When You Get What You Want and It Changes Nothing

Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, joined by a member of my inner circle, Kevin Dahlstrom. And today's conversation came as, as most of these do, which is we were debating a topic and we said we should probably just hit record. Uh, and that, and that topic is, uh, David Brooks's Second Mountain. Uh, it's, it's a book, uh, Kevin and I both read and enjoyed. It's a, it's a very popular concept, especially. In entrepreneur circles, post-exit founders, you know, building for achievement, then they, they go on to climb a, a more significant second mountain. So Kevin, what are your thoughts on The Second Mountain? And, uh, we'll go from there.

Yeah. So first of all, for the listeners, um, I think I can explain the basic concept from the book pretty quickly. So, you know, David Brooks said that the first mountain is really what we think of as conventional achievement, right? It's like, career success, status, wealth, however you want to measure it. Um, it's, you know, most of what society would define as success. And his contention is that what happens very commonly, and certainly happened to me, I think happened to you, Mike, is we climb that mountain, we get to the summit, and we realize, oh, there's nothing here. I climbed the wrong mountain, but there's that other mountain that I need to climb. And then, um, what Brooks contends then is the second mountain is so like the first mountain. Um, you know, by definition is sort of self-centered. Um, he refers to it as like the Instagram life or insecure overachievement. And the second mountain is when you shift from being self-centered to being other-centered. So in other words, more purpose-driven. So you kind of, you don't necessarily do different things, but you reframe everything. And, um, this is a concept that I've thought about a lot because I've lived it. Like I, I climbed the classic first mountain and then realized I was, you know, one of my favorite quotes is from Yvon Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia, famous rock climber. He said, you know, when you reach the summit, it turns out there's nothing there and it's literally and metaphorically true. And so, you know, then you go to climb this second mountain. Now I'm, I'm going to drop a little hint at kind of my take on this and then I'll turn it back over to you. I've actually concluded that David Brooks, um, model is sort of incomplete. I actually don't think most people, um, who reach the top of the first mountain, um, I don't think the second mountain ends up— I think it's very hard to pivot when you're climbing your second mountain toward like this other-centered life. I think it is sort of the goal to live in service of others. I don't think that's the second. I think there might be a few mountains in there. So I'll pause there and let you give your take on it.

Yeah. I mean, this is a framework that, that one of, one of my dear friends and teachers, Philip McKernan, often uses. He calls the service-based mountain the third mountain. And, and I tend to agree with him because I think, and this has been true for me, is the second mountain was actually self. So the first mountain is external success, external validation. And then the second mountain tends to be turning inward and going, okay, that didn't work. What's going to work. And that mountain, I think, has to be climbed before you can actually truly turn toward the third mountain and be of service. Because, and the analogy I like to use is, is dirty to clean fuel, right? The, the external validation achievement mountain, mountain one, is, is fueled by dirty fuel. It's, it's by not enoughness, by, uh, you know, looking in comparison to others to define success. If you don't dive into your internal world and figure out where that's coming from and start to heal it, you're going to turn the second mountain into the same thing, but in more spiritual robes. And this happens all the time, right? It's like people look altruistic or, or, you know, they say they're purpose-driven. Um, but there's really still dirty fuel run— running underneath there. So they've just dressed up their achievement mountain in new clothes and it looks better on the surface, but it's the same fuel running underneath.

That is exactly what happened to me. And it's funny, like you and I were joking earlier that we derive our, our points of view from lived experience and first principles. And, um, has to ring true for what I've experienced and what I've observed from others. And that definitely rings true. I mean, I think, you know, if you recast it as 3 mountains, just to kind of partially restate what you said, like first mountain about external success, or I would call it maybe society's definition of success. You know, I did that for many, many years, you know, climbed the corporate ladder, made it essentially all the way to the top. This isn't really all it's cracked up to be. Second Mountain, as you said, the funny thing is you think you're really pivoting, but you're just doing, it's a different type of, of achievement, I guess is, is how I would put it. And I made a note where I said, um, in the Second Mountain, so if the First Mountain is about con— conventional ambition as society would define it. The second mountain is still about ambition. It's just unconventional. So my version of that was I pivoted to like, I'm going to punch out of the corporate world, move to Boulder, Colorado, and spend all my time rock climbing. Well, it was a very similar mountain, actually, just focused on things that truly mean something to me, which is, to be clear, a huge—

it's a better mountain.

Better, way better mountain, but actually it's funny, Mike, because I just became an empty nester, you know, this year. And I'm kind of, you know, I'm kind of pausing to reflect and look around. Uh, and I've realized exactly what you said that, oh, I climbed, you know, it's been a great mountain for the past 8 years, but in some ways I'm starting to put my eye on the third mountain. And honestly, I, I have some ideas of what that looks like. I'm not even sure that mountain will quite be the living in service mountain. I might have a mountain range to climb, uh, before I get there, but I'll pause there. And is that, does that, does that ring true? What I described, like my own experience, does that ring true for what you've experienced?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, um, you know, I had the exit. I found it was empty. I burned my entire life down, both consciously and unconsciously, because I realized it didn't work. And then I went deep down the personal development and spiritual rabbit hole, but at the beginning I was still treating it as achievement-based fuel, right? Like I was like, well, if I'm going to be doing personal development and spirituality, I'm going to be the best at personal development. Right. Um, and the cool thing about that process is, is that it worked. Like I was relentless in my pursuit and then those, those things, those stories, those, that, that dirty fuel actually started to loosen its grip. So the, so the personal development part actually worked. And the other thing I would say is that you don't actually have to delay service until you've like completed the work on yourself, right? Like I, I started coaching many years ago and it's not like I wasn't serving those clients. You know, back in 2019 and 2020, I was still doing the thing. So it's, it's, it's a spectrum. It's not like an on-off switch. It's not a, it's not a complete binary.

How would you describe, like, so, so to me, it's very clear in my mind that like I climbed the classic achievement mountain. I have now climbed, recently summited the unconventional achievement mountain. Um, and now I'm, I've got some thoughts on what the next mountain looks like, but what, what mountain are you on?

Yeah. I mean, look, this for me, I mean, it really is. I know, I know it's cliché, but I say in my book, like the day you become truly wealthy is the day you realize it's not about you. And what drives me is that I get up every day and I see the work that I'm doing have impact in people's lives. And the amazing thing about that is that it also benefits me. Right. I think one of the bad pieces of advice that gets repeated so often, people think it's truth is follow your passion and you'll never work a day in your life. Uh, it's not true, right? There's still, there's still parts of the job that feel like work, no matter how much you love your job. And let's be honest, right? Like I wouldn't do what I'm doing if I wasn't also getting paid handsomely for it. Like I love the work, but instead of it being empty, Like it really is for me, uh, about teaching what I've learned in a way that can land with other people. So maybe they can just shortcut the pain just a little bit. And the more you stack those wins, the more, that's where the, that's where the view is no longer empty, right? Because it's not about what I did for myself. It's like, hey, I get to inject myself into one little place in someone's life in a window in their life. And then I watched them start to flourish. And by the way, they're the ones doing the work, right? I'm, I'm providing sort of the, the mirror, the interjection, like, and, and they're the ones doing the work, but that actually feels way better than anything I accomplished from a business or external validation sense.

Clean fuel. Um, and I feel like a lot of my fuel is clean now, but, um, and, and I'm going to share like some early thinking on kind of where I am in my life. Um, and like looking, cause like climbed these very clear first couple of mountains, uh, based on achievement. And now, and by the way, an idea that's related to this that I've been toying with a lot is, um, I think it actually might be healthy to do a reset, reboot, pivot every 8 to 10 years. That feels like kind of the natural rhythm. Um, as amazing as our life is here in Boulder, my wife and I are having that discussion right now about like, what would the radical version of our next phase look like? And honestly, that's a very fun discussion to have. Um, but it very much plays into this, like, what mountain are you choosing to climb? And I'm in a period of life where, um, I think I am willing to relinquish. I mean, look, I'm a, I'm as much of an achiever as you'll ever meet. But I think I'm ready finally at age 55 to start relinquishing some of my orientation toward achievement, um, and, and focus more on a state of being. And that state of being for me, I think, looks like, um, simplicity, like peace, simplicity, less, not more. And so maybe that is before I even get to like this, this, um, state of like You know, service, which I think is very admirable. I'm not sure I'm there yet. And last thing I'll say, and these are all kind of random thoughts, hopefully they stimulate thinking for our listeners, is, is, um, I mentioned funny jokingly earlier, like maybe it's not a fixed number of mountains, but a mountain range. And maybe, um, to tie into a topic we talked about, uh, um, a couple hours ago, maybe the actual. The whole ballgame is in the climbing, not the summits, no matter whether it's 2 summits, 3 summits, 10 summits. It's the climbing itself and the refinement that happens. You mentioned to me, uh, in private that, you know, about how like you, you've just almost finished a book and you had this killer line where you said, I became a writer. Like, that's the whole ballgame. That is the, not the mountain of finishing the book. It's the climbing and maybe continuing to climb.

Yeah. I mean, I think what you're pointing to is, is, um, something I think about often, which is holding paradox, right? Which is yes, this, this phase of my life is service-oriented, right? And I'm included in there too. And, and I still have human desires, right? Like I, I want my stuff to do well. I, I, you want the fame and the money and all the things that drive achievement-based humans. What I like to think about is like, what's the flavor of the fuel, right? It's not clean fuel or dirty fuel. It's what's the mixture, right? Because the reality is like, you're never going to not be human. And can I allow myself to hold the human desire with an open palm, right? Like, yes, I want the book and my work to reach millions of people. And the predominant flavor is because I think it can help people. Like that's the predominant flavor of why I do what I do. And there's the human part and neither of those have to resolve to be true. Right. They both get to be there. And, and because I'm doing it with that flavor, I can hold the outcome with an open palm, which is, which is what you're talking about, right? Is like, I'm not attached. I haven't attached to my identity to how well the how many copies it sells or how many followers I have, right? Those things are nice validation signals, but it's what's the flavor of the mountain.

Yeah. And I think, um, you know, as we're thinking through this in real time, I think, um, maybe for me, the model is less about like, you know, very clear and distinct phases that, you know, we use mountains as a metaphor for and more about just iteration. Where you're constantly running on cleaner and cleaner fuel. Because I will say, and I'm, this is not a brag in any way. In fact, it kind of troubles me in a way that, um, I'm a little older than you. I'm 55. I have a lot of trouble being motivated by money in any way. And it actually scares me because, because it's like, am I losing my edge? But I just can't fake it anymore. I can't run on dirty fuel anymore, man. And so maybe what this process really is, is like you're running on cleaner and cleaner fuel. I don't, I don't know.

Yeah. Well, and one of the big fears that people have, uh, when they start this work is like, what if I lose my edge? It's actually, it's actually something I hear on discovery calls with potential clients all the time. And my answer is always the same, which is if your edge is fueled by darkness, like you'll probably lose it and what you build in its place. May not burn as hot. And that is a confronting thing because, you know, being driven by lack is a powerful motivator, you know, being driven by the fear of not being enough and the fear of failure like that. It absolutely gets shit done, right? It's very effective. And this, like what I've found in this phase of my life, you know, as I've let go of and healed a lot of that dirty fuel, is that it is harder. Uh, the motivation that used to be there, the discipline that used to be there, isn't on tap anymore, right? I can't use negative self-talk and, you know, I can't— I actually don't have that, that motor anymore.

And you don't have to scramble to pay the bills.

And I don't have— exactly, like, I have enough. And, and so it's quieter, right? It's, it's out of devotion rather than discipline. And the reality is like, I haven't found the same gear of intensity. And I think that's okay. At least it's okay for me right now.

Yeah. I'd say not only is it okay, it might be the healthiest path. And cause I feel that, man, like I, you know, as someone who started a business, you know, about a year ago and I still have passion for it, but sometimes I actually find myself wishing like, I wish I was the 30-year-old version of myself who would like stay up till 2 in the morning every night, just grinding on this thing. I just don't have that anymore. And, you know, rather than viewing it as like losing your edge or a character flaw, I think it's maybe like okay to say, well, that's actually kind of the goal is I like that metaphor you used of like, it may not burn as hot anymore, but I think in In some ways where I'm headed is like to be on a low simmer of just being. And that doesn't mean I'm not going to do hard things or have big ambition. It just means I'm going to approach it in a different way.

And that's the reward, the bonus, right? Is the peace, because the cost of dirty fuel is that constant background hum of lack and not enoughness. And when that starts to get released, peace is what remains on the other side of that. And so yeah, it may not look the same as it did in your 30s, but the experience, the felt experience of climbing the mountain, uh, is a lot more enjoyable because you don't have that loop running.

Okay. Maybe one more question and then we'll wrap this up. But this is one that I get asked actually a lot and I don't, I actually don't know the answer to it. So maybe you've probably faced, heard this question a bunch. It's like, do you have to climb the first mountain to get to this place of peace. And I don't know, man. What do you, what do you think?

Yeah, I, uh, same, right? Like, because it's, it's, you can't tell the person on the climb that, uh, you know, like the famous Jim Carrey quote, like, I, I hope everyone becomes rich and famous to find out that being rich and famous is not the answer. Like, man, a high achiever is going to find out anyway. Like, let me, let me just test that, uh, anyway. And I don't want to ever rob anybody of the chase. And so, you know, I do think there is some element of having to find out for yourself. The question is, how far do you go, right? How many companies do you start? Like, do you miss all the dinners and miss your kid's childhood before you actually find out the answer? Um, and that is the question, right? It's like, that's what I think is more relevant is like all of us. Have hit a goal at some point in our life that we said would make us happy and it didn't, right? So how many times are we going to keep hitting that lever before we, before we actually come to the answer?

Yeah. How many, how many different forms of achievement do we need to win at before we realize that that's not the game? You know, it's so the way I always answer it is, and I think this is the best answer I've come up with, is, is that there are seasons of life and I think there probably is a season where there's a lot of benefit to charging hard, learning the hard lessons, summiting that first mountain, seeing for yourself that Yvon Chouinard was right. There's really not much up there on the summit, uh, literally and metaphorically. Uh, the problem that I see though is seasons have an end. And, uh, I worked with a ton of guys in, in the C-suite in corporate America. Who will live in one season their entire life. And the, you know, the gift that really was bestowed upon me by, by discovering rock climbing was I saw that there was a different way and that, um, that brought a season to an end that, uh, and I'm glad it did. That was the first mountain for me. And, um, maybe I'm at a point where another season is coming to it and it kind of feels that way. I don't know what, I don't, I don't know what that looks like yet, but it's, sir, it's fun to think about.

Well, and the fun is in the not knowing, right? Like if, if we had our whole lives planned out, it'd be kind of boring. So I think there's something beautiful about being in a place in your life where you can go, I don't even know what's next and how fun.

Yeah. I think, you know, final comment on this is like, yeah, I think, and, and that it does create a certain amount of fear, but then trying to just embrace that. Cause it's also, like you said, it's, it's super exciting to think about. Infinite possibilities. And, um, my new thing, by the way, which I've told you is like, you know, I'm big on like define and align, right? Like define your end state and then align your actions with it. But I've added a third piece to my puzzle, which is then consider like the radical version of alignment. What would that look like? And that's a really fun exercise that my wife and I are going through right now. Like where there's nothing's off the table, right? It's like, I kind of have a sense of the state of being I want to achieve. How could we get there, like, in the most radical way possible? And then maybe you peel back from that, but it's a, it's a really fun exercise.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, uh, test and iterate. It's literally operationalizing fuck around and find out.

Yes, sir. That's right. Yeah. Cool, man. This is a, yeah, big thinking and fun, fun discussion.

Definitely a topic near and dear to both of our hearts. Uh, as always, thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.