Get Noticed By TOP MEDIA and Build Relationships That Transform Your Career with Kerrie Lee Brown

What makes a good pitch in order to stand out?

Now, it's not just about, oh, I've made this much money and this is where my business is. It's really about, how did you get here? If you're pitching a glossy, nice print magazine, you know, it depends on photos. They mean so much.

People don't think about that portion. Make it easy for the decision maker. Carrie Lee, welcome to the Earn your happy podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me, Lori.

I feel like this is so much fun that we have had. We have some history. We go way back. It's been like 10 years, even longer. Oh, my.

Honestly, 15 year 20. I mean, it's been a long time. It's funny how our circles kind of run in the same circles. They come back and, yeah, it's very synergistic.

You know, I was. I was talking about you having this podcast coming up. So to bring everybody up to speed, when I used to do fitness covers for Oxygen magazine, you were the editor in chief for a while. How many years were you there?

So I was with that publishing group for 10 years, actually, because I started on the men's side, right, like on the Muscle Mag International, and I launched American Health and Fitness magazine there, which was the first men's celebrity fitness magazine. And then I moved into the women's side. So all in all, I was there for 10 years. Oxygen, I worked on it for about three and a half. Okay. Yeah.

So that's how I came to know you.

Yes.

And then, you know, the reason that you had come up is I was talking about how networking, which we'll talk about too, throughout this podcast, just like having a strong network, but also how you treat people and just creating those relationships. And I can only imagine the relationships that you've had to create, gotten to create, that you've nurtured, that have, like, really paid off for you in the future. But, you know, when you had said that you were at Success magazine, I'm like, wow, look how full circle life comes and how I went in a different direction and you went in a different direction, and then we totally, you know, met that many years later. So now I'm so excited that we get to sit on this couch together and talk about, you know, your career and how that all started. So how did you get started. Started in media? What did that look like for you?

Well, I've been in the media industry, as you know, for 30 years now. It's really dating me. Right. But anyway, yeah, three decades and what it's done, I. It's just crazy. I. I'm from Toronto, Canada. Right. So I now currently live in Denver, Colorado. But it all started back there. I actually originally did my undergrad in political science and international foreign relations. So I thought I was going to be a lawyer. I wanted to go into kind of maybe even politics at that time. Thank God I didn't. But I was definitely on a. On a path, something a little different. And then I ended up taking a media and communications course in my. In my undergrad. And I just fell in love with the art of storytelling. And I thought, wow, I love to write. I've always been a bit, you know, a storyteller, showman, if you will. And I just loved it. And I thought, you know, if I could tell people stories for a living, how great would that be? And I've also been very curious by nature. And so it was just like the perfect kind of avenue to take. So I ended up doing my master's in journalism and. And I studied in magazine journalism. And originally I wanted to actually go into fashion journalism because, you know, as a young girl in her 20s, I just thought that would be cool, wouldn't it? Like, it was just, like, a cool thing. But there was an opening at Muscle Mag International, which was a bodybuilding magazine back in the day, and I knew nothing about bodybuilding. I mean, let's be honest. Like, I worked out, but it wasn't at all my, you know, my thing. And anyway, I just said, I'm gonna go for it. So I went for it. I got an assistant editor job. It was my first, like, real job out there in the world of magazines, which was, you know, hard to get when you're a new graduate. So that's how I started my career. It started in the bodybuilding fitness industry, and then I loved it. I. I really kind of got to know what it was like to not only build relationships, like you said, and network, but also how to establish, like, how to gravitate towards different audiences and how to write for different audiences and storytell. And one of the biggest learnings for me was working on those men's magazines because I was an editor that had to talk to a male audience. And that changed my whole trajectory because it really kind of shaped the way I can now, today, talk to anyone, interview anyone at any level, and, you know, all those kind of things. So that's how my career started.

How did you learn that? So tell me what that looked like when you were like, whoa, I am such a fish. Out of water. Like this is. I'm, I'm speaking in a man's voice. Like I'm trying to essentially sell to this audience, get in their head, understand them. What, what does that process look like for people? Cause so many people who listen to this podcast, they are podcasters or they are on social media, like they, they will greatly benefit from learning how to tell a story and also understand how to get in someone else's head and shoes, you know?

Right, right. And you know, it's really interesting. Cause it's been a process. I mean, obviously, I mean, I've had to grow with my career too. And today being at Success magazine, it's really been able to give me that platform to be able to speak to those real high thought leaders and like the Tony Robbins of the world. I mean, you have to step into those interviews at a different level and you have to be able to go there. So one of the big things is obviously doing your research, right? It's really knowing who your, who your interviewee is and getting to know them. Also getting to know where, how to pivot. And that's a really important thing, especially when you do have different audiences. If you're, you know, you know, talking to men or women or whoever, at any level, you have to know how to pivot because you never know where those conversations are going to go when you're dealing with, of course, experts, right? Experts in their field where they know way more than you do in their own field. And you have to know how to pivot those questions, be really spontaneous. And I think that's just what's come kind of over the years with me. I used to be really, really nervous. I used to have all of my notes and all my questions. And if, if somebody answers something differently, I'd be like, oh my gosh, how do I, where do I go? And. But now it's a lot more of a conversation. I like to have more conversations just like you and what you do. But I do find that even interviews for the magazine, still, it really comes down to that relationship. You make that person feel very comfortable and that you know about them, you know what they're doing, but then also open the floor for them to really share what they want to share, then the interview always takes off from there.

So I love that. So you've had to do, I mean, I'm sure the amount of just kind of like networking favors, different things. You've had to ask behind the scenes to pull off articles, to pull off covers. I mean, you, you guys with success and also with what you did in the past. But with success, you, like you said, you interview like the top celebrities, top thought leaders. Is it easy to get those booked? Is it challenging? What does that look like? Trying to get them involved?

And it has changed. Right. So back again from fitness days. You know, obviously the core of my interviewing and getting people on covers, of course, was fitness competitors and, you know, fitness and wellness and nutrition specialists and all that. And they were the, you know, the top in the industry. So I kind of. I knew who to go to. They all wanted to be in the magazine. It seemed like it was a bit of an easier symbiotic kind of relationship. Right. Because it was very niche. Totally. Now at Success magazine, we focus, of course on entrepreneurship, of course, business owners, top thought leaders, CEOs. But I've also opened it up since I've come to success to solopreneurs, you know, influencers, content creators, podcasters, anyone really starting or doing a business, and also people in the corporate world. So getting people to interview for the inside the magazine is quite easy. A lot of people want the experience, exposure, I would say, like, literally like thousands of pitches, like a week. Like, it really is crazy from PR teams, from individuals, but getting those for covers and also those top, top, like, you know, like, again, the Tony Robbins of the worlds. We just did Mel Robbins. I've, you know, I've interviewed Deepak Chopra, like all these different people. It's. I wouldn't say it's difficult. It's. It's. You have to navigate it. And I'll tell you why. One, you have teams to work with and that you have to go through all the different levels. But two, I also am very cognizant of the strateg editorial. So I put themes to every issue and, you know, it has to be the right timing. So, you know, for example, the Tony Robbins issue we had last. Last spring, it was. But that was our money issue, our finance issue. And he happened to be coming out with a new finance book and how mindset in the money world. And that was just the perfect alignment. So I would say that when we place people on these covers or at least do the planning for those, because right now we're planning like literally up to 12 months in advance. It has to go along with the them theme and the integrity of the actual content. And that's then when I put people into the, you know, into the different places. So it's very strategic and it's also very thoughtful in regards to planning well in advance. And I think that's how it all happens. But again, there's people that I want to get an interview that we haven't been able to land yet. A lot of it depends on their schedules as well and their availability.

Okay, so with that, what makes a good pitch? What makes a good pitch and what is something that right away is like a no for you? Like, you don't even have to really look at it.

Oh, gosh.

You just toss it up because you're like, no, absolutely not.

I get asked to speak a lot about this, right? Like, I get asked to go, because I've worked in media for so long, I do know what an editor wants. Now, I can't speak for all editors, right? Different magazines, different industries. I can't speak for what a fashion editor would want. But in my industry and what I look for, it's really interesting. One spell my name right. I know that seems really particular, but I get my name spelled wrong a lot. And then I'm like, wow. If they can't take the time, you know, to really understand who they're pitching, whether it be a team or an individual, I think that's, that's something that I would kind of probably put to the side or at least consider later. I know everyone, you know, makes mistakes. However, I would say the pitches that really stand out to me are the ones that really incorporate someone's personal story. Because at Success magazine. But some of these magazines like that, I've. All other ones I've worked at as well. My last role was the editor in chief of Denver Life magazine, a luxury lifestyle magazine in Denver, Colorado. And we, we featured a lot of restaurateurs and like high level people in Aspen and hotels and resorts and all these cool things. And everybody has a story. We all know that. But really jumps out at me is that if you can make it unique so that it can resonate not only with our readers, but also that it will bring out a uniqueness that, you know, you are being authentic in your story. It's not just about, you know, these millionaires or billionaires that have made all this money. Because I like to say too, when I first started in journalism, there was no website, there was no social media. You know, we didn't have Google, we didn't have Wikipedia, you know, so we had to do our own research. So that's where even the interviewing skills came in. I used to have to dig into the interviews, like really get to know these people, because how else would you get to know them Nowadays? I could look up anyone and just google them and find out what their net worth is, what you know, how, how even their path and their journey. So in order to stand out now, it's not just about, oh, I've made this much money and this is where my business is. It's really about, how did you get here? Because I think that's what stands out in magazines now, or at least in content. It's a storytelling.

Yeah.

But also it's the things that you cannot find by googling it. That's what I like to include in, you know, my magazine. So I would say back to the pitches. If you, you know, if you can obviously tell your story and as little as it can be in an email. Yes. Not.

That's key.

Yes. It used to be where traditional pitching to magazines were like essays and now nobody has time for that, right? Nobody has time.

Yeah.

The people writing them don't have time. We don't have time to read them. So it's really short and sweet. Couple paragraphs max. And then also again, telling your story, the rags to riches story or the journey or whatever, wherever you come from and about how you're also making an impact today. So again, it's not just about, you know, I've made these millions. I run like a da da da. It really is more than that. And that's what I'm looking for. I can only speak for myself.

Yeah.

But the other thing that's key in pitches too, and I like to tell is photos. If you're pitching a glossy, nice. You know, a print magazine, you know, it depends on photos. We don't do photo shoots for every article. Yeah. So those professional photos, which I know you do a lot, you have like so many beautiful. They mean so much. Because if you don't include a link to photos or at least some examples in the initial pitch, then I gotta go back and say, do you have any photos? I think photos are really important too and to keep up with them. And that's where the personal branding comes in.

I love this. People, People don't think about that portion of make it easy for the decision maker.

Like exactly how easy can we make.

It for you to look at something and say, this is almost a completed package? Like, we're not, we're. This is easy to move on and it's a great story. You know, I learned so much back in the oxygen oxygen days of pitching magazines because I remember the first time like I pitched, it was like when you're young, it's like, look at what I've done like, list all these things out. And then I started to learn from different people, different mentors, going to different, you know, Tony Robbins and just all of these different things that you guys were a business.

Yes.

And there are people behind that business and there are relationships and people who want to be acknowledged and like, oh, those are real people who just want to have, like, a great experience with someone and how can we make their job easier? And everything flipped for me. I was like, oh, how do I help that magazine grow? What can I show them? That I could get them exposure as well on my end? And that my whole world changed.

And it's so true because, you know, and everybody looks at the magazine industry, or at least the world I've worked in for my whole career, and say, oh, it's so fun. Fun and all that. And it is. But like any industry, I mean, there's obviously politics and everything. Yeah, there really is. It's about relationships, especially with print magazine. Not so much today because the world of publishing has changed so much just because of the digital world. I mean, of course, not many, as many advertisers are in the print magazines as they were back in the day. We used to really rely on those. Those dollars coming in from advertisers. So, you know, I'm not saying there was always tit for tat, but it was a part of the industry we were in. And I hate the whole church and state thing. Like, I. I never like to play favorites or anything, but sometimes there was this piece of the business that people outside didn't realize that, like, if we didn't have these advertising dollars and if we didn't work with their teams, we wouldn't have jobs. And that would mean that the readers or people who love those magazines at the time, they wouldn't have the publications to read. So, yeah, you're right. It's absolutely a business like anything. It's not all fun and games. It's not all just at photo shoots. I mean, there is that, but there's a lot of planning, a lot of, you know, strategic planning that goes into a lot of this and now at success, I mean, a big thing I brought to the table there, because I've been there almost two years, is those partner relationships. So, you know, we also do events. We do, you know, different things too. And so we want to make sure that our alignments with our. Sorry, our talent partners in the magazines or events or on, you know, all those different things are aligned because the magazine is a really great vehicle now to promote Our brand of success. So if we can have those alignments and that kind of synergy throughout all of our assets, that's what we're looking for nowadays. And that's also how it's changed. Although I guess back in the day, you would say at the trade shows, remember those big trade show booths, all the girls and all the guys, the fitness ones in particular, I guess that would have been our brand alignment there with the magazine. So now it's really just switched. It's just switched now to more online, you know, speakers bureaus, podcasts, all the different things we do today.

Okay, I'm going to come back to that, but I want to finish up the pitching because for anybody listening, I want to make sure they feel complete because it's a really. It's an important piece.

It is.

What do you think is a good. How many times do people follow up? Yeah, I know for me, like, when I would follow up, I actually went to those events to go and meet.

The editor chiefs to be like, so.

Important, let's put a face to the name. And that also is when I started getting covers because I think they could actually, like, meet someone in person. How does she hold herself? What is this? How does she speak? Like, all of those things? So what does that look like for follow up? What are good tips on, you know, and, and how. How long does it take sometimes to actually get something?

Well, that's the thing. So we work. I am a big advocate of working well in advance. And Success magazine is only a buy. It's a bi monthly six times a year. We do have a digital magazine too, which we launch, which is another six times a year. So we technically have a monthly with 12 times. But people have to also understand when they're pitching is that we're also, you know, if you, if we don't get back to you right away or if we say, yeah, like thank much, will review or. Or put aside for consideration. It's also, it's not necessarily because we're not interested in featuring you. It could just be alignment with, again, our themes or, you know, what's going on in the magazine or if I've already got everything booked for that next issue. Totally. So it's, It's. People just have to be patient. They have to know that something has to click. If I'm looking for an expert or columnist for a specific column in that next issue. And the theme of that issue is money. Like, you just have to kind of be in that realm of what you do for work. It's not anything to do with your business or who you are. But back to what you said. Anytime you can get out and I do go to events and do different things and people come up to me said, oh, it's nice to meet you. I will remember certain people if they really, you know, if they, you know, there's a bit of connection there that will make a difference. I've had a lot of people and a lot of people reach out to me on Instagram and I, I do like, I will get back to you and say hello if I advise you through that or LinkedIn if I advise you to send your pitch then to, you know, editor at Success magazine or editoruccess.com then go and do it. Feel free to drop my name and say remember me from LinkedIn. But also have the patience that those kind of vetting. Like we have a vetting system that will go through my team first but being very patient. But the follow up, I mean I'm, I would, I love follow up because we get so many pitches. It is nice to have like, hey, just wonder if you got my pitch or you know, is there anything I can do? Is there anything I can offer that, you know, whatever in this process that will make it easier. And if you do that, I would say like once after, like maybe if you haven't heard from me in like, like a couple of weeks and maybe follow up. And then if I say, yeah, our team has it, we're looking at it, then I, I would probably leave it for a bit. I mean, maybe a month or so. If you haven't heard, then follow up again. But it's not everyday follow up. I think that's just way too much. And not that I'm the type of person that would say, oh gosh, they're a bother, but it also kind of makes starts to make you look desperate and totally it makes you look like, you know, we look at professionalism of people too. And pitching is such a way to display that and those interpersonal relationships, the follow up, you know, if I do give you my phone number to text me, then text me and just be responsive that way because that will mean a lot to me. I mean, my role as the editor in chief is wonderful because I am empowered to be able to make those decisions. But I'm very fair, I'm very authentic. So as long as we, you know, have a good relationship and there's no, you know, I've had someone recently, funny enough, who didn't have that patience and they were kind of Upset that we hadn't, you know, run their story already. And they only pitched me the week before. I'm like, well, first of all, we worked so far in advance. So then I. And they said, well, I have a book coming. You know, like, I don't, you know, I don't understand. It's very timely and it's this and that. And I said, okay, it's timely for you because your book's launching. Yeah, like, I get that and I respect that because authors work well in advance. It's a really stressful kind of endeavor. But you have to understand we already have a lot of content in the work works. So, you know, I can offer also our online stories on success.com, which could probably get someone out there faster. But then a lot of people want to be in print. And then I'm like, well, then you just have to be patient. And if we have themes coming up, like our, our theme we're working on now for. For July issue. July, August is the business of sports. So, I mean, if you're not in that world, then it just doesn't make sense to be in that issue. So then it might be better off down the road. But yeah, pitching is interesting. I'm sure edit of all editors have their different ways. I know newscasters and, and all these different media outlets are different in what they look for. One other thing I just like to advise too, is this is a big one. Make sure you know and understand who you're pitching, not just the audience of the magazine. Like, not just who's reading it, but who's on staff. And also look up their editorial calendar. Ask for media kits if you can. If that's the first reach out. You want to know what's coming up in their world. Also have looked at the mag. Like, look at the magazine. Magazine, know what columns I've had pitches that are very specific. Like, look, I have all this background, all this experience. I love for you to consider me for your mentor message column. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. They actually know what they're talking about. They've looked at the magazine that is. That is keen for me. First of all, again, like you said, it takes away that extra work for us. Yeah, because I would say, yeah, pass along to my managing editor mentor message down the road. Like, it makes it so much easier if you know who you're pitching, their audience, also their columns, people on the staff. And again, you have to be very professional about it, then that's what's going.

To catch my Eye that is all gold. I love that. All right, let's go back to how the industry has changed. But I specifically also want to talk about how you felt through it all because you, you guys really got rocked there for a while and you're still finding, it's like you had to find a new way of being out in the world and you know, with the different things that I know that you guys have in the works and all the things that you're doing, the masterminds and like you said, kind of really branding success across everything that you're doing. I would love to hear kind of the beginning of when you started to see the decline of, of how magazines and it was going more digital and social and all the different things and, and where you were at during that time.

Yeah. And again, just going back to the beginning we, when I was writing Oxygen and running all these other magazines. I've launched other magazines too and helped overhaul several other consumer magazines. We didn't have websites to represent who that magazine was. I remember all subscriptions were based on newsstand subscription and how many we could sell at trade shows. Like literally old school. And you know, it has changed so much. I mean nowadays, obviously the digital world is booming. I mean we all know that social media and so many other people now I've noticed have really, I have friends from that world that have gone on to launch magazines. Some are photographers and it's so much easier now to do those kind of things. There's so many softwares to do different things. So the way that it's changed now is that we as print specialists, because that's what my background is, it's print magazine. We have had to look at the print world as a caveat to like an asset to the rest of our businesses. So I would say like we don't make our money from print newsstand sales and it's just the way the world is now nowadays. But it's wonderful to still be out there as a, as a public facing consumer. Like you walk into Barnes and Noble or you walk by Hudson, totally in the airport, you see these magazines.

I'm still a print girl of a magazine.

Still love it. It's like books, I mean people still print books. So print is still out there, but in regards to public publishing and editorial, it switched to digital several, I mean several, several years ago. Right. 15 years ago when it really started getting big. 10 years ago. And now if you don't, if you have a print magazine, you have to have that compliment of a digital. You have to because that's where people are going to go to look up whether the print magazine is magazine is even worth getting a subscription to. We've just launched our Success plus membership too, which is our basically success enterprises membership where people can join the success community. That's successful ecosystem, really. Right. So in order to get a subscription and get our magazine, you become a member, but then you also get, you know, access to all of our courses and our events and you know, all these different things as well and our books. And so now, like I said, the magazine is a caveat for our vehicle to be able to brand our business. We still, I mean, gosh, we put so much effort into it and time in it and all of it. It's our passion. People love having it. We've met people that have got had magazines for success like way back and down. Like Russell Brunson is one of those, I mean, incredible collection that he has of the actual magazine. So our success magazine is actually at almost 130 years old. I mean, that is incredible. That is. I always like to joke and say, well, I haven't worked there that long. I've only been there the last two, two years. But it has really come a long way, but it's still going. And I think that again, the digital world world is just aiding in all those different avenues. We can actually promote the magazine but also extend our brand, you know, our footprint basically.

Where do you guys see yourselves going in the next three years?

Right. I think that we're going to be doing more, more and more events, whether they're online and in person. Our first Mastermind, like you said, is coming up first in person. Mastermind in LA is this August. Working on that right now. Lots in store. They're really excited. But those kind of inter, you know, those in person ones which you, you know all too well with your events too. It's, it's, it's that connection, right. It's the actual meeting people. There's one thing about digital events that's great. You can really access so many people worldwide. It's amazing. But the in person I feel is coming back and we're really trying to set that up as well.

In person is so it's, I think it's one of the most powerful modalities of transformation, hands down.

It is, it is.

It's exactly how I would launch my career. Pivot something big, learn something new, take a giant leap. You can do online things all day long, which are good. I also did those hand in hand.

Yeah.

With this. But Whenever I would go to something in person.

Yeah.

And obviously some events are better than others and I know you guys do everything first class, but when I would go to a good event, it would change my entire life, like in a weekend. And that's why we got so obsessed with doing events ourselves too is because I was like, no, this is the fastest transformation.

Yeah.

And especially when you put a little bit more money down for the in person. Money is related to transformation as well. It's accountability.

It is.

The second you put that down, it's like saying to the universe like I'm gonna show up. And that's one. That's your first energetic like commitment to it. And then I think it changes the level of people in the room because to actually commit, money wise, then to fly, then to get in the room, then to overcome all the obstacles, the fears, everything to be in there. It's a different level of commitment you guys have all said yes to without knowing it. Like an unspoken agreement that you're all going to show up.

And like you said, it's the accountability, it's the commitment. Right. It's a commitment to yourself. It's also, that's where it lends into the mindset. You spend this money or you, you take the time to travel somewhere and be amongst like minded people right there. Where you can literally give them a hug. Right. Or you can dance going down. You know, you can dance with people, you can get up on stage. There is definitely an experiential element of of course. And a commitment there that you just do not get from digital. So I'm all about the in person. I've started speaking more myself and getting out there and I love it because you get to really know who you're. And for me I get to know who the people are. Like just this past weekend I was in San Diego, right? That's why I'm here. And I was at an event and somebody came up and said I was in your magazine a few months ago. I'm like, what? Like it's so. It is such a different connection because I can see pictures and even talk to people on zooms all day long. But when you meet them and they say, yeah, look, oh my God, will you sign this for me as the editor? I'm like, oh my God. It's just that connection and then, you know, you're really touching the end user or the consumer.

I think that's gonna, I think that's gonna just like blow your mind and add so much value to everything that you're doing like in. In even you personally.

Like it is when you get a.

Tangibly see a result in person, it shifts even how you approach everything that you create because it, it creates that awesome connection and it just like humanizes everything.

It does. And that's the thing, right. Like with everything going on now with, you know, technology and innovation, AI and I mean all this stuff, it's. It's amazing. We have to grasp it absolutely. In all of our industries. But I do think that, that, you know, it's that human. Yeah. The human interaction and really seeing emotions in people that is brought. It's just different in person for sure.

So I remember through the industry, like there a lot of people were like, they were worried for their jobs. They did not know where the world was going. They didn't know, you know, someone like you who had like specifically really niched into a career that all of a sudden we're just watching the world change so quickly. How were you feeling like emotionally and what were you like thinking you were gonna do?

Well, I must Admit I've been it. So I've been in journalism for 30 years, but I did take a bit of a hiatus and I went to the corporate side for five years. So right after Oxygen, I actually went to. I was the vice president, communications. Because I have that background in communications for a health and wellness company called. You might be familiar with Stop Pilates. It's a mind body for. Okay, if you're in Pilates. And I ran the, the, you know, obviously the global side of the marketing communications and going from publishing into the corporate world at that point, it was very strategic. I did that so that I would know. Basically at that point I was pitching media, but I already had connections because I had been on the. So I knew I could make some headway. Headway in promoting our brand. And we grew it and you know, launched all these 30,000 like licensed training centers worldwide of Pilates. But at that point I knew that magazines were starting to change anyway because the advertising kind of dynamic was shifting with where people were starting to put their money.

Were watching the dollars go down.

Yes. And they were starting to put their money into websites. Right. This is again kind of back in the day. So I wanted to go on to the corporate side to say, how do you know building these websites? What does this mean, the branding and all that? So to answer your question, I missed magazines. I just love publishing. So I went back to the publishing side. But at that point I was working at the largest communications basically company in Canada called Rogers Media, it still is today. And they have tons of magazines and they own sports teams. It's a huge, huge conglomerate. And what I remember happening was the publications to stay alive. They weren't just depending on advertising anymore. And now they were starting to do more corporate like these sponsorships, these partnerships. We did a big family, you know, Health Healthy Family Challenge. I remember because I was at a magazine called Today's Parent and it was basically doing, you know, these installations or these kind of experiential things across Canada. But also our biggest corporate sponsor was like Kellogg's. So again, it was starting to bring in these bigger kind of partnerships, these sponsors and all that. And that's how the print magazine started to rely on other dollars and that's how they survived. And so now bring it up to today. You've got, you know, events, you've got social media, you've got podcasts, you've got speakers bureau. And those are the type of things that these media companies, like Success Enterprises has because you need those to rely on each other to bring in different ways of income, like different streams of income and of revenue. And, you know, with our events and that and sport sponsorship and stuff. So that's how publishing has changed from a print perspective, from my perspective in, in the, in the path that I've been in. I've also worked at, like I said, city magazines or luxury magazines that rely on, you know, advertising or partnerships with different, like resorts and stuff like that. Those are different as well. Sometimes there is bartering, but. But not a success. We do a little bit differently.

And what were your emotions during that time? Were you ever nervous watching this? Were you like, like what made you understand to pivot? For a while, yeah. And then, you know, when did you know that you were ready to go back and take that risk again?

I knew I wanted to go into take that, like I said, the five year kind of stint in the corporate side because I wanted to gain experience there that was more for my own learning. I mean, I'm curious by nature being a journalist. Totally. I wanted to know what it was like to run a marketing communications division and grow it from the ground up, deal with pr. I actually ended up getting that company into the Guinness Book of World Records for the largest Pilates class in the world back then. Pretty cool. So there was some really cool experiences. And then I knew, I guess there's always been that bit of like, what's happening in the media world, right. Because, you know, it is one of those luxury kind of fields that, you know, it's nice to have media and we, it's, it's needed. But the world that I lived, I've never worked in hardcore news. So the world I've always lived in has been fitness, wellness, health, you know, and then into luxury and now into business. There, there are areas that are needed, but they're not like dire. Whereas people think hardcore news, well, we need to know what's going on in the world, you know, versus this interview with a celebrity, you know, it's different. So I've always had that bit of what if, you know, this particular side of the media industry was kind of to go downhill or, or kind of disappear. So to your point, I mean, I've written a book, I ended up kind of building my own brand and you know, I've always been, you know, I've always done freelance on the side in so many different ways. Building content though, has always been there. So I think just to answer that, my content creation for different companies I've worked for, financial companies, real estate companies, I've built so many different things from strategic perspective that content will never go. So even if the medium of print journalism or a print, sorry, magazine worst ever disappear, I feel like the content creation side of my world and what I'm kind of specializing in in that side will never go away.

So you're always looking at things as like, okay, here's what I can do. Where has it moved? Like what, what's the new modality? Okay.

And how I can contribute to that.

And you've always been willing to just kind of leap, pivot. Yeah.

I'm telling you, the pivot is huge, especially in the media world because it's so volatile.

Where do you think that willingness to pivot came from?

I think it's more like I've always been ambitious, I've always been a go getter in my own world. And it's interesting question. I've to pivot. I guess because of my upbringing and you know, lots of diversity there and adversity, but then also learning to survive and be ambitious at the same time. Being a female in like a predominantly male kind of dominated world, especially when I started in the bodybuilding world, I had to just be thrown in there and navigate it. I've worked for some really interesting entrepreneurs and characters and just kind of again had to prove myself and be, you know, accountable to not only my jobs at the time, but to myself. So the willing to willingness to pivot or the knowledge and navigation to, to pivot has come naturally through basically my journey in my career, I mean, I've always been a, you know, a just a go getter. And I think in order to keep yourself fresh and see, back then, they didn't call it personal branding. You had to evolve, right? You just had to keep up. And now it's personal branding. How do you evolve yourself? And I think I was already evolving myself in my roles and knowing that I needed to get experience here. So let me go do that, but then let me bring that corporate experience back to the publishing industry that I love so much, so I could bring those kind of connections. And then networking, it was like I was doing it and I didn't know what I was doing yet. But now when I look back, I was like, that was quite strategic. I didn't realize what I was doing. But we do this naturally now, right? So it's really interesting you say that, but yeah, pivoting is so important as the world changes, as we get older, as our careers change, as we add family to that, the, you know, the work life balance, you have to pivot. It's. It's just a. It's just a way of life.

It sounds like you've always been just a survivor and someone who can create, you know, things out of nothing. What is an experience from? Maybe it's usually the ages between 8 and 13 that kind of really made you get that trait. Do you think?

Yeah, I think. What's funny, people. People always get surprised at this because I'm quite extroverted, but certainly not afraid to get out there and speak. But I used to be quite introverted. And I remember in eighth grade, funny enough, my, my parents at the time, so I was about 12, 13.

Yeah.

Credited this one particular, my teacher in, in. In eighth grade. In eighth grade, Mr. Vaca, his name was, and he brought me out of my shell and it was in the classrooms, like he knew that I had a mind and I was a writer. See, by trade I've been a writer. Not so much a speaker, if you will. Like, I was always a writer. I could really express myself. I love to write the essays. I would write you a novel and grade eight kind of thing. He knew that. So what he would do is call on me to say, read a chapter from what you just wrote, Carrie, because I know it's going to be insightful for the rest of the class. So he would call on me to read in front of the class what I wrote. And then people would be like, wow. But I wasn't naturally the person to just get up and speak to That I would be able to read it, but then eventually I would. It was brought out of my shell. And I remember him giving me the English award in grade eight. And he said it wasn't just for the written words. Carrie also had this natural talent for expressing it in other ways. And I was like, really? I never thought that. And my parents always, always kind of credited him for bringing me out of my shell that way, because it just went from there. So I think at that time of my life, in that age range, it was this particular teacher. And then from there I was like, yeah, just kind of taking those risks, you know. I was also a pro. I was an Irish dancer. I was a competitive Irish dancer.

That's amazing.

For 15 years it was very competitive of like any sport. And traveled the world. Went to the world three times in Ireland. My dad's from Dublin, so it was a big part of our lives. And I went on to do a professional show called Need Fire for three months in the Royal Alexander Theater in Toronto. And, you know, a lot of my friends who I competed against went on to do Riverdance and Lord of the Day, you know, all these big shows. So I think the. The knack for taking risks, putting yourself out there on stage started young, and it's just kind of evolved and gravitated to how it is today. And I've always loved that. And I think at the end of the day, expressing yourself not only in the written word, which I is so close to my heart, but in any form of medium, really is so important these days because then you get to reach more people, because everyone learns differently. Everyone gravitates to different kind of communications. And I think at the end of the day, communication is key.

What do you think all of those classes in dancing and discipline taught you?

To take risks, to put yourself out there, to not be afraid to fail. Because of course, you know, like in any sport really, or any kind of field that you. You kind of compete in, there are going to be setbacks, there are going to be obstacles. You know, whether it be, you know, physical injury or, you know, emotional letdown or, you know, you go through different teachers or instructors that are tough on you or whatever, whatever it is. I think I learned to deal with those obstacles and overcome them because I had to. I was in an Irish dancing back then was, it is today too, very, very strong, strict. We had teachers that were extremely strict. And, you know, you just. You just had to kind of keep up or you were out. And I knew friends that quit because they couldn't kind of take the heat, but I stuck it out, and then I went on to teach as well. And I think that, you know, it's just that discipline in me that was instilled in me back then, but also from my parents. My parents, you know, they. They pushed me to go to university. They pushed me to, you know, make my own money, not depend on a man. Like, growing up, like I was literally called, talk these things, and they stuck with me. So I think who I am today is a huge reflection of my. My growing up and my parents and what I learned. But it's also a reflection of my own resilience and how I got through obstacles and how I learned from them and then learned to kind of go on to the next part of my journey on my own.

Did you have a family belief that you can remember, like your parents saying or something that you believed, your community believed whatever, that you had to break through in order to be in the position that you're in now?

I think my parents really instilled in me or their. Their belief was that, you know what, Even if you fail, it was worth trying. Right. And I know that sounds maybe a little cliche, but I do remember that. I remember going for the big jobs, you know, in. In journalism, and I didn't get some of them. I wasn't experienced enough. I just wasn't. Or there was just someone better for the job. But I didn't give up. And I would go a different route, or I would try a different publication, or I would make new connections, or I would just. Just instead of getting a job because I didn't get it at the publication, I would say, okay, well, can I freelance for you? And they were like, yeah, we can have you freelance. Right? And then you make those connections and see, those are the type of things I think I learned to be resilient young because my parents told me that even if you made a mistake, what's the worst they could say is no. And if they said no, fine, another door will open. And I really kept that in the back of my mind the whole time.

I know that you had shared that in your 30s you had a heart attack. Tell me about where you were at that point in your life and how that changed the trajectory of. Of what you were doing.

I talk about this, too, a lot. So I had a heart attack at age 39. Wow. I had two kids, two young kids at the time.

You totally healthy, like, totally unexpected at all?

Yeah, so I found out. So it's kind of a long story. I wrote a book about it afterwards, but it's. It's really amazing. I talk a lot about this, especially to women, about the pressure we put on ourselves. So going back to your previous question about where to like this resilience and, you know, overcoming obstacles and setbacks, and it's really great to be able to push through that. It's actually necessary in our lives. But what happens is you also have to learn to slow down. And I'm by nature. I'm sure you are too, Laurie. A competitor. I want to get to the next level. I want to push myself and really achieve certain things. That's what keeps me going totally. I'm the type of person that changes my hair every once. Like, I just can't keep the same hairstyle because I want to see something new. I get bored. So when I was in my late 30s, I was at the top of my media game in Toronto. I was also at that time, not only running magazines, I was actually on TV a lot. I used to do a lot of morning shows and they would ask me about, you know, trends and different kind of fields, and I would. I would do a lot of that, which I loved. And I was also commuting into Toronto from the suburbs as a lot of people commute into the cities two hours each way every day. My. Yet that was traffic. I mean, look at LA now. But I left all that because of all these reasons. But I was taking. Taking a train, taking a subway, you know how it is. But I wasn't really focusing on me. I thought I was. I was busy. I was getting everything done at home, getting everything. I was, you know, the wife, I was the mom. I was running home to, you know, hockey practice and I was doing my job and I was on TV and I was doing all this stuff. It was a lot. And you have two kids as well, trying to be also, you know, you know, the perfect wife, the perfect friend, the perfect daughter. And I've always been a people pleaser. I just always, by nature have been. So all of that, I didn't realize how much it was catching up on me. So what happened was one night I was putting my kids to bed, and again, we lived in this farmhouse, like a ranch house out in the country. And I got this huge, huge, basically a big, I don't know, like a pain, if you will, on my shoulder in the middle of, like, really. I was putting the kids to bed. I'm like, that is so crazy. And we used to live in this beautiful, like this little farmhouse and I Thought, is there, like, a ghost or something? Like, what hit me? It was really weird.

Yeah.

Literally out of the blue. And I'm like, that is so crazy. So I went downstairs. I'm like, there's something going on. And then it did trickle down my arm into my back. And all kind of the typical signs you think of for a heart attack or a stroke.

Like, pain all throughout back.

And it was like this. It was almost like it. It felt like I wasn't falling, but it felt like I had fallen. You got up, you go, oh, that's weird. Like, it's now. Chuckling. I wasn't. It was standing body. And. But what was really unique about it was that it was my right side. It wasn't my left. And you always hear, well, it's the left side that, you know, if you feel something in your left arm, I. And I thought, well, then it can't be anything to do with my heart. And I didn't think it was. Anyway, I wasn't overweight. I didn't smoke, don't drink. You know, Like, I didn't have immediate issues in my immediate family. I thought, this. There's no way. Yeah, I thought, I'm just stressed. I'm under a lot of pressure at work. I'm under a lot of stress. Us. I had been having more migraines than normal, a little bit of aches and pains more than normal. Trouble sleeping, some of those things. But as women, we chalk that up to stress, and we think, oh, we'll get through it. I just need a good night's sleep. Totally. I just need more sleep. We always do that. We make excuses. And anyway, long story short, my husband at the time said, like, let's call an ambulance. Like, you're not looking good. I literally just wanted to lay down on the floor in the kitchen and go to sleep. Sleep. Like, that exhaustion came over me, and that's really weird. Like, it just shut me down. The biggest problem, like, the thing was, I said, no. I said, no, no, no, no, no. I'm gonna be fine. Let me just go to bed. I'm gonna sleep it off.

Especially as a people pleaser. You're like, I want to disrupt anything.

Meetings in the morning. I'm like, no, no, no. Exactly. It was later at night. I didn't want an ambulance come all the way up to the country. I just didn't think it was that serious. I thought I could get through it. So the next day, I did go to work. I still had this pain. This is the crazy part. I Had this pain. I knew something was wrong with my body, got to work. I had a panic attack that day. Ended up going home. Like it all happened from there. I ended up end up having a cardiac surgery. I ended up finding out that I also had a heart condition from birth that I didn't know about. And it was getting worse as I got older. The biggest caveat was I was like, I just don't understand because I have never had like until then shortness of breath and all this. It was, it was really gaining. My cardiologist said it was also the stress, it was stress coming on me and the mind body connection. That's what it does. This mind body connection of the stress I was putting on myself was bringing out the worst in my body and it was impacting my heart and my breathing and all this. So again, there was a lot more factors to it, of course, but it just something that just literally knocked me off my feet and really changed the trajectory of my life.

What is a message for women? Listening.

Yeah.

That you want to give them.

It definitely has to be, make yourself a priority. It has to be. It may not be 24 hours a day you do, but you have to once in a while you have to. And I think that's something I still have to remind myself all the time. I mean I'm a go getter. I'll go, I'll jump on a plane, I'll do what I have to do, especially when it comes to my kids. My children now are 15 and 22 boys and very active in sports and all that. And I'll go, you need me, I'll go anytime. And I do think that you know the, you have to art master the art of saying no. You have to learn to listen to your body. So these are a few tips. Listen to your body, learn to say no. Learn to basically take time for yourself and make yourself a priority. And if it means like you have to let go of some things, whether that be work or whether that be even people in your life, then do it. Those things.

I would say it's life or death actually.

It is definitely.

I think stories like yours are so important to hear because we don't, we don't think that being busy or stressed or having this low level anxiety that we literally so many of us live with every single day that that's going to be a thing. And my husband recently just had a stroke over just stress and so many. I'm at that age or place which you were in your 30s. Like this truly does happen. To people. And nobody hears about, about, nobody really hears about these stories, but they're, they're frequent, I'm sure. Now that you've had this story, have you heard of like.

Absolutely, yeah, exactly. Experience. And that's the whole thing. So there. I mean, gosh, I could do a whole podcast on self care and about my heart health because I'm an advocate now. Yes, in particular for women, but for everyone. And I'll tell you what, the whole thing I learned about very quickly was that the signs and symptoms of strokes or heart attacks for men and women are very different. They can come across in a woman as indigestion, as just like, you know, almost like food poisoning can be a sign of a heart attack. Like. And again, I'm not trying to scare people. I really am not. But what I learned then, though, that was listening to my own body and going to the doctor when I felt like, ah, I don't need to. You probably should go. And if they say, oh, it's nothing, then maybe, you know, if you still feel inside, like it's that intuitive kind of feeling that you need to talk to someone else, get a second opinion. So from there I did. I started sharing my story. I started sharing it not only in magazines and, you know, people were asking me about my story back then because on the surface I did come across as I had it all together and I didn't have any. Like, I, again, I wasn't hugely obese. I wasn't like, I didn't feel like I was on a bad track for this to happen. I certainly wasn't a smoker. So stress management became a huge topic of, of conversation. And I did learn that there was a lot more people around my age, in their 30s and even younger that had had these similar experiences. And I think now that's why I get out and talk about this a lot. I talk, you know, even in the corporate wellness kind of setting because people in business, you do not realize the stress you're putting on your body. And if we can incorporate any of these kind of ticks and tips and tricks or methods or techniques within the corporate world as well and with, with entrepreneurs and obviously business to take that time for yourself, then I think we'll all be better off and even from a productivity kind of side as well.

So when you say take that time just for people to really tangibly understand what, what kind of things were you doing? Like, for someone who's really wired and wound tight, it can sound not fun to slow down, like to take that Self care time. That can actually feel really stressful at first. Yeah. So how did that transition look like for you? Like, how do we know we're now doing enough self care?

Yeah. And self care is obviously very different for every person. Right. And I'm like you, Lori. Like, I mean, you're right. Like if you say, I'm not gonna touch an email today, you know, I.

Mean, that could, that's more stressful. Yeah.

It could give you more anxiety. Right. And then you know why? Because it's not only like, you're probably a people pleaser, like I am. You probably think, well, if I'm not getting back to them, they're going to think I'm ignoring them. And then, then it trickle effects. But then also the added stress can be that, oh, shoot, if I don't touch an email today to give myself time off, then tomorrow I'm gonna have double the amount of work. So what's the point in that? Like, that's kind of how our mind work, especially for entrepreneurs and business people. So I mean, again, self care is completely different for everyone. I mean, some people like to work out, some people like to, you know, meditate, some people like to take a vacation. Whatever you feel works best for you. One of the things I love to do is journal. I love to write down because I'm a writer. I mean, again, that's just the way I am. Some people like to talk into their phone and just record themselves. But the other thing that I was going to say is I think that one of those things is give yourself some credit. If you can take a few moments a day and instead of going through your to do list and I'm bad, I'm a to do list person. All the to do lists are, are reminders of things you haven't done yet, which can also be anxiety filled, which can also be extremely stressful because you have this to do list that you're like, oh, gosh, gosh, right. You start the day off going, oh my gosh. You think you're organized and you might be, but it's all things you haven't done. What I like to do is at the end of the day, and I hope this is a tip that maybe your listeners and readers or your viewers will take away, do a list at the end of the day of all the things you have accomplished in that day or in that week and then go through them and go, yeah, I did, I did this great podcast with Lori Harder and I got that done after traffic in la. We got it Done. Yes. And give yourself some credit it. And then give yourself some, you know, credit also of the people in your life. So do. It's almost like a reverse to do list, right. Where you can actually credit yourselves for the. Yourself for the things you've done. That to me is giving myself self care because I'm really, again, not only the accountability side of it, which makes you feel good, but it's also like, wow, I had, I did get all this done. So. And so those are kind of things that I do in my own world. Of course, you know, you can, you know, the eating. Right, the exercise. Of course. I mean that, that is something we've all been ingrained in growing up. That you should do and you should always improve that side of your life. But also self care for me is spending time with quality people in my life. My friends, my family, my boys. My boys right now are my priority. Work and my boys. I'm a single mom and it is just so important to me to have that relationship. So self care to me is also keeping that. Those relationships open with those, those in your life that are very important to you.

I know you had mentioned that you were recently divorced. How are you doing with that right now? Was that expected? Unexpected?

It was something that, to be honest, is fairly new, but it is something that's been coming for a little while. It was just a natural evolution of, I think, where our, our relationship would go. And I think that we're probably better off friends and I think that's a good thing. We have a great relationship for the boy's sake. And, you know, it is difficult. 22 years of marriage, two boys later, all four of us moving to the US from Canada.

Wow.

You know, like we're, we're green card holders. And there was a whole process there that was a big thing that we had to do as a family. We've been through a lot of ups and downs and a lot of different heartache and a lot of different things. But I think now me moving into this next chapter of my life, I'm 51 and a lot of really fun things on the horizon. And just knowing that this is the beginning of my next stage, my second act, if you will. I'm extremely excited. So what I'll do is I will take those times of, you know, remembering the amazing times in my marriage and just taking that and kind of putting it in my heart and keeping it there and using that as fuel to move forward and to be a really good person and to hopefully have wonderful people in My life.

What would you say to a woman right now who is staying in a relationship that she knows is. Is over essentially, but is too scared at the age of 40s or 50s to go?

It is extremely difficult. I think that I. I probably could say that I was probably in my marriage for a little bit longer than I should have stayed too. And I think that maybe even he would say the same. I'm not. There's no blame here. I think that it's extremely difficult because you get into patterns. You get into. Especially when you have children too, and you've built this life together, you get into patterns, you get into habits of just, you know, that's just what. That's just what you know. And you feel comfortable. And being content and comfortable is great for some people. It's not for me. I needed to take that next step. However, it's for those who are staying in a relationship that maybe they're unhappy in or that really isn't healthy for you. My own advice would be please listen to your inner. To your intuition and your inner gut. Follow your heart, and if you. It. If you know deep down that you need to leave, please leave. I think that again, I'm no expert, but I do feel like the longer you stay in that relationship or in that household or whatever that is the situation, I think that it can be more detrimental longer term. And again, I can only speak from my own experience, but I've met a lot of women who have been in relationships that they should have left for whatever reason. The one piece of advice I would definitely give, though is make sure you have some form of financial security before you take that leap. Although, unless I. It's dire and you just have to get out, that's fine. But I do think that planning your time and planning what you're going to do next a little bit and have that little bit of safety in that is probably important. If you do not have that and if you aren't the breadwinner, if you don't have an income or something, then definitely just go to resources that will help you get through those or get you to the next stage. I think that's the important thing.

What are you most excited about right now?

Yeah, I am excited about this year. I mean, goodness, it's. It's Women's History Month. It's March already. I can't believe the first couple of months have gone by. I am so excited about some new ventures I'm doing right now. There's something I've just. Actually, we just announced On Friday, I'm actually a member. I've been asked to join the member of the G100. I don't know if you're familiar with it, the G100 is a global women's networking business community. Community. I know and it's really amazing. It's a hundred women in a hundred countries and we are all connected. We go down zooms together. It's incredible. People from you know, India, Dubai, the uk, all over. And these are high achieving women who want to help and do good in the world. And I'm extremely honored to have been asked and nominated by a fellow friend and colleague of mine to be the regional director of the mountain region in the US and under the well being, holistic well being wing, which is what I'm part of. So now you'll start probably seeing more of that, of me promoting that out there in the world. But it is a community of women that like I said, all cultures, all diversities and all businesses and who have are so incredible. From doctors to lawyers all over the world and executives, dignitaries who really want to just help and do really good for women in adversity and all of these different topics from the self care side to heart health to you know, holistic well being relationships, marriage, children, all the business, business navigating that is going to be at the forefront of my philanthropy efforts now on a personal level.

Yeah.

And that's what I'm really excited about. And I'm also really excited on my personal side to do more traveling and to get my kids sometimes out of their sports because they're very serious about their sports and get them some time and let's do some traveling together as well.

Amazing. I love that. Well, this was so much fun. I'm so grateful for you coming on. Where can we worship? We follow along with you.

Well, you can obviously connect with me on social media at Carrie Lee Brown. My, my website is Carrie Lee Brown dot com. You can kind of find me there. I'm available for speaking and for any podcast, all this fun stuff that I love to do and get my message out. And then if you're interested in pitching the magazine you can reach out to me@editoruccess.com and that's probably the best way to go there. Otherwise I'll connect with you on social media.

Well, we're so grateful for you and for sharing your story and just everything that you're up to and such a, a amazing, just interesting career. I loved learning about you. So you guys make sure you go follow Carrie Lee and check it out. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.