Kevin Dahlstrom and Mike Brown discuss why high-performers struggle to know what they actually want versus what they think they should want. They share the "Ideal End State" exercise, which drills from broad goals like wealth down to underlying feelings like freedom, and Mike's "Unbreakable Year" method for mapping ideal days and weeks. Both stress trade-offs: what you must give up to get what you want.
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Hey everybody. Welcome to The Inner Circle. I'm Kevin Dahlstrom. With me as always is my good friend and member of my inner circle, Mike Brown. And, um, today we're gonna talk about a, um, quote from Naval Ravikant that Mike and I both love, and I think it's gonna be a great discussion. The quote is, the only real measure of intelligence is whether you get what you want out of life. And this begs a really important question, which is, what do you want out of life? And what spurred this conversation is Mike was telling me offline, you know, Mike works with a lot of high-performing individuals and he was saying how, um, so many of them struggle with this seemingly very simple question. So I'll leave it at that. And why don't you, Mike, riff a little bit on what you've encountered when, when you've explored this. question with people.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's, uh, once again, simple, not easy. Like when you ask someone what they want, it's actually a very confronting question. Most, most people can, can speak to sort of generalities, but it's actually really hard to define what it is you want out of life, right? Because there, there are so many competing priorities and conflicting interests. And, you know, we've talked often on this show about the accumulation of debts, of contracts that we made with younger versions of ourselves. And all of a sudden we just accumulate stuff. We accumulate, you know, obligations. We accumulate all these things and we wake up and go, man, this, this doesn't really look like what I thought it would look like. The success doesn't feel the way I thought the success would feel. You know, being rich doesn't feel the way I thought it would would feel like these things don't work out because there's a fundamental lack of intentionality and a fundamental lack of specificity. And, you know, so, so when I started coaching engagement, it's the first question I actually asked people was like, what do you want? And, and so many have a hard time articulating, uh, with good reason, right? Because a lot of the things we're told to want don't make us feel the way we think they're going to feel.
Yeah, I think what you're getting at is it's hard to discern our true desires from what society tells us we should want. And I think it happens subconsciously. Like we, you know, we all live in society, um, and we're influenced every day by what we see, what we experience. You know, a lot of men in particular, we, you know, we, we live in the corporate world where identity is tied to work and the measure of success is one thing. And we all know what that is, which is, you know, um, financial success. And so the question is, you know, how do you break through that and get to your true desires? And so, so I've got an answer for that, but before I do, how do you do that with clients? Like, so what you've got a coaching customer, who's struggling to answer that question? What are some of the things you do to help them answer that question?
Well, the first thing is that number one, we actually have a really hard time answering that question. I think so often because we're actually cut off from feeling. We're actually, we, most of us live from here up. And so we intellectualize wanting, uh, and that means these, these outside forces are, are acting on our, uh, the intellectualization of that process. And so, you know, number one is just actually getting people in touch with the other, you know, 90% of information that they've been conditioned to leave out, by the way. And, and, and, and look, you know, uh, this does serve a purpose. And I, I, uh, I also work with a lot of military folks and we are taught from day one in the military to compartmentalize.
Yeah.
You know, when you, when you have emotions, put those away, you've got a job to do. And that serves really well. Like you don't want people breaking down and crying on the battlefield. Like there, there, this is a life or death scenario where you've got to compartmentalize those emotions. And the same thing I think goes for, for any high performer climbing the corporate ladder or like whatever it is, like you are, you are taught to well that shit down, put it away, lock it in a box because that's, that's really inconvenient if that stuff were to pop up. And so we get really good at cutting ourselves off from what we actually feel. But you can't know what you want unless you actually feel it viscerally. You feel it somatically, right? Like when you go rock climbing, there is a feeling, there is a sensation that you are feeling within your body. And if you're cut off from your body, you don't have access to that.
Yeah.
So, so that's the first step is like, well, how do you actually know what wanting feels like?
Yeah, I think you nailed it. It's, um, so as you know, like I've developed this exercise to help answer this question called the ideal end state. Where you basically like bullet out, you know, if there were no constraints, what would your best life look like? And a lot of people, um, when I describe the exercise, think it's like a bucket list of accomplishments. And I always tell them it's the opposite of that. Actually, it's the anti-bucket list. It's actually a state of being. And what we're trying to get at is how do you want to feel? Because ultimately that's, that is what we're chasing. And One of the little mini exercises I use, 'cause like a simple example is a lot of younger people in particular on their ideal end state, I'll review it and I'll see like, I want a net worth of $20 million. Well, that doesn't inherently convey anything. So the question to ask is, to what end? And you keep asking to what end until you get to what the, the, the thing you're really after. So a simple example is like, I wanna be worth $20 million. To what end? Well, because I want to quit my crappy job. To what end? Because I want to feel free. To what end? Because I want to just pursue this artistic endeavor that I've had on the sidelines forever. Now we're, now we're starting to get to something that's an ideal end state, right? And maybe it turns out you don't actually need the $20 million to get to that end state.
Yeah. And a, a quote that I love from Office Space, you don't, you don't need a million bucks to do that, dude. My cousin's broke. Don't do shit.
Yeah, exactly.
Right? But it really is true. Like, what is it that we're actually trying to pursue? For most people, it's a felt sense of freedom and a felt sense of peace. And those two sort of coexist, right? It's really hard to feel peace within if you are tied to a bunch of obligations, like a job you hate, right? Like, so you've got to clear the things that take you out of that state. Yeah. And that, that sense of peace is actually just starting to recognize that nothing's out of place. And look, I can use an example from my own life. Um, I recently went, went to Africa. We talked about that trip and I kind of went in with this sense of like, I should be doing more. I should be growing faster. I should be writing more. I should be doing all this stuff. And it was kind of this, this internal turmoil. And I left and, and, and the thing I did is, is my own version of the ideal end state, which I call the Unbreakable Year. You, you map out your ideal day, right? And then you map out your ideal week, your ideal month, and your, and your ideal year. And I've done this. I do this exercise quarterly.
Mm-hmm.
And by the way, number one, it has to be appropriate for the season you're in, right? The season of your life really matters. Not all seasons are gonna be the same, right? If you're in your early 20s, you're probably in build mode. It may not look like if you're in your 40s or 50s, right? So just take that into account. But B, here's what I realize. My perfect day looks like this. I wake up without an alarm between 6 and 7. I have coffee. I read. I go out on my mountain bike. I come back from my mountain bike. I shower and eat breakfast. I meditate for 45 minutes. And then I sit down to a calendar with no calls. And I write from like 11 until I finish at 2 or finish at 4 or finish at 6, right? Or maybe some days the words aren't even flowing at all and I get up 30 minutes later.. But, but that's my actual perfect day. So now my question is, cool, I know what my perfect day feels like. How do I stack as many of those as possible? And when I ran this exercise, I realized I am literally living my ideal life. I'm doing it right now. I have 3 days of that a week. And like, could I squeeze out one more? Maybe. But, but 3 days a week of doing exactly what I want to do, uh, in, in the way that I like. is, is basically there, right? And like, there's always like little tweaks and micro adjustments, but then the next part was, okay, one day a week I still want to do client work. I still want to have client calls. I love my, my group and my community. So I love showing up for that. Okay, cool. I'll stack one day of that. And then, you know, two of those days I'm having dinner with the family. One of those days is a date night. Like now I've built my ideal week, by the way, I'm living it.
Yep.
I want to travel once a month. Uh, if I travel twice a month, I get, I get stressed out. If I travel less than once a month, I go stir crazy. So cool. Now I've just built my ideal year, right? And that's, that's adventure trips, family vacations, you know, visiting my parents, whatever. All of that is in that, you know, once a month travel. I'm literally doing that right now. So what is causing this turmoil is imagining that I'm not.
I think that's a great example of what I talked about, which is discerning your true desires from what society tells us. I think the pressure you were feeling to produce more, to write more, to have more followers, whatever, was not coming from inside. It was coming from an external source. You know, it's like a fear of, uh, you know, comparison is the thief of joy type thing. Um, one thing just to note for everybody, because, you know, the, the life that Mike just described. Sounds quite idyllic, I'm sure to several people, is that, uh, an ideal end state, a perfect year, you, whatever is, is earned. Like, you know, in my case for my exercise, um, I say like, look, um, aim big, like really go, you know, outline your best life. And yes, it can evolve over time, but if it doesn't take decades to get there, let's say you're 20, if it doesn't take decades to get there, You're not thinking big enough. Now, Mike and I are more on the other end of that. You know, Mike's what, 46, I think.
55. Yes. Don't, don't age me out, Kevin.
I'm 55. So you would expect that we would be pretty darn close to our, our best life. And I'm the same way. Like, I, it's, I'm, I pinch myself every day that I, you know, I, I've got like, you know, 25 items on my bulleted out ideal end state, all but 4. Are checked off and the only, the 4 remaining were just waiting for us to become empty nesters, which we just became. And so, you know, I pinch myself every day to like, but, but it was earned. And I think the key point that I always have to point out to people is the reason this exercise is so important is because you'll never get there if you don't define the destination. And that was the mistake I made for many, many years. And it kind of segues us to a topic I wanted to talk about. Um, but you know, I was just plowing forward, you know, using society's version of success. And for me, it all had to come to a dramatic head when, when I was in my mid-forties and realized like, I've built this life that looks amazing to the rest of the world, but I'm more miserable than ever. And it, uh, the question is like, can you define, um, you know, what you want out of life until you've kind of been through the crucible and know what you don't want?
Yeah, I mean, this is, this is a great place to start, right? If I don't know what I want, I certainly can start with what I don't want, right? And for most people, that's feeling trapped, right? Like nobody, it's really hard to find peace if you're trapped. And that might be trapped in a job that could be trapped in a marriage that's not serving you. It could be, you know, there's, there's lots of different traps that, that we end up getting into. Those are barriers to living that ideal end state, like period. Right? So identifying what you don't want, I think, is a really critical first step. But then the other, the other step, um, and I talk about this a lot in the book, is trade-off literacy. Right? And, and, um, okay, cool. Everything in life has trade-offs, right? I can't have ultimate freedom to gallivant the world with my partner if I choose to have kids. Right? Like, that is, that is a barrier to world travel or whatever it is. Okay, cool. But, but the, the experience of raising kids is deeply fulfilling and it's one that I want. So I recognize that I'm going to give up some freedom for solo time and time just alone with my partner in doing so, but that's a willful obligation that I've chosen and something that I can recognize. Okay. When I weigh these two trade-offs, then this is what I choose. And I, and I choose it knowingly. The, the problem that people run into is either imagining that there's no trade-off so they can actually have it all, or B, not naming the trade-off. Right. And I think that's the really operative part here is like, hey, I can choose all of these things willingly if I'm really clear about what the trade-offs are.
I got a great example of that. That's a great tee-up. So first of all, this knowing what you don't want. I've got a, mine, I always have to do everything in a dramatic fashion for some reason, but Mine, you know, things came to a head. I was 47 years old and there was a distinct moment where I was sitting in my executive office in Dallas, Texas. I remember looking out the window across the hellscape that is Dallas and I'm thinking, what the hell am I doing here? You know, I was getting paid something like, I just did the math in my head. I was getting paid something like $25,000 a day to sit in that office, which A lot of people would say amazing, but I had done that. I had paid my dues. I didn't need to stack more of those days. I wanted to stack days doing other things. But in any life, there's trade-offs. And so a great example of that, like when I sort of rebooted and now I'm living very aligned with my ideal end state, one thing that people always ask about when they see my ideal end state is there's a line item on there that says control 80% of my time, and they say, Why is it 80% and not 100%? The reason is because there are trade-offs and look, you don't want it— controlling 100% of your time is actually quite dangerous. You need, I think we need to have skin in the game. We need some obligations. But in my prior life, I had it flipped. I controlled 20% of my life and surrendered 80%. I think, you know, 80/20 in, in my book, that's about as good as it gets. Like, I don't, Nate, I think it'd be dangerous for me to control any more than 80%.
Yeah. And having been, you know, retired for a little while, like, it was amazing. But I do think to find, you know, that peace that we're talking about, you need a vector. You call it a quest, right? I call it a vector. Like, I need a direction. By the way, the direction could be getting really good at tennis or rock climbing or whatever. Like, it doesn't have to be a professional pursuit. I think that's another place Oh my God, you would get so bored if you're not working. Like, I did not get bored. I was having an absolute blast. But I had a lot of vectors. I had a lot of things that I was interested in that I was pursuing. And, you know, I chose to come back for many reasons, but one is, you know, I was looking for a more fulfilling way of being. And that does mean not— like I said, I still want a day of client work and doing coaching. Uh, I don't want 100% of my days to be wake up and meditate and write. Like that also eventually becomes, it's a prison of its own.
Yeah. Um, so the needle can be threaded and I think that's an important thing to point out as people think about what they want out of life is, you know, I always kind of rejected the idea that you had to choose between a great life and a great career. I think you can have both. You need both. And, um, Mike, I haven't even told you this. This is an update. Live, but I was laughing right before I logged into this, uh, podcast that I've actually got 5 jobs right now. So you don't know this, but I have taken on 2 fractional CMO gigs and they're both really cool projects. And of course I've got my Business Bolt, I've got my writing, and I've got my events business. And you know, they're all fractional, but it's, it's crazy. But what's amazing is, um, I'm still living my ideal end state because That stuff kind of fills in around the more important things. You know, I was joke, or I always say I plan my week out by looking at the weather. Right now I'm injured, so it's a little different, but normally I plan my week out by looking at the weather and start with the climbing or the stuff I want to do outside and fill it. And despite the fact that I'm busy as hell, I have been able to basically hold to this like day-to-day routine that I, I really love. So it is possible to thread the needle, but it all starts again back to this question of, of, uh, you know, what do you really want? Like, what are the, the big things that you want to build the rest of your calendar around?
Yeah, it's stacking the big rocks first, right? The big, like, I, I recommend that everyone have 3 to 5 non-negotiables. So when, when I run clients through the exercise that I just talked about, The Unbreakable Year, which again is a variant on, on Kevin's ideal end state. The first thing I do is go, okay, let's look at what you just wrote out. Number one, what on that list doesn't require a single more dollar for you to do? And by the way, most of the changes people need to make have nothing to do with money.
Yep.
Right? Like that's number one. Oh, I can turn my phone off and be present with my kids at dinner. Right? First and foremost, that's, that's a change almost everybody can make immediately. And I want every— almost everyone that I run through this exercise identifies, right? So most of the changes you need to make are free. And then second, what do you sort— go through and circle 3 to 5 non-negotiables, right? And, and for me, um, it, it, it does, it looks like one meditation, right? That's, that's kind of the cornerstone. That's the building block. Um, and then, and then two, at least one day with zero calls on my calendar. For the week, right? Because it's just, it, that helps me get into the creative flow. Even if I have one 30-minute call at 4 in the afternoon, for me, that breaks the concentration of the day. So I know I need to protect those two things. If I'm doing those two things, like everything else starts to slide around and fall into place.
A couple final things I'll just say about this sort of exercise and, you know, we each have our version of it, but, um, you know, I developed this exercise out of my own need. Right. And, um, you know, over the past, whatever, 7 years, I've, um, told a lot of people about it, especially online, but I've actually personally gone through the ideal end state exercise with dozens of people from billionaires to, to broke college kids. And it's interesting when people go through the exercise, no matter who they are, they reach kind of the same 2 epiphanies, which is number 1, which you alluded to, Mike, is, um, most of what I've put on my ideal end state doesn't require as much money as I imagined. You know, I, I, I just sort of imagined that I would need $5 million, $10 million, $15 million, pick your number to live my best life. And if I, as I look at my list, most of these things don't cost much, if, if anything. So that's number one. Number two is you realize that you're living out of alignment. So you're doing things that don't take you toward your end state or, or maybe even take you away from it. The classic example I like to use just to pick on is, you know, in my ideal end state, it doesn't say drive a fancy car. Now, it's absolutely a valid thing. Like if you're really into cars and that makes you feel good, it's on you, but it's not on mine. So if I did have a fancy car and let's say I had a big car payment of $1,500 a month or $2,000 a month, whatever, that then you'd have to question like, I'm doing something that isn't on my ideal end state and potentially is taking resources away from achieving my ideal end state.
Yeah, it's huge, right? And, and here's one that I think, um, really catches people by surprise is even fun or, uh, or time with friends and stuff like that. Like, this is, this is one that I find, uh, is, is a balance I have to constantly think about or, or keep keep in, in the forefront is, um, Claire and I are yes people. We love saying yes. Right. But we have a lot of friends. We have, you know, uh, really cool folks, members of our inner circle. And that means we get a lot of invitations. And if, if I say yes to everything, all of a sudden I feel pulled in 100 directions and I'm actually getting away from the things that I want to do. So even too much of a good thing can still be too much.
Well, I think that's, You know, yet another, that's a second order effect of defining your ideal state. Your perfect day is it allows you, it makes it very clear as a litmus test of what to say yes to and what to say no to. We probably should wrap up, but I wanna drop one last thing that, something you said, Mike, in a recent episode that has stuck with me that really applies here. Because, you know, in the day-to-day knife fight that is life, we all lose perspective, right? It's hard to tell how am I being influenced by society? What do I really want? And I think you and I agreed the number one way to sort of quickly break that logjam is, I'm going to use your words, you know, go somewhere special and let the land work on you. I believe there's a lot to, you know, the answer is out there in nature, whether it's your backyard or a safari in Africa like Mike did. I think, you know, there's nothing better for resetting perspective than going some to, to a, a special place to land that speaks to you. And you don't have to do anything, just let the land work on you. So let's wrap with that, but I want you to close with your thoughts on, on that as a mechanism for kind of figuring out what you really want.
Yeah, I, I love that, that framework with you. You left out one critical ingredient that I, that I think, which is, uh, sit in silence. Go to that special place and actually just take some time to not do anything. And that, and that, uh, you know, that's something that you say you don't even have to do anything, just sit there and be in silence. But if you go to that special place, but you're filling it with conversations and friends and all kinds of stuff, it's actually scrolling. Yeah. Do like whatever it is, the land can actually do its work. So, so I think silence and solitude is actually a critical ingredient of that. And I think that's one that. Um, you know, if you're listening to this and, and you realize you might be out of alignment, you realize your ideal end state may be, may be further than you think. Uh, that's where I'd start is, is go somewhere special, take some time to yourself, and then just sit in silence. Don't read too much. Don't fill it with podcasts. Just actually get really quiet and see what emerges.
Amen. Good stuff, brother.
Always. All right. We'll see you guys next time.
