433 - Creating a Culture of Grace in the Church w/ Ken Krueger

Foreign.

Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed resource to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today you're listening to episode 433. And here joining me as my co host for this series is the Rodney Wright. Rodney, welcome back. Good to see you again.

Hello, Nick. It's great to be with you. I love this conversation. Healthy churches, healthy pastors, Healthy in my book is the new holy. And I'm thrilled that we're talking about health and how to help.

Yeah, we had a great conversation today. You know, I feel, Rodney, like when you're on, it's always a little bit of the game. Where in the world is Rodney? San Diego or Rodney Wright? Yes. I think today you're in Idaho, right?

Right.

I'm from Lake City Church. They have a little podcast room down here. And I am here in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho, today, broadcasting from there.

Awesome. And our guest today joined us from Utah. So we were in three different places, and through the magic world of zoom and recording. We're coming live to you today, or we're coming to you today through your headphones or your computer, however you're listening. And yeah, as Rodney is alluding to, this is part three of four in our series on healthy churches and healthy pastors. And today we talked to a pastor named Ken Krueger who really had, from what you'll hear, he had no designs of his own to like, launch a Pure desire ministry. But a man in his church came to him, said, I need help. And through all that, they found Pure Desire. And now their church is engaged. It's a significant part of their ministry. And I think his story of just some of the simple steps they took is going to be a big encouragement to our listeners today.

Yeah. And, and Nick, just a little bit of the backstory. We originally tried to record this last month, but it was kid. Pastor Ken is from Sandy, Utah, and it was during the Charlie Kirk incident that happened that day when we were scheduled just a few hours before. And he really talks about how, like a tragic situation, God's redeemed and kind of what's happening in that regard. But it's very fascinating just to hear how Pure desire is a part of helping them and just the context of what's happening in Utah at this moment and what they're seeing. So that's to our listeners, that's another little sound piece you might want to listen just for some of that piece as well.

Yeah.

God's at work in their church and community in a number of ways. And what, what would you say, Rodney? You know, before we jump in, some might be seeing this like, oh, healthy churches, healthy pastor. I'm not a pastor, I'm not a leader. Is this for me? What would you say to someone who's not a pastor? Why is this episode helpful or worth them listening to today?

Well, I think just as you hear leaders that care about these issues and have the courage to go first in vulnerability and really not afraid to address this elephant in the room that we say sometimes, hypothetically, like this is a huge cultural issue and churches that are silent. This is a great podcast to pass on to your pastor and just say, hey, there's churches that are leaning in this and have a not alone and pure desire is becoming a resource for them. Maybe we can consider this. We can help you get a hold of Pastor Ken and share his story personally.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's one way I would encourage, whether you're a pastor or not, want to be a part of a healthy community. And I say this sometimes, but make sure you hear it in the right context. If Jesus is leading you outside of your religious culture to get help, don't be afraid, because he will lead you to healthy people and healthy resources. So not every healthy, not every faith community is healthy. It's sad to say that, but there might be some truth there. So don't be afraid, or not even just healthy, they may not have the resource to know how to help you. But with pure desire and all the resources we're connected to, we can help you find healthy people to get help.

Yeah. And we want to be a part of helping churches become healthier and more grace based and implementing groups. But that happens in different ways and in different times. I think the heart of today's episode is that no matter what your role is in the church, we can all be a part of moving towards a more vulnerable, real way of doing life and faith that invites people to get help in any area of life and particularly in this very, very challenging part of our sexuality. So a great conversation today, right?

I'm smiling because I was a pastor Nick, that took a small step and then along came Ashley Jamison behind me and took a big step. Right. So God will bring people and resources if you're willing to take that step.

Yeah. Amen to that. Well, you're in for a great conversation. A little bit about Pastor Ken Krueger real quick. He became the lead Pastor of the Mountain Church in Sandy, Utah in 2018 after faithfully serving as their Senior Associate Pastor since 2005. He and his wife Christine are passionate and dedicated to serving the body of Christ and being used to facilitate true relationships within their church body. And we found out today that they are the parents of twins, a boy and a girl. You'll hear a bit about that. And he loves seeing lives forever changed through the love of Jesus. So here now is our conversation with Pastor Ken Krueger on creating a culture of grace in the church. Pastor Ken Krueger, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Good to have you on today.

Good to be here, gentlemen. Thank you so much.

We are really looking forward to this conversation because I think at a church level, so many of our listeners are asking the question, what can I do to help my church become a safe place, a grace filled place for people to find healing and freedom? And many churches, for any number of reasons are challenged to have that kind of a real grace based culture. So we're going to talk about that today. But before we jump in, you're new to the podcast, so just tell us a little bit about yourself, your church, and why you decided to be a part of today's conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been a, a church kid my entire life. My father is a minister. Matter of fact, he pastored the church that I now pastor for 32 years. By the time he retired, I was a staff member. Before that he retired and then I've been in the lead chair here for seven years now since that day. And yeah, I, I've been extremely benefited by and have seen tremendous results with Pure Desires ministry in our church. A number of years ago, a very trusted and loved brother of mine who actually now sits on my deacon team came to me with some struggles and I was walking through a, you know, accountability counseling with him. And at some point, I think it's even part of something that Pure Desire really acknowledges. He brought in his wife into the conversation, asked me to be a part of that meeting, and she was the one that found Pure Desire. She, she's a pretty heavy roller with this and she's just like, all right, we're going to give him the help he needs. And, and so she far surpassed the help that I had been giving her husband for a year and a half leading up to that and found you guys. Now that gentleman is the facilitator. He's the Pure Desire lead at our church and he has helped out scores of people with the program. He's done it many, many times over. Lives have been changed. Marriage is healed and saved. And I could not be a more ardent proponent of pure desire.

That's great, Ken. And I know you've had Ashley, Jameson and Heather and myself and my wife Tracy. You've had a number of our speaking team out to be in your congregation. I just want to say thank you for welcoming the conversation, moving your congregation to have a healthier view of just how we look at our human sexuality and steward it in healthy ways. And your proactivity has been really great just to see that you want to do something about it and create that culture. So our series is on healthy churches and healthy pastors. And so we're just excited to have you in this conversation today.

Awesome. Thank you so much. I'm sure we'll get into more of this in our conversation too. But one of the things I find flabbergasting that certain pastors or churches are hesitant or even unwilling to address this with the spiritual, emotional, relational devastation it leaves in its wake. I think to not address pornography and everything that pure desire addresses, you're really just spiritually shooting yourself in the foot. So, yeah, no, I'm happy to talk about it.

Pastor Kent, let me ask you this question. What first stirred in your heart the desire to create a culture of grace in your church where people could come out of the shadows and get help?

Boy, kind of like generally grace, or okay, I would say it as simply put as this. When I came to salvation and recognized how dependent on grace I am, reading scripture, understanding the nature of Jesus Christ, it's one of those things that, yeah, there are some beautiful, you know, mile markers of discipleship and they're, they're. I firmly believe there, there needs to be. If there has been salvation, there's evidence of salvation, meaning you're moving forward into Christ likeness, holiness. But man, to, to ever extricate grace from that, that journey, especially when you're beginning that journey, is. Is foolharded that we, we are all sinners saved by grace. And to. I've been, I've gotten in trouble before for being a. From the pulpit. I'm never going to gravitate away from that because I think that's one of those things that gives our testimony some real ump and power. If we can display and model grace correctly applied man, more and more people run to the cross. So yeah, we, we strive for correct discipleship and progression and growth, rather is better way of saying that. But there's got to be abundant grace at every, every turn.

With this whole journey, I was going to say, I remember in my journey as a young pastor, one of the quotes or sayings that really impacted me was the idea that people who were nothing like Jesus liked Jesus and sinners were often found in his midst, in his presence. So that, you know, the holiest person to ever exist, Son of God, God in a human body walking this earth. Sinners and people very, very far from God were just inexplicably drawn to him. And that thought of if to some degree our church gathering or the people of Christ don't have such some element of that we're doing something wrong. And I think most of us do look at our churches. And I looked at my church at the time and felt like, boy, I don't know if the people who are nothing like us just starting there, let alone nothing like Jesus, the people who are nothing like us, I'm not sure they like being around us. I'm not sure they feel comfortable around us. And maybe that means we're doing something in a way that's not reflective of who Christ was and his heart for sinners. And just seeing that who he was was grace in a way that people flocked to him. And then there was an opportunity, as you said, for discipleship, for a progression of faith and growth. But if it doesn't start with this place where people who are really deep into their stuff feel like, you know, that's actually a place I could belong, until then, we're not going to ever have the chance to talk about growth or sanctification or discipleship or any of those big church words.

Right, right.

And Ken, just thanks for going first, starting the Me Too movement. Hey, sinner. Saved by grace. Right? So it's kind of like, it's kind of a no brainer. Like every minister is in need of God's grace. Redemptive. The Apostle Paul, every follower of Jesus. So thank you for your vulnerability. It's really our superpower in sharing in a way that leads other people to know, hey, you have this disease in your heart called sin too. And there's a great physician that wants to help us, like he's helping me. And so thank you for creating that culture that just says, you know, I've needed help too, and God's helped me. So that's really beautiful.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. Thank you.

So I think for all of us, if we're being honest, there's a part of us that wants to just, you know, look good, look nice, you know, turn to your neighbor and say, good Morning. I'm fine, you're fine, everyone's fine. And kind of to be in that church culture where we don't go to those honest, deep places. And so because of that, what challenges have you faced as a pastor in moving people towards a real vulnerable, real grace based kind of way of doing church versus just a performance based, we're all fine kind of way of doing things.

Challenges, boy, again, not to paint it with too broad of a brush, but I would say the challenge is just strictly pushing against that kind of religious culture that's inside of all of us. You know, that you, you hit the nail on the head there, Nick. We all do want to present this, you know, I've got it figured out. And especially if we, if we are influencers and leaders within a spiritual organization or a ministry, you know, sometimes we reflexively will feel and I can't, I can't let my bustedness show. I can't pretend to lead people where I haven't been, you know, and that can get of hand, that can get pretty unbalanced where next thing you know, man, hypocrisy is just knocking on the door of your performance there. And, and so my, my pushback, and I've kind of already alluded to that, has been to just always be as transparent as I possibly can. You know, I stood in front of our congregation recently and my wife and I have been married for 17 years and we adore each other and we're one of those couples that are, you know, we got our problems just like anybody, but divorce is nowhere near, you know, our mindset. We feel secure in our marriage and we've worked on that a lot. And this is the thing I admitted to my, my people we are currently going to counseling. There are certain things about our communication that we just keep going around the same mountain, you know, and, and so we just got this place of man, these, these little things that blow up into big things over the course of a few days and it keeps happening. You know, I'm, I'm not finding my way out of this and I'm going to need some help. And I think that that's been my weapon against that religious posturing is to just be really quick, to be as vulnerable and transparent as I can be as the father of this house. And, and I'll say it this way, not that we're perfect in this, but it really has created a culture of vulnerability that, that everybody's like, hey, if that guy up front can admit that he's going to counseling, like Every time I've said that, we've gone to counseling. I've gone to personal counseling in years past, and I've had people come to me and be like, you know, hey, I had one guy two years ago. When I mentioned that, he's like, well, Pastor Ken, you just forgive my language, because you just screwed me over, man. And I'm like, oh, sorry. What do you mean? He goes, my wife elbowed me in the sign because, pastor, can't you go to counseling? You're going to counseling.

You know, suddenly counselors all over your area were getting phone calls.

Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

Yeah. What you're saying is, like, it's okay to go get help. You know, it's that quote we talk about a lot. Healthy people seek help, and seeking help is never a sign of our weakness. It's a sign of our wisdom. We go get help. And thank you for leading that way. And I think just another thing, it's okay not to be okay. I'm not okay. And I want to go get some help for this. And I know you're in Sandy, Utah. I know last month there was the Charlie Kirk shooting, and the trauma of that that has hit your community where people are not okay because of this traumatic experience. And so trauma happens in our lives for a lot of us at different ages, and when it's not resolved or processed, it's stuffed. That's when it creates a lot of problems, we find. And so I know that you've been helping your congregation and those in your community just process and grieve and. And get help to work through some of these life's painful situations. So thank you for modeling that firsthand.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not apologetic, but I just realized I'm wearing my Charlie Kirk T shirt. I was. I wasn't thinking that about this interview when I went through the song this morning. But, yeah, we've. We've had some really good things come of that tragedy. Speaking to your point there, Ronnie, that there's a girl that came the Sunday after that happened, and she hadn't been in church her entire life growing up in this area, you know, predominantly lds, Mormon. And she goes, when I was a little kid, I had some of this going on, but I saw the footage of that happen, and I. I knew I needed some help. You know, she was basically describing some ptsd. You know, she was. She's suffering with. And I baptized her last Sunday, you know, and her whole thing getting in the door was just like, I. I need some help processing these this imagery, you know, so we're pushing her towards some more professional help that can help her and. And also being able to minister to her soul with the gospel in the meantime, too.

Yeah, one. And what I hear you saying, Ken, you know, and you share stories like that up front from your own life. You're saying, we've all got our stuff, and no matter who you are, you've got stuff that you need to deal with. And sometimes we feel like our version of the stuff is a little better than others. So we're like, well, I'm okay, but if we're honest, we've all got something. And I think one of the things we're trying to emphasize in the work we do is to say whether your stuff is related to sexuality, to things done to you, to things done by you. It's not a separate category of stuff that we have to avoid, ignore, or act like it doesn't exist. This is part of the human experience. Right? We're made as sexual beings in the image of God by a good, loving God. So all of us, in some way are disordered in our sexuality because we're in a fallen world. And if we can create that environment as you do, when you share stories of, like, hey, I'm a real person. I go for counseling. I've got my stuff. I have to deal with stuff to say, and we're all in that boat, I think then people start to feel that, okay, this is real. It's not just a few of us that need help. Like, this is all of us. And that can be a real game changer.

Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

Kid. Let me ask you this question. How have you seen pure desire groups or the ministry help you as a pastor create a healthier culture of just more authenticity in your church community, especially around the area of sexual struggle or sexual health. And just talking about it, how have you seen that lived out there in your faith community?

This. This is the easiest question in the world to answer there, Ronnie.

This is.

Well, they always give me the easy ones, so. Okay.

Okay. Well, you G1. So this is. Man. I can't tell you how valuable it's been for me to address something like sexuality, human sexuality, pornography, the difficulties that we all face in these arenas and have a tremendously tried and true and trusted resource in the walls of our church to point people to. Because I'm a man, I'm a pastor. I've gotten victory in certain areas. I've struggled in certain areas. And I mean, I can give you. I can Give you scripture, and I can talk about salvation and. And that's about where it stops with my expertise when it comes to this. But to have pure desire within the walls of the organization to say, here, here's the scriptural standard, here's the freedom that many of us walk in and the freedom that you want, and here are the tools to get there. That has been something that's been so just beneficial to us around here that I can point at the people in the congregation saying, gentlemen, if you got a problem, you're going to go talk to Jeff. Ladies, if you got a problem, you're going to go talk to Ann. You know, and they've got an ongoing course, discipleship tool for you in this and. And to have such confidence in that tool, man, it has been absolutely invaluable to us here.

I just got to hear Shanti Feldhun speak at a Christian Counselors association meeting, and she talked about the pressure that a lot of pastors and leaders feel that. That in every congregation you've got like a triangle of people with issues. And you might have those at the top of the triangle that have severe, you know, high level need. You've got the mid level and then kind of low level, like, I just need help or advice. And what she pointed out in this illustration, the other triangle at the top of it was the pastor. And she said, in so many churches, no matter what level of struggle someone's at, all the arrows go to the pastor or the leader. It's like, help me. Help me fix this. And I think we hear that from a lot of pastors and leaders who feel overwhelmed and overburdened and. And they're not an expert at everything. I mean, none of us can be an expert at everything. And so some areas, people come to us, we feel qualified, and other areas, maybe especially like, sexuality, we're like, I'm not sure what to do, but we're the one that everything comes to. And I think what you shared is just so much the heartbeat of pure desire that we want to be that trusted resource that we're not there to cast vision for you or preach or all that's what God's called and gifted you to do. But in your leading and preaching and vision casting, when people feel compelled of like, okay, I want to deal with this in my life for you to know that there's that handoff of like, oh, here's people in our church that have walked this road, that are using some really quality resources. They're not just making it up as they go along, you know, they're not just talking about life in general. Like, they're actually working through a process of healing and they can help you. And, you know, you just expressed it, having those people in your church. You don't even know how to say how much that's meant to you. And I think there are so many leaders that are just missing that component of people are coming to them because they've created this environment where people want help. But if it's all up to them, it's overwhelming. And so in any way we can, whether you're listening and you're a leader or you're in a church, to create that imagery of, hey, this could really help a pastor, this could really help a leader have a lot less on their plate. And because they would have people they trust to say, man, this group in our church, this couple in our church, this man, this woman, this is the road they've walked. And I trust them in this area to really be a guide for you as well. And it's exciting to hear the way that you guys have really experienced that in your church.

Well, like I said, it's been invaluable. And then to me, even on a relational level with our director of Pure desire. His name is Jeff. Like I already mentioned, he and I meet every third Wednesday. We get together and just spend an hour talking and praying and talking about our lives, our ministry, our brotherhood, and the things that even he has given me as. I can't tell you how many times I've been preparing for a sermon or I've got a comment I'm going to make along these lines on a Sunday morning. And I'll go, hey, Jeff, will you give me some insight into this? You know, what am I missing here? What do I need to understand here? So it's not just even as a communal benefit that we have, but a personal benefit. Walking closely with this guy has been. I mean, it's something as silly as we couldn't have kids for a long time. So we became parents. I was 41 years old, and we had twins and a boy and a girl. And I had this just question out of nowhere. Forgive me if it's inappropriate. All you know, when. When to stop, like taking showers in front of your kids. You know, when. Does. When does that become inappropriate? And Jeff's in my house. I'm like, hey, Jeff, you got some insight into this man? He came with receipts. He's like, well, here's where. Here's the age. You got to really start watching this and you know, these things can become problematic later on in life if you're exposed after this and this age. And I'm like, so not only ministerially and communally, but individually, I'm like, ah, thanks. Pure desire help me understand how to not screw up my kids.

You know, Ken and Nick. I just doubled down on what you said, Ken, because when I was a pastor in Idaho and I, and I realized how excited I was to come back from a training of Dr. Ted and Diane, our founders, and really say I found competent, resource and compassionate people and this is going to help our congregation. It just relieved me of like I don't just have to just share my story and hope people all get into therapy. But there's a, there's a process now where we can get more people stepping toward healing. Some need more therapeutic work and that's resources there. But it's so great to start educating and understanding. And I couldn't, I couldn't agree any more, just about a competent resource to help churches.

So Ken, one of the areas that churches can struggle with is knowing how to talk about this, how to make it part of their rhythm. I mean, even we find in churches that have pure desire groups, it's still a really awkward conversation or just it doesn't come up. We jokingly say it's like the closet ministry of the church because no one knows it exists. So what are some of the practical ways or rhythms that you all have seen to help support both leaders and members in being aware of these groups and this help exists and, and pursuing that wholeness when they're ready?

I think practically speaking, we're very deliberate about highlighting ministries on a rotating basis. So I think if pastors can get into kind of that practice, you know, large ministry, small ministry, if a larger ministry, and that might be a bit more, a bit longer of a list. We're mid size, we're about 350 or so on any given weekend. But we highlight our, our ministries, we do monthly ministry minute video segments and so kind of keeping pure desire on that rotation is, is right then and there. And then if I just encourage pastors to push against the stigma or maybe even personal discomfort that you may have with questions about sexuality. And I know that different people are geared in different ways and I've already alluded to the fact, and this is not a back pat by any stretch, but I've always been the kind of guy that I'm just like, hey, listen, this is me, warts and all. These are our problems, Warts and all and that I've seen that serve me very well in just relatability with the congregation and also recreating itself in the congregation and be like, hey, I'm going to follow this example and I'm just going to be honest about my stuff. And yes, it can be really uncomfortable, but especially, you know, I'm getting older now. I'm 48 years old. So I'm not a young man, but I'm not an old man yet. As we're shifting and really trying to reach the younger generation, pastors need to realize how valuable authenticity is to the younger generation, that it was put at a premium with younger generation. To the extent that I would say this, I think certain ways of communicating that seem inauthentic to them just don't work for them anymore. Now, I'm not saying a complete redefinition of yourself, but pastors, please put yourself into the frame of mind of, I'm just gonna say whatever God promised me to say, and it may make me uncomfortable, but push against that and you'll see, you'll see the benefit of pushing against that. I know, like I said, certain personalities do that easier and some don't do it as easy at all. But all of us are benefited by just saying, you know what? This, this may be a little uncomfortable for me. And I'm not telling you to be crass or, you know, jokey about things that are big deals. I'm not. I'm not going there. But what I am saying is sexuality, pornography, all of these issues, guys, it's rampant in the church. And for consideration of discomfort, we steer clear of those things. It's destroying your church, it's destroying families in your church. You don't have the luxury of preaching only what makes you comfortable. You must get into the nitty gritty. And I know that's not a great practicality, just saying, just do it anyway. But in a way, Nick, I'm saying just do it anyway.

Well said, Ken. You know, we recently commissioned a study called beyond the Porn Phenomenon that came out last September, a year ago. And one of the studies was 74% of millennials. Right? My kids generation in their 30s say that if the church doesn't talk about pornography and sexual challenges, they have their head in the sand because this is a cultural issue that we're facing. And so like to be able to speak about it and let peer desire be a part of that. And this is a little shameless plug, I just want to say, because I know Nick and Ashley and a lot of Our team are speakers and coming to churches, bringing an outside testimony. Right? Owning our. Someone that gets up on stage and doesn't say, hey, I've got a pervert friend today. I'm pastor and I brought my pervert friend. Ken can share your. But somebody getting up saying, here's my story. I'm Rodney. I'm here to share about my journey. Or I'm Ashley, or I'm Nick, or I'm Bob, or I'm one of the team that can tell a cohesive narrative not just about rec, but about God's grace that guided us to people and resources that help bring healing in our lives. Story has a way, you know, Pastor, whatever of your story, you can own. It has a way of see, as Lewis says, getting past our watchful dragons and opening up hearts to the message of hope, healing, and freedom.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Amen.

I loved what you said, Ken, about making it a regular part of the rhythm of talking about your ministries. Because I think what that underscores for people sitting and hearing this happen is this is just a normal way that we're all growing and maturing in Christ. And as I mentioned earlier, I think sometimes churches unfortunately set this aside like a different thing. And like, hey, you can do our men's ministry and women's ministry, and we've got financial classes and relationship, but we never talk about healthy sexuality. That can leave people feeling like, well, if that's where I need help, there's something wrong with me that most people don't need. And I'm kind of leaving the discipleship path of my church to go get this quote, unquote, special help. When that's as we talk about, like, that's not the case. This is just one of the ways that we need to grow. So we disciple people in finances and relationships and all these other areas. And if we think of it as we need to disciple people in their sexuality, because in truth, most of us have had far less discipleship and teaching in our sexuality than most of those other areas. And we're in need. And so when a church can say, hey, this is just one of the ways that we're here to help each other grow in Christ. And then when someone, you know, confidentially, usually confidentially, decides, I need that group, they don't feel like they're leaving the body to do it. They're a part of the growth and discipleship of the church body. So I love that you're doing that. And we've said a lot, like, normalize the conversation. That doesn't mean we're normalizing the behavior. We're not calling it okay, and just saying, oh, it's no big deal. No, we're saying we might struggle in this area, and if so, it is normal to get help and be a part of one of our groups. And when that's into the church culture, I think long term, it makes a huge, huge difference. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And another question about story. You know, you mentioned Jeff and Ann, who are such champions, and I've met them. They're wonderful people. And, Ann, thank you for the special cough syrup you made me when I was there. When? One year. But story is story of transformations. There's nothing like a story, you know, of somebody saying, I was blind, but now I see I was addicted. I was the betrayed partner. You know, story is so powerful. Can you just share, maybe either personally or within the congregation, just the impact. You've seen story help other people you know of. Like, because you're. You're in that audience, you're afraid to raise your hand or admit. You know, I always say if your right hand offends you, cut it off. No one likes to get in line for that altar call, you know. But a story. If I can look at that stage and say I identify with her or him. Has there been a story in your congregation that maybe has just really been impactful in this arena?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I would say along these lines, first of all, I'm going to completely validate what you say about story. I love and what Nick was you said, the C.S. lewis quotes or Ronnie. I forget who said that, but I'm 100% there with you. Matter of fact, I've got a dog that I named Clive after C.S. lewis. So I love that whole. The idea that that story on narrative, man, that that open testimony is what it is. It opens up the. The. The mind and the spirit to. To be ministered to. If I had to pick one out, and I've kind of already alluded to it, I would say Jeff and Amber, that Jeff, who is now our Pure Desire ministry director here at the church, it has been for many years that, that he. Boy, I don't know how many years ago, 5, 7, 8, came to me and said, hey, Ken, would you, you know, start walking next to me in this journey, struggling with this Internet pornography is kind of wrecking me internally. It's wrecking my spirit. It's going to wreck my marriage, you know, and finally, I already said, a year or so after meeting with him, we looped in Amber, his wife and as difficult as that was, there was an unpleasant meeting, and so much life came out of that. All of a sudden, it wasn't this thing that he was hiding and talking to his pastor about. It was something that we are teammates in this accountability and prayer. And like I already said, she was the one that found the pure desire as a resource. And putting that story in front of our people have given so many other men and women the. The solace that they're not alone. And the courage to step out like they're seeing their brother and sister having done has unlocked and set them free. Couple after couple, man after man, looking at somebody on the stage and saying, oh, he has been exactly where I'm at. That means I can get to exactly where he is. And they've started the journey just from the testimony. Just from the testimony alone. So, yeah, we're story people around here. We hold these things up and say, I very often say this about this. If he can do it for me, then I promise you, he can do it for you. And that's. That's recreated itself over and over again.

Yeah, you know, Ken, that was very much our story for my wife and I. We did pure desires counseling journey for my own issues in 2010. And at the end of it, when my counselor was strongly encouraging, hey, you're ready to tell your church? And I'm like, I don't know if I want to open this door. That feels messy and awkward. And, you know, his challenge was, if you don't share your story, how many men in your church will think, well, Nick has it together. I can't talk about this. And they'll just stuff stuff down their issue deeper and continue to struggle. But if you're open and you're the pastor, how many people will walk through that door? And so, you know, with that encouragement, we shared our story. And that was exactly what happened, is people said, if you can be our pastor and you can own that part of your story, I know it's safe for me to do the same. And I could have, you know, I could have preached on pornography for 50 weeks in a row. I could have preached on grace about it for 50 weeks in a row. And I bet I wouldn't have had the response we did after one weekend of saying, this is my story, God is redeeming it, and we'd like to start this ministry in our church. And the number of people that just voluntarily over the next few weeks came forward saying, I need that help, too. Can you tell me more? It was incredible. But it started in people hearing the safety of someone else's story. And if I could ask you a follow up question to that. One of the other things Rodney mentioned, this report that we did with Barna called Beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And in it, people were asked, who do you feel comfortable going to if you struggle with pornography? And even among people who acknowledged they had some level of struggle with pornography, only 11% said they would feel comfortable going to their pastor. And so I'm curious. That feels to me like shockingly low. And it's like kind of a sad statement about pastors, I think, in our world, how they're perceived by a lot of people. What do you think it was for Jeff that made him feel safe to come to you? Or maybe I'm asking you to brag about yourself a little bit, like, what do you think about you or your church culture, how you lead? What made that a safe conversation for someone in the church to come to their pastor and say, I need help with this. Why did that conversation happen? And that might inform those who are thinking, man, I would never go to my pastor. What made that work for you and Jeff?

I think there's an element of risk there. There's also the spiritual warfare side of this, guys. The enemy is going to try to get you as scared as he possibly can to be conversant about this, to go to somebody, especially a spiritual authority. He's going to play that, that lie in your head, like, I'm going to be kicked out of his office, I'll get kicked out of the church, shamed. So there's an element that I would encourage anybody who is so desirous of the freedom that comes with confession and accountability, you got to put that aside. You got to just shove that away. To answer your question, though, Nick, the culture that we really try to build around here, at the risk of sounding like I'm beating the dead horse, is one of authenticity and mercy. You know, that I do think you take my example. I already used Jeff, that he probably wanted to talk to me about it 20 times before he actually did. And maybe hearing me say things like from the pulpit, I'm broken too. I'm a sinner too. And then, you know, maybe experiencing that, you know, in my office, for Jeff's case and anybody else's, you know, interaction with their pastor, unless you got a really bad pastor, here's what I'll tell you. Gentlemen or ladies, you're going to be met with love and grace. You're going to be met with a hug and Prayer, you're going to be met with. Man, I'm so sorry you're carrying this. I've carried it, too. I've certainly walked along other people that are carrying it. There is deliverance for you. There is success for you. There is victory for you. So I guess what I'm saying is be willing to push past that thing that will keep you bound. The enemy wants to keep you in the dark. The enemy wants to keep this a secret so that it can grow and it can overtake you. Eventually, if you get it into the light, it dies. And whereas not all pastors are, you know, great at this, and I've got my work to do in it as well. I would hope that any pastor worth their salt is going to recognize, hey, listen, this is a hurting soul. And even if it's in an arena that I'm uncomfortable with, what we're here for is to help. What we're here for is to preach truth and forgiveness and mercy and deliverance and grace. So maybe, maybe, I guess push past that is what I'm saying. Push past the shame, push past the fear, push past the lie. And hopefully, and I would say 98 of the time, you're going to be met with what Jeff was met with in my office. Like, brother, okay, let's do this together. Let's. Let's.

Yeah.

Every pastor should know how grace has been applied to their lives. I. I'm very cognizant of how grace has been applied to my life. Nothing that I've earned, nothing that I could say I orchestrated. It was me falling to my knees and saying, God have mercy on me, a sinner, and Jesus ran to me. Any pastor should know that if your pastor doesn't find a better church, but I would encourage you to find out if he does for sure before you do that, because he probably does.

And, yeah, and I think you're right. Most of them do. And I love in that example that there are the two sides of. There was Jeff's courage to be honest, and he had to, I'm sure, get over a hurdle for himself. But there was also your openness and your willingness to even speak that out of, like, hey, I'm. I know what it's like to be a sinner because I am one and I'm broke, like. And that invitation of realness. I think both were present in a way that I hope would become a norm in a lot more churches and congregations of. Yeah, it's always going to take courage to speak up about this topic, but if it's also on the other side being met with that invitation of we want to be real. Vulnerability is where God meets us. Then I think there's a greater likelihood that people will see that. I think my pastor is someone I can go to about this.

Yeah, yeah. I would just say if you're a pastor, listening to Ken and Nick on this podcast, but you really realize I'm not sure I've experienced God's grace in this area of my life. Pure Desire has groups for pastors and missionaries, and we're helping those men and women find safe places to really experience God's grace and then assess what's. What's the healthiest next step for me in my vocation. And you don't have to be alone in that because I think sometimes for the pastor sitting in that office right with those doors closed, you're supposed to have all the answers. And if you find yourself trapped as a pastor, there's hope for you and you can't give what you haven't received first. So reach out through PureDesire.org find help and let the grace of God touch your heart. I just want to say that and encourage maybe a pastor who's listening to this and feels like, well, that would be great, but I've never found a safe place for me.

Ken, what would you say for a pastor or leader or maybe even just a church member who really wants this kind of environment? They want a place of grace and vulnerability, to know that we're helping people even in this difficult area of sexuality, but they maybe feel a little stuck that their church is in kind of performance mode or it doesn't feel safe to not be okay. Everybody's kind of putting on their Sunday best and doing what they can to fool everyone that, oh, we're all good here, Nothing to see. If they feel kind of stuck in that culture, what's some advice you would give them that could help move them even just a step towards a more grace based, vulnerable culture within their church?

Great question, great question. I would answer the question with a cliche. Be the change you wish to see that I feel like that we're in a new season in just Christianity, Evangelicalism in the nation, maybe in the world where I think we're really ready to deal with some things that we haven't been ready to deal with maybe up until now. And I wonder if the person you're describing might be surprised at what a beautiful push in that direction they could be inside of their church. Even if you don't find yourself being a person of real influence or position. I wonder if you would in grace, because I think that sometimes when we want to see change, we can running like a bull in a china shop, and we need to change, and that's just never going to be received well. But in grace, just example, that sort of authenticity, you know, even in, in asking for the help that we need, that you need to say, hey, here's where I'm at. And, and I know that that aunt can't be the only one, you know, and there, there are resources and, and more than that, there's. There's the power of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to be had here. Can we have a conversation about why we're not seeing more of that in the organization? I wonder. I just wonder that if more and more people stood up and said, you know, I'm going to be that voice of vulnerability and authenticity that we keep talking about, how many others, maybe even those in leadership would say, me too, yes, and amen. Thank you. That's the direction we want to go. So don't, don't, don't continue to hide because you think that you're the only one. Like, seriously, you're not. You're absolutely not the only one. And maybe you might be the first voice to just say, can we start this conversation? Can. Can we go down this road? You know, I was already, I was ready to go there, but when Jeff came back to me with a pure desire, resource, I was like, I hadn't heard about you guys yet, you know, and as soon as he's like, hey, I've been looking at this stuff. What do you think? I'm like, yes, thank you. Let's go pull the trigger. Whatever we got to do. So you might be. You might be met with more of a real readiness than you think you'd be met with. So let your voice be heard.

Yeah, that's really good advice, Ken. I know there's a lot of shame around this subject matter. I'm grateful that Pure Desires leaned into a parent training course because that educates everybody just about how to have healthy conversations around sexuality, because we haven't known how to have healthy ones. We don't say nothing about what's unhealthy in our lives. And so just starting with lowering shame and moving people toward healthy resources, I think is another great way.

We, we talk a lot about in some of our events, Ken, that the picture of what happened in the first couple of chapters of Joshua when the priests who are carrying the altar, you know, were told to step into the river because God was going to part it. And. And we know the story that all of Israel got to walk across on dry land. It's this incredible miracle. And if, you know, if you're the fifth tribe of Israel, several hours into this progression, you're not even aware of what happened when that first priest saw a flooding river, and God said, step in. And it's like, are you sure, Lord? This feels really dangerous. But they stepped in and God did a miracle. And I think that's what you're saying, that whatever our position is, whether we're a pastor or someone within the church, if we feel God's nudge, saying, step in, be open, tell your story, be real. And that water might look dangerous, but God will meet us and lead us. And so often something happens that we pave the way that others get to start telling their story, finding help. And now it becomes easier. But someone up front had to go first, had to lead the way and give others that gift. And if you're listening to this podcast again, whether you're a pastor or someone within the church, just a concerned church member that wants to see change happen, you may be that person. And we're here to support you. We're here to give you tools. We're here that you don't just go in, you know, swinging blind, but that you're really communicating in a way that helps share your story authentically and yet not oversharing. Like, we can help with all that, but we can't take the step for you. Someone has to go. Someone has to make that move. And I think you've encouraged them so well, Ken, to say, if. If you'll take that step, you might be surprised, the soft landing that's there and how many people will be right behind you going, oh, thank goodness, me too. It's about time we talked about this.

Ken, the first Sunday I shared my story here in Idaho about 15 years ago to my congregation about the help I got in my 20s through a therapist. Ashley Jamison was sitting in the crowd. It was her first Sunday there. And she, I think John had broken ribs, her husband, because she's saying, you're going to get in that pure desire group that Rodney's talking about. And Ashley made sure he got in, even if somebody else had to get out. But, you know, and we didn't do it all perfectly. We. But we just took a step as to Nick, to what Nick said, we just took a step of going first, and that opened up a door for somebody else and somebody else, and Somebody else. And so thank you. What would be a final thought that you would share with your listeners here today on the podcast? Just one encouragement that you would say. Hey, if I can encourage you to do one thing or take one thing away, here's what I want you to hear today.

Okay. Oh, boy. And I got. I got 10 of them, just like any good preacher would. But I'll go the first that comes to mind and simplistic. Trust Jesus. Trust Jesus. He's a deliverer of captives. He is a forgiver of sinners. He is a catapulter of destinies. And he is not done with you, no matter where you are. If you found yourself, find yourself today bound in sexual sin or otherwise, secrecy, hypocrisy, darkness, do not give up on Jesus. Because no matter what the emotions the Enemy is throwing your way or telling you right now, he has not given up on you. The church has not given up on you. The Capital C Church. There are brothers and sisters that will jump into the trenches with you, that will fight alongside of you for your deliverance because we've experienced deliverance of our own. Do not give up on what God has put inside of you. You are not too far gone. And the people around you, no matter what you may think today, they don't believe you're too far gone either. So I know it's scary. I know it's scary to be vulnerable, but I'm going to really encourage you. Be vulnerable. You will find people who believe in you and much more so, believe in the God that can do in and through you the impossible. So speak up.

What comes to mind? For me, I think one of the number one messages the enemy tries to plant in people's thinking is that you, because of your sin or because of whatever you've done, you are disqualified. You can't help people. You can't be a part of this change. Leave that to the professionals or leave that to the holy people. And yet that is so often a lie. And I'm not saying everyone's qualified to preach or teach a class, but you're more ready than you realize to share with a friend, to tell your story, to encourage vulnerability, to offer hope. Look at that message in the face for what it is, a lie that says you're disqualified. Yeah, maybe you've had to do some hard work in your life, but God can still use you in such incredible ways. And, Ken, I think you've encouraged people in that, and I'm just so grateful for the ideas people might be having, even now of like, boy, what's a step that I could take? What's a way that no matter what role God has placed me in within my church, I could be a part of seeing a more gracious culture for people that are struggling, including myself. And I hope we hear many, many stories of people taking those very steps.

That's encouraging, you know, prayers for our listeners that they would allow the Holy Spirit to lead them to people and resources to find hope, healing and freedom for the betrayal, for the addiction, and know that there's better days ahead.

Well, this has been a great conversation, Ken. We so appreciate you coming on and just speaking to our listeners about your church and your journey and what's happening. And I think an encouragement that says, you know, you don't have to be the pastor to be the one helping lead a lot of change in your congregation. Just as you shared the story of Jeff and Amber. And it's probably not going to happen overnight. It might not be an instantaneous culture change, but I think when all of us lean into our story and vulnerability and truth and walking with one another, you know, as you said so well about just your willingness to walk with Jeff, culture changes. It impacts a whole church over time, and we want to see that happen. And we're here to help process that conversation for anyone that might need it. So, Ken, thanks so much for being a part of it and we just cheer you on in your church and what God is doing there and pray that, yeah, you continue to see a great move of his hand among your people.

Awesome. Thank you. Brothers, I can't tell you what an honor it is to partner with you, to pray all those prayers back on you guys seven, sevenfold. You're doing an incredible service to the people of the kingdom. Keep going. You got our support, you got our prayers, and you got our love. Thank you.

Well, we appreciate that, Ken, and to you, our listeners, if you are a fan of this content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, give us a thumbs up, a like a click, whatever it is, because honestly, that will help other people find this podcast and when they need hope, encouragement or direction and it might pop up on their feed because you help increase that visibility through your reviews. So I say it every time. But please, would you in some way make others aware that this resource exists. And if you want more information on pure desire, groups, resources or counseling, you can find us@puredesire.org Journey on, my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.