434 - How Pastors Can Help Even if They're Not The Expert w/ Dr. Barbara Steffens

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. Today you're listening to episode 434, and it is part four, four out of four, of a series we've been doing on healthy pastors and healthy churches. And my guest today is one of my favorites. Dr. Barbara Steffens has been working in this area of recovery for betrayed spouses for a long, long time. And so with that, she's also worked with couples. And we had a conversation today about how our pastors and leaders can be equipped to be helpers, even if they're not the expert. Because we know that most pastors leaders did not get into ministry because they wanted to be an expert in sexual addiction. We know that most seminaries and Bible colleges don't offer much coursework or direction around this. So many leaders enter into ministry ministering to people that we know statistically, so many are battling with sexual brokenness or issues in their life. But the pastor or leader doesn't feel equipped. And far too often that means they might not do much of anything. And our hope is that today's show is an encouragement to any pastor or leader to say you can be a vital part of someone's healing, even if you're not the trained professional or the expert. And so if you're a listener who is not a pastor or a leader, I think you'll get a ton of ideas today of what healing looks like and what church culture might do to be a part of that. And also you might become the resource in your church that could approach a leader or a pastor or a friend in ministry and say, hey, here's some great ideas of a way that you could help the people in our church that are struggling. Because we really believe that ultimately churches must be that safe place, that first line of defense or contact that when someone is struggling, when there's an issue that comes out, that the church is the safe place. And I think today's conversation really propels people towards that. So this may be the podcast that you share with a friend, that you share with your pastor. And if you had this episode shared with, you know that someone did it because they care about you. They believe that your church can be that safe place. So a little bit more about today's guest, Dr. Barbara Steffens. She specializes in helping women recover from sexual and relational betrayal and is a sought after speaker and presenter on special issues related to partners of sex addicts. She is a retired mental health counselor and a board certified coach. She's the founding president of the association for Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, more informally known as appsats, an organization that provides training and certification of clinical partner specialists and partner trauma coaches. Barbara also consults with other professionals and provides training for those who want to help partners heal or to become trauma informed in their religious communities. Dr. Steffens is co author of youf Sexually Addicted Spouse How Partners Can Cope and Heal, which has dramatically affected change in the lives of betrayed partners and and the professionals who are trained to serve them. So here now is my conversation with Dr. Barbara Steffens, how pastors can help even if they're not the expert. Dr. Barbara Steffens, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. As always, it is so good to have you.

Oh, it's so good to be here. Thanks so much for what you do. I just want to say that right, right off the top, thanks so much for what you do.

Absolutely. And you as well. We feel like today's topic is a vital one and a challenge for so many because pastors are trained and equipped in many areas. But as we've discussed on other podcasts, sometimes an area that is lacking or they haven't received much formal training on is this whole area of sexuality, sexual addiction, betrayal, trauma. And yet we know statistically that it's happening in every congregation in America and around the world. And sooner or later someone's going to come to the pastor and say, pastor, this is happening. Can you help us? And we wanted to just create a space in today's conversation to equip leaders and pastors, whether they're a paid pastor or an informal lay pastor, to have some good approaches when those opportunities come. And so let's dive in. I'm mentioning it a little bit, but why do you think many pastors feel unequipped or hesitant to respond when someone discloses sexual addiction or betrayal trauma?

Well, it's a pretty scary topic, especially if the person has not had any kind of training before to know how to respond or to understand what it even is. So I think that's the first one is just lack of knowledge and so lack of comfort, not knowing what to say, what to do. So it's really good that we're going to chat about that. I think another reason may be sometimes the leader's own issues that may be going on. And so they say, well, I don't have integrity with this right now. So how in the world can I step into this with this other person? I think that's a good reason to not step into it if you are struggling yourself. So that might be an issue as well. But most of the time, it's because they've really never understood or had information given to them about, what is this? Is this really an addiction? Why is this woman, this partner, responding so strongly? I don't know what to do with that. She's really too big. So it's just overwhelming. I think, for them. That's why they just need a little help.

Yeah. I think about the conferences we've done, and one of the questions we will ask the audience is, we'll say, how many of you grew up in a home that talked openly about sex or sexuality or sexual things in a positive manner? And routinely, less than 1% will raise their hand. I mean, in a room of 300 people, there might be one hand that goes up. And I think the same could probably be said not only of our homes, but of churches in general, that it's just not a topic we discuss. And I think, particularly older generations. I mean, my dad and I have had that conversation where he said, it just wasn't something you talked about at church, at home. It kind of just kind of got left in the shadows. And so I think about that, that pastors are real people growing up in real families and real homes and churches, and if they grew up in an environment where it was never discussed. And then, as I've already said, you know, most seminaries and Bible colleges don't really teach on this or make this part of the class curriculum. So now you've gone to seminaries that don't talk about it, and then you're the pastor. You don't even have a context or a framework to know, well, how would I bring this up? What do I say about it? I mean, certainly there's Bible verses I can point to that give, you know, kind of the moral direction of what's sin and what's honoring to God. And that tends to be the big issues or the obvious things. But beyond, you know, teaching right and wrong, I think a pastor feels like I just don't have a context for it. And it. It may be like if. If someone came to me and told me they had some, you know, disease or ailment that I had never heard of, and they're looking to me for help, it's like, what am I supposed to. Like, I've never heard of this. Go talk to someone that understands it.

And.

And even though we are all sexual beings, I think a pastor may feel that way if someone says, you know, I've been acting out in this particular way, or I've been addicted to pornography, if it's not their world, if it's not their context, like, what do I even say? And so I think you're right, that that lack of knowledge, lack of training, and lack of just familiarity with the conversation itself keeps us silent. And yet the truth that we are all sexual beings and we're all facing some level of sexual brokenness, growing up in a fallen, sinful world says that we can be more conversant, we can be more educated in this, because it's not a bizarre, unique thing for a few people. It's part of our human experience. And I think that's a lot of what we want to do in our conversation today is just say, this can be something that, with a few helpful ideas, some basic understanding, you can get a person pointed in the right direction without having a master's degree or a doctorate on this topic. You don't have to be the expert to be a helper.

No, no, we want them to be helpers and to be able to respond with care, compassion, and empathy. Sometimes a first response might be around a sin issue. Well, this is sin. You need to stop it. And so you give a prescription like that rather than leaning in and listening to, tell me more about this. What is this like for you or what just happened to you? So having the conversation around it, I think, is the first, most important step for a pastor or a leader. If someone is brave enough to come and tell you this, then lean into it and ask and have that compassion. Don't just jump to Bible verses and managing sin.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being willing to have the conversation, being open to it, a vital step. Let's talk a little bit more about that. Other steps from your experience, what are some of the most helpful first steps a pastor can take? You know, someone knocks on the door, comes into their office, says, can we talk? And they disclose, you know, ongoing sexual addiction or sexual struggles in their life. Or maybe they're the betrayed spouse and they're revealing what their partner's been doing. What are some of the initial steps? You know, as they're having the conversation, what else could they do in that initial conversation to really be a helper?

I think the most important thing is when you are being a helper, listen and listen to understand, not listen, to be able to respond really fast, but listen to what is this experience for them. How did this happen? How are they feeling about it? What is it that they might need? Or what are they looking for? But listen to understand the experience, to understand the emotion. Usually if someone is coming into their faith leader, they're coming in either because if they're struggling with their behaviors, they're at their last step and they just don't know what else to do. So they're. They need something, they need encouragement, or they're coming in and they are in crisis because this has just been found out. If it's the partner, she just discovered it. So they are in crisis, they are in pain, they're confused, they don't know what to do, and they're so afraid that people are going to make judgments about them. So listening to understand gets to their feelings, their experience, what they're asking for. So be curious about it rather than definitive, giving them definitive next steps. You must do this. Have you done that? So fewer questions. Unless it's questions like, wow, what is that like for you? How can I help you? What are you hoping I can do to help you today? Ask what it is that they're looking for. Those kinds of first responses will show that you're open and that even if you don't understand, you want to understand them and their experience and their needs. That's going to help them feel safer and heard and cared for. And that's what pastors want to do, right? We can't care for the sheep.

That's. That's a great word. And it reminds me of some of the things, as I was a pastor that I would try to focus on is I, you know, may not have felt like I was an expert in the area, but I did feel that I was equipped and called to be a spiritual guide and, and resource in that regard. And so often, you know, we find that people are deeply struggling with their view of God, we with their belief about whether his anger or judgment or wrath, or just feeling like I can't even pray because of the things I've done. I'm sure God's not listening. And I think there's a lot of rich area there that a pastor can gently wade into of like, you know, where are you at in your prayer life or your relationship with God? Or do you. Do you see him as someone with you in this pain or standing off, you know, afar judging you? Because I think there are many areas that we can provide as pastors and leaders, you know, spiritual comfort. And that may, you know, that's not the same as putting someone on a Healing pathway. But there can be a lot of, I think, unresolved misconceptions and lies that we believe about God within our sexual struggles. And I think a pastor is tremendously equipped to help in that area. And then one other thing that comes to mind when I would be having these conversations, I knew that in my role and how I saw pastoring, I wasn't going to be the long term person walking with them.

Yes.

And I often didn't have the capacity for many meetings or check in calls, but I knew that they were going to need people around them that were committed to walking that road with them. And so that's something I would very often be trying to think about, hopefully while I was listening. But thinking through who are others in our congregation that this person maybe knows or has connection to or that are available that would likely have that time and capacity to really walk the road with this person, to be even that daily check in phone call of hey, can I pray for you? How are you doing today? Because if I know that's not me, then I'm looking to say who could that be and how could I help create that connection? Because I do know, and I believe pastors know this, that ultimately if someone is in crisis of any kind, but particularly maybe around sexuality, they're going to need community, they're going to need support. And how can I create that? Of course, you know, with what we do at Pure Desire, we would hope they would have a group to recommend to, but we know that many churches don't. And so that can be the starting place if there's not an immediate group context available. Who is another person that I trust with maturity in this area that could become a real ally or support, whether to the betrayed spouse or the struggler. Because that can really give them hope to know. Oh, there are people that understand this that I can go to and that can be an ongoing support as I walk this journey.

Yeah, you know, that really brings up something. Had lots of conversations with people who have gone to their communities of faith at the time of crisis. Maybe they're exposed or discovered or it's the betrayed partner and they have a conversation with this faith leader and then they never hear from them again. And they're not provided a link to someone else who might be able to take on that role. So I think that that's really good that you highlighted that if, if you know, Pastor, that you only have limited time and I can talk with you for an hour today, but I know on my schedule I'm not going to be able to see you again for three months, three weeks, then be really clear and honest about that and say my role is going to be your first contact. And then I am going to help you find the resources and supports that you need rather than feeling like you are the one that has to take it on because of course you can't. You have other things you need to do. But being the pastor can be being that first person that has compassion and empathy and care and then refer, refer them on.

I'm glad you said that because in my own story, that was something I experienced where I felt deep conviction and in practicing James, chapter 5. There were several points in my story. As a, you know, late teen and in my 20s, I would confess to someone, a pastor, a mentor, a friend. And in many of those cases I think I carried, whether I ever understood it or, you know, consciously was thinking about it or not, that I had an expectation that now that, that I'd confess that they were going in some way to help bear my burden, that they were going to at least occasionally circle back. Hey, how are you doing? I've been praying and a few did, but many more, several more, never. It never came up again. And so it created even this awkwardness of I've, you know, not come back to them every time and I'm still kind of stuck in this pattern. They're not asking me. And it actually, in a couple of those relationships created a little bit of this barrier of now I'm not sure how to bring it up, but they're not asking. And I think maybe I carried an expectation that now that they knew and I brought this burden to them that they were going to participate and if that wasn't their expectation, it would have been great for that clarity and, or to even every couple of months have someone come and say, hey, we talked, you shared. I'm so proud of you for the honesty. How are you doing and how can I help? A simple call or conversation like that could be really life giving.

Yeah, I think that that makes all the difference. Defining what your boundaries are. This is what I can do, this is what I can't do. But here's someone that will be checking up on you. Or is it okay if I check up with you once every month just to see how things are going. The most pain I hear from especially betrayed partners is feeling like they, they came in and they shared everything and then were never talked to about it again. Or perhaps they received a message like, well, thank you for telling me and please don't Tell anyone else.

Yeah.

Wow. You know, kind of putting in this, the shame kind of feeling to it of I can hold this for you, but don't share this around because that might interfere with your loved ones work in the church or whatever it is, but having that person then being told, don't share it with anyone, but that's not helpful. I know in my experience, I called one of my pastors, he saw me immediately. He was wonderful. He cared, he leaned in, he gave me some ideas. He then had a conversation with my husband. He was wonderful. And then he didn't really contact me any longer. He did with my husband, but I didn't, as the betrayed spouse, I didn't have someone that I could regularly contact with through my church. And I find that's a very common experience for the partner.

Yeah, well, that's part of what we're hoping to change and create environments where people feel safe and supported. And last year we did this research project with Barna and one of the questions people were asked was, you know, who do you feel comfortable going to if you've got a challenge with repetitive pornography use? And the top couple of answers were a counselor and a doctor, which I think is interesting because those are professionals who are also under a professional code of confidentiality. And it's kind of like, what's their job for me to tell them? And they're not going to tell anybody else. But only 11% of people who were struggling with pornography said they would feel comfortable going to their pastor. And I, I feel like that's maybe more a statement of just the culture we're in where people don't feel safe than it is an indictment against pastors because I think in, in general, pastors are very kind hearted, helpful people. But there's, there's an environment that I think people sense this may not be safe to bring up. My church may not support me. So in that regard, how can a pastor or leader create a safe and shame free environment without needing to be the counselor or the professional in this space?

Well, I think the first thing would be to make sure that if this is the preaching pastor or whatever, he's up front, she's up front, that they talk about it. That the issues around sexuality or sexual sin or compulsion or betrayal, whatever those things are, that those are things that are part of the conversation on a regular basis or just even talking about difficulty in relationships or yeah, we go through hard times and then how does God show up when we're in these hard times rather than just talking about all the really good rah rah things. But talk about, you know, the valley of the shadow when we're struggling with things and make that a reality in your church, that this is an okay place. In fact, this is a good place to come when you're in this deep, scary place and you don't know who, you can tell. If you don't talk about it and use words around sexuality or brokenness or shame, words like that, then the person is not going to know, hey, this person might get me, might understand my experience and they don't want to experience more shame by exposing this and then not have it received. Well.

Yeah, it's a good word to be specific, to name things for what they are and not just speak in generalities. I've found it's really important in those moments. I think of a leader who says, you know, rewarded behavior gets repeated. And if someone senses that when someone in our congregation was honest or faced their issue, they were supported, they were cared for. And even in that moment, saying to someone, I'm so proud of you for, for your honesty. I'm so proud of you for asking for help. You are, you are in a place where God and others can meet you and we're so excited to be with you in this journey. Like, that's a very different environment of I'm, I'm kind of being honored for my honesty. And that, you know, that doesn't mean then we ignore any needed consequences or hard next steps that might need to be taken. But it's that posture of kind of celebrating where they're at as actually a step towards healing and not, you know, maybe the more critical or judgmental stance of what were you thinking? Or how could you or didn't, you know, and, and there, there is a place for truth. There's a place for, for hard things to be said. But I think when someone's in that very initial raw kind of here, it is any way that we create a sense of, I'm so proud of you for being in this moment, because this is a place from which God can do some incredible things. The other thing I found is when people are in that place, whether they're the betrayed spouse or the struggler, they often feel like they are now off mission with the church. Like, I'm kind of now in a unique place. I'm separated from the body. We've got this going on. I've had these issues. I'm not like everybody else. And I think any ways as leaders and pastors that we can say this is the mission of the church, you know, and, you know, like at the church I was at, part of our tagline was, we are, you know, real people living in a real world, following a real savior. And to say to people, this is you being real, and this is a real world problem that we're here for. And this is why our church exists, for people to find hope and healing over this area. And you're not now, like, in a separate group that get, you know, get better and then come join the rest of us. This is what we do as a church, is care for the hurting and the broken, because that's what Jesus did. And the fact that you're right now in a place where you're broken and needy doesn't disqualify you from being part of the body. There may be unique things that you're going to step into, whether counseling or group or, you know, marriage support, that they may not see everybody in the church doing that. But even as they take some of those steps to just affirm, this is what it means for us to be the body, and you are a part of the body that is saying, I need to get better in this area. I've got a sickness or I've got a wound, and that's what we do together. And I think, anyway, to just communicate that sense of togetherness, of being part of the body, because it's such an isolating place in life, can really be life giving for those that are in that situation.

It's also a space where the people that are coming or the people that are experiencing this are already filled with shame. I mean, shame is just everywhere in their being. Either the person who's struggling may feel shame. The person who was betrayed feels shame. What did I do wrong? What in the world? How did this happen to us? And so if you come with that shame and you are welcomed with love and grace and. And being held and cared for rather than kind of excluded and pushed away, that's healing. Jesus didn't do that. Jesus did not shame people. The closest he got to shaming people was. Was talking to the religious leaders who, you know, weren't being honest about who they are and what they were doing. So. So coming into a community that is shameless, it still holds people accountable and gives good words and good information. But if we isolate, we just add to the shame. And that is the absolute opposite to what is going to help someone heal from this.

So good. So I know I've heard you talk about many of these. Dr. Barb, what are some of the common mistakes that church leaders make intentionally or unintentionally when trying to support a betrayed partner or someone struggling with sexual addiction.

Oh, there's, there's a few. One that comes up probably the most often is that they. Pastors will think of this as a marriage issue, that there's something wrong in the marriage or this would not have happened. And I really want them to understand that it's something that has happened and is impacting the marriage, but it's not a reflection of the marriage. It certainly is impacting and affecting how they relate. Someone has been holding secrets, but it's not, it doesn't require marriage counseling as we think of that traditionally it's. But it is something that has injured the relationship. So not rushing to have both people together, Both people are going to have extreme pain and concerns and so see them individually get their experience individually rather than always together. Another one that I hear that especially working with betrayed partners, that is pretty harmful is rushing to, well, have you forgiven yet? So this sense of some kind of spiritual, we call it spiritual bypass, where you're just going to jump over this horrible mess of pain and injury to, well, you know, you need to forgive. Forgiveness is a long term process. I have not met anyone yet who doesn't want to forgive once they understand what that is and what it is for them. But what they're hearing is get over it, don't be angry, don't talk about it, forgive and everything will be better. So that's, that's a big mistake. The other thing I hear is perhaps the leader, the pastor, listens to the story and they'll say something like, well, thanks so much for telling me. Please don't tell anyone else because that would injure your loved one's reputation. Hold it to yourself. And so being advised to keep secrets is not helpful in the situation. The biggest one that I hear, especially from the trade partners, is going and asking for help and maybe there's one meeting and then never, ever, ever contacting or questioning again, how are you doing? What do you need? So those are the biggest mistakes, not doing anything, shaming, rushing to forgiveness, throwing a lot of scriptures on someone, more like it's a band aid rather than, well, this is God's heart for you. How are you experiencing him right now? How can I help Pray with you or for you? In these dark times when you probably are having trouble doing that, I can do that with you for you. So that coming alongside rather than prescribing what to do and what not to do, avoid that what I hear you.

Saying in a lot of those, Dr. Barb is maybe a reflection of our uncomfortability around the topic. Because if something does come up out of the ordinary or that we're personally a little uncomfortable with, there's some human nature there that's like, well, let's try to kind of deal with this quickly, let's get some help and then let's go back to normal. Which for so many, sadly, normal is not talking about it, not really having a plan, you know, not having a group spaced recovery ministry that people can really thrive in. So it's, it's just outside of our ordinary world. And so we try to just correct quickly. And I think there is a mindset shift that as leaders we need to go through to say this may be uncomfortable for me, but rather than trying to just avoid or fix the uncomfortableness I'm feeling, I'm going to be willing to sit in it, I'm going to be willing to learn. And if, if someone comes to me with a struggle that is, is new for me, I'm going to support them and I'm maybe even going to, I'm going to go learn, I'm going to reach out to someone I know that, that does have this ministry in their church that I know has provided care and support and say, hey, what can I do to walk alongside this couple? Even if they know I'm not going to be their long term counselor, I'm not going to be meeting with either spouse weekly, on and on. Even if they know they're only going to play a little bit of a role if they have that openness to say I want to learn and grow myself too and not just try to fix it fast and go back to normal, I think that will show up in the way you lead. And I've found that too that people, when they come to their pastor, I think maybe a pastor thinks they're coming for expertise or spiritual direction. And often a person is looking for comfort not in the sense of oh, it's all fine, but that someone that will speak the love of God to them and an understanding of you're not alone and we're here to help. And those are words that pastors know how to say, they know how to address. And if we do that in a way to say, and for as long as it takes, we're going to be here to support you. And you know, that may not be my role directly, but we're here for this. It, it creates the space, I think then for couples to move towards healing, you know, and often in an individual way because of the differing needs. But what I also have seen is that tends to. Even if these are private conversations, somehow the culture of the church has a way of filtrating out, if you will, or leaking out. I'm not saying people are going around gossiping, but it just seems to become known in a church that, oh, if you approach our staff about this topic.

Right.

It gets shut down pretty fast. That becomes known one way or another. And then on the flip side, if. If there is a culture of grace, man, our pastors are so caring and helpful and, you know, they've created these connections that becomes known. And I. I think we all want in our church that kind of a culture that is just known for being caring, compassionate, kind, all the things we see in Jesus. And so that really starts in some of those moments and conversations. And if we're too quick to just try to fix it or make the pain go away, it will shut down some of the conversation. And I think we hear that at Pure Desire, where sometimes the past will say, oh, well, you know, we hardly ever hear about this at our church. And if you ask a few questions, you might, you know, I might kindly say to them, you know, it could be that you don't hear about it because people sense it's not safe to bring up.

Yeah.

Because we know from the statistics that it's common and that it's happening in your church whether people are talking about it or not.

Yeah. If you don't talk about it from the front or talk about difficult things or talk about grace or talk about. Yeah, there's hard, dark times. And the. These are the ways we want to be here for you, with you during those times, to acknowledge those. If that's not even talked about, then of course individuals aren't going to feel safe or welcome to go and share. Well, you won't even believe what just happened. They will feel too shame to come and do that. They'll know it's not the safe place. It's not the safe place.

So this is an interesting angle on that question, because many people may not be a pastor or leader, but they attend a church where they've perhaps heard some of these stories, maybe the very things you've said not to do, they know are happening, or that's the kind of advice their pastors are giving. What role could they play in approaching a pastor or a leader with grace and truth to talk about this? I mean, do we just pray and hope our pastor figures it out or what. What approaches might there be to address some of these things? If we know it's happening in our church.

I would say set a time to go have a conversation with that person. Let them know the information that you have. I've just become aware of this is happening a lot in our churches. What would it be like if our church started to talk about these things? So come in in a positive way and in a way of saying, I would like to see this more in our church. What do you think about it? So you're coming in, you know, again, wanting to assist and encourage, not, you know, blaming and shaming the pastor for not talking about these things. That would not be helpful. It won't get anyone very far. But to. To offer yourself as, you know, I'm not an expert on this, but I do have some information, and I'm hearing that this is happening in lots of churches. How might we start to respond to this? So if that's something that, you know, God would put on your heart is perhaps something, you know, and you know how to talk to someone about that, perhaps you're a person that can start to make a change in your church culture, even just by bringing it up.

One thing you said at the beginning there that's more important than many people realize is you said, set a time, make an appointment.

Yeah.

Far too often.

Yeah. Don't just grab them.

Yeah. People are trying to grab a pastor before a church service or after a meeting or they're on their way out the door. And often that's just a very difficult time for anyone, really. But I think pastors in particular, they're like, this is a lot to process. And I'm in the middle of, you know, trying to get ready for the service, or I'm on my way home to my family. And now I'm trying to think about that. And it's just often not going to have a positive outcome unless there's some space to have a healthy conversation. And what I would relate as a pastor in terms of, like, people maybe approaching me about my sermon or my leadership style, there were definitely people that came across as, well, here's what you're doing wrong. Here's what you did poorly. Here's what you said that was bad. Like, you know, in typical fashion, my internal reaction is, all right, well, thanks a lot. Really.

No one responds well to that.

But I had other people that really had a skill to say, you know, Nick, I want to help you impact more people. And I see your skill and I see the talent And I'm wondering if you realize that when you said this, this is the impact it had on some people. And just that approach, I was far more open, like, oh, you know, they want to help me. They want to see me do better. They want us to succeed and help. And I want to help people. And if I did something that was unhelpful or hurtful, I wanted to know that from someone that cared enough to really walk through that with me. My response was night and day different. And that sense of they really cared enough to say something was felt. And so when I would take that to this question of if you see that happening in your church, if you come across just pointing out everything your church is doing wrong and why don't we do this? And we need that ministry and you don't get a positive reaction from your pastor, don't be surprised. That's. That's a hard thing for any pastor to hear on any topic. But if you really are coming into that place saying, I want to help us minister to more people, there's broken marriages and we can really make a difference and hear something. I've heard that I'm wondering if there might be a different approach that'd be more helpful that. That can just be a better conversation in so many ways.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. So good to be able to do it that way. And that's how we're supposed to be with one another. Respectful and loving and open. But some couples do find their church, for whatever reason, decides, this is not our thing. We're not going to talk about it. We're not going to do it.

Yeah.

And even though I don't want to encourage people to leave their church, but for a period of time, perhaps you do go to a place that has more of that kind of environment for you. That would be helpful. And then when you're ready, maybe you can bring it back to the original church. But. But to ask people to stay in the church setting where there is this kind of like, we don't talk about this here, that's going to be really hard for that couple to really receive things in our church.

Yeah.

Just be aware of that.

Maybe the humility of saying a church can't be good at everything, they can't be trained in everything. And if your church is not well equipped in this area, find resources where you can get what you need, even if you still care deeply for that church and see all the other qualities they have. I think that's very true. Well, Dr. Barb, you talked a little bit about the dangers of spiritual bypass. And I know in this realm we can hyper spiritualize or over spiritualize, but that that can sometimes maybe overshadow the reality that there is a spiritual need that people care for, carry for deeper connection with God and awareness of his love. So what role does spiritual care play in the healing process for betrayed partners especially? And how can pastors provide that in a way that complements professional help or other steps of maybe facing the trauma?

I would say the spiritual care is gentle care. It's not going to be prescriptive care. It's going to be, what are you doing right now in your spiritual life that is helping you and how can you do some more of that? Or is there a scripture that you're aware of that when you read it, when you say it to yourself, kind of enlivens your heart or encourages you. So you're asking, what is their current spiritual experience and what might help them versus telling them what they should be doing or should be feeling or should be reading? But where is it hurting with them right now? What questions do they have for God that they wish he could answer right now for them? But to get curious about their spiritual experience rather than prescriptive, I think would be the most helpful thing.

Yeah. Within.

I know that when betrayed partners all of a sudden find out that something's been going on they didn't know about, part of the experience is, okay, God, where were you? And why didn't you inform me and tell me? Or why didn't you protect me from that? And that's a hard thing for people who have not experienced that to really understand that is. That's a spiritual question. And that's within the context of a spiritual relationship. And so they need safe spaces to explore that and to explore that tension. Yeah. So be curious about where they are rather than trying to prescribe.

Yeah. What comes to mind for me is that we really want people to know the compassionate, tender heart of God towards their pain, because we see that all through scripture. And if I can help someone have a deeper awareness of God's presence with me in my pain, his care for me as an individual that he sees, you know, every hurt, every wound, he holds every emotion. I mean, there's so many great verses in the Psalms and others that come to mind. I think that can be a tremendous gift because at the end of the day, when someone leaves my office or, you know, a meeting, if I've communicated to them that I care and I'm with them, that's nice. And might Be helpful, but then they leave. And that's probably not, you know, a day later when they're in the midst of a real crisis or the emotions are rolling over them to know that their pastor cared. Maybe it's a good thing. I'm sure it helps. But I think it's much, much more important in that moment that they have a sense that God is with them, that they're not alone, that he hears. And even if they don't understand, you know, the questions you asked of why didn't he prevent this or warn me, or that they can sense there is a God that cares deeply about me and right now, in this moment, is accessible to me, that's going to be more meaningful than just knowing that I care. And so I think we are looking for ways that we just help them stay attached to their faith and not, like you said, in the pain and hurt and confusion, carry that so over into a place that they sense separation from God. Because I think many do both. Addicts and betrayed partners feel a deep separation from God. And I think as spiritual caregivers, that's part of what we're there to try to navigate is, no, God is so present to you in this moment. And your awareness of that is. Is really some of the life and. And strength that you will need to go through a very difficult thing. And so anything we can do to provide that or. Or point someone in that direction, as you say gently, with. With compassion and good questions and curiosity, not just directive, I think can become, over time, a very significant part of someone's healing journey.

Yeah. Yeah. I talk to women if they're angry at God. Okay. Tell him that's a relationship. Yeah, that's a relationship with Him. And it can be okay that you're really, really angry or really disappointed. You are still moving in his direction or asking for his feedback or. Or his connection with you. One thing. I didn't get a lot of really good support when I went through all of this from my faith community. But one wonderful thing a pastor did was he opened me up to the Psalms. And he said, how about if you write one of your own, your own lament to pour that out to the Father around what you're feeling. And I just found that very helpful to do just that, to connect with him, Even in my anger, disappointment, confusion, because he wants to hear what I feel, what I think he's the person that I need to go to with those things. Even just writing their psalm where they're really yelling at God the whole time, it's still connection.

And there are many, many psalms we can turn to where David and others were doing just that. And sometimes in church, we kind of gloss over those ones because they're not. They don't make a fun praise chorus. So we forget that they're there. But that's what David showed us is like, when I'm confused and angry and hurting, I tell God. And in some of those psalms, David even has pretty. I think we would call it pretty poor theology, because he's not trying to write theology. He's trying to express to God what's on his heart. And I think that's what I hear you encouraging people in this painful situation to do. And that's beautiful. So what are some steps that churches could take to be more proactive in this area rather than just rating, rather than just waiting for the marriage to blow up or someone to come because they're in the midst of, you know, hitting rock bottom? How could we be more proactive to equip our staff and our communities to respond well to issues of sexuality and betrayal?

I think churches would do well to understand a lot of things, but certainly, what is sexual brokenness and what does that look like and what causes it? Where does it come from? It's not just because someday someone decides they want to go and get out of control in their sexual behaviors. It comes from a broken place. So talking about that, what does brokenness look like? So having sermons about what is sexuality, what is good, healthy sexuality, and then what kinds of things can lead to sexual brokenness? And then what helps us heal from those things? So acknowledging them is a reality. These are things that happen. So even just talking in that way, talking about disappointment, talking about trauma, talking about the. And giving examples in the Bible of people who had everything taken away from them or horrible times, and then what helped them. So you're talking about painful things, you're talking about hard things, not just always the rah, rah, happy things. I think that's the first step is just being more real about our life experiences as human beings this side of heaven. The other would be taking the time to get some additional education and training on how to step into these hard things, not only how to talk about them, which I think we can do, but how do you respond to that individual or that couple when they come to you? There are ways that you can do that. I do some trainings for faith leaders and pastors, and we talk about the pastor taking on the role of the first responder, that you're not the fixer you're not the counselor, you're the first responder. And then we talk about, well, what are some of the first responses that are helpful? And then how not to get yourself sucked into a counselor role when that's not what you have time for, to be clear about your limitations. But I think having some additional information or education, a little training around how do you be trauma informed, how does this infuse your whole church? But then also how do you show up for those individuals when they come to you? Or how do you set up a system in your church if it's not you, Pastor, who do they go to where they can get some assistance and be heard and then referred? So learn how to be that first responder in this situation.

Absolutely. I think it's amazing how much a little bit of training can equip us to become a helper. Like you said, the first responder. I think about in my story, my seminary training really didn't cover much of anything on suicide. And I did a couple of day training on some suicide prevention and care and even just learning a few of the questions to ask some of the stories, steps to take. Like I'm by no means an expert on like suicide prevention and everything to do, but I could ask a few questions and get a few things started that might be a real game changer if that situation was coming up or someone was in that place. And I think the same is true of sexual brokenness and betrayal trauma. We don't have to be an expert, but maybe a little bit of training, you know, having I get so encouraged when we hear from churches that say we're providing for our staff to do some of the appsats training to do the betrayal trauma for religious leaders. We're having all of our staff go through pure desire, sexual integrity 101. We're having all of our staff do this couple of day training because we just know our church is filled with sexual people made in the image of God as sexual beings. And sooner or later we're going to need to be there to help through something that happens. Let's equip our team and staff. And I think that idea of we don't have to go get our master's degree to help, we can get a little bit of training that then equips us to be that first responder, that first step and is, you know, using that analogy, sometimes a first, first responder saves a life, even if they're not the doctor or the medic or the ambulance. But they knew what to do at the moment it was needed and bridged that gap to the care that ultimately, you know, someone needed. I see pastors that same way. You might be the one to bridge that gap in a season when someone is, really has no idea what to do and yet you provide a little bit of framework that can get them started. I think that's, I don't want to say easier. I think it's maybe more straightforward than we think and we could encourage churches to take that step.

And it's doable, right?

Doable. Maybe that's the word I was looking for.

It's doable. Rather than having to be with someone through this whole process. If you understand your role is, I'm going to hear this and I'm going to be able to have compassion and care and I'm going to refer and I'm going to send you on to the experts or to this group or to some other thing that's going to be able to provide the long term care that you need. But if you don't have a first responder, then the person feels totally missed, isolated, alone, if they don't have that first response. It's a real gift to be a.

First responder for sure. So we've covered a lot of topics, a lot of ideas, and maybe a pastor or leader who's listening. Their, their brain is spinning a little bit. They've got a whole bunch of questions and, and fears and doubts. What might you say to that pastor or leader who feels right now a little overwhelmed or is fearful of getting it wrong? How could they still show up and lead? Well, as these situations come up.

I would just say again, I used the word before. Be curious. Be curious about the individual and what they're experiencing, what they need, rather than thinking about this is what I know how to do or I don't know how to do this. So just be curious about the individual. Be aware of who is around you that can help you do this. Who are the clinicians or coaches or groups in your community that you can connect with, refer to, or maybe get more information from? But rather than waiting for this event to happen and then being, oh my gosh, I listened to a podcast, I have no idea what they said. Start preparing for it now. Who does do sex addiction work in my community? Do I know a church that's running a group? Is that something I want to do? But to understand that this is happening, it's not like it's going to happen in the future. It's happening. So how are you placed uniquely to be Able to respond to it.

Yeah. Preparation has a way of breeding confidence that if that situation occurs or when it comes up, I've got a couple of counselors in mind. I've heard of a few ministries. I've had some really significant books or articles recommended that I, I can feel like I've got some tools at my disposal versus maybe having a little bit of that deer in the headlight sense of, wow, they walked into my office and just spilled a bunch of stuff that I'm like, where do I go with this? Who do I know? And in that moment, we've talked about it in other occurrences at Pure Desire that the time to fix the sails of the ship are not in the middle of the storm, it's when you're at port and you can do that work. And so maybe right now as a pastor leader, you feel like this hasn't come up much. I've not dealt with it. I hope you would hear from Dr. Barb and I that it's going to come up, it's happening around you. And there is also something about when we're equipped, equipped and prepared. It's almost like God then brings the opportunity to use the area we've been equipped and prepared in to minister to someone that maybe otherwise we would have missed it because we didn't feel prepared. And so taking a few of those steps, having a few tools in mind, thinking through what are the resources or people in your church that you could involve, then you're ready and you might see a situation that you could proactively be a helper in rather than waiting for the absolute crisis to occur where it's then unavoidable. So yeah, I would just echo that. Being prepared, having some ideas in mind, can go a long ways towards really being a caregiver in this area.

And show up with compassion, show up with your heart and your compassion. If you do that, you're going a long way in being able to be that first responder.

Well, Dr. Barb, this has been an amazing conversation. I always love hearing your advice, your compassion, your guidance, your experience. We are wrapping up a four part series here that we've done on healthy churches, healthy leaders, healthy pastors. And our goal is really just to try to move the needle towards churches being safe, but places to deal with sexual brokenness, to deal with betrayal, trauma. And as we wrap up the series, I'm curious, what would, what would you leave listeners with as some final advice of what do you feel? And I know it's a big question, but what do you feel might help in this current culture moment that we're in, what would help move the needle for churches to become that safe place to help men and women that are dealing with sexual brokenness and betrayal, trauma.

Don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid to speak about it, to be curious about it, to get information about it. But I think fear is a big barrier for all of us. We're afraid to expose what's been going on and to share with someone. But I think for a pastor, for a leader, there's fear there too, of I don't want to do it wrong, I don't want to miss it, I don't want to make a mistake. So get the information that you need so that that fear can be relieved. It doesn't have to be there, that you can be that person who can show empathy and care.

As you were sharing, I for some reason thought of the passage in John chapter 8 where Jesus encounters rather forcibly because of the situation, the woman who was caught in adultery and thinking about his response to her that he didn't try to counsel about, why were you doing this and how many partners have you had? There wasn't all this, you know, questioning. It was just his compassion of I don't condemn you and I see you, I recognize the situation you're in and that starting place of non condemnation. I'm guessing, you know, unfortunately, we don't know the rest of that woman's story, but I'm guessing that was a starting point for her of discovering there might be an image of God, of compassion and grace that she maybe hadn't encountered before. And I, I think what we've said throughout this episode that, and you said it so well, people are already dealing with tremendous shame in this area. And I think for churches and leaders just to be aware of that, that we can be shame reducers by speaking the love of Christ, speaking of the hope of redemption, and not, you know, trying to do the quick fix, but just becoming that place of grace and mercy and peace and being willing to lean into people's pain rather than trying to avoid or ignore it really displays the heart of Christ. And I think what you mentioned too, that people with a lot of sin in their life seem pretty comfortable around Jesus. And I believe that's what the church ought to be, that people with a lot of sin in their life should believe that the church is the place for me not to go and hide and ignore it, but to get to face it in a way that will lead towards redemption and freedom. So you're right. It can be a scary area because we don't feel trained or equipped. It seems big. There's all kinds of questions, but there are so many ways, if we just begin with curiosity, with compassion, with. With the willingness to walk alongside, that the perception of our church as a healing place can really happen. I think quite quickly. It's. It does take time to change culture long term, but some of these elements can real quickly create that. That sense for people that this church is a safe place and that's what we want. And I know it is for you as well, Dr. Barb. So. So key. So key.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, for you listeners, we're so thankful that you tuned into this series. And as we wrap up, we know one thing is clear, that pastors and church leaders don't have to have all of the answers to make a powerful impact, that they just need to be present, compassionate, curious and willing to create safe spaces. And I believe churches have a unique opportunity to become places of refuge and not of shame. So whether you're a pastor or a concerned church member, your role matters. And together we can build communities where the broken are met with hope and healing. And Dr. Barb, thank you for the way that you're a part of that and thanks so much for joining us for this important conversation.

Thank you so much, Nick.

And if you're a fan of the content of this show, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review, give this podcast a thumbs up. All of these are ways that more people can encounter this life. Giving information at a time when they might need it most. And if you would like more information about pure desire, groups, resources or counseling, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.