Mike Brown and Kevin Dahlstrom argue that moderation doesn't work: most drinkers drink weekly or daily, not occasionally. They favor "periodization," cycling between "full-send" indulgent phases and "monk mode" discipline, guided by a clear goal like snowboarding at 80. Short-term pleasures create cascading negative consequences; positive habits compound instead.
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Hey everybody. Welcome to the Inner Circle. I'm Mike Brown, as always joined by my co-host here, Kevin Dahlstrom, a member of my Inner Circle. And the whole point of this show is just having the conversations that Kevin and I would be having anyway. And just hitting the record button today is a, is a really fun topic. Kevin wrote a post. I'm just going to read here. There are many types of fun and some are in conflict with each other. So you have to choose. I've lost interest in the type of fun that makes life worse. So Kevin, what inspired you to write this post? What does that mean to you?
Yeah, I mean, what you just read is sort of an excerpt from a bit of a rant I went on earlier. And there's this like ongoing debate on X about like this idea of like being pretty strict and disciplined versus like, hey, live a little. What's a couple drinks matter? What's a cup? You know, what's a skipped workout matter? And I have to tell you, the older I get, the more of an extremist I become, probably in all ways, but in particular around habits. And one reason is that I've found it's, it's actually easier to be extreme about habits than to kind of be wishy-washy and to try to, try to exist on that slippery slope where you're always like fighting the urge to drink or to not work out, or, you know, pick your, pick your habit. And so, you know, you can definitely make a case for, hey, you know, everything in moderation. What I find though is in practice, humans are pretty terrible at moderation. And, um, because drinking is always the example I used, I actually looked up a couple stats cuz I was like, how good are people actually at moderation? And there was like a, a Gallup survey where it was a bunch of people who like, it was just self-reported. So I'm guessing it was like, underestimating the real numbers. But imagine that of all people that drink, something like 60%, um, drink at least weekly and 25%, um, drink daily, which is, that was the more shocking number to me. And it just goes to show that, like, I call it the myth of the, the, the occasional drinker is like, I think there are people who, like, I mean, myself, I drink, but it's like 3 times a year. Right? So that truly is an occasional drinker. Most people are not that. So I think for most people, and I even include myself in that, it's much easier to just say no. And, um, you know, I, that, um, that line about, you know, I've, I've lost interest in the type of fun that makes life worse. You know, there, there's lots of ways to have fun, like going out with the boys, having a bunch of drinks and staying up till 3 in the morning is fun. But also getting up really early and going for a hike is a lot of fun. And in some ways, for obvious reasons, those are in conflict with each other. You know, both are fun, but at some point you have to make a choice. And to be honest, like the, the, the hangover, the, the second order effects of just doing things that are fun but not necessarily healthy aren't worth it to me anymore. And so I've become pretty radical about just, you doing fun things that compound and make life better. So, I'll stop there. Any thoughts you have or reactions you have to that?
Tons. So, first of all, I agree with you on the drinking front. As someone who— I drank 2 to 4 glasses of wine every night for 20 years from the time I was 25 until I was 42. I quit drinking 3 years ago. Totally. And it was for this exact reason that you're talking about is that I tried every moderation program in the book. I would be like, okay, I only drink when I go out at restaurants. I only drink on the weekends or whatever. And I would tell myself that I would do these things. And like 2 weeks later, I'd find myself drinking every night again. Right. There was just this habitual 5 PM ritual of pulling out a great bottle of wine. And look, I was not drinking to excess every night. Like I would, I even take offense with the term alcoholic. Like I don't think. That's what I was, but habitual drinker certainly lands for me because, you know, the proof is in the pudding. And just to your point, like, I couldn't find moderation. And so I quit, and that was the absolute— one of the best decisions of my life. I didn't drink for almost 2 and a half years. And about 6 months ago, my whole intention was to change my relationship with drinking. Okay. Can I re-pattern this? And truly it did. I mean, I I count it as one of my top 3 life decisions, but I also hate absolutes. So about 6 months ago, I said, okay, it's been a long time. Like, what would it look like to try and enjoy a glass of wine with dinner? And I will tell you, it's a slippery slope, man. I thought I could drink 2 or 3 times a year. And, you know, I found myself drinking more and more often. And so it's a total slippery slope. And for me, I'm with you. It's not worth it. But here's how I like to think about these things. Maybe I'm a little less extreme than you, except for I inhabit both extremes. So, I like to be either full send or monk mode. And I sort of, I borrow a term from endurance athletics, which is periodization. I like to think of my life in periodizations. So, I'll go full send off the rails, not really working out that hard. You know, drinking, partying, you know, like traveling, like whatever it is, and then come back and just lock in. And that's, and I'm, and I'm entering a season of being locked in again, man. It feels amazing. Reading, writing, meditating, riding my mountain bike every day. Um, I eat cleaner, but I, I tend to find, and, and this is what I'd be interested in is I start to go stir crazy kind of either way. If I've been doing monk mode for too long, I start getting the itch. And if I've been partying for too long, then it's like, it's, oh yeah, clearly this is done. So that, that indication is clear, but even the monk mode, when I start going too long, I'm like, all right, I've, I'm, I want to blow off some steam and, and I'll, and I'll do a month or two and it depends on what's going on in my life.
It's funny. Um, who would imagine the former fighter pilot would be full send or monk mode, right? Like you come by it very honestly. It's funny though, because, uh, You and I in some ways are the opposite on that. Like, I'm the opposite. I, I'm literally the, like, my happy place is having a routine that I love and doing the same thing over and over and over because I can't get enough of it. The example I like to use, my wife and I went on a, um, a 2-week hiking trip in Tuscany and kind of like the small villages across Tuscany. And literally all there was for lunch in these villages was, uh, the freshly made, uh, local bread and a salami. And we had bread and salami and cheese every day for lunch for 2 weeks. And you know what? When we got home, we were like, I, I want more. Uh, that's how good it was. And that, that's just an example of like, that's the routine. But I, what, what's interesting is I think both of our lifestyles require a high degree of discipline because I was gonna say a lot of people would not be able to switch modes like you can. And that's where I think it gets really tricky. And a lot of people would not be able, would get bored or stir crazy doing the same thing every day like I do. And so I think the, it's interesting that the common thread between these seemingly super different approaches is a high degree of discipline, right?
Yeah. And, and definitely, uh, I think good habits beget good habits. Like, um, you know, er, earlier this year I wanted to get super fit for the heli trip. Uh, and, you know, started on peptides and then as a result, uh, started working out harder. And then as a result, started drinking more water and cleaned up my diet and started going to bed earlier. And there was definitely this domino effect, this cascading effect. I love Kelly and Juliette Starrett. They're, they're some of my best friends and they have a really great take on this is like, which is like working out should serve you to do the actual thing. Like the point is not working out. The point is working out so you can live your life. And so I went into this kind of monk mode season in preparation for the heli trip. And then it was full on. I, I had 8 days of incredible heli skiing and, uh, late nights with the boys and I was totally prepped for it. And then I took a month off. I didn't work out for a month after that. Um, and ate whatever I wanted and just kind of, uh, sat in more stillness. And that was really cool too.
I think what you touched on a little bit is a topic, something that I'm super obsessed about, which is second order effects. Um, I think a lot of people only consider the first order effects of their decisions, especially of habits. And, and a great example, you know, what we're gonna use drinking as kind of the, the example, but you apply this to anything, is if you go out drinking, we all know the first-order effects of that, right? Like, it's fun and it's fun. Next morning you wake up, you have a headache, you're probably not 100% for anything that you're gonna do. And then it makes it that much easier to drink the second night and so on. And so there's, there's second-order effects, but even further. If you take, if you take that to the extreme and, you know, I've got this, this runs in my family, unfortunately, where alco— I have a sister who's a lifelong alcoholic. The really devastating second order effects are the, like, destroying families, like, beyond your, even yourself. And the good news is second order effects cut both ways, right? So, like, exercise, you know, we know the, the benefits, like, you endorphins afterward, you get stronger, you maybe look a little bit better, but then, like, the there's the effect on mood and improving your relationships and you're having better sex and like all these other things. And I guess, you know, I'm a big believer that, um, you know, I, and it's, it, it sounds like an oversimplification, but it's not as easy as it sounds is like in many ways a great life is just like doing things that make life better and not doing things that make life worse. And we pretend that we don't know which is which, but we absolutely do.
Yeah, and exactly. And I, and I do think that containment protocol that you mentioned, um, is, is really important. And for me, it's that full permission of like, okay, I'm going to go full send. I'm going to go off the rails like on purpose and experience it all at the bleeding edges. And then, that allows me to come back to working out and discipline with a renewed sense of purpose and focus.
Let me ask you a question though if you don't mind me interrupting because I'm going to guess most of our listeners will identify with you more than me because I'm probably like a little bit unusual in the sense that like, I just kind of like to do the same routine every day. I think most people are more like you where they'll kind of vary and, you know, they'll slip a little bit and then come back. How do you come back is the question? Because what I see is a lot of people will go off the rails, so to speak, and then they really struggle to find their way back.
Two things. Number one is I have spent the last decade through meditation and therapy and a lot of spiritual practice getting in tune with my inner landscape. And so, you know, when I start to feel the cumulative effects of being off the rails, like it, I have that awareness kind of locked in and it starts. So, so the contrast for me becomes very stark of like, oh, okay. I've been, I've been off the rails for too long. I'm not feeling as good as I was. And, and I also have the pull to want to perform well on the mountain bike or, or snowboarding or whatever it is. And if I go out and I'm like, oh, I'm, I'm not feeling like I could, that's going to snap me back into place and be like, okay, cool. I'm done. I'm ready to hang up my, my partying spurs for a little, little while and I'm ready to lock in. And this is the thing I think people miss is that period of like, You know, even in Atomic Habits, like, you know, you, you can, you stack 14 days or whatever. People always talk about how hard it is. I actually kind of like that part. I actually like the excitement of like getting back into it and being like, oh yeah, I'm mountain biking again. I'm getting into this discipline. I'm feeling better with eating. Like that, that part is sort of exciting for me. And look, maybe, maybe I'm, I'm kind of, I've kind of wired my system to crave novel experiences, but I really like the novelty. Of switching modes.
What I'm hearing from you is part of why you're able to come back is you're doing it in service of bigger goals that you have. Like you'll go off the rails, you know that that's detrimental to the big picture, but it's also in a way like part of the process. And then, but, but you're able to come back in many ways because, you know, you want to be fit and healthy. You want to be sharp in your work. I know that's, that's true. And I just wonder if that's the issue that a lot of people have is they, and, um, you know, we're going to talk about this in a future podcast episode, but like having that, um, that guiding, that North Star of what you're building toward that can, that does provide a reason for you to come back.
And I would say, um, even to caveat just a little bit, um, when you say, I know it's not good for the, for the long term, like, yeah, I know stacked over time. Eating whatever I want and partying and, you know, living the very YOLO lifestyle is not good over cumulative years, but I would actually argue that it is good for me and my mental health. And like, I, like, I, and I've also tasted what it, what it feels like to perform at a very high level, both in the military and then, you know, working on getting my pro card as a, as a triathlete back in the day. Like I've been at that extreme too, and that actually doesn't feel good to me either.
Yeah.
You know, one of the things when I, when I was my fastest at Ironman, I was training 25 hours a week. I was eating very strict diet, you know, paleo plus a few carbs to refuel. I was super skinny and I didn't feel well. Like I was always broken down from some injury. I was always on the verge of getting sick from training too hard. Like I actually don't like living in that space either.
Yeah. I think what you're describing is something you and I talk about all the time, which is the chasing. Like chasing anything is not healthy. Like we talk about the spiritual chasers, the money chasers, you know, chasing the high, chasing the money, chasing the triathlon PR. That tends to become unhealthy. I think, you know, and maybe this is, look, I've done all of that just before I say what I'm about to say.
Understand.
You know, my, the, my standard saying is like, I've made every mistake in the book, so hopefully you don't have to, you can learn something from me. But I've reached a point in my life and I'm a little older than you. I'm 55 where people will say to me sometimes like, man, you're so disciplined. And that kind of blows me away because I really don't think of myself as disciplined because I do exactly what I want to do every day. It takes zero discipline. It's just that like, I've just lost the passion for the full send, at least in the stuff that's, you know, headline unhealthy. And, you know, kind of going back to that tweet, it's just like, I don't have the energy to put into things that don't compound in a positive way anymore.
Yeah, I think that's totally fair. And look, I reserve the right to update my position, uh, when I'm old man river like you and Tim Ferriss. I might be tired and realize all I can, all I can do is get out of bed and meditate at that point. But yeah, the thing, I mean, I do feel the same way. You know, people are like, oh my God, you meditate 42 minutes a day. I could never do that. And I'm like, that's my favorite part of the day. Like, I can't, I can't wait to do that part of my day. There's no discipline involved. It's like, this is exactly what I want to be doing. And I get grumpy if I don't get to.
100%. And I think, you know, whether, you know, you and I are weirdos, we like to write and, you know, think big thoughts and, you know, ponder, wrestle with like, you know, really difficult issues and record podcasts and stuff. Um, all weird things, but whatever it is for you, like, I think that's, that's a big part of it is like, figure out, um, you know, what do you really care about? Like, follow your actions and. There's got, you know, inevitably there's some healthy things that you care about. Do more of those. We also all have weaknesses and we face temptation toward, you know, our own proclivities toward unhealthy habits. Do less of those. And look, I have my own weaknesses and you know, it's a, it's a day-to-day battle. But it always feels pretty good when you make the right decision.
Yeah. I mean, I think this is also a huge part of this is self-trust, right? So what I'm just recognizing right now is that when I go into off-the-rails mode, I'm doing it with full permission. I'm not saying I'm going to wake up tomorrow and work out and then don't, right? Because what that does is that breaks self-trust. I'm saying I'm giving myself, I'm going on this vacation, I'm doing whatever I'm doing, and it's going to be full out and I'm going to enjoy every second of it. I'm going to soak it up. There's no guilt, there's no broken promises. I know exactly damn well what I'm doing. And then I come back and if I say I'm gonna work out, damn sure I'm gonna work out because I'd never wanna start breaking that pro— if I say I'm not gonna drink, I'm not gonna break that promise.
You know how I would frame that, Mike? I, I love that. And I would frame that as like containerization. Like you're giving yourself permission, but it's within a container. It's not an infinite size container. It's a contained container. Yeah. And I like that because The alternative is, okay, I'm gonna go like binge on food while I'm on vacation, but I'm gonna feel shitty about it every, after every meal. That's miserable. Like, don't do that to yourself. Like, yeah, I, I, I'm on board with that. It's like, con— if you're gonna like allow yourself to go off the rails, go full send, containerize it, let your, give yourself permission to enjoy it and savor it, but make sure it comes to an end.
And this is, um, you know, and when we talk about goals, like My fitness goal is to snowboard when I'm 80, and that's it. Yeah. And so my organizing principle around how I think about fitness is like, does this serve my North Star principle of snowboarding when I'm 80? And it turns out it's, it's, it's simple, not easy, but, but it's really not that, like, you don't have to eat a perfect diet, right? Like, I don't have to be biohacker to the max to be able to snowboard when I'm 80. I need to have some reasonable strength regimen. I need to have, uh, a reasonable engine, right? Cardiovascular engine. But number one, you know what gets people is mobility. And, and that's the one that's actually hard for me to, to work on is mobility. But yeah, it gives me this organizing principle of like, I don't need to be training like I was training in my early or late 20s, early 30s for Ironman. I just want to, I just want to make it till I'm 80. Cool. There's like, there's like an ease that's created with that.
Last thing I'll say, and it's going to be my old man wisdom is, um, You know, as I got older, I kept waiting for that age where I would start to like hit the wall and feel old. And I thought it was going to be 40. 40 was fine. I thought it was going to be 45. 45 was fine. I thought it might be 50. 50 was fine. 55 hits different. And I think you would concede, like, I've taken care of myself better than most. Like, I'm probably pretty extreme on that, but I will tell you what happens is the margin gets smaller over time. And I think this is something, a useful thing for a lot of our listeners is like, yeah, when I remember when I was in college, I could go drinking till 3 in the morning and get up at 7 and go play basketball, sweat it out. And I was fine. I had huge margin. The older you get, you know, you have kids, you get a wife, you get your body just gets older. You have less and less margin. I will tell you, like, that's part of where my radicalization comes from is I just, at 55, you just don't have the margin. to go off the rails. Like I can do, I can party with Mike for one night and I have, but that's about it for me, dude. And then I gotta get back on the program.
Yeah. And I think that's totally fair. Right. And that's, that's why I love having a bit of different perspective here because, and I'm snowboarding at my highest level at 45. Right. And while doing all of these things and that still feels really great. I mean, definitely like without a doubt, this season was my best season that I've ever logged. Uh, since I started snowboarding at 13, and I know that's, that's, there's a finite window there where I can say I am riding at my peak physical ability, but it's pretty damn cool to do it at 45. Yeah.
The way I put it is you just have to turn the screws a little tighter every year older you get. Um, but you know, I, all that said, like, I, I'm still feeling and performing better than, than ever. So look, let's, uh, this is a topic we could go on about, uh, on forever discussing. But I think the, you know, I guess maybe each of us can kind of give one piece of wisdom to, for our listeners to take away. I think, you know, mine would be, look, there, there's lots of ways to have fun. Some are more healthy than others. It's a spectrum. All I'm saying is just over time, have more and more bias toward the things that compound life in a positive way and less bias toward things that you know are unhealthy. And it really is that simple. It doesn't have to be a dramatic overnight change. Just Slowly tighten those screws.
Yeah. And, and I think mine, because I can't agree, I can't disagree with any of that. That is, that is absolutely the proper frame. So I'm gonna conceal, concede the, the point to Kevin on this one. And if you, if you are gonna go savor the, the less healthy luxuries in life, do it with intentionality, do it with a container and, and do it with an, an end date and a, and a shift. Already planned out so that you don't wake up in a year or two and be like, oh my God, how did I gain 25 pounds?
I ruined my life.
All right.
Great discussion as always.
As always, man, I appreciate your wisdom and, uh, we'll see you guys next time.
Likewise.
