432 - Why Pastors Don't Get Help With Their Addiction

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Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. Today is episode 432, and here joining me as my co host in this series is Mr. Rodney Wright. Rodney, welcome back to the podcast. It's good to see you again.

Yeah, thank you, Nick. It's great to be with you here today. Always enjoy doing podcasts.

Yeah, I commented at the beginning you're looking very professionally these days. You know, joining from like an actual podcast studio.

I am this. This podcast is brought to you in Cordelan from Coeur d', Alene, Idaho is where I'm at currently from Lake City Church. So Lake City Church, where I pastored for 17 years, is provide sponsoring in their podcast room to share today. So if you're in the north Idaho area, come join us at Lake City Church in Coeur d'. Alene.

Just a shout out for them good people there. Go check them out. Well, today we're continuing a series. This is episode two out of four that we have been doing on healthy churches and healthy pastors. And today we interviewed a good friend of ours, actually a board member at Pure Desire, but a significant, influential pastoral leader, Cal Richner, who talked a lot about why pastors get stuck and when they do, why they don't always reach out for help. And I think it was a really powerful conversation today.

Yeah, it was beautiful. And Cal has a lot of history with just not because of his age, but because of his age. He served local churches for a long time and he's seen a lot. And so I appreciated Cal saying, hey, we used to do it this way. I think we need to pivot now and move toward this direction. And he gave some real practical ways of helping us think about how to do that. So this would be a great podcast to give to your pastor to encourage if you're on board member or serve with a church, just encourage pastors to listen to this.

Yeah. And even if you're not a pastor, you know, maybe you're hearing this like, ah, maybe this one's not for me. I'll just skip it. Before you do, if you're a non pastor, non leader, I want you to think about that. The culture that exists in our churches won't be changed just because pastors hear this episode. But there really are some paradigms. There are many valuable things we talk about today that help us understand how might we approach change as a Leader. How can we support leaders that are going on their own journey? And what does it look like for the church to be a safe, healing community, particularly in this area of our sexuality? And I think whether we're pastor or a brand new attender of a church, or somewhere in between, we have a role to play. And I think you'll get a ton out of this conversation as it relates to creating healthy church environments. And if you're a pastor, what does it look like to move towards being healthy pastors and leaders?

Well said, Nick. Healing people are helping transforming churches. So if you're finding healing as an individual, you're a real gift to your congregation and your pastor.

Yeah. Amen. Well, a bit about our guest, Cal Richner before we jump in. Cal is the founding senior pastor of Northwoods Community Church in central central Illinois. No descriptions of who he is, where he's been, or what he's done would be complete without knowing more about him. In addition to his love for the local church, Cal has two other great passions. First and foremost, his wife and family, as well as. Secondly, in a close second, he said here a distant second, but I have a feeling it's a close second, is his love for the Green Bay packers, for whom he has been a guest chaplain. Cal is also the author of two books, Living at a Higher Level of Faith and God Can. So here now is our conversation with Pastor Cal Richner on why pastors don't get help. Cal Richner, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. It's good to see you.

Great to be here today.

We appreciate your heart for this topic and your heart for pastors and just the experience you've had of walking alongside leaders who have faced their issues and succeeded and flourished and those that have chosen not to. And on the, you know, leadership side, you've had to deal with some tough situations. And so I'm, I'm grateful that we can glean from you today. And I want to just jump into that. In your experience, why do pastors often hesitate to seek help when they're dealing with personal struggles? What, what are the key barriers that you've observed in their lives?

The great. It's a great question and I did a little just thinking through that. There was no question early on. The, the initial sense was a, I would say a deep sense of shame that as a pastor, we're aware when our lives aren't representing what we preach and that that feels like shame inside. And so we, we feel this sense that we're not, we're not as Together as we. We try to project. And. And then the question becomes, well, what will people think of me if they know the truth? And that's because, for better or worse, as a pastor, we're public figures, and we're also called to be examples to the flock. We know that's what we're to be. So I think there's always this sense that you got to keep up appearances, even when you're aware that maybe those appearances aren't the reality. So shame is one, I would say. Fear is another of what it might mean for my job, my reputation, my family, my ministry, if people know what I'm struggling with. So it's easier to struggle in private. I think pastors kind of have a. Our job's unique in the sense that you could probably be a CEO of any other company in the world, maybe struggle with porn or whatever, and it wouldn't necessarily mean you're going to lose your job if somebody knew about it. Pastors always fear that if. If I maybe have a. An issue that surfaces, it might mean my job. And. And then I added to that. There's a couple of big lies that keep pastors bound in their struggle. I think one is just maybe a misuse of. Of confession with the whole idea, well, I've confessed, so now I'm good. Never mind that I've got this pattern of failure that indicates all is not well beneath the surface. I've confessed it and I'm good with God. And so therefore, we. We get on to the next message, we get on to the next week. That's in the past. And I think, you know, because I've confessed it, it's all. It's all good. So. And that goes along with another. I would say it's a lie, but the deception that I've heard some pastors carry, that this weakness is just a part of my humanity. It's my cross to bear. And so I always say, in the absence of hope, when people don't know that a pure desire exists and that I can actually be healed from this thing that has had its hook into me in the absence of hope, that I can be free. We actually theologize our failure to make us feel better, and we'll talk a little bit more about that down the road. I've had pastors that quoted verses to me that were so out of context, but it was their attempt to feel, okay, yeah, that they're struggling. And this is just a part of my humanity and my brokenness that I'll carry to the grave.

Cal, I appreciate what you say about confession. And now I can move forward. And it really just becomes a part of that binge purge pattern. Right. And it continues to kind of happen. And, you know, I confess, therefore, quote, unquote, I'm accountable. I remember saying to people, listen, I have accountability. I just don't have integrity. I want integrity, not just accountability. And it was when my therapist helped me see, Rod, your confessions part of your binge purge. So how do we re. Change that so you can start integrating integrity into your sexuality or your trauma? I really appreciate you saying that. If you're a pastor, what Cal said and you've confessed and you quote, unquote, love the scripture, forgetting what's behind me. Hey, move into some deeper healing here, not just confession.

You guys gave me that. That terminology. I use it a lot. The binge purge. It's not. It's not supposed to be binge purge.

It's.

It's binge purge freedom.

Yeah.

And. And many people don't know that pattern. I. I could use the name. I won't. But a very successful large church pastor who just this past November, December, was accused of grooming some young men. And. And he has. Even this kind of stuff has been there in his life, but he came out and. And we build theologies around this thing. And this is what he said to the church, that, first of all, it's not true. And so if you were getting on here hoping that I'd make a confession, I'm not going to. But then he said this. Even if it was true, if I confess it to God, that it's his business and it's none of yours. That's all I got to do is be right with him. And that's a theology that keeps us trapped in our sin.

Yeah.

Because we think, you know, confession just makes it all okay. No confession. I. I would say yes, it brings forgiveness. It doesn't necessarily bring healing.

Yeah.

We're going to talk about James 5 says, get it out into the light with other people and then you can be healed. But we're okay telling God, you know, because he's not going to tell anybody. And it's almost. Our confession becomes an opportunity to keep living in the darkness. Yeah.

Yeah. Rather than in the light, like Rodney was saying. Part of that binge purge cycle. And Rodney and I are two pastors that kind of live that life of how do we reconcile what we're struggling with, what we've been called to do? And thankfully, God worked in our stories and our lives. Now get to be testimonies of how leaders can get help. But I think that's a reality. And I'm glad you named it, because as I share my story with many pastors, I will get feedback. You know, in my situation, as I acknowledge to my elder board, hey, I'm struggling with pornography. There's an opportunity through our district to get help at Pure Desire. My elder board was incredibly supportive. So much so to the point that they said, nick, we believe in you. We'd rather have you healed and leading us than have you go somewhere else. And we're going to pay for a big chunk of it as well. I mean, they personally, out of their pockets, paid for some of my counseling, showing their grace and support for me as the pastor. But as I share that story, others will say no. I'm confident if I told my elder board I was getting help through Pure Desire, I would be looking for a job the next day. And to me, it grieves my heart because I think we have created a no win situation for pastors where it's like, hey, you got the job and the title, and now that you're sitting in that chair, basically, you have to be perfect or you. The only sins you're permitted are the socially acceptable sins for a pastor to have, like, pride or jealousy. But if it is found out that your sexuality has not matured and no one has helped you be discipled in that area, we just get rid of you. And so in that tension, as I've said to people, the only job I was trained for was to be a pastor. And if I lost my job as a pastor for sexual addiction, what was left for me? And I think many pastors battle that reality of this is my livelihood, and I don't want to jeopardize my family and my livelihood, I guess I'll just battle alone. And so I do hope one of the outcomes of a podcast like this is not just for pastors to think about how could you address and face your healing? But for our churches, our church systems to ask the question, honestly, how do we become a place where we give pastors permission to be human? I'm not saying we should overlook sin or dismiss it or act like it's nothing. But I think we need to acknowledge that our pastors are real people that have their own formation in process as well, so that they're not hiding and waiting until it's too late. And so in that regard, Kel, and it's probably obvious to many of our listeners, but I think it'd be Helpful to hear you kind of talk about it. What do you think are the dangers for both the leader and the church when the leader's personal struggles go unaddressed?

Yeah. I put here that the longer and greater the degree of deception and entrapment, the greater the fallout for both the leader and the church. We have only to think of some of the great ministries, and it grieves me. I've known these leaders. I've walked with these leaders. I had the privilege of walking with Bill Hybels, Willow Creek. He was a great mentor to me and. And Robert Morris at Gateway and other ministries with large followings. The fact that some of this stuff was there and not dealt with has just crippled those ministries and brought reproach.

Absolutely.

On the name of Christ. And so I. I say, like it or not, the distrust grows even towards those who are walking in health and wholeness when we have these kind of failures. There's just this unspoken assumption, I think, from the world who's looking for a place to accuse the church that. See, they're all hiding something. And every time a leader falls, that's kind of the. The message. See, I knew it was true. There's just nobody out there. That's really. That's really the. The real deal. I said, maybe the greater danger is that a leader who can't admit to his struggles and be transparent about his path to. He has nothing to offer those in his congregation with similar struggles. It's like we all start to feel hopeless when nobody's talking about the issues that we should be talking about. And. And. And we sit there and feel like the gospel's not really working for me. And I guess this is just the best we can hope for. And so I go, man, Nick, when I hear your story, I think, gosh. And you probably know. But I go, do you have any idea how much your story offered hope to your congregation?

Yeah.

Because of how many people are sitting out there and saying, oh, my gosh, somebody finally.

Right.

Is offering me hope. Yeah.

Started the Me Too movement in his local congregation. Right. Somebody could say, me, too, Pastor. I want help as well.

That's so good.

Yeah.

So think about how much we just keep people mired in their hopelessness. We don't deal with our own stuff.

Yeah. You know, Cal, the best definition of leadership I've ever heard just means go first.

Go first.

And I just would just say to the pastor who's there that's listening, or this got sent to you, like, it's one of the best gifts you can give your congregation. Absolutely. Is when you realize at whatever area of your life you need help, go seek the help and, and, and get help. And it's unfortunate that many pastors haven't had just good training about healthy sexual development. There's a lot of shame unfortunately, around sexuality and human sexual development that as Nick said earlier, we've never really matured or been discipled in this area because we don't have a healthy framework to even begin to talk about it, you know.

Absolutely.

And so that's, that's a great perspective.

When I think of the dangers for the church, what comes to mind for me too is that we really limit, I think, the capacity for spiritual development in our church because if we're not being formed in our sexuality, if we're not allowing God's grace to bring us maturity and wisdom and freedom and then we're probably not preaching on it, we're probably not implementing healthy sexuality into our church. And it's kind of for me like that illustration of a barrel that people say how big of a barrel you have all depends on the height of your shortest side. And so if one piece of the barrel only goes up 2 inches, it doesn't matter if the rest of the barrel is a three foot tall barrel. You only have a two inch barrel. Because as soon as water hits that level, it's going to start to spill out. And I think for many believers in churches, because their sexuality is totally unaddressed, we remain really immature there and our growth is really limited by that leaking point of our faith. And so when, when we're willing to face our issues, when we're willing to lean into what we need to lean into, and we become more holistic in our teaching and our discipleship approach as a church. I think then as you said, Rodney, we give everybody that gift of saying we're going to be holistic in our spirituality. We're going to believe God is in charge of everything and we bring our whole lives to him, not just these pieces over here that are socially acceptable to talk about. So if you want to see discipleship thrive in your church, I think this is an area that we've really got to be willing to tackle.

And I think you guys, us guys, I'm part of pure desire. I think that we're creating the tools and the conversation that is helping awaken some churches to this. I think as a 26 year old in my first church, I was preaching through just doing some proverbs in the summertime and landed did, did a proverb Around, I would say, probably a sex talk that maybe that church had never heard. And I, I was, I was even pretty discreet in where I went with that message. But I, at the back door that day, you know, it's where you lined up and people come by. The pastor, good to see you. A good message today. I had a answer. Elderly former elder of the church say, young man, if you had preached that message a few years ago in this church, you wouldn't be the pastor. I said, oh, really? I said, why not? He said, doesn't the Bible say that you're not to even mention this in the church? And I knew where he was. Ephesians 5 says, Let not sexual immorality even be mentioned among you. I said, do you understand that saying that this should not be a part of our life? It's not saying, don't talk about it. Right. The likelihood is if we did more talking about it.

Yeah.

Maybe it'd be less a part of our life. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? But I'm going, if that have, that had been, I mean, think of a young pastor at that point saying, well, I guess this isn't a safe topic that we can even talk about.

And, Cal, to that point, we just did a study that the Barna came out last year in September. The porn phenomena, beyond the porn phenomena, where the baby boomer generation, they're least likely to want to talk about this than the millennials. The millennials are like, if our church isn't talking about this, they got their head in the sand. That's exactly so, you know, you really speak about that. Here's another question, Cal, I have for you. What practical steps can church leaderships take to proactively encourage pastors, you know, before they reach a breaking point? Right. How can a church leadership team be proactive?

Great questions, guys. I, I, I am thinking of this one thought. We have to know that help, healing and wholeness are available and possible. I, I didn't know that when I was growing up. The only message I got was just, stop it. Try harder. You know? But this is why it's critical that churches develop ministries like what PD offers these days. And once we've charted a path to wholeness and healing, then we've got to encourage people to self disclose. Now, here at Northwoods, we did this by designating one person on our staff. So again, thinking primarily in terms of pastors, we said to our staff, there is help and there's hope and there's healing. We're connected to pure desire. You're not going to have to fear for your job. Unless, of course, you've already engaged in some disqualifying behavior. That's not to say that there isn't some behavior that could disqualify you.

Correct.

Or at least we'd have to take you down for a while. But we're just saying you're struggling with pornography or whatever. We don't, we don't want that to be an ongoing struggle for you by yourself. So here's the person on our staff. This was somebody in our life help group that you can go to and disclose. They're going to help you get to Pure Desire. The rest of us aren't even going to know. This person is going to be your accountability. He's going to make sure you take the steps. And we're going to be glad that you got involved in the healing journey. You didn't have to go before the elders. You didn't have to worry that, you know. And we allowed that person who was a counselor on staff to be the one who could assess whether this needs to be discussed more broadly with an elder board or whatever. But in most cases, it was no, you take the steps. Now that we have outlined what that path is. On the other hand, if we've outlined the path and you don't take it and you continue to live in secrecy and then you're found out, the consequences for that are going to be a little more severe. So we're trying to create a safe place for you to self disclose and get to the help and the healing that you need. So I felt good about that because we could put them on the path to, to getting them to Pure Desire. And then because I'm at the forefront of, of advocating for and training churches in freedom and deliverance ministries as well, I just would say to some pastors, there are at times behind a lot of sexual addictions and entrapments, demonic footholds that need to be cleaned up and dealt with. And I'm going to hear again, most churches don't know how to address those issues either. So we've developed materials that lead to inner healing and freedom, just as Pure Desire has developed helpful materials that can aid the healing process. So we've, we've tried to put a, you know, a holistic approach to this as well. I have known people saying, I'm, I'm no longer acting out sexually, but they would still say they're dealing with the root of the issue. I would say, you know, porn can be the fruit of the Issue. Maybe let's say the root is a deep rooted self image issue. Maybe it's self hatred, self loathing that has come from somewhere and. Or maybe for a. A gal who hates herself but would say, I'm addicted to relationships because that's the only way I ever feel good about myself. It's like people want me. Well, she can finally come to a place where she's free of that behavior. But I want to see her free of that self hatred as well. That's a much deeper root that needs to be dealt with. Yeah. So I love how Charles Kraft talks about this. If you think of demons as like, rats, the rats are only there because of the garbage they're feeding on. So the bigger issue is the garbage. It will help them get the garbage out. That'll be easy to deal with, the rats. And so I see you guys as being critical to helping people know how to get the garbage out. And then. And then the rats are easier to deal with if there's something still there. Yeah, yeah.

I like how you're describing Cal, that it really is both. And it's not like, well, either either pursue spiritual freedom and deep healing or, you know, treat it like an addiction, look for recovery. It's like, no, it's. It's all of the above. It's both. And in both of what you said, I think the emphasis is saying to a pastor, and this is a lot of the work that I do with denominations and districts within denominations is saying, integrate this into your licensing and ordination process. Be willing to say to a young adult man or woman who's new in ministry, say to them, we care more about your personal health and thriving spiritually than we do your performance as a pastor. And we know that you're, you know, you're 23 or you're 33 or you're 40, you're new in ministry. You've got issues. Because we all are human beings. And so we would like to know where your issues are and partner with you to be a part of your healing and growth and not wait 20 years until that issue explodes onto the surface. And now it's irredeemable in that context, I think if more men and women coming out of seminary or starting in their first church had supervisors or elder boards who came alongside and said, hey, what's your thing? Is it porn? We've got a way to help you. Is it anger management? Is it food addiction? Is it, like, what is it that could disqualify you? Let's help you now and not Just assume you're good to go, not just put you in performance places on stage. And like you said at the beginning, keep up appearances like, no, we want you to be a real human being who is experiencing transformative work in your soul even as you lead us into that as a pastor as well.

And Cal, thank you for providing that for your staff there at Northwoods. If I would have been a young pastor and heard my lead pastor say that, I would have been like, are you kidding me? There's a pathway forward here. Thank you. You know, I remember when I was pastoring we would hire young guys. I remember a worship guy that joined our, our, our staff. And I said, listen, at that time, I just said, if, if you're join our staff and you're a male, I'm taking you through seven pillars. It was just part of the, I don't care how you sound when you sing, you're going to be in my 6am group. And, and this young kid at the time was like, okay. You know, he was, he was a little uncertain about me because I could be unorthodox in my approach sometimes to getting people attention. But he went through the group and ended up marrying my niece two years later. And my sister and brother in law are like, rod, thank you for investing in this young man. You know, because this younger generation, they're all exposed, they're all processing all this. And the more proactive we can be to just assume everybody needs help at some level, even if, even if this isn't your issue, you're going to know how to help somebody else who has this issue in the church.

I, I was just recently with Marcus Warner. I'll mention him a little later in his ministry, but his dad, Timothy Warner, was the president of the Bible college that I attended, Fort Wayne Bible College. And Dr. Tim later on worked with Neil Anderson. The whole freedom from bondage, this type of thing, knew all of this stuff and we never heard it as students. And I said to Marcus, why, why wasn't your dad talking about this stuff? I said, marcus, do you remember how I said, do you know how many of my, our colleagues would probably still be in ministry today if just as a part of their orientation as freshmen at the Bible College was getting cleaned up from this kind of stuff, having their own freedom experience. And Marcus says, my dad was in a place where he could talk about it because most of the of the other professors weren't on the same page and he didn't feel safe. He said a lot of stuff that happened in our Living room. And I saw it as a young kid, but he couldn't talk about it. I've just watched one after another after another after another of guys I went to Bible college with, played basketball with that fell off the wagon and it was all due to sexual sin later on down the road. Grieves me.

Yeah, yeah. So much, so much. And in that regard, Cal, let's talk about what's a success story that you've seen, because I know you've walked alongside a number of pastors in your own church as the senior pastor, but then also in your network of churches. Give us a story, obviously without names, if they don't, you know, but. But give us an outline of someone who did reach out for help and what did that journey look like and how did the church respond?

Yeah, and. And I don't know that his church ever knew about it. It might have been between churches, but this is one more recent. And it was a fellow that was on my staff years ago, was our first small groups pastor. And he confessed to me, you know, I guess a porn addiction at that point and not having a pure desire or whatever is more just. We'll enter into accountability, make sure that you're, you know, that you're doing what you can to fight this thing. And later on, a couple years later, he was let go. It became a. I felt like I had no choice due to some other circumstances, but it led to a separation in our relationship for years. And then he came back to town and took on a new church and we reignited our relationship. So much so that he had me there for the dedication ceremony when he took kind of this new church and we began to journey together again. I'm going to say maybe a decade ago, we were sitting at a restaurant here in town and I said, you don't have to answer this. We haven't talked about this for a long time, so if you don't feel comfortable, it's okay. I don't know that I've earned the right, but I said, I've just always wondered how you're doing with that struggle that we talked about way back when. And he said, no, it's totally okay that you ask. He said, it's. It's not any better. He said, it's actually worse than what it was then. And then he said this to me. I've just decided that this is the cross I have to bear. I've done everything I know to do. And I mean, listen to. He's. He's taken a scripture totally out of context. Know my. My. The cross I take up is the very thing that should slay this thing. And he's. He's taking that sin as the very thing that I need to carry as my cross. And at that point, I had come across Pure Desire. And I said, well, I want to offer you some hope. I said, I want to encourage you to. To make a call. And he later on took another church over in Indiana. I probably haven't had contact with him for two or three years now, but I remember him calling and saying, I have gotten in touch with Pure Desire. Thank you. It's the first time in my life that I've had hope. And he said, things are changing for me.

That brings such joy to me, just to know that there are competent resources and compassionate people that are here to help through pure desire. And it's beautiful. I get to lead groups for pastors and missionaries, and when they start to the process of letting their spouse know, their spouse is getting help, letting their church know. Just now, now they're not hiding. It's just, hey, here's what God's done in my life, you know, and thank God that you had some resources to point him to.

Well, I. I consider there was a. I won't use his name, but there was a missionary in our denomination that I really looked up to. I felt like he was one of the most godly men I had ever met. I had the privilege in 1984 of spending eight weeks. Susan and I were considering missions as a possibility for us. But even as a pastor, I wanted to have a heart for missions. And we spent the majority of that summer with him. They were getting ready to retire, and he no sooner came home wanting to mend some fences with his kids. Some of that felt like you've always put ministry ahead of us, you know, this type of thing. He had. He had some issues with the kids, but he no sooner came off the mission field and he got cancer. He died at the age of 66. But while he was struggling with the cancer, he called me to his bedside. I felt honored. He wanted me to pray with him. He knew I believed in healing prayer. He knew I believed in freedom. We talked about some of these things. But part of his calling me to his bedside was to confess to me something he never confessed to anybody. None of his own colleagues, none of the people that he had done ministry with. Cal, I've always struggled with pornography. He said it was on every corner and this and that. And I think he just felt like he needed to get that out before he died. And I just think this was one of the most godly men I knew, having to carry and like hide a struggle his entire life and felt like he just needed to kind of make confession before. Before he died. And I. I just devised that man. I. How much I wish pure desire had been there in the day. Yeah.

Yeah. What a. What a story of. That's what happens with shame in our lives is we just. We hide in that secrecy, believing if others knew I'd be disqualified. I. I think of a missionary that I had in one of my groups who said, nick, I had. I just decided that because of this issue and my inability to stop that I'm no longer saved, but that I could at least serve God and help a few people before I died.

Yeah.

And I just. Same way of feeling like here is a man who's dedicated his life to serving overseas in a really difficult area, who believes in his own heart. I've been disqualified from eternity because of my porn issue. And I just said to him, that is the voice of the enemy. That is not how the grace of God works. And thankfully he was in group getting help, but some of it was him addressing those lies of his value, worth and identity. And I think it just underscores how deeply pastors can carry this wound or shame. And whether we're another pastor like in your story, that can be that voice of encouragement. Or maybe we're, you know, we're just a guy or just a gal in church and we care about our pastor. Maybe it's taking them out to coffee and sharing a little bit of our story and to say, hey, if this is part of your story, I want you to know I love you enough that I would love to be a part of it. And it wouldn't change how I view you as my pastor and friend. I think conversations like that can be the life giving hope that a leader goes. You know what? If someone loves me that much to encourage me, maybe I'll reach out. So be looking for those opportunities.

And the effect of not doing that. Cal, kind of leads us to another question from your perspective, how does shame secrecy hurt not only the pastor, but it hurts the entire congregation, Right?

Yeah. Shame and secrecy are the enemy's strategy for keeping the church from experiencing the fullness of God's amazing healing and freedom. Those are the two words.

Yeah.

Our enemy doesn't mind the fact that people in the church are forgiven. He can't keep them from coming to Christ, but he is hell bent on keeping them from being effective. For Christ once they get there. So he doesn't care that forgiven. He rejoices in the fact they're not free. Because think about what it means if you're sitting there hearing that preaching week after week after week, and you know in your heart that you're forgiven, but you're not free. Now all of a sudden, I have this sense, gospel's not working for me. Why should I share my faith with other people when crying out loud, I'm so messed up? What would they think if they knew how? So it cuts evangelism, all of that type of thing. And so it's the absence of freedom. And then, of course, in that absence, the presence of secrecy and shame that caused many people in the body of Christ to absolutely feel like it's not working for me. I'm not going to tell people I think I'm saved. I think I'm going to heaven, but there must be something wrong with me because it's not working right. So again, I feel like this, I may be forgiven, but why is my life such a pathetic example of the. Of that fact? When I look at the stuff I'm hiding, I go, isn't it interesting that the apostle Paul, 2nd Corinthians 4:1:2, linked our Christian confidence? Since we have this ministry, by God's mercy, we do not lose heart. In other words, we take confidence, we take hope. And then he links that to. Directly to the fact that we have renounced secret and shameful ways. There's the very two words that we use. We have renounced secret and shameful ways. And I'm just saying, when a pastor has done that, your life breathes an air of authenticity when that is true of you, and people can detect it in your teaching as well. Paul goes on to say, by setting forth the truth plainly, we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. So people can detect freedom, true freedom, in your teaching, when that is true. And so I. I remember Jack Hayford in his book E Quake. It wasn't one of his most popular books, probably, but I've quoted him many times where he says, you cannot log off the Internet where you've just finished feeding your mind porn, and in the next moment, be something great for God. He said, it has nothing to do with your salvation. But I love these words. Jack had these great phrases. He said, but your soul has been neutralized by the residual condemnation in your heart. Right? The Bible says, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have confidence before God, we receive from him anything we ask because of that. But see, the other side of that is, if our hearts do condemn us, we have given the enemy a hook and a snare from which to accuse us. And thus we don't walk in the boldness and the confidence which God would want us otherwise to know.

Right?

So, yes, it hurts the pastor because he's given the enemy legal grounds to work against him, and he erode his confidence. But it robs the congregation as well, because the pastor, in his own secrecy and shame, instead of providing a story of redemption and healing, is keeping them trapped in hopelessness and despair. As we talked about earlier, I've done enough freedom ministry to know that when a person is finally free, then the shame of secrecy no longer has a place to lodge. And what was once a secret now becomes the story that is offering powerful hope to other people who are trapped in secrecy and shame. This is why I've declared war on shame in the church. I tell people all the time, the place of your deepest brokenness and despair can become the source of your greatest ministry if you'll let God heal you. But he can't heal what you conceal. And so that's why James 5, you know, talks about healing coming on the. The wings of our disclosing to other people, confessing our sins to other people. So I'm just kind of sick of seeing what could have been a story for God's glory being used as nothing but a. A tribute to shame and secrecy. Just. Just over a year ago, a pastor that I was probably closest to in our denomination, he retired a few years ago, and so I've had little contact with him recently. He was indicted on several counts of child sexual abuse. I. My jaw hit the ground. This guy pastured in our denomination for over 40 years, and he will now die in prison. He was my friend. He was my brother. He was my colleague in ministry. And it makes me sick to know that he was concealing this struggle all those years and for some reason allowed shame and secrecy to ruin his whole life and ministry. Wow. The very words that Paul used. We've renounced secret and shameful ways.

Yeah, and I'm so glad you quoted that scripture. I just got excited when you did, because to me, Cal, that's the heart of the gospel is to. To be seen, known, and loved. And it's a little bit of my, my, my. What's the word I'm looking for? My passion that I talk about all the time. I can't think of the idiom here, Nick, but anyway, you're in your wheelhouse. Yeah, wheelhouse. Like the gospel's not hell insurance. Say this prayer so God doesn't send you to hell. The gospel is about come sit at the table. And Jesus knows me. This I love. It's to be seen, known and loved. That's the healing of the gospel. And sometimes we've just said it's what you believe, it's not what you participate in. So just believe the right things rather than taste and see. Come and participate.

Yes.

In being seen, known and loved by the body of Christ. And so it saddens my heart about how that story you shared and the hurt and the shrapnel that was left to those individuals that were hurt by him. It just really saddens me that, you know, we don't lead out of authenticity and, you know, smoke what we're selling, as we used to say, you know, of what we really believe the gospel is. You know, we're just. We're just promoting a form of religion.

Yeah.

You know, when I think of how shame can get a foothold in the church, I think sometimes we communicate just as much shame in what we don't say as we do in what we do say.

Absolutely.

And I think about even my story as a teenager, my relationship with my dad, who is a wonderful man, a godly man, a man I love very much, and had some unredeemed parts of his story. And so as a teenager, we had had the sex talk when I was a boy, but he never asked, how are you managing addiction, Lust, pornography? And it was that lack of any conversation only deepened the sense of, if my dad knew the challenges I have, he would be so disappointed when the truth was he just wasn't speaking about it because he didn't feel equipped. He hadn't really faced his own issues. No one had taught him how. But in the silence, shame deepened in my life. And I think that's happening in our churches, that we're not preaching about it. We don't really feel equipped to. We don't know what to say, so we say nothing. Not realizing that in the silence of saying nothing, shame is deepening in people's hearts because, like, well, I never hear about it at church. If I do, it's only mentioned in a long list of sins. And if they knew what was really happening in my life, I wouldn't be in this church anymore. And so the shame and secrecy settles in. And I would just say that as an encouragement, it doesn't have to be that way, that the silence is where we're at to just start talking about biblical sexuality. I mean, there's great passages in there. And we could begin to talk about the beauty of God's design. We could understand how this world tries to tear that away from us. There's so many ways we could start to elevate the goodness of God's sexuality and that opportunity to say, and in our church, if sin has impacted this area of your life, we're here for you. We want you to know this isn't a unique struggle. We're here for you.

Yeah. And talk about being relevant in a world that's run amok in this area.

Exactly. And, Cal and Nick, to the listeners that are listening, the more rigid your faith community is and their reluctance to deal with it, sometimes those are where dysfunction goes even deeper. So just be aware of, like, hey, if it's rigid and it's. It. They don't ever address these issues that, you know, just. Just be aware. There could be more under the surface.

You can almost assume, if you're not talking about it guys, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Right.

You're just creating a culture that's allowing it to fest.

Yeah. So, Cal, let's flip the script a little bit. What does a healthy church look like in your view, in this area, especially regarding how it would support a pastor and a leader? What would the ideal look like for you?

Yeah, I would say it demands appropriate transparency in the pulpit rather than making the pulpit a pedestal. I remember I always thought my pastor that I grew up under was amazing. And not that there was much disclosure, but I do recall a time where he did. He was met by a lady who said to him, don't you ever share your weaknesses from that pulpit. We need you to be, you know, the example Superman. Yeah. There you go. So I found in my own ministry that what attracted people was the fact that I didn't shy away from talking about my own struggles with the idea that this is what God is showing me, and here's how I'm learning to fight, and here's where I found strength and healing. And people say, holy cow, if I heard this once, I heard it a thousand times. Cal, thanks for helping me to know this. Okay. To be in my own struggle, and you're providing me with the help for how I can get healthy. I would say a healthy church also is where elders support the pastor and staff by providing safe places to share how they're doing, an expectation that we will be involved in ministries of healing. That's Why I was thrilled when our denomination found pure desire and our president was saying to the pastors, you know, we have discounts. This is a ministry that you can be a part of. Brought the ministry to Fort Wayne, Indiana, where pastors could be a part of it. So I think it's extremely helpful for the congregation to know that we're a part of this ministry and have made it available to our pastors as well. So pure desire, just by virtue of what you guys are providing, gave us the opportunity to talk about it as pastors and as a denomination and helping congregations to know what's available. Obviously, I, I talk about the development inner, of inner healing and freedom ministries that the staff are expected to take part in for their own healing journey. And I, I would, I would just say when I think of a healthy church with all of these ministries, I, I think our denomination too, has gotten healthier where we talk more about soul care. It certainly involves these kind of ministries, but we talk about a sabbatical that's expected every five to seven years, with congregations understanding that this needs to be part and parcel of, of the ministry they offer, that they're, they're pastors. I'm grateful that Bill Hybels used to talk about study break, and I didn't have to use my vacation time to say to my kids, hey, I'm sorry, but Dad's got to go take five hours away from our vacation today because I got sermon studies to do and this and that. So I had my vacation, but I had about four or five weeks out of the pulpit every year as well. That was just study break where I could be pouring into myself, praying, doing all my study planning, and taking in these kind of helpful seminars as I needed to. That could just be a part of my, my study break along the way. So ways to just stop the pace and make sure that we're staying healthy. Looking beneath the surface, when churches and elders set that up as an expectation, man, that's, that's as healthy as we get.

Yeah, it's kind of. Cal, what you're saying, I hear you saying, is like, what makes a healthy marriage is a healthy husband and a healthy wife. Right? So as the leaders get healthy, that begins to spill over in the church. And I've known you for seven plus years, Cal, and I just want to say personally, thank you for being a guy that's open to just your own, even just your own family of origin trauma. You're very transparent in some of the wounds and challenges and things that you've navigated. And I think that authenticity and maturity and guidance is so when done right, really creates a healthy environment where we focus on growth, not perfection. And it's an invitation to come and grow. And I think just growth is such a key in that regard. Yeah.

You know, I think one of the transformational questions in my healing journey was am I the pastor because I'm the most spiritual person in the room, or am I the pastor because I've been called, because God called me to it. And I realized that I had been operating under the assumption that I was the pastor because I was the most spiritual person in the room. Because if I wasn't, if I revealed anything that I wasn't that spiritual, then whoever was more spiritual than me should be the pastor. But God really showed me through scripture and conviction like, no, Nick, I've, I've called you to this and I've gifted you for it and I've called you in in awareness of your weaknesses and flaws. And if you'll allow me, I'm going to use your weaknesses and flaws as part of the call that I've put on your life, which actually then gave me freedom to be a flawed pastor and person. And I think that's my ideal for church is if we had this mindset that our pastors, they're called to be our pastor and I'm called to be a teacher and you're called to be an accountant and you're called to be a stay at home dad or a stay at home mom. And in all of our call that God's put on our lives, we are also flawed people that are doing deep transformational work to become more like Christ. And if we, and I'm not saying there should be no standard of behavior that pastors are held to or, or a minimum kind of level of character that should be in place before we hire someone. But I just think that mindset of saying, well, you're called to be our pastor, but that doesn't mean you've been perfected as the pastor. That doesn't mean you're the most spiritual person in the room. And if that was the atmosphere of pastors, then we could all be on this journey together within our call to become more like Christ.

Amen.

Let me get a follow up question here, but based on what you've seen, what are some of the most transformative resources or programs, you know, like those of pure desire? I know you mentioned Freedom Ministries, but that you would recommend to pastors in crisis? If I'm a pastor listening in crisis, what, what are some places you would point us to go?

Well, I would say when it comes to sexual integrity and wholeness, there's nothing other than PD that I would rather recommend to someone in crisis. I have known other ministries like this, but I'm a deep, deeply appreciative of our, our commitment because I'm on the board of Pure Desire. So I say our because I feel I'm a part of this. Our commitment to being biblically based, clinically informed. Those are words we use holistic in our approach. But I believe in, it's the church centered emphasis as well. So the small groups that are going on in churches, I think we would see our success. And Pure Desire is that every church has small groups going that are offering discipleship and healing in this particular area. Now, of course, as pastors are listening, I'm going to put myself out there. I'm no longer carrying the weight of the pastoral ministry. I call myself a free agent. So I would hope some of you would feel free to talk to me about how I can bring freedom ministries and deliverance ministry to your church as well. But beyond that, I say when I. When I say we need to deal with the root of issues rather just than the unwanted fruit of issues. I would recommend that people get in touch with Marcus Warner's Deeper Walk International. He was a Bible college friend and basketball teammate. His dad was the president of Fort Wayne Bible College when I was there. But Marcus is speaking the same language as Pure Desire with regard to brain science and all of this type of thing. But he is really committed to developing what I call a more holistic approach to discipleship in the church that goes beyond most of our traditional evangelical methods of discipleship. So Marcus would say, you know, when we grew up, it was believe right doctrine. That's all important. Do your best to change your behavior. So yeah, we would start working with Bible study and prayer and fasting and some of these things, trying to, you know, how do I allow the Lord to work on my heart and then get involved in church and serve? And he'd say that that was pretty well our model of maturity. Believe the right things, change as much as possible and get involved. He said most of that was a right brain emphasis that left the other part of the brain untouched. And so now he's developing materials that deal with our, our freedom from our past wounds and hurts. Promise.

Yeah.

Getting established in our true identity, which is really a relational issue. We only know who we are when others speak that think of Jesus hearing from his own father. I think Jesus was pretty secure in his identity, but he still heard it two critical times in his ministry. This is my son, whom I love. With him, I'm well pleased who's speaking that into our life. You know, identity is formed in relationship with other people, you know, this type of thing. And then he does a lot too with breaking, demonic, bondage and this type of thing. But he is writing curriculum today to help churches deal with, with these kinds of issues that weren't touched in, you know, your more traditional discipleship materials. So I would just say, I, man, I, I would say Pure Desire needs to be at the forefront of part of our discipleship journey. You know, it just should be common for churches to take people through this kind of material. Yeah.

So I love it. I appreciate what you're sharing, Cal. And, and one of the things we've encouraged a lot of pastors, knowing that you may be in a situation where trying to take that first step with your elder board, with leaders above you, you may not feel that permission. You've maybe been invited into that kind of openness. And so it may be pursuing some healing that you could find in other places. And that would be far better than nothing at all. That would be far better than silence and inaction. And so we recommend pastors looking for a Christian CSAT around them. You can find CSATs listed all over the country and within 30 seconds of reading their bio, you can get a feel if this is a Christian CSAT or not. And I think that's really important. Or there are also some really solid kind of shorter term recovery programs. Like Boulder Recovery in Colorado does two week intensives for men. We highly recommend those Bethesda Workshops right here in Nashville, Tennessee. They do three and four day workshops for those who are struggling. And I, I know they are totally open to a pastor who comes and anonymously, confidentially participates in those workshops to kickstart their journey to healing. And so I've seen for many that might be an entry point to recovery. And then Pure Desire could be the online group resource that continues to be part of their long term recovery strategy.

Yeah, I almost hate to bring this up, but like, because Cal brought it up in an earlier conversation, I say this for the health and the well being of a congregation. If you're a pastor and you are abusing a minor or someone that's in a bad situation, or you're a pastor and you're using spiritual authority to physically or sexually abuse someone, connect with someone in your congregation, seek help immediately and realize that the best thing you can do is self disclose and get your help right away. This is not something that we condone in any way just because we're grace filled individuals.

Right.

You are damaging people and stop and move and take a step right away toward self disclosure and getting help. Yeah, yeah, that's the best thing you can do.

It's a good word, Rodney. We, we need churches and leaders that are humble examples of Christ likeness. And that only begins when we face the sin, the pain and the, the places we're stuck. But we want to be a part of healing and recovery. And so Cal, thank you so much for how you are championing that. You're encouraging people to be holistic in their recovery of deep spiritual healing and do the hard work of recovery and have community. So as we wrap up today, what are some final words of encouragement that you would like to leave with our listeners today?

Yeah, I, I just say don't trade the glory of your story for continued shame and secrecy. I know when you're stuck, you can't hardly imagine that there could be a better thing, but you just need, I want you to just own the fact that God created you and has given you a story for his glory. And there's nothing that promotes that glory more than when you get unstuck and you pursue your healing. And the very that's where I say again, the place of your deepest brokenness and despair can become the source of your greatest ministry if you'll let God heal you. But he can't. Here's the caveat. He can't heal what you conceal. So renounce the secret and shameful ways. Step into the light. Let him heal you. And yes, there may be some pain in that. But on the other side, you will look back with gratitude that you are now a vessel of freedom and healing for others. And that beats secrecy and shame any day of the week.

Hear, hear. Well said, Cal. Well said, my friend. Hey, I just want to say this to the listeners. You may not know it, but when Cal came aboard about seven years ago, maybe a little bit more. Cal, you have been such a gift to Nick Stumbo and his leadership to the board. Your wisdom, you've helped PD get where we are today. And I just want to say as a friend and as a former board member, thank you so much, Cal, for your investment in PD and pastors and just Nick, our executive director. And your wisdom has been a gift to this organization way more than a podcast or one act. But just thank you for your consistency over the years. It's a It's great to know you and Susan and, and I'll even cheer for the packers from time to time when I think of you.

You know, I'm not sure we can go that far, Rodney, but Rodney, Rodney.

I appreciate you, but Nick, I hope you know I'm your. I'm one of your biggest cheerleaders, so.

Absolutely. Yeah.

I hope you feel my support for you.

Appreciate it, Cal. And I truly hope and pray that your. Your way of viewing the church and leaders and healthy leaders would become the new paradigm for churches today. And that's our hope of this episode, that it's given you, our listener, a new vision for what the church can be. If you're a pastor that you've seen avenues to pursue health and freedom for yourself or for others that maybe need this message, and if you're not in ministry that may be in love, you'd share this episode with someone and say, hey, I thought you'd be encouraged by this and I want you to know I'm for you and I'm with you if this is an area that you need to address. So as we close today, we're reminded that pastors and leaders are not immune to struggle. They're not perfect. But they also shouldn't suffer in silence. Because when shame and secrecy take root, the damage extends far beyond the individual, impacting Marriages, ministries and the entire congregation. But we know and have seen that healing is possible when leaders are met with grace, accountability, and a plan of support. So if you're a pastor carrying hidden pain or someone who cares about the health of your church, take heart. You are not alone. There are safe places and proven resources and people ready to walk with you. And reaching out isn't weakness. It's the first step towards healing. Cal, it's been an awesome conversation. Thanks so much for joining us today.

Nick. It's a joy to be with you guys. God bless you.

Yes, thank you. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, Share it with somebody. Write us a review. All of these are ways that someone else might see and be impacted by this life changing content. And if you want more information on pure desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.