436 - Women’s Voices: Grace and Redemption Through The Women of Scripture w/ Teresa Whiting | Ep. 436

Foreign listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed source for healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 436, and here joining me as my co host throughout this series is the Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back.

How are you?

How you doing today?

Just happy to be here. As always, getting to highlight a new guest and a women's. Women's voice is fun today.

Yeah. Throughout this month, we are highlighting women's voices in the sexual brokenness and recovery spaces and emphasizing that they have so much to say. And today we got to interview Teresa Whiting, and I'll tell our listeners a little bit more about her. But today's conversation was really circling around what we see in scripture and the stories of so many women who have been impacted by sexual brokenness.

Yeah, I, I really like what she brought to the table, and I, I kind of touched on it a little bit in the episode. But we can find ourselves in camps of either clinical psychology thinking or just all biblical. We only need Jesus in our Bible. And I really like how she's using scripture to show God's heart to reduce shame and, and to allow you to show up in your brokenness as you are. Because sometimes we, we miss that when we're still living in our shame and we're in a Sunday sermon, we, we might pick up on the things that make us feel unqualified, and then we go home and we let that just take root and stir. And, and so I like that her, her heart is to show us God's heart for us in scripture.

Yeah. Teresa makes it clear that God and the Bible don't shy away from these messy stories. I will emphasize that this might be a paradigm shift for some of our listeners. Some of these stories that we talk about from scripture, you may have had a traditional way of hearing about them, as many of us have. And Teresa will offer some different ways of seeing stories like Bathsheba or the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery that I think might challenge you in your theology a little bit. But I think if you're open to it, there's just tremendous insight to be gained, particularly again, as you said, Ashley, around God's heart for the broken and those who are impacted by sexual brokenness. A little bit more about Teresa. Teresa Whiting is passionate about helping women discover the beautiful redemptive work of Jesus in the midst of their broken lives. As a pastor's Wife and ministry leader for almost 30 years, she has walked with countless women through real life struggles. She is a national speaker and host of the Find Hope Here podcast. She holds a degree in Bible with an emphasis on counseling. And her recently published book, Grace How God Redeems and Restores the Broken, is an outworking of her own story. She has found healing and freedom from shame through friendship with women like Tamar Rahab and the Samaritan woman. And so here now is our conversation with Teresa Whiting on when God redeems the Broken. Grace, sex, and women in Scripture. Teresa, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast.

Thank you for having me. I am honored to be on with you guys.

Yeah, we look forward to hearing from your expertise and thoughts and ideas. Before we jump in, though, it's your first time on the podcast, so would you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and who you do life with there in Florida, as we found out.

Yes. So my name is Teresa Whiting, as you mentioned, and I am married to Greg. We've been married about 30 years. Years. And he is a pastor. He's been a pastor throughout the whole time of our marriage. We are recent empty nesters. We have five kids. And that's kind of a fun story. We adopted a set of twins from Romania when they were two years old. And then a year and a half later, I got pregnant with my daughter, my middle daughter, and then when she was eight months old, I got pregnant with twins. So we went from zero to five in three and a half years. And it was crazy. And, and then. But now they're grown up and kind of spread around the country and we have three grandkids in Indiana. And I now get to spend my time writing and speaking and podcasting and kind of just a different season. And it's new. I'm still adjusting to being an empty nester, but I'm enjoying the. The opportunities that God is giving me to kind of do some different kind of work.

Yeah.

So in your writing and study and podcasting, what has led you to focus on the stories of women in scripture, particularly those that are often overlooked or perhaps really misunderstood people, Women like Tamar or Bathsheba?

Well, I think first of all is I love stories. I love just connecting with the heart of people, whether that's real people or people in scripture. And then I think their stories in particular reveal so much to us about the heart of God. And as we study different women in scripture and different people that Jesus interacted, I think we see God's heart Revealed in so many different facets depending on the person. And so I guess I'm pretty passionate about studying and sharing stories.

Yeah, that's so good. And again, like, we're highlighting women's voices on this series. And so it's really good to have all these aspects. And I know for me personally, I started off really diving in biblically just to find help through my struggles and my betrayal. And then I hit a wall like, this is not working. And then I moved over and I'm like, I don't want anything biblical. I'm doing all clinical and dove in that way. And then it's like, okay, my pendulum has now swung to the middle of like, ah, understanding it all and being inspired by the stories that we read. And just the picture of God is so important. And so I'm really glad to have you on here. Just that we can have that well rounded, holistic perspective that we need. We need the Bible. We need the truth that it offers and the stories and the way that we can relate and connect. And we also need the clinical things and understanding how our mind works and our brain and rewiring that and how it all folds together. So I'm excited just for the audience to hear more about what you do and your perspective on things.

Yes, I love that, Ashley, because I think we often end up in one camp or the other. And I think for me, I spent so much of my time being trained in biblical counseling. I have a degree in Bible and counseling, and I've been trained as a biblical counselor to the neglect of psychology and all the truth that they actually offer. And so I'm kind of coming in now from the other end, learning about the body and the brain and all the things that God created. And such an amazing thing to me to see, like, there's so much overlap that's not contradictory. I mean, maybe we're coming from a different worldview, but when you're talking about the truth of who we are and how God created us, it's. It's a beautiful marriage of the clinical and the biblical. So I love that you brought that out.

Yeah.

I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today is how we need to shift some paradigms, paradigms that we've maybe brought to stories from scripture that have had kind of a traditional interpretation that may not be very accurate to what we now know about just humanity and the body. I remember I was in seminary that when a professor of mine really challenged us in how we had been taught to think about John Chapter four, and the woman at the well. And like many people, and maybe you're going to get into this story as well, but like many people, I'd kind of grown up hearing about her as the immoral woman. She'd been married five times, was living with a man that wasn't her husband, and, and he brought up, said, I don't think this is an issue at all of her being immoral, because if she was truly an immoral woman, she would have never been married twice, let alone five times. That. The, the truth is there was something captivating and wonderful about this woman that then when a guy would get with her, he would send her away and she would get married again. And not because of her immorality, but perhaps just because of her strength and her smarts. And, and it just, I, in that, that one lecture was like this whole paradigm I'd had of John 4 changed in the way I viewed this woman and, and her needs to understand who would value her. And so I think looking into stories and understanding both the, the heart and the theology behind a story can make a big, big difference.

Yes, Yes. I love that. I think so many of the women in scripture have been misrepresented and mistaught over time. And, and we really, when you get down and like, dig into scripture, you see them in and you're like, oh, wait, that story I've been told my whole life isn't quite the way it plays out in Scripture.

Yeah, yeah, I, I noticed that after I was divorced from my twins's dad and I just dove into the Bible and I started seeing things that I feel like, why didn't I hear this before? Why didn't anybody say this to me before? And just the value of getting in for yourself. But then me, I'm like, well, I must be misinterpreting this. And you fast forward 20 years. I'm like, I was not misinterpreting it. God very much reveals, you know, things that are relevant to your situation, and we tend to, you know, see those so clearly when we're in the midst of it. So really cool that you're able to create this for, you know, for people to, to guide them through some of these stories. So, okay, that's leading into our next question. You said you didn't want to write grace, so what changed your mind? And how has God moved you through this process?

Well, that's a little bit of a story.

Let's start with that.

Let's start with that. So I didn't want to be the sexual brokenness lady. I, I was like, I don't want that to be what I'm known for or what I'm going around speaking about. And I, I kind of have to back up a little bit because I started speaking about eight years before I published the study. And at that time I was also painting furniture and flipping furniture, and I had this little business called Beauty and the Brokenness. And I remember one day I was at a store and we were in this little town where I lived, and I'm like, everybody's painting furniture here. And I, I heard this little voice, and I don't ever, I'm not one to say, like, God spoke to me audibly, but there was a very clear message that I heard that that went something along the lines of, but no one else can tell your story. And then I'd be listening to a podcast, reading a book, I'd have the radio on, and that phrase just kept coming out at me over and over, because that was the same time I was preparing to give my first talk at a women's event. And I kept arguing with God. Like, God, you know, I really want to tell my story. It's kind of messy and complicated because I have a story of sexual brokenness. I was abused as a child for six years, which led to promiscuity and really poor choices at a very, very young age. And, and that kind of shaped me, which then led to anger and self hatred and all the that happen when that's your story. And so I just felt like, I don't, let's stay away from my story. But God just kept pressing in on that. Well, I'm gonna fast forward. I started sharing my story, but not just mine, but stories of the women in scripture, like Tamar and Rahab and Bathsheba and the woman at the well. And what I discovered was over and over and over in scripture, I'm encountering these women that have a similar story to mine. Women that were used, abused, raped, betrayed. And I'm like, wow, wait a minute. Like, this is not a one off. This is like over and over. And they're not hidden in this little secret corner of the Bible. They're in the line of Jesus. They're the people that Jesus pursued and hung out with. And so as I kind of got to know these women and I got to do some speaking engagements, I realized just how much of a need there was, not just for myself, but for the women around us. You know, that this is so many women's story. And so as I was preparing to write my study, even though I knew that I still didn't want to write the study. And so I was writing this very generic Bible study on the women in the line of Jesus. And I wasn't really going into the depth of the sexual brokenness that all of them had experienced. And I had to do comps where you're kind of comparing your book to other books on the market. And I remember sitting at my computer, literally, I said out loud, everybody's already written books on the women in the line of Jesus. And I immediately heard that little voice of, but no one else can tell your story. And the Bible study. Let me just make this clear. The Bible study is not my story. It's not about me. And it's not even necessarily about the women in Scripture. It's about the heart of God. But I think through our stories, we see his heart toward the sexually broken, revealed. And so that's kind of where I kind of turned a corner. And it just became so clear, like, no, this is the study. This is the study I'm going to write. Because there's so many women out there who. This is their story. And they need to know that this is all over Scripture. And God is using these women in so many mighty ways, you know, to build his family, to build his kingdom. And so that's kind of what turned me around to go ahead and write.

The study that's so good and really inspiring. And you're right, so many women do those Bible studies that you were mentioning. And I had a similar experience when I started speaking for pure desire 10 years ago. I was a mess, a wreck. I was all over the place, worse than I am now. And I just remember being, like, paralyzed in fear and anxiety, just crippled. And like, I don't want to do this. I. But I kept taking the steps forward, knowing I was being called to it, but I really didn't want to do it. And, and I just remember, you know, Acts 4:13, and realizing that what made. What made some of the men so special is that they. They were just with Jesus, they didn't have any special training or, or education. And so that helped. And then exactly what you said of, it doesn't matter how eloquent of a speaker I am, because what's coming out of my mouth, especially 10 years ago, is stuff that a lot of people aren't talking to, talking about. And so the people on the receiving end of, whether it's your book or a speaking event, they're. They're soaking it up because People want to know that they're not alone in that. And. And I guess that's just my encouragement to our listeners, you know, that maybe feel that same nagging little prompting of take a step, take a risk. You know, that it is scary, and nobody wants to be identified as the sex addict or the abused child or the betrayed wife. But when you feel that little prompting, you kind of just don't know how good. How good the other side can be and how many people you can help through your story.

Yes, yes, I agree.

Yeah, I like how you said, Teresa, that question of, am I going to be known for this? I don't want to be known for this. And I think a lot of people in any kind of sexual recovery, whether they're on the betrayal side or the struggle or addict side, there is still that desire for us. We want to, you know, press it down, not talk about it. And we can see in that we're still holding on to a reputation that I need to look a certain way or come across a certain way to be loved and valued and accepted. And I. I think a big part of our recovery is finding out that I'm loved for who I am, and I can be accepted by others for who I am. But if I tell my whole story, others can enter into theirs as well. It gives people permission to say, oh, we actually talk about this. We lean into that. And. And as you said, scripture doesn't hide from it. You know, I've. I've thought often about Psalm 51 is, you know, this great repentance psalm of David and him acknowledging his sin. And. And it struck me one time, the thought of who gave permission for that psalm to be in the. You know, at some point they took it to the choir in the temple and said, we're going to add this to our. The psalms that we sing. Well, David himself, as the king, had to have given permission for that, right? Like, he's the one that wrote it. And we have it because David said, no, I'm going to tell my story out loud. I'm going to let this really ugly chapter of my life be known. And. And we don't know really why he was motivated to do that, but I think it's tucked into the end of Psalm 51. He says, you know, that the Lord, then I'll declare your praises to others. I'll be able to tell people about what you've done in my life. And I. I think somewhere he saw that as well, that I could try to just hide, ignore all this, or I could let the story be told. And. And he chose to tell the story of really the worst part of his life. And yet the way that is spoken to so many of us, I think, is a model that we can learn a lot from as well.

Yes, yes. What you're saying about, you know, we want to have a certain reputation. It's interesting, I think, of the story of the woman caught in adultery. You know, she's brought to Jesus, and they're there to shame her. They're there putting her to shame. And yet what. Jesus completely turns the tables on them. And. And he kind of puts those people that were holding the rocks to shame and sets her free and. And gives her freedom from. From shame and from sin and in so many ways. And I think there is a freedom that comes. Like Ashley was saying, like, when you start telling your story, the shame loses its power. It just completely loses its grip over you. And you say, you know what? This is not about my story. It's about the power of God to rescue and redeem and restore. And now I can talk about it freely without that. Without that hesitation or without that fear of, well, what are people going to think? Or what are they going to know? It's just not about that anymore.

Yeah. So as you study these women's stories, what surprised you the most about God's character or the way he engages with the broken and hurting? You know, you said that this really is a study about God's heart. So what were you surprised to discover as you looked at these stories?

I think one of the things that surprised me as I dug into their stories was just how misrepresented so many of them have been in scripture. I think of Bathsheba. You know, we. I grew up hearing Bathsheba was this seductress on the roof, bathing naked, catching the eye of the king, you know, and. And they had an affair. And that is not what scripture says at all. And. And God's direction as he sends Nathan the prophet to David. You know, God basically says what David did was wicked. Nathan confronts David. He describes Bathsheba as a innocent lamb, you know, that was stolen. And I think I was so used to hearing man's interpretation of so many of the stories that when I. When I dug down and I saw, this is God's word, this is what he's saying. His compassion, his mercy, his pursuit of the people that this world has labeled or has, you know, denigrated or said. You're. You're this kind of person. You're that kind of person. God is just constantly pursuing, going after saying, I'm not finished writing your story. You know, this is just a piece of your story. It's not the whole thing. And I just, I think grace, God's grace is overwhelming in story after story after story. And his power, his power to redeem and restore and rescue those that this world would have just thrown away. Those, those are the things that really gripped me about God's heart.

Yeah. And I even like everything you're saying to just highlight God's heart. That actually helped me in the very early stages of dealing with the brokenness of my husband's betrayal. It was like this back and forth conflict with my brain of just remembering like God goes after those who are hurting and broken and struggle and struggling, but he also cares about the betrayed. And brain just felt like it was kind of teeter tottering, but it, but it helped me to, okay, I'm feeling this pain, this betrayal. That's not what God wants for me. And also he cares about my husband just as much and wants to see restoration and wants to see his shame fall off and him to walk in the identity that God gave him. And so reading those stories helps me, I guess, just like get back into that balanced perspective of being able to just see God's heart for all people.

Yes.

Well, it's that change in perspective that so many betrayed partners have to come to as part of their healing. Because much like the ways we've had women in scripture interpreted to us, I think many betrayed spouses feel like I'm to blame. If only I was different or better or had done whatever, this wouldn't have happened. And as they understand God's grace, for them and their story, to be able to see it from a different perspective of I was traumatized, I was abused, this was wrong, what was done was not my fault or about me. And maybe the, the culture or the church or people around me have implicated me in ways of like, well, how much sex are you having? And we know how harmful that message is that are just not true and not accurate. And maybe like these stories in scripture, we need to be willing to take a new perspective to see that there's God's grace for me in the hardship and pain of what happened. And when I see my story through that different lens, God's grace can take me into it in a way that helps me heal from something that really wasn't about me, but was more something that was done to me. And I, I just see that parallel between the betrayed spouse and so many of these stories in scripture.

Yes.

Yeah, I know we've touched on it a little bit, but can you talk about how scripture, especially through these women's lives, reveal the heart of God toward those who have experienced sexual brokenness or trauma?

Yeah, I think we. Those who have experienced sexual brokenness trauma, we tell ourselves stories. You know, we. We say, I don't. I don't belong. If only they knew. I have to stay silent. I have to be small. I have to be hidden. And I think God says the exact opposite. He says, I do know. Like, we're thinking, if only they knew. And God's like, I know. I know your story. I know what would happen. What has happened to you. We think, you know, I don't belong. And God says, oh, but you do. Look at the people I'm bringing into my family and look at my family tree. Look at the women I'm pursuing when I'm on the earth and developing relationships with. I think kind of like what you were saying, Nick, is that God is not afraid to talk about our stories. We, at least me, I'll speak for myself. I feel like I was told my whole life, be quiet. Nobody needs to know your story. Nobody needs to hear this. And so it was just like every time I even tried to open my mouth, there was a silencing. And I think God is kind of like, you know what? I'm a safe place, and I want you to tell your story, and I don't want this to be hidden in the dark. And God is so. He's so freeing. And, you know, we talked a little bit about the woman at the well, but Jesus comes and meets her, and whether or not she was a strong woman or a weak woman or she had experienced loss after loss after loss, she was a woman that had been so wounded and potentially betrayed. You know, women were not allowed to divorce men, so she had been divorced by five different guys or. Or she had lost them through death or whatever. But Jesus, like, puts a finger on the most broken place in her heart, and then he offers himself, and it's like he says, hey, let's talk about this. Let's open this up. Let's look at this wound that you have, and let's talk about how I can heal it. And I think so much of God bringing these things out of us is for our healing. Like, his desire is for us to healing and not to stay stuck in, you know, these wounds that we have, but to. To bring healing to us. And I think one of the ways he's. He does that is just by allowing us to find a safe place to share our story, whether that's with a friend or a counselor or a church member or somebody else. You know, he gives us these safe places where we can finally open our mouths and let the healing begin.

I think it's so significant that in that story in John 4, that is the first person that Jesus reveals himself to as being the Messiah.

Yes.

It's to a woman who's been broken and hurt and betrayed and is still stuck in the mess of all of that. And he says to her, really, before he's even told his disciples, as far as we know, he says to her, I am the Messiah that you've been waiting for. And I think that is very reflective of the heart of God for broken, hurting people that he. He comes to us, he reveals himself to us, he reveals his nature and character in a way that invites us into life transformation. Because she, you know, she goes back and is clearly a transformed person of, come and see the man who's told me about everything I've ever done. And. And we don't know her. Full witness to the town, but it was significant enough that the whole town comes out because they're, like, looking at her saying, okay, something's going on. And I think in the heart of that, what's going on is that she was seen and she was known and she was loved in the midst of all her pain. And it gave her a story to tell that was so impactful that pretty soon the whole town goes out and many of them believe simply because she's, like, experiencing that. That safe place that you talk about in a way she probably never had. And I think it goes back as well to what you're saying about the power of our stories, that when God meets us and becomes a safe place for us in our story and we feel safe enough to tell our story to others, that impacts them as well.

Yes. Yes. Oh, when. When I started speaking, there was a song that was really significant to me. It was a point of grace song. And they sing. I have not lived a life that boasts of anything and I don't take pride in what I bring But I'll build an altar with the rubble that you found me in and every stone will sing of what you can redeem and the chorus says heal the wound but leave the scar A reminder of how merciful you. And when I think about those moments of people in Scripture telling their stories or of us telling our stories out of a place of healing, those scars are just a Reflection of, like, what God has done. Like, look at the victory. Look at what he's brought me through to bring me to a place of healing that I can now share my story, which can give you hope, you know, that you can experience that healing as well.

Yeah. And I like how. I don't know if it's this question or last one. We said, you know, these are the stories I've heard man's interpretation. And when that was part of my experience of growing up in a church and I didn't. Didn't have like a family that went to church, I would ride the bus or whatever with my sister and go to just lots of churches. But hearing the purity talks about pure, unpure, right, wrong, holy, unholy, and totally disqualifying myself from God's best, because I was not all those things. And. And then later, you know, when I'd get in the word for myself and not just listen to sermons, realizing that, like you said, look at my family tree, look at the dysfunction, look at God telling Israel, I'm done with you. Go have your idol. Like all these things that I did not hear in church, that it's really sad. And I'm. And this is not like, you know, a slam on the church, but this is a. This is so much of our trauma when we don't like church people, when we don't say God's truth and what is what he's wanting for us, that's the best for us, along with his grace for us and along with his understanding and along how he. Along with that, he uses everybody. And sometimes the more broken, the better, because then, then we get to see his power work. And when we don't put those messages together, it just leaves us with so much shame because we can never, never be good enough. And that's a lot of our men and women who come. And I think that is part of their story. Yes.

So along those lines, Teresa, for someone who's listening, who maybe feels like their story is too messy, there's too much brokenness, they're too far gone. What hope do you offer them through this study? And what might they find in stories of scripture that would offer them hope?

I think they would find a sisterhood, specifically the women, you know, or a brotherhood, you know, whoever they are. And they're looking at the people of scripture, at least for me, I'll speak personally. Like, I found such a sisterhood in the women of scripture. And it was through getting to know them and their stories and realizing, like, oh, I'm I'm not too far gone. I'm not the only one. And then as. As I've gone through the study with women, there's this bond that occurs through us sharing our stories with one another. And there's so much hope and grace when you find those safe people and you get to share your stories together. I think there is. We see transformation. Like the woman at the well, like her story. This is a woman whose life is like, utterly transformed when she encounters Jesus. And then when we see that happening in our own lives and we see that happening in the lives of the people around us through their encounters with Jesus, it provides so much hope, it provides so much confidence that this might be where you're at right now, but you don't have to stay here. You know, you are, you are in God's sight, valued, and you are seen and you are loved and he's pursuing you. And what, what has been done to you or by you is not the defining word on your life. So I think, I think there's so much hope.

You talk about just that safe sisterhood and especially going through a group together and having that safety and, and we know this from our type of groups that we run, that there is powerful healing that happens in the brain, in the mind to help undo some of those tr. Those, those distorted truths, those false shame lies when we say them out loud. And so, I mean, that's. I would hope that people do pick up your book and go through and at least have coffee with a friend and talk about it, talk about what they're learning because it's good information to have, but it's better transformative information when we can verbalize it and share it out loud and really say those things that we felt about ourselves and got stuck in. Filter it through God's word and through today and through, you know, not being traumatized and limpic or whatever and, and putting it back in. And so I love that that's your approach and that's what you see because life is messy. And so to be able to show up and, and just put it all out on the table and say, this is, this is my mess and I want to see God do something good with the rebel is. Is just so beautiful.

Well, the, the challenge of, of shame and the messiness of our stories that it often keeps us alone. And I, I think the master plan of the enemy. I've, I've said this in a lot of our conferences that it's masterful that he has inflicted everyone with the same sickness and Then convinced them that their unique version of it makes them particularly bad, and they don't share it. So it's like we're all sitting in church together with. With cancer, and we have different versions of cancer, but no one wants to admit they have cancer because they think they're the only one. And yet, if they were honest, actually, nearly everyone around them would say, oh, me too. And yet when we're not able to share, when we're not able to bring that brokenness to others, we. We stay stuck in that shame and a mindset that really perpetuates the pain, perpetuates the trauma, rather than creating an opportunity for healing. And. And I know some people have had experiences where they've tried to share with someone who really couldn't relate, and it maybe left a. A reinforcing message. Message that said, see, I can't tell anybody because I tried to tell a friend. And they didn't relate. They didn't understand. They just told me, don't do that. Or, you know, they gave me bad advice. And so we stop. And yet there are places like a pure desire group. There are. There are many people out there that. That could hear your story and go, I can totally relate to that. And we're looking to create those kind of safe places in churches around the country and around the world, but we know that's a work in progress. So for you, if as a listener, you're feeling like. But who can relate to me, I think finding a group that is set up for that is so key because there are many, many people that can relate. And when we're able to find that safe place to relate our story to others, it is a huge part of our transformation.

Yes. I love what you're saying about the. The plan of the enemy. You know, going back to Genesis 3, you see the immediate result of the fall is shame and hiding. And that. That's what we're still doing. We're ashamed, and so we're hiding and we're all pretending and we're all, you know, don't want to be face to face with God or with one another. And yet that's the very thing that leads to healing and freedom.

Yeah. So just like, if there's just two things. Get out of your space, get out of your house, whether it's virtual or in person, and break down that shame and then worry about the rest of the steps after that. But I think the fear of feeling exposed or rejected keeps us stuck. Just. Yeah, just pass that one step right away. Okay, so Tell us what it means to steward your story. Well, especially for the person who is in the middle of their journey.

Well, I think nobody wants this to be part of their story, but for so many of us, it is. And so I think we need to know where we are on our journey. We need to know whether we're speaking out of an open bleeding wound or whether we're speaking from a place of healing where there's a scar. And I think it's important to experience a measure of healing before. Before you get up and kind of share your story publicly, maybe. But wherever you are, there is a next step. And Ashley, I love what you were just saying. Like, maybe your first step, depending on where you are in your story, is simply finding that safe place and opening your mouth.

And even.

Maybe even before that. And I would say that this is. This is even. Maybe a very, very first step, is just naming and speaking the. The thing out loud. Like, I was abused. I was raped. I was betrayed. Like, some. Some of us haven't even said those words out loud in. By ourselves because they're too scary. But, like, letting yourself tell the truth about your story and then maybe even lamenting and grieving and mourning and crying out to God and saying, why did. Why did you let this happen? Whatever it is that you need to do to start that process. But I think when you've experienced a measure of healing, to be able to come alongside someone who is. Who is still bleeding, who's still got a gaping wound and say, look, look, God has healed me and he can heal you too. And. And not that none of us ever get to the place of, like, oh, perfect, you know, I've got the bow on top. It's all wrapped up. We're in the broken world until we get to heaven. But we can be further down the road from somebody else and bring them so much hope by just saying, you know what? You don't have to stay stuck where you are. And I think part of stewarding our story well is just being honest with ourselves and with other people and being willing. Like, if God is press you to share with somebody, saying, yes, even though I'm uncomfortable, even though I didn't want this to be my story, it is. And so now it's a responsibility that I have to steward that part of my story. And I think God. God will walk with us. He's not just throwing you out there, like, hey, go tell your story. He's. He's like, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm holding you while you tell your story.

What you just said about grief and loss is so, so important because when we can name a loss and grieve, then we can accept it as part of our story and grow and move forward. Whereas I know for. For me as a child, and I think many listeners might see some connection to this, I was taught that grief was weakness or to grieve was like a sign of something being wrong. And so when things happen to me, there was almost a mindset of like, I'm okay. I'm going to be stronger. I'm going to, you know, just have a stiff upper lip and get through it. And kind of that Midwesterner, or maybe it's my Scandinavian heritage of like, let's. We'll just get through it and don't think about the losses. But in not thinking about them or grieving them, I think the truth is that those things continue to impact me in much deeper ways than I was able to realize. And it wasn't until our recovery journey for my wife and I that some of those things I could recognize as losses and say I didn't. In these situations, I didn't get the care or support I needed because I live in a fallen world, and people aren't always able to perfectly meet our needs. And I remember asking Dr. Ted Roberts once, I said, you know, what has the capacity to create trauma or brokenness in our lives? And he said, you know, anything that happens to us that's outside of what God intended in the Garden of Eden has the capacity. He wasn't saying it always does, but it has the capacity to create trauma because of the way we might interpret our sense of value, worth, or identity from something that happened to us. And if we can see those losses and be. Be able to grieve them, what we didn't get or what didn't happen in that moment that could have helped us, then we're able to move forward, I think, in ways that. That are really, really powerful.

I think a language that we haven't been taught even in the church is the language of lament. And that's something I've just been researching even in just the fat. The past couple years of learning, like God gave us lament as a gift, like, to be able to grieve and process and, you know, the word. The world has words like hold space for your pain or have somatic practices that, like, that is lament, like pounding your fists and tearing your hair and your clothes like it's in scripture. And yet most of us weren't taught that, and certainly it wasn't accepted or encouraged in any of our homes. And so. You're right, Nick. You know, we. We kind of just felt like, I got to deal with this. I got to be okay. I'm okay, you're okay, we're okay. Everybody's okay. Meanwhile, we're dying inside, and we have no expression. We have no way to get it out of our bodies. And so I think the sooner we can learn to lament and let ourselves express those things, the quicker our healing will come. But it.

It's.

To me, it's a new language.

Yeah, I think we're seeing it just a quick aside. You know, all the people that now have celebration of life ceremonies, and if. If you've done this, I'm not against you. I just. Just. I think it's kind of representative, what we're talking about, that we don't like to grieve. And I don't get invited to funerals anymore. They're all celebration. Let's celebrate their lives. Like, you know what? It's also okay to grieve. Like, let's have a funeral because we lost someone that we care about, and. And yet we somehow feel it's wrong to do that. We should celebrate their lives. Like, man, such a strange contradiction that we're in a society that I think, in some ways, doesn't know how to grieve well. And if we can see that, then maybe we can learn a little different practice in our own life.

Yes. Yeah. And I, you know, going back to, like, stewarding your story when you're in the middle. I'm in the middle of stuff right now. We're always in the middle. Like you said, Teresa, life is hard, and we are constantly in the river. We are constantly in the middle of dealing with things, and it is good to get some space. I learned that the hard way. Get some space between your healing and, you know, starting your healing and sharing your story. But I think my encouragement to people to keep that authenticity and women who've been betrayed or abused or you're just in some kind of other middle is to be real with where you're at and saying, like, we're going through something. My. My husband and I are going through something. I'm going through something personally. I'm working on some things that happened to me. I'm working through, you know, some hard things, like just to. To not say, like you said, I'm fine. We're fine. Everybody's fine. But at least, like, that little bitty baby Answer helps you feel genuine so that you don't have to carry the load of pretending that you get to walk into a space and say, it's okay, that I'm not okay. But not everybody has to know what I'm going through as well. And so to practice your answers almost and saying, okay, if I walk into this church fellowship or this family gathering and I'm feeling so broken, it's going to feel yucky to say I'm fine. But also, we don't want to spew on everybody. So what can I do to be truthful and still protect my story and what I'm dealing with right now?

I wish. It's so good. Thank you for giving people words. That's so good. I remember when I first went from zero to five kids, and people used to be like, oh, how are you? My standard answer for a couple years was like, I'm surviving. And I felt like that's literally all I was, just, like, surviving. And then there were some people where I was like, I need help. Like, I need help. I don't know what I'm doing. And I was so overwhelmed. But that's not always received, you know? But I love that you're telling people to. To practice their words and kind of have. Have an answer ready because you don't want to get caught off guard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Teresa, what role do grace and truth play together in healing and restoration, and how have you seen that balance make a difference in people's lives?

Well, I. I think, you know, we tend to lean heavily toward grace and light on truth or heavily toward truth and light on grace. It just. I think it's our nature to kind of polarize ourselves. And when we look at Jesus, he was the perfect embodiment of grace and truth. And just to kind of go back to the story of the woman caught in adultery, you know, she was caught guilty. Maybe she was set up. I mean, it has been suggested that it was a setup, because where's the man?

Right?

They bring this woman, and no guy that was not according to the law. These people who are so concerned about the law, they're forgetting a main character in the story. Anyway, that's. That's a side note. But Jesus, when he kind of sets her free, he says, you know, where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you? And she says, no one, Lord. And he says, neither do I condemn you. And I think that is such a picture of grace. He had the right to condemn her. He had the right to have her stoned. And yet Grace said, no, no, we're not doing that. And. But then he said, go and leave your life of sin, which to me was such an. A word of truth that you don't have to stay stuck in this lifestyle. You can change. You can go from here and different. And so I think the grace and the truth that's embodied in Jesus, I think it's easy for us to lean toward one or the other. I'm more of a. Let me pour grace on you and not say the hard, difficult, truthful thing. But when we do that, we're. We're like missing half the gospel. Like the gospel is this perfect blend of grace and truth. And if we don't have both, we're. We're incompletely representing who God is because he is a God of grace and justice.

He.

He, you know, he wants us to be both soothed and comforted by his grace, and I think challenged and exhorted by his truth. I think it's just really difficult to maybe hold that balance. But the closer we get to Jesus, the more we get to see him and understand the character of God, hopefully the more we represent both that grace and the truth in our own lives.

It occurs to me how often pain can drive poor choices in our lives. You know, for the struggler or the addict, it's often in response to pain that we've learned to reach out to things like pornography or compulsive sexual behavior. And for many betrayed spouses, it's the pain they're dealing with has become almost a pathway into poor choices for them. In terms of, I've been hurt so bad and now I have permission maybe to hurt back or to do things that make me feel better. And in all those situations, we need God's grace for our pain and to know he meets us there. And we need the truth of that's. That's not an excuse then for me to make bad choices. That just because I got disrespected at work doesn't mean I have the right to reach out for pornography to meet that pain. Or just because he hurt me doesn't mean I get to go do something to hurt him back. I need both grace and truth in that moment to stay in a place where I don't allow my pain to spin me further and further into unhealthy behavior. And I. I think if we can see that in Christ, if we can see first and foremost his incredible love for us in the very middle of whatever pain we're feeling, and we can hear his truth, that as you said, Teresa, and go and sin no more. Don't multiply. Sin because of what's happened to you. Instead, trust me, trust my plan. Trust what I'm asking you to do. And I think when we hold those two things together, then we can walk with others towards real recovery and not just ways of masking or hiding that pain.

Yeah. And I, you know, I again, like, always emphasize the importance of having others around you that get this kind of information, that understand it, have walked it, lived it, like you said, maybe a few steps ahead of you on the journey because I definitely, I can distinctly remember certain struggles that I dragged my feet to get rid of because I would justify my new found knowledge of God being so gracious for me. And like, it's. God loves me just the way I am. He made me how I am. He created me. He knows I'm crazy. You know, he loves me just like I am and just. But still feeling that little gnawing of, I need to challenge you in this area. You need to trust me to let go of this. And, and I think we can go one way or another, whether it's shame and having the shame that we're, we're not good enough, we're not accepted, I'm not worthy of a Christian husband or the other way of. I don't really have to worry about those things because all things are fine for us to do. We just have to balance it, you know, and, and so just that, that realness of having friends and mentors who are like, let's pause there and let's unpack that. And how is that impact, how is that working for you? Is. Is so important because it, Grace and truth, it's, it's so much together. And I mean, sometimes it can sound cliche, but it is, is literally the heart of healing.

Yes.

Okay. Well, I have already poked around at your things and seen your beautiful website. So along with this last question, if there's one thing you hope every reader takes away from grace, what would it be? Also, if somebody is feeling like, hey, this sounds really good, how do they find you?

Okay, well, I, which, which do you want me to answer first?

The. What's the one thing you hope?

One thing. It was so hard for me to think of one thing, but I think what I would bring it all down to is that no matter who you are or what your story is, God is pursuing you, like, with a heart of steadfast love and compassion, with his grace and his truth. And like, no matter what you've done or what has been done to you. Those things don't define you. You are defined by what God says about you. And his heart is to redeem and restore and rescue from every broken thing that's ever happened in your life. And so I guess, I guess for me, if I, if I had to boil that down to one thing, is just that God's pursuing you with a heart of love. And, and that's kind of what I hope people walk away from grace with is just that sense of there's a, there's a space for me at this table that's really the truth of the matter. Like God has this beautiful table set and, and you're invited. So that's kind of my, my hope for what people will take from grace. I think I gave you guys a link. If people want to just check it out, they could get the introduction and first chapter for free through a link that I think you could put in the show. Notes, notes. And then if they want to just come to my website, which is teresawiting.com there's links there to the book and the podcast and different ways to get in touch with me. So I'd love to, you know, get in touch with some of the listeners.

Yeah, that's awesome. Teresa whiting.com we will put that in the show notes and that link as well. Would love to have you check out her book. And yeah, as we close this conversation, we're reminded that God sees values and redeems every story, especially ones marked by pain and misunderstanding through the lives of women like Bathsheba and the woman at the well. As we've talked about today, we see a God who draws near to the broken and meets them with both grace and truth. And so if you feel like your story is too messy or you're too far gone, let this be a reminder that God is not finished with you. And as you said so beautifully today, Teresa, he is pursuing you, that he wants to meet you in your story and walk with you towards a brave new future. So, Teresa, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. I loved having this conversation with you.

Thank you Nick and Ashley. I loved being on talking with you guys.

Thank you, Teresa.

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