How To Improve Your Sex Life w/ Cliff & Joyce Penner | Ep. 480

Doctors Clifford and Joyce Penner, welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast.

Thank you.

We've been looking forward to this, so we're glad it's happening.

Yes, as have we. We are just really delighted to, to hear your perspective, your expertise. And since this is your first time on the Pure Desire Podcast, for those who may not be familiar with you and your work, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and the work that you do together?

Well, first of all, I'm a clinical psychologist.

And I'm a clinical nurse specialist.

But we were both raised as Mennonites, so—

Where the S-word was never mentioned.

So it is a little bit unusual for a couple with our background to be supposedly the experts on sex in the Christian community. But the way that happened was I was in practice. I had gotten my doctorate and was in practice in Pasadena.

And I was a professor of nursing at Cal State LA and then was in the process of being in charge of developing the nursing program at Azusa Pacific University.

And I was asked to teach a class of 60 seminary student wives at Fuller on sexual adjustment in marriage. And because it was 60 women and I had never done that kind of a kind of a class before, and Joyce was the professor. I prevailed upon her to join me.

And I resisted but finally gave in. And we always say this was not in our long-term plan for our lives. This was clearly God interrupting our plan for our lives.

We did not have this written down in our, in our high school yearbook that we were going to be sex therapists.

Nor did we even know what such a thing existed.

And so then in— so that was 1975. So we're now in our 51st year. We taught that class, and then it got a very positive response. So we started—

In fact, the lives of these women were changing, and they actually asked if their husbands could join them for the last 2 weeks of that class. And then they went out in the world and Within a year, we were already being asked to be sexual therapists. And we said, but we're not sexual therapists. So we ended up getting trained as sexual therapists.

By Masters and Johnson and Helen Singer Kaplan and all the experts back then in the mid-'70s. And then we were asked to write our first book in 1978. That was The Gift of Sex, which came out in '81.

But even before that, just exactly a year later, we were asked to speak at the CAPS, the Christian Association of Psychological Studies, and give the plenary session. The LA Times religion writer was at that and wrote an article with big headlines on the first page of the religion section of the LA Times, Sex Revolution in the Church.

And there really was There was no revolution going on. It was just what Joyce and I were doing, but it was a nice headline anyway.

And it launched us. And we went from resisting to all of a sudden just one talk show after another and going around the world. So that's how we got to do what we're doing.

Wow.

I mean, 51 years. Is there anything new under the sun? Like, that's what I want to ask.

What has changed?

You find yourself giving the same advice that you gave 51 years ago to that college class?

Well, we're really amazed how much similarity there is in the different talks we've given. And yet there are things that have changed. In 2007, a Sex and the Brain research, huge book, 800-some pages, giving all the research documents came out. And that really made a difference in what we were teaching and how we understood it.

And then the internet came along and all of a sudden pornography was a part of— The world, which everyone walked around with in their pocket rather than at some sleazy store on the dark side of town.

And putting those 2 things together, we came up with our formula for intimacy. Because addiction, pornography particularly, is the opposite of intimacy. And because the brain chemicals that trigger when we watch Pornography are totally different. They're the dopamine surge, the, you know, the drive, the adrenaline. And intimacy is driven by oxytocin, the bonding hormone that we do look in children's eyes when they're babies and when we talk to them to have that bonding experience. And that's what we learn has to happen in the marital relationship as well.

So when you say what's changed, A lot of new information about how our bodies actually work. Yeah, a lot of new availability with porn as a result of the internet. And then a lot of changes physically, I would say, especially for the woman, as a result of the change in birth control pills.

And the hormonal study that was done years ago, and people not being able to use hormone therapy and are being discouraged from that, and the oral contraceptives being so low in estrogen contributed to a lot of pain, and pain became a large factor of what we were dealing with.

And then the other thing that we've focused on a lot is what are called unconsummated marriages. That is, couples that have been married but have never been able to consummate their marriage because of some kind of barrier, usually something that occurred earlier, mostly in the woman's life, that was traumatic, that shut down the body.

But it could also be some kind of physical trauma or injury.

Yeah. Yeah.

So those are a few of the changes that have happened over 50 years.

Yeah. Wow. You guys have seen a lot. Yeah.

That is amazing. So most people have kind of a divide between how they think about God and how they think about sex. So how do we learn to connect our sexuality to our faith system and our belief in God? And perhaps more importantly, why is this so crucial?

I had a woman that I was seeing who was dealing with sexual issues, and she said, when I go into the bedroom to, to make love with my husband, I leave God outside and close the door, um, which kind of pictured Exactly what you're talking about.

But it is so common, and particularly now for premarital couples, because they're— they've been raised with not to do it, and they haven't been taught much about how important it is, sex is, and particularly how highly God values sex in marriage. And so they shut down everything. They either shut down all their feelings, and then when they say, I do, it doesn't come back. It doesn't surface. And so, they're so distraught. And sometimes, it's even a crisis of faith because the pastor has told them, if you don't do it, you'll have a great sex life. But there's been no preparation for that sex in marriage, and no instruction about how wonderful it is, and how to make it, embrace it, and make it wonderful. And then, the other factor is that At least 85— that number is probably higher than now— percent, 85% of premarital couples are already sexually active when they—

Have been sexually active before they get to marriage. We're talking now about Christian couples. Yeah, and so there's kind of a split where they have this belief of what they should or shouldn't be doing, But then they end up not really planning for it or designing it, but they end up in sexual experiences anyway.

And then their sexual drive gets connected with something wrong, and it's only good— it's only got that dopamine when it's wrong. And I remember that one of the first women that came to us years ago, she was on her 4th marriage, And she said, I think it may be about me. And she had that pattern of— and that's also a pattern we see with women who have been sexually abused, where it's only good when it's wrong, when they— because once they're in marriage, they feel trapped. But it also happens with this teaching and then being sexually active but not embracing it as good and of God.

And so we always talk about the split. The belief system and then the behaviors, and those aren't connected. And that's why, because they've kind of connected their sexual drives and their sexual activity with something bad or sinful or—

Sneaky.

Yeah, all that world.

Not embraced and good of God. So, we do work very hard on helping couples to bring God into their sexual relationship, and even premaritally helping couples wherever they are in their sexual journey to commit that to God, to bring God into that rather than to keep that split going, to get their sexual drive, and teaching them how important sex is in marriage. And whatever we do before before marriage should be what helps us have a great sex life in marriage. And how we handle that as leaders in the Christian world is very difficult. You know, how do we say— do we be the ones who approve it, or do we just get with them where they are and help them bring God into it? And that's more the role we take.

Yeah, yeah, that's a powerful observation that prior to marriage we've associated any sexual activity was something sinful or wrong. We've kind of jokingly said that the church's approach can be that sex is bad, dirty, and wrong, so save it for the one you love.

That's right. That's exactly it.

All of a sudden we're supposed to flip a switch and, and something we've only thought of as sinful or wrong is now okay. But no one, like you said, no one has really taught us or shown us the way into really exploring and, and living in the beauty of God's design. And I, I really appreciate what you said earlier that reality that it actually— there is a difference. It's not just that dopamine happened outside of marriage and now I'm getting dopamine inside of marriage, that there's those other chemicals coming into play that are involved in eye contact and closeness to another person's body and respect of them that's creating chemicals that are not present in something like pornography. And, you know, no one explained that to me as a 21-year-old young man, right, getting ready to be married.

Right.

It's like, well, It's all been wrong, and now it'll be good, and God will bless it because we're married. But actually—

And now I won't be tempted for pornography.

Yeah, the other one is, and I won't be tempted for pornography either. But that's not the case.

You know, when it's become such a part of a young man's life.

But what we try to do is to teach that sex is good and of God, and that sexual curiosity is natural.

So, that's why children are so vulnerable to pornography. And now, with even young children having laptops or cell phones, the pornography, they're carrying it around in their pocket. And so, they don't have to have great techniques to find it. It just gets them.

But anyway, so sex is good and of God. Sexual curiosity is natural. A third thing we say is Sexual responses are automatic or innate. We are all born as sexual beings with sexual responses. But the fourth thing is that we have to be responsible for what we do with those. That part's up to us. We have to learn what we do with our feelings. Not that the feelings are bad, but we're called upon to make choices about those feelings.

And that's what's so helpful. If we help kids and individuals make decisions rather than just let their drives guide them.

Or tell them it's all bad. Either one. And then the 5th thing we would try to teach is that biblical standards and mutual respect are the baseline for And so, our decisions, those decisions that we're responsible for, are based on the biblical standards and mutual respect.

Well, I think it's an irony we're seeing of our culture right now that never before in recent memory has a culture been so sexually saturated. I mean, everything has been sexualized, and families and Christian communities less equipped to talk about it. I feel like the more sexualized culture gets, the less we talk about it.

Right.

And that actually leads into the next question, because I know for some of our listeners even tuning into this podcast, they feel a little nervous because it's like, I never learned to talk about these things, it was so taboo growing up. And now they're in marriages where they still feel uncomfortable talking about sexuality, even with their spouse. And so if that's the case for someone, how can they become comfortable in communicating with their spouse? about this topic of sex in their marriage?

It's an interesting question because one of the things we regularly recommend is that they do some reading out loud together because the book almost functions like a third person.

Yeah, a neutral party.

Yeah, and the book isn't addressed just to them, but as they read, they get comfortable saying words that they've They've never— they don't know the difference between the uterus and the vagina. And so they get some basic anatomical learning as well as getting comfortable saying, oh, that's not how I experience it. I experience it this way. And it isn't like the book is absolutely true for everyone. It just is a stimulus to get them talking. And we find our— 2 of our most recent books, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex and Enjoy the Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women. One book is aimed at the man, one book is aimed at the woman.

But they're really for both to read.

And reading those out loud—

And we will make sure those are in the show notes for all of our listeners.

Oh, good, good. Because when they read those out loud, we get almost daily responses from somebody who says, how that opened the door for them as they get going.

And we encourage them not to read to get through it.

It isn't like a school assignment that they got to get done before—

Read it as fast as you can. But rather, you know, if you read a paragraph, it doesn't— not significant to either of you, forget it. You know, just move on. But if it is, stopping and saying, you know, I was thinking as I read that, Or, what were you thinking? Or, you know, I'm thinking that really would be important for us to apply to our marriage, that kind of thing. So, not reading to get through it, but really reading it as a stimulus for conversation between the two of them.

Yeah, that's really great, especially because a lot of times in— and I don't know if this is true for everyone, but I remember growing up in the church and Basically preparing for marriage with the understanding that sex is for your husband and not really for women, that we just are a willing participant. And so it is nice to know that, that there's information out there that is helpful for women to recognize that God created sex to be a mutually enjoyable experience, and it's not just for men. And I think that sometimes there's a lot of pain and woundedness that happens with women, especially who grew up in the church.

Absolutely.

And I think it negatively affects men too, because they— men really enjoy it more when the woman enjoys it.

We often say that there's nothing that turns a man on more than a turned-on woman.

But she isn't going to be turned on and enjoying it if she's just there doing her duty.

Right.

And so, what we always encourage on that front is that there has to be an understanding of mutuality if they're going to follow a biblical model. If we look at the passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 or Ephesians chapter 5, When you read those passages, you clearly get the clear message that the sexual experience is for both.

You know, Ephesians 5 starts, submit yourself one to another, and then it goes on and talks about both of you. Yeah.

And in the same way, in that passage in 1 Corinthians where the Corinthian church was writing to Paul saying, is it a good thing to have sexual relations? And he says, of course it is. But in the context of marriage, and then talks about the man's responsiveness and duty and the woman's responsiveness and duty in the relationship. And so—

And it must be mutual. It's not to just to—

Well, and I want to get back to the comment Heather was making about the message in the church that can be there that Sex is for the man, and it's the woman's duty, the woman's job and duty to keep him at home and happy. And that's one of the ways we divide up the books that we recommend, whether they're recommending a male dominant system or whether they're recommending a biblical mutual sexual relationship system. Yeah.

And the culture we grew up in will make a big difference. Even we have taught around the world, and one thing we have learned for our own benefit is how much our culture affects our interpretation and application of Scripture.

Um-hmm.

That even in cultures that are, for example, Muslim, but they are Christians attending our seminar, They have taken on the restrictions of the Muslim culture.

The cultural restrictions, even if they're not scriptural Muslim believers.

Well, I want to go back to something you were saying, Cliff, that mindset that sex is for the man and the woman's just a willing participant, not only is it harmful to women, but it's also harmful to men in the church, because I think it teaches them a subtle message that says you are a sex machine, you've got all these raging hormones, you have to have those needs met, and God's given you this wife to meet those needs. And it really reduces them to just someone driven by that dopamine hit.

Yes.

Which, as you also brought up, is what a pornographic culture is teaching us, that we're just about the dopamine hit, when truly God's, you know, gift of sexuality is that mutuality. It is in that connection, the intimacy of both giving and receiving, and And the eye-to-eye kind of soul-to-soul, heart-to-heart contact, like, that's, that's the true fullness of expression in a marriage. And if a Christian man goes into it thinking, well, I need sex, it's kind of the way I'm wired, he may even, even in his desire, you know, to be a Christian husband, might miss this fullness of, of what's available because he's been taught that same false, flawed message that it's just about getting your needs met.

And then when we have what we call an insecure sexually needy male, It shuts down the woman. So, then he's so frustrated that she doesn't desire him, and she's— he's learned to look to her responses to affirm himself.

And this is where we believe the Song of Solomon is such a great model for the sexual relationship, because what we see in that book Of the Bible is that, that the man's main job in, in the Song of Solomon is to be affirming of her. He's telling her how beautiful she is and how he likes this part of her body and that part, and this response and that response. And she's the one that does all the invitation. She says, come on, let's get going. Let's go into the garden and see if the The pomegranates have blossomed, you know, and it's not talking about the orchard.

Well, and then we have the Ephesians 5 passage that teaches that the husband's role is to love his wife like Christ loves the church. And we go to Philippians 2 and find the way Christ loves us is by giving up his rights.

And that's the model for women.

Getting with us where we are.

Because that Philippians 2 passage talks about the fact that while He had every right to be God, He gave that up for us. And that is the model that Paul talks about in Ephesians 5.

And we often are asked by men, but isn't it my right? And we say, it sure is.

It is just like it was Christ's right to be God, but He gave Himself up.

To get with us where we are.

Yeah, so good.

Yeah. So what aspects of our sexual intimacy are the most important for a married couple to communicate about on a regular basis?

Well, it's very important for them to have some time to share what their likes and dislikes are, what they've really enjoyed, what kind of touch they like, and whether they do that by experimenting with touch and teaching each other. And we have exercises for that in our book Restoring the Pleasure, where they learn to give and receive touch and to tell each other what feels good. And we also have communication exercises for them to complete and then share with each other.

One of the big things is to clarify their expectations, because if, if a man goes into a marriage believing that he'll be able to have sex whenever he wants it, if that's 3 times a day, then that's the way it is. And if the woman goes in thinking, yeah, we'll do that sometimes and I'll enjoy it, you've got a big, big difference there. And so for early married people, we always push them to be really clear in what their expectations are.

Mm-hmm.

And that's one thing. And then frequency is a big issue. And then initiation is another one.

That goes together, the initiation and the frequency. And we have a question for our intake form when we're seeing a couple for the first time. And we have them complete separately. And we would encourage couples who are listening to do this themselves, to separately answer the question, how often do we have sex? How often would I like to have sex? How often would you like to have sex, the spouse? And it's amazing, many times when frequency and initiation are the issue, they will think they're way far apart. Because let's say the traditional is a woman, but many times—

It can be the opposite too.

Yeah, she might say, oh, once or twice a week, and he might say 2 to 3 times a week. Well, you know, this isn't so far, but what's happened is that whichever spouse is a little higher number, they've become the initiator.

Well, what I talk about is Is the man's not wanting to miss the window of opportunity. So he checks every 12 minutes whether this is a good time.

Or at least every day.

Always ready.

Yeah. So she thinks he wants it 10 times a day, but he really only wants it once or twice, or at the most 3 times a week. But she's got a distorted view of what he wants.

Yes.

And that's helpful just to answer those questions. It is a helpful discussion for couples to have and see how far apart they are and what is a good compromise.

What I love about what you guys are saying here is so many of these, you know, questions, conversations seem so doable. You know, what do you like? What do you not like?

Right?

That's not rocket science to just say to your spouse, right, what do you enjoy when we're together? Or to ask a simple question, What level of frequency would you like in our marriage? And what level would you like? These are some pretty straightforward things. I think maybe we could be so caught up in fear or shame, or as you brought up, the culture we grew up in and the messages we've inherited, that we haven't even approached some of these basic things to learn so much about our spouse that might help us realize like, oh, we're closer than we thought, or we're doing better than we thought. Yes. You know, that's another piece of advice that we were given at actually one of the recent Pure Desire conferences where the speaker really gave the idea that in a relationship, in the marriage, if you're kind of scoring your level of satisfaction with your sex life, the low number wins. Meaning if the wife is saying, well, I'm satisfied at about a 2 out of 10, and the wife says, well, or the husband says, I'm an 8 out of 10. Well, the, the number 2 wins because you're only at a 2 really in your marriage. And so it's, it's really wise to really work alongside that 2 and say, what would help you move from a 2 to a 3? Or what could I do to be more aware of what brings you joy or excitement or pleasure? Because if you're always at an 8 and she's always at a 2, you're going to be kind of stuck at that 2 level versus moving towards one another.

Better believe it.

And again, those aren't hard questions to ask. They're not difficult to comprehend. We just find that most couples never do that. And so if we could just take some of these simple steps, it could make a world of difference.

And our hope is when we recommend that couples read together is that those kind of questions could get naturally answered as they go along, that that just surfaces.

We've kind of hit on this topic, but obviously our world has a lot to say about sex. There's tons of information There's a lot of information out there, and a lot of it unhelpful or unhealthy based on really flawed worldviews or ways of thinking. So if we're a Christian couple looking to improve our physical intimacy, we might appropriately so have a lot of fear of what voices we're listening to or what's on the internet. So what kind of advice do you give couples when they're looking for solid advice on growing their sexual intimacy? Where can they turn to make sure the advice they're getting is healthy and helpful? Yeah, so I think that's a really good question. So obviously reading your books, we could start there.

Of course.

How do you give people just like a framework for developing a healthy worldview of sexuality in their marriage?

Well, one dividing line would be that we would always push for the idea of, of not being focused on a book that is designed to get the woman to be submissive sexually or dominated by the man. Or that would be one important view.

Positive would be that it promotes mutuality.

And there are some secular books that do a good job on promoting mutuality, as well as some Christian books, and there are some Christian books that don't do that so well. And so, that's how we would sort it out, and we would always emphasize that that's the— that's from our perspective the biblical model.

And then another thing would be if they're using a resource and it's causing more tension between them, that either would be an indication that they need professional help or an indication that that resource isn't the right resource for them. So that would be something to pay attention If it's bringing them closer together and it's helping them talk and it's eliminating the negatives in their sexual relationship and increasing the positives, kind of like your 2 and 8, that they're getting more on the same level, that's also a sign.

Yeah.

So those are some filters through which they can choose what resources Yeah, and what do you say—

I'm just thinking of the couples that we've heard from, many of whom have gone to a counselor for help, and they've even said, well, our counselor recommended that we watch pornography together, that that would help our sex life. When you've heard that from couples, what response do you have to help them think through the dangers and damage that watching pornography together might have to them as a couple?

The secular research, not Christian research even, shows that couples who watch pornography together have a really intense sexual experience right after they're watching, or while they're watching. But over time, they need more intense and more violent pornography to get that same response, and they lose their ability to respond to each other.

Because when you think about it, What's happening is you're responding to what's on the screen, not to what's in the relationship.

So it's not about becoming one. It's not about intimacy. It's about just the erotic and getting those intense dopamine feelings stirred up. And over time, we need to move to— if sex is going to be good for us as a couple for a lifetime, it has to have that intimacy.

So, what it does is it pulls a person away from the intimate and intense commitment connection and gets you focused on the outside. So, yes.

Even though you're acting on it together, it's the fuel for the feelings are not about each other.

And so that's why couples will sometimes say, but, but we had such an exciting time the first time we watched porn. And, and we say, yeah, that's natural because that was a dopamine surge. But, but if you're looking for a lifetime of commitment and connection and pleasure, that's down a downward path.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's really amazing. We talk about tolerance with addiction and just addictive behaviors in general, just because we see in a person's history, like their sexual history, where maybe they were using, you know, mild pornography and masturbation initially, and then they have to really kind of accelerate or find something that's more stimulating in order to reach that same dopamine high. And what you're Explaining is that you would actually have this couple who is— they're both experiencing that level of tolerance and having to exceed the pornography they're watching, or exceed the behaviors, or do things that maybe they never intended to do as a couple. And I can see how that would even be so much more destructive to their long-term relationship than even when you have somebody who maybe one person is watching porn and the other isn't. You know what I'm saying? Just the way you described that.

Well, and, and, and what we know is that, that the, the ultimate result is distance rather than connection.

Yeah, I remember even in our marriage, because I'd had a history of struggling with pornography and my wife knew that, and it was 10 years into our marriage when we walked through our healing journey But in our recovery, my wife would have questions at times of, are you wanting to do this only because you saw it in pornography, or is that genuinely what you like and desire? And, and I, I realized that for her, a lot of times that question was being asked out of fear, that even though you're not currently viewing pornography, is that still your context for our marriage? And, and it was incredibly, you know, fair and helpful for her to ask that question. But also there were times to me it was sad because there were times that genuinely is like, well, no, I'm, I'm trying to be curious and playful and maybe we try something new together. And, and it had not been connected to my former pornography use. And so it, it kind of took from us for a season that ability to be more curious and playful and fun together because there was always this fear of, well, did we just— did you just learn that from pornography? And pornography is, is not a good teacher. And it also creates, I think, that fear for a spouse of, well, am I just being compared to something you saw somewhere else or something you want to do but not actually with me but what you saw on that screen? So yeah, just like what you were saying, Cliff, it takes you outside of the room rather than bonding you to the person you're in the room with. Right.

And that is a common complaint of wives when the man has had a porn addiction and wants her to do what he saw in porn to keep him. And he uses it as an excuse to— so I don't go to porn if you do what, what I want, I saw there. And it doesn't work because again, it's not about intimacy. It's about performing and doing something for the wrong reason. So that was a good example.

Yeah. So, um, sex addiction and betrayal can be devastating to a couple's And so what kind of steps would you encourage couples to take to reintegrate sex when they're in recovery from sexual addiction?

Yeah, we always talk about it in, in 2 stages. The first is getting, getting to manage the addiction and getting control of it and dealing with all the issues there, which would be in whatever kind of support group Or whatever system they're working through. But because it is an intimacy issue, we always feel like then there is the second stage, and that is really starting over in the relationship and connecting at kind of an almost primitive level, almost like you're starting the marriage again. But this time, face to face, body to body, and eye to eye.

Not starting with sexual intercourse, starting far away. And that's what our book, Restoring the Pleasure: The Steps to Overcome Sexual Barriers or Problems, is a step-by-step program for couples. And it starts with a foot and hand press. And communication exercises and teaching them and reading and—

And gradually taking in more and more of the body and more and more of a sexual experience.

And the very last assignment is having entry. And so that's number 30. So there are 30 exercises till the final one. But many couples don't know that. So they try to get back to having sex and they just start with sexual intercourse.

They, they pick up where they left off rather than starting a whole new way of dealing with it.

What a powerful idea. I have a feeling you just kind of blew some minds of people listening because they've been thinking about step 30— well, let's have sex and get, like you said, get back to where we were. And the idea that maybe there are 29 other things we could do to baby step our way back into a whole new season of true sexual intimacy. I, like I said, I think you've just blown their minds, and hopefully in a really good way where they're thinking, I've got a lot more to learn. And if we could walk this road together, you know, slowly but surely, it could take us to something new and better, not just try to pick back up where we left off.

Yeah, and so much of the time we try to tell people that that emotional connection has to happen before a physical connection. And a lot of times when you have a couple who are in recovery from sex addiction and betrayal trauma, their emotional connection is way, way, way far off. And so that in and of itself is going to take a lot of time to rebuild before they get to that physical connection.

Yeah, they've got to have dealt with all the pain and the anger and distrust and, and all of that that has occurred during that period.

And all those steps will help guide that process.

Uh, you guys have given us so many ideas. There's gonna be so many great, uh, things in the show notes, so please check that out. But, uh, before we go, Clifford, Joyce, would you just give us, you know, what would kind of be some final advice that you'd want to leave with our listeners on how a married couple could have a deeper, more intimate sex life?

Well, the first thing we'd want to say is that there When a couple is willing to work on it, there is always hope. We never get a couple come to us and we say, you guys are hopeless, this can never happen. We've seen so much miraculous change.

Yes.

When people are willing to vote to devote the time, the energy, and the openness to one another in their relationship with God and in their relationship with each other as they devote themselves to their marriage.

And what is difficult sometimes is when one spouse is willing to work and the other one isn't. And yet we have found if one spouse, the one that's willing, comes for help and gets guidance on how he or she is handling the other, often the other one comes around and wants to be a part of it as well. So even if you're alone in your desire to make a change, we encourage you to go for help yourself because there may be things that you could do and be different that would make your spouse more encouraged to work on it.

Yeah, that is so wonderful. I was thinking about how you described, you know, however many years ago it was, 51 years ago, when somebody asked you to be a sex therapist, and you're like, well, we don't really know what that is. And but I am so thankful that God just prompted you and gave you a path forward with that, because I just know that so many people have been and will continue to be so blessed by your ministry and the help that you provide people.

Well, thank you. You know, now that we're both 85 years old, um, it We mainly do teaching of other therapists and pastors these days. That's, that's become our focus because we're trying to spread the word to other leaders who can spread the word.

Yes, so needed.

Teach these truths to faithful people who can pass them on to other people, right? That's what Paul said to Timothy.

Yes, definitely.

So thank you for inviting us to join you. This has been a good conversation from our perspective.

Yeah, I think I'd circle back to where we started, that you said sex is a gift from God and it's good. And I think for all of us, we could spend truly a lifetime with curiosity unpacking, God, how did you design me for sex and why is it good? And no matter what kind of relationship or marriage we're in, to, to keep leaning into that, believing God does have good gifts for us.

Yes.

And, and in our marriage or in singleness, As we continue to understand and recognize his goodness, I think it'll lead to fruitfulness and help us to live maybe above a culture that has taught us that sex is just a sinful thing or something separate from God. Like, no, this is from God and of God. And so let's lean into what that looks like. And I think we would all be better off because of it.

Yeah.

And so, Cliff Joyce, we're thankful for you. We're thankful for your message that no matter where a couple is at, whatever they're navigating, whether, you know, communication challenges, recovery from addiction or betrayal, differences in desire, or just walking through a tough season, that healing and growth are possible.

Absolutely.

And that healthy intimacy is built through honesty, safety, patience, and intentional connection. And I believe that everyone can take some encouragement out of the, the words that you shared with us today. So thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you.

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