Kevin Dahlstrom tore his triceps tendon and faces six months away from rock climbing, his core identity. He and Mike Brown discuss building a life with multiple pursuits so no single loss breaks you, and the value of "weaponized gratitude" that sits with pain before finding genuine thanks.
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Hey everybody, welcome to The Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, joined by a dear friend and member of my inner circle, Kevin Dahlstrom. And the whole idea behind this show is that, that we just hit record on the conversations we'd be having anyway. Uh, iron sharpens iron. We like to bounce ideas off of each other. Kevin has had, uh, a little bit of a rough go. He, he, he sustained an injury to his elbow requiring surgery and You know, for those of you who don't know, I'm sure there's not anybody listening that doesn't know, Kevin likes rock climbing. Not just likes rock climbing, like this is a central—
I mentioned that, Mike.
Yeah. And you're, and you're out of the game for 6 months. So that is obviously a devastating injury, not just from the physical perspective, but to your mental health, right? Rock climbing is so central to that. So, so how do you deal with an injury like this? And, and let's just start there.
Well, first of all, um, I have to say that, um, every morning when I get up, I look at the meetings that are on my calendar. And this morning I had two meetings on my calendar. One was a call with a CEO friend of mine, and the other was this. And it's so awesome to just like, both of those things I genuinely looked forward to, like, For, for those who listen, like one of the ideas behind this show, which we call The Inner Circle, is these literally are the conversations Mike and I have anyway, and we just hit the record button. But I highly recommend that you find someone or a small group of people, build an inner circle and have these conversations because it does, iron does sharpen our iron. It sh— it sharpens my thinking. I leave inspired every, these are energizing conversations, so. That said, yes, I'm in a period of life that kind of sucks right now. Uh, so just so everybody knows, um, I was in Mexico in February on a climbing trip in a pretty remote area of northern Mexico. I took a fall on a, actually an easy climb because a foothold broke, uh, smashed my right arm into a rock. Uh, I knew it was injured immediately. Uh, I finished the trip. I couldn't climb, but I just hung around in Mexico. Um, riding and belaying my friend. It seemed to start healing. So over the course of the next few weeks, it started healing. I eased back into climbing, got back nearly to where I was before. I was on, um, a climb in the Flatirons here in Boulder. On the last move, I heard a loud ripping sound and knew it was not good. Got an MRI, fully detached tricep, distal tricep tendon, one of the worst injuries actually in orthopedics, it turns out. Because, um, the tendon needs to be reattached and heal back to the bone, which is very slow. Had surgery 3 weeks ago and it's a long road ahead. I mean, 6 months is on the short end of like when I can start doing sort of light exercise. It's gonna be tough. And I, and as you alluded to, it's like the physical part is actually the easy part. Like pain doesn't bother me. Rehab, I'm good at rehab. It's the mental shift. And you know, as Mike was sort of jokingly alluding to, climbing is a huge part of my identity. I mean, when I did my reboot back in 2018 and moved to Boulder, you know, it was kind of to refocus and gorge on climbing, which I, 8 years later, am still doing. And so, uh, you know, I've put a lot of thought, as I always do, into like, what are the things I've learned from this? Because actually, despite what I just said, I'm not at all— my friends said, oh my God, Kevin is going to be a wreck. Uh, I don't want to be around. He's going to be miserable. And actually it's not as bad as you might think. And I think, um, there's a few reasons for that. And so the first thing I'd say is, um, Mike, one of the things that you've said that I repeat to everybody, and it's the simplest concept in the world, but it's so powerful, is that I can hold two ideas at the same time that seem to be in conflict. And so I think there's a tendency, like when you talk about mindset and how do you deal with adversity, there's a tendency to say, well, I'm gonna turn lemons into lemonade. I'm gonna find a silver lining. There is a lot of validity in that. I think you do need to look for like, what's the opportunity that this presents? And I'll get to that in a second. That can be true. And at the same time, you can just embrace the fact that some things just suck. Um, and. It is what it is. Like, that acceptance for me has been important. It's like, look, I can be pissed off, I can complain about it, which trust me, I've done plenty of that. But, but at the end of the day, like, it doesn't change anything. Like, it is what it is. I'm on a 6-month journey and it's just gonna suck for a while because I'm being stripped of a little bit of my identity. I'm being stripped of the thing, um, that I love. So I think that's the first thing is like, I don't like it when people take this idea of like, um, you know, finding a silver lining to a performative extent where, look, yes, have a positive attitude, but also it's okay to just say that it sucks.
I call this weaponized gratitude, right? Oh, interesting. When we have an adverse experience, you know, people love to say like, look, find, find that silver lining, find the gratitude for, for what's happened to you. Everything happens for a reason. And yes, of course, all of that is true. Yeah. But really what you're doing, if you don't actually allow yourself to feel the pain and just sit with the fact that, man, some things really suck and I'm not happy about this and it sucks. Like, you have to let yourself actually feel that to arrive at the gratitude. The gratitude naturally arises on the backside. And what I've learned through several adverse experience experiences is that you can't rush gratitude. You can't force gratitude when you're in the middle of the shit, right? So even though you know intellectually that eventually I'll get to gratitude about this, I think there's something really important about just letting yourself feel the pain in the middle of the experience and just recognizing like, this sucks and I don't like this.
Yes, that's a great insight. It's like, yeah, I think there will be plenty of gratitude on the back end. But it, but, and I can look for it now and I already do see bits of it, which I'll get to. But yeah, just embracing and letting, letting all the feelings happen. Just, you know, it does suck. It's painful and there will be something to be learned out of it at some point. But right now, uh, it's probably not, not where the lessons are happening.
Yeah, definitely. Okay. So, so you're letting yourself kind of, kind of feel the pain, but it's, it's not as bad as you thought. What does that mean?
Yeah. Um, well, I think the, the second lesson I've learned is a confirmation of something that is like one of my core beliefs, which is that everyone needs quests. And I define a quest as something that, um, you do for its own sake simply because it brings you joy and it can take a lot of different forms. So obviously for me, rock climbing is one, you know, it can be sailing, it can be, You know, uh, tracking animals in Africa as you just did last, last week. Yeah. But we all need quests. And one thing that's been a little bit sort of almost like delightful insight from this experience has been, you know, I was robbed of a big part of my identity in this outdoor activity, rock climbing, and the, the community around that. But it turns out that I have so many quests. I have more quests than time. And so filling my time is the least of my concerns. So, you know, I, I joked with some of my friends, you know, I've, I'm, I'm involved in a few business ventures and you know, now I actually have time to devote to them. Like I, I gained back 30 hours that I can put into business stuff that I'm actually really interested in. Also, I like to write, and so now I have more time to write. My wife and I like to hike 14ers. Um, which are 14,000-foot peaks in Colorado. We just like to hike in general. And so I'm spending more time with my wife. I'm more available for my kids to go do crazy quests with them. So I think this for me has highlighted the importance of just having a never-ending list of quests that you want to get to, or in a way it's almost like living a curious life where no matter what is taken from me, you know, as long as I have like some basis of health, right? So I lost my arm, but my brain still works. The rest of my body still works. And so I've got these, this endless number of quests that I can pursue.
And this really gets back to one of both of our foundational ideas that wealth is multidimensional, meaning we want to cultivate different areas of our life to create wealth. Because if one area drops out, you still have all these other ones to fall back on. And so you don't have to have all the areas all the time. Uh, and, and it actually makes you antifragile, right? Like if you build this multidimensional identity and, and, and have a bunch of different quests, if one of them gets taken away, you've still got plenty of things to, to, to fill your time and mind and, and, and be excited about.
Amen. And what's funny is I preached about that for years, but I had never really been tested on it, you know, and, and now I'm tested on it. Like, you know, uh, my kind of, in some ways, primary passion has been taken away. And, you know, Antifragile, Bulletproof, whatever. But I think the takeaway for me is you wanna build a life so that there's no one kill shot that takes you out. And of course, as Mike and I both talk about a lot, like the classic example is the cliché of, you know, the workaholic business guy who builds his entire identity around their work. And when that gets taken away, you know, they have nothing. And I've, you know, the examples are countless out there of guys who've had incredibly quote unquote successful careers, but ultimately that doesn't last forever. And what's next? Or God forbid it gets taken away from you. Um, you, you know, something bad happens in the business or, you know,, you have to pivot for personal reasons, what, what then?
And the whole idea around being multidimensional is that it doesn't shatter your entire identity, right? Because there's the bad thing that happens, but then the identity shatter is actually even worse. And so like, how do I build my life in such a way that no one area is going to completely shatter my identity?
Yes. So that's a positive already is that You know, I mean, I won't lie, it stings to, to, to lose an arm when you're, you know, active and use that arm a lot. You know, my day-to-day life is still pretty darn great. In fact, I was, um, I was writing something this morning that I'll, I'll read, which is like, you know, I, I wrote, this is, this is, gives you some insight in my writing practice. I write what I call stubs, which are like ideas that become articles or, or ex posts or whatever. On this one I wrote, I climbed the ladder all the way to the top only to realize all I really wanted was good coffee, unhurried mornings, an inspiring place to live, time with family and friends, and sunshine and time outside. And I think, you know, those are pretty simple things and I'm still able to do all of those things. The specifics around rock climbing, that can't, can't do it for now. Um, but I can still have. You know, the basic simple life that I want.
Yeah, that's, that's— I mean, I think that's a profound insight, right? I mean, the best things in life really are free, or really expensive, as Coco Chanel says. But yes, you know, those things that, that you just listed don't cost you anything, and they're, they're available at any given time. And, and, and if you, if you focus on those things, that is, that's how you become antifragile, right? Like Like slow coffee. Now you have a lot more slow coffee opportunities.
I have very, uh, casual slow mornings, which I love, by the way. Like, I, I don't know if you're this way, Mike, but you know, on a, on a good day, my morning routine can extend to 11:00 AM easily. And that's a huge privilege. I've worked my whole life to be able to have that privilege, but it's freaking awesome. And, and that's possible partly because I'm not rushing out the door to go rock climbing.
Yeah, definitely. And same. I mean, I don't schedule calls before 10. I wake up, I meditate, I have slow coffee, I do some reading. And the cool thing about that is, yes, it's enjoyable, but it also sets me up to do better work and focus better later in the day rather than, you know, and look, you got to find your own deal. Some people like to wake up and work first.
Yeah.
But I'm a huge proponent of easing into the day.
All right, well, the, the third insight I, I wanna cover is a little bit heavier and, um, and this might be useful for, for those of you who are listening, which is that, um, in some ways when something like this happens, it's a reality check on what's important and, and also like how unimportant I am, we all are. You know, I told my wife the other day on a walk, that, you know, um, I stopped, like, I, my life got disrupted by this injury in a pretty big way. Like it changed my, my, my day-to-day life pretty profoundly. Guess what though? The rest of the world just moves on. Like, and it's a little bit humbling to be honest. Like, you know, shouldn't everyone care about me and shouldn't everybody be changing their lives because Kevin got injured? That is like almost an implicit feeling we have. And the wor— the truth is the world is sort of coldly indifferent to us. And I think the reality check there is that, you know, set your priorities accordingly. Cuz I will tell you, like I, I'm, um, whether I rock climb or not, whether I show up for work or not, the truth is the world doesn't care, but the one The only area of my life where I am important is with my family. Mm-hmm. And so what are you optimizing for, or how are you optimizing your life? You know, an example I like to give is like, I have friends who run companies and they don't take vacations because they feel like they can't, the business can't survive without them. And the truth is you're not that important. Like I always say, like any CEO, could disappear tomorrow, not only would the business be just fine, but a year from now they'd be largely forgotten. And that's a humbling thing to recognize.
Yeah. And it does force perspective. If most of the day-to-day shit that we fill our time with is not going to be important in a year, then what are you going to do that is important in a year? And so, so What is that for you? Like, what, like, what, what's emerging for you as you're having to sit with this?
This is a great question. I want to bounce it back at you after I answer it, but I've thought about it and ultimately, like beyond family, I don't think there is much. Like we can pretend that certain things are super important and, you know, maybe it's family and then somehow like making a positive dent in the world somehow, but I think that's the beauty of it is like being humbled by realizing like most of the world just doesn't care about what you're doing day to day or, um, and things that we feel like are really important parts of our lives just really aren't. But so what is really important? I think it's like that, those relationships you have with your family, maybe your close friends, and then like whatever gift you can give to the world. I don't know. How would you answer that?
I mean, same thing that, that is. Uh, for me, and by the way, you know, I didn't, I didn't know this when I, when I set out to write the book. Um, but it has, this process really has given me a sense to, uh, of something greater than myself. Uh, because it's something that's lasting. And, and I, and I, I think we talked about this before, like I actually considered publishing it anonymously because I wanted it to be something that could last beyond me. I didn't want it to be about me. It's really, you know, outside of raising my kids, you know, being married to my partner. I do think it's one of the first things that I've really poured myself into that could actually outlast me. And I really don't, I don't like this idea of legacy. I think people talk about legacy a lot, and I think legacy tends to be self-centered or selfish, like putting your name on a building at the university. Right? Those kids in 20 years walking by that building aren't going to be like, oh, I wonder who that guy was. Yeah. Like it's such an ego thing.
Thank God for Mike Brown.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, so, so legacy, I think, I think tends to be, uh, overweight. I think it tends to be sort of a narcissistic, uh, endeavor. I always try to focus on impact over legacy. What can I do now during my lifetime that's going to impact people versus what's going to happen when I'm dead? This book has sort of made me, made me rethink that a little bit and go, oh wow, like, like, you know, I'm not so arrogant to believe that this will definitely be read in 100 years, but it could be. Right. And that was really the intention I set out with. Like, can I write something that is both personal, but also universal enough that, you know, it might be read 100 or 50 years from now. And that's a really cool, really cool thing to connect to.
Yeah. And I think, you know, what I'm really saying here is, you know, in the scope of a lifetime, you know, this little arm injury hopefully is not, is just going to be a blip on the radar, but it has forced me to just revisit the existential questions around like, what are we here for? And for me, you know, um, my kids. Are like ultimate in some ways, like the ultimate product. And hopefully they will live, you know, far beyond me and be a reflection in some ways of my values and, and who I was. Um, I think your book is a great example of like, it's something tangible that represents your heart that, you know, regardless of whether 1,000 people read it or 10 million people read it, it will live on and will impact, you know, at least one person. Um, those are the things that. That really matter. And I think, you know, we've talked about this on previous episodes is I'm a consummate achiever. I think you sort of are not too far off that, you know, and I've achieved a lot in the business world. Then I went on to achieve a lot in the rock climbing world. And guess what that all adds up to, Mike? Not a lot. Not a lot. There's things I'm proud of that I've done, and those are part of who I am, but Uh, I think this is just a reminder to like double down on the things that really matter. And, you know, it's funny how like we only sort of, we only really recognize this when we're forced to, like in your case, you know, you took a trip to Africa and, you know, just such, such a different environment that you were forced to like think about things in a completely new way. And same thing, honestly, like with an injury like this is like, oh, you're forced to slow down and like. Think about what really matters.
I was having an amazing conversation with a friend yesterday. He's coming out of the backside of a pretty tough time, you know, went through some business hardships and all of a sudden, like, everything is falling into place. It's unlocking. And the thing that we brought out in the conversation was that wouldn't have been available had he not gone through the trough. Right. And so The contrast of experience is actually what allows us to be human and live. Like, if everything was always up and to the right, it would actually start to become so normalized, we wouldn't have the experience. And so, you know, all the way back to this gratitude piece, you don't have to be grateful in the moment, but there will be a, there will be a time when you look back on this and go, wow, like what an impactful trough that I was forced to go through. It wasn't painful. I don't want to go through it again., but it actually forces this reset and, and connection to something better, bigger.
Yeah. Well, hopefully, uh, something we said today will resonate with, with, um, one of you, because one thing that's guaranteed is that every single person listening to this will face a similar hardship, whether it's, you know, you lose an arm like I did, or, you know, something, um, happens at work or it's a personal situation. And, you know, in some ways it's inevitable and you can't control whether it happens, What you can control is how you react to it. And, you know, I think the best we can do is like, yes, it still sucks, right? Doesn't mean it's great. Um, but inevitably it can be a catalyst for something new and different. So, um, that's, I think that's the mindset.
That's it. Well, uh, thanks for sharing your journey. I can't wait to see what emerges from this and, uh, heal soon, my friend.
Thank you, my friend.
All right. See you guys next time.
