435 - Women's Voices: Rebuilding Trust and Safety After Betrayal w/ Dr. Jill Manning

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 435, and here joining me as my co host for this series is Ashley Jamison. Ashley, good to see you again.

Great to be here. Always happy to co host.

Yes. And I think this series in particular is going to be a highlight and so appropriate to have you on because here in this month, we really wanted to focus on women's voices and elevating women's voices in recovery and the healing sphere. And I know we have lots of women guests on and we've had you and Heather and other women as co hosts of the podcast, but this still seems to be in many ways an area that we think of or that maybe our society and the church at large think of as a men's issue. And we need to help the men. And it's a men's area. And we still, I think, in some ways, are seeing a gap in the resources and voices that are there for women. And that's why we focused on it for this month. And today was a real highlight to have someone we've looked up to and respected for a long time but never gotten to hear from, and that is Dr. Jill Manning. And so, Ashley, tell us a little bit about what listeners can expect from today's conversation.

There's very few people that I sit and listen to where I want to take notes. And I'm just gonna let the listeners know to get their notepad out because I actually had so many notes I jotted down from listening to her. She's just full of information sharing research results and her own experiences working as a therapist. Her little acronyms and her one liners are gold. I think they're mantras that we can repeat, compete over ourselves if. If we find that one sticks with us. So I just thought she was a wealth of knowledge and I'm really excited to unpack this episode.

Yeah, we both were saying at that at the end, we're like you. We could make like 4T shirts off what you just said there, because it's what we need to know about recovery. So, yeah, a little bit more about Dr. Jill Manning. She is a licensed marital and family therapist, a certified clinical partner specialist, and EMDR certified therapist who specializes in treating individuals who have been sexually betrayed through infidelity or compulsive sexual behavior. In addition to her clinical work, Dr. Manning is a researcher, author, consultant, and speaker. And so here now is part one of four in Women's Voices with Dr. Jill Manning. Healing after betrayal, rebuilding trust and safety. Dr. Jill Manning, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. We're excited to have you on today.

Likewise. Thank you for having me.

So, since this is your first time to join us, would you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and in particular, what led you to dedicate your work to helping individuals and couples heal from betrayal trauma?

Sure. Thank you. So I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm based in Colorado, but from Canada. And this whole issue and focus, professionally, really, I believe, came to me. I didn't start out seeking this out. I really believe this organically came upon my path. I'm somewhat unique in that I don't identify as someone who's been sexually betrayed myself. And I think that's both a strength and it gives me a perspective that others, most of my colleagues who do this work have been sexually betrayed themselves. I've certainly been betrayed, but not in the way that I typically work with with clients. And so this whole focus, which is really a passion of mine, came to me through two key pathways. The first is spiritual. The second was clinically spiritually. I served a mission for my church many years ago, and I was called to France, Southwestern France region, beautiful area of the world. And when I was engaged in that work, I was struck by how often I was encountering women that had been sexually assaulted. It's a very prevalent issue in. In France, it is globally. But in France, it was a more prominent issue than in other areas of the world at the time. And so I was in. I was recognizing that this was spiritually hindering and blocking people from finding peace, progressing spiritually and also relationally. So that when I returned from that experience, I switched my focus from wanting to study law into being a therapist. I thought the world has enough lawyers. I think that still holds. Tr True. But there. There was no one doing this specific type of work with or enough of enough of us doing this work. So that that's what led me on the therapeutic path. Now, when I got out of graduate school, this was in Canada. I started working, and I attended Loma Linda University, which is a Seventh Day Adventist school. I'm not Seventh Day Adventist, but that was the orientation of my studies. And I was so shocked that within months, within 2, 3 months of engaging therapeutically in this new profession, this issue was finding me. I had clients as young as 5 and as old as 85 that were bringing up the topic of pornography or bringing up the issue of being betrayed in a marriage through pornography. And so I got really curious and I started getting better at asking the right questions. And lo and behold, this was such a pervasive issue. And what. What stood out was I had not. I don't think I'd even heard the word pornography in any of my training. And I'd had really excellent training. And I had also done interning at a sexual health clinic in Canada. So this was quite remarkable that this was not something I'd ever been trained in. And yet it was coming to me pervasively within weeks of being out in the field, working. So that clinically, I believe, found me. And so the more curious I got, I realized there was a gap. Clinically, there was not enough resource that was matching what I was seeing in the therapy room. And most of what was available was being borrowed from the chemical dependency field, which some of it is useful and some of it does cross over, but much of it doesn't. This is a distinct and different issue issue referring to betrayal through pornography, their sexual unfaithfulness and brokenness. So it was through that curiosity and that pathway that I then led to desire to seek doctoral studies. And my entire doctoral program focused on research of what's going on here. How do we help women in particular that have been betrayed in marriage through the use of pornography or other forms of sexual betrayal? And so that's really, in a nutshell, the story, both spiritually, having my path redirected therapeutically, and then in that therapeutic work, realizing a clinical gap that I had a desire to meet. And I'd long had a desire to help women with women's issues and women's health. And so this was a beautiful, dark but beautiful merging of all those interests and passions.

Yeah, we still hear about that gap all the time. People that come to us and say, I looked all over. I looked on the Internet. There were no counselors around me. And thankfully, it is shifting, but I think slowly, where more people are being trained in betrayal trauma, becoming certified in sex addiction recovery and therapy. And so it's a growing area because I think we're finally seeing the need. And in the Christian community, we're waking up to providing those resources, but we're still far, far behind the need. And so I'm thankful that you saw that, even though it wasn't your story, because you're right, that is, by and large, why people end up in this field. And most of us have said, I don't know that I Ever would have pursued this had it not been my story. And so it's personal to me, but I'm grateful to know there are others that say it found me and I saw a need and I responded. And so, yeah, I'm just super thankful for the work that you do and that you're a part of this community.

Thank you. Thank you.

You know, over the last few years, I've had to do different searches personally, just for counselors, for my kids, certified sex addiction therapists. And then I, this morning was searching for a dentist, and I'm like, why is it not, you know, not as easy to just. Like, we have so many issues with our sexuality and with pornography and affairs. I mean, it. It does impact almost everybody in some. Some way, even if it's indirectly through a friend or like you said, stunting people's ability to spiritually grow or. Or live out their full purpose. That it's. It's so pervasive, but it's really hard to find. Find good help. And so I just echo it. Nick said, I'm so thankful for however you found it, it finding you, you know, that you're doing this good work, and. And we're getting to highlight another person out there doing work that, you know, people can become aware of. So it's a good lead into my next question. We want to know. Your research has contributed significantly to bringing scientific attention to betrayal, trauma, and particularly in the context of pornography use. So could you share some of your key findings or data from your research that you believe are most important for clinicians, couples, and faith communities to understand?

Sure. Thank you for that question. So a little bit of context before I share some key findings. So in 2005, I had the opportunity to work on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C. doing policy research. I was a social science fellowship on the Hill, and based on that research, was invited to testify before a U.S. senate subcommittee. What was so remarkable, it was an incredible opportunity. I felt incredibly just honored to be able to speak to the research on this. I was the first to speak to the relational impact of pornography. There had been other hearings over the years, but they had focused on the impact of the individual on the individual. And as a trained marriage and family therapist wrapping up my doctoral work, my focus was, how does this impact families? How does this impact marriages? That was. That was the focus. And so it was the first time that on the Senate record, that kind of data had been introduced. And what we were finding. This is 25 years. Sorry, no, 20 years ago now. The data was clear and it was compelling. That pornography use has a destructive and negative impact on the marriage relationship. That it puts couples at greater risk for divorce and conflict. That it is viewed as a form of cheating and betrayal. That it has a negative impact even if the children supposedly know nothing about, has a negative impact on parenting quality. It erodes trust between partners and the big lie. I mean the pornography industry would, would have people believe that this will spice life up. Well, it, well it does spice things up, all right, but the spice is called misery and contention. And, and we know that this also leads to sexual dissatisfaction. There's been an 1000% increase in erectile dysfunction in the last 25 years with some data showing strongly that this, there's a causal effect. So I think all the things that pornography would, would have people believe is just one big fat lie. And even when I meet people, which happens occasionally when I meet people that believe in, that believe that pornography did good things in their life or marriage, when you take that story and really go deep into it over time, that story does not hold up long term. And the longitudinal data also shows that even when this is not an addiction or compulsive, that pornography use undercuts the foundation of healthy, satisfying relationships across the board. Religious and non religious couples, it doesn't matter. Across the board this has a negative impact. And I think Internet pornography has been around roughly 34 years. I think we're at now this has been an unregulated social experiment that if it was going to have a positive impact on marriages and individuals, we would have seen that by now. But the data shows strongly that this is having a negative impact on individual well being, marriage well being and family well being. And so that's what I try to be a voice for, is to help educate and let people know. Now some people say, well, who's this Jill character? Like, what do I care? Why do I need to listen to her? And, and I think, you know, my own personal story briefly is I grew up in, in Canada and in Australia and Europe. I really had a live and let live attitude. I grew up in a more liberal culture than what I live in currently in the United States and had quite an open family. And I really believed for much of my life that pornography was for those that were lonely. You know, live and let live, what's the big deal? And then it wasn't until I was a practicing license and marriage and family therapist in those early years after my master's program that I realized, whoa, this is not so evolved and modern of me to Think that I need to take a stand. This isn't a neutral topic. And so I realized that this live and let live attitude that I had was, was not serving me certainly well and not those that I would serve and work with. So the more I got into the data, the more that I saw the effects in therapy rooms, I felt an urgency to get the word out and to highlight the research that there's hundreds and hundreds of studies that point in the same direction that this is doing negative things.

So what are, when you think of that, Jill, like, you know, someone talks to you and says, well, what do you mean? It has a negative impact. It's easy to generalize that. But do you have some top of the mind stats or data points that you kind of point to and say, hey, I mean, start here. And these are the things we know to be a reality because of all the data that's out there, or when you've testified to groups or Congress, what are the kind of studies that you have pointed to that you might give a. Obviously that could be a much, much longer conversation, but what are some of the main ones that you point to for, for those questions?

So some key things stand out. Some I summarized briefly a moment ago. But you know, there's, there's good information out there about what it takes to have a healthy, satisfying, long term marriage and relationship. We know the factors that go into that. And for example, a mutual belief. Both people having a mutual belief in the institution of marriage, fidelity, both people believing we need to be true and faithful to one another, body, mind, spirit, mutual respect, trust, intimacy that strengthens the marital bond, A spiritual foundation, which isn't necessarily religious foundation, but some connection over the sanctity of life and sacred things in life, and a belief that relationships are permanent. This isn't just a thing we do out of convenience. And when the mood changes, we're out of there. So when we look at those characteristics of stable and happy relationships, and then when we square that with the effects of pornography, they could not be more opposite. So when we look at the impact of pornography, and just as a quick take Note, there were 274 different distinct references to my testimony in 2005. There's hundreds of studies and just some key highlights of those. We know that those who consume pornography, it doesn't even have to be addictive. They have less desire to marry, less desire to have children. They're three times more likely to commit adultery. They're four times more likely to engage in paid sexual encounters. So escorts, prostitutes, they have Decreased sensitivity toward women and less progressive gender roles, meaning they have more backward ideas about men and women and they see men and women less egalitarian perspectives. And that, by the way, happens to women as well. The men shouldn't get all the bad rap with this. Approximately a third of pornography is viewed by females. We're seeing a rise in the number of females that are compulsive with this. And the stats actually show there's not that big of a difference between the males and the females who are compulsive in this area. 10% of males, 7% of females in adult US population. So when you think you have this material that's potent, it works very rapidly on the brain to change beliefs and attitudes and deaden one's spirit and spiritual sensitivity. This is really significant when you have something that we know that within 4 hours and 48 minutes of exposure starts changing beliefs about bodies, relationships, gender roles, that, that is something because in today's world, that's one sitting of pornography consumption.

That's right.

It used to be decades ago, 4 hours and 48 minutes, it would have taken some real work to, to motor through that many magazine pages. But nowadays that, that's pretty easily acquired. And so I think many of the attitudes that we're hearing about, rumblings of toxic masculinity and the manosphere, for example, I see it directly related to pornography consumption and the dramatic rise in that over the last 30, 30 plus years. We also know that pornography use contributes to decreased trust. So you need trust in a healthy relationship. And then when you tie in also sexual dissatisfaction, there's purpose and design for healthy sexuality to create healthy bonding and connection, fun, pleasure in a healthy context. So when you start polluting that and it becomes a source of pain and compulsion and darkness and shame, we've now cut out a real foundational point of connection for couples. And we know that pornography does that over time. So. And then the last thing that I'd point to is the increased risk of separation and divorce. Well, that, that's an obvious one. We can't have healthy marriages long term if they're at greater risk of separation and divorce. And there's university research out of the University of Oklahoma that has shown that the increased risk of divorce goes up by almost 200%. Greater risk of divorce, 200% for those that are consuming pornography. And that's not at addictive levels. That's just people that are consuming one or both partners. So all in all, I have yet to see information or data that shows long term this is helping couples form healthy, strong bonds and relationships. That's not what's happening. Even if people believe no short term, I really like this. This really gave spark or interest or we learned X, Y or Z, long term, that doesn't hold true. And for one or both, at some point, that is going to. This is what I see clinically happen in my slice of the world. It skids out from underneath them. One becomes compulsive with it or starts looking at more deviant material. They don't stay parallel in that experience, even if they're looking at it jointly, together, mutually. And they think this is great. Look how modern and evolved we are. We're a cool modern couple. This is what we look at. I don't see couples where that stays parallel and true over the long haul.

Yeah, no, you're right. I've, I've had women come to my. You know, we have groups for betrayed spouses and then groups for women who struggle. And I have definitely heard that from women, whether they're coming for betrayal or the other side, that they started off with pornography or started off even as swingers. And then something happened where it's like, whoa, we didn't agree to that. We didn't agree to that version where they, like you just said, skid it out from beneath. That's. And I recently heard a phrase that I just like captured. It's. Anything that creates reward without work is really dangerous and we should watch out for that. And I was like thinking of all these things, pornography, video games, social media, I mean, just credit cards. Like, we just can consume so quickly now without actually having to do the work. And it's, it's a. You have to be so hyper vigilant in those areas of our life.

Well, boy, I would echo that. And, and how easily sex in the. In a carnal perspective becomes one's God. It becomes this form of idolatry, I believe, where the constant pursuit of that overwhelms a spiritual foundation. So when we look at. Yeah, just exactly what you were saying, it's risky.

Yeah.

When as you share all Those, those stats, Dr. Jill, and those ideas, it could lead for some people who are listening to a little bit of the shame factor of like, yeah, this is so wrong. Why am I doing it? It leads to all these horrible things. What's wrong with me? And I, I just want to underscore for listeners that are in that place of you've battled this and you're trying to break free. This isn't meant to induce shame, but it is meant to remind us of what's true and what's real and why fighting to break free is worth it. Because we also know there's another part of our brain that has probably listened to some of the lies, things that our culture says, like, well, no one's being hurt, and it's just. It just feels good. And as long as it's consensual, it's all okay. And what's the big deal? That part of our brain sometimes needs a healthy reality check to go, no, people are being hurt. It does damage relationships. It's harmful to me. It's harmful to my family. It's harmful to my future. And I need that reminder of why this matters so much, because I do think the world downplays it and tries to say, what's the big deal? And the other side of it, too, that we've seen is how powerful it is when we're motivated to change, not just for our own good, but for the good of others. And so when I hear that this increases divorce, increases adultery, increases marital dissatisfaction, I can recognize I am standing against something that could impact my family or people I love in a negative way. And so I want to change, and I want to be a part of that change so that families see there's a better way and there's hope for others, and we're not participating in something that is so undermining families in our culture. So on the same, in a similar way, I think there's a lot of misconceptions or lies that are out there about the impact it has on a marriage partner or on relationships, because we do listen to phrases like, well, no one is being hurt, and it's not real. It's just fantasy, so have some fun, and they don't need to know, and what they don't know won't hurt them. But we also need reality checks in those places. And so, in your experience, what are some of the common misconceptions about betrayal trauma that may hinder effective support or healing, especially within clinical, pastoral, or peer support contexts?

It's a massive question. So, boy, there's so much to say about that. Let me. I'll anchor this in my own work first. And that is that one of the misconceptions that we've run into over many decades is that there's some. Something fundamentally broken or pathologized about the betrayed, that somehow, you know, they've let themselves go. They were codependent. They. There was something in their way of showing up in the world that caused a spouse or partner to turn to this material, which is just inherently an insulting message, but it's deeply flawed. And in 2010, I was part of a research group, and we wanted to. We wanted to look at this very question. Is there something different in the profile and makeup of women that have been betrayed through pornography, compulsive pornography use? And what we found was, no, they do not have any higher incident of mental health issues or psychopathology than regular population. The main source of distress for these women is marital distress because of the conflict caused by this issue. That's where they stand out, is the marital distress. Now, I want to say I'm going to trust the audience to be able to hold two things at the same time here, because I think there's a disservice in my field that says all. You know, don't ever suggest that betrayed adults need to work on themselves or have issues to address there. There are victims here. Treat them as victims. They're only on the victim side of this coin. And I do. I want to say very clearly to the audience, I do not believe it's possible to cause a pornography problem in someone else. I do not believe there's anything someone can do that makes someone go act out in these ways. Okay, so in that respect, yes, betrayed adults are victimized by these choices. At the same time, I do see as a betrayal trauma specialist, there's a rise in mental health issues across the board, and there is a need to address at some point in the treatment issues that may be exacerbating the response to betrayal. Does that make sense?

Yep.

So there is a place to say, look, this was not your fault. Let's help you. Let's establish safety boundaries and make sure that she's not seeing this as a commentary on her worth as a person. But for a growing number of betrayed adults that I work with, there is a need also to say, let's look at the past. Let's look at family dynamics or things that set up some of the ways the response to the betrayal has been intensified or even dysfunctional. So I hope holding those two things at the same time makes sense and is not confusing. We know that the primary distress is marital distress. These women are not more likely than the regular population to have psychopathology or psychological issues. And for a growing number, there are psychological issues we need to address that are complicating their healing process. That does not mean that's the cause of the betrayal. And I think that's been a source of confusion and misunderstanding in the field for far too long. So that's something that I think is really important. The other thing is that I really want to. I hope I can convey this in the way that I mean it. I, as a clinician and someone who's done a lot of research on the impacts of pornography, it worries me when people will minimize pornography and they will only hold up with alarm, full blown adultery or crossing the flesh line. I want to say loud and clear, engaging in pornography is deeply problematic, Deeply problematic. And there's a few things that actually make pornography issues harder to treat. And I'm highlighting this in answer to your question because I think this is a misunderstanding. We will minimize pornography. Oh, well, phew. Thank goodness it's only pornography that he's looking at. No, I've never met someone that started an affair at the age of 9 or 10, but I have met many, many, most of people are starting to look at pornography, especially in today's world, between the ages as young as 7, you know, 7 to 13 is the common window for exposure. So pornography use gets braided and integrated into psychosocial sexual development of people very differently than what we see with affairs or crossing the flesh line. That's a serious issue for sure. But pornography introduces deviance, distortion, changes in beliefs very differently than sexual acting out later in life. And so one of the misconceptions that I run into a lot is that, well, you know, I, that's bad. You know, it's too bad that her feelings are hurt that he's been doing this secretly. You know, what does that mean about her? Is she a prude? Is she not sexual, available? And it's just, I think, deeply misogynistic and insulting. No, this means that he's had this issue for a long time and brought this into the relationship. So I think understanding some of those pieces really shifts our orientation to be helpful to these men and women to understand. Look, there's a lot to unpack here and there's some real digging out that needs to happen.

Yeah, that was a big answer. You did warn us that that was like its own whole episode a lot. So good. And that's the thing, it's recorded. People can go back and take, you know, take a second. Listen, I wanted to emphasize or just go back to your, your first answer, you know, treading lightly. And we're not saying women are codependent or betrayed, spouses are codependent and they're causing this and co addict. But, but what you're saying, and, and I've experienced this too. Yes, I have abandonment issues from being raised the way I was without parents around and abuse. And all those things that were definitely poked on, exacerbated through John's pornography use is my finding out his past with prostitutes and that kind of thing. And I mean, really, when it comes down to it, whether you're a betrayed spouse or you're seeking out porn or drugs for addiction, or you lost your job, I mean, any trauma, any crisis, anything we face, if we haven't dealt with our root family issues, our attachment challenges or injuries, disorders, or understanding the way that we, we work in relationship, how we have been wounded in relation, if we don't, if we haven't done that work, then no matter what crisis we face, that's going to have a bigger response. And so we're not picking on betrayed spouses by any means. And, and just to emphasize we have to do our own work, but often it's a crisis like this that finally gets us to the point where we get into some kind of counseling or group where we're able to do our own work. And so I think that's why for me, I see a lot of women come through and say, I'm, I, I wouldn't want to do that again. But I'm thankful for the work I did and the post traumatic growth I experienced because my husband's addiction is what finally led me to a place, especially as a Christian, where you didn't need all that psychology, you know, to, to do the digging of my own past and understand my woundedness and my attachment style and, and all of that, to be just a better human and live in my Christ likeness and live out my purpose in a way that I never would have been able to if I never dealt with those root issues that I had, you know, but, so everybody should do the work if you're not in crisis yet. Like you, you know, Dr. Jill, you didn't have a betrayal, sexual betrayal story. You know, a lot of times we're, we're responding to people that come to us. But if, if you just happen to be listening to this podcast and you haven't gone through crisis yet, you haven't experienced a betrayal, trauma or addiction in the way that we're talking about it, then, you know, just find a good group to do some self digging and understand your own woundedness, your own upbringing, your own childhood story, your family of origin story, so that you know how to respond to life's crashes in a way that doesn't spiral even more.

That's so well stated. I'm so grateful for what you shared. And, and there's research to back up what you've shared. We know that those who have more trauma in their past and childhood will have more severe responses to betrayal in adulthood. Yeah, that, that's just what the science, social science says. That does not point to causation. That does not mean because you had more trauma you caused or you woke up one day and said, I'm going to go find a sex addict to marry. That's insulting.

Yeah.

But I do think we can hold both things at the same time to help more people, because if we only say, you're a vict, you don't need to do any work. This is all his stuff to sort out. I think we're doing a real disservice and we're cutting people off from, from deeper exploration and healing that will serve every area of their life.

Yeah, every area. I, I agree with you.

Yeah, well, and we're often limiting someone's ability to heal their marriage relationship because if the other person is the sole source of all the pain, all the problems, I'm the victim. We know if that's the topic in any relation, in any marriage and that's how it's being treated, that you are 100% the problem and I'm 100% the victim. That relationship, I think, has a much lower probability of being healed where both understand, I didn't cause this, I didn't want this, but I'm now impacted by it. And I'm also going to have to heal and see where I'm going to have to work this out. Then the marriage has a much higher chance of making it. And it's very much what my wife and I found. You know, I just as I discovered that shame, the use of pornography, tapped into the shame of my life and became part of that cycle. I needed to deal with the whole cycle of where was the shame coming from that was empowering the porn use and causing it to be cyclical. In a similar way, it was causing my wife pain, but it was also tapping into her pain cycle because there were places in her life where she had also experienced betrayal and things that were unfair and not being valued or hurt. And so it was tapping into that and putting her into a pain cycle. And if all she'd ever dealt with was the pain I was causing, it's unlikely that she had been able to experience the growth that she did because it became a way that she saw. Oh, how is this tapping into pain from my family of origin, from things that happened to me and elevating the way I feel in ways that I can find healing from. Whether or not my husband's doing his work, there's good work I can do to grow. And then as we both were growing in our own kind of through those places, it did empower us, I think, to build a better marriage. And so I love what you said there, that at the same time that both things can be simultaneously true, that, yes, I've been hurt, I've been wounded, there is trauma and it's tapping into deeper stuff that's making it all a whole lot worse and a whole lot messier. And there are clinicians and therapists and groups out there that are really trained to help you walk through that without in any way minimizing what happened to, but also without ignoring the reality of what you bring from your story and from your past.

Yeah, and well stated. And you know, the word shame's popping out and I realize that that's not the focus of our message today, but I just want to say that shame is a God given emotion. And I think in our culture right now, there's almost this allergy to shame that's cutting off a lot of growth and spiritual progress. We're supposed to feel shame when we're out of bounds or when we're getting the roles flipped between God and ourselves. When we're making ourselves God, it's going to flip that whole system by design. And there's shame that comes up for betrayed partners too, that I don't think gets enough attention. You know, why am I staying with someone that has. There's a lot of shame that comes up on that whole topic. You know, what's wrong with me that I'm staying or shame for leaving. Right. So to your point of, you know, I think the shame is an opportunity for healing. And shame is an indicator that we're not sociopaths. Right. That it indicates that we're not God, there's limits, that we're out of our integrity. And therein lies the opportunity to heal, to get back into integrity, back into alignment and wholeness and recognize where there's brokenness.

Yeah, I've talked with my kids about it. I mean, we, we say it a little bit differently at Pure Desire. We were, we. We try to separate. Like, okay, guilt is a good thing. It gives you warning. Having shame in the sense of like, I'm a bad person, I'm unworthy, is not where we want people to be. But I was telling my son this the other day. I think it was one of my son. It was one of my kids or my husband. I don't know, somebody. And they were saying, well, I feel bad about your. You know, your. You're making me feel bad, or now I feel bad. And I said, you should feel bad. When we do bad things to people we love or people we don't. When we do bad things, we should feel bad. That's an appropriate feeling for you to sit with. Like you said, it kind of says, you know, we're not a sociopath. Like, that's an appropriate response when you've done something sinful to somebody else, to feel bad.

Well, the distinction is so key. I mean, yes, we often hear guilts, you know, feeling badly for something we've done. Shame's feeling badly about who we are.

But.

But shame, if we can tap into that and learn how to use it, helps us realize that we're not God. And in the pornography cycle, people become gods where they. They feel like they are entitled to exploit and use the body and sexuality of someone else, someone they don't even know, or to exploit someone that's been trafficked or. That's a minor. The whole role reversal. There's something deeply flawed and out of integrity about that. So there. It's a big topic, I realize, but I. I would love more people to learn how to tap into shame as a. As a gift that can be used rather than something we're just trying to get a Get rid of. Yeah, we need it. We need it to be healthy, spiritually. Yeah.

I think I've made my best strides at growth when I've felt very horrible about something I've done or, you know, in a way, I've hurt somebody. You know, like you said, using it for motivation to not stay that way. Okay, that was so good. I feel like we could probably break this up into six episodes because there's so much here. So. All right. In what ways does betrayal trauma, especially when related to pornography use, impact a partner and the marriage differently compared to other forms of relational harm? I mean, and sorry, just to tie it back into what you were saying, like, about the marriage, you know, that the betrayed partner needs to do their work. Like, what makes the pornography use different than, let's say, oh, he works a lot lately, late at night, or, you know, other things that might be marital issues. I don't know if that's the question, but I am curious about your answer.

Well, it ties in with what I started saying earlier is, you know, the distinction between infidelity and porn use it often starts much, much earlier in a person's life. There's more of a deviant aspect to it, you know, when someone's looking at, you know, and without getting graphic, without going down a whole other tangent. We know from research this is not just my opinion or what I'm making up. You know, if you look at the top 10 genres of pornography that are most looked at, most of those categories are illegal forms of sexual behavior, you know, strong incest themes, etc. Etc. And so I think there's a deviance, something very illegal even about that. That whereas if I'm working too much, that's excessive, that's out of balance, that is going to do harm to my relationships and to my health, but that there isn't that deviant, exploitive, really good point. Element to it. Okay, now something that, and I. Not sure if this is exactly the question, but something that makes betrayal trauma distinct from other forms of trauma or relationship distress is that in betrayal, the person that I'm turning to as a trusted partner is the perpetrator of my deepest pain. We know from studies, when we've asked betrayed partners, if you were to rank all the worst, most horrible, dark experiences in your life, where does this fall? Most will say the sexual betrayal in a marriage was the most painful thing they've ever experienced. And so one of the things that makes that distinct and different from other types of harm in a relationship is that the perpetrator of your greatest pain is the person you're married to that's supposed to love, cherish, protect, that you may you've made covenants with. That really flips this whole conversation on its head because normally the people we would turn to are people, right? Our trusted people. When that's the perpetrator of our deepest pain, this is a whole other level of distress. Secondly, because it's someone we're in close relationship with, there's a higher risk of reoccurrence. If I have a natural disaster occur, my home burns down, heaven forbid, or I get jump downtown, you know, by a. Someone wielding a knife, the chances of those things happening again in my life, they're not impossible, but they're slim.

Yeah.

When I'm married to the person that's perpetrating this type of deception, gaslighting abuse and secretive behavior, the chance of that happening again without clear intervention is very high. Even if I choose to divorce that person, that's a process. So I think those are things that really distinguish this from other types of relationship annoyances or harms, even yeah, it.

Really seems to speak to the truth of scripture, saying that, you know, when we're united in marriage, we become one flesh. There is a oneness. There's. There's a togetherness that is intended in a perfect world of created order as God designed us. That our sexuality being deeply personal and intimate and that any kind of betrayal sexually strikes at that deep, personal, intimate place in our lives. I think it's why Paul says about, you know, the perpetrator, that, you know, sexual sin is a sin against your own body. If somehow it's different, it hits differently. And I think we could extend that also to the marriage partner. It has a depth to it that when something is fractured or broken there, it hurts in a way. Other things, you know, if you're an alcoholic, if your spouse has anger, issues like that can cause deep problems, but it doesn't feel as uniquely personal or striking at the core of my identity. And I think, again, it's because of the oneness that is meant to be in marriage that is being so deeply undermined in these kind of behaviors. And the depth of the feeling, I think, just speaks to the truth of how God made us for relationship with our spouse.

Exactly. And to build off that, you're attacking one of the key factors that makes the marriage relationship exclusive and unique, the sexual bond.

Yeah.

You're undercutting that. When we marry. I don't know of any religious traditions that says, you know, you're. You're agreeing and saying I do to this person, along with the thousands of others of fantasy or real or imagined people that he or she's going to eroticize and. And use sexually. That's not the agreement. That's not the arrangement or contract or covenant. And so, you know, if a spouse is not putting the garbage out, maybe annoying, may even be disrespectful, but it's not attacking and jeopardizing the covenant. When you start undercutting that, It's. It's deeply destabilizing, not only to those individuals, but to families and societies. If we look at marriage and the family as a fundamental building block of. Of society, these issues start threatening and jeopardizing that whole building block. And that's a big deal.

Yeah. And, you know, our sexuality is something that we keep private to ourselves. I mean, we cover our bodies. And a lot of us, because our churches and families either didn't talk about it or it was a don't do it till you're married. You know, we have all these. Really, the majority of us do not have healthy upbringing, you know, or healthy conversations in our upbringing from the church and our family. So there's some so of messaging distortion, feeling of discomfort, shame that we have to work through in our sexuality. And that's something where once you decide to give it to somebody and trust them with that, when it's been broken, it like you're saying it's not the same. It's not like I trusted you to take out the garbage can. Like having to work through my own narrative of my own sexual identity and then be willing and vulnerable to, to offer somebody that and trust them with that and then have them abuse it in the way that, you know, I've experienced before. It's. It is a shattering like no other. And then on that same side, because I didn't work through my childhood stuff before crisis hit, I. I idolized my husband. So because my, my thing was love addiction and finding my worth in other people. Then when I got married, it was like, I've arrived. I have what I've been searching for. And so just God having to completely deconstruct and that idol that I had and bring me back to the person you trust most is still not a trustworthy person. I'm the only one that will never, you know, let you down, abandon you, and just rewriting what healthy reality looks like in relationship with other flawed humans is. It's just a vulnerable place to be.

You know, when I think what you're saying, Ashley is so key to the solution and to the healing path is if she is idolizing him and he is idolizing pornography, there's no one looking out for her.

Yeah, yeah, right.

He's got eyes on him and he's got eyes on these thousands of people, but no one's looking out for her. So in the healing path, in the healing process, it's essential that we establish safety. We stop the bleeding. There needs to be sobriety established and defined. What does that mean? But we need to help her restore a proper placement of what's her center.

Yes.

Yeah, right. Who and what is her center? So self care. Re establishing, you know, in. Certainly in a religious framework, you know, putting God back in her center. Yeah, he can't be the center. He's. He's a flaw, fundamentally flawed center. She can support and be joined with him, but he can't be the center. So that whole process of moving back an appropriate center is so key. And the safety, work, boundaries, boundaries is. And there's so much to say about that topic, but that's really where the Key building blocks of effective recovery work start is who and what is your center? How do I restore and take responsibility for establishing safety for myself? And some of the grief work of recognizing, hey, I've had my eyes on him instead of where I needed them, including myself.

So Dr. Jill, from your perspective, as you've already mentioned, a couple, what steps can betrayed partners take to foster their own healing, to support their need for safety and stability while navigating the understandable cycles of distrust and emotional protection they may still be in? So it's kind of this, this two sided dynamic of they may be in a marriage. As you said, the likelihood of it happening if my spouse isn't taking significant steps is still present and yet I need to begin to find safety and support. What, what steps can betrayed partners take in that scenario?

So going back to an earlier question to answer this in, in my doctoral research with betrayed partners, my question was what works? What do we know works to help people that are thriving and engaging and experiencing post traumatic growth? And what I found were there was five key characteristics to those that were thriving and healing and it made the acronym caved C A V E D C is connection. We cannot remain isolated. The majority 68% of betrayed adults will experience severe to moderate isolation. So connection find and it's going to be a hunt. It's not going to be just obvious finding the people you can trust, whether they are paid professionals, friends, part of a 12 step group or a group at church. But not staying in isolation is essential. And I say that as a fellow introvert. For anyone who's introverted out there saying no, no, no, no, no, I don't. The group thing's not my thing. Don't tell me to do a group. I'd say get in a group, get into a 12 step community, work that muscle. No one, no one heals in isolation. The second is advocacy. Everyone that we know who's thrived and doing well has, even if it's just one person that's an advocate that believes your story says enough is enough, I'm going to help you get out of this. And that's key. That may be a clergy, that may be a 12 step sponsor, that may someone that can advocate and align with you. V is validation. People need to be validated, told they're not crazy or losing their minds, told you know that you didn't cause this, you're not going to control it, cure it and you didn't cause it. They need to be validated in this very unique piercing pain. E is Education, getting good education about what is betrayal, trauma, what is compulsive sexual behavior, what does recovery look like? There's a whole educational component that I can't emphasize enough. When I see people with good education, they make better choices in their recovery pathway. And lastly is direction. All of us, when we're thrown for a loop and, and you don't know which, which end is up. Everybody, myself included, needs help and guidance to know, where do I go? What do I do with this? And so if someone were asking me that question, I'd say look for specialized help. Look for someone who is a betrayal trauma coach or a clinician that has specialized training in this issue. This is a different type of trauma. This is a different walk than just a general provider. Someone may be the best clinical psychologist on the planet, but if they do not have training in this specific area, I think at worst harm can be done. And at best they're going to spin their wheels and not get as far as they could quickly enough. So get specialized help. And really the first steps, when I meet with someone early, early on, we do a safety inventory. And we need to get very clear on what are the risks. And some of those risks are her health. She may not be sleeping, she may not be able to be functioning at work or in her parenting responsibilities. So that safety and stabilization is the first step. Helping her connect with supports, stabilizing whether it's depression or sleepless nights. That often involves medical intervention. You know, meeting with a psychiatrist or doctor, even if it's short term. Hey, we've got to get you sleeping, we need to have you eating. Some of it's really basic, but that early safety work is key. And stabilization, then as that gets in place, the second phase of work is what we call processing the grief work. The deeper trauma work, the looking at family of origin patterns to determine what were some of the setups to what's influenced how we're responding to betrayal today. And then lastly is moving forward. Now, I say those so quickly in the matter of seconds, right? But I'd want people to know it's years. This is most often a many years process. And that's one of the things I think people get wrong on both sides. Both he and she underestimate the time it takes to deeply heal. And I don't say that to discourage or think, oh, you're not going to feel better for a long time. That's not my message. I think people can find relief and start feeling better pretty quickly. But the deeper work, I hope people can Hear this as a validating message that validates the depth of this injury. This is a major, one of the deepest attachment wounds and ruptures. It's going to take time to deconstruct and wade through all the pollutants and contaminants that have been there for a long time. That's not a quick fix. So I share that in a spirit of validation of the depth of this pain, but also in a hopeful message that it's doable, people can overcome this. But this is not going to be a few weeks or months.

Yes, I mean, and that was a great answer to the betrayed partner who wonders why do I need to do work? Or is it going to take the same amount of time for me to heal as it does my partner who hurt me? And the unfortunate answer is it does take a long time. And it's okay to be mad. I mean, I know I felt that way, like I'm a busy mom, I work, I do all these things, I take care of other people in my family and now I have to have the burden of doing more work, homework, all of this. But we have the choice to not stay stuck in this devastating injured state, the victim state. We don't have to stay stuck there. We get to get, they come out. But it does take work. It absolutely takes work. In our recent study that we did when we partnered with Barna beyond the porn phenomenon, it said, and I can't remember because I don't have a study right, right in front of me, but I think it was like 46% of women or betrayed partners feel like they haven't all the way healed somewhere around their number. I might be quoting it wrong, but to me that, that feels so hopeless and miserable to think you're just stuck in this state of not feeling completely healed when it's such a deep injury. So my encouragement would be to do the work. It's such work.

Because really, and I'm not saying this tongue in cheek, what's the alternative?

Right?

If you don't do the work, what's the alternative? I think this is a win win. You're going to come out stronger and more self aware and having completed more emotional work than if you don't, you know, many years ago, and I'll close with this story, I was in a very serious 13 car, near fatal car accident. Terrible. It was in Canada, black ice. You know those pile ups that you see in the news? I was in one of them and I was not driving the car. I did not cause the black ice I did not car. And we were. I think our car was 11th out of the 13. So that accident started before we got anywhere near that scene. Now, if I had said I needed help getting out of the vehicle, so there were first responders helping us out. If I had said I didn't cause this accident, I wasn't driving a vehicle, leave me alone, I don't need attention, focus on the driver. Yeah, I really would have done myself a disservice.

Yeah.

You know, if I had not gotten my back checked out and. And cared for, I would have been dishonoring me. So I think the blame and the causation too often gets inflated with, this is an injury. Trauma is not a sickness or illness, it's an injury. And just like I was deserving of care and help to get out of the vehicle and attended to, people that are betrayed, deserve and need to be attended to and deserve that injury to be healed and cared for and supported, embraced. And that does not mean. And. And yes, I mean, what a hassle. I was in the middle of university studies. That was majorly inconvenient, didn't like it. I wasn't happy about being in an accident like that. I didn't cause it, didn't ask for it, and it happened. So what's the alternative? I. If I refused all care for my back, I probably would still have back issues today. So I think to look at as an opportunity, and I'm not saying that in a Pollyannish way, because what's the alternative?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Such a good example.

Yeah. And Dr. Jill, we have couples on the podcast that share their story, and it's amazing to me how often they will say something like, if we could go back and change anything, we wouldn't, because we don't know any other way we could have gotten to this level of healing, of growth, of change. And yes, it was messy and painful and the hardest thing we've ever done. And it's created such incredible good in our lives. And we've heard that also from betrayed spouses when the marriage didn't make it because of other choices that spouse was making, that they're saying the same thing of what it did in me. Yes, it was hard and it was not convenient, but what it did in me ultimately was so good because it brought me back to that center. It brought me to who I really am. It helped me understand where I had put my hopes in a person rather than in Christ. It created all this momentum for them that they can look back and say, I can see how the work was worth it because of what it did in me and for me and who I'm becoming. And so for anyone who's listening, who's on the front end, saying, this sounds like a lot of work and time, and I don't know that I can afford to take this journey, you know, hear the voice and message of others saying, there is such good that comes of this. And, yes, it can be messy and painful, and it can be incredibly rewarding. And as you said, Dr. Jill, it's not like there's years and years of suffering as you get. Like there does, I think, come a joy of hopefulness and of seeing transformation and new things happening that leads you even while you're continuing to face some of that hard work.

So, yes, yes, well, well said.

Okay, Dr. Jill, what guidance would you offer to couples who are deeply committed to rebuilding trust but feel overwhelmed by the emotional pain and uncertainty that often follow betrayal, particularly when pornography use is involved?

I know this is going to sound cliche, but I think it's. It is one day at a time doing the next right thing, realizing the work is worth it. And the alternatives are not pretty. All of us are going to age. Not all of us are going to emotionally grow up. And this is a crisis that has brought forth an opportunity to emotionally mature and grow in ways that, yes, no one asks for. And yet here we are. So we either link arms and do the work or we don't. And there are people that I meet that don't, and they usually become calcified and bitter and stay emotionally stuck. Yeah. So my encouragement is when you meet individuals or couples that have really engaged recovery, not just sobriety, because sobriety is what we stop. Recovery is what we start and how we show up relationally different. It blesses their families. I mean, this is generational wealth right here. Right. The legacy of recovery is a profound gift to leave. So I would encourage people to leverage this pain, make it worth it. You know, it's here, so bless it and work it. And there are more resources than ever before. I'm so grateful that we are where we are now versus 25 years ago, when there was so little available. You know, your podcast, your ministry is a testament to the growth and all that we've learned over the years. And so I would just encourage couples to access it, seek it out. If you find the right. The wrong provider, keep searching. The right people are out there.

That was like two minutes of absolute gold. I could go back and listen to that. You had.

So you just created like four T shirt lines.

I know there were so many one liners in there that I'm like, okay, I'm writing that down. I'm writing that down. The one I'll focus on. All of us will age, not all of us will grow. And I think that's in front of every single one of us as listeners today. Whether we are on the betrayed side or the addict, struggler, betrayer side, we're all going to age. And five years or 10 years down the road, you will be that much older. But will you be any different? And I think that's so much of what you've shared with us today is we could be very different and we may not be able to control another person or what choices they make, but we can dictate what steps we take one day at a time to continue to grow and learn and mature. And that five year down the road or 10 year down the road self, I think we'll look back and go, wow, look at the journey that we've been on. If we'll continue at these hard things that do shape us. And we're grateful to be one of those resources that people might be using along their pathway and along their journey. Dr. Jill, this has been so, so good. Tell our listeners where they can go to hear more from you to see your content. Where would you direct them today?

Thank you for that and thank you for having me. This has been really a delight. So my website is the best source to contact me or learn about my work and that's Triple W drjillmanning.com and then people can also follow me on Instagram. Dr. Joel Manning and involved in a variety of work and writing and offerings in this space.

Yeah, well, we will be sure to put that in the show notes listeners. We would highly recommend you go and check out the website and follow Dr. Jill. As you've heard today, she has so much to share with us as we close today's episode. We hope this conversation has deepened your understanding of betrayal, trauma and the complex, often hidden emotional toll it takes on individuals and relationships. But we also hope that it's given you. Hope that you've seen some practical steps that you can take. And maybe that caved acronym or something else that Dr. Jill shared today will stick with you for a long, long time. And whether you're a partner seeking safety or a couple striving to reconnect, take heart in knowing that with support, patience and the right tools, recovery and restoration are within reach. Dr. Jill, thank you again for being a part of today's conversation.

Thank you. Such an honor.

And if you're a fan of today's content, please subscribe, share it with somebody else. Write us a review. All of these are ways that more people can find this life giving content. And if you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, you can visit us at Pure Desire Journey on My friends, you are not alone.