Communicating Desire to My Spouse w/ Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn | Ep. 479

Well, Jeff and Shaunti, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast. Welcome back to Shaunti and Jeff. Welcome for the first time. It's great to have you guys on today.

Well, thanks for having us.

Absolutely. Great to be with you.

Yes. Well, we are excited about this topic and the series we're in because we know that for even Christian married couples, talking about sex in marriage can be a challenge. And you guys have been a part of a project called the Marriage Intimacy Project. So tell us a little bit about that and how you actually did this research study. Like, how did you get people to give honest answers about this part of their lives?

Well, we had fun with this particular project because it was so— well, first of all, talking about sex and that kind of thing, it was so beyond what we had expected to do. And not a topic that we ourselves Had spent a lot of time thinking about it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure. Like, we are in no position—

Exactly.

To, like, judge anybody who has difficulty talking about sex. Um, but this research study, we had this incredible opportunity. It's sort of a long story how we got there, but we ended up, uh, doing a 3-year research study, um, with us and with Dr. Michael Seitzma, um, for this book, The Secrets of Sex and Marriage book. And we basically spent Um, 3 years with, um, Dr. Seitzma every, every Wednesday morning at his office. He's a sex therapist.

And has been for 35 years.

35 years. And so every Wednesday morning from 9 to 12, we spent all morning, uh, with him, like just pulling out all of his experience. And Jeff had way too much fun telling people when they're like, what are you doing tomorrow? Oh, we're going to a sex therapist. He like, Totally.

Well, here was one of the things that during the beginning stages of it, it was right during the COVID lockdown.

Yeah.

And, you know, you couldn't be on the road driving. I mean, everyone was sheltering at home in space, in place. And yet there were exceptions for certain counseling industries, industries like the sex therapist world. So we would drive to meet with Mike during that time, and I was so hoping that a police officer was going to pull us over and ask us what we were doing on the road.

So that he could say, we're going to a sex therapist.

And that's okay.

Yes, he had way too much fun with that. But bottom line, we ended up doing what we called and named the Marriage Intimacy Project, which is the largest research project ever conducted Uh, with married couples.

A matched pair.

On, yes, called a matched pair study. Um, that was both based on all those years of talking with Mike, but then talking with a bunch of couples, um, both over Zoom and, um, in a nationally representative survey of matched pair couples, which is basically a, a fancy way of saying that it was all anonymous, but we could tell which respondent was married to which respondent.

Which couples went together.

Yeah. Exactly. And so we, we, we came up with a fun way actually of, of getting the couples we were talking to to be able to be honest.

Yeah.

So one thing was we, we wanted this to be anonymous. So we had the ability to recruit or to ask friends of friends of friends if they knew someone that would be willing to speak into this topic over Zoom with us on an interview, and that we would ask them questions and they would have their camera turned off. Ours was turned on. We didn't know who they were. We couldn't see them. And, uh, they would use fictitious names.

Yes, like Clark and Lois, you know.

And so we would refer to them throughout the interview as Clark or Lois So it was Han and Leia.

It was, it was fun. It, it ended up, we, we ended up casting the net very widely nationally and got, um, just an incredible group of dozens and dozens of couples to be willing to share their experience with us anonymously.

And, and from that, we were able to build these hypotheses. And yes, that we then tested on the, the surveys. Yeah.

And so the whole goal behind the Marriage Intimacy Project was to dig out what are the little things that most, um, individuals, most couples don't really get about intimacy in marriage. What are some of the areas that tend to trip us up? What are some of the myths that we believe, um, including about each other? Um, and what are some of the ways to help people have a thriving marriage in this area. And so that— it was a really— it was a little awkward at first as we sort of got used to talking about it, but it ended up becoming, I think, a really, really important study.

So why is it important to approach the topic of intimacy in marriage with both a clinical and biblical perspective? And how has this been fruitful for you?

Well, it's— for us as people of faith, it, it was important to include both the biblical and the clinical perspective from the very beginning, in part because we all know this is— this area of sexuality and marriage is something God created, and he has purposes for it that go beyond what the average, you know, maybe secular scientist might be trying to investigate. So we wanted to investigate the whole thing. Like, for example, the Bible talks about oneness. in marriage. That's not necessarily a term you hear in secular psychology or in the sex therapy world. And so, we wanted to be able to investigate all of that together from the beginning. And it was just, it was absolutely fascinating. When you talk about how is it fruitful, I just love that science— And really well-done social science and neuroscience, etc., that they back up what the Bible has said all along. Yeah.

Ken, from my perspective, if I can jump in where we talk about the clinical side of it, Shaunti and I have done so many of these nationally representative surveys, trying to dig out those little things that just the average person, couple, doesn't really understand or know about. And we realized though, pretty quickly that this is one area that if we drew our own conclusions or, you know, just out of lack of experience, exactly, we could do damage. So therefore, that's really a key reason why we wanted to work with Dr. Seitzma because of his experience, because of, you know, the way that he has conducted clinical—

Research.

Surveys in the past. So we felt a high level of confidence that we were going to get to something. It was going to be helpful and prove hopeful for couples.

And I guess we should— I've— I guess I forgot to explain something really important about Dr. Zeitzma. As you said, he has been in this arena as a sex therapist for 35 years, but he's also trained— probably this is not too much to say— most of the Christian sex therapists out there. I mean, that's— he has, uh, he is one of the recognized leaders in the Christian community in this arena.

Well, I love that you guys are combining those two of the biblical and the clinical, and, uh, and that's our approach as a ministry. But I, I think particularly in the area of sex, that's so valuable because even in the Christian community, we can kind of really quickly move towards sex in terms of just the physical aspect of it, how to improve, to focus on the— not only the, the physical nature of it, but the emotion and, and how do we have good sex. Or we kind of go to just the spiritual side of, well, you know, we just need to know how to have respect for one another and honor one another and make it worshipful. And that's good as well, but I don't see many resources that connect the two.

Hmm.

Of doing both well, of understanding that, yes, there's a physical dynamic to it, but there's equally a spiritual dynamic, and we shouldn't talk about those as either/or or different poles. They're like, they're both deeply connected to the experience that couples could be having in marriage.

Yeah, and that's honestly— you put your finger right on it there, Nick. Mike, in addition to being a licensed sex therapist with all those years of experience, is also a pastor. So, I mean, he really brought the theological side.

Both sides. Yes, exactly. I really like how you put that, truly. I mean, I, I'm not sure I would've been able to articulate it in that way, but that's exactly why no matter what you're doing around this arena, you need to have both.

Yeah. So one of the things that you articulate is the importance of communication, the importance that we communicate about intimacy in marriage. But we know that many couples don't want to talk about this topic in their marriage, or they don't know how to. So why do you think we don't communicate about this area?

It's awkward. I mean, and also, I mean, kind of embarrassing, perhaps, to admit that I don't know this about you. And I might not even know some things about myself.

Yeah.

So we just kind of manage around it.

Yeah, it— what we found, just so everybody knows, is that 73% of couples can't talk about this topic well.

Wow. Wow.

Yeah, so only 27% can. So if you're in that 1 in 4 who can, awesome. Um, but we certainly weren't before this project, and, um, and it was actually really encouraging to us that learning some of these things actually opened up that communication for us. Um, but one of the things we found along the way is that one of the reasons, other than just the fact that it's awkward or embarrassing, that we don't communicate about this topic is also, to some degree— I know this is going to sound funny, but we actually have a lot of assumptions already inside us, um, a lot of ideas in our head about how things work and what our spouse is thinking. And we, we just don't realize that some of those are wrong.

Yeah.

So we actually don't know there's something to communicate about. And so that falls, that creates a lot of—

It is. I mean, so you oftentimes, because you have those assumptions, you just kind of think your spouse isn't getting with the program, you know, because everybody knows that this is how it works.

If they would just think like I think, we'd be fine.

Yes, exactly. One of the things Jeff and I do a lot of marriage events. This, this was literally just this weekend where you, I think, I think the way you put it, uh, when we were talking, they wanted us to do a little, um, a little mini session on this topic. And, um, I think one of the things you said when you stood on stage, you were like, I think the most that I ever talked about sex before was when I was in high school. And—

And, and the fact of the matter is, 16-year-old boys aren't usually the most reliable source of good information. And yet that Information somehow works its way into our consciousness, and we think it's right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

This is so helpful. So if this is us, so if we have a marriage like you're describing, then how do we learn to improve our communication and actually learn how to talk about sex?

Do you want me to?

You start.

Okay, so I'll tell you one of the things that we found along the way in this research process is that people who were more curious about each other had much better communication. And so that was consistent across, and again, this was not a Facebook poll, this was a giant, expensive, nationally representative survey. And so the, um, the, the process that really seems to matter is essentially going, what's going on inside my spouse in this area? What are they thinking and feeling? It's not about the physical stuff. It's about that emotional stuff, the, the perceptions, the thoughts, the feelings, all that, all the stuff that's often hidden. And as you're curious about that, It actually opens things up so much more because the other person, it lowers their defensiveness and you're able to actually talk about some things that would otherwise be awkward. And even just if you're starting pretty simple, you know, in a few small little things, that matters.

I, I, I have a, a, another, um, kind of thought on that. One is, you know, it's like the advice I remember getting as a young single guy was, just go up and talk to that girl. You like her? Just go up and talk to her. I hear that, but it sounds as impossible to me as just about anything. And so, when I hear, well, just talk with your spouse about this. Just talk about this.

Yeah.

It really, for a lot of people, it just feels like a bridge too far. So, When we wrote the book, we wrote it with the design that a couple would read it to one another out loud. And it doesn't have to be our book. There's lots of good books on this topic. But perhaps if you read out loud to one another, and you can get a paragraph or 2 paragraphs in and go, did you know that?

Is that how you think?

Exactly. That's an easy way to start kind of talking about something without having to come up with the questions.

Mm-hmm. I love the word you used that we should be curious, that if curiosity leads the way, you know, it's not accusing or questioning or skepticism, it's just curiosity. And it makes me think of, you know, something you could speak to as an educator, Heather, the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. And I think sometimes in Christian marriage particularly, we think, well, if you're trying to honor God, you have a godly marriage and you say I do at the altar and we're like, hey, go have sex, it's going to be great. And it's it's almost like a fixed mindset of like well we should just know how to do it it should just come naturally and yet that kind of mindset isn't really helpful or healthy in any arena of life let alone in developing that sexual connection with our spouse versus the growth mindset of hey I've got a lot to learn I've got a lot to learn about me about you about our connection and and growth and curiosity is good it's not because we're weak and immature it's like we're new and we're learning and I think. A lot of us would be served by just being comfortable with having a growth mindset in our own marriages.

Yeah, for sure. And because a lot of times, I mean, it is exactly that way. It's like, oh, you just said I do, and now you can go and have sex. And you're kind of thinking, hmm, I wonder what this is gonna be like. You know, the excitement is there, but the whole, the way things function, it's not like it looks in movies, you know? So, you know, that you just have this moment and your eyes meet and everything works its way out. And it's like, mm, I don't know if that was so helpful.

Yeah, and then if there is a mismatch of assumptions, like you were talking about earlier, Jeff, if I assume some things and my spouse assumes other, and then we think it is going to be just a magic Hollywood moment of we fall into bed and it is all perfect, that I think is a recipe. And we then hear from those couples that as a part of their recovery, they talk about not only maybe the sexual addiction that has unfortunately happened along the way, but they just talk about maybe a whole marriage of disconnect, like, hey, from the beginning.

Yes.

We really weren't on the same page. We had unmet expectations and we never even knew how to talk about it. And it just kind of becomes this trail of hurt and pain and lack of communication.

You know, and one of the other things in, in addition to the expectations, the, or the assumptions that we just get wrong, um, it's what, you know, psychologists and therapists call the attributional error. It's not just what I have as far as expectations and ideas. It's what I think my spouse has that I get wrong, that most people get wrong.

Yeah.

So, for example, I mean, I think in part of the study or other studies that there have been on this topic, you know, asking women how many times do they think their husband wants sexual frequency in a given week, and they'll say something like 4 to 5 times, something like that. And men, if they ask how many times does your wife Um, desire that? And they'll say 0 to 1 or something like that. And the gap, the actual gap is way, way less.

I think in our— I would have to go back and look at the exact numbers, but my memory is that it was something like— it was off if you're talking about like number of times per week, for example. It was Literally off by like a half a day or something, like where the wife actually wants far more frequency than the husband thinks she does. And and then the husband, you know, if you're sitting in front of somebody like Dr. Seitzma as a counselor, the husband always looks at the wife and then goes, "Well, why aren't we right having having that kind of frequency?" And as he puts it. That's the right question, right? It's not about a number.

It's not about why aren't you?

Why aren't you? It's why aren't we? And so that's another tool for communication. Again, it's about the curiosity. And when you set and really go lean into curiosity, it really diminishes the feeling that some people have that I'm being criticized. And the defensiveness that rises.

I'm picturing this for couples, like on their next date night, that they could say like, okay, you're gonna privately write a number and I'm gonna write a number on a piece of paper. Then we're gonna slide 'em across and we're gonna look at each other's numbers. And I think you're right. We would maybe be surprised that we're closer than we think. And of course, not in every situation. Some couples probably gonna do this and be like, no, we were miles apart. It's like, okay, that's a good question. At least you know, and now you can talk about it. But I think many couples would be like, oh, Then why aren't we here? And like you said, that is the right conversation of what is getting in the way. Is it time of day? Is it kids' issues? Is it, you know, not creating the environment where that can happen? Is it something as simple as we don't have a lock on the door and the kids come in our bedroom? I mean, I, I can't tell you how many couples I've talked to that just said, well, well, their kids could come in any time. And I'm like, have you heard of a lock? Home Depot sells them. They're like $19. You could put it on your door and it locks, and then kids cannot come in.

Yeah.

And it's like a simple thing like that that they could go, oh, that would actually really help us. So, and that gets into the next question, that one of the most common disconnects in marriage is the simple pain of one spouse wanting sexual connection more frequently than the other. So the question is, is this common? And what percentage of couples does this apply to?

It's pretty darn common. We found on the survey that 79%, um, are in that category of not being on the same page.

That one person just wants more than the other.

79%.

Not always the male, right?

No, no, no, not at all.

Not at all. Yeah. I think if I am remembering correctly, it was something about, it was almost a quarter of women. It was somewhere between 20 and 25% of women were the ones who wanted more than their husband if there was a disconnect.

That's right.

And so, I mean, 21%, you know, God bless them. They're on the same page. So, you know—

Well, they're probably not listening to today's podcast.

That's right.

3 cheers for them. And it does, it creates one pain. And, you know, let's face it, we have an enemy, an enemy that has been pretty darn adept at confusing mankind for thousands of years and casting lies. And, you know, the narrative that they'll tell you, the reason why you want more or less, it's oftentimes, it's, you know, accusatory that those thoughts will come into our hearts and minds.

Your spouse doesn't desire you.

Exactly right.

Like, or they're broken, something's wrong with them.

Or whatever. If you— they don't find me attractive, they'd want you more.

Exactly.

Yep.

I remember, you know, actually early in working for Pure Desire, I was reading a marriage book and, um, the, the author just brought up that simple observation of the likelihood that you are in a marriage where one of you is a higher drive or higher desire partner than the other is, is the majority. It's common. They just said the likelihood that 2 equally matched people would marry is slim. And so rather than seeing it as a problem, just acknowledging like, Hey, this is normal. It's normal that one wants it more than the other. And he even brought up in certain seasons of life that might flip-flop.

Mm-hmm.

And so rather than looking down at one or the other as one being right and one being wrong, just saying, hey, this is the reality of where we're at. What's the best way for us to come together? And as a married couple, acknowledging this, do the best we can to really enter into a mutually fulfilling relationship and not get stuck in our corners of like, well, if you were only more like me, or no, if you only were only more like me, we'd be happy. Because that, I think a lot of couples get stuck in that.

One of the most heartbreaking stories that Shaunti and I—

Oh, gosh.

We were at a big conference, not here in Atlanta where we live, but elsewhere.

You can tell them. It was Hawaii.

It was Hawaii.

Suffering for Jesus.

Okay, yes. And a woman met us outside of the— after the keynote, And she said—

And we were talking about relationships and mentioned this study.

And she said, you know, my husband always wanted me to initiate. And I told him that's just not me. And eventually he said, well, fine, I won't either then. And she said, that was 22 years ago.

Wow.

And for the heartbreaking, heartbreaking of The lack of connection, all of the joys that could have been experienced simply because, you know what, I'm not like you.

Well, and it was— that's a good example of something that I'd love to get into in this conversation, which is the enemy, I think, was telling somebody a lie.

Yeah.

And maybe both people. Sure. I think about the fact of what was going on under the surface. Like, you don't initiate, therefore you don't desire me.

You don't want this.

And you don't want this. And it was based on this fundamental, tragic misunderstanding of how this works for people and where this disconnect comes from. Whereas if that husband, or maybe the wife, had just known some of these little things and known that actually, if you don't mind me getting into it, Um, there's one of the biggest issues isn't that there's 2 different levels of desire, it's that there's 2 different types of desire. And so that couple clearly had 2 different types of desire and had no idea.

Um, are you going to tell us what those 2 different types of desire are? Because I'm quite curious.

You gotta, you gotta buy the book.

Sorry.

I'm wondering if that's the next question because Yeah. You maybe lead into that.

Yeah.

Well, and it is usually like Nick was saying that you have 2 people who marry and they have these different levels of desire. But according to your book, it isn't the levels like you just said, Shaunti, it is the types of desire that people actually have.

Well, it's actually both. Like, certainly the levels of desire make a difference, but in that example, like so many, It, it wasn't that. And let me point out something, um, that I think is really important to acknowledge about when people do have 2 different levels, like that 79%, somebody wanting more frequency than the other. Assume— when you assume it's just because somebody has a lower sex drive, that puts an awful lot of pressure on the lower drive partner.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's basically saying something's wrong with you, and the reason we're not happy in this area of our marriage is because of you. And so we think it is incredibly important for people to be aware of this, the fact that it's usually not because of the levels that they're disconnecting, it's because of these 2 different types. So briefly, here's how that works. We, we tend in our culture, and really, I think around the world, we have bought into this idea about how sex and desire work by looking at like movies, like seeing what Hollywood portrays.

Yeah. And in—

if you think about it, there's always just one portrayal of how sex works because you always have the, the man and the woman and they look at each other and there's this spark, right? Like there's this hunger, and pretty soon they're kissing and their clothes are off and they're in bed. Like, it's, it's, you know, they have this surge of desire.

Very primal.

Very primal. Yeah, very much so.

Well, and there's a very much a physical, like, surge of actual desire. And so they did something about it. And so we think that's just how sex works. And if it doesn't work that way in our home, Something's wrong, like something's broken. And yes, actually, that is one way that it works. You could call that initiating desire, but there's a whole nother kind of desire. It's a completely different physiology, and it's called receptive desire. And by the way, that is almost 55% of people. So there's more people who have receptive desire than have initiating desire, actually. And people with receptive desire are just as willing and just as interested and kind of hypothetically, like hypothetically. And once they're actually having sex, they actually enjoy it just as much, but they don't have the same desire to initiate it. And they don't think about it all the time. They're not ready at a moment's notice.

Mm-hmm.

And that We could call that receptive desire. And that, like, like I said, is a, is, is a huge percentage of the population. And it tends more likely to be tied to estrogen. And it also tends to be tied to age for men. So for, it's 73% of women and 38% of men, and mostly as men get older. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and one of the things that was so vital when we started working on this project with Dr. Seitzma was finding that that receptive desire actually physiologically works in the reverse order to initiating desire. Um, so if you think about it, uh, the, the person with receptive desire, because they're not feeling that surge of desire, what's happening is they're deciding to get engaged with their spouse. It's a mental thing. It's like, okay, I'm gonna choose to get engaged. I don't feel that sense of desire right now, but I know I will eventually, and I know it'll be good eventually. Now, by the way, this is assuming that this is a safe relationship, et cetera, et cetera, right?

Yes.

But what happens is, assuming that's the case, as their body starts getting stimulated, eventually— and assume, you know, they're getting aroused, they view it positively, like all that kind of stuff— eventually they begin to experience that sense of desire that their spouse might have felt 10 minutes ago. And Jeff always shakes his head. He's like, crazy talk.

But it You know, it's there.

But this is what is behind so much of the heartache, like that couple, that wife that we were talking about at that event in Hawaii, where she said, my husband says you never initiate. Well, if she has receptive desire, she's just not thinking about it. Like it literally is not occurring to her. Where someone with initiating desire is like, one guy said, there's never a point when it's not occurring to me.

Yeah.

And so what we say, and this is why we devote a big chunk of that, devote that chapter to this entire topic, is to say, look, if your spouse has receptive desire, they just need to be approached differently. Like they have to know what you've got on the menu for the evening before you get to the bedroom. So they can be anticipating it. So there's a lot more there, but basically that's the starting point.

A great reason to get the book. And I love that term, and I think it's going to be one used by a lot of our listeners, that receptive desire idea, because I think it's a beautiful description of someone who, again, in a safe marriage, in the context of a— in our, you know, situation, people that are rebuilding trust and intimacy, and this is possible— someone that may approach their spouse saying, hey, I'm not really in the mood, but I'm open to it. And I would say that has very much mimicked what happens in my marriage, for a little honesty around that, of my wife in the context of our relationship. I sometimes say, hey, I'm in the mood, are you? And she's like, oh, not really, but if you are, I'm open to it. And it's like, oh, okay. So we start to initiate physical connection and partway into it, often something I can just tell shifts. And I'm like, what's going on? She's like, well, now I'm in the mood. Like, oh, okay. And not every time, that's not always the occurrence, but we've definitely experienced that. That is classic. That we might not both be at the same time feeling that initiating desire. She may be more receptive, but I've learned that I have to be willing to be open and honest about my desires of like, hey, I'm interested. Do you think tonight would be good or tomorrow? Is there a time? And kind of arranging when can we have time for privacy? When can we have time that is uninterrupted?

Yes, definitely.

That we have time to connect on another level, not just physical. And those things for her with receptive desire start to create like, hey, we know tonight we've got time and space and privacy and we're gonna spend some time connecting. Well, actually that will, and she's said this to me, that will many times for someone who's not been thinking about it all day now, because we kind of have a plan, she's starting to think about it 'cause there's a plan. And for me, that initially felt really weird because I thought it was always just supposed to be spontaneous. So the idea that like you would kind of plan a time felt like ruining the magic of the moment or something.

Yep.

But I had to learn like, no, that actually allows my wife to begin to engage at a mental, emotional level of like, oh, okay, now I'm starting to think about it. And we might both reach that at the same time then. Like, hey, now we're both in the mood. And I would say, just to add to that, not always, right? I think in a marriage, that's what you also have to be ready for is like, and I'm always trying to do this, I feel like I'm trying to turn it into a formula. That if I just say A at time of day B and she's feeling C, then it will always lead to sex. Yeah. That day. And that's gotten me in trouble so many times because it's like our brain goes, oh, okay, that's it. That's what A is. And then the next time, like, A doesn't work and we're like, oh, what's going on? Like, well, it's because you're human beings. You're not robots. You're not, you know, mechanical things. You're real people. And there's always adjustments.

There was one of the couples that we anonymously interviewed on the Zoom and they told the story of Cracked me up. He was a medical doctor and, you know, busy, busy practice. And they had a couple of young kids. And she was a stay-at-home mom, tired with these kids all the time. And, you know, sometimes really tired that engaging, you know, at the end of a day, you know, connecting was just a bridge too far. And he said one day, you know, he was putting the kids to bed. And he was You know, kind of just telling them a story, praying with them or whatever. And his wife said, I heard how he was engaging with those little kids and I wanted him. And the moment he got the kids down and came in, I let him know how much I wanted him. And he's going, holy smokes. So every time I put the kids down and engage with them in this way— Yeah, that's what you're expecting. This is the easy button. I'm gonna push it and it's gonna work. And she said he did the next time and it didn't have the same result. And she said, I don't know why it didn't.

Well, but that's classic recessive desire, right? Like, and so that's the, that's the thing for people to realize. There is no easy button. I'm so sorry to deliver that news to all the initiating desire couples out there, spouses out there, but There is no easy button, but there is, what there is, is that curiosity and that understanding of how does this work for you and what is most likely for us to both be able to connect in the way that both of us generally want to. It's just, yeah, you have to be okay because Nick, you said something really important when you said that your wife was like, well, I could be open to it. Many initiating desire spouses. would think, oh, fine then, like you have to get it. It's a duty. It's like, no, no, no, that's classic receptive desire.

And, and, you know, one of the— and I'll just pop in here right off of that. We did a conference back a couple of years ago, and the hosts were a brilliant young couple. And I say young, they were in their early 40s, young to us perhaps. And, and, and he went to his wife after this talk and he went, You know, I gotta tell you, I am just so grateful that we're both initiating desire. And she went, um, not so much. And he went, what do you mean? Because you initiate from time to time. And she said, yeah, I do, because I know how much it means to you, and I love you. And it wasn't one of these that, oh shoot, well, I thought you were just you couldn't keep your hands off of me. And it's not that. It's just that we have these different physiologies.

Created by God, by the way. Created by God. Yes.

What are your thoughts, Heather, on these differing desires?

Well, I appreciated that you said that. I think that these are seasonal too, because I remember when, um, especially having younger kids and, you know, you have this pile of laundry that's on the couch and the kids are going to bed and your husband gives you that look. like, hmm, I want sex. And I'm thinking, hmm.

Start to pick up on the cues.

I know. I have this huge couch of laundry to fold, and if I don't fold it tonight, it's gonna be waiting for me in the morning. And so, I just got used to just saying out loud, you know what I think is really sexy is watching you fold laundry. You know, and so that then we would both fold laundry and then it's crossed off my list and my brain is free to engage in sex in this really positive way. But I think it did take, learning those kind of things that, that these are my kind of where my brain is thinking, my responsibilities for today. But if you want to help me with that, and that frees me up to engage in sex, and, and that went a long way in our marriage. Yeah.

And I appreciate in that story that you were willing to communicate. You know, my wife talks about it like windows that are open. If you will help me close some of the windows that are open, this might happen.

Yeah.

And I think in a healthy marriage, that's something we should be learning. That's the curiosity of our spouse is like, hey, What are the conditions for you that do close the windows? You feel better. And then as a spouse, like, make that part of your rhythm that I'm, I'm gonna actively be doing the things, not so that I can push the easy button. And it doesn't mean it always works, but like, if I've learned that for my wife, a clean kitchen helps her feel settled, well then it would be wise of me as an initiating spouse who's maybe looking for that to help keep the kitchen clean and not because it's a guarantee and hey, now it's done, it's gonna happen. But to create that environment where I know, like, hey, if this kitchen's a mess, her brain is probably not on me. And so I just want to help with that. And over time, I think you're creating the environments in your marriage, right, where that kind of connection can happen.

Yeah, there, there is a very, very important addendum to that though, because let's— I'm just going to be stereotypical now. It's not always the husband who's initiating and the wife who's receptive, right? Like, It was 24%, I think, of women who were initiating.

Correct.

Okay.

Correct.

Um, but let's just be stereotypical for a minute because men have been told that, oh, you have to help with the laundry, you have to help with the kitchen, you have to help with the kids and do all the things, which is true. Like it creates those conditions, but just because you are cleaning the kitchen Is she thinking about sex? No. Like, you might be thinking about it.

You associated a clean kitchen with sex.

But it's not occurring. If she has receptive desire, what is happening is, oh, that's so sweet, and on about the evening, right? Like, this is why we say it is so important to also give someone with receptive desire anticipation time. So that they know what you would love to have happen. Like, so otherwise it just, it isn't necessarily gonna be kind of hitting their brain in that way. Mm-hmm. And so that's also something really important to notice cuz otherwise you have a lot of people who are really trying and they're just disappointed and they don't know that it's because, well, you, you also have to give some anticipation time.

Yeah. Uh, Jeff and Shanti, this has been amazing. Uh, we're really excited that to have you as part of this series. And we'd just love to know, is there any final advice that you'd like to leave our audience with today on how we can improve communication in marriage about our desires?

I think probably one of the most important things, which we didn't get a chance to get into, is that in most cases, you've got to recognize that even when there's been hurt, your spouse deeply cares about you. We found this in one of our other studies, is that most people, even in hurting situations, they really care about each other and they want what is best for each other, not just themselves. And so that believing the best of the spouse's intentions towards them, even if there's been hurt, believing the best of the intentions is incredibly important for improving the ability to communicate. And, and candidly, it's, it's important regardless of whether you get the outside help that Jeff was talking about. I should mention, That one of the things that Dr. Seitzman did was created this website with a bunch of resources that includes like referrals to Christian sex therapists. And so I would encourage, and if you don't mind me mentioning it, that's secretsofsexandmarriage.com.

Okay.

Nice.

And so that there's a bunch of articles on there. There's a bunch of referrals to Christian sex therapists, etc. On that website.

That's awesome. And where can couples go to keep up with you guys and to find Jeff and Shaunti these days?

Well, you can go to shaunti.com, which is our website. And, um, yeah, or our social media, which is just my name.

Jeff, you got cut out of that, huh? It's just shaunti.com now, huh?

I know. The jeff.com was taken.

Okay. Well, you guys are awesome. And I know you've said that if people want to book you to come and speak, that if they're a podcast listener, you're offering a 25% discount on that. So Reach out to Jeff and Shanti. As you can tell, they're a great couple, and I think you'd have a lot of fun with them in your church or community. As we've heard today, healthy intimacy in marriage begins with honest communication. When couples avoid talking about desire, their needs, or expectations, distance often grows. But when they choose openness, grace, and curiosity, connection can be rebuilt. Healing takes time, but with humility, patience, and a willingness to move toward one another, intimacy can become stronger than ever before. And so, Jeff, Shanti, thank you so much for your wisdom today, all the great ideas, and for being part of the conversation.

Nick and Heather, thank you.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, and if you're a fan of today's content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review, give us a thumbs up. All of these are ways that more people, more couples can find this life-giving information. And if you want more information about Pure Desires groups, resources, or counseling, you can visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on, my friends. You are not alone.