The Leadership North Star That Helps Your Team Thrive Without You with Ashley Thomas

When I first opened my business, our whole shtick was no rules.

Mm, how'd that go?

Well, that epically failed pretty quickly.

It's like the ultimate people-pleasing thing where the goal is like, I'm going to people-please you, I'm going to be the cool boss, I'm going to be the cool mom, but it actually does the opposite.

Yeah, I don't think it made them like me very much. I think it created a lot of resentment.

Humans like rules. They like discipline.

Yes, even if somebody doesn't, you really do.

Ashley, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

No, I'm actually way more excited. Uh, number one, I have loved your personality from the moment that I got to meet you. And so I actually, you know, the, the fact that you really help women in the beauty business take their business and actually put systems and feel very clear and make more money. It's so needed and it's so important. And I actually didn't expect it from you because your personality is so warm, welcoming, fun, because normally, you know, that personality is also not systematized structure, like getting people really dialed in. So you're one of those very fun, like dual personalities that I don't get to meet very often where you are, you know, like visionary, very outgoing, but also very systematized and like getting people extremely organized. So I'm excited for this conversation today. You talk a lot about turning reactive businesses into intentional ones. What does that actually mean for you in your industry as well?

So basically what you just said there is how I'm like two personalities at once.

Yeah.

The first very fun, warm, friendly personality is exactly who I always was, right? And then I opened a business and I realized I had to kind of adapt to the other side of things, which is where I got that system-heavy, very system-heavy brain going on.

And so that wasn't natural for you?

No, not at all. Not at all. I don't—

it's giving us all hope.

It's, it's giving us all hope. Yes. I tell everyone I work with the same thing. I'm like, we can do it. I promise if I could do it, you can. But I definitely had to learn all of those skills because I really didn't have any of them. Mm-hmm. And I had the most reactive business. Every day I would go to work and I had my salon and I would stroll into work and then everything that was coming and happening, I would be behind the chair doing hair. I was doing hair about 50 to 60 hours a week.

Okay. And how long had you been doing that?

Uh, I had been doing hair at that point for about 11 years.

Okay.

But I had opened my business and I had suddenly 4 employees. Oh yeah, I was never a leader. Uh-huh. Never a leader. And I was also doing hair 50, 60 hours a week, like I said. So then things would be happening and clients are upset and people were calling out of work and this is breaking, that was breaking, you know, all the fires. And so I basically was like, okay, I have to scale back a little from behind the chair and then I better find a way to figure out these skills, right? Because I had the most reactive business. I was just going home every night and I would be like, Okay, put out that fire, put out this fire, put out this fire. And then I'd wake up and I'd do it all over again. So eventually I had to learn how to be intentional, and that basically just looked like little by little solving this problem, but then also putting it into some sort of system so somebody else could handle it in the future. So that's what I like to help people with because I've actually lived it not that long ago.

Yeah.

And I saw how massively impactful it was on my business, but also me, because I could have never survived that for very long.

I was just going to say, how were you feeling during that? What was happening in your family life and your social life and your body?

Oh, it's really funny that people are going to relate. Yeah, for sure. I'm still trying to get a calm nervous system back from—

same.

Yeah. From like the 6 years of that because it wasn't like I just solved it overnight, right? It was little by little, and then I kept expanding my business and problems just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So right now it's more like trying to find purpose again in my regular life. Mm-hmm. But in the moment I was just, I was kind of falling apart but holding it together at the same time. And my family and my husband were super supportive. But now I'm really trying to get back, not back to that person, but just get a calm lifestyle going on because for 6 years it was like fire, fire, fire, fire, fire.

Yeah.

And now in the 7th year, I'm like, oh, all right, we're getting back to 7 years, guys.

Yeah, but that's, that's so real.

Just 7 years, you know? But yeah, it is so real. And it was like, I mean, it's not perfect still. There are still moments where I'll get a text from someone at work or I'll see a Slack come through and I'm like, oh, and then it throws my whole day. But I'm really just— what I'm trying to learn right now, but also what I'm trying to teach other people. I just had this conversation with someone yesterday. It's like you have to be so disciplined to make sure those things don't impact you day to day. They do. And like lock them out as much as you can.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you can't get the notification off your phone from even happening in the first place, it's still gonna affect you. And that's normal and natural.

Yeah. That's so, so that's what I wanted to ask you right there because for all entrepreneurs and you're, you're mainly beauty business. Yeah. You help mainly beauty businesses, but you guys listen, stay like, stay listening to this podcast because this literally works for all business. Like, this is very, very important, but you've niched down really deep into what you do because that is exactly who you serve, right? But what I wanted to ask you is, you know, what does that look like for people right now who feel like they can't get out of their business? Because, you know, you're in our mastermind, you hear this all the time from everybody. They're like so frantic that they feel they can't even make time for what we're about to talk about. So I know that you had said like, okay, I have to figure this out. Was it 'cause it was a breaking point? How can we help people make time for this before maybe they're at that absolute breakdown point?

You know, I don't know that if anyone's like me out there, they're not gonna figure it out until there comes a breaking point.

Same.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I just wanted to know if you had an answer.

I didn't.

No, I don't think I do. And I don't know if anyone really does. I'm sure there are certain personalities out there that like hear the warning. And fix it before it gets bad.

But I don't know who those people are.

I haven't met many people like that.

DM us if you're out there.

Yes, please, please do. But I think that for me, it's like you, there wasn't like a huge breaking point. I do think of something about 3 years ago, I had just moved into a, our new space at the salon.

Mm-hmm.

And we went from 1,200 square feet to 6,500 square feet.

Oh my God. Yes. What did that feel like?

Ooh.

Yeah.

And it was a full cash build out.

Wow.

So it was like a $600,000 buildout, everything went into it. I had this— I ripped a 120-year-old building down. Wow. Basically to nothing. Built it all back up. We were there for 8 months. I was exhausted from doing a 2-year buildout, running a team of 16, then doubling a team, having 30 people and still doing hair, running on E. It was, it was wild. And I felt all the signs were coming. And then our sewer line broke under our building.

Shit literally hit the fan.

Shit literally hit the fan, the floor, everything. Everyone. We had to close for 2 weeks straight. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. I had two of my team members came in during this closure and they were like, how's it going? Like, and I looked at them, it's a shit show. This is a literal shit show. I looked at them, I was like, I'm done. I was actively trying to get out of my lease.

Oh my God.

And they've been with me since the very, very first year. And they were like, oh God. Like they were scared. They were like, we've never been scared like that ever before. But that's when I knew, like, I have a responsibility not just to this business, but I have a whole team.

Yeah.

That this is literally how they feed their families and take care of themselves. So that right there was kind of my breaking point, right? Mm-hmm. I had to make some changes, but it doesn't have to be some big grandiose thing, but really just look for the signs and then make the change. Or it could get, it could've been way worse than that.

But if they need you to come in and break their pipes, you're willing to do it.

I'm happy to do it. Okay. I know how to get, it was called the shitstorm of 2023. We named it and everything. I know how to get through it if you need me. I will help you.

So good. I mean, looking back now, that is like, you know, it's terrible when you're in it, but you're like, It's a great story and it got you here.

It got me here and everything does really happen for a reason.

So always, it's so tough when you're in it, but man, like it is like some of your, I think the greatest gifts are in those moments of just being forced into something or forced to pivot. So you're forced into this and helping so many other people. So why do you think so many beauty businesses, cuz I've seen a lot of them, I have friends in it, I have friends who are salon, like lots of salon owner friends, probably cuz I sit and get extensions done for 8 hours at a time.

Mm-hmm.

You become friends with them.

Yes, you do.

Um, so I have a lot of women in the in the beauty industry that are my friends who are salon owners. And I will say, I feel like I have learned more about that industry, and it is— it's a challenging industry for people. I feel like there's not a whole lot of education on how to really run a streamlined, profitable business. I think there's not a lot on, you know, managing all the different personality types. I think there's not a lot of personal development in it. Can you tell me why so many women are exhausted by their businesses in the beauty industry?

Absolutely. I'm so passionate about this topic, uh, again, because I lived it, but I see so many people You're absolutely right. This is something our industry struggles with so, so much, so often. And it's truly because most people that own a beauty business, they were a practitioner, they were in the treatment room, they were behind the chair. They didn't like what the owner of their company was doing.

Yeah.

Or they didn't like how it was being run. So they said, I can do it better. This was also me, right? Yeah. And they opened their business and they said, I will never do this, I will never do that. I'm going to run it better. And pretty soon they realize that they can't do it better because they don't know how to get out of the treatment room and out from behind the chair. And I'm not saying you can't do those things when you're behind the chair in the treatment room, but the skill set to run a business is totally worlds different.

Mm-hmm.

Worlds different. But then there's this whole other, other thing. It's not just opening a business, right? It's also becoming a leader. So now you have a whole other skill set that you don't have as a hairstylist. You might have it, but You need the skills to be cultivated.

It, right?

Correct. And so you have to spend so much time cultivating the leader and the business owner while you're actively still behind the chair in the treatment room, you know, whatever it is that you're doing.

And so it's like 4 jobs at one time, which is too much for the brain.

It's too much for the brain.

Task switching.

It's, uh, like the context switching is horrible, right? And so until I got organized and started getting some of those shifts off of my you know, my plate, I was— but I had to work really, really hard there for a while. And I did have learning and working on the business and in the business all actively happening for like 2 or 3 years. I worked really hard. People are like, how did you do that? I want to do that. I'm like, you're going to have to work really, really, really hard. Well, I already work really hard. You absolutely do. But you have to work really hard to be the other person and learn how to be someone new while you're actively still doing the other thing.

What were some of the things that came up for you around— because you're— it's like a face-off with yourself. You're literally waking up and you're fighting that version of yourself that you have been your whole life. And, and, you know, the addiction to chaos is very real. You're like, this feels better because I know it's predictable. I know how the day is going to go. Even if you're failing yourself every day, like betraying yourself in the, the new area, you're still showing up in the old area. Yeah, can feel like progress. It can be like Okay, well I'm making money with these clients at least. Okay, well at least I feel some progress cuz I'm going home and I, you know, did a full day of, of clients. It's like that can get really addicting. How did you start to break that pattern? Cuz it is just chaos pattern.

Oh, and I loved me some chaos.

Oh yeah, same.

I still love me some chaos in different ways.

Same.

I, uh, I really had to be super disciplined. What is the ultimate goal, right? What is the why? For me, it was that I want to cultivate that community over competition atmosphere in my business. But I also want my team to live a life that I have this thing about proving people wrong, right? And most of my team are people that were told in the past, like, you're never going to make it in this industry or you're never going to make it in a— like, you're not going to make money in this industry. So we're going to prove them wrong. So that's pretty much my team. And so I really have this thing where I know, like, they need me.

Mm-hmm.

I'm sure they could do it on their own, but they need me as well to really help them get to the other side. Mm-hmm. And so I have a why that is attached to it that will make me be disciplined. But you have to have a north star. Where are we going? And then how do we get there?

Mm-hmm.

And you have to do what you said you would do. Mm-hmm. Really is all it comes down to. And I had to learn to be disciplined cuz I was not disciplined.

Mm-hmm.

At all. So how did you like get the North Star together? Did you do it by yourself? Did you do it as a team? Did you, did you actually sit down and do it? Did you draw something out, or is it a lot less complicated than that?

So I actually, in hindsight, didn't know this is what I was building at the time, but what is now what I'm calling my leadership compass, right? We as a team sat down. I was working with a coaching company, and they basically helped us create core values for our business.

Okay.

And they walked us through something where my whole team got together, and we were about a year into business. So my whole team at the time got together, it about 10 of us. We came into my house and we all decided, what do we— like, what does 610 stand for, our salon? Who are we and what do we stand for? Of course, I had some opinions that, like, non-negotiables that were already things that I wanted to work toward, and then we came up with them together, right? But then once we had them, we needed to know, like, what that looks like. What do we do with these values, right? The value becomes your North Star. But then what I did is we're going to take it a step further, and I have supporting behaviors for each department of what good looks like for said behavior.

Interesting.

So you're basically telling them, this is what I'm expecting out of you, but also what you can expect out of the business and what you can expect out of me.

Mm-hmm.

So it's giving that layer of accountability for everybody involved to know what's expected.

Yeah.

Um, and then really it's kind of just— I was gonna lose my train of thought cuz I always do that. But that's how we created that North Star because you need something to be able to come back to. Mm-hmm. And then it helps me basically look at that and say through every single decision that I'm I make or my team makes doesn't live up to the values. But we created them together. And it's really cool because most of those people are still around today in my business. And it's just really cool to see what we built together.

And people love that. Like, we want parameters. We want to go, we want to check a box and say, I did good today.

Yeah.

Like, I fulfilled what was expected of me. That felt really good for me. And so some people listening to this might be like, oh God, it feels like a heavy lift and my people are totally going to rebel against this, which some of them are.

Oh yeah, for sure. Oh yeah.

It will weed out who is, you know, going to stay with you and who's not pretty darn quickly. But, um, you know, in terms of the disciplined portion, I would love to ask you, cuz I know you had said I had to get very disciplined, but tell me granularly, like what would that look like? Like when you were like, oh, I don't wanna do this. Like you're at home, you need to be focused, you're trying to get your systems in place. How did you get back to being disciplined? Were you reading books? Did you have something you were following? Is it because you now had a north star with your team that you felt you had to show up for them and you'd be failing them. Like, tell me all the things truly in place in your brain that made you start to be focused. Because for someone like myself, and also just very— I think we all struggle with, um, focus right now because of our phones and task switching and having very busy lives.

Yeah.

What does that look like in the moment to get back to the most important thing?

Many things, but I created a Google Calendar.

Okay.

I have tasks on my Google Calendar.

Okay.

It is the It's my home base. All right. Tells me where to be, when to be, what I'm doing. And then if I can't get it done that day, I gotta move it somewhere else. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So that's the first piece I would say. The other piece is in the very beginning of my business, I had, um, a boss prior to this that basically was like, you will— the town that my salon is in is super small. It's less than 3,000 people. And this person told me, you will never make a business survive in this town, like what you're basically envisioning.

Mm-hmm.

So I was like, Yeah.

Watch me.

Watch me. So that at first was kind of the push that I needed.

Yeah.

To get out of my own way because I had to prove that I could make it happen. Okay.

So find somebody who tells you you can't do it.

You know? And if you don't have that, you're gonna just have to use these other tools.

Who's gonna plant those people in your life now?

Hey, we could do that.

Some random person is gonna walk into your salon and be like, you can't do it. I hired them.

Yeah. Yeah. We can make it happen. I like that. No more secret shoppers or anything. We're gonna start planting people to be against you.

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But then I just had to really just follow the plan. And every year I have to make a plan.

Mm-hmm.

So then each year my team knows what the plan is, I know what the plan is, and it helps me just keep coming back to home base. Right. Mm-hmm. We can't just go to work every day and keep doing the same thing over and over. No. Cause it's not gonna get you anything different.

Mm-hmm.

If you want something, the beauty industry evolves so fast.

Totally.

There is always a new service to offer, a new laser, you know, it's constantly evolving. So. That means that our businesses have to evolve incredibly fast and our systems have to evolve incredibly fast. And a lot of people in our industry don't like the word system because it feels like it's like, you know.

Yeah, but in a very creative industry.

Yes. But creativity, literally, it wants systems so bad.

Yeah.

Call it whatever you want. It thrives in it so much. And my business is proof of that. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but my business is proof that with structure and consistency and discipline, which are all words that hairstylists really don't like, Mm-hmm. You can have what you want, but you have to develop those skills.

Yeah, for sure. What do you think that business owners accidentally tolerate for too long because they care too much?

Mm. I think this could be a two-parter. It could be that they allow their team to act however, you know, what's against how they want them to act.

Totally.

Or they will act a way that isn't in alignment with with where they want to go, right? And they'll use the excuse of like, I don't have time and I can't make it happen. Yes, you can. You just don't. Yeah, we all have the ability to.

When you think of the cost that it was— what it's costing them, the time it's costing them— it's like, oh my gosh, acting that way is probably making people leave, which means now you have to train more people, which is taking up all of your time.

Yep. And I think for the beauty business, there's a lot of unlike guest retention, right? We're, we're, we're basically trying to get all of these guests in our door and we're paying for advertising and we're doing all these things, or the word of mouth is doing it for us. That's a prime example is that people just keep trying to get more people and more people in when really that's just your team is like, oh, I'm so slow or slow or slow. You're not slow. You're not retaining the people. Right. But most people don't want to really look at that because it's, it's a little too deep. So I like to take that and look at the money that they're losing, right? And it might be retention of the team or retention of the client, but they're all losing money because they're not getting out of their own way to focus on what needs to be focused on.

Yeah. Let's say I'm your client right now and I'm like, have a retention problem with my clients and with my team.

Mm-hmm.

What are some things that you would have me first sit down and look at?

First, we're gonna want to look at the culture of your, like, what is the culture? And not what you say the culture is, what is actually happening?

Yeah.

So one of my favorite things to do is a culture pulse survey. It's anonymous. I like to send it out to the team of who I, who, so I would send it to your team.

Yeah.

And they get to really tell you what's actually happening because they're probably so scared to fill that out. It's really fun.

It's really anonymous.

Yeah, I know it is. It is really fun. And some people are brutal when they fill it out and then others you can tell there's like some, they're hesitant. Mm-hmm. Like you just said. Mm-hmm. But first we need to figure out what is actually happening and not what you think is happening. Oof.

It's good.

It's really good. And it's also sometimes uncovers that you were actually right about some of the things.

Yeah.

And I think that's really powerful. But first we would do that. We would find out what the actual culture is because a lot of times the culture is not created by what you say it's, it is gonna be. Mm-hmm. And it's being created by the lack of accountability. And then your team is basically creating it for you, which could be a good thing, but then it's not really your business or your culture. Mm-hmm. It's what everyone created.

Yeah.

The second thing that I would really want to look at is, you know, once you're with your customer, that's a little bit harder because I've already gone in and done like secret shopping at businesses, which is really fun. Yeah, it's a little harder in my local area, but if I'm traveling somewhere, I can get to do that. And that's really cool because again, the owner might say, this is happening, this is happening, and this is happening. Well, if that's not happening, 99.9% of the time, and I don't get to experience it when I secret shop your business, it's not happening.

Right.

Right.

Interesting.

And so guest experience is, in my opinion, equally as important as the actual service.

Yeah, for sure.

And if you are missing that piece, you could have the best service in the entire world and you could be giving, you know, the best blowout, the best injections, whatever it is that you're doing. And if you do not meet it with that guest experience, It's not gonna work.

Oh my God. So I, I am like the queen of going around and trying places cuz we moved a lot.

Yeah.

And we also had some different homes in different places. Mm-hmm. So I have consistently had to always try different salons.

Mm-hmm.

And I feel like I can help you build any program you want around the customer.

Yeah.

It's because it is crazy how people don't realize how much it's impacting the customer and, and and in all honesty, I am the client that you want.

Yeah.

I will go and spend money. I'm a good client. I am on time. I'm rarely gonna like switch my appointment. If I do, it's usually 2 weeks out. Mm-hmm. Or more. Like, I am a client that you want.

Love that.

And when I'm sitting in the chair, it's like I'm watching if people are, I'm feeling if people are gossiping, I'm watching the interactions. Like I'm really noticing even how my person is talking, how they're talking to me, how they're talking to others because sitting there for, like I said, when I get the full shebang done, it's 7 or 8 hours.

Oh yeah.

I am so impacted by that environment and pick up on every cue that I'm like, I can't go back. I have given so many places one chance because I'll never go back. I felt so awful and I was like, oh, nobody here likes each other.

No.

Oh, nobody is helping each other. Nobody was willing to go and help at that shampoo bowl. Like they left this person hanging over here and I don't think people understand how much your client is observing every single thing that you do and how you're treating people.

Oh, I can't wait to play this back for my team. Just like, see, I promised someone like an actual client and this is what they're saying. I listen, I observe.

You're just, you're just watching people. And it, it is the thing that if you want to, you know, getting your hair done is supposed to be in our head as a client. It's like, oh, that's my, like, let me just go experience like a little retreat. You know, like go get to almost like hang out for a lot of women, be away from the kids for a little bit. And if they go into another environment that feels chaotic and bad and catty, like I'm not gonna go spend money there.

Yeah. You can absolutely feel that stuff.

Oh, it like the second I walk in, actually.

100%. I agree with that.

I'll tell you all the places and all the things. I'll tell you everything about it. Um, okay. So what are some of the biggest leadership mistakes that you personally have had to grow through?

Yeah.

I like this. These are the fun ones.

Yeah. These are the fun ones. I've had a lot. I definitely had a lot.

Still working through it.

One that absolutely— one that really sticks out to me just in general, if I can go real general on this, is every single time that I do not do what I should be doing, whether that's having a hard conversation or getting something done that I said I would get done, every single time it comes back to bite me.

Yeah.

So really it just comes down to do what you said you're going to do. And again, I think the title of this should really just be Discipline because I'm just going to keep saying it, but have the discipline to not just, not just for your team or your family, but really for yourself. It feels so good to be able to like prove things to yourself too, right? So that would be one of the lessons that I learned for sure. But another lesson which kind of falls under that is most beauty businesses are going to have a team, right? And so now you're bringing all these different dynamics and all these different people in. And when I first opened my business, our whole shtick was no rules. Hmm.

How'd that go?

Come to work and just be a good human. Mm-hmm. That was gonna be the whole thing.

Mm-hmm.

No rules, just come in. Well, that epically failed pretty quickly. Um, and so humans like rules.

Yes.

We like discipline.

Yes. Even if somebody doesn't, you really do. Mm-hmm. Right. Deep down somewhere you do.

Yep.

So I really just think that for me it was that when I started to see the cracks really show is when I was really just letting people do whatever I want, whatever they wanted. And I had a team member who had missed like so, so, so much work. So much work. And the entire team was seeing it, right? And I had to let her go. So I, I let her go and she was my first employee I ever had, ever.

Oh man.

So it was really hard.

Yep.

Um, I let her go and my little 16-year-old team member came up to me at work that day, ran up to me and she's like, are you okay?

And I said, yeah, I'm okay.

And she's like, I'm gonna give you a hug. And then she gave me a hug and she grabbed my face and looked me dead in the face and said, thank you for doing that, or we were all gonna leave. Oh, have a great day. And then hopped away. And I was like, thank God for her. Okay.

But serving up lessons, serving up lessons at 16 years old.

And I think that was like something that stuck with me so much is like I needed to really just do not just what I needed to do, but also for my team. Mm-hmm. But that same team member today, I'm still friends with her. And she tells me all the time, like, that moment changed my life.

That is so good. That's— I just had a friend reach out to me who had something happen with someone at work, had to have a really hard conversation, and was feeling so bad about it. And it's like, you did it for the protection of the team. Even if that was a good person, they were putting you in a tough situation. So person was putting you in a really hard situation of having to choose. And yet we can internalize it and make it about us. Like, I feel so bad. I can't believe it. This was my first employee. This is awful. I hate that I have to do it. Except truly, when you are looking out for your team, just like she said, like, that's the protection of your team.

Yeah.

So that really helps me with those tough conversations is like, okay, she in one second made you realize like you have all of these amazing people that you're— all of your focus is on this one person who's causing all of the problems. And this will happen to everyone. You will not get away without whoever we're going to call her, without your, you know, Sheila.

Yeah, for sure. It's so true.

It's gonna do that.

It's so true. And if you think back to— I'm sure you could think back, I know I could think back, and anyone listening could— to a job that you've had that really either helped you grow, or the first job that came to your mind when you think of a good job that you had in Mm-hmm. Right. It was either because they helped you grow significantly, either whether that was professionally or personally.

Yeah.

Likely that's why you're thinking of that job right now. And it was because they held you accountable to being who you said you were gonna be and who you wanted to be.

Mm-hmm.

So that's really my goal in what I do is whether it's in my salon or my consulting clients that I work with is I wanna help you be accountable to show up the way that you said you would.

Mm-hmm. I love that. And the, the whole discipline idea, you know, when I'm thinking about everything that you're saying right now around discipline, it is It's really the only way to get confident. And people want to feel confident at work. They want to feel good. And you do not get to feel that way until you keep your promises and you stay disciplined. And I think that's why a lot of the, the beauty industry and the people that I meet don't feel great, like they're not feeling great, is because there's not a lot of discipline in that industry.

Yeah.

You know, so when they do find someone— I have a friend who, like, I've never been to a salon where they've had so much besides what you do, because I haven't been to yours yet. But where there's so much retention because it is so clear who this working environment is for and who it's not. Yeah. What is expected.

100%.

And it is like so beautiful to go in there and go, you have had the same employees for 5 years. Like that's— especially in that industry. It is. What's the turnover? What's the—

how—

what's your turnover?

It would be really very high. It's very, very high, especially in a commission salon, which is what I have. 2 years tops is like the average, you know, employment. But I think it really just— like, in my salon, I pride myself so much. I've had team members for 7 years since the day we opened. 6 years, 5 years. And like, um, as a matter of fact, I just had like 2 weeks ago my very first team member leave that was a service provider. And I'm— it was relieving in a way. I love her, she's an amazing person, but I was so relieved because for 7 years I was like, my gosh, like, it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. Why is it not happening? And I was, I was so glad that I was able to finally be who I said I would be in that situation. Um, and she was amazing, and she went out on her own to open her own business. And I think, you know, a lot of leadership is being who you said you would be, right? And in our— in the beauty industry, people really struggle to not try to hoard the success.

Yeah.

And there's plenty of success for everyone.

Totally.

And I think that having high retention, for me, it's like my team actually knows because they've watched me live it multiple times that I am going to be who I said I would always be.

Mm-hmm.

But they can also be who they said that they would be.

Mm-hmm.

And look at all the great things that come out of it. Totally.

I think that's the hard thing about being an employer is like knowing there are gonna be times for people who they're gonna go start exactly what you started and you know that you can know that from the start and getting, like you said, in that moment to be the person who's like, love this for you. Yeah, yeah, I did a great job.

Yeah, for sure.

Exactly.

You might cry for 3 days straight. Happy tears. Happy tears. But, you know, it'll be— it'll be all right.

Only 3 days. Okay. You're doing good. You're doing good.

We're doing good.

So how did your definition of culture change as the team grew, though? And what did it change into?

I think that in the beginning, again, we had no rules, so there really wasn't necessarily a culture. But I think that in the beginning it was kind of this rebellion. We were all there to kind of a little bit. The very first group of people was like, we're all going to prove some something to someone. And over time it just became that we're, we're really just going to continue to support each other because that's that community over competition. And now culture in the beginning, I think I thought it was words like what I said it was going to be, right? Or what my team said it was. But now I really think it's just, it's, it's moments and behaviors that when somebody is having— I just had a team member out sick for a couple of weeks and the way my team rallied around her and rallied around the customer and the client and the business to support everything. That's culture. Wow. Like the things that happen when you're not watching is culture. And I think oftentimes we think it's the things that are happening when we are watching. When really it's what people are acting like when you are not in the room. Mm-hmm. And I don't think I knew that at first. I thought it was gonna be these nice little script words on the wall.

Mm-hmm.

And it's really just how people show up. Mm-hmm. Not even just for each other, for the business and for you. Like, I've had people show up for me and that is the culture that we've built. Mm-hmm. Is we're all in it together and we're all there for each other.

Okay.

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You know, you were talking about the, the no rules culture that you had started with, which like is so funny and fun. I love that for you. Yeah. I love that. That's how you started it.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's like the ultimate people pleasing thing where the goal is like, I'm gonna people please you. I'm gonna be the cool boss. I'm gonna be the cool mom, whatever it is. But it actually. Does the opposite. Like, during that time, how many people actually— do you feel like that made people like you or actually kind of not like you?

Yeah, I don't think it made them like me very much. I think they created a lot of, um, resentment.

Whether the weirdest—

yeah, it was so weird. I mean, they, they liked me enough to say, right? Um, but I think it just created this because things weren't clear. They didn't know what to expect out of me. I didn't know what to expect out of them.

Because things you're asking them could feel left field. And then it's like, oh yeah, like what?

Like, and now it's like when people get hired because we have these values and we have these what good looks like, you know, behaviors, it's easy to say this is what we're looking for. And it will either, like you said earlier, it's either going to attract or repel the right people. And people might— that might sound scary. I don't want to repel people that want to work with me. Yes, you do. Yes, you want the business of your dreams. You have to be able to repel the people that don't belong in it. Yes.

And tell you exactly what studio they're going to.

Yes. I'm just kidding.

You'll never get it from me. You'll never know. But, but, but it is, you do wanna repel them. Don't worry, they'll have a home. They'll find a home.

They will find a home. And then there's nothing wrong with that.

No, there's nothing wrong with that. We just don't want any part of it.

There's a lid for every pot. That's right. That's right.

So what, what do you think is causing most people's culture problem?

Problem?

I hate to say this because it's going to hurt some feelings, but it's usually not the team, right? The owners will want to say it's my team. It's you. It's, you know, well, not you, Lori.

I'm just going around messing you guys all up.

You know, it's, it's us, right? It's us not getting out of our own way and, and not doing the hard shit, really, and blaming it on everyone else. I think the best things happen when you can look inward and really make some changes, because more often than not, I will be working with someone and they will tell me, it's, you know, it's my team, it's my team, it's my team. And then I do like an onsite visit and quickly realize it is kind of the team, but it's more the owner than it is the team. And one thing about me that I never used to be because I was absolutely a people pleaser is I've become incredibly direct. Like I'm known for working with someone like twice on a call and being like, okay, we need to get— you need to get your head out of your ass. So I love this. Yeah, I will just straight up tell people and some people receive it well and some people don't. And those are usually, you know, my people as a consultant that I know who I'm going to want to work with really well is when they're like, you know what? Yeah, I do need to get my head out of my ass. But it's 9 times out of 10. We just gotta make some tweaks.

Mm-hmm.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Mm-hmm.

You don't know what you don't know, but once you know it, it's your job as the business owner and the leader to act on it.

Okay. So how, how are you gonna balance now, um, like strong culture with strong accountability, especially when you are not yet having hard conversations in your business?

Mm-hmm. Well, I think that you have to create the culture and that's something that is like gonna take a little bit of time. Mm-hmm. Right? It's really like every single time you you or your team are able to follow your values, the culture will be built brick by brick.

Yeah.

So in order to have that accountability piece, you have to have a what good looks like, right? We have to have some sort of compass. We have to have, whether it's written down or it's something that people can access online, like it needs to be somewhere where your team can see it and you can see it. And in order to balance the culture and the accountability, they, they really just, they go hand in hand, right? They're one and the same in my, in my opinion. But first you have to establish what does that look like. And having that compass so you can kind of coach back to it constantly is really great. But also your team can coach back to it to you when you're not showing up how you're supposed to be. Or, and my team does that with me, and I appreciate that so much. But they would never be able to do that and hold me accountable if there wasn't something for them to loop back to me.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And sometimes it's internal. I can use it for myself, just like my team might say they want to make one decision and then they think back, I better not do that because this is who I said I would be. I might go to make a decision and be like, mm, that little feeling in your belly, better not do that because this is who I said I would be. And so the accountability and the culture kind of, if you don't have accountability, you won't really have a good culture in my personal opinion. In.

Yeah, you need tracks to run on.

Yes.

So when you go into a business and when you're helping, you know, when you're helping all different businesses, because you, you physically go into them, but you also help people.

I do mostly virtual.

You do mostly virtual.

But if you're wanting me to come there, I will absolutely come there. I actually do a little both. Yeah, I like, I like to travel, and so it kind of is like the best of both worlds for me. But yeah, so I'll do both.

Okay, so when you're doing that, it's like you're kind of starting with, because when you think of the grand picture, like, holy shit, like our, let's say our salon is like, you are knowing that you need help.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like there, somebody's listening right now and maybe they're not even in the frame of mind yet to hire you, but that's a future thing that they really wanna do. Yeah. And they're like, I just wanna, what, what is even a framework that I start with? Because what we're talking about is actually getting something that they go in every day and there's a way that they're, showing up? Is it there's a way that they're speaking to their people? It's a way— what changes on an actual, like, you know, uh, day-to-day basis that they're doing different? Is there something they're following? Is there a framework they're following every day?

Yeah, for the most part. So with my leadership compass that we'll create, it's, um, and we could do this virtually or we could do this in person.

Yep.

Um, first we'll start with usually that survey for your team.

Yeah.

Just so we have something to jump off of. Um, and then we can create, you know, we'll go through a course of like a series of questions so we can kind of see what's important to you. And with that culture poll survey, I can see what's important to your team.

Okay.

Um, some people don't wanna include their team in this, and that's totally fine.

Yeah.

But we like to, I like to use that. Um, and then we're gonna create, you know, 5 to 7 values for your business and they're fun.

Yeah.

Right. They have to be fun or people aren't gonna wanna look at them and live with them every day.

Mm-hmm.

And then from there we're going to look at every single department that you have. Now, some. Beauty businesses only have one department, service providers, and— but they really also have a leadership team. So I can find two at least. And then we're going to create like, literally it's a rubric of exactly what you want your team to do. So, and yourself, right? So under— if you have a value of integrity, right? I do what is right, not what is easy. Now that can be a blanket over many things, right? And then what we do is once we have those established, we're going to give you basically coaching your 15 biggest fires that you're constantly putting out, or the 15 biggest complaints your team has, or you have about your team.

Yeah.

And I'm going to give you coaching language, language to start with, to loop it back to every time you have to hold someone accountable and have a conversation.

Yes.

We're going to loop it all the way back to that value and why it is that we're doing what we're doing. And when you have it like that, it's so much easier to hold people accountable. So what they're doing every day is when situations arise with the team or even with the client. Yes.

Right.

Or themselves or a business decision that they're making or a hiring decision or a firing decision. Everything can get looped back to those values.

Mm-hmm.

So it really just becomes something that's like ingrained in you.

Mm-hmm.

But first it has to be established and that's what we do. We create it. And then I also help people hold, you know, everyone accountable to it, including themselves.

Mm-hmm.

I love that. You just made me think about like when we, when we first trained our dogs.

Uh-huh.

And not comparing people to dogs, but you just reminded me, like, you know, so many people are like, my dog is still bad. Why did it, you know, I took it to this training and did this thing and it's like, mm, you have to be accountable. And it's hard.

Yeah.

It is so hard that when you're, you know, your dog jumps up or does this thing cuz you think it's cute or you're like, ah, it's fine, just this once. But just this once breaks all of the training that you did. Over and over again. So the accountability portion, like, especially with people, is so incredibly challenging because you feel like a bad person at first. Yeah. Especially if your team is not used to seeing you that way.

100%.

They can almost like be like, like make fun of you or talk behind your back, or there's going to be like that period that's really challenging. What would you say to people who— that's going on, they are starting to implement, they're like, look, I've tried this and it just creates such a rift that I don't think I can make it through.

Mm. Okay. So what I would do personally is I would coach them to, at some point before they even started holding people accountable to this, they're gonna sit their entire team down and they're gonna tell their team every pain point that their team is currently experiencing. What's in it for them? Nobody gives two shits about what's gonna help the business. Honestly, they really don't. Yes, they work there and I'm sure people care. What is in it for them? Them. So we are gonna sit down, not me, they're gonna sit down with their entire team and they're gonna say, I know you guys are feeling this, this, this, and this. So here's what I'm changing in order for us to be on this side of things.

Yeah.

And this is what you can expect on the other side of it, which is basically gonna be everything that's the opposite of what they're currently experiencing.

Mm-hmm.

Now you just sold them the story, right? You painted a picture. You gotta get really good at storytelling, but then you have to live it out, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so, and this is what's changing. Mm-hmm. You guys can expect X, Y, and Z, and it might be a little squirrely there for a bit.

Mm-hmm.

And that's okay. We're gonna communicate. I'm a very transparent leader. Mm-hmm. So I like to teach people to be very transparent because I really think that the more that people know, the less they can make up a story in their own head.

Mm-hmm.

And that's basically what you were just saying there. People will start to kind of come up with their own story. And so just be very transparent and walk them through what's going to happen instead of letting it happen and letting them come up with their own narrative to it.

Totally. One of the things my husband and I always say, and that he really taught me, is like, communicate often and early. Like, it is life-changing.

Life-changing.

Whenever something is weird or, you know, something just feels off, or you have to share something, or things aren't going the way that you want, like, go communicate often and early.

And it's, it's hard.

You don't want to. Like, it's the last thing you actually want to do, because when things are tough, you actually want— you go internal. Like, you really want to go internal. You want to protect.

Yeah.

Because it feel whether it is or not, it can— our body can translate it, especially if you, you know, grew up in chaos as like an attack.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like safety, retreat, especially as a woman. We want people to like us. It feels like survival. And so I'm like, no, if you want everything that you said, if you want this outcome, like stay with that North Star, remember why you're doing it. Remember that if you don't do this, you're going to wake up another day of absolutely feeling so frustrated. It's not going to change at all.

Yes.

Staying on that North Star. So, okay, so you have built a super large team. In an industry with really high turnover. We touched on this just a little bit, but tell me some of the things that we can share with people of how to really retain great people.

One of my favorite things to do in my business is, and this is not for everybody but has worked very, very well for me, is it is truly not, uh, me, it's a we. My business was built built, like 610 was truly built collectively. Every person who still works there or doesn't work there that has even, even our guests make suggestions and we implement their suggestions. And so there's fingerprints of everybody all over our business that somebody had an idea and we have created that idea. And that could be whether it could be like an internal thing or something that the guest is experiencing. Or I mean, in my first location, one of my clients actually picked out my color scheme. I had no idea what to be, you know, the colors to be. The other one picked out our logo. Right. And so I think for me, it's just in the industry, especially in the hair industry, people want to go independent because they believe that they can do it better and they don't think that everything's going in the direction that It should be right, because they don't understand what's going on. And so I believe the more that you can give them that autonomy to feel like they have some skin, it gives them skin in the game, but also like they can see their ideas coming to fruition. Right. It's so, so important to take people's feedback, whether like you got to get good at taking feedback, but also then doing something with it. And I think that's something that has really, really helped me retain some really amazing team members because I, I really allow them to help me create the business of their dreams too, to work in.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And I, I really enjoy that. I really do.

So what does sustainable success actually look like for you now?

I'm still, it's a work in progress. It's a work in progress. I think for me, the, what is really giving me that success that I can sustain is I had to create a leadership team. Mm-hmm. And in order to create a leadership team, we had to have the culture in place.

Mm-hmm.

We had to have a framework attached that people— I can teach people in my business who are leaders to follow.

Mm-hmm.

Um, because now I'm able to come, you know, all the way here and do this podcast.

Yeah.

So my business is literally running completely without me. Mm-hmm. And it is one of the most incredible things. So that's something that I think I don't look at very often and think, wow, that's really cool. But that has helped me be able to be the best version of myself for my business because I'm able to like leave it a little bit, right? It's in its like young adult years, my business, which is God bless, thank God that we are there. But it's really having that leadership team who can take care of everyone. But even when I say leadership team, that doesn't even have to be someone with the title leader. There are leaders in my business. Business because they've been around for so long or they take our values so seriously that things don't slip through the crack because they, they will glue it back together. Right. And they will hold it together. But the other piece of that is trying to bring my nervous system back to like, we started this.

We'll work on that together.

Yeah. I'm, I'm like, can we like, somebody needs to teach a course on this. I'm sure there is one.

Yeah.

But for entrepreneurs. Who've been in the chaos for too long.

It might be like a little surgery, like a removal of part of our brain.

That works. I'm down for that too.

I'm open to that.

Yeah, because I am like desperately trying to figure that out. And once I can get that, I'm getting there. But once I can get that together, I really feel like it'll help me be even more, you know, have that sustainable success. But for right now, we're going with me being able to leave here and there and it's, it's really nice.

We'll get Jamie Cees on the podcast.

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

We'll just have her sit here. 100%. 100%. Yes, we probably wouldn't be talking much.

She'd be like, no, no, I like it, I'm down for that.

Oh, okay. Well, something that I, um, that's really incredible about you is you do take time to go and work on your business, not just in your business. You're in our Elite Mastermind, and when you're in that room, a lot of people gravitate towards you because there is, you know, when people start really growing their business and wanting to grow their business, there is a lot of chaos, and you do have systems and you are one of the people who a lot of people look to and you kind of calm the room down. So even though your nervous system might feel that way, I feel like in your presence you also kind of help us just get really focused and realize like, oh, this is what's missing. Like you guys, there's an answer for why your business is not working the way that you want.

Mm-hmm.

Like you said, a lot of times, yes, it's you, but there are things that you can go and work on.

Yeah.

And I love that you've created a business where you can get away, like you have flown here.

Mm-hmm.

So that you could leave your business. You do fly to the mastermind a few times a year and go work on your business as well. Why do you think that piece is important?

Oh, well, first of all, with the, the mastermind, it is— I needed to get around people that understood me.

Mm-hmm.

Right. And I think that I struggled for a while there because I wanted people in my current life to understand me and they just don't. And that's, that's okay.

And they don't have to.

They don't have to. So once I kind of got into this group, I really felt very seen and like good for the soul. Yeah, like, so it's so important to come to these events because of that, that first piece. But for me, it's like never stop learning, never stop growing. I was with an incredible coaching company that was industry specific for like 4 and a half years, and they're just so amazing and I love them. And I really, truly wouldn't have had the business I have today if it wasn't for them. Um, but I, I outgrew that company and when I went to leave, um, the owner was like, it's, it's been time. But I didn't know what else to do.

Yeah.

And I, I found you guys and I really encourage to like sometimes when you're in an industry specific group, sometimes you gotta get out of that.

Yeah.

Because it allows you to almost like, my business is so unique. Yes, your business is unique. Yes, your industry is unique. Think, but really all business is similar. And they really are.

Yes.

And sometimes people from different industries can give you that creative idea that is going to help you get out of the weeds.

Yeah. What that your people are not doing. Like, yes, I've been so in the, you know, before this, digital courses, events, all those things. And when I got around other people, I was like, wait a minute, we don't do any of that, but it can absolutely apply.

Yes.

Yeah, I, I love that you're a huge learner. Um, okay, so you are offering, you're offering our listeners something. What is that?

Yes, I am giving away to 5 different people. I'm gonna give away the leadership compass that we've been talking about. Amazing. Yes. I'm really excited. Again, it has fully changed my business. Yes. And I've watched it change so many other businesses because that feeling of going to work every day and just feeling like it is going to take over. Mm-hmm. Well, it is taking over.

Yeah.

Um, and you don't know what to do and your team's not listening and your personal life is is down the drain. This is it. Like, it will change your life if you have, you know, that North Star and something to guide you through business and how to hold people accountable, including yourself.

Okay, so what do they need to do?

So they're gonna go to—

because it's worth $999.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's good.

It's really good. It's one of my favorite things that I do with my consulting.

I love that.

So yeah, they're gonna go to my Instagram, which is hbic. SIXTEN, and that's spelled out S-I-X-T-E-N. And they are going to DM me the word gift.

Amazing. You guys go and do that. The amount of people that I've given away free stuff to that I'm like, nobody's really doing this. Go and do it. You're probably going to get a free gift. Yeah, go and check it out.

Absolutely.

So I'm so— that is like so generous of you. And working with you for these people will be such a huge gift. And is it beauty specific or is this any—

anybody can really do it. If you have a team that you need to, you know, those things are what you're feeling that we're talking about, I think it would be perfect for you.

Okay, amazing. Yeah, well, I'm so grateful for you. And you guys, I have linked everything up in the show notes, including where you can go follow her so you can go see where you can message her. Um, and definitely just go check her out and enter. Go DM her. And I'm so grateful for you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. This is amazing.

I appreciate it. So fun. And you guys, until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.