How to Advocate for Yourself at Work

Hi, welcome to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast, where I speak to marketers in the trenches doing the work. In just 20 minutes, you hear the story of one challenge they faced, how they navigated it, and what they learned from it. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and share with a friend. Okay. Hi, Esther. Yeah, how are you doing? I hope you're doing well. I'm so—

I'm doing—

Yeah, so welcome. Yeah, welcome to the podcast. It's good to speak with you again. So we're going to just get into the topic of the day. I know we've talked about it a bit on WhatsApp, and it's a topic I really love— advocating for yourself. I mean, I can't stop talking about it on— as it's just one topic I can talk about extensively because it's also my lived reality. something I used to struggle with. So I'm sure that there are so many people who are like me, like how I was about 3, 4 years ago, who would listen to this conversation and find something really helpful they can apply to their own lives. So yes, yes. So when we talked earlier, you said, um, okay, let me start this way, right? So just think back to all those scenarios, all those past experiences. When you look through them Is there a moment that comes to mind where you felt like, my, I, nobody's listening to me. These people, they don't value my ideas. I'm actively trying to contribute, add value to this company, to this organization, but they're not listening to me. So can you remember any such experiences where you, you felt like you had something to contribute, right? But no one was paying any attention to you. What was happening? What did it feel like at that point?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh my God, I have, I have so many stories. So one of the places—

Oh yeah, so let's listen to—

let's see.

Okay.

Yeah, so one of the things I have worked for, I, I experienced this where nobody was listening to me. I was the social media and email exec. Nobody was listening to me, right? And at the time, management was like, they want us to be the McDonald's— no, no, not McDonald's, like the Chanel of I don't want to say the industry, but like the Chanel of ABC industry.

Okay, okay.

You don't know Chanel, they put money, right? Like, there's money, right? They're hiring models, they're hiring actors, blah blah blah, right? So I was like, you know what, I'm going to make do with what I have, right? But again, yeah, every time I would bring ideas, it was just shut down. It was such a nasty place to be in because you've done 3 months in a row, 4 months in a row, 6 months in a row, you have nothing to show for it. You're literally just doing what management says I want done. It's like, you know, you're teaching a child how to write, you're holding their hands, right? But then you forget that I'm not a child. Like, so, you know, you can't hold my hand. But then that's what I literally did. Like, my hand was being held, my ideas were being shot down. It was just a crazy time. Like, I was I was coming up with ideas every other day, pitching to my manager, um, and she'd be like, oh, great, and that's it. Like, oh, this is a good idea, and it's shot down. Like, it, it would never come up again. It was just really sad. And I remember telling my dad that, oh, Daddy, all my ideas, and he was like, oh, I should document the ideas, I should keep them, you know, I should send it to the public group chat. Maybe because I'm sending to her personally, that's why she's not taking me seriously.

Sure.

Maybe if I send it to the public group chat, they can know that I am doing work, right? Um, but all of that didn't help, right? It didn't help that I had a leader that couldn't advocate for me, my growth, right? So, you know, um, yeah, so it was a really terrible time. And did you ask me how I was able to maneuver? Because I'm trying to think back at the question that you asked.

No, let me ask something else. If someone finds themselves in a situation where you're continuously trying to speak up, advocate. In fact, and what I even find really interesting, let me just, um, just, um, divert a bit about what you said is I was reading a post from maybe some marketing leader on LinkedIn and they said, yeah, when they hire someone, by the first month, by the second month, they are okay with telling you what to do. They can say, oh, Esther, go plan this thing. But they said by the 3rd month, 4th month, 5th month, I don't want to be telling you what to do anymore. You should be the one coming to me to tell me what you want to do. Yeah. So if you find yourself in a situation where no one is listening, your ideas are always being shot down, what, what do you think someone should do? And then why I'm also bringing this up is we had spoken some time ago and you said something about data. Okay. So how can using data as proof?

Yeah.

So how can someone know, okay, this is probably a situation where I am not doing my research well, I am not vetting my ideas, I'm not backing up my proposals with data? How can you know the difference of, oh, I just need to go back and refine my ideas, or this is just a place that stifles growth? So how can you tell the difference between the two? Yeah, okay.

So, um, how can you tell the difference if it's, oh, are my ideas just not data-driven, or are they stuck in growth? So I would say, um, now when you take this idea and you give it to your manager, right, um, when you give it to your manager, sometimes they are great and like they will give you feedback and be like, oh, that's if you have a good manager. They'll be like, oh, this is a good idea, but they'll find out the errors in the idea and why you can't do the idea.

Yeah.

You know, why they are not really convinced about the idea, right? In cases like that, then you know that already, okay, I need to go and get more data to back up my ideas, right? But in a case where they don't just give you proper feedback, right? Um, or they don't give you feedback, maybe you should take a second look at it and ask yourself, did I make it easy for this person to make a decision about— easy for this person to make a decision about this idea, right? Like, you need to have that honest conversation with yourself. So for example, if you're coming with an idea, right?

Yes.

Like I said, like, data is very essential. So, um, one of the— where I used to work, so we had an incident where our homepage, people were— we had so much traffic on our homepage, but they were not going to other pages, right?

Yeah.

So what that meant, right, to me as a marketing person was they were confused, right? They didn't know which page They needed to go because we didn't have a CTA that led them to the page that matters. We had an issue where we had so much traffic on our homepage and they were not— the people were not going to other pages. And the most important page, the product page, right? And the CTA was make a claim. So I kept asking myself, right, when I saw it, I was like, make a claim. So initially the claim is you, you want like you have a damage, you want them to pay you money for your damage. That's what making a claim is. So I'm like, okay, new people are coming to this website, they don't really make a claim because they are just finding us, right? So we needed to change this to maybe buy a product or something. So, and I knew that I could bring up to my management, or yeah, no, right? I couldn't just go to my manager and say, hey, change this button. I needed to come correct. So what I did was when I noticed, like, I noticed it first month, I noticed it second month, this is not good now that we're having so many people on homepage and they just go. So like, they don't— imagine you're having like over 5,000 on your homepage and then trickles in your other pages. It's, it's bad. Now at least half of that traffic should enter your product page. So what I did was I took a screenshot of all the points, you know, I took a screenshot of my dashboard, all the necessary places, and I wrote a report and I went to my management. And not only did I do that, I, I spotted a problem where I still brought the solution, which was I went to Scally Draw. You can use a prototyping tool. And I drew, like, I, I just put the website, I put the bots in, and I explain the entire flow for them. And that was a very data-driven, like, approach to things that, okay, we can see that, um, we can see that people are coming to our homepage, but they don't know where to go. I know it's easy for you to assume that, oh, and what are they here for? Like, wouldn't they know they will go to product? But just imagine they just heard your name, for example, from somewhere, or they saw your post.

Mm-hmm.

You need to tell them, like, Oh, this is the part. Like, you need to guide them to where you want them to go because yeah, they might go somewhere but might not be the pages that matter. They might say, oh, let me see the people in this place. But you want them to go to where it matters. Like now, if you're funneling them to products, they can then see, ah, they have a school fees plan, they have a this plan, do you get? So I was able to really push the idea that we should change CTA. Imagine, just a CTO, see all the work I had to do to prove to my management that we should change this CTA. Yeah. And it worked. It was the same day, you know, because I came with like all the data points. I showed evidence that this, this, this, this, this, and I made them understand that. Think of it like this: you're coming new to a hotel for the first time, like you've not paid money. They now say, ah, go take your load from the hotel. You said you're like, what load? You know, so I really painted the scenario. I really took them through the data points, and then they agreed, right? So in a case like that, I did my due diligence. So now you might be like, okay, where do I get the data points from, right? Or it might be like, oh, I don't know how to prove that this— like, I've never done it before, it's a new experiment, right? Like, for example, in case of like you want your—

Yeah.

Business to do a podcast, right? Want them to do a podcast, right? You can look at other data points, right? Look at other data points. And as much as possible, when you're bringing ideas, you want to make it as cheap as possible with ideas. Because sometimes one of the reasons people also push back with ideas is that it's too expensive to execute, right? So can you hear me? Because I just got a, a message. So, um, now you want them to do a podcast, you can do research, right? Use other people's results and you can go and say, okay, based on— I looked, I did a research on all the brands in this industry, right? It must not even be in your industry. Like, I saw, um, an HR industry, HR startup. They did a story podcast, right, to sell their app, like a story podcast, like solving a murder mystery. So if you're trying to tell your people that, oh, I think we'll do a podcast, a fun, not necessarily like a chit-chat podcast, but maybe like a competition, you know, you can use those data points and say, when they did this when this brand did this podcast, their followership increased. You know, those are data points that you can use, right? And I also remember one of the things that—

Yeah.

I worked, um, I had told them that we should launch a series. We should launch a series, um, a comic series. And now I know it was gonna cost a lot of money, but what I did was I knew they could afford the money, right? But what I did was I went to PiggyBears. PiggyBears had done a comic series, and they had reported the results that they got from the comic series. So I now told— I then took that report and I said, Piggies demystified something as money, something about money, saving money using this podcast, using this comic, and this is so-so and so results. And that was a, okay, this is based on this data that is existing, we should take a shot at this, make it relatable, you know.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, so those are ways you can present your data points. Now, if you've done all these things and they shut it down and they say, hey, this doesn't, you know, thingy, my dear, just carry your load and go.

But, you know, before you go— I think I would say if you do this— I wanted to add something. If you do this repeatedly, like every time you provide the data and it aligns with the company's brand vision direction and they keep shutting it down, it's most likely a sign that these people are going to stall your growth. So I like what you said. So on one hand, in some scenario or in some cases, you may have your own internal data, use it. But most times when you're proposing new idea, you may not even have that internal data because you've not done it before. So use secondary data to make your point. Okay, I like that. I like that.

Another thing, so let's say as well is Sorry, I forgot this. Again, like I said, it's a question I always ask myself: Have I made it easy for this person to make a decision? So sometimes you need to know the person you're working with. One of the people I worked with, I realized that you needed to give him like story. Don't give him stories. Don't give him this is the problem. This is the solution. Like you need to go fast because the moment you start talking, yeah, hey, hey, hey. you lost him. So that was one thing I realized.

Yeah, did you not?

I'll have my, I'll have my presentation, but he wanted it fast. If not, he will— I will get to the end, he'll be like, yeah, let's, let's, let's circle back. My dear, we will never circle back. You know, also knowing the person that you work with is very important, that this person just wants Yeah, put them like—

Yeah, I like it. Knowing how to— knowing— okay, here's how I'm going to put it. Knowing how to present that information to the person you're trying to convince. So you may have this Manager A, they, they, they lean more into storytelling, so you can do all that storytelling. But Person B just wants the hard numbers, so just pull out the numbers and leave all that storytelling. I like that, I like that. Yeah, so you do your assignments on your idea and also do your assignments on the type of person you're going to be presenting your idea to.

Very important.

Okay. I know we've talked a bit in the past, we're chatting a bit before the podcast started where we're talking about knowing what you want in a job and then speaking to companies too. to know if your interests and theirs align, right? So now, is there like a way, like some kind of framework, some kind of method that someone can use? Maybe someone who wants to change jobs, you know, is this just like a method they can use when they are speaking to companies to know if this is the type of place where I can easily advocate for my ideas and get heard? Or is this the type of place where I'm supposed to shut up, bend down my head, and do the work? Nobody, nobody wants to hear what I think. So is there a way to kind of, you know, separate the wheat from the chaff? Is there a way to identify these innovative companies that welcome new ideas and those that just want you to be a good servant and do the work? Yeah, so any, anything, what do you, what do you think?

So, oh yeah, I was going to say that you're the queen of framework. Like, you are the queen of framework.

Okay, forget it.

You're the queen of room. Yeah. Um, but like, how do you kind of know? How do you filter out like the weeds from the chaff? Like the people that will allow you innovate and the people that will not? Oh my goodness. First of all, you know, is I think you need to really ask I think we need to do this more when we're looking for jobs, asking them what does success look like in this role, like asking them why the department was created, why this role was created. Like, it is so important. I know you are looking for a job. I know that the job description they went to go and it's everything you're looking for. Most people just pull these things off ChatGPT and they will put it. So that's why you need to talk to them during the interview and ask them Why was this role open in the first place? Especially if it's a new role, right? Okay, why did the person leave? Ask them what success looks like, right? These are questions you really need to ask them. Then that's one bit. And as they answer the questions, see, let me tell you, the vague the answer, the more they don't know it, right?

But sometimes they might not know what they are doing, but you know, they might be innovative.

They might be innovative. So you can still— you can have like a scoring them and say, okay, they might not know what they're doing, but you can also tell that the person is open. Now, one of the ways that I, I used to kind of like know if this person is like— if this is a great place is I need to meet one of the C-suites, right? Because those are the decision makers and they carry the culture of the company, right?

Yeah.

From there, like, you can know a micromanager Right? When you talk to a micromanager, you can even ask them, do you micromanage? You know, I remember where I worked, I asked him, I said, do you micromanage? He says, he said, eh, I won't call it micromanaging, but I like things done a certain way. You know, I like things done a certain way. And he goes on to explain, but he's open to ideas and all of that, right? You know, but one question I didn't ask was the purpose of this role, which is the mistake I made then. Or now I know better. So I would say you need to speak with one, or you need to have an interview with one of the C-suites. If you don't have an interview with any of the C-suites, please do not take that job.

You—

the people that hold the culture are the decision makers. Everything flows from top down. Top down. It's very important because when you meet a decision, when you speak to the C-suite, you can— I don't know, I think you can tell a stifling person. Like, you can tell if the person will shut down your ideas by the way they speak to you, by the way they speak about the vision. So I would say those are like my 2 factors, is my 2 things. So I, you know, I would say probe a lot, ask questions. Don't just come to the interview. Remember, it's a 2-way street. You want to be— you are interviewing the company the way they are interviewing you. Do your research on the person, read Twitter trends, Hey, Omo. And another thing is ask questions. Ask people that have been in the business. I remember there was a role that I had asked if I should apply for in a company, and you were like, don't apply, yo, don't apply. So yeah, yeah, it's very important. Look for people in that company and ask questions. Oh my goodness, ask. That bit is very— I know some people might be a little, I don't want to talk But trust me, you'll find people that will talk. You'll find people that will talk, you know. You'll find people that will talk.

Yeah.

And yeah, and just really, yeah, really ask questions. And always ask yourself, like, does this goal of this company align with where I'm going? You know, don't be desperate. I know when you say don't be desperate for money, it feels like I'm talking from a privileged place, right? But see, let me tell you, your mental health, your career trajectory is more important than just money. like, than just give me anything, because you will enter there and you might step down to your ability to work, right? So those are my, I would say, 3 tips. Number 1, um, ask questions. Ask a lot of questions. Number 2, make sure you speak to a C-suite. It's very important. You know them, C-suite, they call it— in where I work, they call the C-suite portion of things a vibe check. The way they are vibe checking you, be vibe checking them. Then number 3 is Ask questions. Yeah, people that have been in the company, do your research. Go to Twitter. See, Twitter is a place where nobody says anybody daddy. Don't write that this company they are mad here.

Like, you know, ask questions.

Yeah. And I don't know about if you have. So I have like a pretty close knit WhatsApp that if I need something, I just put on my status. So you can put on your status and be like, ah, please, I'm looking for someone that works at this place or has worked at this place. And you know, you can ask for a phone call. Some people can just tell you and be like, ah. This place. So I know I'm still here, but I will soon leave. But let me tell you, no pull, let go, you know, right?

Yeah, I like that. Yeah. So Esther, there's something else I want to ask you. Just, it's like 2-in-1 question before we go. So the first is, you've spoken, you know, when I talk about advocating for yourself, it's like a 2-pronged approach or a 2-pronged fork. I don't know the right word to use. So there's one aspect of advocating for yourself, which is continually speaking up, pushing your ideas. And then there's the second part where you don't even speak up, where you don't even share your ideas because you feel they are not good enough. And I feel a lot of women struggle with the latter. I mean, most women don't speak up.

Yeah.

So if there is maybe some young woman early in her career working somewhere and they struggle to even share their idea, you know, so for some people their problem is they their ideas are getting shut down, right? But for some other people, they don't even speak up because they feel my idea is not good enough. I mean, they can literally be in the best company on earth, the most supportive and innovative, innovative companies, and they still wouldn't speak up because they feel their ideas are not good enough. They don't trust themselves. How can they just snap out of that?

Yeah.

How can they find their voice and share their ideas and speak up for their ideas and even push For their ideas?

Yeah, yeah. Um, that's a very good question. I would say have a side project. One of the ways to test your ideas is with a side project, right? So because it's low stakes, it's your, it's your side project, right? So maybe you're scared of talking about your ideas because you feel like it will flop. Oh yeah, test it on something that the stakes are low, which is your thing, right? Like Test it there, right? And if you're fortunate to have like a really great manager, you know, you're fortunate. You can talk to them and tell them that, oh, I struggle with this, because having a great manager is one of— it's the best things, right? You can tell them, oh, I struggle with this, so, so and so. And then you would notice that in meetings they will call you and be like, what do you think about it? So Number one is have a side project. I cannot overestimate the importance of a side project. And you know, you were the one that taught me this. Have a side project, something you are working on. Yeah, I'm not talking about have a side project that has nothing to do with your career, especially if you like— as much— this is for marketers, right? A side project is literally the best thing you could do for yourself to build your confidence, because once you see that it works, you— there's something about doing and the results that give you confidence, right? You know, when people say if you feel like you don't have confidence, start doing, it builds. And I can't even lie, doing builds your confidence up.

Esther, I, I love that. Always, as always, conversations with you are always deep. And I love what you said about side projects. There was something I read several years ago. I don't know how true it is, but people were like, Google in its early days, one of the things they actually did was encourage employees to have side projects. In fact, they actually had a day where employees came to demo and showcase their side projects. I don't know how true this thing is, but the story is that that is actually how Gmail came to be. It was actually a Google employee's side project that everyone loved. It caught fire and they integrated it. So I just, I love what you said about side projects. I love what you said about speaking up. In fact, side projects as way you need to share your ideas. And I like what you said around the structure for sharing your ideas, right? If they push it back, think, did you deliver it in the right way? Did you deliver it in the right way for the right person? And then finally, how to choose the right place to work. Thank you so much, Esther. I've enjoyed our conversation. It's always, always Always a pleasure chatting with you. I hope sometime soon we will come back and do this again.

Me too.

Thank you for listening to the Early Stage Marketer Podcast. I hope today's story gave you something to reflect on or even something to try in your own work. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe, leave a comment, and share it with someone who might find this helpful. See you next time.