437 - Women's Voices: Recognizing Abuse in Marriage w/ Tabitha Westbrook

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 437, and here joining me as my co host for this series is Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back. Good to see you again.

Happy to be here. Especially to represent the women.

Yes. Well, that is what this month, this series is all about. We are on part three of four in a series on celebrating, elevating, hearing women's voices. I mean, we know women are involved in recovery, but often they don't get enough platform. And I think today's topic is one of those that needs a platform, and this is a voice that needs to be heard. And. And that is our guest, Tabitha Westbrook, as we talk about recognizing abuse in marriage.

Okay, let me tell you what I appreciate about this. Nick and I both sat through Tabitha's session at the PSAP summit through. Through itap. It's a lot of letters that's neither here nor there, but when Nick went through her session, he was saying, we got to get her on the podcast to talk about this. And so as a person, person who has been in abusive situations, abusive relationships, and a betrayed spouse, I appreciate that, you being the guy saying, hey, we need more people to hear about this. So I was really excited that you wanted to push this forward and just excited about what pure desire can offer that we are all for the addict, and we are all for the victims and survivors and betrayed spouses. And. And we know that it all walks through our doors, and so.

We need.

To highlight these different things. And this is a harder conversation. It is so full of goodness. I would encourage everybody, church helper leader, pastor, friend, betrayed spouse, addict, to listen, but just know that there. There could be some conversation or some part of the conversation that might stir up some feelings, especially if there is anything going on in your life or. Or previously that hasn't been addressed. And so, um, we say it during the episode, but take care of yourself. Pause. Listen with a friend at the. You know, to just make sure you feel supportive if. If any of it feels triggering.

Yeah, you're. You're right. It's a weighty conversation. It's heavy. But I think it's very, very important. Tabitha says it in the episode that research suggests one in three marriages is impacted by abuse. One in three. And we want to think this is, you know, a rare thing. It hardly ever happens. The truth is, as you'll hear about today. The ways in which abuse can happen and be expressed are much more common and if we are willing to face it, we can be equipped to be a helper and see this really change. So I'm excited about this episode. A bit More About Tabitha Tabitha Westbrook is a licensed therapist who helps people who have messy pasts live amazing, empowered lives today. She is the founder and CEO of the Journey and the Process, a private practice with offices in North Carolina and Texas, and is a nationally known expert and speaker on domestic abuse and coercive control, providing training to churches, therapists and agencies. She also helps train domestic abuse advocates through Called to Peace Ministries Faith Based Advocacy Training, as well as CO facilitating the G5 Men's Batterer Intervention Group. Tabitha is the author of Body and Soul Healed and Whole An Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Trauma, Abuse and Coercive Control. And I'm excited for you to hear this conversation today with Tabitha Westbrook on recognizing abuse in marriage. Tabitha Westbrook, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Good to have you on today.

Thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you guys.

You know, I am genuinely excited about this conversation and I know it's a tough one and a challenging one, but I feel like it is such an important one and that's why I'm excited. But before we really dive into our topic and the question specifically, specifically, I'd love to have you just share why you are so passionate about helping people recognize and address abuse in marriage.

So abuse, and I'm going to use a different word, coercive control is very sneaky and it isn't always super obvious. So people don't always realize there's a problem. They know, they feel bad, they know they're anxious, they know a lot of things and they think they're just failing at life and marriage when in reality it's something bigger. And so being a survivor myself and working with lots of survivors who have not known what was happening to them and also perpetrators who did not know what they were doing, it is really important for me because I really believe once you see once you know what it is, you can't unsee. And then that makes us responsible for, okay, what are we going to do about this? And in the body of Christ in particular, this should never occur.

Yeah, I think there's so much to be said for awareness. You know, having our eyes open and seeing what needs to be seen so that we can live in health, that we can live in the kind of, you know, loving Self giving relationships that God designed us for. But if we've inherited patterns, maybe from what we've seen around us, what we think culture has normalized or said is okay, or maybe we grew up in a dysfunctional kind of environment, but that's all we knew. We, we might be living in what we've defined as normal. And then there's those moments go, oh, this isn't healthy, this isn't right. This isn't good. Bringing that spotlight to it, while it can be challenging, can really be life changing.

Yeah, absolutely.

I appreciate this, Tabitha. I appreciate just even you starting with the subtleness that this can be. Because I remember once I started my healing journey and realizing what was what and getting language for what was going on and processing through my trauma, I, I said to my friends, I feel like I have a sixth sense, you know, like I, I can see things that were not there before and they are clear as day. And it was a little bit overwhelming to just see things for what they were. I had language for it. And now I, and now I'm glad and I try to teach my kids that language from the beginning of what is healthy and not healthy in a relationship. But when you're kind of blind to it or you've been under that coercive control for a while and then come out of it, or you realize you've been doing it to somebody else, it, it can be overwhelming at first.

Without question. I think it's hard to say, this is where I am, this is my relationship. Right. Betrayal trauma is brutal and coercive control is a form of betrayal trauma. It very much includes that. And I know the pure desire. Listeners are very aware of betrayal trauma as a thing. Maybe if they don't fully understand it yet because they're at the beginning of their journey, but they know it hurts. And coercive control is like betrayal trauma on steroids. So it includes betrayal trauma and it includes taking of your personhood. So a coercive controller systematically takes away the autonomy and personhood of their partner. So instead of seeing them as an image bearer of the living God, a partner, or, you know, if it's a female victim, you know, God would call her the ether con, right? The helper. But like warrior princess. Helper is what that word actually means, and it's also used for the Holy Spirit in the Bible. So you're taking that away. You're taking away the personhood and you're distilling them down to a couch that can talk and make sandwiches and potentially a blow up Doll in the bedroom, realistically. And that is how they're seen. They're seen as property. And so when you look at that, it's even deeper than the betrayal trauma that happens in addiction, which is brutal. It is awful. You know, I'm sure that there are listeners out there going, yes, it's so bad. It's so bad. I feel like I've had everything stolen from me and what I thought I married into, I didn't. And all of the things that come up for the betrayed partner. And it's that. Plus, now you aren't even a person.

Yeah, it's so, so well said. Okay, well, I know that our listeners and me are going to want you to go over some of the common signs of abuse, both obvious and subtle, that you are seeing in your work. And I know you know, whether obvious, subtle, covert, over, like, how do you describe that? And what are some of those signs?

Yeah. So I'm gonna set a difference between a bad day and a destructive relationship. So all relationships fall into kind of one of three categories. And these I'm taking from Leslie Vernick, the emotionally destructive marriage, because I think she languages it so well. One is disappointing, another is difficult. And then we have destructive, disappointing, and difficult. I want on the couch across from me in my office every day, all day. We can help those relationships. Right. That is the perfect place for couples counseling. Destructive is a whole other matter. And it's not just a one time. You have upset somebody. We can all be terrible on a given day. I can say something unkind. I could do something unkind, but it's what I do with the unkind and how often I do it and where I do the unkinds at. So coercive control is a pattern of behavior. It's a pattern of isolating, minimizing, denying, blaming, taking away again that personhood of the partner. So it's more than I had a bad day. So if I were to walk up to, let's say, you, Ashley, and step on your foot, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. You know, even if I did it on purpose, because I'm just feeling icky that day. And I'm like, what am I doing? What is wrong with me? Right? There's that conviction, there's guilt. Guilt is a beautiful emotion that is meant to move us to action, which is, Ashley, I am so sorry. I should never have stepped on your foot. And what I don't do, again, this is repentance, is. Is step on your foot. Right. And I certainly don't do it purposefully. Now, if I'm continually stepping on your foot and saying, oh, I'm so sorry, you know, Ashley, I just didn't see you. Just didn't see you. You know, and then I go step on Nick's foot, y' all are going to be like, I don't think you're nice, and I don't think that's a real sorry. Right. So we're looking now at a pattern of me saying, oh, but I didn't mean to. You know, I know I said that awful thing about you, but it was a joke. I'm just kidding. And then you're like, but where are you? Like, that didn't sound very kidding. And maybe it's like, you know, you just can't handle the finances. You know, you. You know, I know that you were a accounting major and were a CPA before we got married, but, you know, I just don't think you do numbers well. And so I'm going to take it over. You know, I'm the head of the household. I'm going to take that over, and I'm going to have. You know, you don't need to see it, sweetheart. You don't need to see it. And then the next thing you know, you're like, well, could I have a look at the finances?

No, you.

Here's the $50 for groceries. This is all you need. You know, in fact, I'm going to need to see the receipt when you get home to make sure you didn't go over 50. Why is it 51? You know, I'm just going to have to give you cash because I just can't trust you. I understand that. You said that milk went up. I mean, I don't know. Have you been to the grocery store lately? Everything's going up, but these are the things that we see. And it starts off as a wide funnel where the control is not as obvious, or it's like, hey, babe, I put you on my life360. I just want to make sure you get places safe.

Yeah.

And then you notice that they're like, hey, I noticed you were at Planet Fitness a long time. Hashtag, not sponsored by Planet Fitness, by the way. But they're.

They're great.

I love them as a van lifer, but, you know, you look at that and, like, well, you were there an extra 10 minutes. Were you talking to somebody? You know, I'm just gonna have to go with you. In fact, let me put in a home gym. I'm gonna buy you the worst treadmill mill known to mankind off of Amazon. And you can use that. And, and that's. You're noticing that funnel, right? I'm gonna go with you to the gym, in fact. Now you can't go to the gym. Right. We're isolating, we're controlling, we're getting angry, we're making accusations. And it starts off subtle because that to somebody might sound like love. Well, you want to make sure I'm safe and I'm getting home safe and let you know where I am if I get in a wreck. And look, if you have your partner's location, I am not saying that you're doing something terrible. It's what you're doing with the location that could be good or not so good. And we see it then escalate until you're like, I'm not allowed to leave the house. There are cameras around. And these are things I've heard from clients. There are cameras everywhere. I can't even pick up the phone. Electronic tracking means that I'm not going to go into because I don't like to help people crime. But electronic tracking means where they know where their partner is and all their text messages and all kinds of things I've seen and up to disabling vehicles so they can't leave the house without the spouse's permission. Like I've seen people take batteries out of vehicles so that their spouse cannot travel anywhere. They can't leave, they can't escape. And that is absolute wickedness. And that's way more than just being a protective spouse.

Yeah, I was feeling a little like, hot and triggered, but like in a I want to fight for my people kind of way. Because the first example you gave, and some of the others, actually some of the others too, but the first one you gave was so specific to a dear friend of mine that, that progression of, okay, well, you're a dollar over. Okay, well, just, just that like, ah, I am a prisoner in my own house, in marriage, and it's so real. And I think this kind of emphasizes why it's hard for people in these kind of relationships to, to try to explain what's going on. Because like you said, one isolated thing, you're like, like me, I would love if my husband controlled the finances and just told me what to spend and I didn't have to sit down with the books each month. And you know that it's not about that one behavior, it's the pattern. And it can be so hard. And there's all These, you know, courses and books of like, okay, if he's so great, why do I feel so bad? And this golden boy kind of Persona, and it's. And they feel trapped because the moment they try to start explaining it, they sound like a crazy person. Like, oh, yeah, because it's.

It's.

You can't unpack the whole pattern in history and all the nuances.

Yeah. I think the way I've seen it show up a lot in men's groups as I lead them is when I hear an attitude of. Of a guy, kind of. And I'm not saying this is only to guys. I think a woman could be in this category too. But, you know, my experiences with working with men in groups, when it's kind of coming across as, these are my rights, like, this is my right as the head of the home, that you must respect me. And if you don't, then it's my right to treat you a certain way or diminish you. It's. It's. Well, it's my right to sex. And therefore, in my rights, these are the things I can demand or expect of you. And as soon as that kind of language, they might not. They might not even be using the word rights, but it's that attitude of, like, I am owed or deserve these things, and if I don't get them now, that's your fault, not mine. That's an attitude just like, whoo, there's a lot of danger there. And I think it reveals some mindsets that really do lead to coercive control, to abusiveness in a relationship. And I think if we're aware of that, because all of us can have some of that attitude to some degree, right? Like, well, I deserve this, and if I don't get what I deserve, then I'm going to find a way to get it. That really, I kind of think reeks of selfishness, of. Of self centeredness, of sinfulness. And it's the very reason, I think, that when we hear Christ described, it says he gave up his rights. He didn't hold on to his rights as God, but he came and served and lived as one of us. And if we're seeking to honor God, to be Christlike in our life, a lot of that is surrendering our rights. And that doesn't mean becoming a doormat. That doesn't mean letting anyone do anything they want. But it means that my perspective becomes not about what I am owed, what I deserve, but instead of what can I give in honoring of Christ and others? And so I Think in relationships, that's one of the areas I see it coming up and that we really have to guard against.

I would agree completely. And also the weaponizing of scripture. Right. Using and proof texting. First of all, it's terrible hermeneutics, absolutely terrible. Second, it is really distorting the word of God. And so if you have a. And I'm going to use a female victim. And again like you said, it can be both ways. I tend to see it more this way, particularly in the church, because of how certain things are languaged and how scripture is misused. That if you have someone who sounds authoritative and says, well the Bible tells you that you have to submit to me, then they are distorting that. First of all, the Bible doesn't say you have to submit. It says submit one to another as you submit to Christ. That is mutual. It's mutuality first and foremost. Secondly, yes, it does say wives, submit to your husbands. And also it says all kinds of other things about how the husbands are to treat the wives like love your wife like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her, which is to death. Love your wives as you love your own body, all of those things. And Then they'll misquote First Corinthians 7 where it says, you know, your body belongs to me. Well actually it's an equalizer because in that day and age women didn't have rights. And Paul says, oh, your body also belongs to her. And that means she can say I don't want your body on my body. That's, that's valid statement. So when submission is not voluntary, it is not a choice. It is called subjugation. And that is not in the word of God at all. At all. And God tells us to stay away from selfish ambition. He tells us, you know, the first will be last. He demonstrates that when he washes the disciples feet and says the Gentiles Lord over each other, y' all are not going to do that. And so when we look at the heart and character of Jesus, the heart and character of the men and women in the Bible, that the Lord says be like this, then we are seeing something very different than what an abusive and destructive and coercively controlling relationship looks like.

So I think I want to frame this next question just a little differently because for many listeners, you know, we've been maybe programmed or taught to think of abuse as physical violence. Like well yeah, obviously if you hit someone that's wrong, don't do that. But anything non physical, like well is that really so Bad. And maybe even a listener's feeling like, well, I'm not the same. You know, I'm not that person. I don't hit my wife. But, yeah, I control the finances. I have to because I don't trust. You know, maybe they're triggered because they feel themselves doing the very things you're saying that might be abuse. So how would you encourage all of us to think about abuse and coercive control differently? That goes beyond just seeing it as physical violence.

Yeah. The heart is power and control, first of all. And the other thing is what we know about neuroscience, God is amazing when it says, you know, in the Psalms, we are fearfully and wonderfully made. He's not kidding. Like, if you just have basic biology or a little bit of human anatomy, which I feel like we were all at least a little subjected to in high school and college. Right. That we know how complex the human cell is. Like, how many parts are there? How many of us made Styrofoam cells? I don't know. Maybe I'm just old enough that that's part of my story. But I absolutely did carve all the parts into Styrofoam of cells when I was in high school.

The mighty mitochondria.

Exactly. We can't name anything else, but we all know that the mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Now that everyone's had a high school flashback, you know, sorry for that. We know. I'm not sorry at all. But what we know is that the brain is dumping neurochemicals into the body. So one thing, when people like, oh, it's just emotional abuse. Well, how do you think we feel emotions? Why do you think we have a gut feeling? Why does our pulse rate increase with anxiety and our palms get sweaty? Why do we get headaches when we're super stressed if it's not a physical response? And what I tell people, all abuse is physical abuse, whether you are thrown downstairs or whether you are coercively controlled in a way that doesn't include what we would call physical violence. Because unless you can take your brain out of your skull and stick it in a jar, it is a body part, and it is being harmed, and it is dumping chemicals into your body that are harming you. And we know that if you sit in those neurochemicals that are released in fight, flight, freeze for long periods of time, you get things like cardiac issues, autoimmune disorders. All of those, to me, though, they don't show up as fast as a fist. Are physical abuse So I think it's actually a really false argument that people make. Well, it's not that bad. Oh, really? You wait five years, wait 10 years.

Yeah.

Come talk to me about the women that have been married 30 years to somebody who's destructive.

That's powerful to think about. And with all we know now about complications medically from things like chronic stress and the amount of autoimmune disease issues, and there are significant long term body impacts of living in an unsafe situation. That's what you're describing. It's a spouse living in an unsafe environment. And their body will react to that in ways that have probably in some ways a more detrimental effect than if I was just slapped on my cheek, I'd feel pain, obviously that'd be horrible. And I'm not in any way minimizing that, but just suggesting, I think if some people could choose between I got slapped one day versus I have a lifelong chronic stress disease, most people say, well, give me the one time slap, I can deal with that. That chronic stress disease could take my life away. And we do minimize that in ways that I think are unfair and unsafe.

You know, I can't tell you how many survivors have said, I wish I would have just been hit. It would have been so much more clear.

That is literally just what I wrote. Like, how many women tell me, just hit me. Yeah, because the internal. It's kind of like how people go to, okay, stay with me here. You go to cutting or you go to drinking or something. Because the internal pain you're experiencing is so unbearable. You need to like feel something different, release it, take your mind off of it. And I remember feeling that way in my first marriage of just hit me like I cannot handle. I felt like I was going to die inside. It was so physical the way that my body and my heart felt that I would have have much rather been hit. It would have taken my brain to a different area and it would have given me permission, I'm quoting, to leave my marriage. And so, you know, we've already talked about you. You said all abuse is physical. I love the way that you unpack that in the brain. And I'm like, okay, everybody needs to listen to this episode. Everybody. And so with our next question, because it was, you know, that many believe that unless it's physical, it's not really abuse. You've already said why that's wrong, faulty thinking and why it's dangerous. So to kind of flip that question on its head, what would you say to the church? Because I remember going to the church or to helpers or family members. And I remember going to Christian family members and to the church and explaining what I was experiencing, trying to explain. I didn't have very much language for it at the time. I was 20 nothing. I was 20 nothing with two little twin boys. And. And I was told biblical grounds for divorce is only if it's physical abuse or a physical affair. Anything else is not on the table for a godly divorce. And so can you help us understand why that thinking is dangerous and also inaccurate?

Yeah. First, I want to just say, I am sorry that you have lived experience with it. Like, you know, the statistic is one in three relationships will have physical or domestic abuse or coercive control or some kind in them. I say if pastors want to stand on their stage and start counting off 1, like, 1, 2, 3. Right. Like by couples, you might have a whole different perspective. So I just want to acknowledge that it's terrible and I'm sorry that you felt that way. I really am. And it should not be that way.

No.

And as you know, Called to peace back in 2018, I believe it was, did a survey of survivors. Called to Peace Ministries is a domestic abuse ministry for the church. They do a lot of wonderful things. They're a ministry partner of my organization. And 72% of women went to their pastors, and only 4% would ever return because the church mishandled it so badly. They said things like, go have more sex. Which is definitely not the salt. Not. Does not solve the abuse problem, frankly. They said things like, you know, this is the way we kind of language it when we're teaching advocacy class. Stay, pray, obey, and lay are what they are told. Yeah. And that's rough. So pastors are saying, well, what did you do to make him mad? I had a client once who had been strangled, and I was talking with the counseling pastor at her church, you know, with permission. She had signed a release and said, you know, hey, this is really serious. Well, I asked her what she did to make him mad. And I'm like, I've been mad before. I don't think I've ever resorted to strangulation, honestly. And. And I want to say this particularly for this podcast, and I'm going to say something very directly. So I want to urge our listeners, if you have been in a relationship or are in a relations like this, and you're like, I'm feeling all kinds of sweaty and anxious and my body's tightening up, you are the only you that you have. You can always press pause and you can always come back. So I just want to say that because sometimes we start listening to things, especially survivors, and we. Like, I have to finish the whole thing. Well, not right now. Go take care of your body. So especially if you're. Yeah, because I'm going to say some real direct things right now. Strangulation is never okay. Strangulation is not choking. Choking is what happens when I eat a piece of chicken and it goes down the wrong hole. Strangulation is when somebody attempts to stop my breathing or inhibits my breathing, either through hands on my neck, a ligature on my body, putting their body against my body, burying my face in something, anything that someone can do that would inhibit my ability to breathe. And if you think that sexual strangulation is okay, let me tell you that you can die in less than five minutes, and it can take up to seven days. It can also cause traumatic brain injuries that are not immediately obvious, and it can cause stroke down the line. And so I just want to say, if your partner is saying, but this is what turns me on, I can tell you it is dangerous. And it also, if there, if there are other signs of coercive control in your relationship, might be a very convenient way to say, I can kill you if I want to. And I've seen that more times than I would like to admit. And so I just want to say that very directly. And for pastors, what you did to make him mad is irrelevant. Right. Like, again, maybe we need to work on conflict at some point. Not if there's destruction, but, you know, at least not till that's resolved. But that's not the right question. And if you question him and he says, well, I got a little mad and you don't ask, what does that mean? I have questions. I mean, I get a little mad again, I don't strangle people when that happens. And I also don't do destructive things like take bank accounts and restrict grocery budgets and make my family stand outside on a balcony so I can sleep, which I had a client have happen, like all the family, didn't matter what weather. And, you know, if you're not asking, what does it look like when you get mad? What words are you saying? Well, I might have said something unkind. What did you say that was unkind, exactly? Well, I don't want to say those words in front of you. Well, then you surely shouldn't have said them to her. Right. And those are the questions that pastors should ask. And if a pastor's going I did not learn this in seminary. First of all, I'm sad about that. Secondly, there are ways to get educated, and I encourage it highly so that you know what you're looking at. And oftentimes as well, survivors come in and they're a little dysregulated. They, first of all, think they're crazy, right? And they're like, I just know something's wrong. And so they might cry a lot. Or if they get in there with him, they might go off. And you're like, wow, man. Proverbs said something about a nagging woman, and there she is. Which is also not what that verse means. I just will have that statement as well. But maybe asking, what makes this make sense? Why is she so activated? Why is she saying these things in my office? Because it might be the first time she's like, someone else is here. Maybe they'll hear me, right? Not realizing that regulation would be a little helpful in that situation. But her amygdala is in charge and not the rest of her brain. So she's doing the best she can. Or she might cry a lot. I had somebody recently in a Facebook post comment on somebody crying, and they were. It was. The word used was emotional inflammation. Well, if you weren't so emotionally inflamed and, like, I mean, it was a thing that warranted tears. I don't understand why we've vilified that. You know, tears are liquid prayers. Maybe we should ask more questions. So I think pastors don't know what to do. And also, pastors have a big job, right? They are doing funerals and weddings and everything in between. And at smaller churches, they're also, like, cleaning communion cups and all of that stuff. I were. Helped plant a church, and I was the communion cup cleaner. So literally every Sunday after we had communion, I would wash and sterilize all the communion cups because we couldn't buy more until. So we could use them the next week. So I recognize there's a lot on the plate of leadership, but this is, again, where tagging into organizations that can help you is really wise. And if you think it's not a problem in your church, you're wrong.

Yeah. Yeah. That's power to think about one in three relationships, one in three marriages. And those that have had the courage. I mean, that's hard to begin with, to have the courage to ask for help, to have only 4% say they would go back because they weren't empowered to pursue health and freedom. They were told to go back into an unsafe situation. And I think what I would circle back to is what you said, the two words, our power and control. And I think if we're a pastor, a church leader, we're in a position that people are coming to us, sharing their burden, and we can pick up on patterns where someone is exercising authority and dominion over another person. That's not going to be a healthy relationship or they're trying to control them. Those are signs of what you've been saying, course of control and abuse. So we need to start calling that out and not just focusing on, well, how can you communicate better or what, but what could we do next time to work through this situation in the marriage? Like, no, if they're exercising those kind of patterns, we need to call that out as inappropriate, as wrong, as harmful, and really direct someone to making significant relationship change and not putting blame on the other spouse. Well, how can you keep them happy? Because that is not enabling, as we would say in so many other areas. That's what I always find interesting when we take it out of maybe a marriage relationship. If we were talking about drugs and alcohol, you know, we call that enabling, and we'd say, you should not enable the abuser to go abuse more drugs. You need to say, that's wrong. I need you to stop. And if you're not willing to stop, there need to be boundaries and consequences for things I'm not going to permit. But when it's at kind of that relationship level of power and manipulation and control, we sometimes suggest enabling behaviors like, well, how can you just get along and make it work? Like, no, we need to call this out for what it is and expect that change will happen. Or there needs to be safety created by having space in that relationship.

Yeah. And let's just apply the gospel, right? If you see someone walking off a cliff because they are a destructive individual and they are acting wickedly, and the sin, the real heart of power and control is the same heart Satan had when he said in the book of Isaiah, I will sit on the throne and be like the most High. They want to be God. If you don't say, do you know Jesus? What are you doing? What are you doing, Pastor? Do you not love this individual enough to invite them to repentance? To say, man, I think you might think you're a sheep, but I am seeing some goat patterns here. I would not want you to stand at the end of days before our maker and go, didn't I do all this in your name? Like, maybe they're deacon, maybe they're the pastor. I would not want to let somebody stand before the Lord and say, yeah, I knew they were kind of goat like, and I didn't say it. I didn't challenge them. I didn't bring them to accountability. I didn't invite repentance.

That's really good.

I don't want to answer for that. You know, I wouldn't want a pastor to answer for that.

Yeah, that's really good, Tabitha.

So, Tabitha, and the. The work that we do in helping people overcome sexual addiction, break free from compulsive sexual behaviors, heal from their betrayal, trauma, abusive patterns, course of control might also be overlapping and commingled with that. So in your experience, how does that overlap happen or work? And what do you suggest when someone is trying to deal with both? That there's both sexual addiction going on and patterns of abuse or course of control.

Yeah, I will say, first of all, all addiction is abusive. There is an abusive component to all addiction, right? Because you're lying, you're gaslighting, you're hiding things, you might be hiding finances. The real distinction is you're not necessarily taking the personhood of your partner. So the guys that I work with, because I am a certified sex addiction therapist, the guys that I work with who are addicts, who've had abusive behaviors are truly sad about what they've done. Not. Not just remorseful. Like, dang, now I'm sitting in your office remorseful, but, like, I have harmed my spouse. This is awful. I cannot believe I did these things. I never thought I'd get to this point, right? How many. How many folks I know, you know, Nick and Ashley, you guys have probably heard this as much as I have. I cannot believe, right? It led me down this path, right? And there's a brokenness, a true sit. I call it sitting in the sock. That. Where they're, like, holding that weight and going, yeah, I did this thing, right? Guys who are abusers and coercive controllers are like, well, I don't understand the problem here. It should just be xyz. Like, why are we even having this conversation? They owe me. I own them now. They might not say it in those words, but their actions say it. And. And that's a very different place. So it's, I am owed sex and I am consuming. I'm consumptive in it. I don't see God's design for it. I don't care about her pleasure. I don't care. I mean, I'd like her not to lay there like a dead fish. Or I'd like Her to reenact pornography with me, or I'd like her to make pornography with me or any of those things. I've seen all of those things in relationships, and I'm doing it because it's my pleasure and I get what I want and I have what I want. And it's bigger than. I'm gonna say this. It's gonna sound so weird, but just addiction. It's bigger than just addiction, but addiction. And addiction by itself is really hard and it's harmful, and there is betrayal, trauma. So I'm not minimizing for all of the folks out there who are hearing this and saying, oh my gosh, like, but you don't know how it feels to just be betrayed. I do, actually. As a survivor. I. My ex husband not only was a coercive controller, but he was a porn addict. And I can't tell you how many times I found things I wish I hadn't and been asked to do things I wish I hadn't realistically. But, you know, and it was terrible. But also adding in coercive control, then you're not even a person in the same way. And so looking at the. The overlap, It's a Venn diagram, right? There's things on both sides actually do have a Venn diagram for this. So you can kind of see where they overlap and where they diverge, because it can be tricky. And you can go, is this. This addiction or is this abuse and addiction or what am I doing here?

Yeah, I hear what you're saying too, because with the coercive control piece of it, you. You feel hopeless. And it's. It feels very impossible to even feel like they will understand it or get it. And so I've. I've lived those two paths that you're describing. I've been married to two addicts, and my current husband, John, he. We've been married 16 years. The difference is what you just said was, I cannot believe I've done this to you. I cannot that. That true remorse and trying to turn the behaviors around and empathy and pain because of what you know, the impact has been. But when you're with somebody who is like the.

The.

The. The mo Is to keep them under your thumb or to distort the reality or to have power or control, it feels so hopeless. And so when I talk to women who either have been divorced or they're going into a relationship and they're scared because they're realizing, hey, our Latest numbers say 70% of men are struggling and 40% of women, how Do I find the ones that are not? I. I will say we're all going to have struggles. We are all going to have struggles. But what I look for in relationships, whether it's romantic or, or platonic or whatever, is that awareness, that ownership, that empathy. Those are the characteristics I'm looking for.

As I hear what you shared, Tabitha, it occurs to me that this really is the heart of addiction, but really the heart of all sinfulness says I'm going to get what I want, when I want, how I want, and I don't care if people get hurt if it means I get what I want. That's the heart of sin. And that's so antithetical to what we're called to in the gospel and living this heart of love for Christ and for others. And when we see that, whether it's in our own behaviors or someone else, it's appropriate to call someone to repentance because that's not the kind of life God made them for. But I think if we're honest, we all can see there's a little bit of that in us. When we want what we want, we'll do what we want to get it. And we should look at that and go, that's not good, that's not healthy. That's not going to lead to a good marriage. And yet that's the very thing that does lead people into sexual addiction. And it's the kind of attitude that leads them into being abusive or exercising coercive control in a relationship. And so I think that may be a helpful way to see the way the two overlap is when we see that attitude creeping up in our heart or someone else, we need to call that out because that's not going to lead us into the kind of good, healthy, other centered life that God has made and called us to.

Right? And intimacy is so much more than intercourse. This is something I've been thinking about that I'm going to say something pretty direct. We'll see if it makes the cut. The evangelical church itself has a sex addiction problem because it has distilled intimacy down to intercourse. That is the primary thing I've heard in sermons. Not how do we people well together, not how do we love each other like Jesus. But if you're in a marriage, then this is how you have sex. And that is so short sighted. And I'm not saying it is all churches, but it is the big C church overall. And I think that we can maybe examine how have we language this right when you have a pastor standing on stage Talking about his smoking hot wife. Then we are from the pulpit, objectifying women, which is not helpful. And it doesn't help the men who are like, wait, what? You know, and it doesn't invite men into the beauty that God has for them as whole people that are more than their lust. I think, you know, when it comes down to it, this harms both men and women in such deep ways. Women from being the object, and they're supposed to be the purity culture, you know, stalwarts of making sure that a man's not sinning. And then men are told, you're nothing but your lust. And that's terrible. It's such a disservice to men and women.

Okay, so this next question, thinking through the lens of recovery, what unique challenges arise when someone is experiencing both abuse and addiction dynamics in a relationship? Just like. Like, how do we approach this when there is both? Where do we begin? How do you tackle both?

Safety first, always. And, you know, even if there hasn't been a physical assault, I can guarantee you there's. There's probably been a sexual assault. Right. Because I can't tell you how many wives have come to me. And when we start talking about what's happening, they flat out been raped. And so we have to acknowledge that there's a lot of unsafety there. And it can go from words to actions like murder really, really fast. The most likely time for a woman to get killed is if she separates. Yeah. And so just to put it, you know, that way, we have to look at safety. So we don't want to. If you're a pure desire leader listening to this, and you're like, dude, Billy Bob over here. And I don't know if you have a Billy Bob. I'm not really talking about your Billy Bob, but Billy Bob over here, I'm pretty sure he fits this. I need to have some words with him. Please don't. Because you could put her in danger. Get educated, get help, you know, get more resources, but understand that we don't want to unnecessarily put people in danger. And we do not ever want to take a victim's autonomy that has already been taken through abuse. And so we want to let that person lead. So if they say, I don't want you to confront my husband, I know he's the worship leader, and I understand that that's a pickle for the church, but if you do that, then we have no job and no way to feed the kids. And I'm probably not going to make it through the night. Like, that's real. That's real. I mean, we know from pastors who have been caught just in sexual sin, as if that's something small. Say, well, I didn't tell anybody that I was struggling because I didn't want to lose my job. So how much more so can we look at that for a victim of abuse who does not have financial resources and that sort of thing? So we want to lead with safety first and foremost. And if you're listening and you are a potential victim and you're like, oh, this sounds frighteningly familiar, get help. Reach out to an advocate called to Peace Ministries. Like I said, many wonderful advocates. The advocate training program, which I'm a part of, it's phenomenal. It's based on empirical, scientific data and the Bible. And we help our advocates untwist all the scriptures that have been twisted and weaponized. You know, a lot of victims of sexual abuse and domestic abuse and all of that in the Christian church, they've had scripture weaponized to keep it going. And so not only that, then there's spiritual abuse. And they might not even like God. They're like, I don't know what to do with God right now. So we want to gently enter in with them. And so you want an advocate that knows what they're doing. If it's like, dude, I'm probably going to get killed tomorrow, go to your local domestic violence shelter and get some help there. They have a lot of resources in your own community, and all you have to do is Google domestic violence shelter near me from a safe device, like, not your own, and you can find that information and get some help and start there. You know, and if you're like, I don't know what to do at all, you can also go see a therapist and. And talk through it, or, you know, if you're not sure, and we'll have a quiz that I'm going to provide that says, am I in a destructive relationship? And so you can get some ideas as well about, is this safe? Is this not safe? Where are we at here?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think from the struggler or addict side, maybe we recognize some of these tendencies in ourselves. And. And hopefully if we're listening to this podcast, we're probably in that category of I've had some bad days before, I've done some disappointing things, and I am remorseful. I don't want to do that. My recommendation is we just consider this part of our recovery, that you would add these behaviors to your relapse. Circle to say, if I yell at my wife, that's going to be a relapse. And here are the things I'm committed to doing to learn, to change and to grow. If I'm involved in gaslighting or manipulation, lying. These patterns, of course, of control, if we recognize them in our tendency that when we're at our worst, we've done some of these things that fits in our recovery, to say that is also something I'm recovering from because I'm committing. Just like we say about the inner circle of relapse, these are things I am committing to never do again because I've defined them as wrong. I recognize they're destructive, and I'm going to do everything I can, by the grace of God and with the help of others, to avoid that circle ever again. And if I choose to go back, I'm going to very clearly delineate a list of consequences, things that I'm going to choose to do, to take it serious and to learn and grow. And if we need to include those patterns, that would be completely appropriate. And I think for group leaders, that's something to look for too, is just to say, hey, you need to add that to your relapse plan. You need to add that to your inner circle. Because you're saying, this is not okay. I don't ever want to go back there. And when we give it that kind of language, that kind of seriousness, I think these that our recovery in a positive way, we can be recovering from both simultaneously. We don't have to treat these as two separate things. Like, okay, first I got to get the addiction under control, and then I can stop, you know, abusing my wife. Like, no, you could actually be working on both simultaneously. Because all of it, as we've been talking about, really can be coming out of that same center of, I'm going to get what I want when I want, and if I see that and I'm repentant of it and turning from it, just make it part of your plan. And we've really seen that be effective in a lot of groups and recovery strategies.

Absolutely. And get good accountability. Right. If you're like, oh, man, this does sound like me. Oh, I've done these things. Oh, no. Right. There is an online version of a program called Men of Peace, and it is through an organization called peaceworks. So you can go and you can get that, but you need an accountability team. Right. Like, we can lie to ourselves in our heads so well. But when you have somebody outside of you going, hey, man, what did you actually say to your wife, how loud were you? Did you wake up the children? What time of day was it? Did you let. Not let her leave the house? Did she tell you she felt scared? Right. All of these things that you can then have a partner in holding you accountable and making change. And change hurts. You know, I just want to say that I think we are so pain avoidant at times in our society that when the real work of change is happening and we want something else so badly and it hurts so much because we're not getting our way or what have you, or it's hitting our own sense of self that we go, yeah, I'm not doing this. But what you're costing yourself is so much higher. And it's like any addiction, right? Like, when you are actively in addiction, you cannot imagine your life without it. But when you're walking in your life without it, you're like, man, I was missing out. And that is such a delightful experience to get to that other side. And it is not cheap repentance. So pastors who are listening, it is not check boxes. Well, he's doing the things okay, but where's his heart? What does he believe about marriage and his wife and these things? Right? That's why accountability is so important. We cannot do sloppy agape anymore in the church.

No, that's so good. And I and it just to emphasize if you're, if you recognize yourself in any of these patterns, like, like Tabitha said, it can escalate so quickly. And I've experienced that going from hitting, you know, next to your head, but not your head, and wish I could kill you and get away with it, that. That goes quickly. And so if that is in your marriage and we have, we have couples that come through and there's abuse patterns in the marriage. Get help now. Just get it now before the pattern and the train runs away and there's a, there's an outburst or consequence that you cannot recover from. And so get the counseling. Figure out where that anger is coming from, that. Those control issues for yourself alongside continuing your seven pillars group or whatever it.

Is you're in, right? And do not do couples counseling. Pastor, if you are hearing this and you're like, we'll just do some couples counseling. No, you won't, because that is contraindicated, which means it's a bad idea. That was my 50 cent word for it's a bad idea. Because what you're then doing is putting the victim at risk because they can't be vulnerable. True couples counseling. Both parties are accepting influence from the other. Both parties are, you know, humbling themselves and looking at what they, you know, need to do better and whatnot. In an abusive relationship that is not happening. And the vulnerable party, the victim, is going to say, you know, they're going to go in trying because they, man, people don't want to get divorced. When people are like, well, she just alleged abuse because she wants to be divorced. I can tell you, I've not yet had a woman sit in front of me and say that ever. They have said, what can I do to help him change every single time. Except it's his work, not hers. And so when she's in there trying to save her marriage and she's vulnerable or you do call him out on something, you have sent her home with a bear that has just been poked and you have caused danger. And, you know, if you ever want to hear about the. The horror story that it could become, go listen to Neil Shorey's story. He is the director of church partnerships at Call to Peace Ministries, and he was the pastor that Stacy Peterson told about what Drew Peterson had done to his previous wife. And Stacy's body has never been found, and Drew was convicted of killing his previous wife. So if you don't think that can happen, I. Pastor, I don't want that to be you. I don't want that to be you. That's why getting educated is key. Once you see you can't unsee, and then you walk rightly and you're protecting your flock. And if you're a man listening to this or a destructive woman listening to this and thinking, that would never be me, you probably thought that about addiction. And also, we're here. So I. I just want to challenge you. Please don't stay stagnant, Tabitha.

For a lot of people listening, we have talked about some of the extremes and things that may be more common than we realize, but. But many of us might be feeling like, well, well, I don't think that's happening around me. And yet it might be. And something is happening around you. And so if we're a pastor or we're a group leader, or we're maybe just a concerned person in relationship with others. If we suspect that abuse is going on, what is our role? How could we be a helpful part of someone facing the recovery journey? What kind of advice would you give to people that might be in that helper role? And this is kind of a new area for them, and they're feeling a little overwhelmed, like, oh, my gosh, that sounds Way too big. What are things they can do? How would you encourage them to be involved?

Yeah. If you start to notice those patterns of power and control. Now, let's say you have a guy in your group. You're, you know, one of the seven pillars leaders, and you're listening and you're like.

What?

You know, and. And they're not coming to the table. It's all their spouse's fault. Right. Because clearly their spouse is a narcissist. Right. Like, that's got to be the problem. Then that is something where you go, that. That's not a humble heart. And you can call that out, like, man, I think we're supposed to be talking about you here. Right. You know, tell me more about that. If you start to be worried, like, I think this might be going on, and I. If you have permission, if you're allowed to approach the spouse, then say, hey, I just want to check in. How are things?

Yeah.

You know, and give them space. And know that victims often give you just a little bit at a time because they're trying to see if you're safe. And so you're not going to get it in order because the amygdala does not think in order. No time and space in chronology. That's your prefrontal cortex. The thinky, thinky parts, they're all up in the feely, feely parts with abuse. And so know that you might not get things in order and you're not going to get everything at once because they need to know you're trustworthy. That also means that if you're a leader and you are hearing something, you don't start sitting down with both parties. You don't go back to the spouse and tell them everything, all that stuff, to be really careful. Right. And having access to resources. So let's say you're like, man, I'm in the seven Pillars group at my church and I'm hearing these things and I'm seeing some things, and this feels really off. And I'm not sure what's going on. Then what resources does your church have that can then maybe come alongside. Do they have a care department that could come alongside the potential victim and get more information and make sure there's safety, you know, especially for the victim and the children, you know, what are the things that are in place? So if you're a church listening and you're thinking, really like to have a seven Pillars group, and now I'm terrified. Thanks, Tabitha. Then I would just encourage you again, get educated. Get some more Resources and then have a plan. Have a plan. Like if this comes to light, what are we going to do? If you're a seven Pillars leader, have a plan. How do we get a little more information without endangering somebody? And then if there's action to take, what does that look like? You know, and, and really learning a bit more and also not being afraid. Right. You are a Seven Pillars leader because it has helped you. Right. Most, most folks that lead it. Right. Are former, you know, people recovering. And so you want to be someone who's a people helper. This has spurred your heart and this is just another aspect of people helping. And so what does that look like for you? Well, it might look like going to your pastor. It might look like giving someone a resource. It might look like praying. It should definitely look like praying, you know, and all of those things. And then talking about destructive tendencies and just making mention of it like, hey, in your addiction, you know, what kind of destructive tendencies have you had? And asking some of those questions, using the material that is in the seven Pillars program to help you out with that is really helpful.

Yeah. As you're sharing that, Tabitha, what comes to mind for me is the quote that don't let the good, all the good you cannot do keep you from the good you can do. So don't let the fact that you're not a counselor, you don't know everything, keep you from some of the things you can do. You know, if you suspect someone may be a spouse who is suffering, is a victim coming alongside of them, just saying, what do you need? What support? How can I be a part of moving you towards safety? Or if you're in group and you suspect someone may be that abuser or practicing coercive control, asking those questions like Tabitha brought up of what do you mean when you say you got a little mad? Or what do you mean? Ask those questions and try to get to the truth. And if you discover that there's more there, being that encouraging voice, say we love you so much to say you need to get some professional help. This is not okay. And what do we need to do here? I think just practicing some common sense of love and showing concern and getting specific enough that we don't just let something happen along the edges that we're all concerned about, but no one really asks, gets in there. So yeah, maybe you're not going to be the one to lead them into long term change. Maybe you're not the professional, but you might be the bridge of care, of concern, of safety, of Love, encouragement that gets someone to face that and take the steps that could lead to the kind of change that they need.

Yeah. And I would also say for you, know the facilitators of groups, know your resources locally.

Yeah, Right.

Know your local domestic violence shelter, know your local therapists that know what they're doing. If you need help with that, I'm absolutely happy to help figuring that out. And also know your biblical counselors. There are some biblical counselors I would not trust with abuse to save my soul, but there are some that are excellent. And, you know, someone like me who knows a lot of them can absolutely help you get to the right ones if that is, you know, helpful. So really looking at what resources do I have so that you aren't going it alone. If you've seen one case of abuse, you've seen one case of abuse, because they all have their nuances. And that way you can say, I have these local partners, I have these ministry resources that I can talk to about a case I can ask questions of. I have had many biblical counselors and also facilitators of various things come to me over the years and say, hey, can we just talk this through? And I'm always happy to do that. Yeah.

So good. Tons of great advice. And I just. I really hope that at the bare minimum, if you're. If you are an abuser, get the help you need. If you're an abusive situation, get the help you need. If you are a helper, help that victim feel safe and seen and that she or he is supported and that you will help them find the right help or at least encourage them to find out. Get them connected with somebody. You don't have to have the answers. We never have to have the answers. We just need to come alongside people and say, we'll. We'll be with you as we help you find the right answer. And that, I think, kind of brings the level of feeling overwhelmed, like, we need to know it all down a little bit. So such a good conversation. And I know for a lot of us, there might have been, you know, triggers or whatever, but it's important that we. We don't tiptoe around conversations because we're afraid of offending somebody or triggering somebody because they need to be had these conversations. So thank you so much, Tabitha. And just to close out, what's one piece of encouragement that you want to leave with our listeners today? And also, can you let our listeners know how they can find you and. And your resources?

Yeah. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna split my encouragement into two, okay? For people who are victims or survivors, it was not your fault. It is not your fault. You did not cause this. Nothing you have ever done has caused this. This. No one causes abuse. We do not do something that made somebody so angry that it is our fault. And I just want to say that clearly because there's nothing that you could have done that would have warranted it. Nothing at all. And for people who are destructive, there is hope and there is healing. No, it's not an easy road. Yes, you have to swallow your pride. But I promise you that Jesus is better. I promise you that. And I promise you that being non destructive is far better and far more intimate in all of the things you truly desire than what you are doing now to achieve something false. And it's just like addiction. You had to be able to say, I am an addict in order to start healing, right? That's step one of every 12, 12 step program of all time. I could not do this myself. And it is the same with abuse. No one likes to say I'm an abuser, but I'll use what my friend Chris Moles, who's a better interventionist and author, says. When is a thief no longer a thief? Not when they stop stealing, but when they become generous. And that is a heart change that God has for you. And you get to do it through the power of the Holy Spirit that lives in you. And if you're like, man, I'm feeling kind of goatee, you might want to repent so that you are a sheep and that the Lord changes your heart of stone to a heart of flesh. So that's my encouragement for both sides of this coin and for people struggling with addiction, whether you're a man or a woman, also get help. You have so much more in intimacy than what you are getting through the addictive behaviors. There's so much more comfort and goodness than what you are availing yourself to in this way. And I know it's around us. It's hard to quit. It's hard to walk differently. Whether it is videos or erotic fiction. Ladies I'm talking to book talk, like all of those things, right? But there's so much better. And true intimacy is so much better. So just want to lay out the path that God does change all of this, right? It's a hard road. It's not easy. Sometimes it's like digging out, you know, a new river channel with a teaspoon in a cliff wall. But God gives us the power to do that and he will do that. So that's my encouragement to everybody. And then where to find me, you can find me@tabithawestbrook.com and that's all of the things like my podcast, my book body and soul healed and whole, all of that can be found there along with some blog posts that are hopefully helpful. And then if you're like I need some clinical or biblical counseling help, then that is our clinical practice. That's the journey and the process.com and I have counselors in Texas and North Carolina. We have folks licensed in various places and we have a biblical counselors that are amazing and they are not take two verses and call us in the morning. They're like the real deal, trauma informed, abuse trained counselors that are incredible. And so we want to come alongside and help folks that need that higher level of care. And if you are a seven pillars leader and you're like Holy Toledo, pure desire knows how to find me. And I would be happy to help you out.

Yeah. And we will put all of those links in the show notes and I would really encourage you, you know, if this was kind of an introduction for you, you know, grab Tabitha's book because that'd be a great way to take another step into understanding this topic and what role we might play in helping move people towards their healing and recovery. And you know, as we close this conversation, we're reminded that abuse in marriage isn't always physical. It's not always obvious, but it is always harmful. And Tabitha, your insights today challenge us to see the full picture of abuse and the ways that it might be hiding beneath the surface, especially when addiction is also co present. So if you're in a recovery group or church setting, your role matters. You can help create a space of safety, truth and support that might change someone's life. And if you're in an unsafe relationship today, please hear this again. You are not alone. You are not to blame. And there is help, hope and healing is possible. It may take a brave step on your part, but we believe when you reach out to the resources that Tabitha has recommended as we talked about today, that you could see change and hope in your situation. So Tabitha, thank you so much for this honest, important conversation. It was great to have you as our guest today.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

And if you are a fan of today's show of this content, please subscribe, write us a review, share it with somebody else so that others might come in contact with this life changing information. And if you would like more information on pure desire, groups, resources or counseling. Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.