Freedom for the Everyday Average Joe: the Dawson Grover Stories (2 of 2)

Welcome, friends, to Stories of Freedom, a podcast about discovering and embracing who you are in Christ. On each episode, we'll visit with people who have overcome obstacles, gained freedom, and found abundant life in Christ. These conversations will highlight the goodness of God woven throughout the lives of His people and teach us as His children to appreciate that very same goodness in our own lives. We will journey together, growing to better understand how to live this life free and fruitful in Christ. This is a multi-part episode. You are entering a conversation already in progress. Enjoy.

All right, well, I want to unpack that significant conversation a little bit more because again, we're talking about freedom for the average Joe, right? Freedom for the average Christian guy. And part of what a works-based, performance-based Christianity looks like is, how can I apologize when I have to be right and my whole identity is based on being right, being better? Right? As opposed to when my identity, my acceptance, my security, my significance is rooted in the finished work of Jesus Christ and I receive it by faith, then it's, I can admit my shortcomings and my failures. I can be honest about that, and I can apologize for the ways that I messed up. You know, and that I failed even as a dad. I think it was just a few weeks ago, I said to one of my daughters, I said, I'm so sorry we let you have access to smartphones as teenagers. We didn't know, like, all of what we were allowing to be present in their room at night without our help through that device in their pocket, you know. And she graciously said, well, Dad, you didn't understand at the time. But it's boy, we failed to protect them from access to things. And thank God he watched out for them. But what other ways would you encourage men that a grace-based sanctification versus a performance-based sanctification is a better way to live? How does that look and why is it, why is it the preferred path and the biblical path?

The way I want to answer that, Dan, is this, is that I think we can say, yes, grace is the way to go. Mercy is God's way to go, but why? Why? And part of that, Verses, you know, Jeremiah 29:13, you will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. That things started to manifest in my life, those types of things, okay? That as I am a God seeker, okay, and pursue God, he will reveal himself to me. And Is God graceful? Is God merciful? Yes. But what else is he? And so now I began in it. This was a long path. Okay. Began to unearth the lies about my heavenly Father. Okay. And that, um, I think I, there was just a road that God kept taking me down to taken me down and taken me down. Because God, one of the things that I struggled with is the sufficiency of God, the sovereignty of God. And what had taken place after that is God had put me into a church. It was supposed to be a plant, but it was a restart. I'm just going to leave it simple like that. It was, uh, and, and, and so it was a very complex situation because you had people thinking it was a church plant. You had people thinking, nope, this is the way we're doing it. This is the way we've done it. It was a mess. It was a mess. And, uh, we were, I was in this, in this situation for 5 and a half years. And it, it, it brought me to the end of everything. I did the best I felt like I was doing, the best that I could do. And, and I started getting pressure from people and comments from people that I wasn't doing it right, wasn't doing it wrong. All of a sudden, our marriage, you know, became under attack. Um, we were struggling deeply. Our daughter was going, her marriage was going through a very, very difficult time. And so in every aspect of this, I mean, we were coming down, we were coming down. And not only that, we had a prayer partner come out to our house in that time. And when they came into that community, there's a river and they went across that river and they got there and they said, oh my goodness, this is a dark community. And now, so I'm down in the cities area now.

Okay.

I'm not no longer up north than that, but, and I'm going in and this is one person that I trust totally. And I'm going to put it this way. You guys do too. So, and I was just fortunate to have them as prayer partners. And I just, I had come to the end of myself. And part of that coming to the end of myself was there was a lot of conflict going on in the congregation. And so the district came in. And so we sat down and here was there was just so much going on. And the things, again, all of a sudden I am in a situation where there are things in this congregation that I'm just going, you've got to be kidding me, spiritual battles and wars going on. And yet we are seeing victory within these individual situations. But yet there was a level of, I don't dare say anything. I don't dare say anything. You know, the unsafe community was still there. And we ended up having a meeting with the board and other significance involved. And here's one of the things that happened that God, you know, if I had to do it over today, where I am today would be different. But for an hour and a half, I sat and had to listen to as the, was being led, led by our, our, the district is people telling me what I was not doing right, what was incomplete and what I was doing wrong and what was wrong with me and I should do it. I mean, and, and I, I lost it. I, I got up and walked out and I was done. And, and at that point, they put me on, you know, a 3-month sabbatical, you know, of healing. And long and short of that is that I did whatever they told me to do to heal. Okay. And, and as, but was never able to come back, you know,, to that congregation because of certain things. And, and again, Karen and I started to heal. We started to process through all this stuff. And, and, but I thought it was done in ministry. I literally thought I was done. And God took me out of there. And, and through, I went to counseling. I went to all this stuff and, and some of it still didn't seem to be enough. Okay. And, and I went to counseling and, and as I went to counseling, you know, they said, well, maybe you should do short-term ministry and kind of with Freedom in Christ and all this. Now, I was on staff with Freedom in Christ from '96 to 2001. And I took this church on in 2001 to 2006. Okay. And, and so I knew the Freedom message, right? I understood it. I taught it. Preached it, you know, and I was teaching it in this church. And, and yet God says there's more, there's something else. And I didn't like it. I mean, it hurt. It was painful. And I went and said, okay, I'm going to learn how to be an interim pastor. And I went through my training, this training as being an interim, and, and came back home. And 2 days later, I decided, okay, I'm going to fill out my information and file to become an interim pastor with this group. Okay. And so I mailed the information and I literally mailed that information in. And the next day I got a call and they said, Dawson, we think we have a church for you. I said, wait a minute, you do not have the information. You don't have my application. Yeah, we know, but we got to know you well enough that we think we'd like to put you, you know, there's a church that we'd like you to go to and we will give you a full coach. And so I went down and interviewed at this church and applied for it. Meantime, let my mentor know, be praying for it. And he calls me up and he says, what, you know, where are you going? And I told him and I said, okay. And he says, why? I said, why? He says, well, I'll be praying for you. And God put us in this church. And it was 3 months later, I called him up and I said, Why were you praying for me? And he goes, because it is the most legalistic church in that district. And I just, I kind of just froze. I just froze because I felt like God had taken me out of the frying pan. And throwing me into the fire, which he, I really felt. I mean, it was, it was hard ministry. I mean, there was some good things and I've got some relationships out of that church yet today, but it was one of those things where all of a sudden I'm teaching this grace and there's conflict. There's just conflict after conflict. And, and, but God's grace gets coming through. And, um, and there was great things about it that, that happened. And, and it did kind of end. There was a group of people, I got forced out, and there was a group of people that left. And here's the cool thing about it is they gave me this plaque and they went to purchase this plaque and they said, oh, it was all about grace and mercy on it. And I can't remember, but there was a board on a board and it was crooked. And they got ready to purchase it. They go, oh, that's crooked. And the clerk went to them and said, let's order you a new one. And they said, no, that's perfect. He believes in grace. And so it was those things that God kept driving me and saying, seek me. Seek me, trust me. Trust me. And that was hard because I got, I kind of got moved out of there. We came to a no passing and I just went to the board, what can I do? And I resigned because I know there wasn't any hope with that. And so, but God continued to work in my life. And so, and then I spent about 10 years in interim pastoring and And I didn't have another church right away. And the next church that came up literally came to this, which I didn't ever think that the district would call me. And they said, we think we have a church that might work for you as an interim. It's part-time. But we're going to tell you this from the beginning. If it closes, it's not your fault. And God used those 2 and a half years to heal Karen and I and to heal that little congregation. Amen. I mean, we just, we healed and yet at the end of 2 and a half years, we closed it and we're able to walk away with that. And so God worked in a healing process with us in that.

Amen. I have a couple of questions that are coming up for me, but Dan, I don't want to— if you have something, I want to let you take the lead. We've said several times— I think I'll ask this one first. We've said a couple of times, or, you know, mentioned a couple of times this phrase of like that everyday average Joe freedom, or, you know what I mean? And as you're telling your story and it's coming into picture for my mind, right? I, I'm seeing you as a, as a young man because I only have sons, so I'm very connected to boy, to boy growth, to boy life, and to wanting boys to do well, right? My, my whole hope almost in life is that boys do well. I spend a lot of time thinking about how boys in my world can live well, do well, right? As we're listening to your story kind of come out and you're painting the picture of it, and what would you say, even as we say the words like everyday average Joe, and then we attach the word freedom to that? We're listening to your story, and it's, if I had to say, as it's arcing right now, There's a lot of downs and then back and then downs and like, and, and so is that true? Is what we're seeing played out or how we're seeing the picture, is that what you— is, is that a true representation, would we say, of everyday average Joe freedom? What does that mean? And are we getting a good picture of that in your story?

I think it is in different terms. It is because what we see a lot of times, okay, what we see a lot of times is somebody, the, the, um, a story that we see a pastor that has been there for 20, 30 years and well, you know, that's great. Or has been at a job and never, you know, been there is, is, is just gone along. That's the picture we see.

As success, right? Yeah.

That's success. What we don't see is we're going along and all of a sudden, here's an issue. Then we come back up. There's another issue. There's, you know, and back. And there's this continuous sanctification. Okay. I know that's a $25 word, but God working out Christ in us.

Woo! Come on. That's it.

God working out— again, I want to make sure that I say that again. God working out Christ in us. It's not— it's me becoming more like Christ, but I've already got Christ in me to become more like him. Okay? So that is huge. And And the average, I think, is the average spiritual life is ups and downs, is ups and downs.

Yes.

And so I served several years. I had to find out. And I don't know where I got this from. I got it from somebody. But the fact is, what is success? What is success? Is it being a pastor in a church for 30 years? Is it being any, you know, having so many people come to Christ and doing this, or is it interim, all these churches working out wonderfully together and all this kind of stuff? And I had to come to this definition, and this is success. Success is finding out what God wants you to do. And do it. Because, you know, as you look at some of the prophets, as you look at some of the things in the scriptures, it didn't always end up good in our eyes. It ended up the way God desired it and God wanted it. Was it successful in the way of man? Not necessarily. But what's important is that we are seekers of God and willing to say, Lord, I will be your servant. Okay? And you break me. You break me in any way that makes me a better servant to you.

What I hear, Dawson, and you tell me, you can reframe from there. What I hear you saying is that everyday average Joe freedom is really not determined by other people and those outcomes. It's everyday average Joe freedom is really dependent on my yes to the Lord, right? Is really like that freedom freedom in the nitty-gritty. I was going to use another turn of phrase I would have had to edit out, just honestly. Come on, Lord Jesus, right?

Like, protect us here.

When we get, when we get down to the nitty-gritty of it all, right? Yeah, really everyday average Joe's success is my yes to the— is, is really measured in my yes to the Lord. Am I still giving the yes, whatever it looks like, however it's coming together or pictured in this moment, however it looks on the long time. Like, it's really marked in my daily yeses to the Lord and the consistency of that.

Yeah, it comes to the fact of, am I seeking the Lord and knowing Him and doing what He desires of me to do?

Amen.

And it may not be the normal path. And God, and part of my saying, you know, my averages is that I'm, am I the best at what I do? No. Am I the worst? No. You know, again, it's, do I do things right?

Yes.

Okay. But do I mess up? I mess up. And God in his ways will work and redeem. And part of it is trusting. Part of it is trusting God and knowing God. One of the things I have in a drawer right here next to me is a letter. That literally 25— I mean, this came to me only 2, 3 years ago, 25 years later from that very church, one of the board members writing a letter of apology and saying, I should have stuck up for you. Okay. Did I ever think that would happen? No. Okay. I mean, and so part of it is it comes to the point of saying what matters most is what we do for the kingdom. And that is what I mean by that is I'm obedient to what God calls me to do. Okay. And here's the difference. Here's the difference is that we talk about this all the time. And I don't want to, use these terms because we talk about it all the time. Okay. So I'm always looking for different terms, but I don't have any other different terms. Okay. Is we always say, well, it's yes, it's not religion, it's relationship. But what does that relationship really look like? Is it the fact that I am really having a relationship with God to the fact that I am seeking his presence, that I am seeking his face, And, you know, and then I'm seeking to see what his word says about him. One of the key factors that I've changed within all that is that when I read the word of God, it's to seek the character of God, not what I should do.

Wow.

Because, because as I read the word of God and I sit back and I fellowship with him and in my prayer time, You know, I'm listening to him. Amen. And saying, what do you want today, Lord? How are you? You know, that quiet time. And sometimes you'll just sit, there's nothing. But as I wait on him, then he says there's little things. And sometimes it's just, am I satisfied today? With just being in his presence. Amen.

Ah, that's super beautiful.

I mean, and I think one of the things I want to circle back around to, I said earlier, it's learning his sovereignty. And I struggled with his sovereignty. I mean, I could tell you stories that God showed me his sovereignty, but One of the things that I learned is that God is sovereign. Amen. And he is very relational, but it may not be in the time that you and I want, and that's the struggle.

Amen. Amen. Good.

And it's things like reading through the book of Ezra, you know, and if he can use Cyrus,, you know, an ungodly king to get accomplished what he can do. He, he's sovereign. Okay.

Um, I, I want to get in because I know the work you're in now, and we haven't even kind of traveled into that territory. I don't want to miss it. That's where, that's where I want to start heading the train. But before I do that, um, in keeping with the fact that this will go out in June, right, you'll be our highlight guest. You are a father, both of you. I sit among, uh, fathers, right? The fathers. Um, I want— I want to ask a question, um, as a wife, um, to a husband that I love very much, uh, who is fathering, right? He's trying to learn to father and to be connected to the Father. Right? And all that that is, which is an awful lot, actually. It's an awful lot to journey through. How can we as wives and women who love our sons, who love our husbands and our fathers, how can we be present and supporting whatever is going on in y'all at any given moment? Like at any given, on any given day, how can we as girls who love boys be supportive of whatever's going on with y'all?

I was actually going to ask that same question, Amanda. Like how did, how did Karen encourage you, influence you in that? Even in some of that transition of learning to live from a place of grace toward yourself and toward others. But yeah, I think Amanda's question is broad too, which is good.

So just pick, just your choice, dealer's choice, right?

Maybe it's God gave me a wife that has a lot of empathy.

That one's not bad. That's not what— choose well, boys, choose well. Mercy, you know.

You know, God has given men and fathers and husbands a high calling.

Amen.

Okay? To love our wives as Christ loved the church. And the hardest one is not to provoke your children to anger, you know? That's easy for us. You know, we can do it simply. Okay. And again, the key, the thing that we need to do is, and this is not easy. Okay. Is we need to be seekers of God. And allow him. I love, okay, we're reading through 2 Peter the other day that God has what, you know, he has in his divine power has given us everything for godliness. He has given us everything for godliness. Okay, so life and godliness, God has given it to us all. Build that deep in your belief system. Pursue harmony with God. Pursue humility. And help, and in that, out of that humility, we're able to admit our mistakes in that, but that high calling is impossible without God. Amen. And I would say, be an encourager. You know, if you're asking that for the wives or whatnot, be an encourager. He isn't perfect. We are imperfect. Okay? And our culture does not— our culture looks down on men. Okay. And that they don't know what's going on or whatever. All right. They don't do it well enough. Women are far more superior. That's our culture. And so that's coming in continuously. And so I think be an encourager, you know, and give mercy and grace. And that's what I think is important, knowing that the calling of being the husband to lay down our lives for our wives and to be that example for our children is a high calling. In Christ, all is possible. And it's done by God's grace. And as God extends grace to you, extend grace to your children. Amen.

One of the things you said, and it jibes with what you're saying here, is that, you know, the walk of sanctification, the walk, the Christian walk, is God working out Christ in us, right? He's made us new creations. At the core of our being, in our spirit, we were dead, now we're alive. We were darkness, now we're light in the Lord. We were in the kingdom of darkness, now we're in the kingdom of the Son that God loves, right? The Father loves. We've been radically changed, and he's put his Holy Spirit in us, right? So he's made us new, and he's with us. He himself is with us.

Amen.

For this, character transformation. And I actually, you know, you just referenced 2 Peter a moment ago. I actually had just looked up 2 Peter chapter 1, where he says that, you know, God has given you everything necessary for life and godliness, but he doesn't stop there. He says, "Therefore, add to your faith goodness, knowledge, self-control, brotherly kindness, love," right? And so men, dads, husbands, grandpas, we have a responsibility to be conformed to the character of Christ. And part of the powerful and beautiful and amazing things that Peter says here is that in verse 8, he says, if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. You know, so often we think effectiveness, productiveness comes from my hard work and my, you know, drive, my demandingness, my, you know, holding people to this impossible standard. But he says, no, it's your character transformation in Christ-likeness will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive. And then a couple verses later in verse 10, the second part, he says, if you do these things, you will you will never fall. You will never fail, some translations say. That's amazing.

That blows me away.

It does. It's incredible. And that's where then difficult people and difficult circumstances that the world might call failures actually can help us in our becoming more conformed to the character of Christ. One of the other things you pointed out earlier is Karen asked you a question. Why do you get so angry? Right? And I know my wife, one of the ways that she has challenged me, and it really, it actually takes a lot of strength on the part of a wife, on the part of a woman to not come across as condemning and judgmental, but to ask a good question that gets right to the heart of the issue. Right.

Right.

Right. And, and she asked you a question. That got to the heart of the issue, right? And that pointed you at saying, Jesus, I need your help because what's in me is coming out and it's not good. It's not, it's not these character traits of Jesus. Help me. And you prayed a dangerous prayer and God took you up on it. But look where he's brought you.

Amen.

Now, and that is, you know, it's hard. It's scary. But again, that's why it's so important for us to know our identity, know that battle for the mind, and to learn to win that battle. Because the enemy will continue. The enemy will continue to just penetrate that lie on you. And I even had a scenario one time where I was, it was, I won't tell you about the whole scenario, but I was with some individuals that I didn't anticipate being with. We're having this biblical discussion. Okay. And, and it was in my, the early days of my pastorate. And they said, you don't know what you're talking about. You're really off here. And I even told them, I'll go talk to a professor. I'll go talk to somebody. But one of the people literally looked at me and remember the lie that I told you, okay? And is, is that you'll never know enough. The one person literally looked at me and said, I know what your problem is. I says, what's that? He says, you have the demon of the lack of knowledge. Here's the truth, which God had already taught me enough, okay? I looked at him and said, there's no such thing. And I did. I literally got in my car that night and I says, Lord, I know there is no such thing. And in the name of Jesus Christ, I command Satan to get out of here.

Mm-hmm.

And so the enemy will continue to penetrate the lie or the sin that they always present it there. And that's why we need to know who Jesus is, to know who we are, and that I am in him and he is in me. I'm sealed by the Holy Spirit. Mm-hmm. And, and, and to walk in his power and might through his grace and mercy.

Yeah. Amen. Amen. I, uh, when y'all were talking scripture— and, and I do want to get to the work you're in— but when y'all were talking scripture just now in 2 Peter, uh, I was reminded of the Philippians, uh, Philippians 2. And when, when it's talking about it is God at work in you, we, we had brought up that some of that came up in Carrie's, uh, stories a couple months ago when we were sharing with Carrie. But that what comfort because we learned— I learned the verse, it's like, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. And there was a way that I would have understand how to work things out with fear and trembling, right? And it's a little different context. Yeah, right. It's, it's more the slave-master context. But he follows it up because this whole, this whole thing is like shine brightly for Christ and having the attitude of Christ, like those kind of things. And so he tells you about who Christ is, and then he says right? You have listened to me when I was with you. You listen to me now that I'm away. Even better that you're listening, right? And then he says, work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. 13, for God is working in you, giving you— not requiring from you, whipping it out of you, right? Giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. And by, by what I hear you saying, it reminds me that, that God is the author and perfecter of our faith. He writes it, and then he writes more in there. Like, like he, like he started the whole conversation on our faith, and then he continues writing in the conversation of our faith. Now, at no point does he then hand us the pen and say, hey, why don't you take over? You're doing such a good job. No, like, he, he's the one. He's not— he, he knows who he is. He never forgets that he's God and we're not, right? Like, he— that he's never confused about who we are and who he is in this relationship. And I love how your everyday average Joe freedom experience is that look, in all of this, I'm, I'm not God, and I don't have to be. And it's a constant taking off of, of these false selves that said it was up to me in the first place, right? Like, that was always— no, it was never your responsibility. God was always the one who was going to write it in and then give you more of it, right? Like, he was always going to be prepared to be ready for every one of your needs. Amazing, this sonship thing, right? I mean, Dawson, you're in some really meaty— if people are listening to this and they're, and they're missing the meatier points of this conversation, I bless them. I bless them for another time through with the Lord, because some of the things that you are speaking on sound everyday average, and they are profound life changing revelations. I mean, it just is. It just is, brother. So I commend you for being in it and staying in it. One of the things I wrote, uh, when you were talking, because I kind of write notes to myself: when Dawson is in, he's all in. When Dawson is in it with it, like, you're all in. Like, you're reading the whole book in a night, and you're going to the Steps in the day, and you're doing a whole Steps appointment. Like, dude, if you had, like, I don't want to be the first mirror to you today, but when you're in, you're all in, friend. You are in it. And, and what a blessing. Um, I know for us it has been— I know, uh, it— last year, Dan, in this time, because, because we'll be showing this during the summer, we'll be releasing this during the summer, during that same time frame, we had Warren on as a guest I'm taking you back now. I'm sure you're remembering we had Warren on as a guest and Warren came in to talk about his stories, but also to talk about Transform and his role in Transform and that he would be leaving Transform. And you and I said in that thing one year ago, right in that episode, we'll be coming back to tell you all about who takes this position because that was, I mean, we were, it was actively praying for that. Lord, draw up somebody. Who is it going to be? And I don't want to bury the lead here, like, in the last quarter of our conversation, right? Like, but hey everybody, welcome back to that conversation, right? It's Dawson, right? Um, so I mean, we could go ahead and, and come back to that. Dawson, you're in some really big— I mean, you started in the '90s, you came back after, after time, right? And you've been actively working in it in your fields, in your home fields, right? And then also being raised up and drawn up in Freedom in Christ as an organization, because we're a nationwide and international ministry, right? So it's, it's— we're not everything, but also there's real work going on, and there's levels of real work going on, and you have been serving at a lot of different levels But I want to hone in right now on your most active, most active forward role for our ministry, which is, and I don't want to get it wrong, you're our what, Dawson?

I guess.

What is your official title?

I guess my title is National Director of Transform.

Thank you. Okay, good. Good. You said it better than I would.

Someplace I never anticipated, right?

Okay. Well, I'm the National Director of Fun. So I don't know what people are going to think our departments are if yours is Transform and mine is Fun, that I think we need to bring on some other people to round out the ministry.

Well, what I've been aiming for is to be transformed in the National Director of Fun and you come to here.

No. I'll keep my position and you stay at yours. What do you do? Dan, let's let you in on this conversation.

Oh, I was just wondering how that would work if things would switch places.

Notice neither of us wanted his position.

Oh yeah. Neither of you volunteered to take my seat.

No one wants the presidency. I'm fine with being the head of fun. Don't you understand? That's really where I probably shine.

That's true.

That's where where you thrive. Yeah. Yeah. So Dawson, tell us about what you do. Tell us first of all, what is Transform? Who's it for? And what's it all about?

Yeah.

Oh man. I'm really excited. I never anticipated being where I'm at. First, I've got an awesome team, you know, and with Anne Harris and Sherry, Ellison, now Glen Widmark is our new cohort leader, and the hub leaders. Everybody just does such a great job, and we're doing— So Transform is, I guess I'm going to put it this way, here's a little tag for Transform that I think really describes it, is Transform is equipping the heart of the leader to experience the fullness of God. And so—

Stop. Wait. Nope. Stop. Stop. Dude, in this business, when you throw down something that good, you have to say it twice. Okay, here's a key. Here's a key to this thing. Okay, say it again. I'm writing it down. It's so good.

Transform is focused on this, is equipping the heart of the leader to experience the fullness of God. And in reality with that, okay, what we're desiring is, we're not equipping leaders, this is how to lead. We're equipping the heart of the leader. What's going on in that heart of the leader? And so briefly to describe that, we come together, we go into a hub, you know, quote unquote small group for 9 months. And it's amongst peers, amongst leaders. We're really focusing in on leaders with this. And and saying, we want to help you. We want to encourage you, and we want to encourage your heart and strengthen your heart. And so part of that is going through the Freedom in Christ course, understanding your identity, understanding the spiritual battle and the battle for our mind, forgiveness, and then processing through the Steps to Freedom in a personal appointment.

Okay.

And so that's the first step. The second, and then we go through the next course we take is the Grace Course. And really challenge you as a leader, are you living in, and this is my words here, and this is the way I describe the Grace Course, and when I get done with it, is are you living in the power of grace? Are you living out of grace? Are you living in giving grace. And sometimes that takes us back and saying, and we look at the prodigal son and we see that, well, I was never a prodigal, but what about that older son?

Woo, come on.

What about that older son that I was there and I didn't use all the position and authority that I had? I was just that working hard, you know, that's where legalists end up. All right. And yes, and working in that. And so, and here's part of it before I go on. Part of the power of this with the Hub is this, is that we do our best and I see it so often is that to create an environment that is safe and to create an environment there that you can share and you be encouraged. And as I was going through Transform, when I came back and I had to go, went through Transform, I watched this inner own hub where people would be able to share and we might go off topic a little bit, but it wasn't because it was about grace and somebody was struggling with, they weren't receiving grace. And so that was encouraged in them. Okay. And so this hub builds that. And in that time, what is happening is they are experiencing grace and they're experiencing the fullness of God. And so it's not only, I'm going to teach you these things, but I'm going to help equip you in your heart to walk in a newness of a relationship with God. And newness with other believers.

Amen.

Okay. I'm going to say, because when I was coming into Transform, I'd come out of time where it was hard to be vulnerable. It was hard to be vulnerable, but God healed. Okay. And so, and then the last course that we walk through is Freed to Lead, which really looks at the challenge you, and I wish I would have had some of this earlier. And Freed to Lead is a It's an awesome book. But before you go through the course, if you have it, read it now and then read it again. And after you go through the course, read it again. Okay. I mean, Rod Wood has, man, he has some great stuff. But it's really, if I'm to put it in a nutshell, it's this. It's that, where am I leading out of? Am I leading out of my identity, being, or am I leading out of my doing? And that doing becomes out of performance. And then how am I leading in anxious situations? Am I anxious myself? Or am I leading out of my identity and knowing that God is in control and God is a sovereign God and we can get through this? And, you know, is this a dilemma, working through this dilemma, you know, versus making a decision here? No, this is a dilemma. We just got to process through this. And so out of that, after those 9 months, we want to challenge you to come up what we call a transformational action plan, where it is just taking how is God going to use this in your life and your ministry. And out of that, we hope that your heart has been transformed. And you have experienced a new depth in your relationship with God.

And others.

Yep. And with others. Because that relationship, those relationships in those hubs sometimes just continues.

Amen. Like I have, you know, I personally went through Transform when we first were running the first one. After the beta course, right, when we were running it for leaders here and found it really, really good. I found it really hard at first in that first year, just honestly. But we were also going through COVID. There was a lot of hard things going on. So, you know, it's hard. It's hard to— but, but the every cycle, the people from Transform, one of the great things that you hear is that they stay connected, that they still stay connected after years. WhatsApp groups, right? They're still messaging each other. They're still asking for, for prayer. They're meeting again for new studies, like, hey, I went through something, do you want to go through something with me? Um, so when we're talking about this, I want to make sure that people understand, just, just practically, these are virtual hubs. Transform is a virtual discipleship program that we have in Freedom in Christ that we offer. And you're talking about the 9 months. I just very practically here, because your episode comes out or will come out in June. Tell us about the Transform Season. When you're talking about that it works this way and that we meet virtually and you're meeting with people around the country, right, in small safe groups where you can actually process through the things we teach people, right? It's not just here, come learn how to teach people what to teach people, but here, come and, and safely learn it for yourself and then go out, right? So, so tell me about— it goes on for 9 months, but when does it start? How do people get involved? If there's practical nuts and bolts like that, could you share them?

Yeah, well, we go onto the webpage under courses, of course, and find Transform, and there's more information about that. There's an application process. Like I said, we want to equip leaders, and you apply. And then we'll, we'll interview you and, and then, then you'll be able to register because again, we're, we're looking for leaders. Okay. And sometimes we just encourage people, you know, for where you're at right now, maybe go to the Freedom in Christ course and then come back.

Okay.

Right. So then, then you apply and you're accepted into it. And like you said, Amanda, is that it is virtual. It's on Zoom. All right. So your hub being put together. All right. Actually, we got a hub right now that is going on from Florida to Alaska. I mean, that's the span that we're in. Okay. We wrestle with time zones, right?

Yes.

But yes, those things are key. And so you are literally with end up with people from all over the United States. Okay. And so you build that relationship. And so you go through those courses for those 9 months. And at the end of that, okay, you meet once a week. It's a weekly basis. And we meet for, we schedule for an hour and a half to 2 hours. I always schedule my hubs for 2 hours. Okay. If we get done early, praise God. If we, you know, we'll wrap it up in 2 hours. It's always 2 hours, you know, and because us guys, we talk, we know how to share, we get deep, you know.

Amen. I think that's going to be news to some women. I think that's going to be news to some women, but you boys are in it, right? It's not a He-Man woman hater club. Christianity, hey, Christianity is not a He-Man woman hater club. God does not hate women and neither do Christ-like men. Right?

Exactly.

Keep going, bro.

We schedule that. And you do. And there is that texting back and forth. Hey, I need prayer this week for this or whatever. There's relationships built. And that trust factor is built. And so we want you to come. We want you to come and say, okay, I want to learn. I just, I want not only to learn, I want God to work in my heart. And I want to experience his fullness. That's what Ephesians talks about, that Paul is talking about experience the fullness of God. And so I want to grasp onto more of who God is and experience him more in my life. All right. And so, and then the, at the end of this night, the last thing in the 9 months, which I'm getting ready to head out to in a week here is an in-person retreat. Retreat. And so for the first time in 9 months, all of us get to see each other in person. And it's so fun. It is. It's just an awesome time. And so, and at this retreat, we just want you, you know, one, see those relationships we have with one another. But we also, the more important thing is we give you time after each session to go and spend 40 minutes with God alone and saying, what did God say to you in this session? Amen. And we want to create those opportunities not only to deepen relationships with our fellow believers, but to deepen and experience that relationship with God. So that's Transformus as brief as I can share.

That's good. And it's so important for leaders to hear that it's not just about how do I do my job better. But it's really that concept of we can't give what we don't have. And, you know, as I've led through some Transform Hubs, and one of which was only men in full-time ministry, and we had 7 guys from 5 states and one was in a different country. But multiple of those men said, you know, I started this because I wanted to bring it to my church, but I realized this is for me. Just like God worked in you in the middle of that conference of, I wanna do some work in you so that you're leading from a place of authenticity and integrity and that you're living and practicing these things in front of others so that you can lead them in this true relationship with Jesus too. And it's powerful. It's really, really good for us to, I mean, hey, Jesus said, uh, unless you're connected to the vine, you cannot bear fruit.

Right. Right.

And that's what it does. Transform connects us to him, the vine.

Yeah. It helps us get there. It helps us connect to the vine and it helps us connect. I mean, the other one, the other thing is it really helps us see in in a smaller group and people walking in their identity and freedom can really share. Yeah.

Amen.

And when guys feel safe, that's when, okay, I know nobody's going to share this. Everybody's going to be confidential. They're going to pray for me. They're going to love me no matter what. Yeah. Sometimes then the floodgates can open. So yeah, thank you for leading that.

I can't, um, maybe, uh, it sounds like I can't sign my own husband up for Transform since, since there's an interview. Like, he would have to sign himself up, is that what you're saying to me? So any women who might be listening and they're like, this is for my husband, um, they, they need to know we don't work on referral basis, like, in Freedom in Christ. Like, it's dudes, right? Uh, attest with me here. Like, we have to tell people, no, we don't take referrals. People have to come of their own free will. It's part and parcel to it, right?

Men and women, this men and women need to come on their own initiative. Okay. Because, you know, we, you know, yeah, we, this has been about fathers and men a little bit, but women are in leadership too. It's open to women.

Okay. Praise Jesus.

Yeah, you bet. And, and, and, uh, um, it's kind of fun. My wife is actually going through Transform right now. She's just finishing up for 9 months and with a— actually, it ended up being a group, other women pastors and pastors' wives. Okay.

Amen.

Amen. Come on. And so, yeah, you need to apply.

Okay.

You get individually with that. And there's also sometimes there's mixed groups too. Yeah. But yes, each individual needs to apply and go through that application process.

And our dates, just a second, Dawson, if you remember, like, um, just off the top of your head, it starts when— when do you take registration? When does registration kind of open? When do you try to have people already registered to put them in groups? Like, what are our time frames there?

Okay, our target right now, you can go online and apply right now. Okay, you can go on and apply right now, and we'll go through the application and, um, July 4th, okay, is after you've been approved, we'll open registration. So then you can register and choose a group at that time.

Beautiful.

And so those groups will have, you know, several different groups that you can choose from and, and, and times and days with that. And so you can go on that. So the registration opens up our classes, our groups usually start start the first week in September.

Great. What about leaders? Say someone who's listening is already FAM, right, which is what we call the people who are friends and family to Freedom in Christ. Like, they've gone through our stuff, they're affiliated with us, so we call them FAM. So say a FAM member is listening. Is Transform a thing that needs like workers? Like, do they need leaders? Do we need our trained leaders to be hub leaders for Transform? Are, you know, is that a thing that you have a need for?

Yeah, we're on the process right now trying to set up this vault. And our prayer is that we have 50 participants. Okay. And so you're going to break them down into hubs. And so we're going to need at least 70, 8 hub leaders, plus we also like to have an assistant leader.

We do. We do like team teaching.

Yeah. And part of that is that not only a FAM, but here's the challenge, is that to be a hub leader, we need you to have also processed through Transform.

Right.

And so if you're a FAM and haven't gone through Transform, let me encourage you to go through Transform. Transform, okay? And it'll be good. It'll be good. Listen, when I came back to Freedom in Christ Ministries, one of the requirements was Dawson go through Transform, okay? And I'll be honest, I had the attitude, I had an attitude. I've been teaching this stuff for 30 years, really? And, but I am really glad that I did. I really am glad that I did because God really works. Okay, he did some things in processing in my life. And so I'm really thankful for that. And so that is the only one of the requirements is that you have processed through Transform to step into that.

Before you lead it, right? Like we require you to go through it before we'll let you lead it. I feel like that's all right. I feel like that's an all right thing.

It's, it's, it's, yeah. Even though you've gone through the individual material, there is an experience and process through Transform that is life-changing.

Amen. We were just testing your humility, Dawson.

Oh, it was so good. It was on display. That was so good. I was going to make some jokes. I kept them all in too. I was loving it.

It was great.

Dan, do you have— what do you have for wrapping us up? Where do you see us going, bro?

That's a great question, Amanda.

I'm full of them.

I'll wrap this up. I'm gonna wrap this up.

I probably have something to contribute at the end, but go for it, Dr. Neil T. Anderson.

I wanna tell you a story, okay? And it has a lot to do with understanding my identity in Christ, okay? And here it is, is Actually, and this is a very fresh story, all right? In 2018, I ended up in a very difficult scenario in my life. Okay, now we're talking years here, right? I literally got fired from a church and it rocked Karen and I's world. We did not go to church for over 3 months. And when we did return to church, I went to a place that people knew me and told one of the staff members and a friend, I said, you know, I told him what we had been through. And he says, man, we have to have lunch. And I walked away and I told Karen, I said, I will not be the initiator. Of that lunch, and I never heard anything. Matter of fact, didn't hear anything. I, I was— we were just totally isolated. Through that process, God worked in my life and my identity again, and his sovereignty. And I had wanted to always go to one of these these called prayer summits. And I said, I'm going to go to one of these. And by that time, I'd been back on staff with Freedom of Christ. God had done a work. I felt like I was really in a good place. And I invited 10 guys to go with me. I just wanted somebody to go with me, okay? And one individual was going to go with me, and something came up at the last minute that he forgot and couldn't And so I went to this person all by myself. I kind of knew some of the people there, but I didn't know them. All right. I'd been in some conferences with them. And when I got there, I said, I'm in a good place. I just want to experience. I just want to be in the presence of God for 3 days. That's all I want is to experience the presence of God with the body of Christ. And so we went and about halfway through it, they have these small groups. And in these small groups, they share their story. And these guys are in this sharing their story. They're sharing about all the issues and deep difficult issues that they've had in their life, you know, marriage issues, pornography issues, all those types of things, okay? And at the end of each story, 3. At the end of each story, people, the group, would speak into it, and then they would say, 'Let's pray for him.' It got down to me and the leader, and I looked at him and I said, 'I'll go. You're the leader.' I shared my story. I didn't know what I was going to share I shared how God— how the difficulty at times where people had sat and criticized and, and basically left me alone. And I got done with my story, and the leader says, well, okay, let's pray. And we bowed our heads to pray. Now, these are guys that had been speaking in into everybody's life. But there was total silence. And as I bowed my head, we sat there and nobody prayed, and nobody prayed. And all of a sudden, God spoke to me and said, 'I am enough, and I am sufficient.' Amen.

Amen.

And I woke, I got the guys up and I looked at them and I said, don't worry about it. I said, I looked at the leader and I said, Forrest, I said, don't worry about it. God just did something. And when I am, when we're done, I'll share it with you guys. And so we went on, but in that very moment, the very time of rejection that I had sensed over my life at times. God reached down, and because I understood my identity, I understood my freedom, God reached down, and there was a corner of my heart that God said, I'm enough, and I'm sufficient. And it was like he healed that broken corner, and it was done. Amen. And so God is enough. God is sufficient.

Yeah.

And he will heal our broken hearts. Amen.

Lord, let it be.

Mm-hmm. That's good. You know, we talked about, Amanda, you pointed out, uh, uh, being a husband, a dad, a leader, a male leader in our day and age, our culture. And even more so a male leader with the character of Christ who, um, you know, loves others sacrificially, is a high and holy calling. Um, amen. We're not left alone to do it. He is with us, he is in us, he can and does equip us. And it's so important that we be open to his healing touch so that we can represent him well. Dawson, thank you for living that out in the ups and downs of, of life these last decades. And thanks for continuing to invest in others to help them do that as well. You know, we always say it is it is for freedom, that Christ has set us free, and you're helping others to live in that freedom. Any average guy can live in their freedom in Christ. Thank you, Dawson, for exemplifying that. God bless you.

Oh, thank you, thank you.

Yeah, thanks for sharing with our listeners and our viewers on Stories of Freedom. God bless.

All right, boys, thank you so much. Today was great. I know the Lord has so much in it. I'm blessing y'all. I'll see you later.

All right, thank you.

God bless. Bye.

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