How to Find Your Voice When Your World Falls Apart with Jaclyn Shaw

When you talk about being employed by God, you say, "God signs my 7-figure checks." Yes.

When you decide that you're on a walk with God, willing to be the truth of who you are, so unapologetic, God's gonna show up in deliverance. The desires that you have placed within you, they're there for a reason. You also gotta be willing to show up for yourself.

That word willing has really changed my life because sometimes we think we have to know the path, and we have to start the action immediately. And a lot of times the willingness starts opening doors. Jacqueline, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy that you're here and we get to sit in person and do this.

Yes.

Especially after writing a book. It's your first book?

It's my first book. It's my first book. Yeah. And I've just finished writing my second book, actually. Oh my gosh. So I've been— once the writing started, it just didn't stop.

Okay, so you're a writer.

Didn't think I was, but I definitely am now. Now I definitely am.

Even like— so I, I have your book here, which is an incredible book. Spiritual Smackdown: From Victim to Goddess, which I love. When God Spoke, Everything Changed. So I'm— so we're gonna, we're gonna dive into all of that. Um, but this is a thick book actually. So you are truly a writer. If this was your first book, and did you struggle with getting all these words out, or did it kind of flow?

Well, it took me— I always say it took me 8 years and 3 weeks to write this book. Yeah. Because it took me 8 years to decide I was a writer. Mm-hmm. And then as soon as I decided I was a writer, it just like, it just came and it just started writing itself. And I knew, like, I literally knew the moment that I was going to write the book, and it was when my daughter was 3 weeks old. But it did take me— I mean, she's, she's 9 and a half now, so it took me quite a while to actually decide I was going to write it.

Yeah. And how long is the second book going to take, do you think?

It was fast. It's, it's— we're already in the editing stages of it. It was fast as well.

Well, how, how long to get to where you are now, the editing stage, which is nearing the end?

Yeah, 2 months.

So everybody listening, I just want you to know, you might as well just tear the Band-Aid off because you could do it fast if you, if you wanted. I totally get it. When I wrote my book, I wrote an entire book before it that took me like 3 years. And then when I finally got a publisher to publish that book, and went back and read the book that took me 3 years and I was like, this is shit. And threw that book away and started over with the publisher and wrote that book pretty fast. 8 months. Yeah. Yeah.

It's, I mean, I feel like just once I opened up to like owning, like this is what I wanna do. And I've been, you know, speaking and podcasting and leading for so many years, but it was this writing piece. It was like really putting pen to paper that I actually had resistance in holding a pen and I handwrite everything first. So I was like, I had so much resistance to putting the pen in my hand. And then once I did, mm-hmm, it's like I don't ever wanna stop.

What do you think? We're gonna get into this story cuz it's so good, but for anybody listening, I think a lot of people wanna write a book or they wanna start a podcast. What do you think was the major resistance? What was the main resistance that now looking back you're like, wow, if I could go back and help coach myself around that, what would it look like?

Honestly, I feel like I told myself the story of I don't know how for so long. And even with starting my podcast, well, this is kind of cool because you will probably not even remember this, but I had a moment where I was, I was in Nosara where you and I first met.

Yeah. And Costa Rica.

Costa Rica. And you and I first met and it was a few months after I was in a sound bath journey and I had this idea to start a podcast and I reached out to you. You're the only person I knew at the time that had a podcast and you were like, just do it. And it took me 3 years to do that as well. And I was like, it's gotta be more complicated. I can't just put a mic in front of my mouth and speak. And then the first time I recorded a podcast, it was the same thing. I was like, let me do this more. Like, all you really have to do is put a microphone in front of your mouth and start speaking.

Mm. Was it, was it like you were blocked with the content or?

It didn't even feel like blocked with the content because the book, I knew exactly what the book was going to be. It was really. Like I probably was like in the, the surface was, I don't know how to do it, but behind it was probably who's gonna listen? Mm-hmm. Who's gonna listen? Who's gonna read it? Is there anything to say here that hasn't already been said? Mm-hmm. And then I found out very quickly that I say it in a different way. Yeah.

And so everyone says it in a different way.

Exactly. We all do. And so no matter where you're at, if you wanna start the podcast or the YouTube or write the book, The words that come through you are going to be different than anyone else.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So I want to talk about your book because there's— I mean, you gifted me the book and I was like, okay, I'm going to read it. I'm going to read it because trust me, I have the best intentions of reading books. I really do. I want to read them all. But I have a podcast where everyone comes on and sends me a book and I'm like, I'm going to read it, I promise. But one day I sat down and I knew that I was going to have you on. And I was like, okay, I'm going to start reading it. And, you know, I'll usually skim through and I get the gist of it and I can really learn about somebody. But I ended up finding myself on page like 70 or 80 and I was like, in one sitting. Yeah, does not happen for me. Yeah. And so I think I got to learn so much about you immediately and just the story that you've gone through. And I think it's so vital for women to hear because a lot of what you've gone through is a lot of people's worst nightmares. And I think there's a lot of power when you actually get through to the other side. I don't think there's a lot of power. I think that when we get to face those things or go through them, not by choice, that you get to become someone completely different. So the woman sitting in front of me is very different even than the woman that I got to meet so many years ago in Costa Rica at our friend's retreat. So I wanna talk about the story that's in the book. Mm-hmm. And kind of when you knew you had to write this story.

Yeah. So the story of the book is when I was pregnant with my daughter. Mm-hmm. And when I was 3 months pregnant with her, I found out that my husband was having an affair and he moved out and lived with another woman for the entire duration of my pregnancy. And when she was 3 weeks old, I was sitting in the park with her one day and I completely became a different person in that span of time. Like, completely different person. That's when I, I mean, I call it my spiritual smackdown. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's when I had my spiritual awakening. It's when I found the connection to the God within me, like really found my power, my voice, my truth. I was sitting in the park with her one day, like she was 3 weeks old, and it was just like, this story, your experience, your growth, your transformation, like other women need to hear this. Mm-hmm. And so I knew in that moment I was gonna write the book. Now it took me a long time to stand in that, but I knew in that moment it was so clear to me that it wasn't just an experience for me. And this is so much of what I believe in now. It's like when we're willing to come together as human beings, but especially as women, and we're willing to share the truth about our lives and who we are and what we've gone through in this world. I mean, I call it our holy work. It's our holy work. It's healing, not just for ourselves, but for others and for the collective as well.

Mm-hmm. Tell me, let's dig into what a spiritual smackdown is for you. Like why those words, what is, what significance does that have? But let's really dig into what it is and what role that plays in life.

I feel like spirit, God had been knocking on my door for so long and I ignored, you know, I, I like had dabbled in spirituality a bit.

And what do you mean by knocking? What does that feel like?

Like calling on me, like calling on me to, like, explore who I truly am, like who we all are at our— at the root of who we are, like in our divine nature. And I kept feeling like, that's, that's silly. That's this, that's that.

I was like, you'd have ideas.

I would have ideas about what you wanted to do or be. I had ideas about what I wanted to do, what I wanted to be. I had ideas. I mean, I grew up raised Catholic, so I had ideas about God. And then I left the church when I was 12. And so I had ideas about You know, I had always kind of dabbled in spirituality. I kind of dabbled in, well, first I believe in God, then I don't believe in God, then I believe in spirit, then I believe in angels, and then I use the word universe all the time. And it was like, but always right there, just like, like literally knocking, like, come explore. There's more depth here. There's more for you to— other ways to find yourself.

Yeah.

And I would, I would go, I would like take two steps in and then I'd be like, Okay, that's enough. That's starting to feel uncomfortable. That's starting to feel a bit out there. That's starting to feel like, oh, people knew that I had these thoughts. They would judge me. They would think this. They would think I've— whatever story I would tell myself. And then I feel like the smackdown part is where God was like, no, like, there's, there's no more. There's no more like toe dipping. There's no more going in and out like You have to awaken to what's true within you. Mm.

Tell me what you believed in Christianity. What made, what made you going into kind of figuring out why it sounds like why this smackdown happened for you. What was it in Christianity that kept you away from like really digging into that calling in your life?

I mean, what the way that I had been raised was very much like God is punishing, God judges, God is this power outside of you that has power over you.

Yeah.

And that felt distant to me. It just felt foreign. It didn't feel like true. And through my spiritual smackdown, what really started to come through for me and what really felt like truth was that like, God's within us. Like God, God's from within me. I have choice here. I'm also a powerful being. And so it stopped feeling like I needed to give my power away to God in order to believe in God, that I got to walk with God, create with God, lead with God. Hmm.

So you're in a marriage, you're in a happy marriage. How long were you guys married at this point? When you—

yeah, yeah, 4 years. Okay.

So you had been married 4 years. You weren't in a place of suspecting, or did you have intuition around it?

I was like extremely blindsided. I thought we were very happily married. Very happily married. We had an almost 2-year-old son and like, he just became like the love of our life. And we were very much like the 3 of us and moved as a unit. And I mean, life was— I mean, if you checked it all off on paper, like life was perfect. I had 2 miscarriages after my first child. And so then pregnant with my daughter, I was 3 months pregnant with her. Mm-hmm. Again, felt to me like, like, this is it. This is everything you've been wanting, everything you've been asking for. And then like completely blindsided.

So were you having in that, in that timeframe when everything was perfect, you were kind of saying that you were feeling called to things. Were you getting nudges of like, was that when you were thinking, oh, I would love to write. Oh, I would love to podcast. Oh, I'd love to speak to women. Like, what were you, what messages were you feeling called to at the time and how were you ignoring them?

Yeah. Those pieces came later, like the podcast and the book, because that really did get sparked for me from this experience.

Yeah.

But at the time it just felt like I kept being called into more and it didn't really have a face. It didn't have a name. That's why it felt so hard for me to grasp because it really did feel vague. It felt elusive. It felt like this, this bubbling up inside me. I started attracting women into my life many of who you and I, like, connected through and met with that became like, just like instant soul connections. And they were having conversations that I was like, so curious about. I was like, so peeked in. And then they would say something. I'm like, oh, that's a little like, that's a bit too much. That's too uncomfortable. And so I kept doing this like dance because I was meeting these women who I felt were like visionaries and had ideas and conversations that sparked something within me. But in my regular life, in what I had known, in the conversations I was having and what I had been living, again, it just felt so far off from what I knew.

Okay, so you're getting these nudges, you're in what you believe is a happy marriage, then you're completely blindsided.

Yeah. And when I'm getting these nudges, like, as an example, like, I went to a vision board party and put a vision board in my closet because I was like, people will think that I'm like, like weird.

I love this. Literally like closet spiritual. Okay.

Yeah, would like read a book but like hide the book under my mattress so people didn't know what I was reading.

Yeah. Okay, so you were definitely curi— like there was more.

I was curious, there was more, but it was like very like let, let it be in the closet. And so sometimes I'd— that's what I mean, sometimes I— spirit would knock and I'd open it, but then mostly I'd be like, and no.

Did it feel dangerous because you were afraid of what you had to be, or because of like religious repercussion? Like was there just a lot of things around it?

It wasn't really religious. Okay. Repercussion. It was, I mean, probably in hindsight, like, who am I? Can I stand in that? Like, I don't know, who am I to like think that, believe that?

Yeah. So you just kind of kept shoving it under your, your mattress.

Yeah. Yeah.

Literally. Yeah. Literally.

Under the mattress, in the closet. Like, that's a, that's a pretty idea. That's a nice thought, but that's not reality is mostly what it was.

Okay. So you're blindsided by what happens in your marriage and was it with someone you knew?

No.

No. Okay. But you have this thing happen, and I think a lot of people listening can understand, like, that is the— I, I think that's every woman who's married, one of their worst fears. And it's almost like we can't fathom how we feel, what would happen, and what on earth your life is gonna be after that. So can you take me back to that moment and just explain how on earth you even dealt with that news?

Well, it was wild because I had this intuition and it really felt like it came out of nowhere for me. And there was this intuition, there was this moment, there was this feeling. And I asked my husband and it was like straight up denial. And I was like, no, there's something off here. And so in the beginning, I actually like needed to be right because I felt this intuition. I was like, I don't want my intuition to be wrong. Even though I didn't want that to be the truth, it was also more important to me that like what I felt, that I stayed true to that because there was a lot of questioning of like, that's the craziest thought you've ever had. Like, just put it down. Like, absolutely not. Yeah. But it was this like, no, like, don't betray yourself. I mean, I have so many stories in the past of times I've betrayed myself, times that I saw the red flag and didn't listen. So it did feel like a calling of like, I actually kind of need this to be true once I felt it. And then from there, I mean, yeah, it's, it's when you're married, it's like the worst nightmare. It's like, Nobody wants to have that experience in their marriage. And I thought I knew, I thought I definitely knew if that ever happened in my marriage, what my response would be. And it would be like, goodbye, see you later. Like, let me help you pack your bags. And like, done. Like, done, done, done with a capital D. And then it's not what I felt at all. And that's the part that like really shook me. It's like, why don't I feel that it's done? And that was just the feeling that came through. The words were literally like, your story's not over yet. And while he was very much like, yes, it is. And he fully like, it wasn't a mistake. It wasn't like he owned it. And that was what he wanted and chose in a new life. And, you know, moved in with this woman within a couple days. So when did you start finding out? I found out the day it started. So it hadn't been going on, like I found out the moment that it started. That's how like quick and on point my intuition was.

Wow. And so at that point when that all moved very quickly, what were you left with and what happened next?

I mean, I was left with an almost 2-year-old son, with my daughter growing inside of me and feeling completely lost, feeling heartbroken. Mm-hmm. Feeling unsure of what laid ahead, feeling scared. I had a lot of fear for my daughter around feeling abandoned before, you know, she even came to this world. There was a lot of health complications with her. I had my first two miscarriages were both in the second trimester. So the fact that I was just entering the second trimester with her, there was a lot of fear like that she wasn't going to also come. So there's fear. And there was a lot of— at the same time, there was a lot of, there was a lot of this questioning. There was a lot of fear. There was a lot of unknown. And there was just this like whisper inside of me that kept calling me to go deeper in myself, was like, this is for you. Like, pay attention here. Like, go on the spiritual deep dive that you've been wanting to go on. Like, it very much felt right from the very beginning. That I could use this as an opportunity to sit in victimhood or to rise as the goddess.

So you could see the two choices.

Felt like I saw the path laid out before me, like, so clearly. What am I going to choose? And in each moment, it felt like a choice. Are you going to again slip into victimhood? Are you going to harness your power here? Are you going to see how what you choose determines what comes next? Hmm. Or are you going to just sit here and feel like powerless in the experience.

For someone who might be going through that right now, do you think that they're going to be able to do what you did, or how are they going to— can you share with them some ways that even when they're in that deep dark— because I know there is a lot that has to process through with that.

Yeah.

Is there perspectives that you can give them?

We always have a choice. You always have a choice of how you navigate any experience in your life. You always have a choice in the lens that you're you willing to look at it through? And so do you look at it through the lens of being a victim? Can you look at it through the lens of expansion, the lens of truth? Can you see that there is always something that's going to serve you within each and every experience? And that's not to bypass of like, this is happening for you, because no one wants to hear that when they're in that experience. Like, that is not what you want to hear. But when you can honestly look and say, okay, where am I being called right now. And so for me, there was, I mean, a lot of having to drop away a lot of layers and a lot of stories. My desire to always be right, like to want vindication, to step into self-righteousness, to want to punish. And what I said before about God, like I didn't believe in the God who would punish, but yet here I was like wanting to punish, wanting to—

you wanted to make him wrong and make him feel bad and make him see what he did.

And guilt and shame and all of it. Like there was, there was a lot of my knowing, like I had choice. And then there was a lot, and I share this in the book, like there was a lot of times where I did fall into victimhood, where I did choose self-righteousness, where I chose vindication over my personal peace. And so this was one of the biggest things for me, especially early on. I started to look at it and decide, what do I want to experience right now? If I want to experience peace, And for me it was like really important with all the complications going on with my daughter. It's like, if I don't choose peace, like what's gonna happen here? I lost 10 pounds in 10 days when I found out, like not healthy when you're 3 months pregnant. It's like, I've gotta find a way to figure this out to like choose my inner peace or else I truly felt like she would leave. Wow. And I had complications that they were like, if you make it to the third trimester, like that's a miracle. So I was like, I say, I felt like God no-optioned me. He's like, you've got to go here. You've got to be willing to go deep here. And that shifted everything when I was like, okay, I can choose my peace here. And so the times where I wanted to respond in self-righteousness, the times I wanted to react, I would ask myself, what does this bring forward for me? Does this create my peace or does this create chaos? Does this create peace? Or does this put me in that seat of victimhood where I feel powerless? And like I said, it was definitely not a straight pathway in this. There's many, many, many times where I didn't choose peace. But in the times that I did, it was like so much just opened up. So much opened up for me. So much opened up within my communication between me and my husband. And it very quickly became apparent to me that what I choose determines what comes next. Mm-hmm.

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Yep.

So what were some of the ways that you now use moving forward or that you share with people on processing in a really intense period like that?

I mean, one of the biggest things is I had to shut out the, like, outside noise. Everyone had an opinion about my life and about what I should do and what I should choose and what that looked like. And I mean, I had an opinion about what I thought I should choose, and it wasn't what I— I wasn't choosing what I thought I would always choose. Our mind, well, it's powerful and beautiful for so many reasons. Our mind's going to try to protect us. Your mind's going to say you should choose that, you need to do this. And that I found is actually where I would feel the most powerless. When I go up to my mind and I try to analyze and I try to figure it out and I try to weigh the pros and cons and I tried to make it make sense. And the more I was willing for it not to make sense, the more I was willing to be in the unknown and come back to self again and again and again and sit in silence, like sit in silence, connect with God, be in meditation so I could hear my own voice. Because even when I was alone, not hearing advice from other people, but I was in my mind, I wasn't hearing my own voice. I wasn't hearing my truth. I was hearing the parts of me that were scared, the parts that were in fear, the parts that wanted to control the outcome, the parts that— I mean, there were so many times I was like, if I just did this, I can manipulate this, I could shift this, I could do that. And I was like, stop. Like, stop. That's not you following the truest pathway. That's not you letting this actually serve you. That's you choosing power and control in ways that just— it kept creating this cycle that was— I just got so sick and tired of it, to be honest.

So whenever you were feeling that way, you knew it was time to get quiet, which is the hardest thing on earth, by the way. Yeah, like, I've been knowing I need to do that more frequently, and I'm— it's like the thing you know you need the most, you resist the most.

I mean, I had tried to meditate for 2 years before this and I was like, well, I'm, I'm just not a meditator.

Yeah.

Because like my, my mind can't, I was like, I can't sit still. I can't meditate. I can't slow. And then I started with 3 minutes. There was honestly a song that I played that was 3 minutes long and I was like, okay, just 3 minutes. Like close your eyes, breathe, like tune in for 3 minutes. Can you shut off your mind? Yeah. For 3 minutes. And within those 3 minutes I'd still have thoughts, but it wasn't controlled thoughts. It wasn't me trying to, again, like, move things, manipulate things, shift things. It was more of that surrender. And then 3 minutes, I was like, oh, what if I listen to it twice? And I doubled to 6 minutes. Like, it wasn't— it definitely wasn't just like, and I'm naturally surrendered and meditating and all feels well.

Like you weren't getting answers right away. No, you were literally just trying to sit.

I was. I mean, mostly it was in the middle of the night at like 4 a.m. when I'd be like wanting to scroll Instagram, when I'd want to see where he is, what he's choosing, what he's doing. And again, because I was like also in so much fear for my daughter's health. I was like, I've gotta, I've gotta like, I've gotta figure this anxiety out.

Mm-hmm. And then, so you got up to 6 minutes and then all of a sudden what were some of the things that, when did it start clicking or the first time you really started realizing, oh, I'm getting answers here?

Oh gosh. Just like the more, the more that I was willing, that I was willing to again, not have the answers.

Mm-hmm.

The more that I was willing to go into that, what I would say is the unknown, where it's like, I don't have the answers, so show me. And this is when I brought prayer back into my life and not in the way that I had actually prayed before, but it was very simple prayer like, show me, show me what I'm not yet seeing. Guide me. One of the first things that I felt called to do was to send my husband peace and love and like, literally, like, really feel like not just like, oh, peace and light, let me send it your way. But I was meditating And God was like, through the ethers, like, you're not getting through to him at the human realm. Like, that is absolute truth at that point. Like, I was blocked from his phone. We were in zero communication.

Yeah.

And I still had felt this. Our story is not over. So it was like, communicate, communicate with him through the ethers. And I did. And I started to notice a shift right away in the energy dynamic between us when he would come to be with our son. And then it got really uncomfortable when the next thing I felt was, okay, like, you've got that one down. Like, you've sent him the peace, the love. Now send it to her. And I was like, no. Yeah, like, absolutely not. This woman and who ruined my marriage and my life and now, like, send her peace, send her love. And I resisted. But I only resisted for about a fraction of a second, to be honest, because I was in such a place where I was like—

You were hurting.

On my knees, like, whatever. Yeah. I was like, whatever it takes. Like, if this is gonna help me to feel like a fraction of something different, I'm willing.

Wow. And what happened, started happening with that?

This like feels like emotional for this one. Like, I started to see her different actually. I started to see her as like a woman who like I had been like hurt, who was living with a lot of like pain. And even though I didn't— I mean, I knew parts of her story. I was just like, oh yeah, we as humans, as women, like, we're just carrying around so much pain because we haven't been willing to have conversations. We haven't been willing to go to our process. We literally, like what I was doing before, like hide it under the beds, put it in a box, like try to tidy it up. And so I started, yeah, I started seeing, I'd say her, him, and myself all at a soul level versus what I had just seen from like the human actions. Oh my God.

Which is, you know, you're, you're bringing me back to places for me where I've had to go because I had to see people as people or as the little girl or little boy version of them. And like, you have to work so hard to see this person who you I'm gonna use the word, but like, you hate them. Like, you wish very bad things upon them because you feel like it's unfathomable that someone would do this to you. And it's unfathomable because we don't think of their story or how they were raised or who they, who they are, who they were. I can only imagine how you felt when that, like, little glimmer of lightness came. It's it's like one of the most transformative experiences.

Honestly, I just felt it right now in this conversation. In this conversation again, it's like everything just lifted. Like it really did. And like so much of the anger I was holding on to, that place where I said I'd step into so much self-righteousness, like it really got removed. And that doesn't mean it stayed removed. I would fall back and forth. I call this the journey from victim to goddess because it was like back and forth. It'd be like, oh my gosh, like, yes, I can like hold this vibe and this frequency and I can see it. And then something would happen and sometimes I could hold that line of like peace and looking through the eyes of God and the eyes of love and seeing him and her and myself at the level of the soul. And other times I would get caught up in the humanness.

Yeah.

Of the experience. And then I had to meet myself within that and just like acknowledge, yeah, I am a human. I am a human, and so there's gonna be times where there's anger and rage and deep sadness, and that's also not meant to be bypassed.

Hmm. It's such a, it's such a range of emotion. What do you think that you learned? What did you learn about emotions through this period? Like, what are they to you now?

That you get to have emotions. Like the fact that tears just came down my face, like never, ever, ever in my life would I have ever been okay with that. Hmm. The idea, the truth that we have to be willing to be vulnerable. My husband, I remember the first vulnerable conversation I had with him, which was when we were about 5 months into our separation. The first vulnerable conversation I had with him. We had already been married for 4 years, together for almost 6 years, and he had never truly seen me be vulnerable. Not during the first miscarriage, not during the second miscarriage, not during a lot of things in my life. I was not willing to even be who I truly am. I always hid parts of myself.

What were your connections like because you weren't vulnerable? Do you feel like they're totally different now? Like, how do you relate to all of the people in your life?

Completely different. That's why I said the before and after. Like, I am a completely different woman because I'm willing to be who I am. I'm willing to speak my truth. I'm willing to let you see me in the rawness and the mess and the imperfection and the beauty and the power and the conviction and all of it, because it's all part of me.

Mm-hmm. I've obviously gotten to sit— and now you have a podcast as well. You get to sit in these chairs and you get an hour to try to connect with people. And if the person is not willing to get vulnerable at all, there's, there's truly no connection made. And so I've sat in this chair multiple times where I'm like, okay, cool. Well, we got some info. But there wasn't a, there wasn't a connection made.

Yeah.

So I think what's so interesting is we have a lot of relationships in our life before we realize this and go through a lot to learn how to be vulnerable because it's not fun and it's never comfortable. None of it. Even sharing it a little bit, you know, until you start doing it, it becomes a normal part of you. Then yes, I do believe that you can get really comfortable with it. But before that, it's like just people walking around sharing info and you're— and we're wondering why. I mean, you know, you know, I wrote a book on friendship.

Yep.

And I was always wondering why I never felt connected to anyone. It's cuz I never thought it was okay to be vulnerable.

Yeah.

Thought that was like a burden on people. Is that what you had felt?

Oh my gosh. Like I was, I was great. Like what you just said there, I was great at giving information. Yeah. I was great at like being the smart one in the room. I was great at just be like, you stand there and I'll stand here and like, I was great at that. Mm-hmm. I was not great at letting people in.

Mm-hmm. So you didn't feel close to hardly anyone?

Yeah. No one.

Yeah.

And now, like, I don't wanna have a relationship if I don't, like, I don't wanna have a relationship with you if we can't go there. Mm-hmm. And it's felt in an instant. Like it's felt in an instant with my clients, with friends, with people in my life, with friend, people I meet, you know, on the internet. Because the more that you let yourself be like who you really are, the more that you're willing to be the truth of who you are, the more that you're willing to speak your truth and be your truth, no matter who sits in front of you, that's what creates connection.

I love that. Okay. So in your book, you talk a lot about our holy work to be the truth of who we are and use our God-given voices. What does that mean?

That we have to be willing. And just like what we're talking about here, we have to be willing to share the truth of our lived experiences, to not mask it, to not sugarcoat it, to not hide behind it, to not sit in silence. You know, a big piece of writing this book came through was the experience of getting it published. And I was working with a spiritual mentor at the time who was, you know, a very well-known spiritual mentor, bestselling author. And he said to me, this, this story, this book, he's like, it's filled with such great wisdom. He's like, it's such an interesting read. It's so emotionally captivating. Take out the story. And I was like, this, like, to me, I'm like, the story creates the wisdom. The story is the book. Like, what do you mean, take it out? And he said, it's too shameful. It's too shameful for the world to read. Why would you want to do this to your family? Why would you do this to your husband? Your kids will never be able to recover from this. And that right there is the point for me. And so not only did I publish the book, but that became the foreword of my book and the afterword of my book, because through that experience, that's what I mean by this is our holy work. Because if not, what happens if I'm not willing to share this? We just continue to sit in shame around our stories. And that just felt like an absolute no to me. And so I'm not gonna let my kids feel like there's shame around our stories because I'm gonna hide it because I'm not willing to speak it. Mm-hmm. And so the holy work really is being so unapologetic about who you are, your life, your experiences. And yeah, other people are gonna judge it. Other people are gonna be wildly uncomfortable with your story, with your truth. And they get to be. Mm-hmm.

How does your ex feel about this book? Did you tell him beforehand?

My ex, who's my husband?

Yes, yes, yes.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

There is a twist in this. How did all of this, while it was gonna come out, like, how was that dealt with?

My husband was like the most supportive. Mm-hmm. Like, the most supportive throughout the whole experience. He has actually probably shared it with more people than anyone else that I know. You know, he said something to me early on, we were the first time him and I both shared our experience through navigating the infidelity within our marriage. We had both spoken on a podcast like years and years ago, but on separate— like I spoke and then he spoke. And there was a lot of pushback. There was a lot of feedback. There was like, I'm a disgrace to womanhood, and who would ever hire me because I'm this and this and this and this. And he said to me, he's like, people know an hour of your story, an hour of our lives. Like, are you really gonna let that be the thing that defines you? I was like, yeah, no. And I started showing up for the women. Well, I got a lot of public, like, lashback. I started showing up for the women that would send me private messages.

Mm-hmm.

That gave them hope, gave them faith, that allowed them to heal through me sharing my story and sharing our story and, and the truth.

Mm-hmm. So tell me about the— clearly you worked really hard to heal, obviously, and see them in completely different lights. I feel like now, cuz people just got that plot twist dropped, what started to shift and how on earth did that start coming back?

How do we start coming back together in our marriage? I mean, it was bumpy as you can imagine.

What was the time period as well?

About 8 months. So I was, when we really decided that we were going to, I guess we didn't really decide we were gonna reconcile, but that we were going to like figure our shit out together, at least, well, side by side, whether it was together or not, was when Sloane our daughter was about 6 weeks old. It was like, okay, like, we cannot keep going like this. Like, we cannot keep going like this for each other, for our kids. And in the beginning, it was like, I'll support you. He had come to a place where he wanted to choose healing for himself and to like, look at a bunch of the things in his life that he hadn't been willing to face. And at that point, I mean, I was like, 8 months deep dive into my spiritual journey. And I was like, well, this is where I'm going. This is like, like, this is what I've already chosen for myself and, and come and I'll support you as the father of my kids in the sense of like, we're here. And was really honest of like, and I don't know what that looks like for us. Even though I had felt the whole time like our story wasn't over at that point, it was like, we don't really know. And I don't think he knew and I don't think I knew, but we were willing to see what unfolded.

And at that time, do you feel like a lot of the, like you had been able to kind of transform all of those emotions that you had had before, or were they really when you were around him, were they really starting to come up again?

Nope. A lot of that, at that point for me, a lot of that had really shifted after Sloan was born.

From doing a lot of the work that you mentioned? Yeah. Seeing them through the lens of God, doing a lot of meditation. Was that the most of the work that you were doing? It's like really going inward. What?

Really going inward. Really going inward. And again, seeing where I kept wanting to like operate in old ways of being. So keep seeing where I wanted to control things, where I wanted to manipulate things, and literally like stopping myself. It was like, nope, like this is where you've actually got to surrender. This is where you have to have more faith, more trust, and not just faith that's like lip service, like, oh yep, I'm in faith here. It was like, can you actually let go? Can you actually leave this in God's hands?

How do you feel like you were showing up different, like in actual, like, interactions with him? Did he say that you felt different? Was it changing him? What was happening?

It was absolutely changing him because I wasn't showing up in that, like, I want vengeance frequency. I wasn't showing up in you're wrong, you need to be punished. I wasn't showing up in judgment of him. I wasn't up trying to control him. And I mean, if you read the book, you also know, like, there's times where I definitely did. And when I did, I would go back and I would choose again and I would apologize and I would say, that's not the truth of what I feel. That's not what I believe. That's not who I'm choosing to be. And so a big thing for me was choosing and then choosing again. It was like, oh yeah, I'm acting not as myself. And the only person that gets to correct that is me. So I can either let that continue to live and that to be the energy field between us, or I can take that radical self-responsibility, cuz that's all I can control.

Mm-hmm.

And so it shifted from trying to control him to just, I mean, controlling myself in the sense of like taking responsibility for what was mine.

So I'm gonna play devil's advocate of a listener right now who's not where you're at. Yep. They might feel like you're not making him take accountability, or you never did.

Yeah.

What did that look like? And were there conversations around that? Yeah.

So this has been such an interesting one for me because another piece of feedback that I've gotten from the book is people are like, we want to know. We want to know what he did. We want to know his healing journey. We want to know his path. And one thing that I've stayed very much true to for myself is that it's not a journey about him. And so I share through my journey, through my experience, through my lens, because that to me is where the power lied for me. And so yes, he went on his own experience and had his healing journey separate and together. And there was a lot for him of, you know, abandonment wounds that he had to face. That was, that was hard. Like, at one point, him and I had a conversation, and it was very much like it would be much easier for him to choose the new life he had created. It would be much easier for him to choose to continue to live with this woman where he could, where he could hide, where he didn't have to face his shit. It's harder for all of us. I think it is harder to say like, I'm actually willing to look at myself in the mirror. And I feel like I did lead the way. And so he did see me shifting through a lot of, you know, my beliefs and the way that I looked at myself in the mirror. And that definitely created a ripple for him. And he saw me— this is one thing he said, he's like, I saw you like actually feeling at peace, and I did not feel that. He's like, and I wanted to feel that. I wanted to feel what I saw you feeling.

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I mean, in so many ways, one of the biggest things that's coming up here is like, I, I really did come so unapologetic about who I am. Mm-hmm. It's like my, my walk is with God and other people are gonna misunderstand me. Other people aren't gonna get it. Other people are not gonna like what I've chosen. Other people are not gonna like what I speak on this podcast or in this book or when I'm on a coaching call. And if I'm only doing it for you to like me, for you to get me, like mm-hmm, at some point it's, it's all gonna fall apart. Because I'm gonna say something one day, even if you and I are in the closest, deepest relationship and we've been a mentor-client for years, like, I hope that one day I say something that you disagree with. Mm-hmm. Because we're not supposed to be the same on everything.

Right.

And if because we disagree, our relationship breaks down, like, like what does that mean? Mm-hmm. And so it was like willing, willing to be bold in who I am, in my truth and express myself and share from like what I know to be true, true in this moment. And also my own truth grows and evolves. So I often say like multiple truths get to coexist. I can, I can hold what you bring to the table, what I bring to the table, because the calling is for each of us within our business is to be more of who we are, not more of who we think we should be or need to be or expected to be. And so a lot of my work is bringing women into this place of deep knowing with self, trust with self, conviction of self, where they don't waver based on who's standing in front of them, who likes what they have to say and who doesn't like what they have to say.

It's the hardest work.

It is.

We are so wired, and I think it's really— I believe it's really wired even more into women, like historically, that we need to be liked because we don't necessarily have it wired in us to go out and kill and take care of our— like, we take care of children in the home and all the things. If we look back in the past, but we're not out getting the food and building and creating. So we needed to rely on someone who could also do that. And so I think it's like, I do believe it's just so wired in us to be liked that if we're not liked, someone will replace us. Especially this is why I think there's so many, like, you know, wounds between women is it's like she could take my place, she could take my safety.

Yeah.

And so I think this goes so much deeper than— and I know you feel this way as well, but I think this goes so much deeper than any of us know. And now that we're safe and we can, you know, quote unquote safe and we can provide for ourselves and we can make choices and we can figure things out, it doesn't necessarily mean that feeling is going away. So I do think some of the biggest work in entrepreneurship is letting it be okay that people don't like you because we believe we won't be safe.

And I think there's such this fine line too between like, cuz I also have like a very rebel spirit inside of me. Mm-hmm. And so. There would be a version of me that was like, I don't care if you like me. And just like, you know, because it's like I'm a rebel in this and that and I don't need you to like me. But that also wasn't from a place of being more of who I am. It was like I needed to, like, fight something, push back against something. And now for me, it's like I care so deeply about my mission that I can't care about getting distracted because of what people like or don't like or where they're judging me or where they're not. It's like I care so much that that's what makes it possible to not care about certain things on the pathway. It's like, I care so much about my voice. I care so much about my medicine. I care so much about sharing my truth, my lived experiences, my wisdom with the world that I can't stop based on the things that would make me stop before, you know, like, what if they don't like it? What if they misunderstand me? What if they— what if they don't get it? What if they think I'm a disgrace to womanhood? It's like, and I keep going.

Mm. Who have you become on the other side of that? Like, what voice have you felt that you found?

A voice that is just so true to me. So it's a voice that's like no other, because for all of us, that's the voice we carry. A voice that is unique to you, medicine that's unique to you. This is really where I did start anchoring in, and this has affected my business in like the most impactful way, is when I said like, my walk is with God. And so I show up to be the expression of truth that runs through me, to be the conduit for God, to be the messenger. And that involves a lot of getting out of my own way, like getting out of my head, getting out of the— but this, you should, you don't, do you want to really say that? It's like, like I'm the vessel. And so yeah, if it's, if it's, if it's here, it's going to get spoken through me.

I think people can confuse like saying whatever you want, like in offending people and saying it just to say it than like saying what you actually feel will get the message through.

Yes.

How do you kind of— I mean, there's a time and a place to say things for sure.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of what's happening right now online is people are just trying to get a reaction. How do we still get attention without doing that?

So interesting is I feel like our truth disrupts the pattern. And so we don't need to intentionally disrupt. We don't need to intentionally, you know, create the story or be louder or bolder or more of this or more of that. Literally be more of who you are and trust that who you are is enough without adding, without taking away who you are. Not the version that you're trying to be, not the becoming of you, not what you see working for someone else. You, you and your lane of truth is gonna be the most powerful frequency that's ever felt. People feel frequency first. And so if you're pretending, faking, performing, that gets translated.

Mm-hmm. And it takes time to find that, like, and seasons change what that voice sounds like. Experiences change it.

Like, absolutely.

Even right now, like, I, I can feel it in my content. I'm like, oh, I'm not fully there yet, but I'm dabbling in what modality, topics, style. How do I come through best? That's, that, that can be challenging.

And I feel like that there though, it's like, and then I'm willing to explore it all. It's like, then I approach it with this nature of like curiosity and what does it feel like to do this, to say this, to speak this way, to, to show up in this way. Totally. Versus like, ooh, this is right, this is wrong. This has to be, this is the only way. It's like, can I play with this? Can I see if I like it or don't like it?

What do you think is the most powerful way for women to find? Their voice unapologetically?

You've got to really be willing to sit with yourself. I think it's so easy, especially in the online world, to get so caught up, to get so caught up in what's going on around you, what the, you know, the way is. And on somebody else's pathway, you've got to truly know that your way is the way for you. And so sitting with self, sitting in— I mean, I'm a huge believer of silence. I'm hosting my first silent retreat this year. And so like really being willing to sit with yourself. I often call this sitting in sacred witness of yourself, looking in the mirror. That part's not fun though. It's not fun. It's not fun. And when you're here for more, when you're here to grow and evolve, it's gonna be uncomfortable. There's gonna be resistance. And for me then it's like resistance, like, oh, when I feel resistance, Do I stop? Do I go into waiting energy?

Do I hide?

And then what happens in the reaction? God waits. God hides. Hmm. Not truly hides, but like, God is always there. But it's like this— we're met in the energy that we put out. So it's like if I'm feeling resistance and I lean in with this curiosity, with like exploring here, like, oh yeah, I'm feeling resistance to say this thing. So this is probably the thing I really need to say. That takes bravery, that takes that takes, you know, again, that holy fire that's gotta be lit within you. But that creates magnetism in your field. That's what people really wanna hear. Mm-hmm. They wanna hear your holy fire. They wanna feel your personal activation.

So you're doing a silent retreat. Why? Obviously we know why you're so passionate about that. How are you gonna activate them? What do you know is gonna happen? What's that gonna look like? Like, walk me through the experience.

Yeah.

If I showed up.

Yeah. So it's a partial silent retreat. Okay. It's called Without Words, and I, I lead people into the silence and out of the silence. So there's 3 days out of the 5 in silence. Mm-hmm. And within that period, I mean, again, that's, that's where the connect, the real connection with self. Do you know how uncomfortable it is to sit in silence with yourself for 3 days? I mean, there's gonna be a lot of energetic activation. The place that I'm hosting it at is like, I mean, one of the experiences, literally I call it the bed of heaven. There's sound journeys. I lead people through activations into their divine remembrance. And so the 3 Days in Silence is really a portal for you to go deeper in your own divine remembrance. A lot of the activations I lead people in, I mean, some of the biggest things people and clients have said, they're like, I've accessed places that I could only— thought I could only reach with plant medicine. So it's like it's the plant medicine without the plant. And it's like it's just going to be a deep vortex and portal of finding yourself, like really finding yourself your voice, your truth, your divine nature.

So you start, you obviously help guide them. There's talking, there's probably some breakouts, things like that. And then in the middle with the silence, are they— is that still included? They're not just sitting in a room being silent?

No. So they're receiving. Yeah, they're receiving. So they're receiving through sound journeys, they're receiving through like activations with my voice that I'll lead them through. There will be a lot of silence, like time out in nature as well, where they are on their own, but a lot of guided, guided in the silence. Okay.

That would be my kind of jam because if it was just quiet in a room, I'm like, because I actually get activated by other. Yeah.

Things.

Yeah. And it helps me start thinking, which even if it's, it just like spurs a lot of thoughts that I want. Yes. Or by sound that really helps me too. So at first I'm like, oh my God, silence. That sounds actually awful.

So, so even when I said silence, this is why I called it without words. Because it's, it's the, the women coming like for 3 days, they'll be without words, but they'll be receiving.

Yeah, no, that sounds amazing actually. Yeah, that's, that sounds awesome. So at the end, what happens? Are they integrating? Are they writing? Are they journaling?

What does it look like at the end? And that's why we come out of the silence so that we can do like deep integration. This is what all my work is really about and my mentorship is about, is taking the things that we, you know, maybe get in our mind, get conceptually, it's like embodied integration, that deepening of it.

I love that. Yeah. Okay. That sounds fun to me. Yeah, actually fun.

Yeah.

Especially if people are listening and they're like, no, I want to find this. These things really do. You know how I feel about— I've been on so many retreats. I think I went to Costa Rica 3 different times for points in my life where I needed that.

Yeah.

I really believe that these can accelerate what you're looking for. Yes, it just can. You can, you can do this throughout the year and get your 5 minutes of silence here and there, but or you can go deep and get a lot of answers at once.

Yeah, I, and I personally, like, I love deep immersive experiences. So I love to be a participant of deep immersive experiences. I love to hold deep immersive experiences because I truly feel like you come out on the other side of 5 days like that fully transformed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Where's it at? It's in Nosara in Costa Rica.

Yeah, of course it is.

Up in the, up in the jungle, up in the mountains. Which is magical.

Yeah. Which is Absolutely magical where we met. It's, it's insane. It's amazing.

When is that? The end of April.

The last week of April.

Amazing.

All right guys, you heard it.

Are you sold out yet? Not yet. I haven't even started selling it yet. We're halfway sold out, but great.

This is wonderful. We can, we can post it and hopefully we fill the rest. All right, so last question. When you talk about being employed by God, you say God signs my 7-figure checks.

Yes. What does that mean? This is that when you decide that you're on a walk with God, willing to be the truth of who you are, so unapologetic, God's going to show up in deliverance. The desires that you have placed within you, they're there for a reason. They're not going to bypass you. You're not going to be forgotten. God provides. God's going to take care. But you've also got to be willing to show up for yourself. And so for me, the frequency of God signs my paychecks. I'm employed by God. Like, that's who I report to. Like, that's where the permission comes. It's not looking outside of myself. I also say like, God, God's from within us. And so when I'm willing to follow those soul nudges, even when it's uncomfortable, even when it's unknown, even when it looks like— I mean, there was a call from God for me a few years ago that was like, literally close down a business partnership that's working really well. You are complete with it. And it was a business that was bringing in 7 figures a year. It was, you know, I loved the work I was doing. I loved the clients I was working with. And I was like, that's complete. Can you trust in that? And something else is gonna open up. And so if you're willing to be employed by God, you've gotta conspire in your favor and God conspires in your favor. Mm-hmm. But it's not just God conspiring in your favor. You've gotta show up for it. You've gotta, choose that pathway as well. You've gotta be willing, and willing is such a strong word for me. You've gotta be willing to get uncomfortable. You've gotta be willing to speak the truth even when other people don't wanna hear it, even when it's not being received. You've gotta be willing to shut down what's working because it's no longer working for you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I love that. I think that, that word willing has really changed my life because sometimes we think we have to know the path. And we have to start the action immediately. And a lot of times the willingness starts opening doors. So like just even saying prayers like, God, I'm willing. Yeah, I don't know. I don't feel like I want to do this yet, but I'm willing. Yeah. To be open. Yeah. To what you want to show.

Yeah. This has been such a prayer on repeat for me too. It's like, yeah, God, I'm willing. I'm willing to see. I'm willing to be shown. I'm like, I am willing. I am open. I'm available. I'm willing. Mm-hmm. And that also comes with like some hardship. It's not like I'm only willing for the good things to happen. Yeah. It's like I'm willing for the all of it. I'm willing for the human experience and the soul journey. Mm-hmm. And so I'm willing for it to be uncomfortable. I'm willing to meet myself in the resistance. I'm willing to fail on the pathway because within that I'm gonna trust that there was something that was required. Inspired for me in what comes next. And I think sometimes we're like only willing for like the good stuff.

Oh yeah, that was only my prayers before. I was like so careful of my wording because I didn't want to attract something that I—

that hurt, you know.

Yeah, even though I know and can look back at everything on my journey that every bad thing has brought something exponentially incredible. Yeah, but instead I just keep praying for more great things. Yeah, yeah, I know that's, that's a tough one. That's a really, really tough one. I just finished reading a book called Dangerous Prayers, and it's like one of the prayers in there is like, God, break me if I need to be broken. Yeah. And I was like, trust me, I prayed it and it was really intense.

Yeah. And I think that's also like, that's it. It's like the willingness. It doesn't mean it's required, right?

But that right there, like, if you only prayed, if you know you need it, exactly.

Trust me. Yeah. It's like, okay, so if that's what's gonna break me open, I'm willing because That for me is just like, yeah, I'm, I'm willing to be who I came here to be. I'm willing to have that soul expansion through that experience. Mm-hmm.

I love that so much. Okay, well, I'm so grateful for you for coming on this week. So I think this is going to be so insanely healing and eye-opening for people and empowering, really empowering. I think what holds us back is our fears of, of all of the fears of the biggest things that we're most afraid of. And I think this was such a powerful conversation around how that can absolutely just make things deeper, richer, better.

Yeah. And I mean, that truly is like my desire. The prayer that's been on my heart and in my soul for the past 3 years has been like, God, put the women in front of me. I'll lead them back to the truth of who they are because I want women to feel that, like, to truly feel like they know themselves, that they're in communion with self, that they're touching the divinity within them. The God within them. Because from there, that's— that to me is what makes you unstoppable when you can really move from self first. Mm-hmm.

Well, I'm so grateful for you. We're going to link up the retreat and where to find you. And of course, of course, we're going to link up the book, which is so good, you guys.

It is—

it is riveting.

Oh my gosh. Thank you. It's beautiful. It's riveting.

So much. Yeah. I'm so grateful for you. And you guys, like I said, you can just check out all of the show notes below for everything. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.