How to Turn Content Into Sales Without a Big Audience with Amy Sangster
Amy Sangster shows how a client made $60K with just 2,800 Instagram followers by skipping ads and focusing on clear messaging, a defined customer avatar, and direct outreach through DMs. She breaks down the connection funnel: free content, warm and cold messages, and DM ads. Personal branding and human touch matter more as AI spreads.
Chapters
How do we feel about organic versus paid ads right now?
You gotta start organic. People that go to paid ads because they're not making sales, it's generally because their messaging's off. And so then they spend all this money on paid ads only to find out that the same problem exists.
I've done that. Please, for the love, let's learn organic.
Yeah.
And what works organically while you're not spending money into then spend money on what works.
Like, we have a lady inside our Creator Launch Program. She has 2,800 followers and she made $60K in January. And so I don't think you need to have a big audience. I do think that you need structure, clear messaging, and systems, which is what she has.
Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to have you on because you talk about all of the things that to me are are so interesting right now. You were so kind and you asked me the question before this. Um, is there anything that you wanna talk about or learn about? It's like, well, Amy, I looked at all of your stuff you put out and it's absolutely everything that I would love to chat about and learn about. And you know, we have a lot of masterminds, so we work with different entrepreneurs. And I will tell you that the hot topics in there right now are messaging.
Yep.
How do I get more eyeballs?
Yep.
And how do I convert those eyeballs?
Yep.
Because we all know, and we've been hearing it over and over this year, that, you know, there's been an insane shift in the last year. Yeah. And I also want to make everybody feel more hopeful, to let them know it hasn't gone away. It's literally just shifted, and this is normal. This happens all of the time. Yep. And so I think just being on top of these conversations and being ready for what's next is really big.
So 1,000%.
So I'm so excited because you have done So many different things. But I would love to hear, I know this is such a loaded question when I get asked this, but you have an amazing story of getting to where you are right now. I'd love to hear just a little bit of that.
Okay. I'll give you the, the cliff notes. Yeah.
I'm sure you've been on enough podcasts where you've got it dialed.
Yeah. Well, I'll try. Essentially my cliff notes is I started the traditional way, was working at a bank job. I was studying finance because I was like, okay, well, if I'm going to get ahead in life, I knew I always wanted that. I gotta understand the game of money. Mm-hmm. Went to college, got good grades, and learned, oh, actually a bank job is just teaching me to be an employee for the rest of my life. So I was just desperate for any way out. I had a friend at the time. He was the only person that I knew that was doing things differently. Everyone else was in college working a job. He wasn't, he was at home all the time. And so I was like, okay, what are you doing? I need to get around you. And I wasn't really too fussy about the model or what it was. I was just like, any way out. He was actually trading. So, uh, not a lot of people know that. That was kind of my, uh, very first introduction to entrepreneurship. This is back in the day. Um, so he taught me how to start an eBay business to fund my trading account.
Oh my God.
Yeah, I would have done anything at the time. And it was a good introduction because I learned some skills, learned what I don't want to do, learn how to do some things.
Yep.
But where everything really shifted was when I got on YouTube. So, uh, I actually met— I was manifesting one night as one does. And I was looking at— I was big into cars back in the day. I was looking at Audi R8s. That was like my dream car. And so I was like looking at these videos and I found this guy called Robert Himmler, and he was 21 years old, lived in America. I lived in Australia at the time, hence the strange accent. And we ended up connecting. And so we were just chatting online for a couple of months and then he's like, you want to come over for my birthday? We met in person. One thing led to another. I ended up coming to America. We hung out. We fell in love and we started creating YouTube content together. So that was kind of the pivotal moment was when I started actually creating content with him, sharing my life online. I had been able to quit my bank job by that time and he was very into cars and he's like, you should buy a Lambo for the channel. So I went by.
Did you like Lambos before that?
I liked cars. I was kind of like the tomboy growing up.
Yep.
Um, and before you have the material stuff, I think you really aspire to have the material stuff.
Totally.
And so I was 21, 22 years old and just moved to America, had quit my bank job, was making good money, bought the Lambo, went viral for being 22-year-old girl buys Lamborghini, which taught me some very interesting lessons about being perceived by a whole bunch of people because 100 million people saw videos. Yeah. So it was a lot. But the positive to come out of that was this is like before the era of online courses and, you know, the way that things are now. Is people wanted to learn. They wanted to learn what I had learned. And I had been deep down the personal development, finance, education rabbit hole. And so we created a course, me and that friend that taught me. We did it all the wrong ways. We spent a year building it like written course format.
That's what you did back then.
Yeah. Prepare, prepare, prepare. Yeah, 1,000%. Thankfully, because we had such a big audience, it went great. We made 7 figures our first year. But not only that, we saw like really, really cool ripple effects. People were meeting inside our communities. I know you're a big advocate for that as well. I've met incredible people just from the, the groups that I've been a part of. Same thing was happening in this container. People were changing their life, quitting their job. And so that became the basis of 8 years of an online education business where I taught myself all of the business side of what it actually is to be a creator, because I had the audience but I didn't know digital marketing, I didn't know any of that stuff. So yeah, that was kind of how it all started. And then that led into meeting incredible people in the space Uh, working and partnering with them to grow their companies. Now building MemberUp, a software company, the platform I wish I had to bring it all together. So it's kind of been a journey, but lots, lots of interesting experiences along the way that have taught me a lot of kind of unique different parts of being an entrepreneur.
Yeah, I was gonna say the, those, those are literally all the things that have made you so good at what you're doing now is you were in all of it and figuring it out and you've now built something that you're like, God, I wish I would've had this as I was building. Yeah, but I have a really important question.
Go for it.
Did you learn how to shoot flames out of the back of your Lambo?
Unfortunately, I have to say yes. I wish I didn't have to say it.
No, that's— if you have a Lambo, you have to shoot the flames out the back.
Oh, that's the funny thing. It's like I'm such a huge advocate for having a personal brand, but the, the funny and cringy part of it is your entire life is documented, even the parts where you're buying Lambos and shooting flames.
Okay, so I can find that video, you're saying? Unfortunately, I'll make you a sweatshirt with a Lambo.
It's— please don't remember, remember up on it.
Oh no, it's your new marketing strategy.
This is going to be great. Speaking of messaging, this is the angle I'm going with it. It's gonna be good.
No, there's so much stuff that I'm like, just please don't Google the fitness days. Like, that was so long ago, and the things we did in Warren, all the— yeah, there's so much. But I love it. Like, you have to love that version of yourself.
And look at what it did. A thousand percent. If I never made that choice, if I never got online, if I never was cringe— like, uh, you're friends with Jasmine as well. We're constantly texting each other like, be more cringe, lean into the cringe, because it truly does just change everything if you're willing to just post the video. Like, so much comes from it, even if it is flamethrowing. Yeah, exactly.
I'm gonna find that video. Uh, okay, so tell me about where you're at. Like, where is your passion right now based on all of that? Like, the thing that right now at this moment in time, what are you really obsessed with talking about and teaching people? Because you just see a massive need for it.
I think it's the intersection between being a creator.
Mm-hmm.
Because obviously even if you're a founder nowadays, you know, you need to create content.
Yes.
And if you're a creator, you know, you need to have a business to sustain being a creator. Yes. So the intersection between being a creator and actually having a sustainable business on the back end of it is what I love talking about. So all of the skill sets that you need to learn as a creator to monetize sales, setting like deep down the rabbit hole of data operations, all of that side I'm a nerd on.
Mm-hmm.
But at the same time, I really love, like I started as a creator, I really love creating content, the messaging. of that, being able to connect with people and build a community online. So making it all make sense. How can we create content that serves our brand? How can we do it in a way where we don't create this massive ginormous business that we started for freedom and then just drives us so far away from that? Mm-hmm. I am obsessed with, yeah, all things creator business.
Okay. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about all of the different avenues and kind of different levels of people too. So I wanna start. Um, for more of the beginner, a lot of people that I, you know, who listen to this podcast, a lot of people in my world, they'll have one of those pieces. I find a lot of them actually have more of like, um, they'll have a program or they'll have coaching or a membership or a product or a brick and mortar, but they are really lacking in the personal brand or branding and marketing department and figuring out how to get sales. Let's kind of talk about From more of a beginner's perspective of somebody who's like, okay, well I have a social media presence, but it sucks, especially now.
Yeah.
And I can't seem to convert people, um, into dollars right now.
Okay. I mean, we could go deep on that, but there's a couple of things. Mm-hmm. I think the first thing is how are you actually selling off of social media? Because I think a lot of people think that if they just create the content, people are just gonna get in their DMs and wanna buy it or click the link in bio and start buying. Mm-hmm. And that can happen here and there, but. As someone that even had a ton of traffic, that is more on the rare side than you actually having a process to help someone make a buying decision. Like any business knows that you have to help someone understand the offer, the product. Mm-hmm. Is it right for them? And on social media, I think people forget that. They just think, I'm gonna create content about my life or my product and people are just gonna show up.
Mm-hmm.
But it's the same top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel that exists in any business. We just have to learn how to do that throughout content.
Hmm.
So the first thing is just knowing your avatar. It's like anything, who are you speaking to? I think when we start to attach the word personal brand, it becomes about us.
Mm-hmm.
Instead of actually being about the audience that we're serving. And so instead you gotta think of it as how can I use my story to serve this audience? So yes, it's us creating. Yes, we can weave in our story, but we have to make it applicable to help that person actually, like if it's a coaching program, how can they learn from it? How can they grow from it? From there, we have to understand that there is visibility content. So how do we get seen? If you're just starting out and you have 100 followers, well, how do we get new people, new eyeballs? That's very different kind of content to someone that's actually gonna make a purchasing decision. Mm-hmm. So we have to figure out like, what's the sweet spot? How do we weave in all of these things? But it all starts with knowing exactly who you're speaking to. Mm. So if anyone's listening right now and they're like, I have no idea who I'm speaking to, the first thing that you wanna write out is I like to give them a name.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think when we are creating content, we're like speaking into this big void online. It's like, I'm gonna connect with everyone. Yeah. Or, you know, this vague type of person, give them a name. So mine, like my avatar, my beginner avatar is Confused Carrie. I know exactly.
Like, you know, and it's actually a client name that I've worked with.
So ideally, like think of someone that you know, like the back of your hand that you're talking to.
Mm-hmm.
Just talk to that one person every day, even if you don't have content formats and all of the technicalities nailed. If you just show up and share a message with that person to help them move forward toward their goal, that's gonna be way better than just trying to like copy trends or anything that you see. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the first thing. Second thing is how, when we get that person's, uh, attention, how are we thinking about what they hope to happen? How are we thinking about what their dreams are, their fears, and their blockers? So that's the next thing. Write out those 4 different headings. So confused Carrie. This is a general description of who she is.
Mm-hmm.
She's struggling with making content online. She wants to make her first $10K, you know, write out kind of how she's feeling vaguely. What does she hope to happen? What does she dream will happen when that comes true? So she hopes to start a business that makes $10K a month. When she starts that business, she's going to achieve financial freedom, time freedom, more time with the kids, whatever that might look like. What does she fear in that process? Mm-hmm. Being seen, visibility, looking stupid online, all of the blockers that come up. And then what is truly blocking her from getting there?
Mm-hmm.
And if your content just speaks to one of those 4 things every single day, like that's the starting point.
Mm-hmm.
You're gonna be doing so much better than just posting viral trends and trying to copy other people's stuff. So that's kind of the first thing that I would say is like the foundation of messaging.
Mm-hmm.
Is just understanding how to talk to those, um, those different hopes, fears, uh, dreams, and blockers. From there, how do you have a sales system off the back of that? Because I'm an introvert. I don't know, are you an extrovert?
No, I'm right in the middle.
Okay, interesting. It's so funny cuz I meet these people that have like amazing personal brands like yourself and it's so easy to think, oh, they're an extrovert. They're like doing all the things online. And every single person that I meet, they're like, no, actually I'm an introvert.
I'm weird in a big room unless I'm on stage.
Yeah, me too. Me too. Totally. Okay. So for any of the introverts that are like, oh, I have to be an extrovert. No, you definitely do not. But I think about it like this. If you are just creating content as your lead gen, so there's 4 different types of ways to generate leads. Free content's just one of them. We've got warm outreach, we've got cold outreach, and we've got paid media. And so if we're only creating free content, it's kind of like standing at a party as an introvert saying, I wanna make all these friends and just waiting for people to walk up to you.
Mm-hmm.
When instead you could actually walk up to people and introduce yourself. And that is kind of warm and cold outreach. We can do that on social media too.
Mm-hmm.
People just don't know how, and they do it in a really cringy way, and it feels kind of icky, and that's why they have this perception of it and they don't like doing it. But there's a really effective way to do it, and if you understand that, then it is obviously gonna get you results a lot quicker than just waiting for someone to show up and, and shake your hand. Mm-hmm. And land in your inbox. You can actually introduce yourself to them. So I would say start with those three. We need to understand how to create free content that has the right message so that when we do connect with someone, they land on our page. Then they want to reach out. Good. We know who we're speaking to. They want to follow. But then from there, we can strategically look for people, look for our ideal clients on social media. You don't have to go and reach out right away, but like follow them, like them, engage with them, actually create a relationship. And I think that's the part that people are really craving nowadays, especially with ManyChat, especially with AI coming in. Like people really want human connection. And so the people willing to actually do it, I know you were just talking about this. Prior was jumping on, like, it's working.
Mm-hmm.
When you connect with people, it really, really works. So having a sales system off the back of that messaging that isn't just posting and praying and waiting for people to show up, but is actually numbers driven. Because if we know I connect with, let's say, 30 people a day and I have a strategic system to bring them through and I make 2 sales off of that, becomes very motivating to go, well, I'm gonna connect with those 30 people today cuz I know that I make X amount. So that's kind of the basis of Everything that I teach is there's so many different ways to make sales on social media. There's so many different ways to connect with people, but we got to make it as simple as possible and as profitable as possible without waiting years and years and years to build a personal brand.
Mm-hmm. What is the, what does the outreach look like that you have kind of chatted about? I know for me, I'm trying a bunch of different things, and one thing that I, I think a lot of us are just looking for the permission that makes it feel okay to reach out to people, you know, whether it's a, um, a voice note or writing them.
Yeah.
Like actually texting them. Yeah. Um, but with that, something that gave me permission is I'll put out a post that's about the topic that I would love to be helping people with. Mm-hmm. And then if they like it, I mean, if they comment, I consider that a lead and an invite to go and message them. Hey, I saw your comment. I looked at your page. You know, I study what they're doing on their page. I find something and talk to them about it from something from their page.
Yep.
But anyone who likes it too, So something that I'm saying in my head, because I'm like, leads have gotten a little bit tougher right now.
Yeah.
Because my reach has gone down.
Yeah.
So what I'm saying is I'm like, every like is a lead.
Yeah.
So let's just go talk to every single person. And my intro looks like, hey, I saw that you liked my post about blankety blank. I went to your page and saw that you blankety blank. And that's, that's kind of the door that opens for me. And sometimes I really feel that that is one of the biggest barrier of entries. So let's talk about some of the ways that you intro and invite people into your Absolutely.
Yeah. And I think you're doing everything right because we want to know that there is intent. I think it feels not so great when there is no intent.
Yeah.
It also feels not so great when you can tell that someone's just trying to make a sale and they're pushing their product and there's no real genuine interest in the other party. And so what feels really good is when you take an interest in someone, which is what you're doing when you follow them and do that. But I also think that cold has a place, right? So you're kind of doing warm. People are liking— they already love you, they're on your page. That's warm. That's great. I think cold is the scariest, the most daunting for people.
Totally.
But it's also something that if you are just getting momentum, if you have 100 followers on your page and you're just starting out, again, we can wait a year or we can go, you know what, I'm strategically gonna introduce myself to some people. Nice. Mm-hmm. And having the confidence to do that. So for cold, it's really, really important. Follow that person, take an interest, watch their story, like some stuff, comment with genuine, uh, intrigue as to who they are and what you can support them with. That shows.
Mm-hmm.
If you are, uh, just messaging people, you know, a, a standard— I get this all the time, it's got the M dash, the AIM dash in it. Oh yeah. They like forget to change my name in the message. Like people can tell that, they can sniff that out.
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But I think the biggest thing with reaching out to people is, think about it, what's the first thing they're going to do? They're going to look at your page. So optimizing your page to actually convert is a huge thing. So when I look at your page, if it doesn't align with why you're reaching out to me, I'm probably not gonna respond. But let's say I was a woman struggling with PCOS. I'm using this example cuz it's fresh in my mind, but let's say I was someone struggling with PCOS and, uh, someone that has a page like my friends that I was just telling you about called PCOS Weight Loss pops up. Mm-hmm. They're liking my stuff. Okay. First thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna look at that because now it triggers, I'm curious. But also if they reach out to me again, before I even respond, I'm gonna look at their page. Then I'm gonna see their highlights. Oh, here's how I help people. Here's what I do. If I look at their pinned post, oh, here's my story, why I trust you.
Hmm.
So setting up your page to be optimized is actually a huge piece of DMs.
Mm-hmm.
People focus so much on the message, but we all know intuitively the first thing that we actually do when someone reaches out is we scope 'em out. Mm-hmm. We're like, what's going on here? Do I even wanna interact with this person? So focusing too much on like the first message or the data sometimes takes you down a wrong path instead of going, what does my page look like? And am I someone that. You know, my ICP would genuinely want to interact with.
Mm-hmm.
So that's the cold part. Do I do cold anymore? No, I think it has a time and a place.
Yeah.
Um, and so start there because you gotta do what you gotta do. And you know, I know people that are far more successful than me that still do cold. Mm-hmm. So I don't think there's ever a time and a place to become like too good to do it. It just depends on how you wanna run your business. Mm-hmm. But higher intent's gonna convert higher. Your warm leads that are liking, that are commenting, Naturally, those people are gonna be more interested. And when Lori Harder reaches out, they're gonna know the name, there's gonna be that rapport. And so they're more likely to respond. With that, I think a big, uh, error that people get into is they start coaching in the DMs. Mm-hmm. It becomes a full-on therapy session and they don't have a system to track it either. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the way that I do things is I call it the connection funnel and I have very simple spreadsheet that we, uh, we track everything. So I know, okay, if I get 100 new leads that come in and, uh, I have a conversation that flows through identifying what's their problem, what's their goal, what do they think they need support with, and is it a priority for them to get that support? Obviously in a very human way. It's kind of like a doctor. If you go to a doctor's office and the first thing they do is just prescribe you medication without asking what's going on here, mm-hmm, you'd be like, no, this is off-putting, right? Yep. You'd be out of there. Same thing in the DMs. We're just prescribing our offer as the solution to their problems. So we wanna understand those things, have a conversation. From there, I have a video that I send. So instead of like pitching every single time, I'm not sure, uh, how you're doing. If you're sending voice notes and explaining the offer, it can get tiring.
Yeah, I am doing that.
Yeah. So one thing you can do is once you've kind of figured out the general premise of what works and what people connect with when you are voice noting, now let's systemize that. So let's save you that. 20 minutes, 10 minutes a day that you are spending reaching out with that, just make a Loom video.
Mm-hmm.
Simple 10-minute video. I think we're over the age of 90-minute webinars.
Mm-hmm.
They still work. It always, you know, the right strategy, the right person, it always works. But we're in the attention economy where I think our attention span is this big. People are like, what do you want? Get to the point.
Mm-hmm.
So just stack that into like 5, 10, max 15-minute Loom video walking through, hey, I'm inviting you. Into this thing. This is what the thing looks like. Here's all the details. Let me know if you're in or you're out, if you have any questions.
Hmm.
It's very direct and to the point, and I've found that people really appreciate that. They're like, oh great. Yeah, I was looking for this exact thing. Or they're like, no.
Do you have that automated in your ManyChat or do you—
Nope.
Okay.
Yes.
I was gonna say, so then it, you might send a voice note like what I'm doing and then you're gonna say, hey, I'm actually gonna send you a video on this just so you can see what I'm talking about. Let me know if you have any questions. I'll circle back.
Yep. Yep. So essentially, once you understand that you can support this person—
Yep.
Because you, you wanna qualify someone. You don't just wanna invite everyone to work with you. What if you can't help them? Right? Yep. So once you understand from asking questions and building that rapport, if there's someone that you can support, then yeah, you just send over that video and it gives them the opportunity to ask any questions. Some people sell directly from that depending on how good they are at content and also how much trust they have with their audience and the price of the product. If it's generally anything over like $2,000, people wanna have a conversation. Yeah. Most of the time there are exceptions to the rule, but most of the time they wanna have a chat. So then you just set up a call and that's how you book calls in the DMs. And so your, uh, VSL does all the heavy lifting, like the little video does all the heavy lifting of the selling. You've kind of systemized the questions in there, but I don't use ManyChat. I actually did. I use it to deliver lead magnets. That's it. Did a big test. We spent about $300K on ads, um, me and a business partner who runs the same type of funnel. And we were like, okay, theoretically speed to lead, ManyChat's gonna be quicker. We could automate this entire thing. It was quicker. Mm-hmm. But we saw more people go through the funnel, less intent, less show up rate to calls, less rapport built, and lower sales.
Mm-hmm.
And so it would've been great if it had've worked, but I think it just shows that people don't trust AI as much as they trust connecting with a human. Mm-hmm. And so I think about automation as you can automate with software. We tried that, didn't really work. Or you can automate with humans.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think that's the edge nowadays and having an escalation framework so that you can still do your voice notes. Like I'm still really in there.
Mm-hmm.
Just like you are really in there, but you can't be in there 24/7.
Yeah.
Because you have a business to run.
Yep.
So having a small lean team to be able to support with that and also knowing when to escalate to you to have a personal touch, I think is key.
Okay, so what exactly, like, what are, what are the bones of the connection funnel then? Is it like, what does that system fully look like for you?
Yeah, so I mean, you have to have a profile that's optimized to convert. Like, no matter what you do, no sales process can sell something that doesn't have a profile that makes sense for the offer you're selling and a good offer itself.
Mm-hmm.
So those are the foundations. We gotta have that. From there, um, we start with doing warm, cold, and free content. Once we've hit kind of proof of concept and we have, you know, at least a handful of clients, we're making close to $10K a month. That's when I run DM ads. So, so much of my growth has just come from learning how to run DM ads profitably.
Mm-hmm.
And if I know that I can get a lead for $5, that's my, you know, exact avatar for the most part, have that conversation, they're high-intent people, then your inbox is just constant all day long.
Mm-hmm.
And it becomes basically like the new CRM. So that's kind of the overarching view of it, but happy to dive into any of the details that you're wanting the juicy details on.
Okay, so when you say profile, you mean an Instagram profile. And I've already, I already know where I am failing a bit because it's like the construction worker's home. I can see and tell everyone what to do and then my page, I'm like, okay, I really need to sit with this and get this dialed in.
Always the hardest for yourself.
Oh my God. But what was so great, and I'll tell you why your page is awesome, you already know why it's awesome, But as somebody who's even interviewing you, I of course got to get your bio. I got to look at things on, you know, different websites and ManyChat— or not ManyChat, ChatGPT— all of the things that I go to to research somebody.
Yep.
But the most that I got was from your page. Yeah. And that's how it should be.
Yeah.
Like you had this beautiful, almost like a start here story that's pinned.
Yeah.
That told me your whole journey.
Yep.
From your voice that I'm really not missing anything that you don't want people to miss.
Yeah.
And then from there it's really like I'm able to see exactly what you help people with.
Yeah.
And you know what you're all working on, what you've all created, how that works for them. So let's talk about what that looks like because I fully understand why people are going into your DMs. It's because what you do is so clear. So let's talk about how to optimize someone's profile because even someone like me who's been in this for a really long time. Yeah, I have a lot going on. So I can get confused on what to put focus on.
1,000%. And I think it's something that we all struggle with. Like, you think mine's clear? I still look at it with such a, such a like critique lens every day. I'm like, it could be clearer, it could be better. But that's how anything improves, iteration over time. Um, so the first thing is obviously making sure that you're like, we'll start very basic. Your profile picture has to make sense. And I say this because I have worked with clients who are like, I'm a doctor. And then their profile picture is them with their horse.
Yeah.
I'm like, that doesn't make sense. I love horses, but that doesn't position you as the expert.
Yeah.
Right. So make sure your profile picture's clear. It makes sense. Um, then from there, your bio is really important. Obviously sharing who you help and what you do, like how you help them. There's various different formats. I don't think it has to be your standard, I help X person with Y thing.
Mm-hmm.
So long as someone looks at that and goes, oh, okay, I know who this person is. I know what they help with. Amazing. And I can, if you have it, have some authority, like some trust in there. Mm-hmm. So you've worked with X amount of people or you've generated X amount in revenue, or if you, you've helped them generate, you know, obviously add in what you can there. That stuff's all very basic. Everyone kind of knows that. If you can add a start here pinned highlight, that is, you know, it's pretty long. If you've seen mine, anyone can go and check out mine. Yeah. Um, I think it's maybe like 50 slides long. Is a beast of a thing to create, but it onboards someone not just to who you are, but how you can help them. And it follows a very specific framework. So this is something that is the big difference that I would say between pages that convert and pages that don't, is when you just go to someone's page and it's like, I help people with their nervous system recovery, right? And you're like, okay, cool. There's a lot of other people. That do that, but this is cool. I'm interested in it. I'm gonna follow. What changes that from something where you're like, I gotta have this, I'm reaching out to this person, is a combination of factors starting with the start here post where you position what you do as I help X person with X thing who thinks that they have to do this. So let's say I'll use an example of a, a client. We just recently came up with this, this angle and it's working quite well. He's a health coach and functional nutritionist. So doing the functional side, but there's a lot of people doing that nowadays.
Mm-hmm.
We noticed a lot of people on sales calls were saying, you know, I've tried everything before, I've done all the supplements, how is this any different? So we created a unique angle for him, which he really loves and is a part of his core program, but we weren't talking about it as much, which was genetics. So when someone looks at his Start Here now, basically it is, if you're this person that with this problem, so if you're a woman, high performer who wants to lose the weight, you're struggling with inflammation, you have all of these symptoms. Symptoms. What you think you need to do is basically, you know, eat well, exercise more, be stricter on your macros, all of the things that we think we must do. Then from there, actually what works is— and then he shares his approach and his unique mechanism. So that's kind of what you want to figure out for yourself is like, what is your unique mechanism? And then if you can depict that in your start here— and I wish I could have a visual to show you this because it would be a lot clearer— but if you can depict that in your start here post, your pinned post, And that's the unique thing. So let's say you came to me and you were like, okay, let's say leads was the problem. Mm-hmm. And you're like, I'm looking for how to convert more people. And you came to my page and you're like, the connection funnel, that's interesting.
Mm-hmm.
I call it that for a reason. It's because it creates intrigue. And so I'm not just like, I help people generate leads. It's like, what's that? Now I'm curious. So it's my unique mechanism. And so you're curious about that. You look into my post and basically I'm like, oh, you think that you have to do manual voice note app, uh, reach out or whatever it might be. Maybe you're running a webinar, people aren't showing up. So all of the pain points.
Mm-hmm.
But actually everything changed for me when I started doing X. Here's what it actually looks like. And so that unique mechanism becomes the differentiator that now you has you reaching out and you're like, what's this thing? I need to know more about it.
Mm-hmm.
Does that make sense? Mm-hmm.
Okay. So everything that you're saying is revolving around. Systems. And I think this is one of the most challenging things, maybe for everybody.
Yeah.
Is sometimes by the time you figure out a system, I feel like some systems have changed. So maybe you could tell me a little bit about what do you think is some of the first systems we should have in place for making sure that we have consistent sales?
Yeah, good question. And I think that systems are what truly create freedom, so I've learned to love them. But people don't really understand that, and so they chase the wrong things, like a passive income business which doesn't exist. It's like, yeah, no, it's, it's a fantasy. Instead, if you actually want freedom in your business, you gotta create systems so that someone can come in and do the job just as good as you could do, and it's all documented and they don't have to ask you for the details. So I love that we're talking about this cuz I'm a systems nerd.
Mm-hmm.
Anyone that's seen my SOP library knows this, but I'm obsessed because they free up my time. Mm-hmm. And that's what I ultimately want. So the first system that you need in any business that's more important than anything is a sales system. You have to be able to get leads, and convert leads. You don't have a business otherwise. And I see operators who are like geeking out on all the back end of the business before they even have sales.
Yep.
You only want to systemize something when it's truly working and when you're ready to start handing it off to someone else. When you're just testing stuff, don't systemize anything. You're in the testing phase. But once something works, document it, and then we can kind of move into having someone else do that. When I think about like what's the first system Content is the key to everything, right? We have to create content, at least enough content on our page so that we can reach out to people and it makes sense when they get there. Mm-hmm. So just populate your page with a handful, 10, 20 posts that are really, really speaking to that avatar that makes sense for them so that when you go and introduce yourself at the party or reach out or like their posts and they see your profile, they're like, this checks out. This is great. I wanna, I'm curious about this person. So that's the first thing. And it doesn't even need to be much. I've seen people do this with like 20 posts of just really, really specific content. They had for their avatar. So do that initially, but the main thing is consistency in reaching out to people or having them reach out to you. So knowing like what is the minimum number of leads you want per day and doing the math on that. So with the connection funnel, if we think, let's say we get 30 new leads a day.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. Well, at the end of the month, then we're gonna at least have roughly assuming we have free content to around 1,000 leads at minimum. And if we know that 20% of those people that we reach out to are qualified and get our video, and then from there, you know, 5% of those people actually end up converting, then we can reverse engineer and go, okay, reasonably, if I'm doing the minimum, I'm going to make X depending on the price of our product. And so you want to start to think about it like that instead of just randomly like, oh, I'm going to jump in the DMs here and there. And I think that's the big shift is thinking about it in terms of a numbers game while also still remembering that people are real people and they're not just numbers. Mm-hmm. Because that's what makes it all work. You can just go through the system and not really care about another human, and it doesn't work as well as actually putting intention into it. But it's just reverse engineering the math, looking at the numbers, seeing how much do I wanna make and what needs to happen? How many people do I need to reach out to? Understanding how many of those people are gonna get the video, how many of those people convert? And it's, it can be as simple as that. Mm-hmm.
Okay. I love that. And watching the data.
Mm-hmm.
And that, I mean, truly for me, when I understand the numbers, I'm like, this is okay, great.
Let me hit this. Let me hit 10 people a day.
Let me hit 50 people a day. People a day. Like, what does it look like to do that? And then you have a focus, because if you're anything like me, I'm a, like, creative visionary.
Yeah.
If I wake up and I don't have a plan, I'm so lost. And I can do things that can move the needle, but they're sporadic and they're all over the place.
And you can feel like—
so, like, creatively, I think, um, people who are creative can feel like a loser the fastest. Yep.
Because I started as a creative. I get it.
Oh my gosh, it is like one of— it's one of my life's biggest challenges is like, I know how to move the needle, but it's— it can be all over the place sometimes. So when you really started your systems, was it mainly you? What was maybe the first person who helped you? What, what were they doing?
Yeah, so I like to do everything in the business myself first because I just think you can't manage someone if you don't know what their role is. And I see so many entrepreneurs just want to outsource everything and they don't even understand what they're outsourcing. And then that's when people can really kind of take advantage of you as a business owner too. They're like, oh, this role's so complex, we're going to charge $20K for this, right? But if you know how to do it, you're like, no, that takes a couple hours a month or something. 1,000%. Or, uh, you just don't really get the respect from your team because they're like, you don't even understand how to do this, how are you even going to try and tell me to do it better, right?
Yeah.
So I start doing everything myself no matter what stage of business. Like, even— remember about software company? I did maybe 600 demo calls myself in the beginning. Mm-hmm. It's so important. So never being too proud to do it yourself. Start that way. Um, the first thing that I outsourced was DMs. And so that was something that was very paramount. It must happen to generate leads. But at the same time, it was taking up a lot of my time and it was something that I could systemize quite easily. I just have a flowchart. I have example conversations. I have Loom videos walking people through how we might respond. So it's quite easy to have people come in and support with that.
Mm-hmm.
And then a simple escalation framework so that I never lose the human touch. Like I'm in there a good chunk and I just have a time block on my calendar where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, reach back out to all these people. This person could use a personal message. So that was the first thing. Then I did maybe 150, 200 sales calls myself. Um, and I, you wanna see as the founder, cuz you're gonna have the best close rate always.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's you.
Yeah.
You can kind of say anything and people will, you know, wanna work with you. Um, and so I didn't really understand sales to the degree that I understand it now and how to have a good conversation that feels good for both people that actually works as well. And so I did a lot of sales calls. Then that was the next thing, building out a small sales team. And at that point, that kind of frees you up to really just be in the product as much as you wanna be. Um, some people I know pull themselves fully outta product. I don't, I like that side of things. I like connecting with clients. Um, and then creating content. So that's when then it's just, it's a system that runs. Now I just need to funnel traffic into it. So that's kind of how I did it, was first setting, then sales. Operations are so simple if you keep them simple. And that is another reason I would recommend that people stay close to the business, because like adding on these costs, like having an ops manager and this person and a tech person, that's when then you just are left with no, no margin at the end of the day. And that's when you're struggling. You're just working to pay everyone else's salary.
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So couple things, uh, I created an Amy brain for behind the scenes. Yep. So for any like coaching escalations that we were getting. Some of them were things where I'm like, oh, I know that I've spoken about this before, but maybe it just wasn't easy to find in an SOP or something. So I put every Loom, every coaching video, everything that I had ever done. You just create a custom GPT and that's the first protocol is like ask that first and then you can, you can escalate. I'm actually exploring ClaudeBot. Have you been?
Uh, I've been kind of following.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I haven't set it up. That's the goal this week actually. So stay tuned.
Okay.
Um, but exploring automating different things on that. Um, but we have actually exceeded— I think there's like obviously content systems where you can use AI, um, to get a little bit more efficient in the ideation stage and stuff like that. Um, but I think the reason that we've been successful is because we're very human.
Yeah, totally.
So actually kind of automating more through the human side. But of course I use AI to like ideate things as a thought partner here and there, to create SOPs, all that kind of stuff. But nothing too novel just yet. But ClaudeBot is giving me hope, so we'll see.
Okay, I love that. It's— we're using our, um, Chris and I both have clones that have been so helpful just in some of our groups, and then also with, um, some of our salespeople who have come on. It's like, how would they say this? What would they respond to that? And then if it, like you said, if it escalates or they don't know, yeah, it's kind of like then they can ask. But for the most part, the feedback has been insane, like, because we fed it everything we've ever said or done or calls. And so It's pretty much exactly what we would be doing, which saves so much time.
1,000%.
Um, so where do you think we can, you know, with so much AI happening, where do you think we as humans can really put our energy and effort to stand out?
Yeah, so I think as AI comes in more and more, the one thing that people are going to want more and more and will become scarce is trust. Mm-hmm. And so personal brand, I think, is your biggest moat against AI. And I actually did an interesting poll on my stories recently where it was like, how many of you wanna make money online? Pretty much every 100% of people. Yes. How many of you wanna build a personal brand? It was much, much smaller percentage of people. But ironically, we all know that that is the conduit to making money online. Obviously, if you want to sell anything to anyone, it would make sense that they know, like, and trust you.
Mm-hmm.
But we don't because we're scared of it. Mm-hmm. We're scared to show up. We have all these blockers. And so I think just removing those blockers, removing the fear, leaning into building a personal brand is gonna set you up for success. We are seeing all these layoffs all across, you know, big businesses. And I feel like those that have a personal brand are positioned well no matter what craziness transpires in the next 5 to 10 years. So I definitely think that, I think in-person events too.
Mm-hmm.
I know you do a lot of this. Mm-hmm. Um, but again, if we are in this robotic world where people don't know who to trust, there's AI avatars of everyone walking around, it's like, what are people gonna want more? It's like in COVID. We couldn't literally connect with our neighbors and we wanted it so bad.
Mm-hmm.
So I think just ask yourself the question as everything advances is like, what is becoming scarce and therefore what is gonna be more in demand?
Mm-hmm.
So that's why like the connection funnel, I know that everyone's using ManyChat, everyone's using DM set, like AI setters, and it's not what people really want. They're just trying to become more and more efficient. And so now what's scarce is human connection. Mm-hmm. So I'm leaning into that side of things.
Mm-hmm. I'll tell you guys, I mean, right now I need to get more systematized after chatting with you, I'm going to work on that. But it's— I'm doing it because it's working. And number two, I'm doing it because I actually feel more connected to the people who are coming in.
Exactly.
Like it's helping me.
Yes.
Because one of the biggest things that I have learned is when you can get really systematized, once in a while you can show up in places and it doesn't feel good anymore because you've actually lost the pulse.
Yeah.
And it never feels good when you've lost the pulse of your business or your company or your people. And so even though we want this life that's like like, oh, I'm out of everything. Sometimes it actually— depending on the business, depending on the business— sometimes it actually feels worse to be out of everything. So I love that we're talking about where is it most important to be so that we can focus our energy there, not get super drained, and systematizing those things. So I want to talk about— you've built a lot of different, um, things from your personal brand, but you have MemberUp right now. Can you tell us exactly what it is, who it helps, what it does?
Yes. So MemberUp's a software company, and we started it because we were using Kajabi, Slack, Facebook groups. We were like duct taping together everything that we needed. And this was maybe 5 years ago. There are some solutions out there now to solve this, but no one is good as MemberUp. Um, shameless plug. So, uh, we built MemberUp to basically host your courses, your community, your events, your payments, your chat, all in one place. And we also are trying to solve the problem of discovery for people because what we're talking about, marketing, sales leads, how do we get more people to be exposed to our work and ultimately buy? That's one of the biggest problems for everyone online. So we basically made it a big connected net social media network. Mm-hmm. Um, instead of like, if you use Kajabi, for instance, all that is on you. You have to drive all the traffic there. And that's one person who's maybe a new entrepreneur. How successful are they gonna be at that? Versus if we can help you with that, like Facebook groups have a discovery page. We have a discovery page. If I'm maybe a part of your community. And I look at Lori's profile and I'm like, oh cool, she's also in this other group about, um, you know, masterminds and speaking. I really wanna learn about that. Now I can click through to that group. Oh, now I'm on the sales page. Now I can buy. And so it becomes advantageous for everyone to be a part of this network so that they can get discovered, get found. But we also just made it really simple to use. I think everyone is so sick of how complicated technology is, and a big, uh, part of our demographic is female too.
Mm-hmm.
So I think them more than anyone are like, I just wanna be I want it to be pretty and I want it to be simple.
Mm-hmm.
So we just made it brandable, customizable, so it feels like a home that you actually wanna have your clients in. Um, and really, really simple. And adding on discovery is kind of the, the newest frontier. And the thing that we're really trying to make easier and easier for our creators is just getting more sales.
Okay. So a couple questions for you.
Mm-hmm.
When it comes to marketing, um, how do we feel about organic versus paid ads right now?
Uh, both have a time and a place. Mm-hmm. You gotta start organic. People that go to paid ads because they're not making sales, it's generally because their messaging's off.
Yep.
And so then they spend all this money on paid ads only to find out that the same problem exists.
I've done that. Yeah, I've done it back in the day as well, because everyone who does paid ads will tell you that you should just do them now and they'll learn from what you're doing. And it's like, oh my God, please, for the love, let's learn organic.
Yeah.
And what works organically while you're not spending money into then spend money on what works.
And everyone will tell you to do paid ads because it's an agency that takes a percentage of your ad spend.
It's so painful.
Exactly. Um, so I think start organic, nail the messaging, get proof of concept, get your first testimonials, get clients, set up the system. Once you see the numbers, that's when then you know you can spend confidently on, you know, in my case, DM ads. Mm-hmm. In someone else's case, maybe they're running a different funnel, but you have to know the numbers to be able to spend confidently. If you can't say, what does it cost to get a lead? How many of those are ultimately going to convert? And see that drop-off across the funnel. That would be terrifying to start spending on ads with just a hope. Um, so I think both are important. I think organic will get you so far. Like we have a lady inside, um, our creator launch program, she has 2,800 followers and she made $60K in January. And so I don't think you need to have a big audience.
Mm-hmm.
I do think that you need structure, clear messaging and systems, which is what she has. Mm. If she hits a point with organic where she's like, man, I've maximized this channel. I can't possibly get any more out of organic, then we'll add on DM ads into a funnel that's already existing. And so she's just doing more of what's already working. It's not a new thing.
Mm-hmm.
So I always think about it like that, like when to add on a new channel, cuz I think that's a big thing for new entrepreneurs as well, is like we wanna do everything. Not even just new entrepreneurs. I'm guilty of this. I wanna do everything all the time. I have a million different ideas.
Same.
I want a podcast. I wanna start back on YouTube. I wanna do all of these things and it's like, You know, in the beginning you're one person. How are you realistically gonna do all of that? So I have one marketing channel, one simple, clear offer to a million dollars.
Mm-hmm.
Do that, then add on more.
Mm-hmm.
If you can't get to a million organically, let's max out organic. And then as soon as we've hit our limit with organic, add on paid ads. I think it's also knowing what kind of business you wanna run too. Mm-hmm. I call this like your entrepreneurial archetype because I've worked with people whose version of success is I wanna make $10K a month and spend more time with my kids.
Yep.
And Amy, I don't have no interest in doing any of these things that you're doing.
Mm-hmm.
And I've, on the contrary, worked with people who are like, I wanna hit 7, 8 figures in my business. How do I get there?
Mm-hmm.
People's version of success looks different. So in my programs, we like define your entrepreneurial archetype and we build a pricing and a sales system that actually makes sense for that, which I think is such a like unspoken about thing that people should be thinking about. So if you start running ads and you have a lean team, okay, now your time is spent on, you do a couple management meetings a week. Do you wanna do that? Is it worth the trade-off to get to 6 figures a month? Maybe, maybe not.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so knowing kind of where you wanna go with the business and making decisions in line with that, I think is really, really key.
Okay. So you've mentioned DM ads. Can you explain to people what the difference is between like Meta DM ads?
Mm-hmm. So it is Meta.
Okay.
Um, so it's through Facebook. Yep. But when you're on Facebook, there are different types of campaigns that you can run. And so traditionally it's just, you know, clicking off to a website. So there's like a link on the ad, people click off, they go to some landing page somewhere. But a lot of people don't know you can also run ads to— it's a send message. So if anyone starts following me, you'll probably start seeing my ads and you'll see them. Um, and so it's a send message and it pops up a little thing where you can add a keyword. You can add anything, but I have it add a little keyword so that people can then just press that and they end up in my DMs. So instead of paying for clicks to a website, you're paying for DM messages from qualified leads, and your skill set just becomes, how do I make creative that gets the right people to actually reach out and DM me?
Okay, interesting. All right, let's chat about launching or evergreen as well. So do you think both? Do you think which one should you start with?
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question because I've done both, and both have the pros and cons. Like, it feels really good to do a big launch and to, you know, get a lot of cash in the bank. And at the same time, on the contrary, it also feels really bad sometimes to do a big launch because you're I'm burnt out, I'm exhausted. There was 3 months of lead up to that and the whole team's exhausted as well. And so I've definitely shifted more toward loving evergreen. Like you will rarely see me do anything big externally. It's all just running in the background. And I like evergreen so much because it's predictable, especially in terms of the team that you need. So we did big launches, uh, like when I was working with Boss Babe, massive launches there in my own business, massive launches there. And I just saw the pattern over and over again where. You're like, okay, we're so heavy, we need content, we need this, we need that. Like, so much work needs to go in in the lead-up phase, and then those people don't really have roles after that point. And so it's like these massive ebbs and flows, burnout, totally, uh, feast or famine, um, type of mindset. And so I think launches can be great if you have capacity and if you need to on top of what is evergreen and growing. So for me, like, I've mapped out and projected the entire year there's not one launch in there and it's all just evergreen. And I know, okay, when I get to X amount, I'll need to add on another person to support with calls. When I get to X amount of leads, I'll need to add on an extra person to support with setting. And so it becomes way more predictable.
Mm-hmm.
For you, for your team. Uh, and I also think it's kind of nice not to have to think of like these big external launches all the time.
Yeah.
And actually just focus on content that serves your audience instead of like selling intensely for a couple of weeks and then, yeah, like status quo and then selling intensely. Not to say that there's anything wrong with either one, but I think, again, knowing my archetype, I'm chill. I like chill.
I am preferring chill for sure. And there's so much pressure around big launches. Yeah, I've learned so much from them. And, you know, we did them for years and years. I was in the fitness world and we would launch 3 to 4 times a year, like a big fitness membership.
Yeah.
And it was always so much pressure too around like, if this doesn't do well— and now in the world that we are in, I will tell you, if you are doing a big launch and something happens in the world that week, yeah, and you don't want to be launching because it feels really off-color to be doing it.
Yep.
And you feel awful, and you know everyone feels awful.
Yep.
Now your business and everyone that you employed and everything that you have set up and all of these things are like you are going to have to either push that off or it's a really big deal. It's a big deal now. And I— the evergreen has been making me feel so much better. It's been getting me more excited. And also, I feel like you can— like, you can kind of slowly tweak your process throughout.
Yeah.
Where it's kind of like you're launching with what you're launching with.
Yep. You know, you got to run with it. It's happening tomorrow. Yeah, let's, let's do it.
Evergreen is like, you can kind of go, oh, that's not really working, or that message that we have there isn't working, or maybe that first Loom video I recorded isn't really working. Let's try to tweak that. And you get to do these little data points that you then get to watch for a week or two of what's happening and how people are responding. And to me, that feels so much more like progress than waiting for another big launch wondering what happened.
1,000%. For me, I have a saying internally and externally, it's always 1% better every day. Instead of trying to go for this like massive 10,000% launch, if I actually just focus on improving the product 1% better every day, improving the marketing. Like over a year, you are just doing the one thing so incredibly well. But people, I think we have shiny object syndrome. I'm guilty of it too. Sometimes we wanna start the new thing and then we never optimize the thing.
Mm-hmm.
And so we might have something that performed okay, you know, evergreen, maybe your video's okay, but it could be better. But then we have this new idea and now this new idea's got all of our focus and then we never actually go back and optimize that one thing.
Mm-hmm.
So I've just seen the people that really tend to get ahead are ruthlessly focused. They're really good at saying no. And they've just optimized over and over and over. And that's the, the perfect end product that you see 6 years later into the process is just the result of just ruthless iteration over time. And I think it allows you to spend too— like, launches distract from product. Like, if you build a product that is genuinely serving people, that is amazing, then naturally you get more referrals, and that's just good for everything. And so if I'm spending 3 extra months externally building up to this launch Or I'm just running an evergreen system and I can pour some of that into the product or maybe building an ascension or something that will increase LTV. Like that's way more beneficial for the customers and it's also way more beneficial for the business. So knowing where to put your focus, I think is a skill and it's a really freaking hard skill to learn as well.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Story of my life.
I'm guilty of it.
Story of my life. Okay.
So for $10K months, what should we do and not do out of these?
Let's go.
Focus on your personal brand.
Uh, definitely keep. Personal brand is how opportunities come to you.
Okay. Focusing on trying to go viral.
Definitely do not focus on trying to go viral. Focus on trying to get the right eyeballs from the right people.
Building our Instagram first.
Cut, but with an asterisk because you wanna build it out just enough so that when people visit your page, it makes sense.
Mm-hmm. Posting about your product every day.
Gotta cut it. You need to provide value in advance to people for them to actually wanna be taking an interest in your product.
One offer versus multiple offers?
Definitely one offer. One offer, one marketing channel to a million dollars.
High ticket or low ticket?
Depends on your entrepreneurial archetype, but I would say high ticket simply because it's a numbers game. You're going to hit your goals a lot quicker and you're going to be able to serve your clients a lot better and go deeper with them.
Okay, Amy, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so grateful for you. Is there anything else that you want to share with people? I know that you do now that you've really focused on one offer, you have multiple offers.
Yes.
But what is something that you wanna share with people?
Uh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Um, what I wanna share with people I would say is just, I know it's going to feel cringe. Like we, we opened this podcast, me talking about flamethrowing Lamborghinis. Like, come on, it's going to feel cringe. It's never gonna feel comfortable, but just encouraging people to post it even when it feels cringe. Like it's never gonna feel more comfortable. You have to go through sucking to ultimately get to the place where you're good at something. And I just think the opportunity and the upside of that nowadays is so big. And on the fear side of things, like AI's coming. So building your personal brand is something that I just really encourage everyone to do, even if it means being cringe, even if it means maybe looking stupid. I wouldn't be sitting here right now meeting amazing people like you if I hadn't posted the cringe video. So hopefully this inspires someone to get a little cringe.
I'm so glad you drove that Lambo in flames.
I kind of am too. All right.
Thank you again for coming on.
Thank you.
You guys, we will put everything in the in the show notes below so that you can go find her, follow her, see all of her offers, and member up as well. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.
