Josh Shaarda: Debrief with an International Man of Ministry (Part 1 of 2)

Welcome, friends, to Stories of Freedom, a podcast about discovering and embracing who you are in Christ. On each episode, we'll visit with people who have overcome obstacles, gained freedom, and found abundant life in Christ. These conversations will highlight the goodness of God woven throughout the lives of His people and teach us as His children to appreciate that very same goodness in our own lives. We will journey together, growing to better understand how to live this life free and fruitful in Christ.

Well, let's pray. Father, we thank you. You are the Lord of life and light and love and laughter. And God, thanks for our families. Thanks for this ministry. Thank you for Josh and Amanda that we get to have a conversation this morning about Marriage and the new marriage course, what you're doing in the ministry, even internationally. Lord, we submit ourselves to you. We consecrate ourselves and all this equipment to you for your use. We submit ourselves to you, Jesus, and we resist the enemy and command that he flee from our presence.

Amen.

He's got no place here. We're your children. This is your time, your equipment. We are your servants. And yeah, Lord, so we just pray for our connections, our conversation, and Lord, the impact on people's lives, very real lives, marriages, challenges at home. Lord, the world, the flesh, and the devil try and tear down and destroy people in marriages all the time, and yet you designed it for such a glorious reflection of who you are and how good you are. And so we pray that you would help us as we talk about that this morning. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

Amen.

Well, welcome to Stories of Freedom. Today we have Josh Sharda back with us. Josh, it is great to have you Back on Stories of Freedom. Welcome.

Thank you. Glad to be with both of you.

Amen.

Hard to believe that it was 2 and a half years ago that we had you and Mandy on to share your story of freedom, how you had come to freedom through some Bible college experiences and then going onto the field in Africa in a very remote village. How God has preserved that work there and advanced it even, but then how the Lord took you to Uganda. You officially got connected with Freedom in Christ and some of the things the Lord has done in Uganda through your ministry. But now you are the head of New Discipleship Resources for Freedom in Christ International, and you are the deputy director for Freedom in Christ International, which means that when Steve out of pocket, you're the man in charge. And so there have been some developments, and we look forward to hearing about you and the work of God in Africa, Uganda, and through the New Resources work. So thank you for all that you're doing.

Fantastic. Appreciate the invitation and really excited about what God is doing. Yeah, he's amazing, and I hope today he receives a lot of glory.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, I know that foremost on my mind is the marriage course because we were just corresponding about it yesterday. Amanda and I have participated in recording some of the devotionals that were written for the YouVersion Bible app, which is an aspect of the marriage course. But why don't you tell us, just jump on in and tell us a little bit about the marriage course, and we'll go from there.

Yeah, thanks. The marriage course was kind of the topic a little bit 2 and a half years ago as well, and it's been a labor of endurance rooted in love, but it's taken much longer than we anticipated. When we began, actually now 6 years ago, we Wow. I set out with a team of people to try to create it, you know, an all-in-one marriage resource so that if somebody hadn't gone through any other marriage course, it would tell them all that they need to know, all that the Bible says about marriage. And it wasn't long and that proved to be an impossible task. It's just too big of a goal. And so Steve Goss really challenged me, just focus specifically on the Freedom in Christ message and what is unique about that message, what's distinctive about that message, and how that applies to marriage. And so that's what we ended up doing. And I think, yeah, I think it's an incredibly powerful message starting out with, you know, we love our identity in Christ aspect of the Freedom in Christ message, but the marriage course tries to drive home the fact that it doesn't apply just to you, it applies to your spouse as well. And yeah, it's amazing, you know, like you said earlier.

Yeah.

Yeah, what's one of the most helpful insights that has struck you in thinking not just about yourself as created in God's image, somebody for whom Jesus has died, and now a new creation in Christ, Having a new identity centered in him. How has that impacted you thinking about your wife in that way?

Yeah. Um, I think maybe it's partly maturity, but it's partly the renewing of the mind as well. Um, when, when we're dealing with something, planning something, I think I have good ideas, of course, and it's human that we love our own ideas, but then Mandy will bring a a loving critique of it or, you know, a very different opinion. And in the past, I would have become very defensive very quickly and felt like that's an attack. In reality, it wasn't, you know, she was just giving her opinion. And so, um, I, I think it's, we've tried to portray this in the marriage course, but, um, She's, yeah, it's helped me recognize the value of what she's bringing to the table. It's helped me appreciate her opinions, though they're different than mine, her giftings, though they're different than mine. And yeah, my wife has the gift of discernment. We've come to recognize I'm a very logical person. And so sometimes those 2 things collide.

Mm-hmm.

You know, she'll tell me something. I just think this, and I can't really tell you why. And I used to be very dismissive of that. But over the last 10 years, I've grown to really appreciate that. And it's, yeah, it's helped me, I think, be much less defensive and much more open to what my wife is contributing. And it's had very good results in our marriage, but also, you know, in ministry and in situations with our kids and with, you know, church and other things because she's seen things 18 months before I see them. You know, she can't explain them, but she recognizes them. And so seeing her according to her identity in Christ with all that entails, the gifting, you know, and yeah, it's made us a better team.

Amen. It sounds like it's added a lot of freedom. And I know we are Freedom in Christ, so we talk about freedom a lot, but as I'm listening to you and I'm thinking because we're only 20 years in, Valiant and I married only 20 years in. So, but that sense of being able to appreciate the otherness of the spouse as necessary, not only different, but also necessary in true love, right?

Yeah.

It adds such an air, a breath of air to a marriage. So as you were talking, I was thinking the freedom to breathe and be, right, themselves together as one. And so I, um, yeah, I applaud, I just, even that first concept, it's so beautiful.

Yeah. Freedom brings joy. You know, I mean, that's the reality that when you're walking in freedom, there's a joy there that is so different than earthly happiness, but it's, it's so deep and rich. And that actually, that comes out in the second lesson of the marriage course. God's designed for marriage. He didn't create someone for Adam who was exactly like Adam. He created a complement, you know, somebody that fit where Adam had gaps, where he had weaknesses, where he needed to be grown, you know. And so we try to communicate that idea in the marriage course as well. And that's a concept that I've grown to appreciate. Much more over the last 27 years of marriage, but especially over the last 10 years.

Amen.

Amen.

And one of the things that makes me think about is that union, that oneness, that— sorry, it just makes me think of a marriage course years ago that actually Joe and Lori Matthews were in, some of our Freedom in Christ national leaders and our care ministers. Within the organization, we were we were watching a I think it was an American Association of Christian Counseling video course on marriage, like literally on a VHS. Well, you know, take Josh and all his coolness, and then just reverse that and put a guy in a tweed suit with wire-rimmed spectacles, and he's talking about sexual union in marriage and how there was first there was the I, the individual, and then there becomes the we. And so we go from this I-ness. to this weenus. And he kept talking about the weenus and the Matthews and I literally like could not look at each other. This is, we were just racking up.

I won't recover. I won't recover. This is, I'm dead. I'm dead. This is it.

That's everything that's out of my hands. It's actually, isn't it? The skin on your elbow. But, but.

For what it's worth, there's no weenus in the marriage course.

But then there's this emotion of unity.

Best thing I've heard all day.

Thank the Lord. Oh my gosh. We're free of the worry of that coming through. That is so funny.

That is so funny.

Sorry, I digress.

That's not getting cut, friend. I'm just throwing all my relational capital in on keeping that clip. Perfect.

I knew as soon as I started saying it, I'm like, I'm just giving Amanda fodder for—

That's ammunition.

Fuel for the fire. But that idea that, you know, when God talks about the unity that comes in marriage, it's not just physical that he's talking about. And it's not just sexual. There's this real complementary strengths, gifts, abilities, insights. And we need one another. And it really, the other side of that is that it really grows us. And for me, it brought out my fleshly tendencies of wanting to be right, of finding my identity in being right, having the right answers, you know, coming out on top in an argument, those kinds of things. And so, you know, we go from that identity in Christ, both individually and then together as a couple. to how it reveals the world and the flesh and the devil in marriage. I have a little bit more that I'm thinking about that, but talk about that, Josh.

Yeah, I really appreciated the presenters on the marriage course because they were very open, a little bit raw, their own struggles, their own limitations, hard lessons that they had learned, hard issues they had had to work through. And yeah, you know, one of the couples, Henry and Adriana, said, you know, we loved each other with all we had, but that was the problem. We didn't have the Lord in our life. And it led to lots of hurt and lots of struggle. And they were very honest about that. And then also about how to get to a place they are today where it's really pretty easy to love each other. And there's just great joy and freedom in that. And, um, Garvin and his wife shared similar stories. And just, you know, these, these are very real couples facing real situations, but then they got to know God's truth and decided we're going to live God's truth in our marriage, and it has transformed their marriage. And so, and it's, it's much more than just a biblical intellectual presentation of biblical truth. It is a, a very personal story of how God's truth has impacted. the lives of us couples that presented. And I'm really excited for other people to be able to see it very, very soon.

I want to go back to your time there. Y'all were writing the course. You were on the writing team for the course. What did that look like? So you're saying it's been— y'all came on, it's been 6 years since even the ideas started forming between you and the Lord?

Yeah, it's actually been 15 years since the idea came in Freedom in Christ. 2011, Freedom in Christ made its first attempt at a marriage course. And for many, many, a decade, many years, it just didn't progress. And Steve Goss will testify, he's never experienced that with any course they've tried to put together. In hindsight, I think it's spiritual opposition. I think Steve would agree that that's what it is. had done, adapted one of Neil's books here in Uganda to create a little marriage course. And so I just kept encouraging Steve, don't let the idea die. This is really important. I really firmly believe marriage is the most basic building block in society.

Amen.

And it doesn't matter how big your discipleship is in church. If marriages are struggling and hurting and broken, your church will be struggling and hurting and broken as well. And so I just kept telling Steve, You need to, this needs to happen. And then, yeah, 2020, he looked back at me and said, Josh, you're the most passionate person in the ministry about this because you keep bringing it up. Why don't you give it a try? And so there were 5 of us on the original team. And yeah, it was a journey. It was a long journey. And, you know, like I said, we started out with too big of an ambition. We continually had to hone it down, hone it down, and just focus on the Freedom in Christ distinctives. We did a pilot run probably 3 years ago, I'm guessing. We had 8 sets of lessons done, and so we did it on Zoom and people gave feedback and that showed other areas where we still need to hone it down. But I'm really excited about the final product and the message that it brings because it is very biblical. We intentionally tried to exclude cultural anecdotes and assumptions about marriage and just get back to what does the Bible say about marriage, and then join that with the Freedom in Christ distinctives and put those 2 together and apply it in a way that any couple can receive it, embrace it, and live it out. And when they do, it will, it will bring freedom and with that joy and oneness to their marriage.

Amen.

Amen. Let me say that again. It will bring freedom and oneness, not weenus, Dan, to their marriage.

Best day of the year.

Just in case the other part applied, you know, stays in, I had to add that.

I don't know what anybody else is doing, but we're having a good day, folks. This is great.

I love it.

Oh, that's so much fun.

Provide the fodder for that.

Yeah, you did kind of do it to yourself.

I did.

I did.

That's usually what happens. We didn't even have to ask him. He just volunteered.

Oh, he did. It's gotten— I've worn him down. Like, you're seeing the effects of some really subtle mind stuff here. Like, I've just gotten him a little more prepped and a little more prepped each time. He just gives a little more. That's so cute. Okay, so tell us, I'm vastly interested about a million things. I have a million different, like, writer questions and all of this. But since you've kind of brought it to where it is now, we had the presenters, we have presenters because the marriage course is a video course, right?

It's gonna be simple.

Tell us some of the practical, like, aspects. How is it broken apart? Like, what is going to be the offerings in it? Those kinds of things.

Yeah, it's an 8-session course, and each session is similar to the Freedom in Christ course. There are 3 parts. We have 3 couples that do presenting, so each couple does one of the 3 parts each session, about 10 minutes per portion. There's not a testimony in every part, but there is at least one testimony in every session, different couples around the world sharing a testimony related to the teaching of that session. There's going to be a leader's guide. There's going to be a Participant's Guide, a set of devotionals that goes with it. And yeah, as I mentioned that, thanks to both of you for helping out with the audio recordings of those devotionals. But I think what makes this unique is that the pause for thought questions, there's 2 sets of questions, actually 3 sets of questions. One is there that a small group could discuss as a group, but we really encourage that that set of questions not be used. If space allows it at all, there's a set of questions for a couple to discuss, just the husband and wife, and by doing that, they will be able to have really greater benefit from the marriage course than if they just just discuss kind of general questions as a group. And we also recognize that there are marriages where one spouse travels, one spouse doesn't want to try. And so there's a third set of questions for a spouse who's present at the Bible study without their spouse. And so they're very specific as well, similar to what the couple would discuss. Um, but it's, they're just, you know, for an individual and applied to how can I respond to this situation? And then after the third portion of teaching, uh, at the end of the session, instead of another pause for thought, there's a prayer action plan. So it, it's just got a couple basic questions to consider. Um, what is there worth celebrating in my marriage?

Yeah.

What is one biblical truth or, you know, one thing? It may not be a verse, but a truth that God has helped me see about my marriage today. And it can be positive or it could be something that we need to work on. And then what is the one thing when you look at what there is to celebrate, this truth that God has shown us? What's one thing?

Mm-hmm.

We want to pray about and work on, you know, the prayer action part. It's not just trying harder, but it's through prayer and purposeful action, um, for the next week until we come back together as a small group again.

I love that. I love that.

Um, yeah, so Josh, what is, um, what is an example of one of the questions, maybe a question that struck you or that a lot of couples would really find maybe challenging, a question for couples to discuss. Just give us an example.

Yeah. Dan, you brought up the weenus idea, but anyways, in the session on physical intimacy, you know, the basic truth that it begins with is that sex and intimacy is a gift from God to a married couple for oneness. And so, um, then the, the discussion questions that go with that first portion of that session, what is enjoyable and good about our intimacy together and what is uncomfortable? And I, I'm guessing that many married couples have feelings about that, but seldom actually discuss it, you know? And so, yeah, that's, that's obviously a— Intimacy is a tremendously personal topic, so that's obviously not a discussion you have as the whole group. It's just the husband and wife having that discussion.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's those kinds of, you know, the second part of that session, what ideas and expectations from the world or the flesh did we take into our marriage about physical intimacy? And how has that created challenges? Again, just inviting couples to be honest with each other without accusing, just acknowledging reality as it is. And then, yeah, recognizing that in certain situations, health issues prevent intimacy or make it very difficult. And so what can we do as a couple to gracefully and creatively keep our relationship physically intimate even though intercourse is not possible? You know, what can we do to make our relationship in our marriage unique from all the other relationships that we're engaged in? And just fighting. And related to that was love is not self-seeking. So how can we, in the midst of this challenge, continue to communicate complete commitment to one another. And so just trying to be very— give couples very non-threatening opportunities to have very specific conversations and how to bring biblical truth into their marriage.

Amen.

That's really good.

I want to take a second, Josh, and tell you a little bit of my story with my husband. And because I knew that y'all were writing The Marriage Course and filming The Marriage Course, we had, um, Janaire on the podcast earlier this year. She talked about the filming and, and kind of, uh, and her parents who are, uh, presenters, correct? Yeah, they are. On The Marriage Course, uh, Garvin and Lori. And, um, so So I had known that it was in the process of writing and filming. And then someone reached out and said, hey, Manda, they need someone to voice the prayers for the marriage devotional. Would you be interested? And I thought, awesome. Like, what cooler work is there?

Yeah.

Voice, you know, like you get to pray and be, you know, oh, so that was awesome. And so I said yes. And then, and then it came back and the producer sent me the scripts. And then I realized it's not just the prayers. They were the women's scripts for the marriage devotional. So the marriage devotional, I'm guessing, is 8 weeks. Is that correct?

Yep. There's a week for each of these sections.

Because I have 4 of those weeks, right? I have 4 of those weeks I'm voicing the devotional part for. And then I, so I'm reading through and in that moment I realized the gift that the Lord had given me. And let me, let me unwrap that for you. About 15 years ago, my husband Valiant and I were just, we had just been through it and we were like, we're done with this. None of this anymore. I was that way. He was not that way. I was like, I'm done with this. I'm not, I'm not. And there was this pinnacle weekend. where the Lord invited me not to trust Valiant, but to trust him, that he was God, and that if I thought he was God, then I had to believe he was big enough to fix any of the things, right? And so staying with Valiant was more of a show of trust to the Lord and giving him time to show me he could do things, right?

Yeah.

And so in that time, in that time, though, though we had both very much chosen to meet the Lord there. We're going to believe he's here with us. He's going to fix the things. There were many things needing fixing. In that time in our marriage bed, when we would go to bed, you weren't feeling amorous, right? Here's a person you were finally admitting, you were finally admitting you actually had all this business with, right?

Yeah.

And the last thing that was just going to magically make it better was sex, right? Because it hadn't worked to this point. Like, that wasn't making it better, right? And so there was this point where we were honest with the Lord and honest with each other. And in that spot, in that very spot, when we came back together, somebody had given us the Power of a Praying Husband, Power of a Praying Wife books.

Yeah.

And I was in a position in my heart towards Valiant that I was like, you have no clue what's going on with me. I don't even trust— like, I don't even trust a book written to men on how they should be praying. What do you even know about us? Right? What do you even know about me? And so out of, really honestly, out of that place, I was just like, no, read me your chapter. And so he would read me one, we would go to bed and he would read to me from his chapter and he would pray the prayer over me. And then the next night I would read my chapter and pray the prayer. And, you know, if the chapters ran long, we would cut it. It wasn't like this—

Yeah.

thing, but it was this thing by slow softening. I became aware of the areas. Like, before, in trying by the flesh to fix the things between us, you were like, here are all the things we need to do. Check, check, check, check, check. We're doing all the things. Why aren't we feeling any different? Right?

And you're trying in your own strength to do it.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. And in that time of connectedness, I mean, it birthed for us and bore for us new ground to stand together, to lay together, to start together, to do together, you know. And just a couple weeks ago when I opened that email and realized the full circle moment I had been offered by the Lord.

Yeah.

To get to potentially share in another couple's opportunity because I realized that there could come the thing where I'm reading to someone just like I read to my husband.

Yeah.

Right? And that Dan would be reading to couples just like my husband had read to me. And it was very special to the Lord. It made the work that much more special that I wanted to capture truly and do my part to try to capture what it is to feel and witness and be in these conversations with the Lord and each other. It's such sacred territory, maybe the most sacred of Eden territory. It's the closest thing back to the garden, right? Of us together with him in that space. And this, it's the mystery, right? This thing that we're talking about, it is.

Yeah, it's amazing. You know, marriage is, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the devotionals were written by 8 different authors in 6 different countries. I intentionally did not write them because I did not want them just to be repeating the ideas that are already in the marriage course. I wanted a fresh perspective. And I just sent out a whole bunch of emails and decided to appoint them in the order that people responded, who got session 1, who got session 2, The week on intimacy, it was a lady from Colombia that was the 6th person to respond. And so we gave her, I gave her that week and she wrote a study based on the book of Song of Solomon. And yeah, it's a beautiful week of celebrating the gift of intimacy. It is beautiful. It was one of my weeks. Yeah. And because it was written by a woman, you got to read it. And so I'm sure Um, you connected at a deeper level with, with some of what was written there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Super precious. I will tell y'all so that people don't think I'm all heart and no funny. Let me tell you. So I also got week 2, uh, no, week 4. I also got week 4, which is the story of David and his first wife, Saul's daughter. And just, just, Don't say anything, just right off the cuff. You would count her name to be pronounced— Josh, tell me. David and—

I would— Michael.

Okay. Dan? David and?

Michael. Yeah.

Okay, dudes. I don't know if it's insecurity over my Southern tongue, right? But I was like, this is an international production, and I'm going to have to say Michael, which is what I learned, right? But I know I'm also smart enough to know that that is not how that name is sounded to real people who know how that name sounds. So I spent like an hour watching other people say her name, like different videos of more or less authentic, you know, like, because it can't be too— I can't get it too on because then I can't say it naturally in a sentence. And her name's in that study. 17 million times. 17 million. If there's one, I'm saying it. Okay. So I, I said—

So how do you say her name?

So, okay. So no, you have to pick. I think that it's not an I sound. I think it's actually me, me. And then that CH inset is a more guttural back of throat sound. Like, not that, not that count there, Michal. So, so what I ended with after like Autistic spiraling, right? Like, I don't know what was going on in my brain, but I was just— I said it a bajillion times. So where I think I ended up— I have to swallow my own spit to say it right— was I think I ended up with Michal, Michal, David and Michal. And so it's in the back of the throat. I had to really practice it and come around it. And I thought that that was going to be the worst of it until the next week I realized was not the Christian marriage sex talk, but the intimacy. Like, there's a lot of intimacy, and you're saying the word sex a lot. And so I had to, like, practice a lot. And so it was just like me repeating it all kinds of funny ways so that your mouth is— none of this is gonna make it. It's all so bad. But oh my gosh, to have been a fly on the wall this last week of me trying to learn Lay down these tracks.

Yeah, your accountability software went crazy. I just spent an hour watching people how to pronounce the word sex.

No, Michal, I know how to pronounce the word sex.

Okay.

Oh, so funny. Okay, Dan, any funny stories from your taping? How has your taping gone?

Mine was fine. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I got to read my own week of writing, so that was fun to be able to read my own thoughts and devotions out loud. I know Rob Davies from England did weeks 1 and 7.

Yeah.

So I got to do weeks 3 and 5. You know, part of the theme of my week was even just bringing forth some of the world, the flesh, and the devil and how those impact the marriage, right?

Right.

And so I actually just shared with a guy maybe even last week how marriage, you know, God, I think part of God's design for marriage is to bring our stuff to the surface, right? That fleshly part of us, and bring those to the surface in a context, a committed covenant context, through which we can then face it and surrender it to him and acknowledge, yeah, that is my self-centeredness. That is my flesh rising up. That is my flesh wanting to be served in certain ways. You know, one of the, one of the devotionals that I wrote is entitled The Laundry Basket. I don't know about you, but laundry baskets create a lot of conflicts in marriage, right? Because we have different ideas. And my wife, this didn't make our devotionals, but she had this picture, she had this image in her mind that when she got married, all of a sudden she would enjoy and be very good at cooking and ironing and cleaning and all the things that her mom just does in spades, like loves doing, and Jen just is not interested. And now 34 years into marriage, she just would rather not, like she'd rather do other stuff. And it was just so funny how she thought magically marriage will make me do this.

Get better.

And, you know, I had this wonderful worldly idea too that magically marriage would meet all my needs and have my wife serve all those needs and do the cooking and the cleaning and the serving. And that's not how reality worked out. And so, you know, it's been a great process of refining and bringing to the surface the things in me that honestly sometimes are hard to see.

Yeah.

And that's where men and women, we have, we have a very important job to do in being able to face our stuff with the Lord. And I still love that Romans 8:1, there's no condemnation for me because I am in Christ Jesus. And the law of the Spirit of life has set me free from the law of sin and death. And it does enable me to walk by the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And And so I, you know, I had to learn to serve. I had to learn to set aside self-centeredness. And I still have to practice those things, right? But then we also have an enemy who wants to take those things and grind the other person into the ground with our stuff, you know, or our stuff triggering their stuff.

Yeah.

It can be so hurtful and destructive and painful. And I see that all the time. But God wants to use it to refine us. Any thoughts from you guys on, you know, what I've just said and what's in the marriage course?

Yeah, the thing that you just mentioned about the enemy, one of the portions that I found particularly meaningful as we were writing the marriage course was the there's a section on the names of Satan, the accuser, the deceiver, the tempter, how the devil and Satan, you know, all those names fit together. And yeah, my wife and I came to recognize how Satan's the accuser, but he wants to use us to become the accuser of each other, you know, just in a very day-to-day, born out of frustration, you know, general attack statements and how we don't have to give into that, but that is a natural tendency.

Yeah.

Yep. I've noticed, and I'm just going to take a second to be real, not only about the cat that is trying to come in frame with me while we're recording, trying to lay down on my desk, but also So I just want to mention, I've noticed several times, I mean, since we work in the field together, right? Since I've been recording the marriage devotional episodes, there's become this thing in my mind, and I will tell you. Something small will be going on between Valiant and I, my husband and I, and he'll, like, not even a thing. But come in my mind will be the thought, you shouldn't be recording this marriage course. See, you, you do not, you are such a hypocrite. What is going on? See, it doesn't work for you. You're, you know, and so it was just, and, and of course, you know what that is, but also, you, you know what that is, right? Like it's—

Yeah. Yeah. To be honest. The devil worked on us when we were at that week we were doing the recording. It was 2 days of practice and then 3 days of recording, and they were full, intense days. And in addition to presenting, my wife and I both had additional responsibilities, which in hindsight was not a good idea. We should have appointed someone else to do all of that. Um, it got, it got difficult between Mandy and I. And so as we were going into the 3rd day, she asked me that basically the same question. Do you feel like this is false? Like, you know how we feel about each other right now. And, and yet here we are talking about marriage. And I said, not at all, because we're as married today as we've ever been. And I'm as committed to you today as I've ever been.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, yeah, we did the filming in Tennessee and we live in Michigan and, uh, when at least when we're not in Uganda and, um, we drove and I told people by the time we got to Northern Ohio, we were okay. But it took hours of talking through what we had experienced to get to the point of Being good again, you know, being good with each other again. It was, I mean, honestly, we gave it our all and the devil really tried. I think, you know, the other presenters were so thankful for them, but they hadn't been involved in the writing. You know, people kind of saw this as, as Josh and Mandi's, they're the ones leading this. And so, you know, it felt like we had the target on us that week.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, the devil was trying to to prevent this from, from finishing, you know? And, um, yeah, so for, for people who are out there listening, I would just, I don't want to present the picture that every moment is perfect. It's not. But that doesn't mean we're less married during those moments, you know?

Like, that's so strong.

That's so strong.

And one of the things that, at least here in the U.S. and in Western cultures, that has either been pounded into us or pounded out of us is that spiritual perspective of we have a very real enemy who wants to steal and kill and destroy. And if he can destroy a marriage, then, right? I mean, even that Malachi passage, part of, and too often this has been weaponized. Yeah. Against people, and I want to be careful. You know, when Malachi says God hates divorce, it actually gives a reason for why God hates divorce, and that is because of the impact on the children, right? The impact on the next generations, the design of God for marriage to be a testimony of Christ's sacrificial love for his bride, us, the church, and our loving submission and return return of love for him and his sacrificial love. It's supposed to be a picture of that, and yet the enemy gets in and just wants to destroy that witness, that testimony to God's glory, and the transmission of the goodness of God and the gospel to the next generation. And so marriage is a prime battleground for that, and yet so often we discount the enemy and his work in the marriage.

Yeah.

So we have to be conscious of that and actively, and men, I want to just call you out, we need to be actively praying for our marriages, for our wives, for our households, and growing in the character of Christ.

Amen. Yeah, and I would add that we acknowledge it in a discussion like this. You know, we acknowledge it in church small group or whatever. Yeah, the devil is opposed to marriage and But in the moment, you know, in the day-to-day grind, um, just, he does that without drawing any attention to himself. So you feel like it's just you and your spouse stuck in this joyless, endless, hopeless struggle, you know, and, and that's not what God intended for marriage. And it doesn't have to be where you stay, you know. Um, but, but the devil is crafty. That's the, that's one of the words that came out in Jen, right? Yeah, he's subtle. And so he, He opposes your marriage without you, without making any, you know, visible indication that he's the one opposing your marriage.

Right. You know, one of the things I was thinking just a moment ago that just came back to mind is that, you know, like in Genesis 3 when they had sinned and God is calling them out on that, where are you, Adam? What'd they do? They start blaming one another.

Yeah.

Right?

The woman you gave me. Well, the serpent made me. Um, you know, they even blame God. The woman you gave me, God, you know, you put her here. It's your fault. It's her fault.

It's somebody's fault, but it's not my fault.

Right. And I, I had to recognize, and I didn't see it early in my marriage. Um, I, cause I'm, I'm normally very methodical and things like that. So when I would misplace my keys, I would go, Jen, where did you put my keys? She's like, I didn't touch your keys. Why would I do anything with your keys? And that was just one indication, like, I'm looking to blame her for my shortcomings.

Yeah.

And so anytime now, you know, 30 years later, I've grown up a little bit. And, but anytime I recognize any blame thought comes into my mind, I'm like, oh no, What is my responsibility and how do I love others and fight this spiritual battle that's going on against my marriage? So I've even just learned to use it. It's a trigger for me to pray and to be on my guard and to take responsibility. And so, you know, the Lord is so good in that, but I had to learn that and I didn't see it at first. Yeah.

Since I have 2 seasoned husbands and pastors, you know, you're steeped not only in the Word, but life experience of following Christ, of being married. I have been wondering, since we're talking about marriage, what is the marriage that only the children of God can produce? Like, can we be married with God in our marriage and that produce something that the world cannot produce in their marriages? And is that what we're seeing in our lives and in the church around us? Are we as Christians producing marriages that the world can produce, or is the Spirit of God enabling us to produce marriages that no one else can produce without him?

Yeah, there's a couple of questions there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, what to me, The church, through the Holy Spirit, through God's truth, can produce what Adam and Eve had. The world can't do that. You know, what did God create? They were naked together and felt no shame. They had become one. They were united. Those things are not possible in our own strength. And therefore, yes, the world can join legally a husband to a wife. Amen. But it's Jesus who came to destroy the devil's work. And so there in Genesis chapter 3, I don't know the exact verse, but God told Eve, you know, your desire is for your husband, but he will rule over you or something like that. Basically, you know, I think that verse has probably been misused often, but you can't argue with the fact that pain and frustration and struggle were going to replace the joy and intimacy and oneness that had been there before. And so what can the world do? They can legally join people, but there's still going to be pain and frustration and struggle because that's the condition as a result of the fall into sin. What can the church do? They can continue to point people to the fact that Jesus came to destroy the devil's work, and therefore the joy and the intimacy and oneness You know, marriage can be overall very, very enjoyable again. That hope is not in following some certain advice. That hope is in having Jesus central in your marriage. And that's what the church has to offer. Are we doing that? In rare occasions, unfortunately. It's less common than it should be.

Okay.

Because number one, many church leaders have never seen this modeled Yes. That becomes very evident when we move to a place in Africa that they can introduce you to the first Christian in the village. That's how it was when we first got to Uganda. Every village we would visit, they would introduce us to the first Christian. About 3 years of that, and I realized none of these church leaders had any Christian example of marriage growing up. Every idea they have is based on what they learned in the culture, and as a result, their marriages are just the same as everybody else. Same struggles, same pains, same frustrations. And honestly, I think that's probably true in a lot of Western settings as well.

Yes.

People love God. They serve him wholeheartedly as a church leader, and yet they carry into marriage the things that they saw modeled growing up. And yeah, I was blessed with godly parents and saw a godly marriage, not perfect, but they tried hard to make Jesus the center of their marriage.

Amen.

But I learned in college that's not true for every Christian. That's not true for very many Christians. And so I think there's a lot of, of church leaders who desire to see this, and yet they're, they're stuck. And as a result, Christians are stuck. And I think that's honestly one of the, the unique distinctives that Freedom in Christ offers the church is We have a way to resolve these issues that make people stuck, and it's not through trying harder. It's through confession, through recognizing lies for what they are, both as in your individual life and in your marriage, and then submitting to God and resisting the devil and replacing the lies with truth. And when we do that, transformation is the result.

Yeah.

And experiencing what God intended Yeah.

Thank you for listening to this part of a much more in-depth conversation. Continue on with us in the next episode. Thanks for listening to this episode of Stories of Freedom. Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And help us get the word out by sharing stories of freedom with your family and friends. Don't hesitate to join us in the work. Also, if these conversations have blessed you and you want to partner in the work that we're doing, we would love that. Freedom in Christ is a donor-based ministry, and so we need people to feel led by the Lord to join us in the work He has us doing. Could that be you? Go to ficm.org/give to see and find out.