SPECIAL EPISODE: Hope, Healing, and Freedom (New Book Release)

Foreign. Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is a special bonus episode, and I'll tell you why in just a minute. But here joining me as co host for this special bonus episode is Mrs. Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast.

Hi. I'm always happy to be here, especially for this fun bonus episode and what we have to talk about today.

Yes. Do you want to announce why this is a special bonus episode?

Yes. We are announcing the release of our newest book, Hope, Healing and Freedom. And we get to unpack that today and talk about why we wrote it, what you'll take away if you pick it up and read it, and who it's for, and, yeah, just all things about the book. So we're very excited to be able to have that out into the public now.

Yes, we are excited. It feels like there needs to be, like, balloons and confetti that go off and because this has been a project we've been working on, I think close to a year now, compiling our stories and thoughts and adding some content from some of our co workers. And I won't get into the, you know, the podcast is going to talk about the book, but I know we're just grateful to have this message out in the world and that people can pick it up at the Pure Desire store. So it's an exciting day for us as co authors, which I think is. Is also a new thing for Pure Desire that they've never had co authors, a male and female that weren't married writing a book. And we'll also talk about why we did that in just a little bit. So with that, let's just jump into it. Question for you, Ashley, in your own words, why would you say that we wrote Hope, Healing and Freedom, and why was it important that we wrote it together?

Okay, so. So I feel like this answer is a little layered. I think it's important because as somebody who has been the person searching for help after discovery, after my husband's pornography use and compulsive sexual behaviors came to light, I was out there searching for a resource that addressed both maybe what he's going through, what I was experiencing as a betrayed spouse, and the big thing, how do we get out of this? Um, it was really hard to find one resource that captured all of that. And then as far as somebody who walks along other side people, walks along others, and Helps churches and leaders and group members and. And I've seen my own family members and friends go through something because so many people struggle in this area or are impacted by it. It's going to be so nice to have a resource we can put in their hand that we can say, hey, I think this will be helpful for you. Read it if you want, but it's full of information and that it's left there visible for them to see. Links and text messages that we send people, they can get lost. They get buried in a thread. I have 70 something unread text messages right now that'll probably never see. But if somebody hands me a book, it's there. And the next time you hit rock bottom or hurting, you may just pick it up. It's easy to give a pastor so that tangible resource. We can dog ear it. We can bookmark things and go back and say, I need to apply this tool. I'm going a bookmark here. So, yeah, so many reasons to have a resource like this out.

Yeah. I remember in my first year of the healing journey, I was meeting with our counselor towards the end of the process and I asked him, I said, why did this work? Because I had done so many other things on my own. The try harder, have all the filters and accountability and promises to myself and my wife and others. I'd never do these things again and had failed over and over. And yet in that first year, with pure desire, I had experienced growth and freedom and change in ways that I never had. And I had wanted to for so long, but it was happening. It was like, why did this work? And as I think about that question and the conversation I had with my counselor that day, in some ways this book is kind of our answer. It's like this is the secret sauce, if you will, of pure desire, of what makes the ministry and our approach effective and not really even about us, but what we feel like God has led us into, of understanding a pathway that combines not only the human heart and our believing spirit side, but also getting into the mind and into our past. I think about Deuteronomy 6, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. And I think this book represents that comprehensive pathway of what healing looks like. And we, we just felt that there needed to be a resource that at the beginning of their journey or when someone's looking to help someone else, they could say, this is the book you need to read. Because we don't, you know, we don't go super deep into nuances of neurobiology. Although there's definitely stuff about the brain in there. What we really try to do is paint a picture of the healing pathway and give people hope that it's possible for them no matter where they're at. And I'm just. Yeah, I'm excited that we have it finally put together, because I think these are the things we've been telling people in many, many conversations. But now we have a book that can go with it and say, hey, you need to read this book.

Yeah, I mean, and, you know, the benefit of writing it together. Male, female, addict, betrayed. And with. With some of our stories from our team and their experience is that we. We've really seen it all and we've experienced it. And so can you share a little bit about why we included so much of our own stories with pornography addiction and betrayal trauma in this book?

I think our stories in the book really represent one of the core values of pure desire, and that's that for so many of us on staff, on the team, this is a very personal journey. It's something that we're not just trying to have others experience, but that we have walked in ourselves. And I feel like that was a big part of our perspective as authors is we're. We're experts, so to speak, on our own story and what we've seen in our lives. And then watching that be replicated over and over as we work with other men or other women in group and other couples. We're seeing the elements of our story play out and work for others. And so to. To share from that angle of. Of our story, our lives and then the principles that worked, I think makes the book real. I think it makes it accessible. And we're not trying to just sit here like two, you know, highly educated college professors that are telling people what to do from some ivory tower, but that are right here on the field, you know, playing the game, so to speak, with everyone else, saying, we get it. We know what it is to be in this battle. We know what it is to be working through significant challenges in your marriage and with your kids. And this is real life. And it's also one of the things we, I feel like, really take pride in as a ministry is that when people meet our team, that is maybe one of the most common pieces of feedback we get, is that you are also real. You're not. You're not. You're not pretending or performing. You're just being who you are. And I think that's what we tried to do in our approach with this book as well.

Yeah. Because even when I, you know, first went to the church and tried to find help, I was met with those vague, you know, like, we all struggle. We all have our things. Marriage is tough. All we have our story. And. And I was just thinking, but. But do you know what I'm going through? Can you help me with what I'm going through? And so that's why I put such a high value on being transparent. And sometimes even for me, it's still scary to say, okay, I don't really know if I should share all this, but almost. Almost all. All the people that I share with will say it's. It's more encouraging than not to hear that somebody's gone through something, even if it's hard, and that they've made it through the other side. And it gives me hope. So that. That is something that's not a. Not a piece that can be taught, because unfortunately, it's in. It's. It's an experience that we don't ask for. It's something that happens and we have to go through it. But it's one of those things that we get to end up using it for good, using it to help others, using it to pay the hope, healing, and freedom forward if we want to lean into that.

Yeah. And we both lived this story out in our marriages, and I think that's one of the values we see in this book, is that a married couple facing recovery or early in recovery could be reading this together because they're going to get angles from Ashley and John's story and from Nick and Michelle's lives and from the things we've seen. And I hope that it helps couples really have some of those key conversations that too often books tend to be for him or for her, the struggler or the spouse. And that's good. And there's a place for that. And we have books like that. But to have kind of an outline of, hey, this is the healing process that you're both experiencing. And for us, sharing that out of our own stories, I think will be really, really helpful. So one of the highlights of this book is we spend quite a bit of time sharing some of the highlights from our recent book, beyond the Porn, the stats and research that we did with Barna. And one of the things that's clear both in our book and in beyond the porn phenomenon, is that pornography is really on the rise among Christians. And so let's talk about that a little bit. Why do you think pornography has Such an allure and has become such a widespread problem even in the church today.

From what I can see and from stats, it's impacting men and women in the church and not in the church equally. I mean, it's just. It's impacting people. But I think the added layer with church is that there's one, especially in younger people, there's this curiosity because sex is so taboo and we don't talk about it, and we need to create safe places to talk about it so that we're not having to have the world alone be our teachers. But when you mix that curiosity with shame, then it creates this really toxic cycle. And we've taught that in a few sessions at different conferences we've run where that shame and secrecy feed the addictive cycle, because isolation feeds that. And so when you're in a church where you feel like you're going to be shamed, possibly go to hell because of what you're. What you've done, nobody will understand you. You're not like all the other people. You're alone in this, then that. That creates the isolation that feeds that shame and secrecy. And it's a nasty, nasty cycle. And a lot of time we see people when they've. When their lives have completely blown up or they've hit rock bottom, on the verge of divorce. Unfortunately, sometimes there's suicide because of the shame is so high. Where I have friends who are not in the church and they've experienced similar struggles with porn and compulsive sexual behavior. And it's. It's like, hey, my husband doesn't really like it when I look at porn, so I think I need to stop. And it's just like a casual conversation because it's not. It's not seen as something that's dangling you over the depths of hell if you admit this to people, or the possibility of losing your job or your position, or there's all these other things that go along with creating shame and secrecy in the church.

Yeah, it's definitely a hurdle that we hope this book might help many people and many churches overcome. And one of the things we talk about in the book as well is the idea that we are all sexual beings. You know, And I think about that the body is the body and the brain is the brain, Whether it's a Christian body or an atheist body or a Buddhist body. Like, the body still responds to certain stimuli the same way. And the pleasure center of the brain, the reward system is, as we talk about in the book, very disconnected from our thinking. Brain. So the part of us that is moral, that has come alive in Christ, that wants to honor God with our thoughts and behaviors and beliefs is. Is a really good part of us. But there are very significant ways in which the part of our brain that's most impacted by dopamine isn't really talking to that moral, saved Christian part of our brain. And so on the other side of it, we've got to understand what is happening in my brain and my body when these things have occurred to me, what's happened in my past when I was first exposed pornography. And the other thing I think about is these are topics we just haven't talked about. I'd say by and large, as a society, but particularly in Christian homes and churches, we've maybe had some of the birds and the bees talk or, you know, kind of an overview of human anatomy, but we haven't gone deeply into helping people understand what does it mean to be made in the image of God as a sexual being and that my sexuality is God's design and gift. And then looking at the ways that sin and Satan and a fallen world have hijacked the goodness of God's gift. And. And those struggles are real again, whether we know God or not, whether we're walking in faith or not. And so I think the fact that the church, as you said, is so silent, by and large on this, it just increases the struggle because the body's the body and the brain is the brain, and it responds to sexual pleasure the same whether we've been saved or not. And so I think the more we can recognize that, and I hope none of our listeners will hear me say that, like, oh, being a Christian doesn't matter in this journey, because it absolutely does. It's a game changer to have faith in Christ and to invite him into this healing work. I mean, that's ultimately what it's all about. But at an addiction kind of struggle level, as so many people have found their faith and the answers their faith had given them wasn't enough to help them avoid the allure of this. And then they went to a church that never talked about it and just felt like, well, maybe I'm the only one. And so I'll just try to figure this out on my own. And yet all around them are people struggling with the exact same issue.

Yeah, I never really understood fully the analogy of the birds and the bees. I'm wondering if you can explain that to me. I know what it means, but I don't know what it means. So it Never really made sense.

Let's use real words. That's a valid question. Ashley, that will be our second book, because I'm not sure I have the answer to that question. I think even anatomically, there's not much about birds and bees that really help us think about human anatomy.

Right. Let's call it what it is. There's no confusion about what we're talking about here. Yeah. And. And even what you're saying, you know, I. I did go to the church for help first. And so I think with the church sometimes, and historically, we can separate. You know, that all you need is Jesus. All you need is prayer. The truth will set you free. If you truly surrender to God, if you have faith that, you know, that can move mountains, all these things, and. And that's all needed, but it needs to be paired with. With action steps and understanding why we're stuck and understanding where did we get off course and stop trusting God with these things? And ultimately, I did get to those same exact question and answers after a bunch of digging and processing and work. I was not trusting God. I did lose my identity in, you know, my confidence in who I was in. In God. But there was something along the way that. That clouded my belief of myself. Fogged what. How I viewed myself through God's lens. And I needed help processing where those things happened to reframe how God really sees me and how he thinks of me and where I picked up some faulty thinking from myself and my own shame behaviors or from others. And so it is a. It is a. Both. And. And I think that's why people take a big sigh of relief when they come to pure Desire, because they want to hold on to those values that they've learned from their parents and in Chur Church. And we do that at Pure Desire and we help them see where's the disconnect? And how can we help you move out of this? Can you share some common misconceptions about those who struggle with pornography or sexual addiction?

You know, I think when we hear the phrase sexual addiction or we think about that person who struggles with pornography, there's kind of a caricature that does come to mind. We maybe think of someone that's very lonely or socially awkward, you know, doesn't have any friends or interactions, and so they're pursuing this online fantasy world. Or we define the struggle by the extremes that it's taken someone to. And so if, you know, if we hear of a person that's, you know, paying for sex and, you know, buying prostitutes, like oh, they must be a sex addict. But the guy or the gal that's weakly struggling with something on their cell phone in the bathroom at night, we haven't thought of that because it's not as extreme or we've defined addiction by the frequency that, oh, the someone who struggles or someone who's an addict, they're every day so compulsive, they can't ever stop themselves. And yet what we have seen is that those are very inaccurate. Now, those things can be true, but we've recognized that addiction and compulsive sexual behavior can look like anyone. It can look like the person sitting next to us in church, the doctor, the lawyer, the friend. There are so many people that I've worked with in group that if you just looked at their life from the outside, you would say, oh, they have no need of pornography in their life. They wouldn't struggle with that. They wouldn't, you know, they've got this wonderful life or this beautiful family or this great job. Like that's. And that's the caricature. I think we get stuck in to think that pornography or sexual addiction is only a trap for people that don't have anything else in their life. And yet, as we talk about so well in the book, this. This struggle has very historical roots in our life. It often starts very, very young. We're set up for struggle even as into our childhood. And I'm not saying, you know, that little kids struggle, but little kids are taught messages about their value, worth and identity. They begin to inherit messages of shame or worthlessness that are the exact things that set them up to struggle with sexuality later in life. And it's not because they've become an adult and. Or some lonely person that has nothing else. It's because it's the pattern that we've learned to reach out to. And I think that's what we're trying to do in the book is to normalize this behavior. And I don't mean normalize like, say, oh, it's okay, no big deal. But to normalize it in the way that it's normalized that people might have a food issue or that someone might have an alcohol issue. We don't expect that there's only that kind of person that has a struggle. We know that that can affect anyone. And we just see that it's because of. The brain is really wired. If you think about it, the brain is wired for addiction. I remember our founder, Dr. Ted Roberts, told me that we were all born for addiction because in our brain when we feel certain strong thoughts, emotions, or feelings, our brain wants to run to something that makes us feel good. And as Dr. Ted Roberts would say, we were all born to run to Jesus, but we've learned to run to something else. And when we run to something else, we get addicted to it because it's a way of feeling good. It's a way of, you know, managing life. And that can become addictive for any person in any walk of life. And when we see in that sense that, oh, this is normal, then we can all embrace healing together and not, you know, shame or ostracize those that have that one problem. But look around and go, you know what? We're all kind of made this way. And maybe we don't all have the same exact struggle, but we're all wired for these kind of traps. And let's look at what does it mean to heal and find real freedom?

And, you know, just. I was thinking as you're talking, I don't know if this is a rabbit trail or not, but probably. But are we going back to the.

Birds and the bees? That was a rabbit trail.

Rabbits and birds and bees. So this book is for everyone. I mean, I just can't emphasize that enough because as you were talking, I was thinking, you know, we were talking about basically our attachment and where we learn how to cope and our value. And I remember Diane saying, you know, Satan isn't super crafty. He takes the same five basic lies from when we were children, and he makes them more fancy and sophisticated. But when you distill it down, it's the same core beliefs about yourself, like shame, lies. And I was. And I just had this kind of flashback to one of my teenagers when they were struggling and me saying to them, you know, when I was your age, I struggled with everything I had access to. I didn't have a cell phone like you do. I don't have an iPad. I didn't have YouTube, all these things. And so when I'm correcting you or giving you boundaries or pulling something back because I want to help you protect your mind, body and soul and set you up for success, it's not because I think you're a bad person. I did. I was exactly the same. I just had different resources. And so. But I would have never been able to say that or do that with my child or a sister or a brother or a neighbor who came to me if I haven't worked through my own things or at least had a basic understanding. And so I guess that's my Plea to at least everyone listening to this podcast or Christians, the church, that. That you would grab this book and read it. So even if it's not your issue, you have that basic understanding to be able to talk to our next generation, to talk to your grandkids, your nieces, your nephews, your sisters, that you would respond well in a way that encourages people forward through their mess, and that there is hope in that. So that was my rabbit trail. Just thinking back to just how hard it was to find help and the messages I heard growing up and even in my single years that how it hopefully could have been so different if one person would have just given me a resource with a clear path and saying, this is normal. You're. You are normal. You are not a bad Christian. You are not a bad human because you struggle in this way.

What I hear you saying, Ashley, is this is a conversation we all need to be having, that it's not just a conversation for those people with that problem. And maybe one day I'll meet a random, you know, struggler, and I'll be able to help. It's like, no, I'll need to have this conversation with my kids, with my friends in my family. And if I'm not. If it's not happening around me, it's not because no one's struggling. It's because no one has the pathway or the courage or the understanding to know how to bring this up. And maybe I could be the one in my circle to begin pointing that way towards healing. And we truly hope that's one of the outcomes of this book. So one of the things we talk about quite a bit in the book, Ashley, is the idea of connection. And we've many times used the phrase from a Johan Hari talk where he says, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And so what do we mean when we talk about connection? What does that look like in real life?

Again, layered. I think it's you. I don't know if it's you or you who's quoting somebody else that says.

You know, let's just assume it's me, okay?

It's you. Because it's such. It's such a good. It's such a good. It's such a good thing to remember that, you know, we get taken out one by one in secrecy and isolation and shame. The enemy wants to target us and think we're. Make us think we're alone. But then you go to something like our annual summit or our conferences, and you see that hundreds of people can be set free at one time when somebody has the courage to say, I've been there, here's the path forward, you are not alone. You are not the only one going through this. And so connection is so important. We, we have people that will go through counseling and they'll get sober. Sober is not living, is not necessarily living in health and recovery and freedom. And we don't want you to just get sober. We don't want you to just stop a behavior and white knuckle it. We want you to get free and then live out your calling and live out your purpose. And when sexual shame or betrayal, trauma, when we are struggling with that and we don't know how to get out of it, it prevents us from living shame free with others, in relationship, in our friendships, with God, with our ministry, that there's always this piece of us that feels like we're held back. And so to get that connection piece and that true freedom, you have to have that community to be able to get that other piece, not just the sobriety. And I haven't done X, Y or Z for 10 days or 100 days, but that next level that says, and I'm known, seen and loved regardless of, of what I've done or what I'm struggling with. And that's the element that we offer in a group setting. That's the element that we, we get through community that propels us to not just be okay with not doing it or continuing the same pattern or lessening the frequency, but that we're living our fullest life.

When I hear the word connection, I think of words like intimacy and attachment. And intimacy at its base level is not sex. It's not about sexuality. Intimacy is knowing and being known. That someone knows me fully. They know the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm truly known, and I'm loved and accepted. That's connection. And we were all made for connection, whether we believe it or not, whether we think we're an extrovert or an introvert, a people person or not. Like, you were wired. You were designed for secure attachment with other people and with your creator. You know, one of Our favorite authors, Dr. Kurt Thompson, is the one who said that every person born into the world is looking for four things. To be seen, safe, soothed and secure. And he goes on to say, that never stops. Like, that's a need we all have. And our brain is actively looking, going, am I safe? Am I seen? Am I secure? Are there places I can go to be comforted? And when we know that we are. When someone provides that sense of, I'm safe, I'm seen, I'm secure with you. When I'm with you, I feel comforted. There's a soothing in our relationship. That's connection. And what we have found is that people who develop secure attachment really have the capacity then to overcome addiction of any kind because they no longer need the coping strategy that they've been using. Instead, they're doing what we would call healthy coping by finding secure attachment in God and others. And I think the good news is that every single one of us is capable of secure attachment, regardless of what happened in our childhood, regardless of maybe how insecure attachment we grew up with, we can learn. And that's what you were saying, Ashley. That in the context of a safe group built around the principles that have made pure desire groups so effective, we can discover what real connection with other men or other women actually looks and feels like. And it's. It's something I hear all the time as I do group with men, is they'll say, I've never felt this close to other men. And they don't mean that in a sexual way. They don't mean that in a weird way. They mean like, these guys really know me, and it seems like they actually like me. And because of that, I now feel a connection to them that I haven't felt. I've played sports with men. I've done all these other things with my friends, but if I don't feel like they really see me and know me, I'm not going to have that level of connection. But in a group where you're walking this journey and you're sharing your whole story, the good, the bad, and the ugly, that kind of connection develops. And that is such a key of what sets us free.

Yeah. And even what you're saying, Nick, to go forward in friendships and relationships when you no longer have to worry about getting too close to a certain topic that might make you feel uncomfortable or I don't really like going there with that person. But you can have genuine relationships where you just get to be your whole self that just continues to foster purpose and joy and living in your own skin and just keeping that shame broken down. So it's really important to have that connection. And a lot of us, I think, have gone to group and said, I've never shared this part with anybody. I've never shared this part of my story. And I think almost everybody in group has had a moment of that at some point. And we don't have to live like that.

Yeah.

Okay, Nick, from a brain science perspective, why is pornography so hard to quit without help?

Yes, I will give my straightforward explanation, but I would encourage people to pick up the book because we do quote liberally from our brain expert Heather Kolb and other resources that can explain this much more in depth. But at a simple level, what I would want listeners to understand is that every time we go to a behavior that creates a strong pleasure hit, it's releasing dopamine in the brain. And your brain was designed by God for healthy dopamine. But we can see how easily that system gets tricked into whatever produces dopamine. Our brain wants more of it, and so it creates pathways in the brain that make it more certain that we will go back for that pleasure. And not only that, what we're learning about dopamine is that that brain chemical is as much about the anticipation of an event as it is about the event itself. And so whether we're talking about eating chocolate cake or doing drugs or turning to sex or pornography, if you've had that issue in your life, when you begin to think about it, when you feel triggered, you know that's where that word comes from. You're being triggered. A little bit of dopamine is being triggered in the brain. And that reward system that you've developed to go back to that thing is getting activated. And every time we walk that road, it's getting deeper and deeper in grain. So that almost becomes an automatic brain response. We feel something and the brain goes. This is our pathway to go and feel better. And why that's so difficult to change is because all of this system, that pattern in our brain, is housed in a place we would call the limbic system. And the limbic system is really our inner brain. It's kind of the most basic part of us that's there for survival. And because sex and food are wired into our brain for survival, it is an ultra powerful part of how our brain works. And so even if we have all of the right convictions and intentions and the commitments of, I'm never going to do that again. It's like having this 800 pound gorilla on the side that when that 800 pound gorilla gets activated, it doesn't matter in some regards what other ideals or convictions we have, the 800 pound gorilla is going to win. And, and then you add to that doing it alone means we're fighting that system, thinking, I'm going to get out of this just by trying harder. I'm, I'm going to go up against that 800 pound gorilla all by myself and defeat it. And then add to that, oh, by the way, the thing that you're tempted by or being drawn to actually feels really good. And we need to acknowledge that, that God designed sex and sexual activity to feel amazing. And in the right context, it's a blessing and a gift. But in addiction, it's also part of why there is such an allure that when we're on our own, we begin to rationalize because a part of us wants to feel that feeling again. And so our brain goes, well, this will be the last time, or, well, this time doesn't really count or matter because of this, or I won't tell anyone and no one will know, or it doesn't matter. And we rationalize ourselves all the way back to that behavior because no one knows and we're fighting alone. And so the 800 pound gorilla wins again. And then, you know, we go on the, the other side. We're like, oh, I can't believe I did that again. What's wrong with me? And we kind of, you know, we, we fortify ourselves and say, okay, this time will be different. Well, this is what we call the binge purge cycle. And it just keeps happening over and over because that part of your brain is meant to win. It's meant to keep us alive. But in the same way, it also can keep drawing us back to those addictive behaviors. And so that's why we need people, that's why we need others to help the brain learn and grow. And we can be transformed. As Paul says in Romans 12, 2, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. But that renewing of the mind, if you read Romans 12, he goes immediately into community. He talks about being a part of the body. And too often we read those verses and go, oh, by myself, I need to sit with the Bible and renew my mind. And that's good. Read your Bible. Yes, great. And understand that the renewing process of the mind and changing that pattern in the brain is often going to be a community and a group process.

Yeah. And you talked about, you know, us having the secret sauce. And I, I really, I mean, I, I am a betrayed spouse. And I'm also like an everything addict at some point that I've been able to work through. And I just kept playing the whack a mole game with my own struggles and addictions and the trauma that I was feeling from betrayal, not knowing what all of that was thinking, oh, I don't really struggle. I haven't done that in a Year. But over here I'm doing this. And, and the secret sauce is that, you know, we are biblically based, but we also have a clinically informed approach. And you talk about the brain and a little bit about why, why we can feel stuck or it can be hard to quit. And that's, that's what I found to be the struggle with most approaches is we can go to a counselor who has all of the clinical knowledge to help with addiction. But then as a Christian, we're like, but where does God fit into this? Or we go to our pastor and they say, read and pray and confess, and we're still feeling stuck. So then we feel shame as a, as a Christian that we're not trusting God enough. And what we do at Pure desire is take that and put it together and address the mind, body and soul to know that, that, like you said, God made us all sexual. He made our brains to function a certain way. And I don't know where I got the quote from, so I'm sorry, I'm not giving credit, but the one line that says that just stuck with me was, any reward without work is dangerous. It might have been like the Huberman Lab or something.

But that's probably my quote, I'm sure.

Yeah, you're right. All the good quotes are next. But any.

I just quote other people, too.

I'm going through my house, like, as a parent and through my life going, what am I rewarding myself without work? Because then as we. Let's say we want to quit porn. Well, now the work of intimacy and healing that conflict that you just had last night with your spouse, or you get home from a long day of work and you don't want to hear anybody else talk, but you know that your spouse needs engagement and conversation. That all feels like work. And so we need people around us to be able to help us see things from the outside and help us create plans. Because our broken thinking is what got us here. And our brain is always going to want to do what's easiest. And so we need people to help us. Say, it's going to feel hard right now that we, we don't just do the easy thing that we've been doing, but we need to do the thing that in the long term is going to be a benefit for you. And the hope is that you will feel different. You won't just get to a place where you learn to white knuckle it better, but we can tell you your desire and your wants can change and you can feel joy and happy that you no longer are living in that addictive cycle and using those same coping behaviors.

Yeah. It's deeply encouraging when people say, I can feel that I'm changing, that what my brain wants, what I instinctively think about in those moments is changing what used to be a constant trigger for porn or acting out. Now I'm recognizing those moments. What I long for is connection or relationship or to reach out to someone or to go to this. This healthy place that actually does create calm or peace or courage. And when we see that happening, it's like, oh, it really is working. It's not just behavior modification. It's a new way of life.

Yeah.

So, Ashley, a significant piece of this book is we don't want to just address addiction. We're not just talking to the struggler. We are also incorporating how this creates betrayal trauma in a marriage, what happens in the relationship. And we see these as such connected events. And again, going back to why we co wrote it and co authored it with our stories and talk a little bit about what is betrayal trauma, and how can the church support both those who struggle and the partner who's experiencing significant betrayal?

Yeah. So betrayal trauma at a basic level is a breach of trust or violation from somebody that you either depend on for survival. So that could be like a parent, child, or somebody that you're deeply connected with, deeply attached to that. You know, God talks about us becoming one, and we mind, body, soul, and we biologically connect with each other and our nervous systems, you know, regulate. Like, there's so many things that happen in a marriage. And so then when all of a sudden there's this breach of covenant, or your life is not what you thought it is, or to me, I would always say, like, the boogeyman just came out of the closet. My world was turned upside down. You feel so incredibly unsafe. The. The person who's struggling, the addict, they know about all this stuff. So they're coming into this disclosure, discovery, going, it's out. Like, it feels horrible. And it's. It's like, spotlight's on you. And it's. It's. It's hard, but it's out. I'm finally honest. Everything's revealed. I'm. I, you know, I want to move forward, hopefully in health and show my spouse how much I love them. Where the betrayed spouse has been going on thinking, I mean, I finally married the Christian man. We're doing ministry together. I feel so safe in this. I have all these dreams and aspirations and. And he honors me and protects me. And so when this Stuff comes out, we're like, what. What part of our life was even real? What was fake? What else is coming out? If they can lie about this, is there like another. Is there a fair baby out there? Is somebody going to knock on my door? Or is child porn involved? I mean, our mind goes to the depths of what. What could possibly happen? And it makes you feel, um, it's really like ptsd. So if somebody's experiencing betrayal trauma, it's. It's the same kind of symptoms. Our fight, flight or freeze system gets fully activated. Our nervous system's dysregulated, our language center can go offline, having trouble finding our words. Our gut can have digestive issues, chronic inflammation. All. Every body system is impacted by that kind of trauma. And, and often we don't know we're going through it. And if you haven't had something like this book to explain what addiction is and betrayal, trauma, or you don't have the right help, then it's, well, why are you overreacting? Can't you just forgive why, you know, why are you responding in such a big way? And they don't know that what they're experiencing is trauma. And so for the helper or the church pastor or the leader or the friend, it's important to know what is happening to a betrayed spouse. So you can, can be there in a supportive way and not a way that's going to add the addict shame on top of the betrayed spouse.

Yeah, well, and in the book, we use the metaphor of a car accident that so often what the church does is, is, you know, some guy plows into another driver, and the other driver is really injured and hurt and needs medical attention. But the church comes along and picks up the cause of the accident and says, let's help you. Let's get you driving classes. Let's make sure you don't do that again, let's support you. Meanwhile, the person that got hit or run over is like, what about me? And in this case, that's the spouse. And really, when we talk about how churches can support that betrayed spouse, I think in so many ways, they are the one that needs attention first. They're the ones that need a loving group that surrounds them. People who say, what do you need? How can we support you? Could we help with childcare? Do you need some time to get to a counselor? And we could watch your kids or provide a meal? All those things that we might think of in grief or other traumas really do apply. When pornography has been exposed in a marriage, there's been some kind of discovery or disclosure, and, you know, we'll get to the struggle. Yeah, that that addict or the one struggling needs to take some steps. They need to find healing and sobriety and group and all of that. And that betrayed spouse has very immediate needs because, like you said, the one who's struggling, they've been living in this world their whole life. You know, they're aware of what's going on, and now they're just revealing it. But that betrayed spouse or partner is often entering into something for the first time, and their whole world suddenly feels unsafe, unreliable, and their needs are significant. And I think the more that churches recognize that paradigm of, oh, this is the person that needs our most immediate care, it will actually be the greatest potential for saving that marriage. And I say that because I know a lot of churches and pastors, like, that's what they really want, is like, how do we fix the marriage? How do we heal the couple? How do we make sure they don't divorce? Because God hates divorce. And so do we. And I, you know, I believe that it's. It's great that we're against divorce, but if we really want to prevent divorce, it's not enough to just get the guy, or in some cases the gal to stop looking at porn or to stop their compulsive sexual behavior. We're going to really have to provide some resources for that hurting, betrayed spouse to heal. Because if they're not able to heal, the likelihood of that marriage or relationship healing is very little. It's almost zero, I would say, in my experience. And for the marriages that make it, they're not thriving. They're limping along because there's one guarded, hurt, angry spouse who's watching even a very healthy, recovered struggler. But they're not recovered in the marriage. So that'd be my encouragement to churches if you want to rescue and save marriages, help the betrayed spouse, help them find support and safety and healing, and then they will be equipped to make the right or the best decision for the future of that marriage, it's not either or. It truly has to be both. And.

Yeah, and I. I agree. And. And, you know, like you said earlier, we've lived this. I've lived this with. With John. I know you've told your story of Michelle getting to the point where it's like, I don't. I can't live with this pain anymore. And we don't. We don't want marriages to fall apart. We don't want, you know, the enemy lies and Shame, secrecy, sexual addiction, to be destroying our families and our marriages and our men and our women and our. Our. You know, we don't. We don't want that. And at the same time, when there's continual deception, abuse, pornography, use, whatever. Whatever brings people here, sometimes their marriage does end. And so let's get on that on the front end, especially as churches, as leaders, to where we can say, immediately, when this stuff hits your family or you're having a struggle, come to us. We want to get you help. Because we know firsthand that we can see the worst of worst cases come in, or like, oh, my gosh, they are never going to make it. This is as bad as I've ever seen. And they turn around, and then they're going on to tell other people that there's hope, that there's healing, that there's freedom. And so everybody has a chance to turn their marriage around, to lean into this. And I also remember when John first got help. A few months in my thinking as betrayed spouse was, you're the one with the problem, so you stop the problem, stop lying, get your life together, and then our marriage will be fine. And. And I'm. And it wasn't. And it's not because I was the cause of his behaviors or his addiction. It was because I had been traumatized and I had been hurt. And until I worked through that trauma, processed through it, and then learned how to go through our relationship in a healthy way, to be able to say, this is what I need, this is what I can't have, we would have just kind of stayed in a. In a cycle. And so, um, it's really important for the addict to get the support and recovery that they need, and the betrayed spouse to get the support and encouragement that. That they need. All right, to wrap us up here, what is one thing you most hope that readers will take away after reading this new book?

When I think about the conversations we're having in the book, what we hope people learn, especially those who are on the front end of their journey, that are trying to figure out what's what, what do I do? How do we recover? I really hope what they'll walk away with is seeing that they're not alone, they're not the only one. They're not somehow uniquely bad or disqualified, that they are engaging in a recovery journey that is happening all over the world in thousands and thousands of couples. And people are making it. They're healing, and they're not only surviving, they're thriving. And if we can help lift that Cover of shame around this topic, around this healing journey, to say, you know, if we're all sexual beings and in some regard our sexuality has been impacted by a broken, fallen, sinful world, whether we ever intended it to or not, we all need some level of healing and recovery. And so let's walk this road together. And I think when people read the stories and they hear from us, they hear from the lives of many, many others that we've worked with, they're going to see a piece of themselves, they're going to see a piece of their loved one, they're going to see a part of their kids story. They're like, oh, now this is making sense. And this isn't some unique, horrible situation that no one's ever faced before. And yes, your situation might be very painful. I'm not trying to minimize that what you're walking through might be very, very difficult. I can't make that go away. But I can say to you, you're not alone. And what you're going through is not so unique or so bad that you can't recover. Because we have watched the most horrific stories walk into this office. Hypothetically or, or literally, people walk into this office, tell us their story, and a year later or two years later, they're in an entirely different place. And so there is hope, there is healing, there is freedom. And we hope that you'll find the courage to start that journey or to, to pass this book to someone else that you see as stuck or hurting or not sure where to turn and that they would find that hope in their journey as well.

Yes, I echo everything you said. And then, you know, another statement I said after I first discovered pure desire, resources, and all the new things that we've created since, you know, I started my healing journey is that I wish I would have had this information sooner. I wish they wouldn't have let me leave the hospital with my children without this information. And so even if compulsive sexual behavior and betrayal trauma is not your story, we love what we do because it gets to the root. And we say that sexual addiction is not about sex. And so I would just encourage you to read the book regardless of where you're at, if it has anything to do with you. Because the, the things that draw us to compulsive sexual behavior, the ways that we experience betrayal, those things can be very universal to all kinds of struggles, all kinds of relationships. And I think that people who read this will walk away with even just one nugget of information that will help them live a more authentic life, maybe connect a dot to to an area that they struggle even if it's not sex related or betrayal trauma related. So my hope for people that read this book is that everybody would read this book here.

Here we are. As you can hear listener. We're excited, we're looking forward to this book being out there and having it be for so many people. Maybe that intro step, you know, I think that's the benefit of a book is it's something that a person could slip into a bag on their next out of town trip that they could read in the privacy of their own home and start to understand what do we need to do? Because this, this is a journey that it's beginning. There's so many unknowns, there's so much fear. There's so many perhaps bad examples or stories that are out there of what what someone was told by a counselor or bad advice. And if this book could be a safe place for people to start and get a view of what that pathway looks like, then it will be well worth all of the time and energy that we put into it. And so, as we wrap up today's conversation, we hope that you've heard clearly healing is possible for both the struggler and the spouse. Our journeys are a testament that freedom doesn't come from perfection. Neither of us are perfect, but from honesty, connection and the courage to seek help. Pornography and compulsive sexual behavior, as well as the betrayal that comes with it, doesn't have to be the end of your story. So whether you're in the middle of your struggle or the towards the end of a story or at the very beginning, we want to come alongside you and help you find hope, healing and freedom on the pathway forward. You are not alone and there is hope. Healing starts with one brave step and you can take it today. Well, thanks Ashley. If you are a fan of this content, please please subscribe Share it with somebody. Write us a review, give us a like a heart, a thumbs up, whatever it looks like on the platform you're using. Because truly that helps other people find this content and might give them hope at the moment they need it most. And if you would like more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, visit us at puredesire. Org Journey on My friends, you are not alone.