Designing Schools with Sabba Quidwai

We all know why schools need to change. We even know exactly what works and exactly what we need to be doing. But how we actually get there is where we're just stuck. And design thinking practices give you the structure to scaffold those conversations about how. Because when you don't have the structure of those design thinking practices, you're going to end up with way too much open ended, vague conversation that leads to no action.

Welcome to the Educator Podcast, which features trailblazers, pioneers and ed leaders who all started their careers in the classroom. Come hear about topics ranging from digital transformation, data literacy, blended learning, innovation, and honestly, everything in between. So excited to have you join our show. Okay, so big warm welcome to our guest today, Saba Kwidwai. Saba, thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to join you today.

Saba believes culture of innovation begins with culture of empathy. Her journey took her from being a high school teacher to education executive at Apple. In 2021, Dr. Quidway launched her own company, Designing the Future is a Place We Create, where she now works with organizations to use design thinking practices to reimagine what's possible. Her research focus is on using design thinking to prepare today's students with the mindsets and skills to thrive in the world. Earlier this year, Saba released a documentary, which is amazing by the way, based on her research. And she hosts the podcast Designing Schools and has been a wonderful mentor for me because I had no idea what I was doing.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to take our conversation from offline to online.

As you know, everyone who comes on the podcast who's joining me actually started in the classroom, was a classroom teacher. So to kick that off, what did you teach and where?

So I taught high school history and I taught a little bit, actually taught the social sciences, taught a little bit of everything, psychology, sociology, you know, all those things, world history, US History. And I worked at a ton of places because I graduated in 2007, months before the recession. And I literally was bouncing around to different schools year to year to year, which looking back now, I can appreciate because I got exposure to such different environments and different students and different classroom styles and things like that. But yeah, I bounced around a lot for the first five years.

That's always fun though, then that means you can teach everything everywhere. So did you ever expect to be doing what you did today when you were in the classroom?

Absolutely not. Not at all.

So what did you actually think you'd be doing now.

Instead I literally thought I would just be like when I got my first job. So I was one of those people like, you know, I'm sure like many of us, you went to school, got good grades, did everything I thought I was supposed to do, graduated with undergrad and a master's and a teaching credential, like did it all back to back. Got an incredible job. My first year as a teacher, like it was a dream. It was a high school where history and English co taught. And I remember sitting at that desk and thinking I was going to be here for the next 30 years and obviously didn't even last there more than nine months because it was a, because of the way it was structured with that collaboration. They had a 20 to 1 class size. And so when the budget cuts came about during the recession, the first thing to happen was increased class size which eliminated all of their first and second year teachers. And so after that has changed, you know, today's world, you know, you have to be able to define what makes you indispensable. And not just define it, but articulate it and showcase it for other people. And that was such a light bulb moment for me because once I realized that that's what I could do, I was like, okay, well I'm really good at xyz and I started pitching myself more in that context. And one of my strengths was merging literacy with history because that was my background. And when technology came into play, being able to leverage technology to integrate literacy even in history was such an in demand skill that when I could showcase that, hey, that's what I do really well. And I teach WR in this way to even your non AP students to get them onto like, you know, those tracks. It became, it was just sort of like that formula almost that I learned to be able to showcase myself. And then from there it just kind of like continued.

Well, this is a perfect transition, so thank you. Well, first off, I think we're a nice little like yin yang situation because.

To be really open, being able to say, I don't know has really opened up a lot of doors for me just to conversations that I otherwise would not have had. I'll give you a really great example. Just actually in March of this year I was still working on the editing for the documentary. I had no launch plan. And Devin Vadicka, who's been one of like my greatest mentors and like supporters throughout this process, asked me at south by Southwest, so what's your launch plan? And I was like, I don't have one and so, and, and because of that, he was like, okay, well, I've got an idea for you. Here goes. You know, and he was able to really come forward and be a great collaborative partner in being able to create an incredible launch for us just last month. And so being able to, I don't know, I need help. This is my strength in this area. This is not my strength in that area. Can open up so many doors that I've come to learn that as my superpower. I was listening to a podcast interview, actually, with Satya Nadella. This, like the CEO of Microsoft. And I guess, like, he shared as well, like, the importance of that, but it is also something that I think is easier to do later in your career than earlier in your career.

I totally agree. And I think that just it helps us to continue learning, changing, and leaning on each other. And I think that community aspect of doing this work is just invaluable.

Absolutely. And then your second one is, what are you ripening? So what I'm ripening is, okay, so I have a mantra that I live by, and it's innovation begins with empathy. And I think that's something that I'm constantly refining. Like, being able to listen to different voices, being able to anytime I'm creating something new, really making sure that it is user, like, focused, it's human centered, that whoever we're designing for, we recognize they're not all the same. We're taking in those different voices while also being able to understand, like, implementation concerns and, you know, just the current dynamics that different people might be dealing with. And so I would say that, like, that empathy piece is like constantly a work in progress.

I mean, it's always, it's really hard sometimes, especially when you're like, in the work, you're like, to be able to step back and say, okay, how do I give both those around me and myself some grace in this moment? So I appreciate it, especially if you're.

Excited about the work, if you're like, oh, my God, this is amazing, and everybody needs this and this, this and this. Like, you really have to be able to take yourself out of the equation and be able to be like, okay, while this may be valuable, how you articulate that value and how you connect that value to somebody else's values is what will make or break, I think the success of many initiatives, 100%.

I always say it's finding that access point with everyone. Because I think the thing is, you can. I always say with my kids, I can say the greatest idea ever. And I'M like, we're gonna do this, this. And they're like, so where do I fit into the equation? I'm like, there's gonna be donuts. And they're like, access point in. So what is your access point? So how do you actually engage in a way that resonates and that really other people can see taking that idea and moving it forward themselves? So we've jumped around a lot of different pieces at the beginning, which I'm super excited about, but I want to kind of spiral back to. We mentioned the documentary. We mentioned a whole lot of schooling. Getting your PhD. I'm just gonna stop that for a second. Is it PhD or doctorate?

It's EDD.

EDD. Okay. And also kind of going to get your EDD. So how and why did you decide to move from dissertation to documentary and just tell me a little bit about that process?

Yeah, I. So first of all, like, I did not feel very confident as a writer, even though people, like, will say the opposite. It's just, you know, one of those things that sometimes I think is ingrained in you from a young age. Like, I didn't do well in English classes, and so I just always never. I just never really saw myself as a great writer. And I wanted the story to be accessible. I actually went into my doctoral program knowing exactly the research I wanted to do, knowing exactly what I wanted to study. And I knew the big picture. Like, I had a vision for the story that I wanted to tell. I shared earlier how that cultures of innovation begin with empathy has become like my mantra. And I wanted to add a research layer to that sentence. And I knew that very few people would read 180 pages. There are definitely people that do. And I wanted to add a research layer to that sentence. And I knew that very few people would read 180 pages. There are definitely people that do. But I wanted it to be accessible. And, you know, I read. I really enjoy Jane McGonigal's work from institutes of the Future. And one of the things that she talks about often are like, signals of hope and how one of the characteristics of being a futurist and thinking about the future is being able to see positive things that are already happening about what you think could be. So she says, you pair what if with evidence of what's plausible and what's feasible and design. 39. Because it was a public school that was so important to me, that had really challenged a lot of the status quo that people think is the future was a story and like a signal of hope that I wanted to put out there. And I felt like you can talk about that, but because so much of it is new and isn't the norm, you need to visualize that. And I think when we talk about the future, we're so we use a lot of words, we use a lot of text, but if somebody can't see it, it's hard for them to believe it. And I think just the power of hearing from one educator to another, looking at their face, listening to their expression, hearing their tone, is so much more powerful than a sentence written in APA style, you know, in a very robotic way. And the documentary also allowed for a lot more contextualization. So we were able to interview people like Seth Godin, Eric Brynjolfsson, like Devin, another person called Duncan Mortal, the parents from the campus. Like, we were able to just merge together so many voices in a way that I think would have been difficult in text.

I totally agree. And I think that what's funny is I'm reflecting on some of my other podcast episodes and I feel like this comes out every single time of like, how do we move from theory to action? How do we enable others to see this and highlight those moments of excellence and that it's possible. But I think that like having the window in to be able to truly visualize not only the whole picture, but like what does the teacher do? What does the student do? What is the perspective of parents? You know, what is their experience after they leave? Because I think that a lot of times we can talk about it, but it doesn't become concrete and tangible until we see it in action. And I just want to highlight that Design 39 is also one of my favorite schools and visited a few times and I used to joke that I would ship my kids there if it wasn't so far like a flight. But I think that one of the big powers of design 39 and of your documentary is really showcasing the idea of learner centered instruction or learning that really like inquiry based design thinking mentality. For those listeners who have not experienced that or have not seen that, what would you actually define as learner centered education? And also how does that design thinking fit in to that similar model?

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's two things that I.

Learned from design that really like inquiry based design thinking mentality. For those listeners who have not experienced that or have not seen that, what would you actually define as learner centered education? And also how does that Design thinking fit in?

39 about what? About how they define learner centered That I think makes it fantastic. So one thing that they say that I love is that we're big learners and little learners. And I think that's a part of the equation that we forget a lot of the times is that teachers, administrators, leaders, support staff, you know, everybody to that similar model. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's two things that I learned from design is a learner. If you're a human, you're a learner. And I think we forget that the focus is varying. That's kind of the difference between student centered versus learner centered. In a learner centered model, every single person is considered a learner and we're all learning from each other. It's not just the teacher going to the student, it's the student going to the teacher, it's the neighbor coming to both people, it's the support staff. It's everybody is contributing in some way through that community. And then the second part of it is really leaning into what makes people unique. What are your strengths, what are your advantages, what are your skills and, and how do we move about how they define learner centered. That I think makes it you from one competency to another, to another, to another, and help you grow as an individual based on your skills and strengths. Instead of trying to categorize everyone as a one size fits all and I'm going to give everybody the same lesson in the same way. It's really being able to say, okay, this is like the standard I need to do. Like that's how they do it, right? Like this is a standard we need to do. But what is that group interested in? And it's going to vary from year to year. How do we lean into those interests? How do we lean into those strengths and design together in partnership and design thinking. So while, and you know whether it's learner centered project based learning, I mean, you take any kind of methodology that you want to kind of launch with the how is usually the part where people struggle. I always say, like, we all know why schools need to change. We even know exactly what works and exactly what we need to be doing. But how we actually get there is where we're just stuck. And design thinking practices give you the structure, I say, to scaffold those conversations about how. Because when you don't have the structure of those design thinking practices, you're going to end up with way too much open ended, vague conversation that leads to no action. It's ideas, it's venting, it's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And design thinking structures those conversations to get you to what would I say? Idea to impact very, very, very quickly. So you start to see the results of your work. And seeing those results of your work becomes the motivation for not just your willingness to continue, but also your self efficacy. That was a really, really big part of the research that emerged was that through engaging in these design thinking practices, they immediately started seeing the shift and that strengthened their self efficacy and their own belief about what they thought was possible for themselves because of the outcomes they were seeing.

A few different things I wanted to double highlight. So I think I love the idea that within the structure, we're really leading with the fact that everyone is a learner from and from the top to the bottom, right? Like from the students to the teachers to the parents, and that we're all learning together. And I think that's one of the things that really like jumps out from design 39 is that any student you talk to has taken a lot of time and thinking through how they learn, how they show their mastery, how they can work together, how they can leverage their own crown, if you will, what they're currently ripening. So really understanding that, which is something that many adults still struggle with being able to say, like, how do I learn best and how do I actually make this something that many adults still struggle with being able to say like, how do I learn best and how do I actually culture There needs to be really strategic supports and strategies set so that we can be successful. It doesn't just happen overnight. There's a lot of like change management. There are a lot of mindset shifts. There's a lot of are we crazy for trying this? You know, there's. There's a lot of those moments. And I think that. But looking at the long game of how do we continue that conversation and that it's not a copy and paste type idea, but really a learning journey in the way that we're implementing as well. So one of your quotes in your documentary was that you wanted to eradicate the industrial model in schools. So I kind of love that quote and I would just love to like, tell me more.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's just so interesting to see like how kids interact and the kinds of things they're interested in, their personalities and the hobbies and the ways in which they'll seek out information and learning outside of school versus what happens inside of school. And I think as time goes on, that gap between the outside world that they experience and the school world that they experience, which in many ways is both equal parts of their day is so drastically different that it's gotta go away. Like it's gotta change and we've got to move to something that is more relevant to help them contextualize and make meaning and navigate their own world. And you know, like, obviously like we all know this, like we can't predict tomorrow, right? The way perhaps you could have like that very traditional, you know, kind of like go to school, graduate, 40 hour work week, house, kids, you know, retirement, all like this like straight line that I think many like, you know, like I don't, I don't want to say everybody, but I think many in like the previous generation were able to experience, but this generation just isn't going to have that. And I think they recognize that. And I think that there's so much we're leaving for them to figure out on their own. Like every single day I feel like I read an article like Gen Z doesn't think college is worth it. Like employers think this. Like, you know, this number of students want more career conversations. Like there's an article almost every single day. But it's also really interesting to see how many of them are leveraging technology and figuring things out on their own. Where I think the problem lies is it creates an even bigger equity divide than you've ever had before. This is literally now a matter of who is able to learn independently versus who is not. Because essentially when you keep this very industrial, traditional model of school, what you're basically saying to kids is you're going to figure it out yourself. We're not going to help you do it right. Sure. We're going to give you some pieces here and there. It's not fair to say that schools don't do anything, but in terms of really preparing kids, my nephew just started, he's three and a half and he just started school and he got like a little letter saying he's going to be class of 2035. And it's like, wow, what is his world? He's only going to be 18. This is not his college graduation. He's just going to be graduating high school. What does the world, what does he need to be able to successfully make decisions for himself in 2035? California, for example, will have no more cars running on gas. And it's like wow, like, like, like what is his world? He's only going to be 18. Gasoline. Like it's 2035, all gasoline cars are going to be gone. Like only electric cars. Like what, what kind of, what do you need to be successful in that world, what opportunities does that open up for you and how do you prepare you? If he goes to school the same way I went to school, he's at such a disadvantage. And so that's really what we mean is like we need to move away from that industrial model to a more relevant model for today, which is going to look different for everyone. And Eric Brynjolfsson in the documentary gives a really good analogy of sort of like the steam engine. Right. Or like, you know, no electricity and how it took a generation for it to really redefine how factories were even working. So, you know, it's not like this is a new problem, but it is definitely one to pay attention to.

I totally agree. And I think that, you know, you're bringing in. It's really funny having this conversation with you because I had a conversation with Jean Claude about digital transformation and then Rebecca Kim about really thinking through strength based data literacy. So how do we build that understand understanding of our students talents and expertise and uniqueness that makes them who they are and then leveraging those in impactful ways to make sure they're success now and in the future.

Right.

And then met with Liz about blended learning and like the power of extending like we leverage technology to work through challenges in school, but then when we get home, sometimes the technology is very passive learning. So how do we extend those walls as well? So that, that's just that continued. I liked hearing what you said, where it's like we're kind of in both spaces the same amount of time, so how are we really like building that bridge between the two? So it's just funny thinking of the different conversations I've had and I'm like, wow, there's definitely some like serious highlights and connection points that can be made here. Really thinking through the importance of enabling our students to be successful in this more, you know, design thinking world. So actually like breaking through and breaking through challenges and having inquiry based learning and all of that good stuff and that learner led piece. One thing that I'd love to hear more about though, you know, we did start our conversation, our friendship around this. So I think that a lot of times we jump into different models or we jump into like what we want to do. What's our North Star of getting there, but then thinking about spiraling back to what are the competencies that teachers and students need to be successful in the space. And for those listening, that is how Saba and I met was chatting at a wine bar about competencies, which is one of my favorite things. So I'll let you take off there. But why are competencies so important with rolling out this work?

Well, let's begin with. I didn't even know that competencies were that important when rolling out certain types of work. And so, and this goes again, again, I really hope that there's one takeaway people have from this. It's the power of saying I don't know. Because literally it's how you're going to get your best answers that are going to inform your best work. So when I first met with you, I was telling you about this idea and you know, it goes into a lot of kind of what we were just talking about. I had really identified this white space of like, you know, sure, I'm going to continue that work of advocating for why schools need to evolve and how we can evolve. Right. That's not to say that we don't do things that are great, but there's ways we can evolve and become better and more relevant. But at the same time, you also recognize that you can't wait forever. Kids also need something now today to help them get ready. And so there was this white space kind of out there where there's a lot of resources around careers and what you can do. But if you yourself don't know how to articulate your skills and strengths, you haven't identified what those are. You don't have that self awareness. Right, which is competency number one. Then how do you even make sense of those resources and leverage them in the best way possible for you? I was telling you how I wanted to create a course for middle and high school students called Design youn How to Figure out what's Next as a way for them to just be able to go get the information and figure it out themselves. Because it's what they're doing anyways. So having a little bit of that support is a huge value add for them. You told me the first thing I need to do is create competencies. I would say about 80% of the course is now designed around that. Because the very first thing we created was the four competencies. We've got self awareness, goal setting, building a network, and content creation. The graphic that we have for the course is designed, designed around the competencies. We talk about the course in terms of those competencies. There's four modules to the course around those competencies. So that one conversation like that one little bit of insight from you informed the entire strategy, the marketing, the design, the development, the organization and everything that came about as a result. And I've Seen, it's really easy now for people to grasp onto because they can say like, oh, okay, I'm getting this, this, this and this. And it's really easy. Even though those words sometimes can be vague and the lessons within each module for each of those four competencies, once people see that outline, they're like, oh, okay, I totally get what this is. So just being able to take again a new idea, visualize it well, but also be able to help people articulate it, those competencies were a game changer for me. So thank you.

Yay. I'm so glad. I mean, it was just a pleasure getting to hang out too. We got introduced by Beth Holland. We'll just give her a nice little shout out right now. She's a great friend, matcher, a great.

Writer as well, you know. Really? She's one of the best writers that I know.

Agreed, agreed. And just great people. We'll just put that out there too. But I love the idea and I think the thing with competencies and why it kind of catches people is it's building that common language and so that you can actually reflect and assess where you're currently at and again find those access points of saying, so I'm like here with this competency, but I'm here with this competency and how can I build my skills around each one, starting in a place where I'm at as opposed to just jumping in. So it enables you to kind of like evaluate with a growth mindset of what you want to do and how you want to get there, while also highlighting your, like, your talents that you have already around some of those competencies as well. And so what do you think? So we've got the competencies, we've got the structures and supports, we're, you know, enabling people to see what's happening. What else do you think is missing element in designing schools?

I think the collaboration between the student and everybody else. I think a lot of times like I. So when I worked at Apple, I just got such interesting high level, like insights into different schools and how they work to just by the nature of the work that I did. So I used to work with a lot of leadership teams that would come to Apple park, would talk about the future of learning and the future of education. And it was like, you're really high level, right? So it's like your Superintendent, like your CTOs, your CIOs and people like that. And one of the things that I always thought was really fascinating was like, wow, these like 12 people around a room are going to sit here and their confidence or fear is going to determine what somebody gets access to. And I think as an adult, one of the. And again, this goes back to kind of like what we were sharing earlier. If you can't say, I'm not sure or I don't know, or if you can't just have that simple recognition that your world is so drastically different from the world that the kids that you're supporting are in and that you'll never be able to compete no matter how much you learn the technology, no matter how much you learn anything. Like, when I look at me and my younger sisters, so one of them is like 31, the other one is 29. And when I look at them and I see the difference just even in how we communicate. So I'm about to be 40. So even just the difference in how we communicate, it's not about me trying to be them, it's about me kind of working with them to be like, okay, if this is what you like best, then I'm going to try to do a little bit more of that. Or, wow, okay, that's a really cool way of doing this. I'm going to try to do this. It's not about me saying, like, why do you not ever pick up my phone? Or, like, why do you always, like, message me on Snapchat? Or why do you always do this? It does nothing but create tension. Like, I'm not going to build a great relationship. And so by being able to kind of recognize, like, wow, that's just how they communicate and how things are, you build bridges. And I think a lot of times students have so many of the answers. I do a lot of student interviews with districts, like facilitating student informational interviews. And it's fascinating to me how many times students have answers to questions I've heard in a leadership meeting from a group that I've, you know, been doing, like, a workshop with over here, while students are over here, teachers are over here, everyone is so siloed that if you just came together. And this is again, like, I feel like I keep saying, I don't want to say this all the time, but this is where those design thinking practices can really help you. And I also want to be really clear because we didn't say this earlier, but when we say design thinking, we're not just saying, like, your little five hexagons. I think it's one of the biggest misses in education. And how I see it being applied is people think if I just take the five hexagons let's do an empathy interview. Let's, let's ideate, let's, you know, prototype, boom, we're done. Because we jump through the five hexagons. That is not design thinking like that is the foundation. But each of those areas have so many different frameworks, exercises that are used in so many different ways to facilitate so many different conversations, help you bring together that interdisciplinary group of voices to better inform what you create. And I think once you do that, the pressure alone that is released is so. It feels so wonderful that you automatically feel like you have the space mentally and emotionally to actually move forward in this work with optimism and enthusiasm instead of feeling overwhelmed and burnt out. And so I think if we keep just expecting that, you know, one person in each area, especially a teacher, right, is going to do everything and that list is going to get longer and longer, you're going to be successful. It's, it's just a ridiculous assumption, to be honest. Like, it's just an impossible one. Whereas if you recognize that if we come together and collaborate, we'll have more success. Success that, like I said, just that mental and emotional burden that's lifted is tremendous.

I love that. I think that that is just super important to acknowledge and be open about and just say, you know, how can we come together to do this as a team? Which, again, thank you for transitioning me perfectly into our next section. I mean, I swear I didn't prep her, guys. Well, we did prep, but we didn't do this. But I think one of the things in education we've continually done for a long time is reinvent the wheel because we are working so hard and working in our little, like, zone that we don't have the time to look up and see how has somebody else done it, how has somebody else worked through similar challenges and really share those learnings with each other so that we can scale best practices as well as highlight moments of excellence. So with that in mind, other than the documentary, which I promise will be linked on the VIVI website, what other resources would you suggest folks to read, to look at, to explore, so that they can start their journey around either, you know, learner led instructional practices, or designing schools or design thinking, or all of the above? I see you thinking really hard.

That is really, really hard. But I will say, here's the first one. Your first step, before you even think about any of these things, is putting yourself in a mindset to believe that you are capable of doing it. Because if you don't even believe, if you don't have that self efficacy. You can't even take like no framework, no exercise, no nothing is even going to work for you. So one of the books recently that I have really come to love is imaginable by Jane McGonagall. And she says being a futurist, like.

Thinking about the future, like breaking through and breaking through challenges and having inquiry based learning and all of that good stuff. And that learner led piece. One thing that I'd love to hear more about though, you know, we did start our conversation, our friendship around this. So I think that a lot of times we jump into different models or we jump into like what we want to do.

What's our north is a human right. And I think it's so beautiful because she says when you don't do that, you end up with anxiety and fear and feeling overwhelmed. And so being able to have the confidence and the mindset to navigate ambiguity is literally like a human right, she says. And so I think her book is so practical, it's filled with these exercises which I really love. So she'll share something and then star.

Of getting there, but then thinking about spiraling back to what are the competencies that teachers and students need to be successful in the space. And for those listening, she'll have you do something.

And she's also a game designer, so there's just a whole fun element to it as well.

And that is how Saba and I met was chatting at a wine bar about competencies, which is one of my favorite things. So I'll let you take off there. But why are competencies so important?

In 2010 she led a game simulation essentially which was the 2020 pandemic. And so she has a real knack for thinking about these things. But she says you can do so based off of evidence, right? Like things that you're seeing in the world.

And with rolling out this work.

Well, let's begin with I didn't even know that competencies were that important when rolling out certain types of work. And so, and this goes again, again, I really hope that there's one takeaway people have from this. It's the power of saying I don't know because literally it's how you're going to get your best answers that are going to inform your best work. So her book is amazing. It's called Imaginable. The second one that I really like is so when I first met with you, I was telling you about this idea and you know, it goes into a lot of kind of, it's called Sprint and it's how to solve, how to solve big problem, how to take ideas and solve big problems in five days. Which sounds unreal but one of the reasons why I recommend it is because I feel like people use Google tools. Like if you look at the top what we were just talking about, I had really identified this white space of like you know sure, I'm going to continue that work. Of 10 ed tech tools that are used, I want to say eight of the ten are Google tools. Yet if you advocating for why schools need to evolve and how we can evolve. Right. That's not to say that we don't do things that are great but there's ways we can evolve and become better and more relevant. But at the same time you also recognize that you can't wait forever. And kids also need something now to go and look at the same schools and say how many of those same schools are using the strategies that Google uses to leverage the technology. I guarantee you it'd be a fraction like the tiniest percent. And so I recommend today to help them get ready. And so there was this white space kind of out there where there's a lot of resources around careers and what you can do is. But if you yourself don't know how to articulate book sprint for people to get insight into the methodology that Google came up with called the Sprint method. Showing you how you structure idea to impact your skills and strengths. You haven't identified what those are. You don't have that self awareness right. Which is competency number one. Then how do you even make sense of those resources and leverage them in the back in five days. Now granted their focus is product but when you read it you'll very quickly see how you can apply it to concepts and education as well. Especially around strategy. The best way possible for you. So I was telling you how I wanted to create a course for middle and high school students called Design youn How to Figure out what's Next as a way for them to just be able to go get g curriculum and things like that. So those are the two that just off of the top of my head today if you ask me tomorrow it might be different but today right now I find the pairing of those the information and figure it out themselves because it's what they're doing anyways. So having a little bit of that support two books really, really, really nice.

And will you say the name of the books again? So I got Sprint. And what was the name of the other one?

Sprint is the first one. The second one is Imaginable. Imaginable actually comes first is, you know, a huge value add for them. And you told me the first thing I need to do is create competencies. And I would say about 80% of the core is the is now designed around that. Because the very first thing we created was the imaginable is first because that's all about you, how to think like a futurist. And then the second one is sprint.

Awesome. Thank you so much. And I will have links to those on the VIVI site as well. So I always close out and I know you already have your post it because you showed it to me when we signed on, but I always close out with a post it promise because a lot of times we have these exciting conversations competent.

So we've got self awareness, goal setting, building a network and content creation. And the graphic that we have for the course is designed around the competencies. We talk about the course in terms of those competencies. There's four modules to the course around those competencies. So that one conversation like that, one little bit of insight from you, informed.

And then you go into the workday and you're like, okay, what am I going to do next? And so I'd love to hear from you. What do you promise to yourself to do tomorrow, next day, next week, next month? What's your post it promise?

I think my post it promise is going to be to create the entire strategy, the marketing, the design, the development, the organization and everything that came about as a result. And I've seen it's really easy now for people to grasp onto because they can say like, oh, okay, I'm getting this, this, this and this. And it's really easy. Even though those words sometimes can be vague. The lessons within each module, for each of those four competencies, a list of like my top five resources. And I have to say, people have asked me for this so much and I always say I'm gonna do it and I never do. And right now I'm working on like a like a 10 week blog post series like because I'm turning 40 and like, you know, when I started in 20, like 10 years ago, literally I was a classroom teacher. So you know, they always say like you underestimate what people say. Once people say, see that outline? They're like, oh, okay, I totally get what this is. So just being able to take again a new idea, visualize it well, but also be able to help people articulate it, those competencies were a game changer for me. So thank you.

Yay. I'm so glad. I mean it was just a pleasure getting to hang out too.

What you can do in a decade and you over under. You overestimate what you can do in a year. And it's crazy. Like so much of right now is me looking back over the last 10 years. And so that is my post it promise. I'm going to put together those five resources or like those just five things that I think would help people take advantage of making 2023 an amazing year.

Well, I'm just going to say thank you in advance because I'm probably got introduced by Beth Holland. We'll just give her a nice little shout out right now. She's a great friend matcher, a great.

Writer as well, you know. Really she's one of the best writers that I know.

Agreed, agreed. And just great people. We'll just put that out there too. But I probably gonna steal that you know those five and share them more broadly. My posted promise is to read Sprint and Imaginable because I actually haven't read either one of them and I love listening to books so I say read but really I'm gonna listen because I'm a mom of two toddlers and so that's my like I should be really.

Honest because people will ask.

Love the idea. And I think the thing with competencies and why it kind of catches people is it's building that common language and so that you can actually reflect and assess where you're currently at and again find those access points of saying so I'm like here with this competency but I'm here with this competency and how can I build my skills around each one?

Ask me how many how do you read so many books? I actually will YouTube a lot of them. These are two that I have read inside out. I actually keep them next to me as like a guide because I'm constantly referencing but I actually will YouTube interviews with a lot of authors and podcasts versus reading full books sometimes starting in.

A place where I'm at as opposed to just jumping in and then if.

I'm really intrigued I'll go buy it. But usually that's what I do.

So I was going to say we're getting secrets here. So it enables you to kind of like evaluate with a growth mindset of what you want to do and how you want to get there while also highlighting your like your talents that you have already around some of those competencies as well. And so what do you think folks? Saba secrets to hearing about so many books but thank you so, so much for joining today. Saba. This was so fun. So we've got the competencies, we've got the structures and supports. We're you know, enabling people to see. I knew it would be fun but this was great and thank you for sharing with us. Just, just I think it's really important for people to see the multi, the multiple aspects, what's happening, what else do you think is missing element in designing schools?

I think the collaboration between the student and everybody else. I think a lot of times like I. So when I worked at Apple I just got such interesting high level like.

Insights of really working towards designing schools and thinking through all of the structures.

And sites into different schools and how they worked just by the nature of the work that I did. So I used to work with a.

Lot of leadership supports the competencies, the engaging all stakeholder teams that would come.

To Apple park would talk about the future of learning and the future of.

Education and everything in between. Is there anything else you would like to share?

And it was like you're really high level, right? So it's like your Superintendent, like your CTOs, your CIOs. Oh, I mean, thank you. The only thing I would share is like look at the amazing things that happen once you say people like that. And one of the things that I always thought was really fascinating was like, wow, these like 12 people around a room are gonna sit here and their confidence or fear is going to determine what somebody gets access to. And I think as an adult one of the. And again this goes back to kind of like what we were sharing earlier. If you can't say I'm not sure or I don't know or if you can't just have that stuff, simple recognition that your world is so drastically different from I don't know and you're willing to open the door. Like I feel like if I hadn't said that I never would have had that such a deep conversation with you that led us to where we are today. So I'm just so grateful for you, for your friendship, for your advice and thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for joining and a big thank you to everyone in the car on a walk in the.

World that the kids that you're supporting are in and that you'll never be able to compete no matter how much you learn the technology, no matter how.

Much you learn anything like talk listening today we appreciate you as well and please reach out if you have any questions, comments, feedback.

When I look at me and my younger sisters, so one of them is like, 31. The other one is 29. And when I look at them and I see the difference just even in how we communicate. So I'm about to be 40. So even just the difference in how we communicate, it's not about me trying to be them, and it's about me kind of working with them to be like, okay, if this is what you like best, then I'm going to try to do a little bit more of that. Or, wow, okay, that's a really cool way of doing this. I'm going to try to do this. It's not about me saying, like, why do you not ever pick up my phone? Or, like, why do you always, like, message me on Snapchat? Or, why do you always do this? It does nothing but create tension. Like, I'm not going to build a great relationship. And so by being able to kind.

Of recognize, like, wow, everything in between. And check out some of these resources on the VIVI site. Thank you all.

Bye. That's just how they communicate and how things are. You build bridges. And I think a lot of times students have so many of the answers. I do a lot of student interviews with districts, like facilitating student informational interviews and. And it's fascinating to me how many times students have answers to questions I've heard in a leadership meeting from a group that I've, you know, been doing, like, a workshop with over here, while students are over here, teachers are over here, everyone is so siloed that if you just came together and this is again, like, I feel like I keep saying, I don't want to say this all the time, but this is where those design thinking practices can really help you. And I also want to be really clear because we didn't say this earlier, but when we say design thinking, we're not just saying, like, your little five hexagons. I think it's one of the biggest misses in education and how I see it being applied is people think, if I just take the five hexagons, let's do an empathy interview. Let's ideate, let's, you know, prototype, boom, we're done. Because we jumped through the five hexagons, that is not design thinking. Like, that is the foundation. But each of those areas have so many different frameworks, exercises that are used in so many different ways to facilitate so many different conversations, help you bring together that interdisciplinary group of voices to better inform what you create. And I think once you do that, the pressure alone that is released is so. It feels so wonderful that you automatically feel like you have the space mentally and emotionally to actually move forward in this work with optimism and enthusiasm instead of feeling overwhelmed and burnt out. And so I think if we keep just expecting that, you know, one person in each area, especially a teacher, right. Is going to do everything and that list is going to get longer and longer. You're going to be successful. It's just a ridiculous assumption, to be honest. Like, it's just an impossible one. Whereas if you recognize that if we come together and collaborate, we'll have more success, that, like I said, just that mental and emotional burden that's lifted is tremendous.

I love that. I think that that is just super important to acknowledge and be open about and just say, you know, how can we come together to do this as a team? Which again, thank you for transitioning me perfectly into our next section. I mean, I swear I didn't prep her, guys. Well, we did prep, but we didn't do this. But I think one of the things in education we've continually done for a long time is reinvent the wheel because we are working so hard and working in our little like zone that we don't have the time to look up and see how has somebody else done it, how has somebody else worked through similar challenges and really share those learnings with each other so that we can scale best practices as well as highlight moments of excellence. So with that in mind, other than the documentary, which I promise will be linked on the VIVI website, what other resources would you suggest folks to read, to look at, to explore so that they can start their journey around either, you know, learner led instructional practices or designing schools or design thinking or all of the above. I see you thinking, that is really hard.

That is really, really hard. But I will say, here's the first one. Your first step, before you even think about any of these things, is putting yourself in a mindset to believe that you are capable of doing it. Because if you don't even believe, if you don't have that self efficacy, you can't even take like no framework, no exercise, no nothing is even going to work for you. So one of the books recently that I have really come to love is imaginable by Jane McGonagall. And she says being a futurist, like thinking about the future is a human right. And I think it's so beautiful because she says when you don't do that, you end up with anxiety and fear and feeling overwhelmed. And so being able to have the confidence and the mindset to navigate ambiguity is Literally, like a human. Right. She says. And so I think her book is so practical. It's filled with these exercises, which I really love. So she'll share something and then she'll have you do something. And she's also a game designer, so there's just a whole fun element to it as well. And in 2010, she led a game simulation, essentially, which was the 2020 pandemic. And so she has a real knack for thinking about these things, but she says you can do so based off of evidence, right? Like things that you're seeing in the world. So her book is amazing. It's called Imaginable. The second one that I really like is. It's called Sprint, and it's how to Solve how to Solve Big Problem. How to Take Ideas and Solve Big Problems in five days. Which sounds unreal, but one of the reasons why I recommend it is because I feel like people use Google tools. Like, if you look at the top 10 EdTech tools that are used, I want to say eight of the 10 are Google tools. Yet if you were to go and look at the same schools and say how many of those same schools are using the strategies that Google uses to leverage the technology, I guarantee you it'd be a fraction, like the tiniest percent. And so I recommend the book Sprint for people to get insight into the methodology that Google came up with, called the Sprint method, showing you how you structure idea to impact in five days. Now, granted, their focus is product, but when you read it, you'll very quickly see how you can apply it to concepts and education as well, especially around strategy, curriculum, and things like that. So those are the two that just off of the top of my head today, if you ask me, tomorrow it might be different, but today, right now, I find the pairing of those.