The 5 Achiever Types: What Yours Says About You with Brooke Taylor

when you have more experience and you've gone through these growth curves, which we all have to go through when you try something new or put ourselves out there, we're all going to have these moments. Even like Lori Harder has these moments where it's like, I'm a failure. This is what happens when you're playing big and when you're living into your potential. You don't always hit your goals, because if you always hit your goals, then you're not thinking big enough.

All of it's data. It is.

Yes.

The world is changing so fast that you could even be the best at something right now and launch again and have fail, and it's all fucking data. Truly being attached to that, like, understanding what that means, has freed me up to be more free. Brooke, welcome to the podcast.

I'm so happy to be here with you. Thank you.

Well, I'm so excited you're here. Um, what was so fun is you just let me know that you have been in my world for like 10 years, which just makes this conversation even more fun.

Yes.

And I'm so excited for you and your first book.

My first book, Healing the Success Wound.

Your first book, and you're rolling out hard with Healing the Success Wound. I just said, I just mentioned, I'm like, oh, I'm your girl. I hardcore have this. And we're going to have all the fun talking about all the success wounds, all the how trauma has made us amazing, and it's been our biggest struggle. But that's where I would love to start with you is whenever I have an author on, just because number one, I love bonding with other authors because it was one of the most life-changing experiences that I have ever had, ever. If anything brought up triggers around how I felt about myself and like not smart enough and am I capable of doing this? And one day I thought I was the greatest writer on earth and the next 5 days I was just like a horrible like moron who no one was gonna read the book. How has this journey been for you?

Exactly that. It has forced me to confront every vestige of my own habit of tying outcomes to my own personal value. And I think especially when authors in a self-help space or a spiritual space write a book about a topic, it's because they need to learn it themselves.

Totally.

But at the same time, there's a tension because I cannot promote this book from my own success wound. People will feel that. And so it's the ultimate uplevel for me to practice what I preach. And it's been a reckoning for sure.

Oh my God, I bet. Did you, so did you hire a coach? Like what was the process for you of going, okay, I'm gonna write a book. Number one, you guys, when, when you're hearing people say this, I think people just assume like, oh well, if they wanna write a book, they must be good at writing a book. No, no clue.

Don't know how it works.

Don't know how to put a book together. Like literally nothing. What sort of structure for support did you put in place to make sure that you could get this done?

It's a great question. Uh, it, it, first of all, it was a slow burn. This book has been an idea for 9 years and it's been in a, a work in progress for the last 4 years. I have hired all sorts of help. I started with a book proposal coach, 2 book proposal coaches, then a writing coach. Then after finishing the manuscript, I had an editor. So I thought writing a book would be— the last time I wrote something was college, a paper. They were like, no, no, no, no, no. This sounds like a lit review. We need you on the page. We need your story. And writing story and from a place of vulnerability and honesty takes so much work for it to feel effortless and flow. And so what I'm proud of in this book, though, is that it is a good blend of like story, insight, and data because I am a research gal, but from first point of inspiration to finished project, I joke it's my first baby, even though I have a 14-month-old because it's been in utero for so long.

Okay, well, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Honestly, I feel like people just see people like you and I and all of these other people online who are out doing things and they think, oh, that must have been easy. No, it's literally going, know thyself. What are the challenges you're going to bump into? And by the way, just having a baby and doing a book, that's, that's also next level.

It was a lot from, um, you know, this book was written and I share this very honestly between the hours of 5:00 AM and 10:00 AM while I was pregnant and I had a full-time business, um, and I was running on about 50% energy. My main pregnancy symptom wasn't nausea, it was just that my energy, my battery would get drained very, very quickly. So, um, I had— anytime you see somebody writing a book, A, know that it obviously took a lot of effort, or B, know in the non-fiction space, not for the case of maybe you or me, a lot of people have ghostwriters and don't write their own books. So that's also something too.

Totally. Okay, so let's dive into the, the topic. I was going to ask you what you do right now, but I'm sure we're also going to get into that. So I actually want to jump in first with, um, you know, the success wound. What What is that? And what does that mean to you?

The success wound is the pain that comes from mistaking success, productivity, and achievement for self-worth. And it is the belief that my worthiness as a human being of love, belonging, community, freedom, maybe even independence for some people, is contingent upon what I produce and achieve and do rather than the inherent goodness of who I am. And I learned this lesson so early on. I grew up in the Bay Area in Silicon Valley, and the cultural definition of success was around big exits, wealth. Just kind of my friends' parents— I grew up in the '90s— were becoming mega billionaires literally overnight. It was just this huge influx of the dot-com bubble, and I learned really early that that's what success looked like. It required hustle, sacrifice, and it looked a certain way from like a salary standpoint. But I also learned lessons like that in my own home. You know, everybody has their own, you know, versions of this, but in my family it was really about perfectionism and it was about achievement. And I remember my dad jokingly and very innocently dared me to get straight A's on my report card. And I worked so hard, I brought home that report report card back, and I have never seen him more proud of me, even to this day. His eyes got big, he picked me up, he spun me around. And in my childhood brain, my wires got crossed because I believed that love and belonging came from achievement and productivity. And that is the belief that nearly ruined my career and almost ruined my life because I took this gold star chasing mentality. It took me to some really great places, right, to my first, to a great college, my first job at Google. I was a young manager, I was doing really well, but I was also living this double life because in order to treat that sinking feeling of emptiness and unworthiness that permeated my whole life, I would turn to drugs and alcohol on the weekend. So I was, you know, from the outside, maybe a classic work hard, play hard gal in her 20s, but on the inside I felt demoralized, empty, completely numb. And this took me to a place, a total rock bottom, where I was sexually harassed by my direct manager while working at Google. And I didn't report it, not because I didn't want to, not because I wasn't brave enough, but because I was up for promotion and I didn't wanna rock the boat. I knew it would anger and embarrass the very people who could grant me the approval and the belonging, the work family that I had come to rely on as a steady state in my life. Because after all, without Google, who was I? I didn't know. And so that moment was a bit of a reckoning because, and you know, sometimes our dark nights of the soul happen, like all the shit happens at once, right? So that happened. 6 weeks later, my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And a couple weeks later I had a serious rock bottom in my addiction. So that, you know, any one of those things would cause somebody to ask some questions, and it caused me to literally question everything, not just in terms of am I addicted to alcohol, my addiction and dependence to external validation, approval, and significance. And, you know, that's what, that's where my success wound takes me if I let it.

Oh my God, I thank you for sharing that. I can't I can relate to parts of it. And I think that we are all— you're throwing us into our own story right now, which is perfect because I think identifying it has been one of the most powerful things for me as well. You're bringing me back to, you know, growing up, it was actually— it was kind of frowned upon to go— well, very frowned upon. I was from a small town. It was frowned upon to like go to college and put your career first and put money first because I was raised Jehovah's Witness. So it was very much like A lot of the people in my congregation were like nighttime janitors. They were like just getting jobs that would allow them to go out in the field and go door to door all day long and then kind of just take jobs that would be just enough to get by. And so that was actually what was put on pedestals in, in my life. So what was crazy though, is like the amount of struggle and the fights over money in my house was like actually it was like debilitating. It just, it would make me feel paralyzed. Hearing— it was just like every single day was stress about money, and it felt like these two conflicting interests. So as I got older, I ended up leaving that religion. But what happened is when I first started to achieve some success and get recognized and have an identity for it, because I had never had anyone tell me you're smart, or good job, or wow, look at— look at how good you are at that thing. Because it was actually like, no, it's you. You're only good if you go door to door and you're a good girl in this thing. So when I started getting like outside, when I left, getting outside accolades and people paying attention to me, I had never had that before. So it was like an insane drug to me. And so the thing that I had gotten, you know, it was like fitness achievements. And so I got attention for that. And not only did it— was it like, oh, I have to be I have to be successful, but I also had to keep the body that made me successful. And so it was like this insane entrapment in my life that I did not realize was happening until much later. So I'm excited to dig into this because I think all of us are finding the point right now. And I think what's coming up for me is I've had a lot of fear, which I want to ask you about. I've had a lot of fear around, well, if this wound heals, I won't be successful. So first I wanna ask you though, what are the, like, you have a, you have a checklist of being able to see like, do we have this success wound or not? Can you tell me about that 3-point checklist?

Yes, absolutely. So after working with over 5,000 people, you know, maybe not exactly like you, but psychographically like you and I, right? Highly ambitious, really driven. Um, they come to me with the co, you know, the, the typical, I'm putting in quotes, women's career issues. Burnout, perfectionism, low confidence, imposter syndrome, overworking, underworking. But what the research showed over the last 9 years is that those actually weren't the problem. There was something else that was driving that behavior. And so here's the checklist. What these, what these women have in common is the first thing is that they had a childhood experience where they learned the more that they lived up to a culturally defined definition of goodness, that you offered us too, the more love and belonging you would have. So for others of my clients, you know, I love your example where it was more about, I would imagine, like being of downplaying worldly success in an effort to, I guess, be of service to something greater, right? Yeah. For other of my clients, let's say daughters of immigrants, for example, you know, success or goodness looks like self-sacrifice, working really hard because that's what survival looks like. So it doesn't have to be my story of growing up in Silicon Valley. We all have these childhood experiences where we learn to equate our personal worth with how we show up in our families and in our cultures. So that's the first checklist item. The second is all of these people had an empty feeling, this feeling of inadequacy, almost like a Princess and the Pea-sized something isn't right here. In a psychological sense, that can be called a, a disconnection from self. But I prefer the spiritual definition, which is a spiritual hunger, a yearning for something else that gets misdirected to achievement. And then the third element is the habit of seeking things outside of yourself, specifically being productive, being in control, being, um, achievement-oriented, having that significance. But as a means of treating this spiritual hunger and this sense of low self-worth. So those 3 things in combination are your success wound. Hmm, okay.

So let's talk about that feeling of like never feeling fulfilled within that. So what's the, when you were talking to these people or when you talk to your different clients, is it like we have these moments where we think obviously we do the thing, we're gonna feel a certain way, We never ever get it. Like, what are we actually after? Like, what are you finding?

Yeah, so I know that you had on Lisa Miller recently. She also blurbed my book, and I love her research that supports this. So our brains are hardwired for a yearning, a searching. We're hardwired to look to find a sense of connection and transcendence. From like an anthropological perspective, we need connection and we need each other to feel a sense of wholeness. Like a personal, personal anecdote, being 10 years in a 12-step recovery program, we talk about the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's connection, because that's what treats that yearning feeling. It creates that completion point. So I'm not saying codependence, like being dependent upon somebody else, But finding something greater than yourself is something that we are biologically and neurologically hardwired for. And when that gets misdirected towards thinking, oh, the next 10,000 followers is finally what's going to get me the next brand deal, which is what's going to make me the next amount of money, which is going to welcome me into the next room. That's when we get on the hedonic treadmill, the rat race, so to speak, and we will be searching but never finding. Mm.

Okay, let's, let's talk about some of the archetypes that you've also found throughout this process, because I think some of the most, some of the most fun conversations are the realizations. Number one, we're all not that different, and there is such categories of us all going through the same thing. So what have you found? What, what have you found and what are you?

Yes. Okay, I will share all the 5 types of Achievers, and I'd love— I'll share you— I'll share with you which one I am, and I'd love for you to diagnose yourself too.

Okay, I'll tell you.

I have a hunch already, but we can, we can, we can figure it out together. So these are the 5 ways that, that the success wound manifests in your career. So people will identify typically with one primarily or two, but you can be all of these at various points of your career or even various points in the day. So the first one is the grinder. This is the person who wants to have more, be more, do more. A client of mine described herself as a shark without a resting state, a shark that has to kind of keep moving in order to survive. This Grinder says, I need to keep checking things off my to-do list in order to feel safe and secure, because as soon as things slow down, they don't know who they are in that space. So this isn't just having a, a good work ethic, although Grinders have great work ethics. This is about working past the point of diminishing returns, working from a place of being frenzied, frantic, and this need to kind of keep producing at all costs.

Mm-hmm.

I'm feeling that one. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd be curious, what are the consequences when you're in that state? I'm just curious for you.

I can never find peace in the realization that— I mean, like, it's a realization of no matter what I do, I will never feel at peace. Like, it, it's just a feeling of will I ever feel fulfilled?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And is there—

and burnout. Burnout are the consequences. Like, burnout, unfulfillment, feeling like my identity is literally only coming from doing something. Oh, and just beating my— completely beating myself up if I'm not doing something or making progress.

Yeah, that's right. And so from a childhood perspective, grinders were often people who, um, they could be one of two things. One, they could be almost like the prodigy, so the person who was like naturally very gifted, and so they became, um, identified with that idea of being like a high achiever. But the other side of the grinder is that they can also be the person who wasn't naturally gifted at things. I'm putting in quotes. And so they had to work twice as hard for half the results. So they had to develop and overcompensate for a really strong work ethic such that their nervous system, our nervous system, because I have a bit of grinder too, it got used to the push and it only knows the high cortisol. Does it relate to those?

That the second one? Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's so interesting that it could be either in childhood, either the prodigy or almost like the exact opposite. The second type, and this is actually the most common type, is the hider. The hider is the person who secretly harbors big dreams for her career or her life, but who never gets started because she fears failure, embarrassment, and financial insecurity. So she plays it small and safe, and she might look successful from the outside. Like, she— it might look to others like she has a great big career or life, but she knows she's not living up to her potential. And so it's slowly erodes her self-esteem. It causes compare and despair. She thinks to herself, oh, people with half the talent are having what I have. Why can't I have that? And these are people who maybe grew up in unsteady households or had maybe like mean girl experiences growing up where it didn't feel safe to shine. And the interesting thing about the hider is if they, they fear failure to a point where success feels just as scary. Too. I am actually the hider more often than not.

Interesting. I wouldn't have thought that.

You wouldn't have thought that because I have a book and I'm putting myself out there, but it's like against every cell in my body that's telling me to curl up in a ball. And I have for years in various ways. And again, I know there are some people, especially, I worked at Google, I left, I started this business. It looks like big to people like that. But it's been, you know, I have to care for my nervous system every day because it feels scary. It feels so scary to put yourself out there over and over again, which I know is something you talk about, putting yourself out there over and over.

I was— so I think years ago I was the hider, and I had like such trauma happen around not taking action, meaning like my parents went bankrupt. Um, you know, money was so— that the feeling of unsafe. And then when I got married, we had lost everything— our homes, our cars, $300,000 in debt. So what ended up happening is two traumatic experiences around safety, no money, you know, being— watching my mom be in food lines. And for me, that was like, oh, this will never happen. So then what happened is it took Hider, which I was full, full hiding, full afraid of everything, judgment, all the things into number one, which was, if I'm not always hustling, there's no in between. I'm back in a food coma.

Does that make sense? Right, 100%, 100%. And your story is beautiful, maybe extreme, but I think what a lot of people can relate to is it's either I'm full throttle or I'm falling apart. I'm either going all the way or I'm crawling up in a ball. And so our work is to find a second, third, fourth gear between those two extremes. The third type is the pleaser. This is the person who's constantly wondering, are they mad at me? What are they thinking about me? They are very motivated by being liked at the— in the workplace. They like to be agreeable. They avoid confrontation. They most often have social anxiety, maybe in other areas of their life. And if they're not liked, then they're failing. And this is the person who probably grew up in like a chaotic upbringing and was constantly monitoring for other people's moods. And, you know, um, sure, they might look like people pleasing, I'm putting that in quotes, but more often than not, people pleasing in the workplace actually just looks like emotional vigilance. Always taking the temperature of the room. What's the boss thinking? Did the client send me an email that indicates, oh, there's a tone there, and so maybe they're gonna be canceling my contract. That's the person who's the pleaser. Now we often see a pleaser grinder combo.

That's, I was just gonna say, can I be both?

Yes, you can. Yes, that pleaser-grinder combo is highly relevant for high-achieving women specifically, who tend to have like a sunny disposition. And it's almost like the overlap is, I'll prove to you, I'll get you to like me by how much I can do. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

I just, I feel this so deeply. Yeah. So are you a mix of either anything, or are you mainly the Number 2, I would say I'm like a hider pleaser. Okay.

I feel like pleaser.

I feel like so many of us are such a mix of pleaser. And what's so funny is the more we can release the people pleasing, the more our career just like we turn into magnets and just become— it's like we stop diluting the thing that actually makes people see us and want to be with us and work with us. And that's so tough. When you go from just everybody liking you and being vanilla, then when you can move into like saying what you really are, what you really want, going for the things you really want, all of a sudden it's like you become people's favorite thing on earth or you turn them off.

And that's right.

Yeah, it's so, it's so powerful. Okay, was it 5, right? Yep.

2 more. I'll go through them. Um, we have the Seeker. This is the person— we all have a friend like this. They spend their day on a spectrum of career confused to full-blown existential crisis. I like to think of this person— did you ever read the children's book Are You My Mother? It's like, oh, okay, it's a little— it's a— it's kind of like a Winnie the Pooh book, but it's a little bird that goes up to a tractor, up to a locomotion, up to a bus, being like, are you my mother? Are you my mother? Are you my mother? It's looking for its mom, its home. The Seeker goes up to every job, every business idea, and asks, are you my purpose? Are you my purpose? Are you my purpose? This person has purpose anxiety. They want to find their thing, the one career path that will finally rescue them from feeling adrift in this world. Wow. They can also have a very strong spiritual weight on them. Like, they conflate spirituality and capitalism a little bit, which can happen in our space where it's like when you've found your thing, then you will, you know, you will be rewarded by God or a higher power, right? Like you will magnetize these things to, to, to yourself. And you can look and compare yourself to other people. They have their thing. Why can't I find my thing? And so they either hop from job to job or idea to idea. But the thing about the seeker and actually all these types is that when you're working from the— the seeker stays in business by seeking and never finding. So, you know, the medicine for the seeker, we'll talk about the medicine for all of these, but the medicine for the seeker isn't to seek the next opportunity. It's to seek to contribute their gifts exactly where they are. Because it's not the seeking that's the problem. We're hardwired for the seeking.

Yeah.

It's the misunderstanding that it will rescue you from your misery. Mm.

This is so interesting. I can specifically, I feel like this is my sister, actually. So that's super powerful. So the place where you feel you can contribute the most and just understand that's probably not going to be— I don't know anyone who it's ever been one thing. And when we get that attachment, that's where I really see those types of people, because I can think of a few of them in my life. It's the attachment to thinking there's going to be one thing that just destroys them.

That's right. And then they'll look for anything that's wrong Because it's like, oh, well, my path or my job wouldn't have a boss like this.

Yes.

Or wouldn't have these challenges. And so I'm out of here.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

I'm thinking of someone specifically right now. I literally had just said to this person, I was like, I think you can't— like, the perfect scenario never exists. You really have to go, which part of this do I love and how can I show up in the best way that feels great for me? And understand there's always going to be something you don't like, someone you don't like, a challenge. But is it something that you can look past because of how much you can, like you had said, contribute, add value, be in your zone of genius? Yes, exactly. It's never going to— even my dream scenarios, your dream jobs, you just put out a book that was probably on your bucket list of life. And let me just tell you, I know there is a list of shitty things that you did not like about it and are not enjoying.

Correct? Correct.

You just have to know that's what's going to go with all of it. But yes, that one is— that's a rough one because they get very— I feel like they can get very attached.

That's right. And they can live in a fantasy, so they can get really high and really low too. Um, yes, that's a big one. Uh, and then the final one is what I was when I was working at Google: a work hard, play hard. So this is the person that lives in the pain-pleasure seesaw of, I'm going to work really hard, be the best that I can be, be booked and busy Monday through Friday or Saturday through Sunday. But then I'm going to— I'm going to numb out in unhealthy ways and call it balance. I deserve this. And so they live in this pain-pleasure seesaw, which is what you see in addiction, actually, right? It's like that instant wanting the dopamine hit of both the approval or the glass of wine or the sexy vacation, only to have it kind of have to—

you—

this— the thing about the seesaw is that it has to go the other way too. Pain is the inevitable consequence of living in those high extremes all the time. So this is the person that lives, lives in extremes. And the difference between the work hard, play hard and the grinder is their relationship with relief and play. Grinders find relief in working more. Work hard, play hard, find relief in the extreme play, the vacation, the party, something like that. Interesting.

I feel like I might have 10% of that, but that was definitely like, that was my, that was my 20s. I just, there was no, there was no in between. It was like I couldn't, I had to really, really, I did a lot of work around, um, for anybody listening who, who is relating to number 5, I had to do so much work around what joy meant. Because I remember one day I was like, oh, if I didn't have like, uh, you know, like cocktails on the weekend or going out, I actually have no idea where else I would find joy. Like, it was zero. There was no gratitude in my life. There was no like female friendships. There was no, um, I— working out was a discipline, not something that was good for me. It was like, no, you have to do this or you're gonna You know, everything was, you have to do this or you're gonna swing so far to the other side that it was anything that could have been good, I put a discipline around too and made it not fun.

That's right. That's right. And I relate to that too because when I first got sober, I didn't know any other way to experience relief, pleasure, play, enjoyment. And it took a few years. But the thing is, when you let go of those extreme coping mechanisms, almost like your baseline rises.

Yes.

That it's not these extreme highs and lows. You ride the middle. And I used to— I was like, oh my God, that sounds so fucking boring, like riding the middle. But there's so much— you experience this, this increase of contentment that permeates every area of your life. And it's very satisfying, actually.

Yes, totally. I— and I remember, for you guys listening, like, I remember thinking I would never find it. And now it's quite crazy how much I can love a trip to the coffee shop in a crazy fucked up obsessive way. Love my walks, love my workouts. Not every day, but I really can find so much joy in all of these little things. And I really believe that that came from a really hardcore gratitude practice of 3 things I was grateful for right away in the morning, talking to my husband. And we do 3 wins at night. We have done that for so many years. And I think it just makes me be like, oh yeah, those things are good. Oh yeah, those things are something that I can enjoy. Like, such a rewiring. It was crazy. How did you flip it? Like, what were some of the little tangible things that you did that you can remember?

It was a very slow, intentional process of changing my behavior to then change my identity because I needed Action is what changes our identity, and they reinforce each other. But small things that I did to rewire this behavior was, you know, tucking myself into bed at 9 PM. And I've looked forward to that moment every day because it was like, my head is hitting the pillow sober, I've done it. Because in early days of sobriety, you count days, you count to 90 days, and you know, especially to your year. But I remember just like counting down, like, oh, this is another day that I haven't I hurt myself. And this is another day that I'm living in alignment with the person that I want to be. So that moment of like tucking myself into bed and being like, I've done it, is that moment I think of that almost like dopamine rewiring of like, yes, this is the person I want to be. And there's so much satisfaction in that. So I think it's being— it's about being like, is this behavior, this pain-pleasure seesaw, this extremes, is that the person that I want to be? Yes or no? And if no, like What is that image of the woman or person that you do want to be? And how would that person show up? For me, it was tucking myself into bed, going to a meditation class, going to a hot yoga class, going to author events or, you know, kind of like cultural events that I would be at happy hour for in the past, or waking up early, not hungover. Those simple pleasures that came as a result of changing my behaviors shifted my, my tastes. If that makes sense.

Mm-hmm. Totally. All right. So you, um, have talked about manic ambition to aligned ambition. What is that? What does that mean? How we, how do we do it?

So the interesting thing about our ambition is it's like a lamp, um, but unlike the lamp in your house that may, you could plug it into any wall or any outlet, our ambition actually just has two power sources. It has the power source of our success wound. So our wounding, our fear, our limit— our perceived limitation, our perceived sense of smallness, or this other part of our psyche that's called the true self. And our true self is the part of us that is naturally and inherently confident, clear, calm, playful, present. It has perseverance, it has perspective, all the good C words and all the good P words. And this isn't just psychology according to Brooke. This is based in internal family systems and Gestalt psychology, that we have these kind of two, these two parts of us that can power our ambition. And so when we are working from collaboration, creativity, curiosity, playfulness, we naturally feel more fulfilled. But when we are working from fear, limitations, scarcity, we are going to create more of the same. And so it can really be that binary. Where am I working from? And I don't mean today, I mean in this moment, in the next moment, and the next moment, and the next moment. You know, you asked a question earlier, am I going to lose my edge if I heal my success wound, right? And so that belief and that question is actually what keeps us in our grinder, in our seeker, in our pleaser, because that question is coming from the part of us that gets rewarded by repeating the same protective patterns. Because these 5 types of unfulfilled achievers are the part of our psyche that's trying to protect us from feeling hurt, embarrassed, that old shame reigniting, the financial failure or scarcity that we experienced in childhood. And so these protective behaviors, these grinder, hider, pleaser, they actually don't want you to change. They don't want you to get bigger. They don't want you to rock the boat. They don't want you to succeed. They don't want you to be content, because if you were to be content and fulfilled, they'd be out of a job. So again, that question of, won't I lose my edge, is coming from the part of you that wants you to stay in the same pattern. But when we're acting from our aligned ambition, we naturally are able to come up with more innovative or creative ideas. We're able to lead our teams better because they can tell that our nervous system is regulated and that I have their best interest at heart. Um, it's a state of, uh, creativity and expansion. You know in your body when you're in your true self because you feel regulated, present, and creative. You know when you're in your success wound when you feel anxious, fear of the future, and fear of the past.

Okay. Um, let's talk about Um, why we wanna stop focusing on preventing burnout or imposter syndrome, cuz this is interesting. Why would I want to not talk about preventing burnout or imposter syndrome?

It would be like going to the doctor and saying, you know, I have this gash on my arm, and they'd say, okay, let's just put a Band-Aid on it. But burnout and imposter syndrome are symptoms, they're not the root cause. So in the same way that You know, you go to a doctor with this wound and they need to say, they need to do a full diagnosis. How did this happen? Was this, did this brush up against metal? Do you need a tetanus shot? How deep is it? Do we need to clean it? That, you know, burnout, imposter syndrome are symptoms of our success wound. Because if we didn't equate our worthiness of love and belonging to success, achievement, and validation, we naturally wouldn't work in our grinder. We naturally wouldn't question if we deserved to be there. We would be able to show up and contribute again from the space of curiosity, playfulness, and presence. So I don't like when we focus too much on burnout and imposter syndrome because I think it detracts from the real root cause and reason and it never actually fixes the origin of the behavior.

Okay, so are you saying, just so I can fully understand, are you saying with the imposter syndrome, 'cause so, So many people have imposter syndrome around truly doing something that they, I think, is a part of their purpose on the planet. So explain that to me when people feel imposter syndrome, even though it's around something that would be aligned.

Sure. So imposter syndrome is the belief that I'm a fraud here. I don't deserve to be in this room. And I think in my experience, when I talk about the success wound, people are like, well, isn't that just imposter syndrome? They're actually two different things. So imposter syndrome is like, I'm a fraud, I don't deserve this success, and people are giving me praise when I don't actually deserve it. But the success wound is the habit of tying, like, what we do to who we are. And if those two things were separate, if I could hold my ambition in one hand and my self-worth in another hand, then I would naturally know that I am good, whole, and worthy, and I can go and contribute and write the book from that place. I wouldn't doubt that I didn't deserve to be there because my deservingness of being there was inherent because I've defined it according to, you know, to bigger, to spiritual terms, which we'll talk about. I've tied my worthiness to something that has nothing to do with my success. So that's in, in that way, imposter syndrome evaporates when we heal our success wound. Does that make sense?

Mm-hmm. Yes. So let's talk, let's now shift into how can one do that? Because it's like, okay, that sounds wonderful. And also how can we start going in rooms where we're like, you know, I, we, we hear this a lot even, you know, in our masterminds or people who have told us like, oh, I didn't join cuz I'm not ready. I don't think I'm at that level yet. And we're like, people who are way at a level below you joined. So, you know, like, how can we start to put our worthiness and identity in something else? Like, truly, I know, because I have done— I have literally tried so much work around this, and it does— it totally works. It totally works. But I would love to hear some very tangible takeaways for people around, okay, I know I have a deep success wound, and from where I'm at and thinking that I am worthy of the things that I desire feels very far. So for those people, where can we, where can we start?

Yes, so we heal on 4 levels: the level of emotion, thought, behavior, and spirituality. So we're going to start with the level of emotion. So can you give me an, uh, maybe a, a general example of when your success wound activates? Maybe that grinder or that pleaser shows up. What's a scenario like that for you?

I mean, if a launch doesn't go well, um, if my company is not doing as well as I wanted it to at a point. Absolutely, that will, that will trigger that.

Let's talk about the launch, because I'm in a launch too, and I need this too. So, you know, you open your email and you didn't get the registration amounts that you wanted, or you didn't hit your goals. What happens in your body in that moment when you see that?

Um, just massive disappointment. And it, it, for me, I can relate it to like, oh my gosh, am I not relevant? Do people not like me? Am I not smart enough? Maybe I didn't put out enough clear content that actually can help people. Like, what is wrong with me?

What is wrong with me? Yeah. Am I not smart enough? Or not— people not paying attention enough? And as you're thinking those thoughts, what's the emotion underneath that?

Fear. Like, yeah, fear of failure, of like, all of a sudden it's just like worst-case scenario.

Yes. You know, do you catast— it goes to like worst— catastrophizing. Like, my business isn't going to be—

I will go there first. Like real quick, because I've always done that. It's a gift and a curse. But yes, I will like catastrophize of like, oh, is this the beginning of the end?

Okay, that makes sense. Knowing laughter, I feel the same way. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. So now here's another question. Where do you feel that fear in your body? Is it a sinking in your stomach? Is it a gripping in your throat?

It's like solar plexus and chest. Of just like, like anxiety and like deep, like, uh, like the, the heaviness of anxiety and fear, just like a, like a deep sadness that takes— zaps you of your energy, like saps your energy. And you're like, I feel done. Like, how am I going to create from this place?

Yes, exactly. So in that tightness in your solar plexus, if you can do this, I'll do it with you. Okay, do is you tune in to that feeling and you give that feeling 3 adjectives. So tight, maybe. Does it have a color? Um, does it have a texture? Any adjectives to describe that feeling?

Yeah, like tight. I would say tight, heavy, muddy, or murky.

Tight, heavy, muddy, murky. Perfect. So you give it 3 adjectives. And then I want you to ask that tight, heavy, muddy, murky feeling a simple question. And ask the question to the feeling. What do you want me to know? And let the answer come from this part of you, not from here, but from here. What do you want me to know? Does anything come up for you?

I'm trying to ask— first, I'm trying to get into my tight, muddy, murky. Yeah, I love this question. I'll ask. I ask myself, I literally say, what wisdom does this have for me?

Yes, exactly. What wisdom does this have for me? What do you want me to know? Is there a message for me?

I would say around that, mine comes back really clear just because I've actually been using essentially this, what exactly what we're talking about. So I love this. Perfect. It's, it's like, okay, there's some, there's some spots for me that I truly do need to look at and clean up. And like, then I'll feel very, um, like there's reasons for why I'm feeling this way. I'm putting them on everything in my life, but it's really just the fact that I— for me, I'm not sure if this is my head or that, but a couple things that I need to work on. I don't know if that's head or the feeling.

I think there's a little bit of both. Often when I hear head, I hear a little bit of like a story. It's like, this is like the meaning that I'm making of this feeling. But often when we're connected to the feeling and we're really kind of sitting with it, it can speak in very simple language, like, I'm scared, or I need a hug, or like you said earlier, like, what's wrong with me? Or I want to curl up in a ball. For some people, again, it it can show up like as an image too, like of a little one kind of like curling in on herself, of a flower kind of, you know, going back into its bud, for example. So this somatic practice allows us, instead of pushing down the negative feeling of shame, of disappointment, of, you know, would have, could have, should have, getting in touch with the feeling. Where do I feel it in my body? Can I give it 3 adjectives? And can I listen to the feeling? Because when we listen to the feeling, that creates a relaxation response. Response, because we're, A, creating separation between us— us meaning self— and the feeling, meaning this other part. Maybe it's the wounded self, you know, this kind of, this wounded part of us. And so we're able to sit in the seat of witnessing, which creates that relaxation. So that's how we're able to kind of like regulate these negative emotions when they show up. So for maybe somebody who wants to join one of your masterminds or cohorts, and they're like, this isn't for me. You know, other people get this and I don't. What I would, you know, people who are at a certain level can have this, but, you know, what will they think? They'll think I'm such a fraud and I, you know, I shouldn't be here. I would ask that woman, where do you feel that in your body? It's probably a sinking in your stomach, a tightness in your throat, or, you know, something happening in your chest. And ask that feeling 3 questions. What are you scared? You know, what are you scared is going to happen? What do you want me to know? And that's gonna help to extract the wisdom of the emotion. Now you're prob— you know, everyone's probably like, okay, well then what do I do with it? What do I do with it? You know?

Right.

Um, and then we go to the next level, which is the feel— the, the level of thought. So you gave me some really great beliefs about what it means when maybe a launch doesn't go the way that you wanted it to. Like, um, you know, I'm writ large, right? Like I'm a failure. Maybe I'm not as successful. This is the end. Right?

Yeah.

Those kind of 3 thoughts and all the other thoughts that compound. And so the way that you can interrupt a negative thought spiral before it gains traction and becomes this catastrophication is borrowed from the work of Byron Katie. Just a simple question, a simple question to ask yourself when that first thought of like, I'm a failure comes, is this true? Is this thought true? Universally, universally, unequivocally true? Because our suffering doesn't come in having these thoughts, it comes in believing these thoughts. So when we ask the question, is it true I'm a failure? No, it's not true. You know, is it true that I'm done? No, I don't 100% unequivocally know that this is the end of my business. We can then ask ourselves the second question, who would I be without this thought? Who would I be without this thought? Well, let me ask you the question, like again, that moment where the launch doesn't go well, I'm a failure, maybe people aren't watching. Who would you be without that thought in that moment?

I mean, a bunch of things just came to my mind. It depends on how big we want to go. Who would I be? I'd be somebody who just doesn't actually care and does what she feels called to, right? Like chases whatever feels energetic and light. Um, and I would be I would feel free, which also means free to create.

That's right. That's exactly right. I'd be free. Because what you said earlier is that when you're from that state, it paralyzes you. Right. And I know over years you've gotten good at moving through that state and knowing that that might just be, you know, when you have more experience and you've gone through these growth curves, which we all have to go through when you try something new or put ourselves out there, we're all going to have these moments. Even like Lori Harder has these moments where it's like, I'm a failure. But what you do is you become— you gather evidence for a new story of, I'm not a failure. This is what's required for growth. This is what happens when you're playing big, when you're in the arena, right? And so telling yourself that truer story in that moment— I like that one for you. I like that one for me too. Like, this is what happens when you're playing big and when you're living into your potential. You know, you don't always hit your goals because if you always hit your goals, then you're not thinking big enough, right? And so this is a natural part of winning, succeeding, and moving forward, and I am capable of moving through it.

Having these things that you say after the moments are, are the only way. I'm a pretty quick, I have a, I have a pretty fast, alarmingly fast sometimes comeback rate. But it's because of that I have the things I say right after. And there's things that we've adopted in our, in our marriage, in our life, and on our team where it's like, okay, all of it's data. It is. The world is changing so fast that you could even be the best at something right now and launch again and have it fail. And it's all that. It's— that was just data. Data. The world changed. Data. The consumer changed. Data. The messaging has to change. Like So, everything that we do is like, it's all a test. It's all, we call it stupid idea time. It's like, well, then we have to come up with another idea and see where it's at. Let's go talk to some people, what's working, what's not. And it's all data. And that really does free me up of like, as I look at even putting myself out there in different content in the world and trying things that are edgier, because I'm definitely trying to speak more of my true opinion. I'm like, it's all data. Some people might love this version of me, they might hate it. And that's Okay, I'm gonna get data. I have to figure it out. And so the, the things that you even like, okay, if you're putting vanilla content out there and nobody's liking it, that's fucking data.

That's right.

You're boring and it's vanilla and you're hiding yourself, you know?

Right, exactly.

That mantra for me, it's all data, and truly being attached to that, like understanding what that means, has freed me up to be more free.

Mm, I love that. That's really, really powerful. It's all data. And so finding that kind of kernel of like that your brain can believe, because it's really hard to go from I'm a failure to I'm a huge success. You can't do that. You have to find something in the middle, like it's all data, or this is just what it takes, this is part of the process, I'm growing, whatever that is.

Because you, you and I both, you and I both know, like on the journey of what some people might call success, there has been more not successful moments. And it really is what the comeback rate of getting back on and learning from those things is again. And I think a lot of people watching, and I know I'm sure a lot of people that you have coached with, you can really believe in the beginning that you need to be stacking all of these successes. And that's just not what it looks like at all. You have to be just as willing and excited about the successes as you are the failures because of what you learn from them. And yeah, you can hear that a million times, but until it really sinks in, like, you, you won't be able to get to the place that you want to go.

I love— you posted a reel recently, you said it's something along the lines of successful people know they have to put themselves in the fire and in discomfort over and over and over and over again. It's not a one-time thing or a once-a-year thing. It's like an over and over and over again thing. And I've had to learn that. And that's gonna come with our success wound activations in group therapy.

Oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay. So how do we know like what is natural and healthy to be now? Cuz I'm like, okay, my grinder makes a lot of decisions.

Mm-hmm.

But how do I know what truly is something that's gonna be long-term beneficial for me and not coming from a success wound?

So for the person who is maybe new to this and just identifying their success wound, and if they're a grinder, a pleaser, a hider, they might be asking myself, Well, it's right to care about people, right? It's okay to work really hard, right? Yes, absolutely. But when it causes more suffering, A, and then also more of the same, B, is when you know it's coming from an unhealthy place. So suffering, you know, again, happens on 3 levels: level of emotion, thought, and action. But then if you have a pattern and it can't break, right? It's like I'm doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. That's a telltale sign you're working from your success wound, because as I mentioned, these parts want to stay in business. They don't want you to break the pattern. And so it is going to repeat the same suffering and the same results over and over again. So for me, for my hider, for, you know, the last 7 years working in my business, I have made incremental progress. In a way that looks, you know, again, great, successful, awesome, and that a grinder might look at and be like, oh, that's really sustainable. But for me and my hider, I know I've been playing small in certain ways. And so me launching this book and getting to 10 nos every single day in my inbox and dealing with the rejection around that and actually working at 7 p.m., like at 7 to 10 p.m. every day, that's me showing up in a big way. That might be the grinder, you know, overexerting themselves. But for me, that's the medicine. And so part of the medicine on the level of action that you can always take is ask yourself, okay, if I'm operating from my hider and my, or my grinder, what's the opposite action here? What's the opposite action? So if I'm tempted to hide, what's one way I can show up more authentically? If I'm tempted to hide behind my vanilla content that anybody else could produce, How can I show up and say, I'm, you know, I just wrote this book and I'm really scared nobody's going to read it. That's what my coach has been challenging me to do, is like to show up in that space. So maybe I'll do that tomorrow.

Do it, do it.

Okay, I will. Um, and then, you know, for the grinder, it's like, okay, what's one way that I can focus actually just on what's most essential today instead of gauging my productivity or my worth of the day from the 20 things I checked off my to-do list? Can I look at that to-do list and say, what is the most essential thing that must get done? And can it be enough when I just get that thing done? So there's medicine in all of these, and there's so much nuance to this conversation. But I love the question of opposite action. Like, what can I do that's opposite to how I would typically show up today?

Oh, man. It's funny how books are written for a reason when you start seeing these patterns and these formulas. And I love that you wrote this because truly, I would say majority of what you have said, I have like had to find that and figure it out. That's the only way I've actually been able to have sustainable success and start to love my life is be— and don't get me wrong, I can still jump back right back into it pretty easily and I have to really guide myself out. I'm in a period of guiding out right now. But with that said, you know, these patterns and these formulas that you've all talked about, like I have found my way through so many of them. In and use the tools that you're talking about. Like, I'm grateful that you are putting them in a book so that other people can find them as well, maybe without having to go on the journey that I went on. But I would love to know where we can find your book, get your book, all the things.

Yeah, the book comes out May 26th, 2026. It's available anywhere you get your books. Amazon, Barnes Noble, overseas. We have global distribution too. My Instagram is @brookvtaylor. And when you buy the book, you can also get all of the resources digitally at brooktaylorcoaching.com/book. So that's meditations, visualizations, all the things I walked Lori through. You can have access to. And just one more thing. Thank you so much for saying that, because these resources are the things I had to guinea pig for myself and find and collate because No, everybody feels this success wound, but nobody has the tools to actually, like, have a solution to heal it. So that's my greatest intention, is that if any of this resonated with somebody, that they would find a tool in this book that would help them. So thank you so much.

We covered a lot. This was—

yeah, we sure did. Yeah.

I'm so grateful for you. Thanks for, you know, chatting all the things that I also feel on a daily basis. And I think that is such a beautiful message is these are things that will come up for the rest of your life that you just have to keep using tools over and over and over. But when you have the tools, they don't ever fester and they don't rock your world like they used to at all. That's right. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you for coming on. I know this is going to be just an amazing, wild, fun ride for you, and I can't wait.

Thank you. I can't wait to hear the after Brooke of book release. Thank you. I know it's helpful to hear that you feel like there's a before and after, and I feel like I'm going through that transformation process, so it feels messy and gritty and all of that, but it's helpful to know there's an after.

That's how everybody feels. So you're right in the perfect— you're the perfect sweet spot for just becoming someone absolutely insane on the other side. Insane in the best way. Let's just aggressively use the right language.

Thank you.

All right. Thank you so much for coming on, you guys. Go and check that out. All the fun stuff is linked below so you can go grab her book and see all of the extras. And Brooke, thank you again for coming on. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.