Dan & Manda: The Summer, The Season, The Sue

Welcome, friends, to Stories of Freedom, a podcast about discovering and embracing who you are in Christ. On each episode, we'll visit with people who have overcome obstacles, gained freedom, and found abundant life in Christ. These conversations will highlight the goodness of God woven throughout the lives of His people and teach us as His children to appreciate that very same goodness in our own lives. We will journey together, growing to better understand how to live this life free and fruitful in Christ.

Well, thank you, Amanda. It is a joy and pleasure to welcome Sue Huber to Stories of Freedom. Welcome, Sue. It's good to see you today.

Thanks, it's absolutely a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. Thank you for making time in your schedule. We know that you work hard behind the scenes. You do a lot. We'll get into that in just a few minutes, how do you serve with Freedom in Christ, and even hopefully a little bit of why, like what led you to do this, but also just You know, in case we haven't said it before, though I'm sure we have, Sue, you and I have been friends for probably 20 years, right? When you and your hubby Phil first came to Northside Church up in Liverpool, New York, and I was one of the pastors there, and then after close to a year or so, you came on staff and assisted in the music ministry, and it was what, 2 or 3 weeks before our Freedom in Christ Conference with Neil T. Anderson, Rich Miller, and a bunch of staff and board members for a 4-day conference that my assistant, Laurie, said, "Su, you're going to help me and you're going to learn." And it was your introduction to Freedom in Christ, jumping into the deep end of running a conference and getting to listen in on all that was going on. What is your recollection of that time?

Yeah, I was hired on and introduced to Lori because all of the admins kind of worked in an inner office together. We all kind of had our backs to each other as we faced our screens. And, uh, they're like, we're not going to teach you your job yet. It's all hands on deck for this conference. Have you ever heard of Neil T. Anderson? And I was like, nope. I'm like, well, you're going to get to know him. He's coming. So yeah, it was great. It was. Timely and such a work of the Lord. I was able to bring Phil in for the conference and just learning, especially about forgiveness at where we were in our marriage story, which is a previous podcast. Um, that forgiveness piece really, I think, helped us turn a corner in our healing and our marriage. So yeah, so grateful for God's perfect timing in all of that.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Amen. You know, one of the things that comes back to mind as I think about that is I got to drive Neil around for the week. So I'd pick him up at the hotel and drive him to the church. And we actually had him and others over to our house for dinner that Saturday night. And it was a joy to get to know him. But I drove him around in my, let's see, I can't even remember.

The blue car?

No, not the blue car. Not my blue grandma car, as Jen called it, which was the Mercury Grand Marquis that I inherited from grandma. I loved that thing. I mean, just such a smooth ride. Oh, every once in a while I think I could buy one of those 25-year-old cars and drive that around again.

No matter where you're going, you're taking it easy.

Yeah, yeah. I think it was my, I think it was my Mercury Tracer, which was, man, if I'm thinking correctly, it was like a dozen years old, 12, 13 years old by that time. I mean, it was a glorified Ford Escort. And here I am driving Neil T. Anderson around in this Mercury Tracer, tiny little compact car, stick shift. He didn't care. He doesn't need to be driven around in a Lincoln. He's such a down-to-earth guy, so humble. And I just remember one time I ask him to pray for me as we were driving. He just bowed his head right there in the passenger seat and just prayed and just such a humble man. God has used him all over the world, but he's so humble. It's such a model and example for all of us.

So, yeah.

So that was almost 20 years ago now. So, Sue, it's great to see you, great to have you on the podcast.

Thanks. Thanks.

So now we know, besides having Jen on the show, if we really wanted some good stories, we just— we could just get Sue back, right? Like, if I just ask— now I feel like my brain, like there's a whole new tab open that's like, what question could I ask Sue that might open the vault door?

Well, and what I didn't share, what you don't know necessarily, is that then Jen and I, we— there's a wonderful Christian retreat center up in Redfield, New York called the High Braes Refuge. I highly recommend it. Anybody within driving distance of Redfield, New York, check out the High Braes Refuge. Jeff and Tony Andrews are a couple of our good friends. We went up there for years taking youth retreats, doing firewood processing for them. And so after my first failed attempt at taking my family camping during the 4th of July holiday at a state park where I think the people around us drank more than the fish did and And I remember being there at that time.

I don't like, that was a little boy.

I wasn't even there. I don't think you were invited to that camping trip. And, you know, it was culminated by my daughter, my 8-year-old daughter breaking her arm and getting 2 pins in her elbow for her birthday. So we didn't go back to the state park the following year, but we started going to the High Braes, which we had like 250 acres all to ourselves and beautiful woods and streams and trails and everything. And so we would invite family and friends and Phil and Sue and their 4 kids and Jen and I and our 4 kids and a few other couples and their kids. And we, there would be 30 or more of us, mostly kids and teens. And we would just hang out in the woods for 4 days and It was a joy. One of the stories, and again, this, I think the statute of limitations has probably passed.

Good thing we have an edit button. I don't use it. I never use it when you're telling good stories.

We want to protect me and the ministry here. You know, those paper lanterns that you light the little thing underneath, like in what's that movie, Rapunzel? Yeah, and it goes up. And so of course we had purchased some around the time of that Disney movie coming out that our kids had watched. And we thought, oh, won't it be fun to light these and set them off in the big field? Well, it just so happened to be one of the driest summers in the history of New York. And they didn't work like we thought they would, like just float straight up into the sky lazily, beautifully, and burn themselves out in the air. Burn themselves out, totally safe. Oh no. No, literally one just flew right into a tree and started catching things on fire. One of the teenage boys runs over and just grabs the tree and starts shaking it, to which his brother's like, what are you doing? Like, that's just gonna— and all of a sudden, you know, he's thinking it's just gonna fan the flame. And all of a sudden it went out. He's like, oh, that actually worked. But then there was another one that, that went on out of sight. And I'm like, where is that going to light the forest on fire? What is— I mean, I think in the video that Jen was taking, as we're seeing this one like float right up into the trees, you just hear me say, oh dear God, what have we done?

Yep. Oh, this is the best. Was this a trip you were on, Sue?

This is your sister, I believe. Oh no. I don't think I remember that trip.

Y'all haven't started any forest fires together.

So awesome.

You escaped that one, Sue.

That was—

Oh my goodness.

I don't remember lantern lighting, so.

Oh, this is amazing. Oh, I love that so much. My cheeks are hurting a little bit. I'll just poke them a little bit.

But snakes and mice and kids in hammocks and fires, you know, and just the fire sticks and trying not to get poked by those and the dogs. It was just a ton of fun.

Amen.

Anyway.

Amen.

That makes me think of, like, you're describing every good thing I want, except for the fire in the tree, Lord. But in general, you're describing everything I want for my summer, right? Part of our episode is to talk about, you know, summer and the summer plans and what we have going on and who we are as Freedom in Christ and how we view summers and blah, blah, blah, all of that. But also, Lord, if we're just picking some of these things he said, I want those things. But a lot of the things he said, I don't want those things. So if you could sort wheat from chaff there, Lord, in my prayers, I want all the good parts of summer, but none of the forest fire parts.

None of the where did I leave my brain parts.

I've already hit that part of summer, or have you not noticed in just the first few minutes of our call, right?

Are we interviewing Sue here today? Is that what we're talking about?

Well, actually, we're interviewing Sue today. We're also talking about our season, the next 2 episodes this whole month of July, which is when this episode will post. Correct me again, guys, if this is an example of my brain being lost, but this is going to air in July. Both episodes for July will really focus on the season. That we've had so far, the season to come. You know, conversations like that, conversations about our summer, who we are as Freedom in Christ, how we view the summer versus the rest of the year. But also in our first episode, we get to highlight our friend, your friend, Longer. Duh, you already noted that she's better friends with you. I get it. But we're girls, so I kind of trump you. In some just really cool ways. And then in the second half of the month, next, you know, in a couple of weeks, we'll be highlighting Seth, who works with us, who works with y'all very closely and, and be continuing those very conversations. So, yeah, very exciting.

Mm-hmm.

So do you want to highlight like the first 3 people in our season on this episode and the second 3 On the episode with Seth?

That sounds good. We could also just— although if I were to ask you about the season so far, like, yeah, if I were to point us backwards, if we were just even to pivot our chairs, right, and look back, what's the one that sticks out? Like, what's the one that pops up first for you, um, in your mind?

Oh, the two most recent.

Yeah.

I didn't even remember that I was on the list, but—

That is how it goes. So January feels like forever.

A long time ago.

Like, how did we make it this far? Has it been 100 years?

That's right.

So no, I mean, some of what comes to mind immediately is Carrie Barkley and how you know, the intensity of her story, and yet that message that God's powerful atoning sacrifice is sufficient to redeem anyone, and whether abuser or abused in her situation, and the joy that she has found in life, and even thanking God for her life as tumultuous as it was. Was because she knows God's character, his true character now, and has experienced him at work in her life. So that comes to mind. And then of course, uh, your mother, Kim Byrd, who we love, and, and she leads so many people through the Victory Over the Darkness and Bondage Breaker studies, which is a longer, in-depth study than our 10-week course, which is that introduction to our stuff. And Sue has, of course, gotten to work with your mom for many years here. Sue, when we, um, you know, when we talked to Kim, part of what came out in her story was multiple levels of loss along the way, and yet finding peace in her walk with Christ and in the freedom that Jesus has provided. How do see that in your interactions with her as you work with her to lead classes?

Hmm.

Kim has such a tenderness that I think has grown through the multiple levels of loss. You see that in people who have suffered, that they tend to— it's the scripture, right? You use the comfort that you've received to comfort other people. And Um, when she's teaching her, leading her online courses, that tenderness comes out. And God is so faithful in putting— I truly believe he hand selects the people who go into each of the classes. You know, this person needs Kim Bird, this person needs Sue Huber, or whatever it is, right? Because of what they're bringing to the class. And when they come to that class and they find they're in a class with Kimberly, they are going to be ministered to. And it's her compassion and her mercy that's coming out. So many women with deep, deep issues, you know, are there and she's able to minister to them. And I believe when you're able to minister out of that hurt, you also are being ministered in return. And, you know, so as Kim, like, puts that out there and ministers, she's being healed along the way because she's using what the Lord has allowed her to go through. But, um, oh, she's, she's a tremendous gift to the ministry when it comes to that, um, that compassion and mercy and tenderness and being so attuned to the women and even the men who've been in the class who are carrying heavy loads. She can see that and sense that, and the Lord uses her in those situations. Yeah.

Amen. And that That reminds me of her main point. Like, we ask, you know, what do you want people to take away from your story? And she shared that she wanted people to understand the graciousness of God in bringing our issues to the surface, right? How gentle he is with us. And at one point, and again, she's, here we are releasing that during Mother's Day month. She's the mom of Amanda. Who, and Amanda shared in her podcast, the history of abuse as a child when she was abused. And of course, Kim had to process that as a mom, that happened under her roof, right? And so facing into the truth with courage took a lot of strength. Amen. There were consequences in the extended family, but Amanda was, you know, you expressed how thankful you were that mom took that stand, that, that mom and dad said, hey, this is a legal issue. It has to be addressed. There have to be consequences. We have to protect our daughter and others like her. And that was the right thing to do. But then too, as you were, as you were talking about one of the things that you had a conversation with your mom, uh, at one point, I don't even quite remember the subject, but it was a sensitive subject close to her heart, and the Lord had just addressed that with her as she was taking somebody else through the Steps to Freedom the day before, right? And so even though it was a hard conversation for her to have in that moment with you, just because, you know, we talk about these very real heart-level, sometimes very painful situations that we have to process with one another. Under the grace of God, she heard the Lord just say, "Aren't you glad we had this conversation yesterday?" Right? And that allowed her to stay present with you in that conversation and not get reactive, not get defensive, not try and stand up for, "Hey, but I tried my best." You know, no, it was, "Let me just continue to be present in this conversation to the Lord and to my daughter," which was a further healing conversation. For you, if I remember correctly. For sure. Right? And so she really is a joy. Amanda, as we're talking about your mother, any thoughts that come to your mind on that interview and episode?

Yeah, on Carrie and mom's episode, you know, for me, I feel like there's all these extra layers of goodness that are that are particularly— that I have a vantage point to see and taste and, and really be present in, because I, I get the responsibility and the opportunity to produce the show. And not only pre-production, sit with the Lord, try to map things, follow where he leads, engage with people to get that on the front end, and then host with you, get to host and be present with the Lord, need the Lord. Like, all of these are different jobs, actually, right? Be present, be active, be available and aware, all in this. And then I get post-production because I don't know if I do a thing that isn't Thelma and Louise style. I was thinking on that a little bit this morning, my penchant for a Thelma and Louise, okay, let's hold hands and jump, right? And so I'm just gonna keep that conversation still with the Lord a little, you know, but there are so many ways from so many angles that I get the benefit to see from, right? And so with Kari's, you know, we had some feedback from Kari's that was so very personal and strong personal messages that came in that reaffirmed the rightness of our standing to have uncomfortable conversations, standing with people, not producing, right, shows, but genuinely standing with people in the midst of some very uncomfortable and necessary conversations through the testimony of the Lord's goodness in their life. These are the real places that they've been, and not everybody is as free to have those necessary conversations as the Lord has enabled us to be. And that feels like a great honor. In praying ahead, like with Carrie's, I kind of knew in prayer I wanted it to go, that it would be right if it fell beautiful, if it fell during, you know, around Easter, because we're talking about suffering, we're talking about redemption, you know, the redemption from death,, right? And horror, right? It just so happened that in doing that, the Lord let it fall perfectly with like child abuse awareness, like the way it just all fit together. We didn't go to our calendar and make some cultural agenda, like be like, okay, well this month we'll talk about it. It wasn't just that. It's just that the Lord so perfectly times things in their season, that He can put things like that together, because I don't have the bandwidth in my responsibilities to think every good thought about it, right? To have all of it fit. It was beautiful because we shared honestly the tragedy of her story and the glory of the redemption that the Lord has brought to her in this life. That is a truth that will continue to be profitable when told long past us. That's a truth that will hold after we are long gone. And if we think that what we are doing here is something other than that, I think we've missed the mark. That we are seed vaulting the truth. That the goal in all of this is not to promote Freedom in Christ or ourselves, is to have the most truthful. We could— like, how could we possibly share the most truth, most effectual truth with people and then leave it there? And whatever the Lord does with us. So, so like, those are really high and poignant for me. Um, when we get to my mom's— I know that I told you this privately, Dan, um, But when the abuse came out, I was 10. I was halfway through my 4th grade year. And when you start going through the process of seeking justice for the wrong that has been perpetrated, that comes with a great cost and a lot of choices, and you have to keep making choices to pay that cost. It is worth it. It is worth it. The truth is, at 10, I didn't want to go to trial when asked. I didn't. I just wanted this to stop happening, right? I didn't want to go to trial. But I also, even at 10, was asked to sit with the decision outside of myself more than what I want, what is best, what will bring the most good, even if it continues to hurt me, what will actually be the, bring the most good. And, and, and it's not, it's not untrue that saying the truth, it's good for you. It is good. It is good for me to say the truth. Um, But also to keep saying the truth at every level invites often new kinds of pain. To say it, to give your report, right? We're talking about testimonies, to give your eyewitness report. This happened, it was real. To have to keep saying that, to have that tested, right? And then to need, you know, let me say that I noticed in my time sitting with the Lord in the last couple of months in some of these real big, deep, and wide conversations, in being able to produce and be a part of the conversation with my mom, I felt this sense that like all of my life's work is tied up in that. Like it was like this culmination of carrying the truth to the end, right? To the place where it's not that I'll never say that truth again, but I had carried it to the end point with the Lord. And That felt good. It felt good. It felt, uh, it's not everything and it's not nothing kind of thing. It made me feel like, yay, I wonder what I'll be able to see now. I wonder what conversations I'll be able to have now that that's not because you can't just take everything and throw it away. That's not how we're made new. It's a work only the Lord can be in and only the Lord can guide. And so I found myself though in some of the most gut-wrenchingly open places of my life, really being able to see A lot of the good that the Lord had done in me and in the people around me, I could say, "This has been worth it," right? Like, not the abuse is worth it. That's not what I'm saying. The work, the choices, the engagement since then to believe the thing, to continue to believe the Lord and others who cast a vision that there is a way ahead, right? There's a way ahead. And I don't really know what that looks like for anyone else. I'm barely able to like keep that in frame for myself. But I love how what we get to do is is find myself— what I get to do is find myself in a place where I've never been more welcomed to learn to be and live as myself in Christ. And it's the cool— and summer's coming and our schedule drops by half, right? Like, what? Like, I feel like there's this sense like, ah, we made it. We did. We made it and we didn't die, right? Like, Yay! Let's eat and drink and rest. I don't know what anybody else is feeling.

Well, as you're talking about it, it reminds me of just the importance of finding our identity in Christ.

Amen.

And what he has done, right? I think Brian Westphalen, who's been a guest on our podcast in seasons past, you know, part of the way he just summarizes the concept, and I'm curious as to how it strikes you, either one of you. First of all, as women, because sometimes guys can say something and we think it sounds good, and you guys are like, "That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard." That's so cute.

So cute.

Not that you say that, of course, because you have too much respect.

Because we were taught to do good things with our faces.

Right, yeah, yeah. But that idea of You know, he just says that now is part of your story, but it doesn't define who you are.

Amen.

Right? It is part of your story. It is, you know, my faults and failings are part of my story. But as you said, the work of receiving by faith the gift of who Jesus has made us to be through his sacrificial death through restoring us to life and union with him and with the Father, that is the most powerful defining factor in determining who we are. And that trumps anything done to us. That trumps anything I've ever done. And that trumps anything that will happen in the future. That's our identity is primarily as a child of the King of the universe. And then we have all these other identity markers, male and female, right? Even as we sit here, you know, husband, wives, you know, you guys are wives, moms, dad, and now grandpa, you know, and so those are identity markers, those are aspects of our being, but the primary identity marker is our relationship with the Father.

Amen.

Any thoughts on that as I, as I share that in light of even this conversation, right? It's not meant to in any way downplay the significance of what happened, but even the worst things that we can think about in terms of ourselves are covered in Jesus, are taken care of by Jesus, and are trumped by the love of the Father. Any thoughts?

Yeah, I was just thinking how He redeems those times. You know, He can use those times as we allow Him to heal and to grow us and work through us. You know, He's faithful to His own word that says that we grow through those suffering times, that perseverance and character and all of those things. So yeah.

Yeah. And what's the scripture, Dan? It's coming to my mind even as Sue is talking. And the testimony is this, that He who, am I mixing up the scriptures, but that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the end.

Yeah, Philippians 1:6.

Philippians 1, yeah.

Yeah, let's pull that because that's what just came to my mind from when you were talking.

Yeah, and Paul is saying this as he prays for the Philippian church. He says, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now. Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Amen.

Right.

Amen.

Yeah.

I love that. And I love, you know how earlier we were talking about plays and like what would be in our playbook as, 'cause it's hard to describe to people what it is we do. I mean, you're the president of an organization, like there's roles and actual things that we do, but we got here by way of doing something else. We got into these roles by being active in this ministry in other types of ways. And so earlier we were talking about what our freedom in Christ playbook would be, and I would wonder if this is not a playbook of one of us, right, who have been called to minister, because this is— because We live on support, right? Those who are in this meeting right now, we are— Freedom in Christ is a donor-based ministry, and so we felt called by the Lord to start out and let the Lord fund us. Most of us are being funded on the hoof, right? Like, while our boots are on, people are monthly sending in donors and So every 2 weeks we find out what the Lord sent in. That's how our life runs, right? And so, but this is like one of my plays, and I noticed it, Winnie, because you're like, every time I see who sent in, who our donors were this month, I have like an exact list of people who I'm talking to and talking to the Lord about like each month. And so it was really cute. This is a play for us that every time we think of people, We're praying for him. Every time we're thinking of our people, we're praying for them, right? And whenever we're praying for them, we're really invested in seeking the Lord's good for them because we're invested in their lives, right? And that we live in this thing where we want good for people, but we can't achieve that for them. So there is this sense, like with Paul, that we're saying, I think about you often. I love you genuinely. And when I'm thinking about you and bring you before the Father, I'm actually praying for your good. Like, I want good for you. And, and I'm certain of this, wherever I find you, like when we're checking in, wherever I'm finding you on the road, I'm remembering and reminding you that someone started a good work in you, that they will carry on to completion. So I would put this set of scriptures up for a play in our Freedom in Christ playbook. Yeah, just a little callback in conversation.

Yeah, and it's a good, uh, it's a great reminder too. For some reason, I was just thinking of this the other day, and I actually said to a younger man that I've been working with just the last few months, I said, I I don't think you realize, but like the Lord has given me a disproportionate amount of love and care for you and your marriage and your family. Like, and I had to learn it's not a codependent thing. It's not an enmeshed thing. It's a, I care about him. I care about his marriage, the representation of Jesus Christ that that shows to their children that will affect the next generations. I'm like, that's heavy on my heart. And so, yeah, I genuinely, seriously am praying for people who the Lord allows me to partner with in ministry. But the other thing that it makes me think is that because of my 30-some years in full-time ministry and because of having done so much work myself starting to read Victory Over the Darkness and The Bondage Breaker more than 30 years ago now, I can see where— I can see what a person might need to work on. I can see where they need to take thoughts captive, resist the devil, you know, submit to God, resist the devil, take their identity in Christ rather than others. And sometimes, frankly, the fleshly part of me wants to push them faster than God has them ready to do the work, right? And so reminding myself. My confidence is in God is the one who will do the work and bring it to its finish.

Amen.

Not me. I just get to partner with God being available to them for when he has them ready for the next step. So sometimes I can be a little, well, my wife and kids say I've turned freedom in Christ into a verb. And they always they always, if I'm talking to somebody, they're like, "Do you think he's witnessing or freedom in Christing?" And I just can't help sharing it because these are scriptural truths that we know are universal because they work all over the world in every culture with men and women, boys and girls, aged and everybody in between because they're God's principles and they work. And they're for every believer. And leaders, honestly, part of why Neil got into this is he was teaching Scripture in his church, and he was saying, "Why are people not being transformed and strengthened in their witness and growing in their faith and having their character changed to be a more godly man or a more godly woman, a more godly parent?" And these truths make such a difference in our lives. You know, as we were talking earlier, Sue, you mentioned, and maybe this transitions us a little bit into from the season to the summer to Sue. I mean, you mentioned slowing down in the summer and we are a bit, but you know, Sue, you mentioned that we're having a lot more women than men sign up for our courses right now. And you ask the question, are we missing anything in marketing and communications of who we are and what we do, right? Because so many people often think, well, Freedom in Christ is only for those who are hurting or addicted or have been abused. No, no, Freedom in Christ, I mean, those are some of the stories that are like, Oh my goodness, God can do even that? But freedom in Christ is for every believer. And I mean, I grew up in church. I was halfway through seminary when I read these things and I went, ah, now I understand how to live the Christian life day in and day out. Now I know what it means to repent and I know how to do it. And I know in what areas I need to continue to walk in that confession and repentance. But honestly, like, Guys, hear me when I say, and thank God, I just did our fourth kid's wedding last Friday as of when we're recording this, right? All four are married. Praise God. I'm like, I'm—

Woo-hoo!

I joke, I'm done parenting. I'm done parenting. And I'm really not. It just looks different, right? Parenting and grandparenting just looks so different.

Now it really starts, huh?

Yeah, yeah. Now it's multiplying, you know? Not only do I have 4 kids, but I've got 2 sons-in-law, 2 daughters-in-law, 4 grandkids with the one on the way. We count him or her. But, you know, when I read this stuff, even as somebody who was halfway through seminary, my character, my heart was a wreck. And I knew God called me into ministry. I knew that he wanted to use me in the lives of other people to point people to him. But I was torn up inside. I hated myself, actually. Guys, I had sins that caused me to hate myself.

Right, right.

And it wasn't until I brought my thinking into line with the truth of what God says about me, that what he says is more true than what I think, what I feel, what other people have said, how the devil has lied to me, or what I know I've done in the past. What he says is more powerful and more true. And it's freeing to think of ourselves from God's perspective. And then we can be the husbands and the dads and the leaders, the pastors, the men that God has designed us to be when we are walking in our freedom.

Amen.

Not trying to achieve the things that Jesus has already purchased for us at a great price, right? We receive those things by faith and walk in them.

Amen.

And so, men, sign up for our courses. I mean, I'm just gonna call out, it's— it is worth your time. It is worth doing the work. Your, your families, your churches, your community, your workplace will benefit from you being healthier.

Amen.

Yeah, Dan, if I can, if I could add to that, I mean, being married to a pastor, I feel like I can say a couple small things. So good. You know, ministry can be so lonely, you know, and you, you feel that weight of responsibility to shepherd the flock and to answer and to have all the answers. Phil and I were just sitting on the couch behind me. Reading a book yesterday and we're talking about that, that feeling like I gotta, I gotta know all the answers, all the biblical answers, all the life answers, because that's, people are coming to me with that. You know, this is, you know, Phil talking about that and the weight of that. But if you can imagine, and if I could paint a little bit of a picture of what doing an online course or a training with us might look like is not a group of 25 guys coming together and bearing their souls and being embarrassed. It's a small group of maybe 5, 6, not even 6 guys coming together in an online group, the same group week after week in confidentiality, building those relationships. And you share what you feel the Lord wants you to share. Amen. You work through the content, but in the midst of that, you're sharing ministry stories. You're sharpening each other. You're bearing the load with each other. You're praying for each other. It's like a band of brothers really coming alongside and helping each other up when it's hard. Dan, I know you've done Transform several times and been in a hub with some guys and ministry leaders as your guys' pastors and missionaries, as the guys in your group. Groups and just supporting each other and carrying each other along while you're learning the content and, and seeing the refreshment of that. It reminds me of kind of the, um, the opposite effect of taking Sabbath. You're taking time off and not doing work, but yet the Lord refreshes you so much that you actually get more done and he speaks to you so you know how to do it better. You know, it's, it's that weighing out that balance. So I don't know, I, I just, it, it would be, it's so refreshing and, um, so enlightening to, to see the truth, hear the truth, and have people pouring it into you. To be ministered to when you're the one who's always ministering can be such a wonderful gift.

Yeah, there's a, um, there's a thing I want to note on this, which is this idea, having had experience in our classes previously, we had run a bunch of Free to Lead classes and have gone through and had co-ed things where men and women, we were learning as a group. I want to make sure that when we're painting this picture, that we're painting correct the optionality of it, right? Like, you can already have guys that you know you're already bros with, right? Like, you already are connected with. Y'all know you need something. You need to be in something together. You need like a vehicle to be traveling in conversation with the Lord together. That can be together with others. Like, you can have— you can come to a class, register with a friend or two to join another men's group, to join with other men. Uh, you can— and, and if you, if you want that kind of deeper experience together with someone close to you, if you need more anonymity to work through some of your relational troubles and ministry troubles and leadership dilemmas, right? Because we learned that, right? You can also be in groups that are not like you and not like your people, but of the same, uh, level of leadership, right? At the same level of leadership upon which, from which to bounce ideas off of, to learn more things. So there's a lot of different ways. Like, the, the hope and the prayers have always been in these last handful of 5, 7 years of praying, how are we going to, um, bridge the gaps, right? Because we're talking about the— if there's a gap here for men in our communicating what we have to offer. The, the tools themselves are awesome. You don't need to be us or stay with us to use them. You can, you can grab a hold of these tools, take them right back home, take them right back home. It can be personal with you. But also, if you've grown to an age and a maturity level where you realize you're not an island, you're not a kingdom unto yourself, that actually we're being fit together as a living, breathing organism, right? Like that thing, if you realize that that's really what this is about and you don't have that or you need more of that or you have that, but you want that strengthened and you want people, like there are so many options. I think this is a great time, Sue, to really ask you as the leader, could you, number one, locate a Sue? What is your title? Just, just for people, like your actual title, because you are what I would consider pillar supporting the ministry right now. Like there's a lot of responsibility and opportunity surrounding you and the things you're, that you're working in. So why don't you just locate people with who you are, what you kind of do in the ministry. But then I have, I want you to tell us about the the different levels of our— of the offerings we can make. Good.

Okay. Yeah, my current title is the U.S. Director of Equipping because we're— my role has to do with the online courses and trainings. So we're— people who are coming to us looking for learning about freedom and bringing freedom back to their context, we are equipping them to do that, equipping them first to find freedom personally and then share that freedom with the people around them in their circles of influence. So the entry level into our ministry would be the online courses, and right now we offer two different courses. One is the Freedom in Christ course, which is an 11-week course. The way that we run it here in the US is 11, 11-week course, um, doing the Freedom in Christ discipleship Study. The other entry-level course is more geared toward leaders because of the books involved with it, and it's called Transform. And if you've been following the podcast, if I'm correct in the timeline here, Amanda, you may have just listened to a podcast with Dawson Grover, who is our US Director of Transform. And so you probably already heard about that, but it's on our website as well. Transform is an It's actually a 9-month study course right now that covers 3 different studies, Freedom in Christ studies. It's the Freedom in Christ course, the Grace course, and Freed to Lead. And they work through all of those as leaders. And, but again, first finding their own personal freedom. How does this meet the needs of their own soul? And then how can they carry that freedom out into their leadership sphere? So those are the 2 entries. Freedom in Christ Course, and Transform. After you've completed one of those, you can apply to— for further training, especially if you are bringing it back to your context. You can apply for Freedom Ministry Training, and once you're approved for that, it's a 14-week training to learn how to take the Freedom materials back to your context, whether it's a church, an organization, a school, a mission field, and share that freedom message with other people and lead them into freedom, the truths of Scripture, and lead them into freedom. So that is what we have developed and public right now on our website that people can be participating with. In the future, we have a training that's at the editors right now called Advanced Encourager Training, and we're hoping that comes out in January of 2027. And for those of you who are familiar with Freedom in Christ, we have a process called the Steps to Freedom in Christ, And the person who kind of manages that process is called an encourager. Sometimes when we get into this prayer and repentance process, we hit some obstacles that are a little more challenging than the everyday Joe, right? Some things, some abuse or hangups in our background that are just a little more difficult for people to get through. And taking this advanced encourager training will help them know how to navigate some of those complex issues that may come up in a Freedom appointment using the Steps to Freedom in Christ.

Amen. Amen. Any thoughts on that, Dan?

Yeah, I mean, part of what was coming to mind is I know that some people say, "Yeah, but I'm already free," right? And I don't know if any of you have heard people say, you know, something to the effect of, and I've heard people say this, I didn't realize how bound up I was until I prayed through the Steps to Freedom and I experienced even more freedom, right? I didn't realize those hurts and habits and hangups that I was still carrying in my backpack, right? And it was weighing me down. Have the two of you heard of anybody say that sort of thing?

Oh yeah, sure. For sure. Sure.

And say it yourself. I mean, we even talk in one of the episodes, maybe it's in Dawson's, maybe it's in mothers when you ask a question, um, I think to me, and, and my response to you is, you don't know. You know, you don't, you don't always know when you're still perfecting by the flesh that which can only be done by the Spirit. Like, you don't, you don't know how unfree you are until you're liberated, right? Like, just how bound up you were. And so I think that that is common in our times.

Well, and if I may, don't mean to interrupt you, but it does remind me of, you know, when I was a young pastor and I didn't know it, that I was trying to find my identity in my performance as a pastor. Right, I've shared that before, but it just bears repeating that I knew God called me into ministry. I had wrestled that out with him. I knew he designed me for it. He called me to it, but I didn't realize I was still internally relying on, if I can help this person, then I'm a good pastor. And if I'm a good pastor, I can't be a terrible human, right? 'Cause a terrible human can't be a good pastor. I didn't realize that was how I was thinking about reassuring myself that I'm okay. Right? But then becoming free in Christ, I'm okay because of Jesus and I'm in him, right? Based on his work, based on him adopting me, I'm now okay. I'm secure. I've been accepted, right? And he's given me significant work to do. And now I can walk with him and do the same exact things as a pastor, but rely on him and recognize that they have a responsibility as to whether they walk in it or not. Either way, I'm no more or less because I'm in Christ, right? And so it's a totally different heart motivation for doing the ministry.

Amen, amen. Earlier, Dan, you were talking about something, and I'll go back to it now. And, and it reminded me that even this morning when I was out on the dock of the day, right, on my little perch outside spending time with the Lord, I had written down— so, you know, like we all take notes or whatever we're thinking about, right? And the, the note, um, that I wrote this morning, the one note I wrote was, you can't hate yourself or someone else into submission. Some things only come by love. And that is a part of the freedom I didn't know I needed. I didn't know we weren't made better by constantly beating ourselves up, right? Like, I assumed, I thought that's how it was supposed to feel. Like, I thought if you were doing it right, you hated yourself enough, like, just enough to keep keep yourself on your toes. And I can tell you, a lot of the exhaustion, illness I'm dealing with right now comes from just potentially years and years of a lack of love, just genuine love and kindness to myself. And a lot of that is tied up in things I didn't even know I was bound by. I didn't even know that that's why— that's really why I've been slowly killing myself, you know what I mean? Like, getting yourself to the position, to the place where you can't exist like this anymore. This is unsustainable. And it's so sneaky and creeps. It just, it, you know. Well, and Amanda, go, please.

Sorry, what you're saying is exactly a description of how I used to think I needed to motivate myself to do better, to be better as a Christian. I literally, and I've said this privately, I don't know if I've ever said it in this format or publicly, as a teenager and in my 20s, I would glare at myself in the mirror, and I literally would swear at myself and flip the bird at myself, telling myself, "Shape up! Get your act together! You're saved! Why are you sinning so much?" And it wasn't until I rested in the finished work of Jesus, right, that Honestly, it was when I was trying to be better on my own strength. I literally, I cannot overcome my sin on my own, but I was trying, I was holding God at arm's length saying, "Let me try and do this on my own," right? And not realizing that, and that self-hatred, let's just call it what it was, honestly resulted in a lot of anger that then came out toward my wife and my oldest daughter, you know, and thankfully my youngest son, who's now 21, would say, I've never seen my dad lose his temper, right? Which is huge from where I came from because I used to have so much anger inside at the hatred toward myself. But I began to rest in there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. So I can go immediately to the Father and receive the grace and mercy I need to help me in my time of need. He's powerful enough. He is wise enough to help me overcome sin. I can't do it on my own.

Amen.

Right?

And so thinking truth about myself based on what Jesus has done is a game changer. Just, there is no substitute for it.

Amen.

It's the only way to live humbly, right? Because it is even a work of the flesh to hate yourself. It is even pride to center yourself so wide in the picture, right? You know, in self-hatred, that that's all you can see. That itself is pride, and we call it false humility. Or like, like, there's, there's been a lot of levels. We all— because there's something shared. I don't know if you, your people kind of find each other. That's what the science seems to say. Like, people kind of find each other. And it seems to speak that these are common enough realities for all of us. Like, some of these— and it's when we tell our stories truly, when we can build relationships such that we can trust each other enough to say the truth to one another. And to receive that back, that we can— then we can actually get a lay of the land. We're talking— we were talking earlier about like the place for Freedom in Christ and what that would look like and where we are in ministry and what it looks like. Are we even playing the game? Because it feels like we've been working on the stands, right? Like in some of that. But like, there's a lot going on in these yeses to the Lord all the time. And I think Freedom in Christ and the work that we get to do in Freedom in Christ allows the gospel to translate to the ends of our lives in every sphere, like in every language, in every tongue, like in everything we're in. There's a way to live like Christ is really with us, like we're actually united with it, no matter what's happening, you can be set back in the pocket, in the saddle, right, with the Lord, sure of him, even if you're not sure of whatever it is that you will find or that is happening right now. And I, I just think now, guys, there's no other way to live. Like, I don't know that you could get whatever is now released back in whatever box or bottle it was and praise Jesus for it.

Yeah, and we don't want to. And part of one of our plays, and Seth actually says this, and we'll interview him for the next segment.

Thursday, right? In a couple days.

Thursday, yeah. Yeah, but you know, he says that part of what our play is in helping leaders bring this back to their ministry context is it then creates this culture of freedom and a common language that we can remind one another, "Hey, you are not defined by your sin. You're not defined by your failings. You're not defined by what somebody else has done. Remember who you are in Christ. Let's go back to him." And we can be honest about the things that are going on inside. It's part of my story, but it's not, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't condemn me anymore. I'm in Christ. And then again, that, that 1 John 1, I believe it's 7, when we walk in the light, I used to think people will reject me and hate me, but the Apostle John says when we walk in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from our sins. Right? And so having this identity in Christ, knowing the lies of the enemy that seek to steal and kill and destroy by keeping us isolated and self-condemning and trying to get better, achieve it, gain righteousness on our own strength, you know, that when we walk in the light with brothers and sisters in Christ, boy, God brings healing and connection and creates this growth and a healthy culture that just nothing can stop if people are walking in that health. And that's fun to be a part of.

It's liberating. I mean, it really is freeing, and it allows you to run the race with endurance because actually it's meant to be run through.

Through.

Like, the Lord wants you to be able to run through the finish, right? He's not purposely making it— like, he's not sitting up there, like, defiantly trying to keep you from, like, throwing things in, like, Machiavellian, right? Like, he just, just really doesn't care about— that's not it at all, right? Right. Everything can be useful. There are ways that character grows. We know the scripture says it. Suffering is a true part of the Christian experience, and there's no way around it. Jesus suffered, we will suffer. They hated him, they will hate us too, right? But that doesn't mean that you don't have a part to play in it, right? And so might we, uh, see who we are, see who our God is, run headlong into his arms and find our resting place there, and then move from that place into everything, just literally everything else, right?

Yeah. Well, and I think even as you're saying that, I just, I can give you a shout out, Amanda. I mean, because it was, what, close to a month ago now that I was trying to be funny, but I did it in a way that really was very hurtful to you. And it came across as a put down when you were already feeling vulnerable in a certain way. And And you know, it was the following week that we were having our one-on-one meeting about podcasts, and you didn't bring it up in the first 20 or 30 minutes, but then the Lord prompted you, and I was so proud of how you handled yourself in that. You didn't attack me, you didn't criticize me. You had processed your hurt and your pain with the Lord, and then with your hubby, and he listened and cared for you in that so that you were able to say, "Man, when you said such and such, that was really hurtful because I was already feeling this way based on these circumstances." And we had a great conversation. I at least felt like it was great because you took the necessary steps to restore the relationship. I didn't even really— you know what? I was going to say I didn't even realize there was a break, but I did. I shared with you the Lord God had convicted me, and I'm still learning and growing. And when I feel that, ooh, Dan, that wasn't the way to say that, I need to stop right then and say, okay, God's convicting me. I just messed up here, right? I'm sorry. But I was able to apologize. I was able to take responsibility for what I had said, not getting defensive.

And I was able to exercise agency. I was able to speak up for myself. I was able to walk outside of my previous patterns that says the hurts that hurt are only the ones— the hurts that count are only the ones that happen to other people. No, I can be honest. I'm safe enough to be honest. I'm safe enough for the truth to be received from me. And that's not too much. And, uh, and you gave me— and continue, I mean, uh, I said in, in our episode with my mom that really, I know intimately that the only reason that I'm here, right, is because of the Lord and my mother and also my own yes, but the Holy Spirit and the way he has chosen to move me and grow me up and the communities that he's put me in and all the like. I have been given such a gift. Great room, right? Like, he makes me lie down in green pastures. He says, hey, he— here's, here's the field I have for you, Amanda. Here's all the other sheep in this field. Some of them are, you know, your boss sheep, right? But they're still sheep too. And we're all gonna lay together, and we're all gonna move together, and we're all gonna drink water together. And like, there's this— some sense of that, and that it's safe to to be here with him, with y'all, as myself. And I think that's actually what every single person is looking for. I think that is the key. I think that's hidden under all of us. Yeah. Not just those of us who were abused. I think that that is the cry of our soul, right? To be able to grow into that place. And so, yeah, anyway.

Yeah, I think that's powerfully said, very well said. And our courses and our training will help somebody get there so that not only can you receive it for yourself and rest in that, but extend it to others too. Others who are hurting and imperfect and mess up sometimes. And it's that culture of grace and truth. So Sue, any last encouragement as we wrap up here? As you encourage people to consider our courses or our training?

Yeah, I just think one of the main points that you brought up, Dan, was that even you, when you were like in seminary, were realizing this was something you needed. And, um, I had grown up in the church myself, like all my life, and was like, what am I still missing? Why am I still miserable? Why am I still stuck? Stuck here. I, I've married a pastor. I know the word of God. I memorize it. I'm doing all the things, yet I'm stuck. And it wasn't until this, and we say this all the time in different circles, like, I know these verses, but now they make so much more sense. Now this truth is really coming alive in our lives. And, and we're accepting that identity. We're accepting the authority we have in Christ, understanding spiritual warfare and moving forward in prayer and repentance, and it makes all the difference. And it was like, I never imagined I could be as free as I am today, and continuing to grow in my freedom. Of course, we have blind spots that we see, you know, finally see along the way. But yeah, anybody at any level can come in and receive this, and it's going to make a huge difference in your walk with the Amen.

As you're saying that, it just makes me think of it this way. What we do is far more than head knowledge.

Amen.

Right?

Amen. Yeah.

It's intimacy with the Father. Right? It's connection with Jesus and a filling of his Spirit that allows us to, even like you said, Amanda, take responsibility and exercise our agency as ambassadors for Christ.

Absolutely.

In this world. In this spiritual battle that we're in the middle of. We've got responsibility and a job to do, but we don't do it on our own or on our own strength. God is with us, and that's what we do is restore that connection and free it up to be more fluid so that it just flows through us into the lives of others. And we get to do that. We get to serve God together in this ministry.

Amen.

And it's a joy.

Amen.

Amanda, anything as we close Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Dan, for that. I didn't want to miss this, Sue, and I'm just praying that we'll catch your video feed as we continue, and it'll just drop out on that part of the edit on the video. If that is, it doesn't matter. But since you're still here, there was something that came up, and I want to mention this as we're talking about the levels of entry into the ministry and the levels of training opportunities that we have, that we don't just supply training for people, um, to, to just train with us and then leave. We have a, a great sense of growth and fellowship and community that goes beyond their one class. Like, we have opportunities for people to grow up in the ministry just like I did, right? I came to the ministry, I did classes, I got to do all of these things, and then I got to partner with someone to lead a class, and then I got to grow up and be trusted interested in to lead a class for Freedom in Christ in our national classes on my own to practice that. And we would say, as Mother said, and many of the other people we've already interviewed, they would say that we who do this work found that being called into it may have been the most effectual piece for us because it kept us in the material over and over and over again. I say all of this to bring up the point, Sue, that when you're leading our class is like when you're leading the equipping, you're not only putting on classes for people to take, but you're working with people who are growing in their discipleship muscles and in training others. So we have a lot of in-house training opportunities and pathways for them to grow up and partner with us as a ministry also. Isn't that true?

Absolutely true. And that is how we really have gained most of the people who either volunteer with the ministry or serve in the staffing part of it. Where Amanda, you were talking earlier about, um, how we raise support to be able to do this work. Um, so many of the online course leaders are volunteers, but they first came in through the courses, learned about it, gained their freedom. And really fell in love with that message and wanted to serve. We have others who have stuck with us long enough that they actually are like, "Can I please work for you?" Yes, exactly. "I want to give of myself. I love this so much. I'm living it. I'm breathing it. I want to give back. And here's my skill set. How can I serve you?" And they have come on as staff. And yeah, Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm answering the question you were asking, but there are ways that as you are trained up, you're growing in your own freedom, you're sharing that freedom with other people around you, that there are opportunities to stay connected with us as a ministry and also serve on staff at different points.

Amen. And we're looking, if you were looking at the schedule for summer classes coming up and prepping teachers and having teachers fill those classes that are filling? Like, do you have presently— I mean, say we have listeners listening who are already members of FAM, right, For Freedom in Christ, are already connected with us. Are you looking for teachers? Are you sourcing for teachers? Do you need online teachers right now?

Absolutely, absolutely. And you just dropped the word FAM. Okay, so that's— that stands for Freedom Associate Member, and that is if you've done an online course, you've gone through our freedom ministry training, you have the opportunity to stay connected with us at some level of membership. And that can— that'll be detailed out as you get closer to that opportunity. But it just means that you serve us and we serve you and we stay connected as a FAMily. But the acronym stands for Freedom Associate Member. And it's those FAM members that we draw upon to would you like to serve? But I like how you also said called. And earlier in the podcast when Dan was mentioning, you know, why do we serve, I really was thinking about that as you both continued to speak. And I was like, I serve because I was called to serve in this ministry. Amen, amen. And I can't do anything else. Once the Lord calls you to a certain area, that is where you belong, right? And out of obedience, you belong there. There. So, um, yes, that I, I use that, that term and those phrases with my online course leaders all the time. I ask them to pray about opportunities, and then I say, if you feel the Lord calling you to this, I don't want you here as a duty or for any other people-pleasing accolades.

I'm like, good point.

I want you to be called to this because those are the best ones, right? They're obeying, they're doing what the Lord has brought them to. And if you're called He's equipping you for that work. And I truly believe that out of scripture. So yes, um, when this podcast drops, we will be probably opening registration for the fall session of courses. And, um, but we are always open to having conversations with people who feel that calling or feel that leading first toward, hey, I took some courses and I love this and I want I serve? How can I do that? And we have a process of application and interview and training to get you toward that. So yes, absolutely, they can always contact me. My email is actually on the courses and training website pages, and they can take that and run with it.

So great.

And we can also, if you want us to, Sue, we can add it to our show notes for your episode also if you want them to direct connect to you. I'll, I'll add email.

And people can go to ficm, forfreedominchristministries.org, ficm.org, and there's the dropdown tab for what we do, and there's courses and training under there. They can just click right on there and discover those courses and training for themselves.

So, yeah. Amen.

As you were talking about growing in the practice of freedom, it reminded me of the verse that we love to end with, and the verse after it. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free, and Paul continues to go on, stand firm then and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery, right? We talk about the freedom that has been gained must be maintained.

Amen.

Right, we don't wanna fall back into a yoke of slavery, and a great way to do it is to surround yourself with like-minded people who can remind us us. Let's not fall back into that slavery. It is for freedom. Christ has set us free.

Amen.

Sue, thank you for being with us today. Amanda, thank you. God bless you and your work.

Ah, y'all are the best. This was great. I know the Lord has got all the good in it. Even Sue, without your pretty face showing right now, I'm just gonna assume when I go back to edit that it'll just have, not magically, but Holy Spirit-wise, appeared from the ether. Uh, and so yeah, y'all are the best. This is the coolest job ever. And the fact that we get to live these lives together— I know I have told both of you personally because I am that kind of a mushy friend— how proud I am. I mean, I do genuinely feel surrounded by the coolest people I've ever met, right? Um, and I, and I pay a lot of attention So that estimation is not a light one. Yeah, yeah. I've seen, I've met quite a few people. And so for you to be the coolest is a really high bar. And so, yeah, I just love y'all and appreciate y'all. So it's the season, the summer, the Sue, right? You are the Sue, the Sue we're talking about.

And if I just magically disappear from the podcast, you just have to put up some great picture and just have the mouth moving.

Oh, I'm gonna learn new skills over the summer.

An AI Sue. Yeah, that'll be great. I love it.

And she's gonna dance the whole time.

Oh yeah, for sure. The inner Sue.

Okay, all right, I'll talk to y'all later before this gets terrible. Thanks for listening to this episode of Stories of Freedom. If these conversations have blessed you and you want to partner in the work that we're doing, we would love that. Freedom in Christ is a donor-based ministry, and so we need people to feel led by the Lord to join us in the work he has us doing. Could that be you? Go to ficm.org/give to see and find out.