BUILDING THE CONFIDENCE TO LEAVE A TOXIC WORKPLACE.

Hi, welcome to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast, where I speak to marketers in the trenches doing the work. In just 20 minutes, you hear the story of one challenge they faced, how they navigated it, and what they learned from it. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and share with a friend. Hi, Amos, welcome to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast. It's good to have you here. And for everyone listening to us for the first time, Early Stage Marketer Podcast, where marketers, I like to say, who are deep in the trenches doing the work, share something they've struggled with and, you know, how they navigated it, and then the lesson they learned thereafter. So I'm sure that at the end of this episode, what me and Amos will talk about, it's something you can relate to. And I mean, from the lessons Amos learned, I'm sure you can also apply it in your own life and come out at the other side stronger. I love, I love what you said you struggled with, and trust me, I think it's even a universal problem. If you ask me to survey everyone working, who is— who has ever worked, currently working, I think 95% of people can relate and say at one point in their lives and in their careers they worked with difficult bosses. But now let's narrow it down to you. Can you take us back to that time? What's— what was happening? You know, what was happening in that role? What made the situation with your boss very difficult? And then was there a specific moment where you were— you know, in SaaS, when we talk about onboarding, we talk of aha moments. So was there like a moment, your own aha moment, but in this context, where you were like, no, I'm done, I'm not going to fix this, this situation is unfixable? And I'm just moving on to something else.

Okay. And I think I'll just start from like the bottom up. Um, because I've experienced, I've experienced it twice. So like, I mean, bottom up because in terms of the order of questions you asked. So I think the aha moment for me for the first one was when I received a task Saturday night, like by mail. And I texted my leader then. I was like, I should submit this Monday morning.

Okay.

And, and then I was like, it was there and then I was like, oh, interesting. I have another task for myself. Then I started writing my like resignation mail and there and then I sent that in. I sent in my notice. I was like, okay, this has gotten to the point where this person no longer values my own time. Like, I mean, person doesn't value me as a person. The person, yeah, I'm talking about like things person never like really first word, um, value your work. Um, Yeah. And, and I think there's one word that like comes to my mind, and it's sort of empathy, but like not empathy in the sense of like, in terms of like, oh, you should, you should pity someone or something like that. I mean, this one is not doing a good job, obviously, like probably as like any person do and all, but like empathy in terms of like how you deal with people and how you relate with people and how you try to achieve things. Um, I think, um, so that was like sort of my aha moment. Then I think the last— the second time it happened, uh, I think what I just knew was like, okay, I've gone through this before, I'm not going to go through this again. Yeah, I think that rule was just like probably like 2-3 weeks when I saw the signs. I'm like, okay, this was similar to what I'd experienced before, that wasn't good for me.

Yeah, so you leaned into previous experience to know There's no need trying to salvage this situation. It's a hopeless situation.

Exactly.

So, so you mentioned this thing has happened twice, so you can just pick anyone, you know, depending on the one that is most, you know, relevant. But can you just walk us through what was happening? You know, most times when people talk of difficult bosses, it comes in different shapes and forms. Some people outrightly— or some people work with outrightly abusive people. I mean, someone— I've heard of such scenarios. And then some people work with people who never want to, you know, hear your opinion, who shoot down your ideas. And then some other people, just like you, they have no regard for your time, you know. And so it just comes in different shapes, sizes, and forms. So for— but for you, you can just talk about any of the roles depending on the one you want. What was really going on in that role that made you frame that situation as toxic, as difficult, and decide that it's not an ideal place for you?

Okay, so I think, um, just talk about the first one. The first one who I mentioned was when I mentioned that person sent email like Saturday night at 7 minutes.

Yeah, um, yeah, it was—

it first— at first was more of language. It was more— and I think this also played a part in the second one— it was more of like, okay, using insulting words, um, screaming, I mean, and shouting. Like, I mean, that person was sort of an hybrid. I would be in office together and like this person could just walk in and just like scream at me, like, and everything. Sometimes use words that like shouldn't be used.

Hmm.

And the interesting thing was that like it was always so diplomatic. Like, I mean, you know, like when someone is like very, very diplomatic in their choice of words, But yeah, they are very, very, they have been very harsh. They've been very aggressive. And when it became a recurring thing, because I joined the company before this person came in and like no longer after I joined the person, this all started. So those series of things, first of all, the language, dealing with the teams, like how to manage people. Um, not being like, trying to like understand like what is working. Like, yes, someone's perspective. Yeah. People's opinions. But I think above all, it has to do with like the language, the way you speak to the person and all. I would like to just touch on the second one, which was also similar, and I think it was just more of also the language. And this person was like— I remember after my first like call where I had like a rift and like this person talked me down and everything, the whole meeting was dead silent and everything. And when he dropped off, my teammates were like, oh, welcome, welcome. Meaning that that was the code.

Welcome to this weird team dynamics.

So that really, that, that's the culture of the man. And I saw it play a role like in other aspects and everything. I have gone through this before. It was really a tough time for me. I know my worth and I'm not going to go through this again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then that was just, that was just it.

Yeah, yeah. I love what you said about the way the person talks, right? And then I liked what you said about They are diplomatic, but the undertones, you can, you can sense the aggressions in the undertones. And what makes this kind of people, you know, so let me just be plain. It's actually even better someone comes and calls you idiot. You're an idiot, you're a fool. You can see the verbal abuse straight on. Now, there are those that do it, let's say, in a nuanced way. They are not outrightly calling you an idiot, but they are actually being verbally abusive. And the problem is you don't notice it on time. But what happens is those words begin to creep into your psyche. It begins to erode your self-confidence. And what makes this kind of situation very dangerous is you don't even know what's happening because they are not straight. You know, I've actually had a friend who once worked in a place where they called her monkey, and I'm like, why are you in that kind of place?

Wow.

So it's actually better you're in that kind of place, they'll call you a monkey, be like, hold up, I'm done, you walk out, than people who abuse you in the not-so-subtle not so straightforward manner. And you never know, but you notice that one day you wake up, you're not as confident, you're not as outspoken, you're second-guessing yourself. Thank you for that, Amos. I, I love that. Then in our previous conversation, you know, you said something I equally like. You said that the biggest lessons, right, or the biggest lesson you learned in this situation was to believe in yourself Okay, so what I really want to talk about is what's that process of believing in yourself? So I don't know if you're one of these people who are in— who have confidence inborn, but if you aren't, I just want to know what's that process of, you know, getting to that point where you're like, no, I'm— I actually have value, I believe in myself, I don't have to put up with this. So what's just that process where you, you know, arrived at believing in yourself? Yeah, okay, okay.

I think this is going to be very interesting. Um, I'll talk about myself first and probably try to like drop maybe advice also. But for me, like, believing in myself—

we'll get to the advice part later anyway. Yeah, it's one of the questions.

Oh, okay. For me, believing in myself, it's at— I don't want to say inborn, but as being a thing of like I've been practicing from young. And it's a sense of like, I think I was saying something like there are a lot of times I do things that are very scary. I'm going to talk about like public speaking, for example. I should have used that because it shows. Like someone is inviting me, come and get the mic, come and speak on something and everything, and I'm literally like, my heart is literally beating. Like I'm literally like shy, scared, shaky, shaky. But like the craziest thing about it is that like first of all, I'll probably be the one to first volunteer, like, okay, let me come at this in some cases regardless. And I'll still walk, collect it, and probably once I start, because I mean, the whole nervousness and like being shy and everything, so it goes. Dies down. So like, my confidence is more of like, do it afraid. I think that's the best way. So like, over time I've done like a lot of things that like, I mean, if some— if I start talking about them now, you'll be like, oh, these things are wild. I remember when I left like my main job, what I studied in school, to just go all into marketing without having like a feel safe for another job. I just like, this is where I'm going and everything. And I've sort of like been able to like do a lot of things afraid, like take a lot of risks that like over time I'm sort of like, okay, yes, because I've done that, I can now like do this.

Mm-hmm.

And that talks about like, okay, because you have like a track record, I mean, you've, once you've been able to like do things afraid, once you've like built up that confidence, by force. Like, regardless of the fact that you were scared, you did this. That same thing, you won't be scared to do it again.

Hmm.

And then that's what now people now call like, okay, confidence. But like, I mean, because you have done this before, uh, now like sort of brings out the confidence in you and everything. And that was like one of the things I was going to drop. I have a friend that writes like this Substack, he calls it The Pursuit of Better. And in one of like his editions, he talked about like always trying to remind yourself of those good things. I probably would maybe share the link. Always try to remind yourself of like your wins, even if they are little, or jot them down. I don't jot them down or do things like that, but like that sort of hits hard because if you remind yourself like, oh, you've done this before, oh, you went to school for like 4 years, 5 years, and so I mean you survived Nigeria to this point. What, what is there that you can't But yeah, just reminding yourself of those small wins and then doing it afraid. I think that last one, doing it afraid, is what has worked for me like over time. Yeah.

I love that, Imo. You know what I actually really pick? It's almost like having a confidence bank. That's what I interpret from what you've said. It's almost like small, small actions you've taken that kind of, should I say, counts or stores up So that when it comes to taking those— that big major decision, you can look at those small, small actions you've taken in the past and you're like, yeah, I can do this. So I guess what we are— what you're actually trying to say is do small things afraid, right? It can even be maybe you're camera shy, starting a, a TikTok channel where you're on camera.

Podcast.

Yeah, podcast, just like me. I used to be camera shy. Now what you notice is over time, just small, small things. And you know the beauty of doing these things, right? Because there are literally no stakes, or the stakes are literally low. If I say, oh, I'm camera shy, but I decide to release a video podcast every week, there's, there's no— I mean, nothing. There's no risk. But what it also does is in that moment where I need that big confidence to make that leap because I've taken smaller actions. I'll somehow draw from that and make the leap. Um, I really love that. So what did you study that you switched from to marketing?

Oh, I studied civil engineering.

No wonder your newsletter is Engineering for Marketers. I have a feeling you're still in love with that field. That's interesting. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Sorry. Okay, that's really interesting. Very. Okay, so something we— you touched on briefly, but we can just now come back to it. So if someone is in a similar situation right now, and, and this final question is very dear to my heart because I think some weeks ago I wrote something in, in, in on LinkedIn about how I've been having conversations with people now, both people in marketing, people who are not in marketing, people who work in tech and people who do not work in tech. And it was like everyone is unhappy with their jobs. And now I don't mean those tiny unhappiness that you just, you know, those pesky annoyances you have to stand, you know, because everything has a downside. But I mean a deep unhappiness with their jobs. And then, and most people are afraid to leave. And to be honest, I totally get it because here, this is, um, we're in Nigeria, zero safety net. How you, you can't leave your job and file for unemployment. I mean, even that your small job you hate, you're using it to support other people, 2 other people. So you can't just up and leave. So I know how the way our society is constructed, designed, literally just keeps us trapped, right? But let's just assume there is someone who is in the same situation, who's in a highly toxic environment, difficult bosses, you know, in different shapes and forms. Now, what, what would you say to them? Like, based on your experience and how you've navigated this in the past, what are you going to say to this person right now? Yeah, okay, okay.

What am I going to say to this person? So I think, um, there are 2 things actually. Like, there are different kinds— there are 2 different kinds of people. Like, there's someone that probably doesn't have like a lot of responsibilities, that like there might be an illusion for the person thinking that he or she has a responsibility. But like, you find the case that like a lot of like young Nigerians that probably don't even like have anything to lose still like find themselves in this situation. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I think to those set of people, I'll just say like, I would say like, just leave. Like you will find like the, the most important thing is that like, if you leave, what are you doing with your idle time? Like before you get a job, are you trying to like, are you trying to improve yourself? Are you trying to grow yourself? Because I think, uh, more often than not, like they have this illusion that like, yes, because the country is hard, which is true. Um, you shouldn't just leave a job if you don't have another one and everything.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, if you don't have like people depending on you, like actual people depending on you, not the illusion that you probably built for yourself, I would just say like jump the ship and everything. But, but then I think this one will now like fall into like the general category. Um, so I sort of realized that like, so the first issue, the first time I had that issue, I'm going to talk about that. Like I had a mentor, like, and I still have mentors. He's been one of like one of my best mentors. And I think he wanted me to leave. And eventually I left, like that was the first time. And then before you knew it, I got like an IRP. I was like, what's what? Uh, what's what?

Times?

Fully remote.

Oh.

Yeah. That then was hybrid, less of a hybrid. And like, I mean, 3 days a week the transport is gone and everything. And then my mentor was like, you can see that there's better outside. Then he started telling me about life. Yeah, then, then the second time. So like, I think the first one is like, try to have people that you talk to. Like, it helps a lot. Like, anytime I have problems, I have people. Like, there's some people that like, I would just call them. Like, having people to talk to actually helps because you'll be surprised, like, the wisdom or the ways you could find to navigate it. Because if you have responsibilities and it turns out that you have to stay for a while, you'll probably be able to like, okay, find a way to like, okay, while they are staying for like 1 month, 2 months, making an actual plan. for exits, or probably these people will even help you, give you a job, something like that. Then the second, then another thing I learned from like the second time I experienced this issue was that, remember I did say that, um, when I, when I experienced my first issue with the second person, um, they were like, welcome to the company. Like that's the culture of the company.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm not trying to be like harsh or something. But I realized that like those that stayed in that environment did not grow. Like, I'm looking for the best way to put it, but like, it's like they haven't worked on themselves to the extent that if they leave, they'll probably get something better. Or like, they know that like there's way better out there. I mean, there's probably the delusion that like there's nothing better out there, but you realize that because nowadays, if I'm going to like go to a new job, if anytime I'm going to like get I try to research people that work in the company, not just about like trying to get in because the kind of people there would let you know like what kind of company it is, because it will be hard dealing with teammates that have not grown to like, okay, your level and everything. So I think that's something that's very, very important is that like, even if you're not facing any of that situation now, how are you improving yourself currently? How are you growing currently? So that like when things like that come, you can be sure that like, okay, yes, you've done this. You can do this and you'll be able to do this. So, so that's just like something that's very, very important. So like first having people to talk to, having mentorship, having mentors, having friends, then also keep improving yourself. Even if you're not facing that situation now, you have like, it's like when they say, yeah, I mean, I'm not very good at financial investing, but like it makes sense. Like invest your money in something the next few years, they're like, it's going to grow. So you should also like keep investing in yourself. So that when recession happens in this context, in your career or something like that, you know, like it's up there that like, okay, anybody that comes to talk to you knows that, okay, you actually worth something. Can you come and do this for now? Um, probably you're doing it till you find something better. And you know you would find something better because why? You've done the work in yourself. So yeah, that's just it.

Oh my gosh, Emos, this is— you just dropped gems. I wish I could applaud, but this is so powerful, right? I like, you know, at first I was like, In fact, I had to make a note about what you said about having an exit plan. When I was still saying very solid, very solid point, you said something equally powerful, that most times there is a correlation between you've stopped growing and what you're willing to tolerate. Okay, so if you've not been investing in yourself, you've not grown career-wise, you're more than willing to stay stuck out there because again, there's just a correlation between your confidence level And how much you've invested in yourself. If you know you've invested in yourself, you generally feel more confident about yourself. And if you feel more confident about yourself, it's easier to take a bet on yourself. Oh my God, this is so powerful, Amos. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So thank you so much for— I mean, we've come to the end. We're, we're on time, just 20, almost 23 minutes. But thank you so much, Amos, for sharing this, right? You know, when we're talking on WhatsApp, I was like, Amos, don't you want— that was some, some months ago. I was like, Amos, don't you want to help a struggling marketer? But trust me, if someone listened to just this last thing we said right now, it would be of so much benefit to them. So thank you very much, and, um, I hope you'll come back soon, some other time. Have a lovely evening.

I will.

Bye.

Bye. Thank you for having me. You too.

Thank you for listening to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast. I hope today's story gave you something to reflect on or even something to try in your own work. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe, leave a comment, and share it with someone who might find this helpful. See you next time.