I mean, and that's so inspiring. It motivates me to say no even more because I'm in such a season of that, like last year and this year for sure. You know how, like, I don't know, it's like I hit my 40s and all of a sudden I'm like, what am I getting rid of? Like, let's get it out of my life. Um, it's like your tolerance is much lower for things, and I don't know why that is, but it's, it's just like flipped for me. But what I've noticed is that as I've said no, I actually feel like I'm getting parts of myself back or parts that I've never met. Kind of like how you said, like, oh, I was like funny and creative. And like, these parts come like rushing back in because they're no longer energetically like wasted or tied to someone that you're giving— like, when you think of your friend you didn't want to go to dinner with, I guarantee you saw that on your calendar and it affected you every single day and every single time you would see it. Like, it's just like a, oh, I I can't believe I said yes to this. I like betray myself every time I say yes to this woman because she drives me bananas. And we don't realize how much that is blocking like our creativity, our energy, all of the things in our life. It's blocking us from like really getting to know ourselves and what we're capable of.

Yes, I agree completely. I just told my assistant yesterday because some— something fell through that we were trying to do, and I was like, you know what, I don't have any Fs left to give. And she was She goes, me neither. And I said, you know, this is what happened in my 20s. I cared so much. I cared so much what other people thought. And I dressed perfectly and I would, like, not even go outside my door unless I had a full face of makeup on because, you know, I just cared so much. And then in my 30s, I started caring a little bit less when I started figuring it out. And now in my 40s, I'm like, this is me. I don't give a shit. I'm a good person. I would like to be your friend. Do you feel the same? Circle yes or no.

You just—

you know what I mean? Like, I think there's just no pretenses and no games. And I like— this is me, who I am. And if you don't like it, like, that's okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amen. So connection is such a huge part of your book, and I know that it's like what kind of has like flipped things for you. Tell me what connection means to you now. Like, what role do you believe that it plays in our lives and in our happiness?

I mean, there was a study not too long ago that the Surgeon General put out saying that our nation has a loneliness epidemic and that loneliness is as dangerous, physiologically speaking, as smoking cigarettes. And I read that again and I said, that's insane. So you're telling me that in a world where I can pick up my phone and call and text and DM and post to everyone and everywhere, that we're disconnected? Like, where did we go wrong? It's the fake connection. It's the I have this many followers on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube. That's not real connection.

So are you that person who follows every travel page on Instagram, Pinterest, and you're the one who's always planning the girls trips, the family trips, the friends trips, and you love it down to every single detail? Imagine if your love of planning vacations could actually become a source of income. With Fora, you get the training, tools, and insider access to your passion into real earnings as a travel advisor so you can build a thriving business on your terms, all alongside your job, family responsibilities, and other passions. Fora is a modern travel agency built for people who love to plan travel and help others travel as well. Their tech platform, training, and community give you everything you need to turn a passion for travel planning into a flexible, meaningful stream of income. Every hotel, Every hotel, cruise, or activity you book as a Fora advisor earns you money in the form of a commission or a percentage of the booking cost. Getting started can be easy as booking trips for people you already know. Now that's time to finally turn your passion for travel into a fulfilling business with Fora. Become a Fora advisor today at foratravel.com/happy. That's foratravel.com/happy. And make sure you tell them we sent you. floratravel.com/happy. Have you ever left a meeting thinking, oh my gosh, that was so productive, and then 10 minutes later you're pinging someone like, wait, what am I supposed to do? Or worse, you've been heads down the entire meeting, furiously typing notes instead of actually listening, and now your camera's off and your brain is fried. Meetings are a mess, and you guys, Granola fixes that. Granola is an AI-powered notepad built for the way real people actually meet. And here's how it works. You take rough notes like you normally would, and in the background, Granola securely transcribes the meeting. Then it turns everything into clean, structured, actually useful notes when the meeting ends. And the best part is that Granola works through your device's audio, which means it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools you already use. So there's no setup and there's no awkward bots. It's just your normal meeting with superpowers. You get to actually listen instead of frantically typing every single word and still walk away knowing exactly what was decided, who's doing what, and what comes next. So no balls are dropped. You guys, I love this because so many times I get off of a ton of meetings all day long and I feel like I didn't do anything because I don't even know what to do next, and I feel so overwhelmed, like I wasted the whole day not really being clear on anything. It saved so much time. I can just look back, know exactly what my tasks are, and it helps me feel so good about my day. So if meetings are eating up your day, Granola is a no-brainer. You can try it totally free for 3 months. Just head to granola.ai/earn. That's granola.ai/earn to get your time back. Get 3 months Sign up for Earn's free at granola.ai/earn.

The real connection is, is sitting with someone and, and having a glass of wine, or me and my husband having our Sunday chat, or me with my kids just watching a movie. I used to run a movie for my kids and work on my laptop because my thinking was, well, they're watching the movie, they're getting the screen time, who cares what mommy is doing? And I'd be working, I'd be sending emails, you know, doing things on Canva, whatever. And then my kids would always like, Mommy, watch, Mommy, watch. And I'm like, you know what? If we're going to have movie night tonight, I need to quit deluding myself into movie night is me getting to catch up on 2 extra hours of work while my kids watch a movie. When I watch it with them, it actually is an activity that we do together and we can talk about the movie because I actually saw it, or we play a game or we go outside for a walk. The point I'm trying to make is we need to strive for this true connection and stop trying to do this fake connection over the phone because that's not it.

I totally agree. It's, it's, it's like changed my life. It's made my life. It's probably saved my life. All of the above. And one of the things that I really started doing, I'll start with this. I was just actually this morning reading Mel Robbins' new book.

Let Them?

Yes. So, oh my gosh. So have you gotten to the part yet where she talks about like a good friend is about like if you have to spend like 72 full hours with them, like of like, you know, whether that's how many times you've, if you go to wine with them, that's you're logging like 2 hours at a time, 2 hours here, 2 hours there. That's gonna take a really long time to become really close friends with someone. And she said like 200 hours, the study shows, like you start to become really good friends. And I was thinking about this because the last, I think it's been almost 2 or maybe 3 years that I've been doing this, where if it's women that I really wanna get to know, I will get us together for a weekend. Even if I don't know you, it might be a weird ask, but I'll be like, hey, I'm getting 5 women together, we're going to stay at this hotel, we're going to mastermind a little, but we're also going to go to the spa, we're going to eat dinner together, we're going to do all these things. And so there's one group in particular that this is now, I think, the, the 4th or 5th time that we've been together. And I was like adding up the hours and I was like, oh my God, this is so true that we are now hitting this place where the, the conversations that come out on hour 120 of being together, because you're putting in 10 hours a day every single time, you know, when you, when you do those weekends together, that we're at a place where we would have never— it like accelerated the relationship, the rela— between all of us. You just, you don't share things right away. It takes time. When you think about, you know, the, the friends that you were friends with, it was because they were in your dorm room. Like you got to talk to them every single day. Like things started coming up cuz you started to feel comfortable. Or it was late at night or it was early in the morning, you were having coffee together. And so I'm trying to create those experiences where you can kind of accelerate these adult friendships because I'm like, I can't wait till I'm 60 for us to be close because like, I need to make some more girlfriends. It's like connection has truly been the thing where I feel— I used to think that I was really anxious and maybe fairly depressed. Like, I wouldn't— it wouldn't be all the time, but I would go through bouts. Like, it'd probably be, you know, once a quarter I'd be like, oh, I'm really struggling, like really struggling energetically, emotionally. I go through that thing where you're like, do I really have friends? Who would I call right now? And I was like, I don't ever want to be this way again. How do I combat this? And truly it was like doing these things where I make sure I see people and see them frequently and take the time to invest into those friendships. And I can honestly tell you now, I don't have that happen anymore. Like, I don't feel my anxiety Anxiety's gone way down. I don't feel lonely. I feel super on purpose. I feel extremely energized. It's like my whole life is different.

No, I love that. I've been telling people that you have to have joy as a prevention for loneliness and depression and burnout. It, it can't be an afterthought. So these retreats that you go on with your girlfriends, like, that's your joy, that's you investing in your friendships and your connection. And I'm sure there's lots of laughter in there that feeds your soul, which then gives you a little bit of leeway when you go back into your normal life and life starts happening again, that you don't want to just crawl under a blanket and cry yourself to sleep because you now have a little bit of buffer, um, in your, uh, resilience, um, for life, really, because life is so hard, you know? Like, it, it didn't used to be this hard. And I love technology and I love AI, and we're able to do incredible things like have this podcast even though we're in two separate cities. But also, all this connection and technology has really kept us away from being close with one another. Like, I'm just as guilty. Sometimes we'll be at the dinner table and like every single person at the dinner dinner tables on their phone. And I'm like, why the hell are we having dinner together and we're all just on our phones? Put your phone down. Talk to me. Talk to my face.

Yes, exactly.

So yeah, I think building connection and filling your joy bucket gives you more resilience for going out there. This is what I tell my husband so that I can have like a girls trip every 3 to 4 months. Like, babe, you got to stay home this weekend. I'm going to go away to Cabo I'm going to go with the girls because I need to work on my joy and resilience. And when I return, I will be much happier and not as snappy. And, you know, and that's the, you know, how I sell the girls trip to him. It's so—

it is so true. Tell me about what you think, like, your girls trips and having girlfriends and having that, you know, filling your cup time does for your marriage. Marriage?

Oh, I mean, it's absolutely essential. I mean, my husband is truly my best friend. I adore him. But like, I just, I don't want to be around him 24/7. I know that I think you and your husband, you know, used to or still work together. Like, I could never.

I sometimes I feel that way.

They say absence makes the heart grow fonder. And I'm like, babe, I can't miss you if you're never gone. Like, I am an introvert. And I like a lot of me time. I love to meditate and journal and read and listen to podcasts and light my candles and play with skincare things. And that rejuvenates me. And he always wants to talk, and I'm like, quit talking. I'm having my quiet. He's like, how was your day? How was this? How was your dinner? How's your business going? And I'm I don't want to talk right now. I'm having quiet time.

You're like, it's not during our meeting. Okay.

Yeah. So we have a date night every night. Every night. Once a week we have a date night. It's usually Thursday because that's the day the nanny stays late. And then Sunday we have our powwow, looking at our calendars, syncing them, any trips that are coming up. And I don't know, we just celebrated our 13-year wedding anniversary.

Wow. Congratulations.

So I'm no love expert, but I think, you know, as far as marriages go, there's give and take, and you either grow together or you grow apart. And, and so we intentionally do things so that we grow together.

What are some things that you guys like to do to grow together?

Well, we love to travel. We love to eat. I love going to comedy shows, um, because I just love a good laugh, you know, where you're like laughing so hard you're gonna pee yourself. Like, that's a good laugh. Like, that's all the dopamine, all the endorphins. And we like to just be physical and, and try a new workout class. Like, we'll go to Barry's, we'll go to hot yoga. I got him to go to Pilates and he was like, work. That was much harder than I thought. And I was like, mm-hmm, you know, like on the reformer with the springs. And yeah, he thought I'd just like go over there and like bounce around for an hour. And he was like, that was hard.

My husband did a barre class once and he was like, oh my God, what? Just like, he was staying at a resort, you know, and it was like the only class that morning.

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna go to the ballet barre and do this.

And he literally was like dying dying. He's given so much credit to people who do it.

He's like, I think I use muscles. I don't even know what those are. Yeah, they go to the gym, they're doing the big things, look good. But then when you do little kicks or whatever, and he's like, oh, I didn't even know I had obliques. Jesus.

Oh my God, it's the best. Okay, so tell me about some of the prescription in the book that are your favorite?

Oh gosh, this is like choosing your favorite children. I know. Um, one is comparison is the thief of joy. Mm-hmm. And, and it, it, it's easy and you hear it and you're like, duh, that's not that revelational. But how many times do you catch yourself comparing yourself to something else? Someone else is farther in their business, they make more money than you. I don't care what it is, but stop comparing yourself to other people because it's a zero-sum game. And I always say, quit looking at how big someone else's slice of cake is and just enjoy your own damn cake. Hmm.

Oh God, that's so good. Especially since the things that we are so tied to and addicted to, you know, with social media. I had heard this once before and it was just like so simple but so eye-opening to me. It's like the algorithm is actually actually created to make you judge every post, but judge it against you. So do I like it? Do I not like it? Is this person better than me? Are they not better than me? Do they have more followers? How many likes does this post have in comparison to like where I'm at? And I thought, holy crap, like we literally get on there and your brain can't help but compare it to where you're at and who you are. And so every morning we wake up and we're like, are we better than? Are we less than? Are we are we less than? And both are not good for the psyche. It's like robbing us of joy. For you, for someone who— I mean, like, we have to be on social media for our jobs. How do you create like a boundary? And are you able to keep it joyful at all?

Yeah, I mean, I ask myself, you know, I usually set a timer for like 15 or 30 minutes and that's my break for social media. So when the timer goes off, like, I'm done scrolling. And it's just like at the end of your 15 or 30 minutes when your timer goes off, like, how do you feel? Did you get some laughs? Did you make a connection? Did you find out some news? Like, one of my friends is coming out with a book and, and she's posting content about her book launch and I'm so excited for her. You know, is it giving you information? Are you being entertained? Or when your 15-minute timer goes up, you're like, man, I suck. Everyone out there is like winning awards and building their businesses. Having anniversaries and birthdays, and I'm over here sitting in my pajamas, you know, eating Cheerios for lunch. Like, how are you using social media? Because at the end of the day, social media, like anything else in life, is a tool, and you get to choose how you use that tool. Do you use it for your benefit, to market your business, make connections, be entertained, learn new things, or or is social media controlling you and, and you're, you know, a slave to the phone and checking how many likes every time you post and how many followers someone has. Like, who cares? What an exhausting way to live. And as soon as you change your mindset around that is when it's going to change. Like, it's never going to change until you change your mindset.

What do you want people to know about your book? What do you want them get from it?

I want people to get joy from the book. I want people to read it and see where I came from and the lessons that I learned. But most of all, I want them to take that lesson back to their own life and infuse more connection and gratitude and laughter into their own life. Because I think our nation is at a lack of joy. We have so much, but yet the rates of, you know, depression and loneliness and self-harm are at an all-time high. So I think there is a critical need for us to inject more joy into our lives.

I love that. It's so, it's so incredibly important. And I can tell you that I've never sat with a good book and regretted it because it's such a beautiful way to connect with yourself. Connect with the author, remember, like there's something about reading a book. You really remember how we're supposed to be, especially a great personal development book. So I'm so excited for you. I'm excited for this book. I think it's gonna be freaking amazing. Um, and the cover's awesome, you guys. So go and check it out. Joy Prescriptions. Um, and it's how I learned to stop chasing perfection and embrace connection. Connection, which is just like literally my whole life's motto is to connect with people. So I'm really grateful for you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thank you so much for having me, Lori.

And we will link up below this where you can grab the book anywhere books are sold. I'm sure Amazon, all of the things, and we'll put a link right below for you guys so you can go grab that book. Go and get it. Truly, it's a beautiful book. It's a story. And again, thank you for coming on. And you guys, we're so grateful for you. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.