The Rules That Got You Here Won't Get You There

Hey everybody, welcome to the Inner Circle. It's my favorite 20 minutes each week, mainly because it's an excuse to catch up with my good friend Mike Brown. Uh, these are really just our unfiltered discussions and you get to be a fly on the wall. Today's topic is one that's near and dear to both of our hearts. It's the War of Art. And this was inspired by, if you've heard of the book by Steven Pressfield, um, he talks about, um, the creative challenges that we all face as knowledge workers. And it's a timely topic because Mike has been at war for certainly for this week, but for a while, um, writing his book. So maybe we'll, we'll start there. Mike is, you know, tell me what you've been up to and then how do you think about this subject of the war of art?

I mean, I've been writing this book for, uh, 2 and a half years. I, I just, uh, I checked when I first opened the Word document and it was 2 and a half years ago. And I am currently on my fourth iteration, my— of burning it all down and nearly starting it from, from zero. It's been a wild process. It's been cathartic. I've learned so much, but it's really one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life because it's a different flavor than the other things I've done, right? Business. Endurance sports, athletics, because with business, with sports, like you can always rub more effort on it. And even when you don't feel like it, you can still get up and work out. And with business, like you can just wake up and force yourself to do the thing. And like, you know, you're going to move the ball uphill. Yeah. And art is not, it doesn't work. More effort does not work. Like I could say, and I started by being like, oh, I'm going to write 1,000 words every morning before anybody gets up. Like, And the thing is that there will be days when I had the whole page in front of me and nothing on my calendar and the words wouldn't come, right? Like you cannot force creativity to come out. And so it's a completely different kind of struggle where, you know, more effort is, is not necessarily the answer. And look, there's a balance, like you have to keep showing up to it. And what I've learned over the last 3 and a half years is that if I keep showing up, like the book starts to reveal itself and that's, and that's really been the thing. And. I could have shipped those earlier drafts. In fact, I shipped one to my editor in December and it just wasn't sitting right with me. And the decision to burn it all down again was so hard, but it was so worth it. Like now I'm putting the finishing touches, like it's coming and it's just been flowing out of me because I waited, because I kept fidelity to the process and like refused to ship something that was just good enough. So I'll pause there because I want, I want to know, Kevin, for you, you have a daily writing process. So, so how do you think about this?

Well, I have a bunch of questions that I want to come back to, but since you asked, uh, yeah, I mean, look, I, uh, in my heart of hearts, I think of myself as an artist. I've always been a creative type. I've always had what most others viewed as a bizarre work style, but, but it was really developed, you know, based on trial and error and what worked for me. I have, you know, in the past 40 years learned a couple things about, you know, how to make it work. And dude, it's just like creative projects are a tortured existence, man. Um, and it's, that's the beauty of it. And that's the challenge of it. I think you're living that world right now, but, but let me tell you, listeners, we are entering an age where all work will be creative work because AI is gonna automate the basic nuts and bolts work, like a lot of the heavy lifting, the tactical stuff. What's left is, I often describe it as our role becomes like the director of a movie, which is pretty much like you have a vision and you try to bring it to life, which is what exactly what you're doing with a book, what an artist does, what a musician does. And that process is tough because it's not linear. Like you said, it's not like you're moving a pile of bricks from one side of a, a road to the other. And I was like, okay, if I can move 3 bricks per hour, um, then I'll be done in X number of hours, or I can work a little harder and be done earlier. No, it's like creative work has fits and spurts. And I'll, I'll kind of end my rant with like the central challenge probably of, of everything I do in life. 'Cause most of the work I do at this point is like what I would call almost pure creative work. And, um, whether it's like building the business, doing— I do sort of like fractional CMO stuff for companies where I help them think big, or my writing is, it's this tension between, as you said, you can't force creativity. It happens when it happens, but at the same time, you have to push through what, what, what Pressfield calls the resistance. He capitalizes it. And I, I wrote down the definition, by the way, as a prompt is like, he defines it as an invisible, insidious force which is essentially fear, self-doubt, procrastination, and self-sabotage that arises whenever we try to pursue something important, creative, or growth-oriented. Does that smack you right in the face?

It really rings true with me. And, and, and I love this book because, uh, I've been, I've been battling this myself. And, and the question that I've been sitting with is like, like I had a book that I could have shipped a year and a half ago. Right. And like, why didn't I do it? And at first I was sort of going, okay, am I self-sabotaging? Am I like, am I afraid to put it out to the world? Uh, and, and that's sort of what Pressfield is pointing to there, but I also know what the book wanted to be and I knew it wasn't there yet. Right. And so the standard for myself was like, you know, and, and eventually I came to this place of like, no, this actually isn't self-sabotage. I've pushed the launch date a million times. I've pushed it back. Why is that? It's because the book wasn't doing the job that, that I knew it could do. And it was actually fidelity to the work of like how good I knew it could be. And, and so what looks like from self-sabotage on the outside was actually fidelity to the craft and going, man, it's just not quite there. It's not the book I know it can be. And now it is. I know the difference and I am so glad. That I did not ship earlier, that I did not convince myself it was self-sabotage and just like push through, because now what's come out is exactly what it was always supposed to be.

You know, uh, it's funny because the— I did a stint in Silicon Valley and the ethos is ship it, like get something out. And I think there's a lot to be said for getting something out in the world and seeing how people react and then adapting. But I think in a world, again, in an AI era where the cost of doing that is zero fidelity, that word, I like that word you mentioned, it's becomes more important and putting something out there that does stand out from, um, from, from the crowd is, is super important. And, and the, the what's, when is, you know, if you ask, uh, you know, pick your favorite musician who you respect, ask them when a song is done. You know, it's, there is no clear definition. It's, it's when they've satisfied themselves. And ultimately the great thing is like, that is the greatest reward of any creative project. Now, do, do we hope Mike's book sells a million copies and makes him, you know, a billionaire? Yes, we do. But also like the first, the first hurdle is, is Mike Brown satisfied with it? Is it done in Mike Brown's mind?

There's sort of 3 types of books or writers in the nonfiction space, right? So the first one who is someone who's writing a book as a calling card, like kind of just gets their framework down on paper, gets it out there, hopes that it generates leads for the business. Uh, that was not my intention writing this book. So then the second category is like, Look, I'm trying to put great art into the world, but even there, there's sort of two categories. One is someone like Morgan Housel, who is an amazing synthesis writer. He takes— he's a great storyteller and synthesizes insights, but it's generally other people's stories and insights. And mine is in the third category, which is I'm using my own lived experience to teach the insights that I'm trying to deliver. And, and that just requires a, a very personal process where, you know, like I said, you know, you know what's good and what's not. And, and for me, like I, it just, it just wasn't there and it wasn't there until it was.

Yeah. You and I have that in common. And the way I would term it is I've been thinking about this actually a lot lately. Like, what is my sort of style? And I derive things from first principles. Uh, I actually, uh, was thinking the other day, like, I used to be a voracious reader when I was younger. I actually don't read that much anymore. I do a lot of thinking and processing, and I do a lot of writing. You know, there's, there's no net new creation, right? Everything's a mashup of what comes before it. Um, but, but at the same time, I'd like to, I feel like I derive a lot of my stuff from first principles. That's very satisfying to me. It's funny because like, um, our friend Paul Millard, he reads a lot. He's read all the books and I'll like send him an idea via text. He's go, he'll go. Oh yeah, so-and-so wrote about that. Um, I'm like, yeah. Um, you know, I, I like to think I have my own little spin on it, but I like to get there the hard way, I guess is what I'm saying. And that is a different kind of work. You know, we see this on X, right? It's like there's people that you and I jokingly, snidely refer to as like book report writers.

Yeah.

Like they synthesize information and there's something there, like that's not what I do.

Right. Yeah. And there's true talent. There's true craft. Uh, and like I said, I'm, I'm, I'm holding, uh, Morgan Housel up as, as like the standard of, of doing this work, right? Like the Malcolm Gladwell work. Like there's, there's amazing generational talent writers that have that style. Um, but you're right. Like for me, uh, I tend to back into timeless philosophy through my own stubborn lived existence and, and, uh, AKA learning it the hard way. Yeah. By learning it the hard way. Right. And I'm not arrogant enough to think that, that I've discovered this thing myself. Like, and this is actually like, I've had several really crazy moments of, of reading someone else's work or timeless work and being like, oh my God, like this feels like coming home. It's actually, I've arrived at a lot of these conclusions. In fact, you know, two, one was Ken Wilber. The first time I read Ken Wilber, I was like, wow, like this guy put words to how I've been feeling. I think that's what great philosophy looks like. And then the other was, was Tibetan Buddhism. Like when I, when I started going down the, the Buddhist rabbit hole, I was like, wow, I can't believe how much of this resonates with what I've already arrived at in my own life.

Yeah. And I think like, um, I love that too when I'll discover an idea that's, it's almost like affirming in a way, but it, it causes me to also think like, what's my contribution here? And I think often for me, my contribution is like, I'm both, I'm a big thinker, but I'm also very much a pragmatist. And, um, what I try to deliver to the world is like practical, pragmatic ways to apply this stuff. And if, if there's any like little niche I have, I think that's it. And it, and you know, it resonates with some, some portion of the audience because, you know, there's ultimately like, I'm an engineer mindset and there's like, at some point I get frustrated with pie in the sky thinking. Um, and I like to say, okay, what does this mean for like, what do I do tomorrow? You know what I mean? So I have a question for you, but, but I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna tell you the question and then I'm gonna give you some time by, by, uh, telling our audience a couple things. The, the question is through this process, and I, I would focus like more recently on trying to finish this book. The question is like, what have you, how has your process changed or what have you learned? Any new insights about how to approach creative work? But while you're thinking. You know, I, I wrote down, I always like to prepare a little bit for these episodes. So I wrote down a couple things that I think are relevant here. So I think, you know, even though we talk a lot about how you can't force creativity, I think, um, you know, there's a lot to be said for just getting started, right? And that's, that's the huge, that's the big barrier for a lot of people. I, there's a great quote from Stephen King. He said, amateurs sit and wait for inspiration. The rest of us just get up and go to work. So there's, there's a lot to be said for like not waiting forever for it. There, there's a time to seek inspiration. Then there's a time to just freaking pull out the laptop and get started. And I'm reminded of, I watched an interview with, with, um, Seinfeld one time and, you know, nobody would argue he's a master of his craft. Like he's one of the very best. And I was shocked at his process. He basically says like, look, I'm like a 9 to 5 office guy. Like I go to the office. I write a bunch of jokes. Some of them are good, some of them are bad. And then I go to the clubs and I practice them. It's not that glamorous. It's like pretty basic. And I was like, you know what? That's just like the way anything works. Like even when you're not inspired, like just putting in the reps, there's something to be said for that. And then, you know, have the discernment, which you're going through right now to say, well, yeah, I got this done, but it's not my best. And so. There's a role for that, but I'm going to set it aside and strive for the best. So all that said, what to answer my question, like what, what have you learned, especially recently about like how to kind of get something over the finish line and the creative process?

The last 2 and a half years, really, I mean, it's been a struggle and I would be lying if it like, it's, it's kind of been this albatross, like hanging over my head. Like, oh my God, when am I going to finish this book? And in the process of trying to write the book over the last 2 and a half years, I actually became a writer and I, and I found my voice and I did it. And actually AI has been incredibly helpful. Like you should definitely never use AI to actually write, but, but AI as a thinking partner and an editor and, and to sharpen insights. I learned so much about A, how my own mind works logically and the steps that I go through. I was actually able to map them out. And then how I translate that to the page. And when I started analyzing my favorite pieces and my favorite chapters and what was really working, I was actually able to sort of processize that and go, okay, now I know what writing at my best looks like. It actually becomes replicable.

I freaking love that. The line of this episode is, I became a writer. And, and the reason that's important is because that's the real win from the whole thing. Like, and, and I don't mean to minimize your forthcoming book, but in a, in a way it makes the book irrelevant. Um, you know, because you, whatever comes after is only going to be bigger and bigger and bigger. And yes, we hope the book does, again, does really well. It reminds me of this incred— one of my favorite stories. There's a guy named John Carmack who's a, a very famous computer programmer, game developer, because he wrote Doom. He was like, single-handedly wrote Doom, literally. And, um, he's a legend. And I read his autobiography and he talked about how by the time he would finish a version of Doom, he couldn't even stand to look at the code anymore because he had learned so much from the process. So it was like painful for him to even release a version of Doom because he hated it so much. But the real value there, of course, was he learned so much from each version of Doom that it was, it was always like the future was always brighter. And that's like, what an incredible way to live in a way, like talk about a quest.

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it really is. And, and here's the difference, I think, between, um, this, this kind of art versus business, uh, paradigm that the analogy that I've sort of been using. Is that business wins, at least in my experience, and I think in yours, tend to be sort of empty, right? They're, they're, they're, they're a dopamine rush when they hit. Um, but it's, it's rarely very lasting. The creative process has been a much more lasting, sustainable win from that. Like, you're right. Like, I carry this now with me, this process with me for the rest of my life. And it just, it just feels different than my first exit or, you know, some of the other athletic achievements even that I've done, because there was, there was a forge process, right? Like I had to become a writer, like, uh, you know, in, in a different way than like becoming an athlete. Like if you just, if you put in linear work, like you will eventually be an athlete, but there, there's, there was an earned the voice was earned is I think what is what I'm trying to say.

Well, I think that's actually probably the point we should wrap up with is number one, I would say that the very best in any pursuit treat it as a craft. I don't care if you're, you're like a traditional artist, musician, whatever. If you're a business person, if you're an athlete, whatever. And you know, simple example from my life is like the, I always say there's a difference between people who rock climb and rock climbers. I like to think I'm a rock climber because I treat it as a craft. It's a lifelong pursuit. And then the second piece, which you just said, is ultimately the most fulfilling thing you'll get out of your work, your life's work, whatever, is the mastery of the craft, not the, the products it produces.

I couldn't agree more. And, and you're right. You know, the, the reality is, is that I'm, I'm proud of this book and, and of course I wanted to sell copies because I'm human and that's why I wrote it in the first place. But if it never sells a single copy, like it's for me and becoming a writer in the process, like made it all worth it. And this is the thing, like, here's what I would leave the listeners with. Like, if you have a creative project inside of you, don't die with that still inside of you. Like everyone deserves to feel what it's like to birth something like this to the world. And so To Kevin's point, like, just get started. Yep.

Love it, brother. Well, this is really fun, fun topic.

Yeah, 100%, man. Always good. All right. We'll see you guys next time. Thanks for tuning in.