How to Build the Right Narrative for Your Organisation

Too many times founders come and I say, who are your competitors? And they say, oh, we don't have any competitors. Too many people are afraid of talking to their customers. Why are you afraid of going to find out if it's viable to them or not? You just want to hire someone to start executing for you. Where does it fit into your goals as an organization? Where does it fit into your processes? How does it support what you're trying to do? Believe so much in your idea because communication and even narrative is about transferring belief. Oh yeah. If that belief doesn't exist, you're going to struggle.

Hi, welcome to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast, where I speak to marketers in the trenches doing the work. In just 20 minutes, you hear the story of one challenge they faced, how they navigated it, and what they learned from it. If you enjoy, please subscribe and share with a friend. Hi Lydia, how are you?

Hi, hi. Yeah, yeah, as you guys see, I'm so happy, so I'm just like, I'm just going to be grinning for a bit until we From ear to ear, that's fine.

Yeah, even me, I'm so happy to have this conversation with you. I know it's going to be illuminating, for lack of a better word. So let's dig in. Okay.

Okay.

So when, when we were prepping for this and, and I asked you what you wanted to talk about, there's this big sounding word you used. You use the phrase, rather phrase, narrative deficit. Okay, and I think it's an interesting way to describe, you know, the problem many founders experience without necessarily having a language for it. So can we break narrative deficit down for those of us who don't really know what it is? So what is it, first of all? Maybe just a definition.

Okay.

And then secondly, what, what does it look like inside a company? Like when you walk into an organization, what are the things you see that point to narrative deficits?

Okay, so, um, so the first thing I'm going— you know, I, I wanted to speak to it in relation to African founders and African companies as well, like African startups especially. I mean, it's the Early Stage Podcast, so I wanted to speak to it in that context, but A narrative deficit, right? The way I describe it is when there is a gap between the value that an organization creates and how that value is perceived and recognized by both its internal and external stakeholders. So it's not just about how maybe your customers recognize you, but, or, you know, understand the value that you deliver or why your work matters.

Mm-hmm.

it's also something you also have to be intentional about watching how it shows up internally within your organization. And then the second part of it, and the reason why my key interest is in narrative deficits as it regards to Africa and also to organizations within the continent or Nigeria even, is especially because when we discuss the narrative deficit, right, it has a macro and micro level. There is the macro level in— that's in a systemic way. And the systemic issue there is that African startups are typically undervalued in the markets. It is very underrepresented, very often overlooked, and also very, um, I like to say under-resourced, but some people will say underfunded. But the reason I say under-resourced is because the resources an organization needs Capital is just one of it. So there are still like other elements of things that an organization needs on the macro level, right? Is the fact that companies here very much struggle to attract funding. They struggle to attract funding. They struggle to be recognized. Like when you look at, for example, someone will tell you that raising seed money, for example, in Nigeria or Africa is very different from if you are raising seed money in America. It's not even the same. Like, if you look at like what the seed money is supposed to be, it's often not even like the same amount that we are looking at. And it's again because of like what the situation is here, right? And what like the ecosystem is. And so there's a lot of work you have to do. So instead of just saying that, oh, I've built this thing, you also now have to do the work of interpreting what that value means to people, to your funders, to people who care about that kind of work. And sometimes they will still not understand it because they do not understand our context. Then internally within an organization, what the narrative deficit looks like can— one of the things I like to talk about a lot is a confidence crisis. That's number one. And what I mean by confidence crisis is externally on that macro level that I'm speaking about is that maybe investors worry about investing money here, or the risk— they don't know if the money will come back. And so because of that, people don't want to invest because they are scared. But it also shows up with founders. Like, you find out that a lot of founders are not very confident about the value that they deliver. So you'll see like someone who has innovated something and he's like, you have built something, this is that, do you realize you have— it's an invention, quote unquote, and you're supposed to treat it like that? But it's like we want to be able to have more and more proof before we can actually say that, oh, we've done something valuable. Like, we have that almost like an inferiority complex, you get? Like, speak more confidently about the work that you're doing. It takes a lot. So you would now see that it's until that founder has maybe been able to say, oh, I've raised money, before they will feel confident. Or they— or when they would say, oh, I've been able—

Yeah.

I've been able to raise, you know, um, generate this kind of revenue. But it doesn't matter if you haven't raised money yet or if you haven't yet generated a certain amount of revenue. if you understand, most importantly, the value of what you're doing. So that narrative—

Yes.

Yeah, what you're building. Yes. So the narrative deficit internally within organizations, what that can look like is one where the founder struggles a lot to explain the value of what they are doing. Maybe they struggle to be able to communicate it. And then they also— but that communication, they also struggle to be able to communicate it to the people that work with them. So where it's like even the people who work with them do not really understand what the overarching vision of that work is. Like, where exactly are we trying to get to? Why does this work we're doing matter? And why does it matter like right now? And then what role do you play in us getting to that place? Which is where like then hiring people and responsibilities come in. So if you're not able to communicate that to them, that shows up as a narrative deficit. And so many things come up as a— which is why like sometimes talking about it can feel like a lot because it's like it affects so many things. It's not just like one singular aspect of the organization. There's the aspect of not being able to, you know, get the right people involved in what you're doing. Is, is the, is the thing of like maybe you have seen different people in different departments are doing different things and it's like, why are you doing it? And you find out that different people have different ideas of what they are supposed to be should be doing or why that work matters. Yeah, I would stop there for now.

Yeah, I like that. I liked, um, how you touched on the consequences it has internally. And I also feel like if you don't even— if you cannot articulate a clear vision of what you're— what you've done and where you still want to go, it's going to be somewhat hard to even attract the top-tier talent that you need to achieve your next milestone. Because I think people who are talented— Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, they just want to have this sense of meaning. I feel like work is beyond just wake up and show up somewhere, and once it's 5 PM you clock out. So they just want to kind of attach meaning to what they do. And if you cannot paint that, you know, vision, it's going to be somewhat hard. But let me just dig into it some more and also get your perspective. I want us to talk a bit more about the consequences of, you know, these deficits. So let's say someone, you know, builds a great product, great company, but again, they can't communicate what they do, who it's for, why it matters. And they've just not built a narrative for their product or organization. What What does it cost? What does it cost them?

So you've already spoken to one of these, which is the struggle to attract top talent. Yeah, right. If you know the number of founders, talent is a— is an issue. So maybe let's start from— because you've also already raised it, talent is an issue. I mean, we just finished having a previous conversation before we even got on this call, right?

Like about finding the right people.

Yeah, like finding the right people and So every time I have a conversation with a founder and they start talking about how difficult it is, one of the things— it's not easy, but I always try to get them to reframe it as like— because something I, I was just saying to someone is that the reason you're a business owner is that if you have a problem, it is your responsibility to solve that problem, because you know that if you don't solve that problem, your business is not going to grow. Like, do you get— so, so if, for example, I'm not finding talent, okay, but why, right? So ask yourself why. And what you said, like, is a really important part of it, because a different way that I would— or a simpler way that I would define, you know, narrative deficits is, is a, a gap in meaning and relevance. Like, if I want to break it down, it's like there is a gap In meaning and in relevance. And what that means is— and relevance, yes. And the meaning aspect of it is like where you're able to create meaning for people in terms of like, this is what we're trying to do and this is how you can be involved in making that possible. Um, people, people really struggle to show— as in, to show people like that this is like, this is the bigger, you know, this is the bigger picture in a sense, like, to what, what I'm trying to do. Yeah. And then being able to show people where they play a role in that. And then the other side of it is then relevance. If you create meaning, but that meaning, that meaning has to be relevant. If it's not relevant to that person, sorry, no matter how great your idea is, yes, they are not going to adopt it. So you need to find a way to translate it to that person to show why it is relevant to them. And not just why it is relevant generally, but why it is relevant now, where it's like you can paint that picture. If you're not doing this, if you're not, um, involved in this, if you're not maybe using this product, or if you don't see the world the way that we see it, look at what that cost can be. And that's one of the ways that— yeah.

It's— it feels like you're saying— it feels like you're saying there's this one narrative, right? But it's like that narrative has to be interpreted differently depending on who you're talking to. So sure, the narrative is one, but what I would say to my customer is different from what I would say to my investor, different from what I would say to my employer, even different from maybe what I would say to the public in case maybe I'm interfacing with the governments and larger society.

Okay, all right. Yeah, so correct, because You know, my, my, uh, firm, yeah, we do narrative and communi— like, we're narrative and communication strategy consultancy. And the reason is that setting your narrative is one part of the work, but then you now have to communicate that narrative. And in communicating it, or, you know, or what I call like activating it, that's bringing it to life to people, there you can use several creative ways. To do that. And that is also where we now bring in like the science of communications or marketing, right? Where it's like, know who your audience is and know what your key messaging for your audience is, because you can't be using the same key messaging for everyone. So yeah, you need— like, our work really is about where it's like helping those companies define what exactly is the narrative that is driving this organization. Like, what is the central worldview. What is our why? What is our reason? Like, why are we doing this? Why are we doing it the way that we are doing it, different from every other person? That is what makes up your narrative. But then when you now start to communicate it, you use creative ways to do that. Yeah.

Great. So let's, let's put it this way. So when you were talking, I just picked out— I think I, I mentioned it when I got in earlier So I— so can you— okay, narrative is one, and then like I said before, which you agreed with, there are now different interpretations or different ways you communicate it to different people depending on who you're talking to. So in your work, who are typically, or who make up the audience, for lack of a better word, the audience that the founder has to, you know, interpret or break down that narrative to? So let's say maybe— so maybe I know we identified employees when we spoke earlier.

Employees.

So the employees, there are the customers. Yeah. So can you just talk a bit about the different groups of people who the founder has to communicate that narrative to? And then what happens when they do not— when they either fail to communicate it to each of this group, or when they fail to effectively communicate it to each of these groups?

Okay, so the— who the founder has to communicate to differs. So it depends on—

Yeah.

What kind of business you're running. It depends on who you serve. It depends on who your stakeholders are. And your stakeholders are people who have both a level of influence and a level of interest. Not just influence, both a level of influence and a level of interest in the work that you're doing. And so your stakeholders. Yeah, it depends, right? But I can group it, and then maybe for each organization it can now, you know, differ. So the first one I would say is the founder themselves. Before you communicate to anybody, the first person is the person who is the visionary. I'm not even joking. I'm like, you, you have to believe so much in your idea because, um, communication and even narrative is about— it's transferring belief. Do you like— you're transferring belief.

Oh yeah.

So if that belief doesn't exist, sorry, you're going to struggle. That's, that's one part. So building— and that is also where that confidence crisis thing that I spoke about comes in. So a lot of the work I've had to do, I realized, is that we do a lot of emotional support for founders. I'm not even going to do like— we Someone told me that I should, you know, start calling myself a therapist for founders, and I would think about it. For founders. And it's like, because you, you realize how much that, you know, the founder— often you're the one who, who, who is going to face the most rejection where your ideas are concerned. You're the one who has to, you know, you feel it when the market doesn't adopt. You feel it the most when investors say no to you. You feel it the most when, you know, you even want to hire talent, but maybe the talent doesn't believe enough, or you don't have enough money. So what are you going to do when you don't have enough money to hire them? So the first person that, that is the stakeholder, or, you know, the most important person here, is the founder. You need to believe deeply in, in your idea. You need to— you really do need to have like a level of conviction. that's, you know, that drives your work. We'll come back what it means to actually make sure your conviction is right, but like you do need to have a level of conviction. And I would say the next person is the buyer or the customer, whoever, um, whoever the company, right, is. Who are you serving? Who do you serve? Who is your customer? Who is the person that this thing that you're trying to do impacts the most? You do need to get their buy-in. So you need to be able to show them that you understand what their problem is, you understand their reality, and that you've thought about that in your process of trying to build this thing for them, that you didn't just go and build it and now come and say take. Like, you have actually taken time to understand what their issues are. Then the next person is, of course, talent— your team. Your team is really, really important. Oh my God, your team is the most important people that you could have. Because I, I always say that building a team is like— think about it like you're, like you're a general that is going to war, and you need to build your battalion, your soldiers who are going to work with you to make this happen. Sorry, if your soldiers are not the right soldiers, you're not going to get there, no matter how like brilliant your ideas are. And no single person is responsible for making like things come true. You do need people. There's nothing that happens that's scale that is about a single person. You need to be able to build a team, right? So building the right team and being able to communicate your vision to your team, get their buy-in, and also resource them, like give them the things that they need to be able to deliver that work, that is like another important aspect. And then there's of course investors. If you are a company like— I mean, not every company is designed to, you know, receive money, venture capital, or, you know, even grants. Or some people prefer to bootstrap, but whoever it is that you need— so that in that case, that means your customers are your investors basically, because they're the ones that are bringing in the money for you to run your business. So you can still think of it that way. Yeah. So the investors too, like, or funders, those people that you need, you know, to be able to resource the work that you're doing, whether it's investors or technical partners, because like I, like I said earlier The, the capital is not the only resource that an organization needs. There is so much else, um, that they need to be able to do their work. And so that needs to be taken into consideration. Um, then also there is the, the— I don't really like to think of the general public because rarely, depending— I think it depends on what kind of work that you're doing, right? But the general public would not always care about your idea. Like, the general public You know, who is the general public? You do get like, who exactly in, in like, who exactly are you trying to reach within the general public? Because it can't be everyone. If you're trying to reach everyone, you're going to run into issues. But of course, on a broader level, you want society to be able to recognize what you're doing, even if it is not reaching them particularly. Um, let me give an example. At Pan-Atlantic, right, when I, when I was at Pan-Atlantic, um, University One of the things Pan Atlantic does is that they did this pro— Pan Atlantic, where the school is, is in Ibeju-Lekki, which is like the, the, um, outskirts of Lagos. It is an area that has underserved communities, and Pan Atlantic is a big school. It is a prestigious school. And one of the things that they do is they do these programs where one day, I think they offer scholarships to people within the community, if I remember correctly. And they also do these educational programs or something that they also offer because maybe those people might not be able to access that level of education otherwise. So in that sense, the community where the school is becomes a stakeholder. So even if they are not going to your school in that sense, but by the reason of that school being situated there, they are kind of contributing to community development and also— I would— let me, you know, leave it at that.

Yeah.

Then there's also regulators. If you're— if your work also involves you having to interface with regulators. So that, that, you know, depends. And so just by explaining what the role of each of these people are, you can see why it matters that you're able to communicate effectively to them. Because if you don't, you can't build relationships with them, you can't, you know, get them on your side, you can't get them to buy into what you're trying to do.

So of all these people I mean, we've mentioned over 4 or 5 people. I know they are all important, but if we just have to say which one has the worst consequence when you don't communicate your— when you don't adequately break down your narrative to them, which one has the worst consequence for the founder? I'm sure they all have their consequences for the founder, but which one do you think is the most?

There, that, that's, that question is, is a bit, um, hard. So what I would say is, right, what I will say is that, so there is something that is called stakeholder mapping, right? And so your stakeholder mapping is one, doing the work of identifying who are the stakeholders. But I would say that the most important stakeholder is always dependent on where the business is at that time.

Mm-hmm.

and what their priorities are. However, if you ask me, I would say that the team— if I must choose one, I would say the team is the most important. And the reason is that the team, they are the ones who have to do the work day to day. Do you get? So your customer might have to only buy something from you once, right? Or your customer, what they are also seeing is the result of the work that your team has done. I believe that they are the most important. And then the people that the work impacts most directly are the next people you need to also, you know, look, look within that range of people as, you know, your stakeholders.

Okay, perfect. So what's the biggest mistake founders— I know you work closely with founders and perhaps occasionally marketers— so what's the biggest mistake you've seen them make around narrative building? I suspect, you know, you've had situations where founders pushed back. You know, I have this personal opinion that sometimes founders are so close or too close to their businesses that they have blind spots. So yeah, yes, and so attached. So I want to understand where the resistance shows up and the misconception Behind it?

Okay, I think I had to think a lot about this particular question. So I would say there are like— it's more than one thing because, because like you see, you know. But I would start with, um, so I— the way I describe our work is narrative positioning, but I really loved when I saw you use narrative building as well because It is the same thing, but I like to use narrative positioning. Yeah, because I'm a marketer, right? Positioning. And also, yeah, yeah, also because— and also because like positioning is a, is a psychological process. When you're doing positioning, you know that you are intentionally trying to shape a perception in someone's mind. You're not just trying to tell them something, you're trying to shape a particular idea in their, in their minds, right? I would say that one, the first mistake that founders do is thinking that, um, that they should leave their narrative to chance, like it's not something that they can control, right? Or it's not something that they can own. So the thing is that there is a narrative that exists about your organization whether you are intentional about it or not. But it is best for you that you are intentional about it from the beginning, because when you're intentional about it from the beginning, it allows you to be much more intentional in how you— in how you do things and how you approach things. So let's say you're building an organization, right? You're building, um, a company, an organization And, um, what drove you to do it is that, okay, so you have this conviction that there is this problem that's— that you believe that it could be solved through the unique approach that you have. Maybe people are solving it in different ways, but then you come in and you say, me too, I have, I have an idea of, of a way that we can do this that is like much better and all that. But your narrative really is about, like I said, it's about your worldview. How do you see the world? So how do you see that problem? So that is what changes. What is your perspective of that problem? And if you have this perspective of your problem, how do you make sure that everything you do as an organization aligns with that? So a, a thing that I always say is that every time an organization has a crisis, right, go and look at what their narrative is, and you'll see that often their crisis is because they have done something that does not align what's good. They say that they are like, in terms of what they say, this is our identity. If you're trying to build an organization that is going to exist for the long term, have an impact, grow, and be sustainable, you don't leave it to the market to decide for you. There is the part of building that conviction between inside of yourself, but then you must translate that conviction into something that other people can see, adopt, and use. So I have situations where one of the founders that was like a big— there is a big effect when I look at, oh, this is my proof of why my, my work is important. I think I've spoken to you about him previously, was someone who built this thing that if the alternative for getting it outside the country would cost you thousands of dollars, and then he has now built a version of it that you just need to pay a very meager sum to do. And you know, the question now becomes, why is it that more people are not aware of this value? Like this thing that you've done, nobody is going to advocate for your work more than you do. Nobody. Nobody in this world. Do you get?

Yeah.

So you have to do that work of— so if people don't understand it, then you do that work. Did you reach out to media firms? Did you reach out to journalists? Did you talk to people? What did you people write? Okay, you didn't reach out to journalists. You as a company, if I go to your website, can I see this wonderful thing you did and what's the impact of this thing that you've done is— I can't see it. So why do you think that other people are just going to like just adopt it just like that and now start celebrating you? That doesn't happen. So I would say that that is the biggest misconception.

Mm-hmm.

But then the other side of that is that or still tied to that is because your, your core narrative as an organization is not really about you. And that's where the second problem comes. It's not really about like, oh, this great thing that we can do. So even though you have that conviction, you have to do the work of translating it where it's like you can show people why it matters to them. And so that's the other part of it.

Yeah.

So the only way you can show people that something matters to them is that you know them so well, you understand their reality so well that you can now say to them, because I understand this problem that you have, I have felt it too, I understand that you have it, and I have built this thing that responds to it. It makes it— it now makes it easier. So that's the, the other, you know, I would say. So, um, yeah, that's— even on the marketers, the other marketers, um, side in terms of narrative building, I would say, is you need to know what's the core narrative of the work that you're doing. So if you don't know, go and hold your founder and ask everybody you need to ask. Like, do you get it? And which is why—

That's true.

It pains me so much that we approach marketing like a tactical versus a strategic role within organization. Every time, every time an organization has a problem, the first thing they do is they want to let go of marketers. Let's fire marketers. Let's fire the communications people.

Yes, let's replace them with agents, you know, with AI agents.

You can just sit down and use AI.

So let's say, um, I'm a founder listening to this and I'm thinking, okay, we don't have a narrative. We actually just need to build one, and maybe the founder doesn't have the budget to bring in a consultant like you just yet. They just want to take a stab at it. So is there a process or a framework, simple beginner framework, that they can use to figure that out on their own?

So I'll do you one better and share the framework that we use at CoCreate. This is my first time sharing it publicly, so yay!

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so I feel honored. Yeah, yeah, it is our first time. Like, it is really— it is my first time, like, sharing it publicly, but it is what we use when we work with our clients. It is what we use, is what— and it is, it is developed from years of experimentation, right? from all the experiences that I've gathered, because it just feels like it makes sense that this is where I landed if you look at like my career and all the things I've done and the different industries. And so what I do is it is something that takes from all those disciplines and then builds like a system around it. And so the first step of it for us, what we call it, is listening. Listening, paying attention. And so the listening for us, what that does, if you bring us in and— But I'm anyone can use this. You can try it out yourself, but the truth is it does require some level of expertise, but you can try at least to get something.

Yeah.

And the, the first part of the listening is that you need to do your market research. Like, you need to have an understanding of your market. Or let me, let me actually, let me take you to the beginning. The beginning is that conviction we are speaking about, which is like the thing that made you as a person decide oh, this is a problem worth solving. So you need to be able to know that intimately, know it deeply, like what is the thing. So sometimes it could be your lived experience. So it might be something that you experienced that made you build that conviction. Sometimes it is something that you've built expertise in. So maybe you've been working in a particular industry and something has just kept bothering you, and it's just like, why can't people see that there is a different way that we could do it? So all of those things are valid. They are all valid forms of like insights in terms of a problem.

Yeah.

After you've done that, like you've articulated it to yourself, I would say that a conviction is a hypothesis, right? Is, is almost like, okay, when, when you decided to start, when you decide to run a company, you're taking a bet on something. You're betting that if I do this thing in this way, it is going to give this kind of solution. And so you have to know what is that thing that makes me believe that this is the best way to do it. Know it for yourself and eventually also be able to communicate it to the people who are going to work with you. That's one part. And when you've done that, then you have to go and test it against the market. Do your market research, right? You can use, um, the PESTLE framework, the whole, um, political, environmental, technology. Look at what is going on in the landscape, what is going on generally in the market. You want to get an understanding of what is going on in the market. You want to get an understanding of your customer, those people— remember that we've discussed people who have high level of interest and high level of influence. So go and talk to them. That listening phase is literally research, like it's so in-depth. And we don't do any work if we don't start from there, because that is where a lot of companies— that their issues are You know, you already know you have a good idea. Okay, but don't stop there. Go and engage people, talk to people, get an understanding of what's going on in the lives of your customers, the people who are working around that ecosystem. That process of speaking to them, what it does for you is that it allows you to gather evidence. Do you get it? It allows you to gather evidence that this conviction that you have, that it is actually like a real thing that people are experiencing. And not just that they're experiencing it, that people are experiencing it so much that they are trying different ways to solve it already because maybe they don't have any solution or they think that that is the best way to go about it. Advancements in technology means that there are multiple ways you can do that. Go and look at reviews on, on websites. Go and look at— do sentiment analysis. Do your research. Basically, just do your research and do it well so that you actually know who is the best person that you're supposed to be like reaching out to. So once we are done with the listening phase, where we are basically like doing— where we are, um, we do like we research in what is going on within the internal and external environment of the organization. That is how we describe it. So we look at what is going on externally, then we also look at what is going on internally. Like, okay, what, what are you guys doing right now? How is the team set up, right? What's, um How are you currently doing your communications? That is, if it's a— if it's— that's if it is a company that is already, you know, existing. Because for some people who come to us, they haven't even launched yet. So the process for that would be different versus like if you're a company that is already existing and operating. But we would do that thorough, like, you know, insight into that. Then we also do competitor research, like look at who are the other people who are doing it. Too many times, too many times founders come and I say, who are your competitors? And say, oh, we don't have any competitors.

So let me tell you why I lead, right? I feel that most of them drink this Kool-Aid, especially if they are software founders. I feel like they drink this Kool-Aid, or maybe probably take out of context these things some man, and I think Peter Thiel has also said about don't pay attention to your competitors. Like, I'm like, bro, you— people see the problem you claim to solve, people are solving it one way or the other. So even if the competitor is not a product similar to yours, best believe people are solving it in some way. Or even they've even resigned. In fact, the first— even if they have resigned themselves to fate, it is still your competitor. So I'm glad that you kind of mentioned this. I just wanted to chip that in because I feel strongly about it.

I think any, any marketer would probably feel strongly about it because you know how frustrating it can be to be like, we are not the only ones. Yeah, we're not the only ones doing this thing. Yeah, yeah. So, um, too many times, like, too many times I'm like Who are you? Especially those— especially the people that are still at idea stage. Like those ones that are still at idea stage, a lot. Like, you know, they are still like, nobody is doing it. No, let's hold on for a minute. Okay, maybe not nobody is doing it. What are people doing? So if people are not doing— you know, nobody else is doing it, okay, but what is the alternative thing that they are doing to solve that problem? And like we discussed, right? Like we spoke about that the time of one of the companies you worked at, and you people found out that the computer was Excel sheets, you know. And so many people don't know. Yeah, so many people don't know. Do you know that your computer is an Excel sheet? Do you know?

Like I worked at a Google Doc or ChatGPT itself.

I worked at a global fintech company, right? This is a global fintech company. It's like, it's in Asia, it's in the US, it's in the UK, it's in, it's in Africa, you know, both West and East. It is a global fintech company.

Yeah.

Do you know what's like the dashboard that we were using internally was? Our growth tracking dashboard was an Excel sheet. As massive as that company was, with over 200 employees at the time across the world, not just, you know, Nigeria. What we were using for our growth tracking was an Excel sheet. And we— as in, it was a religiously kept Excel sheet. Everybody knows that that is where you go and put in your numbers, you know. For me, maybe I report my numbers to the head of my department, they would translate it there. But every— anybody who is like a senior executive, you know that that is where you go and in your numbers. And there is Google Analytics. Of course, you know, in products that there are so many like things that you use to track like, oh, what's going on in your business and all of that. But we will go and collect the, the, the information from all those people, then come and put it back inside the Excel sheets. So, you know, do you— would you know that if you're— if you're called the spreadsheet? Yeah. So if you're coming to sell something, let's say maybe, I don't know, maybe you're coming and you're saying, oh, I want to sell this thing to you. this app that you can use and it will bring all your numbers together. Now 2 things happen. Are we feeling the problem enough that we feel like that Excel sheet is not enough? If everybody still feels like, but it is working, they will not bring out money to pay for it, especially if it's like a very expensive thing.

Yeah.

Until it is something that costs them, which is why like that marketing aspect comes up, like knowing who exactly is this problem costing something. Because for some people It could be costing them, but the cost doesn't matter to them. Like, to them it doesn't matter. Like, it's an inconsequential cost, so they don't see any need to, you know, do something about it, solve it. Yeah. Um, I think I should go back to what I was saying, right? The framework I was talking about. So that's that listening aspect, right? So you do the whole, um, looking at who are your competitors. It's a very elaborate competitive process.

Yeah.

Yeah, the computer is a very elaborate process, but that, that's just a bit of it on that, the listening side. So my advice would be, go and— even if you're a business that is already running and you already have customers, and you are a business that cares about growth, at least every year go and talk to your customers. Because I feel like so many people— so I think too many people are afraid of talking to their customers, and I, and I don't know why. I'm like, why are you afraid of going to ask them is this valuable to you? Like, why, why are you afraid of going to find out if it's valuable to them or not? Are you scared that maybe, maybe it is not actually like valuable?

Let me tell you what I suspect, Lead, right? They would have to— I think, you know, people are afraid of confronting the truth. Perhaps they would hear one truth they would rather not hear, so maybe that's why.

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's like, but is it not better that you know so you know how to prepare your business than— yeah, exactly. And then something hits you out of the way, right? One of the examples I like to give to encourage, like, you know, the founders we work with for us to do— because it is not an easy process getting people to say yes to you, to come and make out time to talk to you. It is not an easy process.

Yeah.

But I encourage them all the time, and that's one of the things we, you know, we'll work with you, we'll develop the questions, we'll do it, but we— you must be involved. You must care about it as much as we do. We're not gonna do it if you don't, like, you know, think it's important. And one of the reasons is that for one of the businesses that, um, we worked with last year, through the process of like— see, it took months to even get her to say, okay, I'm going to go and like, you know, let's, let's find people to, to speak to. But do you know that one of the people we now spoke to, we now found out that one of them who like attended something that they had done And they had— I mean, it's public, so I don't have to like hide it. So one of the customers who had been at their, um, they host like this convening, um, B2B matchmaking events. One of the companies that they did the thing for, they found out that one of the things they had done had generated over ₦1 billion in revenue for the company. Do you get? Like, when the, the startup had come to them, right, they were a startup that were still trying to scale, trying to get more customers. They work in the Francophone. They do— like, what they do is cross-border payment for traders. They focus on traders. So cross-border traders, people who have to come to Nigeria to maybe buy things and export, and, you know, have to pay money to their suppliers and all that, and they were struggling. Like, growth— well, they were really, really struggling with that. And one of those people that they connected them to, the startup had made over ₦1 billion. You know what that means? And you didn't even know because you did not go to ask your customers. Do you get it? You didn't go to talk to them. And another reason why I do it is also because of that confidence crisis thing that I spoke about. But that lack of confidence comes because they are not confident in the value that they create. But when you go and engage your, your customers or engage like even audience, like those who are not yet your customers, you can see the problem. So you can— it's now easier for you to say, this problem that you have, look at how we can help you solve it, which is where value is created. And in the side of like the people who already run a business is that you're able to have that confidence that what you're doing is actually working and it's changing people's lives and businesses as a result of like what you're doing. So yeah, so that's one part of it. But once that whole listening is done, because that's where we are gathering data, right? You're gathering— is building evidence, really. That's where you begin to build evidence. The next step is like we go into the sense-making aspect. And the sense-making aspect is where we are now looking at what are the patterns that we are seeing as a result of like this research that we've done. What are we seeing that are showing up? What are the gaps that are there? For example, is there a narrative that you could own in the markets? Like, how do we frame that narrative? How do we frame your worldview? Do you get that worldview that you have? So maybe you're someone who— I'm trying to build a health tech app. This is, this is almost like a real example, right, of a client. You're trying to build a healthcare app. And but then if we now have a conversation, you know, we're not really going deeper and deeper into the business we realized that the major thing that the business is trying to solve, one, is early access, right? Like getting people to be able to have early access to healthcare, because that can be the difference between getting, um, a solution or diagnosis and getting well and not, because you didn't get like early access to a, a doctor or something to get a diagnosis. But then on the deeper side of it was also realizing maybe by the time we finished doing it, that Access matters, yes, to people, but trust is also important. So there are people who have the money, they can afford great healthcare in Nigeria, but they would not pay just because it's a Nigerian hospital, because they believe that they would get better healthcare if they leave the country. So you now realize that the narrative you're, you're— this thing like your company needs to own needs to be bigger than, oh, I'm going to connect you to just a doctor. You need to be able to say, I can connect you to a doctor that you can trust, that that person is going to give you good healthcare. So you now see like the, the conversation changes, or it becomes bigger than just, oh, if you use my app, you're going to get a doctor. Well, I'm not telling you that. If you use this app, one, you're going to get early access, but it's not just early access to anyone. You're going to get access to healthcare that you can trust because we have verified this doctor. We do verifications, we do both our own verification and third-party verification. So you can see people who have also used their healthcare who are saying, oh, I had a good experience with this hospital or not. So, you know, that's where the sense-making aspect goes in, being able to draw out that kind of insight that gives you an in-depth understanding of the behavior, how the market behaves, how um, you know, your competitors are behaving, you know, how are your, um, your customers, you know, how do they move on a daily or typically, what is going on in their own internal environment, right? What's— what is worrying them? What is motivating them? That's what that sense-making aspect is. And really, by the time we're done, that sense-making is what now informs the strategy. So that is where we do the strategy development process because we have now drawn out the insights and all of that, we now use it to inform, okay, this is the best way for us to position this brand in the market. This is the narrative that you need to own in the market. And that is where that narrative market fit that I talked to you about comes in. So you make sure that what you're saying— again, remember the beginning, the gap, the narrative deficit thing, which is a gap between meaning and relevance. So you make sure that your narrative is meaningful to them and it is relevant to them. So you— that is how you, you're able to answer like those 2 things. So that is how you get narrative market fit, that the story that you're telling them about what they are doing and what they— what change they are going to experience as a result of engaging with you or being involved in this work you are doing in whatever way, whether as a user or as a team member or whatever. Is both meaningful and relevant to them. And then you're now going to embedding. The work doesn't stop there, right? After you've done the strategy, you now go into the embedding. So the embedding is now where we're like, okay, um, one, there is the strategy, right? This is your— this is— this is your marketing. This is— we, depending on the stage of the organization, if they don't have— if they haven't documented their narrative strategy yet, if they've not documented their positioning strategy yet, that means our work often first begins from the brand, like building what is— okay, what is this brand? What is the narrative that your brand is going to own? And what is the positioning that you're— you're— you're— as in, what, what are you going to occupy in the market? And we merge that together. And that's where like the narrative positioning thing comes, comes in. We've decided that this is the narrative that is guiding this organization. And we've also decided that this is who we serve, this is the value that we deliver to this very specific set of people, right? And then also in our identity, how are we going to now get them to know us and trust us? That's where you now start building the brand identity. Like, what is your personality going to be? You know, what's— what's, um, how do you speak as a brand? How do you— what tone of voice do you use when you're like writing What's— what do you not say? That is such an important part of the work that we do with like clients. Like, it's not just what do you say and how. What do you not say? What is the thing that this— this— if you bring this in, it scatters what you say that you are. It scatters like that identity. So you avoid certain words, certain language, and go in a different direction. It's framing, really, right? How do you frame that? And then that is then translated.

Mm-hmm.

into a visual identity. Like, okay, how do you then look? So if we want to be known for this, if we want people to feel this way when, when they get to, you know, engage us, how do we now present like visually? That is when we now get into like the external design part of it. And then, you know, the plan, just basically like, okay, so we're now embedding it. Like we're now making it into a system, into an operating system for the organization.

Mm-hmm.

It's not just a document you're supposed to put somewhere. No, we're saying, you've— you define this and then you now start embedding it into how you work. So that's when all the, um, the parts that people get to see externally, that's where that often comes in. And that is like how you write your website copy, for example, you know, your brand design. When people see you, you're embedding that into the process of the organization, right? And then the next part, like after building those systems, okay, this is our marketing and communication strategy. These are the channels we are going to be using to engage our audience. This is how we are going to be speaking to them. And that is why no strategy is ever the same. No single strategy we develop is the same because it is always based on the context of the organization. So once we do that embedding, then the next part of it is activation. So activation is where the tactical execution then comes in. People jump to activation when they've not done all these other parts. Like, okay, something is going on, let me hire a content creator. Or, oh, something is going on, let me hire a social media manager. Is it a social media manager that you need? Maybe it's not a social media— have you actually solved the problem? That is where that thing we're talking about, about like task-based versus systems thinking. So that's basically where it's like, okay, so you want to, you just want to hire someone to start executing for you, but like, what exactly, where do their work fit in within the system of things that you're trying to build? What, where does it fit into like your goals as an organization? Where does it fit into your processes? How does it support what you're trying to do? All of that needs to be done before you go into activation or doing any communications and all of that. So that is where activation comes. So activation is now where Activation is where the storytelling happens. It is where, like what you said, where it's like you pick, what am I going to be communicating to this audience? What am I going to be communicating to this audience? You know, how are we going to do it? Do we need— do we need to do a campaign? Do we need to do an ebook fund? That is where, like, whatever that is, that is now where, like, the bringing that narrative to life, bringing your positioning to life, bringing the brand to life to become something people engage with and experience. That is what happens in the activation side.

Yeah.

And then the, the final step there is then measurement. So the measurement is now where we always end with measurements because we want to check what has changed, right? Um, what are the results that you've gotten? Whether it is okay, what are your marketing results? What are your brand results? What kind of brand equity do you have? What is the sentiment people have around you? This campaign that we did, what did it help us achieve in terms of what the overarching goal of the organization is? And the truth is that the way this works, narrative positioning is an iterative process. It doesn't— it's not something you do once. Like, you don't— you don't talk about your brand once and then you never talk about it again. So what that measurement does is it's a loop. So you now see that the measurement is, okay, you've got— you've collected the data Then you listen again. So it's listening again. So you're looking at it and you're saying, okay, what, what have we learned from doing this, right? What have we learned from doing it? What can we draw out of it? Which is the sensemaking. Okay, how do we improve the systems we have from this thing that we've, we've, you know, we've done? Whether it is our systems or our communications, how do we improve it? How do we activate it? How do we measure again? Do you get? So it's, it is a round, is a, you know, It's a cyclical, um, process basically, but that is our framework. So yeah, the listen— you do the listening, sense-making, embedding, activation, and then measurements. I'll try to write a measurement so that maybe I'll, I will capture myself better. But like, yes, I will try and do that.

Yeah, and I think it needs an acronym.

Sense-making, Thank you. That is what I love about it. Do you get it? Is— and like, because is it— is, is an approach that is, is a systems thinking approach to solving problems. So you're not just trying to solve the roots of, you know, you're not— sorry, you're not just trying to solve the surface issue. You go to the roots and so—

Problem.

Yeah, this is where the problem is, and then you now build out your solution from there.

For it.

Yeah.

Okay, this is fantastic. So just a quick follow-up, just quick follow-up. So what's the simplest way, the simplest way to know when you've landed on the right, you know, narrative? What makes you say, yes, this is it, this is the right narrative for this company? Just very simple. What's that thing? thing that makes you know, yes, this is it?

It's literally this process that I just spoke about, to be honest. Yeah, and here's what I mean.

So it's like, if it is working— so you're saying if someone follows this process, you would never—

Yes. Oh, it means that, right, if something is failing, you can know where it is failing. That is it. It doesn't mean that as in you won't make a mistake, but you would know like how to improve it if that is the issue. So what I mean is you can know by— because I'm, I, I'm very like data-driven, right? I like to see the numbers. I always want to make sure that whatever I'm doing, I can connect to the business. That really matters. So I look at some of the things we look at. We look at culture, internal alignment within the organization. We look at If our work went in depth, like, so just to provide some context, we don't only do, um, you know, when we do narrative positioning, we approach it from a holistic view. And so that means that sometimes we start with organizations from scratch. Like, we literally start with, from, help organizations design their organizational strategy. Do you get? And even like their, um, Mm-hmm. how they would operate. We help them do that. So if our work is that in-depth, like if part of our work with you is also around like organizational development, which is helping you develop your strategic plan, helping you develop your business model sometimes, you know, and all— if, if that is included, we're going to look at those metrics. But we, we include it because we know that when there is a culture issue, a culture issue is a narrative issue. Go down to the roots, you would see that there is a problem. So you would see it's either you guys have not yet as a team agreed on what drives you as an organization, and sometimes it is the problem of the business. And what I mean is, if you as a business is also saying that this is who we are and the action you are taking is not matching that thing that you say that you are— like, both even in, you know how, like, for example, you could see an organization externally, they do all this great work, but then inside, the people who are working inside the company are crying and wailing and complaining. That is part of what that narrative definitely— it means that there is, there is an incongruence there. And that is always— that's why I'm always like, go back, you would see that every crisis issue, go and you see that someone is— as in, there's something—

Yeah.

It's either the standard you people have communicated has fallen in one way, or you guys are not actually doing what you say that's, you know, that, that you're not doing what you say that you want to do, right? So we would look at like in that way, like how, how easily can people tell what they are supposed to do, right? So whether it is the marketer in your team, so that can be like the marketer in your team in that case, right? Is the strategy working? Um, are they able to use it day to day? Is it informing their day-to-day work? Like how are they using it? Does it help them? So because a lot of like my clients, they will tell me that these, these strategies we develop, they, they have it pinned on their laptop, like they have it pinned all the time on their tab because they refer to it day to day when they are making business decisions, when they are making like messaging decisions, because they go back to those things to remind themselves like this is who we say we are, this is how we want the public to know us, this is the what we want them to associate with us. This is the kind of reputation that we want to have. Then we also measure like, you know, the business outcomes that it is designed for, because every project we do is based on like what's— what is the key objective? Like what is the problem that you're calling us to come and solve? So for every organization it's different. So based on what, what that problem is, if it's like revenue, so we're going to look at has revenue increased, right? Like Are people coming in? How do you know it's working? But let me give you like one example, very like almost mystical, for lack of a better word, example of what that can look like, right?

Yeah.

So one of the companies we worked with last year— so what, what we do as part of our work is that we do an audience profile. So we profile your audience, we profile down, down to like what are they scared of? Like, what is the thing that is driving them intrinsically? Not just like, oh, I want to make more money, but why? Like, if you go deeper, you always know why. So like, I have situations where people would come and they'll be like, oh, our product helps people make money. And I'm like, even though your product helps people make money, they— that won't make them like adopt it because sometimes there is something else that is driving that person. And maybe your product is not their only way of making money, so you have to find a different way to communicate the hack of what you are trying to do. So when we finished doing the audience profiling, one of the first signals that we had that it was working was that the first 4 leads— first of all, they started to have inbound leads, like people inbound, um, uh, signals is a big part of us because it's demand generation. So demand generation means that you want, you want to build awareness amongst the kinds of people that you're trying to target. Would you believe me if I say that we built 4 profiles? Every single person that came in fits to a tee to each of the profiles. Fits to a tee. Like, if you look at the audience profile and look at the people that came in it was exactly the way we profiled them. And that was only possible because we had done the research, we had looked into the company, we had seen, and then we were now able to say these are the best people that this company can serve, which now made it easier than when we now went into like the marketing aspect of it, that we make sure that everything we are doing speaks directly to that person. So that's one of the ways we measure it. Once you're getting— you're having much more qualified leads coming in, like you have people who fit your ideal customer profile, the right investors are reaching out to you, like it's not just anybody, the right talent is coming to you— those are the kinds of things we measure. Like what kinds of people are you attracting as an organization? We also measure like, you know, the sentiments people have around your work. Maybe you will see people talking about the company even where we are not. We'll just come online, maybe we're looking at the data, we see LinkedIn, or somebody has mentioned us somewhere and they're like saying really great things about the company unprompted, right? Nobody was paid any money, nothing, just because they experienced the company and then they were like, oh, that's like, that's exactly the kind of, you know, business I'm looking for. So we measure that, we look at growth We look at, you know, culture. We look at, um, we look at even, you know, your reputation. Reputation is really, really important, right? And we look at also— what else would I say? Would say— I would say alignment, right? Alignment across board, whether it is in your messaging. Like the thing I said, when you even see other people start to adopt the language that maybe because you, you've designed a company verbal and visual identity in a way that is so distinct, you now start seeing other people who are now using that same language. And so there was one, one that happened, and like, you know, it was so funny because we had just finished doing this entire like campaign that period of time, and over like the next one, one month, 3 months, I was seeing people everywhere, you know, like people were using those same things, those same key points. Copying us.

Exactly.

Yeah, it is also That's one of the ways that you show this category leadership. Do you get—

you actually do.

So you start establishing—

Yes.

Category and thought leadership. Do you get? Because people are now adopting the ways that you do things to do their own because they've seen it. Yeah. So those are some of the things we measure. Oh, I know that there are more, but like, these are the ones I can think about right now. Yeah. And so not because like, it's not just because the good thing with bringing in qualified leads is also the sales cycle is so much shorter, right? Like, people come in and they already know your business. They already know. They just now want to clarify that, ah, this problem that I have, you can help me. Maybe, you know, there might be other reasons why people don't go on.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe because of cost or something, who knows. But even in the way we do it is that even your pricing is taken into consideration, because if you have a certain price Then you already know that there is a market of people only who can afford it. So you position towards those people who can, you know, either afford it or can afford to invest in it when they eventually like have it.

Yeah. Oh my, thank you so much.

I just remembered what I just love. Yeah, I just remembered something. Like, there is a thing that I call, um, time to trust. trust, like shortening time to trust. And it's something that I, I—

Yeah.

Like we intentionally try to measure. And it's the same thing, like that same thing I was trying to explain when people come in. So less of, less of like every time you're talking to people, we are trying to prove to them that, oh, I can help you. Less of like defending and explaining and explaining and explaining, you know. So before you even walk into the room you've already built this trust, and like, it's now just for you to just back it up in that, in that moment, or like in how you then, um, execute or solve the problem for that person. Whether it is when they use your product, it should match what you are saying, which is why everything must be aligned.

Hmm, thank you.

I—

this is so—

thank you.

Like, as, as you were speaking, I could just see so many ideas Like, probably I'll just tell you about this later on, but I could literally just visualize a simple tool that can help someone, you know, do this on their own quickly, like some kind of interactive tool.

I want to figure it out. So let's, let's talk about it. Like, really, let's, let's talk about it because I'm very like— so one of the things I've been— a lot of the people who come to me have come to me after they've used AI. They don't come to me like they've already gone and used AI. Yeah, no, it's like, is, is this thing, they, when they come to me, they've already used AI to build their products, they have used AI to do their website, they have used AI to write their website copy, they have even used AI to do design, you know. And I understand because when they now come and I'll say this is what it's going to cost, you know, there is the, ah, maybe I will not use AI, you know. Yeah, but I would just say, you know, I think I, I, you know, now that I've been conducting like research over the last couple of, um, weeks, so I've been talking to a lot of founders, but I've also been talking to our own clients, right? And one of the things our clients said is what I would say, and is that she had already used AI to do this. Like, she had done things, she had done things, but like it wasn't giving. She knew that she— there was a part of her that was doubting what she was getting, right? She had used it to think of how her business wants to be and all. So when she now came and we took her to our process— so one of the things we do is when we are doing those, um, stakeholder research, we try to have the founder in the room with us. Like, come and hear. You won't talk, you won't be the one talking to them directly, but you would sit in and you would listen as well. Like, come speaking to those people. By the time we're like— all those things that maybe like in the beginning I was using my own expertise and experience to be like, no, this is not going to work this way, you're thinking about it, have you thought about it this way? I didn't need to now explain too much because we've entered the meeting and you're hearing people speaking. So, so you, so you now know that, oh my God, I need to rethink how I'm presenting maybe this this brand to the world. So one of the things she said is that bringing that human touch is so important, that— and it is why the non-negotiable aspect of our work is research. And part of that research is not just going online. It's not like— I'm not— I don't even look at some— I don't even look at like what your social media is, the numbers. I don't look at those except if that is a core part of the problem, then we'll diagnose it, right? But we go and talk to people. We're always like, sorry, talk, talk to someone, you know, talk to them, talk to them, hear them. There's— and there is a way. The thing is, there is a way to do the interviews. There is a way to do it so that people are not just telling you, oh, you have such a great idea, and then when you now launch, nobody will buy it, you know, or pay for it. Yeah, but like, talk to people. And what I want to do— and the other part of it is that once you do Once you do your strategy, you can now use it with AI. It becomes easier to now use it with AI because you can train your AI on that information. So it's not just dragging information from places, you are now the one feeding it. Like, you can feed it like, you know, you know how it is. I mean, you are the expert with that one. So, um, building agents.

Yeah, I call it controlling.

Yes. Do you get like— so for example, one of the people we, we hired, like, um, so when we finish our projects, often we help companies hire a marketer if it's like there's someone who has the skill sets you need. So if you need a salesperson, if what you need is a salesperson, we're going to help you hire like a salesperson. If it's, um, you know, a marketing person who has specific kind of expertise, because your company doesn't need everybody with every expertise. Just know the core skills. Yes, we do that. And once we did that, like, when we do it, we then train them. Like, we train them on the strategy. We say— we tell them, like, this is how it works. Now you can now see how to apply it. You can use it to build your ChatGPT, your Claude, whatever. Use it, like, train it with that information, then start using it to apply. But if you don't have that source information, if you are not controlling it, for example, that's why your AI would give you, let's say, the, um, exclusive networking, because everybody thinks that is the best idea. But for your brand and for your audience and for who you're trying to reach, AI is not going to tell you curated matchmaking. It's not going to say that to you. So that is how, like, that is where the human insight, you bring it, you connect it with what these people already know, and then you can now use technology to scale it in, you know, you can use it to do your go-to-market engineering. Like everything that you— when I look at, I, I'm of course, I, I stay on top of new technologies and new tactics and all that that are coming up. And when you look at it, I'm always like, I owe— everything still goes back to the fundamentals. Always go back to the product marketing and the product fundamental— sorry, not product marketing fundamentals. Marketing price, product You know, those, those core things. Every other thing we're now doing is like technology is now helping us have advanced ways of doing it and maybe scaling it. But if you don't do the foundational work, you're just going to be— that's when you have like people who are doing— you're like, oh, why are people not responding? They are not responding because what you're saying, if you're telling someone I'm building an infrastructure, please, how many people on a normal day say infrastructure when they are talking to somebody? Not like— really think about it.

Oh God.

Like, how many people, like, you know, just in conversation just say infrastructure? Like, how many people say, um, I need a distribution infrastructure? Like, how many people do that? So I'm like, you know, so I think that the psychology, the psychology of it is like Like, you go and learn your audience. It's a cheat sheet, do you get? You learn them so much. You learn how they talk, you learn how they describe the problem. Then you literally build your brand to mirror it back to them. So your marketing is mirroring it back to them. You're not telling them something new, it's what they already know. Yeah, like using language that resonates with them. Yeah, so that's Oh, thank you, Lydia.

I just love our conversation so far because it's no fluff and it's highly actionable. Very. In fact, whoever is going to listen to this, I'm sure they would even try to attend their own first.

So they should.

Exactly, that's the word. That's the word.

When people come to me again and maybe they say they cannot work with us, I will send them this podcast. I'll say, please go and listen to this podcast, it can help you, it can support you.

Yeah, thank you so much. I— it's eye-opening. You're welcome. I've learned so much. Yeah, so we have— we've come almost come to the end. We're almost at the end. So let's do our rapid-fire questions. I told you what it is: 3 questions, 20 seconds for each. No overthinking. Okay, so what's the best marketing advice you've ever gotten and who gave it to you?

Yeah, yeah, the best—

yes, best marketing advice you've ever gotten. Yes, and who gave it to you?

The best marketing advice I've ever gotten is to connect my work to the business results like not separate my work from the most important metrics to the business. Because it's very easy when they hire you, they will—

You're explaining.

Especially like if they don't explain. Oh yes, yes, okay, okay, yes, yes, yes. Like I said, so my, my advice is like the best advice I've ever gotten is to connect my work to business results. And unfortunately, it's not something that There is no single person— like, all the best marketers will tell you that, but I had to experience it, you know, to know how real and true that is. And now it is the advice I always give every, like, early stage— oh, and by early stage market, I don't mean someone who is working as an— in an early stage company, but someone who is just coming up. I always tell them that always connect your work back to the business priorities. That's the best advice.

Yeah, yeah, I, I like that. So any marketer, dead or alive, you'd want to shadow for a day?

Yeah. Oh my God, I know, and you probably know.

Okay, who?

I know, you probably know, the, the woman, um, uh, I referred you to. Yeah, yeah.

Right.

Oh my God, yes, yes, forget the funnel. Yes, yes.

Okay, like, she's impressive.

Yeah, I— so I— she and April Dunford, I love both of them, but like, I would do Gia because Gia's work is like more like the kind of work I want to do, and April is more like sales-driven enterprise, enterprise like kind of work. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if I'm pronouncing her name correctly, but yeah, she's—

Me too.

I would love to shadow her.

Yeah, I know her. Yeah, yeah, I listened to her once on, you know, Winter, this B2B research too, you know. They did this, um, they do this, um, online whatever. I don't want to call it a webinar, but yeah, that was the first time I heard her speak and she was impressive. At least I read her newsletter. Then one book, podcast, or person every marketer should be paying attention to right now. Could be a book, could be a podcast, could be a person, but I think every marketer should at least pay attention to it.

Oh my God, there are so many you have trouble picking. Aspire.

Oh my God, but she's not even a marketer. But yes, yes, she is a marketer.

No, no, no, she is a marketer. Go down to her roots, like from where she started from, from where she began, right? Go— if you, if you've read her book Start With Yourself, she literally used to run like an agency that was almost like a marketing agency because their work is about connecting brands to celebrities as well. Like, so that's kind of— okay, that woman is a marketer at heart. But the reason why I would recommend you go to her website is she interviews founders and, you know, people who run businesses. So you get to learn a lot about how people— like, how people are building successful businesses, and you can adapt those tips into how you do your own marketing.

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Lydia. So we've come to the end of our hour-long podcast. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure.

I'm so glad. I'm so glad we got to have this conversation. I am.

Me too.

I'm so glad. Okay.

Yeah, I'll be in touch.

All right. Bye. All right.

Thank you for listening to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast. I hope today's story gave you something to reflect on or even something to try in your own work. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe, leave a comment, and share it with someone who might find this helpful. See you next time.