431 - Reducing Risk While Supporting Sex Addicts in Church

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 431 and here joining me for this series is my co host, Mr. Rodney Wright. Rodney, it's good to see you again, friend. How are you doing?

Thank you, Nick. It's good to be with you. And I brought a special friend with me here today.

Yes, for those who are checking us out on the YouTube channel, they'll know what we're saying. But for those who aren't, you know, we're not going to tell them. We're going to make them go check out on YouTube an extra special background as if, you know, someone's watching over you, making sure you stay on point.

Yeah, yeah. Not to be offensive, but it's just the location I happen to find myself.

Yeah, well, we always play that game of like where in the world is Rodney? Right. Because it seem we know you travel a lot to speak at churches and parent groups and grateful for a little bit of time today to be a part of this series.

Yeah, I'm excited about this podcast really going out. I think, Hannah, that you're going to hear from Ashwell. She's really has a lot of courage, Nick, and she's really speaking to issues that are really real and helping churches. Again, as you mentioned on the back podcast, just Walking with Grace and Truth and a Heart to help, you know, and to equip churches on how to do this better. And she's doing great work in, in Scotland and reaching out across the pond, as we would say.

Yeah, Hannah Ashwell joined us live from Scotland and we found out it was evening there so it was nice for her to join us. But today we're starting a new series we're calling Healthy Churches and Healthy Pastors. Because I know you and I share a conviction, Rodney, that the church can and should be the safest place in the world for people to come for help. And right now that so often just isn't the case for a whole variety of reasons. Might be a lack of education, a lack of training, fear, just not on the radar for whatever reason. This can be a difficult area for pastors and churches. And so we want to do a four part series just talking about how churches can become that safe place. And one of those is navigating the risks that come with. We open this door to helping people who struggle with sexually compulsive behaviors. Or sexual addiction. We may also be saying yes to those who have become a sexual offender, who've crossed certain legal lines. And when it comes to that legal stuff, I mean, I know when I was a pastor that was like, whoa, that's a world I don't know what to do with. And so maybe in fear of those legal situations, we're hesitant to do anything. And I think today's conversation really helps pastors, leaders, churches see how we might navigate this in a way that lets us care for people and be aware of those risks.

Yeah. And once you get educated on something, once you get some resources or some, you know, steps to take, it reduces that anxiety and fear a little bit. And Hannah was really open just about the importance of not doing it alone. And we talk about ways you can connect with other resources in your community or within your church body to not carry this alone as a pastor. So if you take, you don't take anything away. Don't face this alone. Go get help.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that. Well, a little bit more about our guest, Hannah Ashwell. Hannah is a porn and sex expert in the United Kingdom. She runs two programs, Quit Porn and Quit Porn Faith. She specializes in working with people who look at indecent images of children. And part of her work involves advising churches around safeguarding and risk management of having sex offenders in their congregation. And so here is our conversation with Hannah Ashwell, balancing care and how to reduce the risk for churches while supporting sex addicts. Hannah Ashwell, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. It's great to have you on today.

Thanks. It's a real pleasure and a real honor to be here. Thank you.

And I've gotta admit, I'm always excited to have guests on who bring the UK accent. And so thank you for sharing today and letting me listen to the your wonderful accent as we talk.

Oh, that's all right. Thank you.

Well, since this is your first time on the Pure Desire podcast, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do.

So I am a therapist and I'm doing a PhD in trauma psychology. And I have a particular speciality in working with people with what I term kind of modern day addictions. So when we think of addictions, normally we think of drugs, crack cocaine, heroin, alcohol, smoking, and actually there's been a huge increase in other kinds of strongholds such as pornography, sexual behaviors, gambling, and actually even food. Either very, very restrictive calorie restrictive behaviors or over consumption of ultra processed foods. I have a diploma in porn and sex addiction, which I did as a Therapy, post qualifying qualification, and my wake up call around porn and sex was really on the first day of the course, we were asked the question, how much porn is too much porn? Now the general consensus was when it becomes a problem, when you're spending too much money on it, or when you're actually addicted to it. And actually from my perspective, it's the moment that thought or that desire comes into your head. That's where the problem starts. And if we put it in the context of the Bible, the first sin in the Bible was when the serpent put the thought into Eve's head. And that was where the behavior started. It started from the thought. So for me, it's very much about, let's not wait for these issues to become problems before we reach out for help.

Yeah, I remember I was on a podcast not too long ago and with a more of a secular source, which I'm on now and then, and he was asking that question of like, well, how much porn is a was okay? When is it a problem? And I said, honestly, the way I would term it is how much poison is okay? Like, is, is there a level of poison I can ingest that won't kill me? Well, I'm sure there is, but if I know it's poison, do I want any of it? And what we know about pornography and what it does to the brain and the body and the soul and relationships, like it's accurate to call it a poison. And so really we should ask the question in that kind of idea of how much poison am I okay with? And if we say, well, I don't really want to ingest poison at all, then maybe that should be our attitude about pornography and, and the role that we think it should have in our world and, and in the lives of people around us.

I think you're absolutely right. And I very often describe pornography as like being a silent gas that's, that's surrounding us, that's infiltrating churches, communities, families. It's poisoning young people, it's impacting children and it's there, but nobody's really acknowledging how suffocating it is and how damaging it is, particularly long term. And you know, it is like the silent gas of Satan that is just around us and continuing to grow and get bigger and bigger.

Yeah.

Well, Hannah, thank you for not being silent on this and being a healthy voice within our faith communities and our families of just helping educate and just want to say thank you for that. Another question I have for you. What are some of the most common misconceptions that churches have about supporting people who have sexual strongholds or sexual addictions, as some would say, especially those who have offended or are at risk of offending.

That is a really, really interesting question because very sadly the problem isn't being acknowledged as much as it should be, given that the statistics tell us that the difference between people who identify as Christian and non Christian, there is very little difference in the number of people who are affected by their pornography use. A very sad common theme I hear is we don't have that problem here.

Which why do you think there's. Let me interrupt you real quick. Why do you think there's little difference between those of faith believers in Christ and those without? Why do you think there's little difference in culture?

A lot of it is down to self reporting when you look at it from an academic angle and the statistics. But I think apparently there's like 70% of Christians admit that they use pornography and about 82% of non Christians admit that they use pornography. So there. And obviously a lot of that is down to self reporting and the stigma attached to it. But you know something I hear quite a bit from churches is we don't have that problem here and brushing it under the carpet really isn't going to help. But actually looking at it from the perspective of offending behavior, possession of indecent images of children and child sexual abuse material is the fastest growing crime in the uk, more than drugs and human trafficking. And actually one of the reasons for that is that if you have some drugs, you can sell them and then you've sold them and they're not yours anymore. If you have indecent images of children, you can sell them and then you can sell them again, and then you can sell them again and the people that you've sold them to can go on to sell them. So it's really, really perpetuating. And you know, according to the Internet Watch foundation and the National Crime Agency, you know, this problem is absolutely enormous as the fastest growing crime. And from a law enforcement perspective, there just isn't the resources to keep up with what's going on. And the statistics really tell us that Christians are not immune to this kind of thing, which is very, very sad. But actually back to the question is in, in terms of supporting people, and I always say to pastors, don't bear this burden yourself. Share it with your eldership team, share it with anybody who is relevant to share it with. And actually involve outside agencies as well. So involve the local authority, local safeguarding board, involve the Multi agency public protection involve law enforcement. You know, you don't have to do this alone. And it's actually very dangerous from an accountability point of view to kind of keep this a secret.

Right?

Yeah, I think you're right on Hannah. That many churches and pastors feel like if we go down this road, we're just opening Pandora's box. And, and churches often view themselves as being kind of a self sustained unit, an enclave from society, come here and worship and we're a family. And so anything we do like we have to be the source or the end. All of it and sexuality and addiction and pornography kind of feels like this Pandora's box of if, if we open that box, like there's so many things that leads to and we don't know how to handle that. And so our response can be, well, let's just not go there. And yet what you're just saying, there are great resources out there. There are groups and ministries and law enforcement agencies that can help educate you. You. I mean, we're continually at pure desire referring churches to legal and tax law so a church can understand what are some of the policies. And these aren't like difficult, complex algorithms. It's what are some basic policies we can put in place that protect people, protect children and allow us to do this ministry. And then, oh, by the way, the vast majority of people that need help, haven't done anything illegal, are not offenders, are not endangering children. And so sometimes out of fear of the extremes, we don't help the majority that are just saying, I've got a compulsive behavior I don't know what to do with. And I think the church is really missing a golden opportunity there to minister to that group.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you look at having open conversations that can be a real catalyst to people coming forward to get the help that they need.

Yeah, absolutely. How would you say that churches could create a culture of openness and accountability that just what we're saying that encourages individuals to seek help without compromising the safety of the wider congregation.

I think honest conversations. And if you look, I mean, I, you know, what I do is I compare it to suicide. So the biggest prevention of suicide is not public health campaigns, it's not adverts and commercials on tv. It's actually open conversations that break down the stigma and allow people who are maybe thinking about suicide or having suicidal ideations or have even got to the point where they have made a plan to end their own life. And the one thing that can really help prevent that happening is to be able to have honest conversations with somebody that isn't dramatic, who isn't going to get emotional. And it's very, very hard because this is such a difficult subject to talk about. It is very hard. But I think that the biggest key is honest conversations. And that's where role of small groups, things like that, accountability, partners, and all of those things can be really, really helpful. And I found from my own experience that there is something. Well, it's, it's called the snowball effect. If one person puts their hand up and says, this is a real struggle for me, other people will come forward.

Yeah, turning our head isn't helping. So being honest, even in the qpr, which is question, persuade and refer in the suicide prevention, hey, are you thinking suicidal thoughts? Do you have a plan? That's actually very helpful. And so I, I just wanted to say thank you so much because I, I affirm that when you bring the conversation forward, is this an issue? There's help out there. And pointing people toward resources in this way, I think is very, very helpful.

A lot of it is down to the fear, isn't it? If you don't know what's going to happen, you're less likely to actually divulge that this is a problem for you.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. And at the same time, escalation is a very real thing, that very few, I've never met someone that set out to do something illegal or abuse another person. But if you hear their whole story, you find out there was a long journey of escalation, that one thing led to another and it got deeper and further than they ever meant to go. And as churches, I think if we see that, if we could help someone who is, maybe they're saying, well, I only view pornography once in a while. Is it that big of a deal? Well, we recognize it's what it could grow to, and we want to help you long before it becomes something dangerous or illegal. And for some, it has gone to that place. And we can still help them. We can have resources. But again, as I said earlier, for the vast majority, they're somewhere earlier on in the escalation. And not everybody who've used porn will end up going to someplace that's illegal or abusive. But some do. And if we recognize we as faith communities could have a role in preventing that by having the open conversations, by being a place of grace, then we won't have the outcome where it does get particularly difficult and messy because it's gone so far. But it starts in these basic things like open conversations.

And you're absolutely right. If you compare it to the journey of drugs. Somebody who's abusing drugs doesn't suddenly wake up one morning and go, hey, I'm going to inject heroin today. It starts off very low level. It will start off with alcohol, it will start off with C cigarettes. It will then move on to cannabis and maybe, you know, a little bit of cocaine before it actually gets to the point of, you know, what we would consider a hard drug. We don't really use that terminology anymore. But that it doesn't start off with somebody putting a needle into their arm. There is a very categorical process to that point. And you're absolutely right. In the majority of cases involving illegal pornography, it's that kind of journey. Obviously there are people who are very forensically mentally ill who don't believe that child sexual abuse material is wrong. And that's a very different element of people to work with. You know, they need very, very specialist help, very specialist forensic help. And the risks are much higher because they genuinely don't believe that they're doing something wrong. But the people that I've supported in churches who have actually gone through the criminal justice system for possession of indecent images of children, the one thing that they all say is, how did I get to this point? How did I get here?

Yeah.

And actually being able to map it out is really important for them to see that they didn't just wake up one morning and do it.

Yeah. Another question, and I just recently saw something. I have a friend who's a lawyer and goes stands with victims who've been abused. And so they do a lot to help churches that this is a problem or to have protocols to help. So I'm interested to hear this with you. What are specific safeguarding protocols that should be in place when a known sex offender or someone with a history of viewing illegal content wants to be a part of a faith community?

I think that the biggest thing is use your common sense. Don't just assume that because they say they're okay and they're not doing anything wrong that that's the case. It's very important that it's assessed individually on a case to case basis. I think having protocols and having safeguarding contracts and all of the other things you can put in place are really good. But don't just blueprint one to the next person, to the next person, to the next person. It has to be a very individualized plan based on the perceived risks and the needs of that particular person. That isn't a one size fits all approach in this case. And again, back to what I said before is it's important to not just keep this within the church, but to actually utilize specialist agencies that can help, you know, legal advice and that kind of thing. And, you know, like you said, that there are faith organizations who are very well versed on this kind of thing, and it is a growing issue in churches, but it cannot be treated as a one size fits all approach.

Yeah, I, I, I'm up here in Arizona and I go to a Franciscan renewal center. And I appreciate just in the men's restrooms above the urinals, they'll just have signs about abuse. Or if this is happening, here's a number to call. And I've seen other churches where they do that for victims of physical abuse as well as sexual abuse. But I just love that there's more openness about honesty and not only, you know, the safeguarding of the individual hurting, but, but again, protocols for offenders as well.

Yeah, I think reaching out to experts is key and to understanding. When I was a pastor, we had a couple of sex offenders who wanted to be a part of our recovery groups, wanted to attend church. And in that instance, where the legal issues are already being worked out through the courts, they have a parole officer, they have a specific release plan, and all you need to do really is ask their parole officer, like, what are the conditions of their release? What do they, you know, what's required of them if they're on our property? What are the things that are expected of us? And very often, kind of like you said, Hannah, it was on an individual basis that some had very restrictive plans, others were more open. And so we would follow those in terms of our public gatherings. And then when we ran groups for those who were struggling, those were always on a different night of the week when which was possible in our church. That was the only group at the church. So there was no other danger of them being with anyone else except the group that was there in the church for that purpose. And I know other churches have had to institute parts of the building that are maybe locked off from another part if there's multiple ministries happening so that the recovery groups can happen and someone with a history of offending or with some kind of a parole requirement could still attend. And I think if you just are aware of that, there are ways that this can work. There are churches that have navigated can maybe relieve you of some of that stigma of, oh my gosh, this person is so Scary and dangerous. We can't even have them on our campus. Okay. The instances of that are, in my opinion, so rare that the person who does want to come for help, there's ways you can work within it to keep them in a group and also keep the rest of the congregation feeling safe and supported, even while we're offering that ministry for that individual.

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, definitely.

And their heart and their disposition sure make a difference, too. Their willingness to submit and whatever it takes here to help is a lot of discernment there.

Yeah.

I think the level of remorse as well. And actually, you know, you want to see actions as well as words, and it's really, really important that that is taken into consideration, that there needs to be continual assessment of what. What evidence does that person give us that they are making an effort to work through this. Like, I refuse to work with anybody that won't put covenant eyes on their phone because I worked with a guy last year, and his big excuse is like, oh, oh, it's too expensive. You know, it's like, I don't know, 14amonth or something. But, you know, I. I can't work with people that make excuses. It's just beyond my capacity now. And actually, you either want to do this and you want to do it 100 or just don't my time. And, you know, you want people taking action and not just being told what to do, but saying, what can I do to help myself in this journey?

So in your work, Hannah, you're a part of two groups that you run. One, quit Porn and then Quit Porn Faith. And so from your work with Quit Porn Faith, as you work with churches and pastors, how do you help them balance grace and restoration with the very real need for boundaries and risk management as a, you know, a faith institution at a place children and families are coming, how do you balance those two components?

I think, first of all, we have to remember that we're all sinners, and that is really important when it comes to grace. However, you know, sexual sin is so stigmatized, particularly if it involves children or vulnerable adults or committing sexual offenses. So that. That, you know, that's really important to remember. But one of the things that we have an ability to do very easily and very well is we categorize sin in the same way that the criminal justice system does, you know, good sin and bad sin and that kind of thing. And actually, that's not our role, and that's something that we really need to unlearn to do. We have to remember that in these offenses there are victims and those victims are seriously impacted long term by their experiences. And that is very, very difficult for a lot of people to get their head around, particularly if there are people in the church who have lived experience of this kind of, you know, treatment. And the other thing that we also need to remember is that with the increase in child sexual abuse material on the Internet, rapidly, rapidly increasing in 5, 10, 15 years time, our churches are going to be full of people in our congregations that have perhaps come to Christ with this baggage. And we have to be prepared for that. I think that what I would say is that if you can't ensure a hundred percent rigorous safety and accountability, you really need to question whether or not it's appropriate to actually have people with these experiences of offending in your congregation or whether or not you just walk alongside them to find somewhere that's a little bit more suitable to their needs. And again, as I've said, you know, is there a genuine desire for healing and a true heart of repentance? Because that needs to factor into your decision making as well. You know, we want to be open, we want to be welcoming, but at the same time we do have to balance that with so many other factors which are really important. And again, you know, like I said, relying on external agencies as well and, and really asking for truthful transparency from the person that you're working with.

And seeing as a leader, our obligation to protect the vulnerable, that's our first obligation, is their safety and well being. And so a point, a point well made there.

Yeah. I think what you said earlier, Hannah, about not categorizing sin is very important because when we hear a phrase, you know, in the United States would be they're a sexual offender and they've had, they're registered sex offender, that gives us a category like, oh my goodness, who's that person? And I remember early in my pastoral career, I met with a young guy, he was married, he had two kids, and he met with me to say, I'm obligated to let you know I'm a registered sex offender. And I would have had no idea. I'm like, well, thank you for your honesty and tell me the story. And as he shared a story, it was actually quite heartbreaking because as a young adult, he'd had a dating relationship with an older teen girl and he acknowledged they'd crossed some physical lines and he'd taken it further than he should have and hadn't been aware of, you know, age issues and legalities in in that situation. But the, the relationship had gone sour and a lot of accusations had been made by the, the gal and her family. And I, you know, I wasn't there to decide who was right and wrong. But just as he was telling the story, it was so normal. Like, I could totally have seen myself in a different life and falling into the same kind of pattern having that happen. And now he's got stamped on him, registered sex offender, and had we just treated him like, oh, well, we don't know what to do with you. You can't attend here. I think it would have really been unfair to him. When there was a story here of a man who now sincerely wanted to follow the Lord, was raising a family and still had this, you know, probably a fair verdict against him, but that was hanging over his head. And I could tell there was a lot of shame attached to it. And so it was a moment for me to just see, oh, okay, we need to treat everyone as a person. We need to understand their story. And in some cases there may be a very active safety concern, and other times it might be a part of their story that is not a concern or issue in that same way. And what you were just saying about the growth of child sex material that's out there and it's illegal and is landing people in jail, I just see so many ways in which the Internet now is trying to sell that genre of barely legal and under 18, and, you know, a guy who's in a dopamine fueled, you know, porn binge clicks on something he shouldn't, and he could be in danger then of being arrested and labeled like that for a long, long time when we would do well. And I'm not in any way trying to minimize or rationalize that behavior. I mean, I'm grateful that we have laws that declare at least something illegal in our country because there is too much of an anything goes. But in that case, that man who clicked on something or downloaded something probably isn't that different then the guy who's been married 20 years and is looking at porn every couple of months. They just happen to have gotten into something a little bit different. And the one we've labeled as very dangerous and the other we kind of overlook. And so how could we, as churches have a heart for both? How could we realize the one who made that choice really isn't that different than the rest of us that are all sinners and provide this ministry? So, yes, we need to have some parameters in place. We need to have helpful policies. But I think when we see that underneath it, there's a person that has a story, and if we're willing to hear the story, it might really change the way that we, we help that individual.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that a very important factor in this is actually the spouse as well. And the impact that pornography, whether it's illegal material or non illegal material, the impact that that has on spouses and the betrayal, trauma and all of those things associated with the poison of pornography in a relationship. And it's very, very difficult for women because they don't know where to go. They feel that it's their fault and they don't want to show their husband in a bad light and those kinds of things. And then there's also the emerging issue of women themselves as consumers of pornography. And you know, very, very worryingly, pornography that is specifically marketed at women and masturbation and things like that is now referred to as self care in women's magazines that you can just buy in the grocery store. So they don't even call it pornography and masturbation. In, in the sphere of women, it's, it's referred to as self care. And that's the kind of thing our young people are being exposed to. To the fact that it is so normalized now. You know, it's very, very worrying. And churches have to be equipped to be able to confront these issues.

Yeah, that gets me pretty passionate about churches being healthy sex educators or at least helping their parents know how to educate their kids starting younger and giving them healthy, what's good and healthy about human sexuality. But I'm going to pivot off that and go to this next question. How should church leaders respond to a member? If a member discloses a struggle with illegal sexual behavior or pornographic content involving children, what are their immediate and long term steps? And I know you're from Scotland and Edinburgh, we here in the States, but I assume they're pretty similar in how we would respond.

The first thing and the most important thing is are there any immediate risks to children? So looking at the type of offending and whether or not there is immediate or significant risk, and it really is a judgment call with whether or not you share that information with law enforcement. And that is very, you know, that is the most important thing. And then the next thing that's really crucial is certainly as a pastor, don't just hold on to this yourself. It's very important that you share it with your eldership team and with those in the church who are trusted members of the community. Because you cannot bear this burden yourself and it's not right. And you have to have your own level of accountability as well. And again, back to getting support from external organizations, that is absolutely crucial, definitely. And then another thing that is really helpful is to try and get the person engaged with specialist therapy. And often church therapy provision isn't a specialist enough for this particular need, particularly if there is offending behavior. And what I found works is it's very nice of the church to say, oh, we'll pay for you to go to therapy, but actually that doesn't put any onus on the person themselves. So it's maybe coming to the agreement of we pay a proportion of your therapy and you pay the rest of the therapy is quite good. And then actually sitting down and saying, you know, we're going to have a contract of membership and attendance with you, and these are the rules that we expect you to stick to. You know, even things like having covenant eyes on your phone and having an accountability partner and regular meetings. And quite often accountability people say it's about, oh, how are you? Have you had a good week? And actually accountability is about asking difficult, uncomfortable questions. So you have to ensure that the, the people around this particular person have got the ability to have these really awkward conversations and who aren't going to be phased and who can actually be understanding and pragmatic as well as being boundaried around what is acceptable in the church and what isn't. And, you know, even if it's something like they hand over their mobile phone and they get a phone that isn't a smartphone, you know, the Bible instructs us to cut off our right hand if it causes us to sin, or our left hand, I can't remember which one it is. That's this in practice.

Hyperbole. Right, we know it's hyperbole. Right. But it's making a point, point. Do whatever it takes.

Exactly. And you know, we have to put biblical wisdom into practice in so many areas of our lives. And then long term, you know, it's very easy to just kind of float along going, oh, you know, it's very nice. Now he's going to therapy and he's going, having meetings and all that. But it's really important to stay on the ball all of the time and monitor the situation and continually assess is this working for us? You know, is this safe for us? And is this the right environment for that particular person to be in? Because it's not okay to continue along that path if it's really not okay. For them and for the church.

Yeah. That's such wisdom, Hannah, that churches have to have the humility to acknowledge their limitations. And maybe you do have groups for people who are in recovery and, and there's some good ministry happening there, but there may be circumstances, there might be someone with legal issues that comes in where you're able to say, you know, we love you and we care for you, and part of us caring for you. Well, is to acknowledge that we're not equipped with the kind of issues that you're facing and we want to support you to get connected to a resource or a ministry or an organization that is equipped to do this well, so that you can, you can get better and recover and not have us bumbling along with something we're really not equipped to do. You know, and going back to the question, you know, if someone discloses illegal behavior, there's kind of the two sides of if it's illegal behavior they've already been convicted of, you're in a much safer place as a church of just following their parole plan or what's been put on them. If they're disclosing something that they've never been prosecuted for or taken legally. You do have some question marks there. You know, here in the United States, there is by and large priest penitent privilege if that's been disclosed directly to a pastor or a full time minister in kind of a confession sort. But if it's come out that something was said in a small group, if there's a member in the church that's aware of it, most of us in those cases are mandatory reporters. But those cases are all different state to state here in the US and so we really encourage a staff member or a group leader to have a connection to a local legal professional that you could call and say, here's a situation that's come up. Are we mandatory reporters? Do we need to require that person to report? Or we'll do it because in some cases we've had this come up all the time because people will call Pure desire. We're seen as an expert. And our staff member, Rich Morris sometimes says, I spend all morning helping churches navigate legal calls. And we're happy to do that. But so often the answer is, hey, you need to contact a legal professional in your state who knows the state law. And sometimes they're consulted and the lawyer says, no, that's, you know, that is not a mandatory reporting situation. Here's how I would handle that. And other times they'll say, yes, this is a situation, you must report that to authorities. And so back to your point, Hannah, it's just really appealing to professionals and experts and a church knowing we don't have to do this alone. And if situations come up that are outside of our experience, we're going to go ask someone who knows and not letting that prevent us from doing all of the really good work we can do in providing support for spouses and providing group ministry, in providing education. I'm thinking of a quote here of like, don't let all that you can't do keep you from doing what you can do. And in, in this area, I think that principle just applies in so many ways.

And I suppose one of the really good things about what you've just said is that sometimes you need somebody else to make that decision for you. You need somebody else to say, right, you have to contact law enforcement or you. You don't have to contact law enforcement. And just to be able to. It's not, not quite passing the buck, but if you've handed it on and if you've gone through the right procedures and you know that you've done the correct thing, then to a certain extent, you've relinquished responsibility for making that decision because you've had advice on the decision to make, which actually must be quite a relief when you're in that position.

Yeah. And sometimes the experts we're reaching out to are outside of our faith. And so I think that can be difficult for pastors because they feel like our faith should have the answer to every problem and in the world that's ever existed. And I'm very much a believer in Christ and grateful for my faith, but sometimes I want a good mechanic for my car. Faith based or not faith based? Does he understand water pumps? And can he put one on correctly? So there are pieces where just giving ministers permission to find that expert, even if it's outside of the faith bubble, that can help.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Well, I've said that to people as a pastor to say, I can help as a pastor care for your heart, I can guide you to scriptures, I can, I can encourage you through prayer. But if there's like a relational issue in their marriage that I've never dealt with and I'm really not experienced, I say you're going to need to go to a marriage counselor that's been trained in this and they're going to care for your relationship, even while I'm caring for your heart. And I think there are ways that churches could say that to someone battling a particular sexual struggle. Or maybe entering into illegal behaviors, like I can't counsel you what to do in a legal setting, I don't have the answers, but I can care for your heart. I can care for where you're at as a human, as a person, and just say, I'm here to support you and care for you, even while you maybe take some necessary legal steps. And it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's just recognizing as a church or as a pastor, what role can I play in supporting someone that maybe has to face some really difficult stuff because of their behaviors and choices?

Yeah.

So, Hannah, as you've worked with churches and pastors, do you have maybe a real world example that you could share with us? And obviously not with any disclosure, you know, nothing confidential, but where you've seen a church kind of navigate this well to help someone who's maybe in a legal situation or has, you know, a legal issue, and yet they're still being cared for by the church in this area of sexuality.

Yeah, I've got three. They're quite short and very different. But it's important that, that I kind of talk to you about the three of them. So the first one was a long term church member who was convicted of possession of indecent images of children. And he didn't get a custodial sentence, but he was placed on the sex offenders register for five years. And in that particular church, there was robust support from the elders, from the pastor. They did everything by the book, as I've said. They engaged in that, you know, they engaged with, you know, specialist organizations to get the advice that they needed to do the work well within the church. And then they were also to support him, to engage in specialist counseling because they knew that they didn't have the capacity to work on that side of things. And I think that was actually a really good way of doing it because I think sometimes as Christians, we want to do it all. You know, we want to take it all on and actually to be able to step back and say, look, that is way beyond our capability was a really, really good decision. And then there was a very, very small church again in the last couple of years who had somebody who was a convicted sex offender who actually came to faith in prison. So when he was coming up to his release, the prison service actually worked really closely with the church in the run up to his release to, to make aware of what was going on and to really minimize the risk because of the nature of his offenses. He's not allowed to be Alone with any females, adult or child females. And also part of his licensing conditions in the community that is the same. He's not allowed to knowingly and deliberately be alone with any females. So there are people within the church that are alongside him at services and events and community. He is allowed to attend community events, but he has to have a minimum of two elders with him the whole time. And then another situation was an older Christian man who had quite a significant and lengthy history of sexual offending included with children, including contact offenses. And actually he was advised that he could go to church and he could be part of a church community, but he had to go to a service at 8 in the morning, which is very much a quiet contemplative service rather than a family service. And actually that was very good because children don't attend that service. But he's not allowed to be part of any ministry involving children. He's allowed to go to men's breakfasts and men's groups. He can't go to small groups that are in the homes of families or any outreach where children are going to be present. So again, back to what I said at the start. It is very much about looking at these situations on a case by case basis and really assessing the risks. The risks to our own church community, but also the risks to that person as well.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's. That discernment piece is so important. And, and just walking with people, each of these different cases that you brought up. Yeah.

And I, I love in those scenarios, Hannah, that every church, you said it, they really did it by the book. Like, they understood what was needed, what was required, and in their heart and desire to support that person and the congregation, they did it by the book. They faced it, they walked through it. And in those situations, they didn't just turn the other way or overlook it or ignore it. And unfortunately, we are hearing these horrific stories come out where someone who was at a camp year in and year out and everybody had some weird vibes and suspicions, but we all just, well, that's just, you know, so and so. And they're like, like, well, that's where we've gotten into trouble when we just kind of act like, well, we all know each other and it'll be fine. And what I hear you saying is, no, we face these situations head on with grace and truth. We do what's required of us to keep them in the congregation safe. And if we do, there is a way that we can care for both and we can help this person find the support they need while still creating a safe place for our church to worship and come together around our faith. And, and I think that's my encouragement to pastors say there, there are things we can do to face this and help people. And then, like you said so well, Hannah, throughout this episode, if you run into a situation that is particularly sticky or messy and you're not sure what to do, just acknowledge that. And, and in humility, say, we're not the right place right now to help you through this because we're just not equipped. And that would actually be a gracious thing to do for both you and for that individual.

Yeah, but it's a very hard decision to make, isn't it? Especially, like I said, when we want, you know, our heart is in helping people and walking alongside people in difficulty.

Yeah, yeah.

Hannah, just as a ending question here, many leaders, pastors, church members, this can feel like an overwhelming task. Like it's got a yucky. There's a yucky factor to this. It's not fun. And I again commend you for your courage here. But the legal issues or safety issues regarding sexual addiction could feel a little too much to face. What encouragement or direction would you give would you offer that person as we wrap up today? You know, the leader. I know I've had to report and make the call to report and walk with people. In one case, it was not true, but again, it was somebody that we knew, trusted, but we followed the protocol because it was the right thing to do. And. But it still creates that yucky feeling. And so sometimes it's easier to just act like it's not my church, as you said earlier. You know, what, what encouragement would you give a leader, a pastor today?

You know, you're absolutely right. This is not a nice situation to deal with and it is incredibly time consuming. It's incredibly impacting, you know, will massively impact your workload if you are supporting somebody in your congregation like this, this. But, you know, like I said, don't, don't bear this burden alone. Share it with those around you and share it with your eldership team. And don't, don't be fearful of encouraging people that are going through this situation to seek help outside of the church. But again, be discerning in that. So, you know, for instance, there's organization called Sex Addicts Anonymous, and they obviously do great work, but, you know, they don't look at things from a Christian angle. And their view is very much, it's okay to look at pornography as long as it doesn't cross these lines. And actually we have to remember that we're told not to conform to the ways of the world. So if you are going to encourage your particular person that you're working with to seek help outside, just be really discerning that they're linked up with a faith based specialist organization or respect, you know, a faith based or specialist therapist or counselor so that you're not bearing the burden alone and really try and plug into resources around you to help you support this person, but also to support yourself as well.

Yeah, I think there's such wisdom there. And, and having a good list of counselors and therapists and support organizations on a, a short list. And if you're not aware of what those would be in your community, maybe that's your starting point after hearing this podcast, is to do some research in your town, city, state of like, who, who in my area is doing this and who can I have ready to support me as needed? And, and at a personal level, I think there was also such wisdom in what you said about being aware of how time consuming this can be. And, and as a pastor, not feeling like we have to take all that on. In the couple of cases in my church that I mentioned where there was a need for someone to come who was on parole and needed supervision, I knew that person couldn't be me and my condition. Well, let me reach out to some of the men that I think would have a heart for this and see if they're available. And so I made a few calls and in both cases found a man who said, oh, because they knew the situation and the person and they said I would be happy to support them in this way. And if they ever want to attend church, all they have to do is call me and I'll be there with them. And that. That for me then as a pastor was like, great, I can provide support by linking the individual in need with a mature believer who wanted to provide that support. And then I as a pastor could just kind of, you know, stay in touch with the mature believer. Hey, how's it going? How are they doing? Any support you need? And it became more of a touch base for me and not consuming my time. And then to that, you know, in both cases, the individual who was linked to them, they really felt encouraged, like, hey, I'm getting to use my time and energy to support this person, this brother in Christ who's going through something hard. And it was a blessing to them. You know, if I'd have taken it on, if I'm honest, it would have been a burden to me. It went like, okay, I got to walk around with so and so and I got to make sure they're going to the right place and at the right time. And I would have been burdened, but instead I got to be watch someone else be blessed by how they could minister to another believer. So just keep that in mind. You don't have to do it all. And in fact, in not doing it all, you might be blessing others that would like the opportunity to care for someone in need, to care for someone that needs support. And it would be a joy for them to do that. So keep that in mind as well.

Yeah.

Anna, can I ask a quick follow up question? What are you seeing in Scotland that churches are doing proactively to provide healthy sex education? Are you seeing anything there or the uk?

Yeah, I mean, sex education with children and young people in schools doesn't really align with faith beliefs. So it's even more important for churches to really embrace this. I mean, I grew up in the purity culture and we know now, particularly for women, how psychologically damaging that has been. You know, there's a lot of evidence around that. But I think educating young people and not actually giving them the message that porn is bad, but really trying to talk to them about there is a better option. You know, God's design for sex is not the stuff that is coming to you through a screen. And actually purity is about, you know, saving yourself for your spouse. And the hardest thing I hear from young people is, I'll stop when I get married. It's okay to look at porn. I'll stop when I get married. And they're actually really deluding themselves. One of the main reasons men under 30 visit their, their doctor or physician in the UK is because of porn induced erectile dysfunction. So, you know, they get that's going to have an impact on future marriages, on your relationship with your spouse. And we don't have the ability to think about the future. We only really think about now. You know, we'll think about the future when it comes to financial planning and things like that, but we don't think about the future when it comes to these things. And churches have got a really, really big part to play in educating young people, but not giving them the message that pornography, pornography is wrong. I mean, we know it's wrong, but you tell a teenager that don't do that, what's the first thing they're going to get through. So you have to be very strategic about it. And I think One of the things I've learned in the training that I've done is that you, you give them, you give young people the message that there is a better option.

That's right.

You know, why, why take the, why take the junk choice when you can choose the good choice? But you know, they're so enmeshed in sexual imagery. Everywhere we look now. It's, you know, it's on commercials, it's on billboards, it's on the back of buses. It's very hard to take a step back and say, you know, actually I don't want, I don't want to be part of this.

Right. I have a conviction that it's mom and dad's role to disciple and to educate their child. And so it's my, it's my conviction. Nick knows this too, he's heard me say it. But it's my conviction that if we can provide education for parents in churches, that's one of the low hanging fruits where you can provide educators to say, let me give you a framework to have 101 minute conversation all through your age and stage of development. And mom and dad become the safest person to ask questions and to say, to bring, you know, if they're exposed to something on their, their, their phone, mom and dad are the safest people. Hey Dad, I saw this. Or. And mom and dad know how to train and guide, not shame and punish.

And actually normalizing the conversation in the house. And if you can like, you know, like you said, if you can start that from a really early age and just normalize the conversations, it doesn't feel weird and awkward when you're 14 and you want to ask questions.

Yes, well, Pure Desire has some great resources. We look forward to bringing a team to UK and helping in this regard.

What I do as part of my work is I have an on demand pornography recovery program that people can do, they can work through it themselves, but there's also a lot of resources in there that they can share with people around them. They're small group resources and that kind of thing. Because I was really quite affected by the number of people that had this problem and I thought, you know, in order to help more people going forward, people want things on demand, don't they? If they, the minute they decide they need help, they don't want to wait two weeks for an appointment, they want it there and then. So actually by doing online resources, it makes it so much more, more accessible to people around the world. But I really want to develop that by putting on more Resources for small groups, more resources for families and that kind of thing.

Yeah, and you mentioned you have resources for churches as well. So where can people go to find those resources and to connect with you?

So my website is www.quit-porn.com.

All right. Www.quit-porn quit-porn. That's awesome. And we would highly recommend that people check out your site and see what you're offering for churches. And we're just so grateful to meet you, Hannah, and to have another partner in this ministry of the work we're doing to help make a positive difference in the world and help people see that they can be free, they can walk in integrity, and that it makes a world of difference in their faith when they're not trying to do it alone. But we're coming to the body of Christ, not avoiding it. So as we wrap up today's conversation, we're reminded that churches don't have to choose between grace or safeguarding, that they can and must hold on to both. Supporting those struggling with sexual addiction, including those who have offended, requires courage, wisdom, and a commitment to accountability. And through practical protocols and a Christ centered approach, churches can become safe places for healing without compromising the protection of the community. So if you feel overwhelmed by the weight of these issues, know this. You're not alone. And your willingness to face hard truths can open the door for redemption, restoration and real change in your church. And Hannah, we're so grateful that you're a part of that. It's been a pleasure having you on the podcast today.

Thanks guys. It's been a real privilege.

And if you're a fan of the content of today's show, please subscribe, share it with somebody. Write us a review. All of these are ways that more people can find this life giving content. And if you would like more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.