Webinar: Golden Rules Attracting & Keeping The Best Marketers Around

Welcome everybody to Brightbull's webinar Golden Rules for attracting and keeping hold of the best event marketers around. I am delighted to be joined by Karen Gittings from Amdas and Rupert Wallis from Media Contacts. These are two very good friends that I've known for many, many years that I have been in this industry. And they are probably the people that know the most about recruiting marketeers and in fact recruiting anyone for the event industry. So I would like to just open up for Karen to introduce yourself and then Rupert and then we can get cracking. They have a lot of really interesting things to talk about.

Hi. H. Yeah, hi. Hi everybody. That is. I have been in the industry for the events industry for many years, probably over 20 years now. My specialism is predominantly on the marketing and sales side. However, obviously I do cross over to other areas within the events sector and recruit everything really, from graduate level to director level, from very small niche conference or events businesses up to the big sort of FTSE 100 information providers.

Thank you, Rupert.

Yes, hello, my name's Rupert Wallace. Like Karen, I've been in the media recruitment space for about 20 years. The bulk of my work throughout all this time has been recruiting for events. That includes conference firms, exhibition firms, corporates and agencies. Marketing forms a big part of that. Again, really recruiting at all levels from training up to director level. I also run the company, so get a good oversight of what's happening in the various job markets and any trends and problems such as the ones we're going to be addressing today.

Brilliant. And for those of you that do not know me, my name is Ricardo Molina and I am the director of Bright Bull. We are an inbound marketing agency serving specifically the event industry business to business organizations and media publishing. Okay, so let's just get cracking. I want to give everyone like some context, right, so that we can kind of frame all the really valuable information we want to get out of Rupert and Karen. Right? So just to give a little bit of context. So apologies for that. So the context that we have on this session is we have an event professional, right, that is leading, is driving. An organization is responsible for a team or a team of professionals and they have a situation where a marketeer decides to leave. So what they're left with is a bunch of events that really needs to be marketed and nowhere to go. So the question is, where do you begin and how do you begin? So you can either ask colleagues or your network that normally leaves you with no real information. You start publicizing your search on social media and different mediums. You start talking to freelancers because that's obviously the fallback or you potentially want to speak to a recruitment agency. But this is kind of, most of the time, the last resort that they have. And the brief is very interesting. Okay, so I want someone intelligent, with a can do attitude that has some event experience, ideally three, two or three years. And I want someone that can hit the ground running as soon as possible. Right. I guess probably Karen and Rupert would laugh at this point in time and say, well, okay, wouldn't we all want that sort of individual? But the truth is that whatever option you choose, even if you're with a recruitment agency or whatever option you do, there's no, none of these options is going to guarantee success. So clearly the game has changed and that is the reason why we're having this really interesting conversation. So I want to frame this into the three attracting, recruiting and rotating. So let's just begin with that part. Karen, let's begin with you. And I want to give as much value as possible to all the attendees. And what would be your golden nuggets on attracting the right candidates and the right marketers?

I think first of all, I would look at your company presence. So how are you seen on social media platforms? Obviously we now have Glassdoor, we have Google reviews. It's really important that you have these good reviews because that is the first point that anyone's going to look at. And I know that with Glassdoor, they've kind of slightly got us over a barrel because if you want to respond, then you have to pay quite an expensive subscription per year. So that can be quite a hard road to go down if you haven't got the funds for that. But just make sure your current employees are writing good reviews. So that would be my absolute first point because that's what we all do when we buy any goods or go into anything. We look at our social media presence.

Social media reputation, basically.

Yes. Yeah, yeah. Then obviously following that, it's, you know, if you're going to write adverts and put those out, make sure that they absolutely match the job description, that there's no discrepancy between the two, obviously make them as attractive as possible. You know, the selling point is going into that business. The job is secondary. It's just really what the company's going to. What's the company going to offer me? What am I going to, you know, what am I going to gain from it, you know, and how, you know, it's that kind of the value isn't it and feeling valued and is that company going to offer me that stability and growth and training? So that really needs to be quite transparent from the start.

Okay, good. Rupert, what's any thoughts on that?

I agree with what Karen's saying. I think one thing I would add in though is perhaps a big error that employers are making at the moment is as you said, they wait till someone resigns and then think, okay, we've got to quickly hire now, we maybe only have a month, you know, the person's notice period. A smart way of recruiting is to actually consider yourself to be always hiring. And I'm a big believer in building up candidate pools, having a contingency plan. And I'd recommend in this very, very candidate type market, employers should be constantly meeting marketers and aiming to set up one or two meetings a day so that when they they do have gaps in their team, they've already got people they're in touch with who they could potentially hire and to be seen as a company that's doing well, that's hiring, that's always interested in meeting good people because firms that do that seem to be the ones that have the least difficulty hiring.

Good. And I think we have not talked about salaries. Obviously that is a key fundamental element of attracting the right person. What's your view? What has happened to salaries in the industry? Obviously they have gone up and many people think they haven't. So any thoughts on that, Rupert?

Yes, back in 2008 when we had the big recession, the going rates for a typical event marketing manager, so sort of three, four years experience would be around 30, 35 grand basic and then some sort of bonus on top. Now what I saw was for nine years that didn't change. If you're hiring the same person last spring you'd pay the same as you would in 2008. There was no wage inflation. Then the economy continued to recover and suddenly this tight spot for hiring came in and wage inflation happened all at once. So around last summer, last autumn, typically salaries went up about 15%, which if you think about it, it's about one and a half, 2% annual from going back to 2008. Now that caused a lot of people out. You know, we're still occasionally getting clients wanting to pay 30, 35k for a marketing manager, not realizing they need to pay more like 35 to 40k. So that has happened and it needs factoring in or they're simply not going to be able to secure these people.

All right, so I think kind of one fundamental thing is the salaries that very event leaders have been paying, probably most of the event leaders have been in the industry for about 10 years at least, or they're probably now running their own businesses, is that they need to factor in the salary increase. Karen, would you agree with that? Yeah. Is that band kind of about right? Okay, good. Now, I guess another question around attracting. So what. What are the methods of attracting the right candidates? Obviously, we've said initially, okay, you ask your friends, you ask your network, you go on LinkedIn, you have to pay everything. So what is it that's. Is there like the right formula of how do you publicize your posting?

Who are you asking? Either.

Yeah, either. But you go, Karen, is the right formula?

I think you have to spread the net. You have to make sure that you're on all the sites and that you are utilizing your network. I mean, obviously LinkedIn is obviously the best platform for that. And yeah, I think it's more so now than using the Guardian or anything else. But you do have to make sure that if you can and you have the resources, I would make sure that you're on all the sites.

Right. And obviously you have to pay whatever sum to amplify that posting, right?

Yes, you do. Yeah. And you've got obviously very targeted on LinkedIn as well. So you can use, you know, which can be, you know, really beneficial. But it boils down, you know, to your budget, really, doesn't it?

I see. And Rupert, how do you see that the right methods.

I would strongly advise any employers doing their own direct hiring to only do it through advertising or over the phone. I wouldn't send any LinkedIn inmails or electronic messages. That might sound odd, but the reason being, quite often we are called in to undo the mess when people feel they've been headhunting by approaching people electronically. And the problem is, with an electronic message, if you get no reply, you don't know whether it's even been read. And before long, you're almost spamming the whole market and word gets out that you look like someone desperate to hire who's having trouble filling their vacancies. Or at least if it's an advert, people are coming to you, or if you speak to them on the phone or face to face, you know, you have actually had a conversation and therefore it seems much more targeted. It's a little bit lower in the radar, so you don't sort of blow your chances as much.

I don't mean email, I meant on the recruiter campaign as well. So it's slightly Different.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, like, for instance, I've seen on LinkedIn a lot of recruiters now they're using video to, I guess to post their job posts. Should event leaders be using video to attract the right candidates? Rupert?

Yeah, I think it's a great idea. I was at a recruitment meeting with Informa not that long ago, and they've just released a YouTube video of what it's like to work there, what the company's like, and it really brings the place to life. You know, it's a company where some people know them well, others don't. Some think there may be a big corporate firm because they're a FTSE 100 company, but it just shows their personality, their energy, and I think it adds a lot more value. And anything like that in an advert will certainly help. Good.

And Karen, your thoughts?

Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I mean, yeah, connect have sort of led the way on that and it really, really does help that you've got that human touch.

That's amazing. And I guess, is there any, like, should it be on YouTube, should it be on LinkedIn or should it be long? Should it be. Is there any idea as to what's recommended on that front?

I would say two or three minutes. You know, anything longer than that, you're going to lose people's attention. Where it's posted initially doesn't matter so much. But the key is you've then got to publicize the fact you have the video. And that's when I would come back to LinkedIn, your own website, disseminating it to any recruiters who are acting on your behalf, making sure as much of your target audience see it as possible. Right.

So. And I think the interesting thing that I'm gathering here is that online reputation is absolutely critical because right now everyone can just go, if I'm gonna. If I want to work in Brightwell, someone can just go to Glassdoor and check my thing, my, I guess, my reviews and everything. How do you guard yourself from that online reputation? And is there any, is there any way to combat that or how to go about that?

Communication? I would say it's communication. It's, it's, you know, if you are, whatever you're doing, that's, if you're advertising and people responding, they need to have a response back, whether they, you know, they're being rejected or not. So, yeah, it's about just keeping that dialogue open. Otherwise, if you don't respond to people, if you ignore them, that's when they get disgruntled. You know, they have to have a reason. They've made the effort to approach you. You should have the decency to go back to them and just say, thank you so much for your time, but just not quite right for this role because further down the line they may be right for something else.

Okay. And anything to add on that, Rupert?

Yeah, I think online reputation really boils down to treating people well, whether they're your current employees or people, as Karen says, who you interview. Occasionally people don't work out. And whether that's in an interview or someone you've already hired. And inevitably if they're then treated in a bad way, they're going to make far more noise on social media than somebody who's been a perfectly good employee who tends to leave. So it's about, you know, someone has to leave, treat them well, you know, focus on the positives, don't burn bridges. And the same in interview. I once had to advise a FTSE 100 company on overhauling their entire recruitment process. And where they had been going wrong was testing candidates before they interviewed them. And if you did the test, you were guaranteed an interview, but they'd look at the test results before the interview and rule people out before they'd even come in the room. So some of those interviews only lasted five minutes. Now if you do that, people are going to go away thinking pretty negative thoughts about your company and it hadn't occurred to them. So it's just thinking putting yourself in your employee or candidates shoes sometimes.

That's very interesting because I was reading some statistic that says that 50% of potential recruits made their mind in the first interview. So basically the first impressions that companies will need to, that they need to actually make a huge amount of effort to make a good impression because obviously candidates, it's a candidates market, they could just basically decide and leave. And one element that I always think about all this situation, the old school event leader and the new school event leader. So I always think about old school where if you put a posting out there for a job and then you request a cover letter and the CV that needs to kind of meet certain criteria. What are your thoughts on if someone does that? Do people. Obviously times have changed. So our cover letters, long cover letters and tailored CVs and all that kind of sort of stuff still applies.

I think it depends on who you're applying to as a recruiter. You know, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I very rarely read cover notes. I might receive 50 to 100 CVs a day. So I don't have time to go through all the COVID notes. I have roughly one minute to look at each CV and make a judgment call on whether I'm going to take that one further or, you know, to a telephone interview or not. But if you're applying to maybe quite a niche company who are getting quite low amounts of ad response through, then they might quite like a tailored cover note. So I think you pick and choose accordingly.

Right. And Karen, what are your thoughts on cover letters?

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree with Rupert. It's down to timing. Unfortunately, we don't have enough hours in the day sometimes with graduates. If they've written, I do like to read them if they, you know, just kind of gives you a bit of an idea if they haven't really got a lot of experience, what they're like. But generally now I would just, just about scan them. So, yeah, I think it is okay.

Yeah, that's very interesting because I have also advised clients that, you know, if thinking about COVID letters is a little bit kind of, you know, it's another step in the process internally. But also half of the people wouldn't bother to actually even write a cover letter. And then I think that shouldn't be a determining factor of whether they should call someone for an interview or not. But that's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. Okay, that's, that's very useful. And on that front, now let's just talk about the aspects of. Okay, so you, let's just assume you've done all the right things on social media, you posted in the right elements, you basically, you've done all your homework at the first stage. Now let's look at the states of how do you recruit them? So basically, the interview process and pace, what would you say, Karen, are like key determining factors or golden? Your golden nuggets on recruiting that particular candidate that might be applicable.

Timing, that's a problem at the moment. Clients are taking too long between processes. Some of them are hanging on, waiting for that, you know, want to have a benchmark and more CVs across and willing to lose a candidate in the process. So I would say, you know, they have to. There has to be key steps that they do know exactly. Once you had your interview, you will be followed up within, I don't know if it's 48 hours and that's great. But from first to second stage, there shouldn't really be any longer than five days.

Right.

You know, there should be, you know, real processes in place because that's the way the market is, it's moving so quickly at the moment. If you have a really good candidate and you really like them, why do you need to see someone else? Why do you have to have feel that you need to see the market?

Right, okay, so that's the timing, the pace.

Anything else, it's just being. To me it's just been transparent the whole way. So you know everything. So the candidate is aware of every single step, you know, through to the author. All the details are there is exactly what was given in the first place. There's no kind of change in the, in the offer itself and speed. But as obviously the quality's got to be there with the speed, the pace.

Basically the pace of recruitment between one second or third. Okay, Rupert, any thoughts on that? What will be your golden nuggets?

Well, I think one thing that we recruiters do that perhaps when companies are hiring directly they don't do enough of is manage the interview process. What I mean by that is I think one of the most disappointing things that can be happens for a company is they interview somebody they like, they book them in for a second interview and then get a phone call saying, sorry, I found another job. That's always really disappointing. Now how we deal with that as recruiters is if we have a good candidate, we will be speaking from every single day finding out, okay, since your last interview, what else has happened? Who else has approached you? Do you have any other interviews coming up? Are there any deadlines or time pressures we should be aware of? And I think companies when they're hiring directly often don't do that. You know, they just book something and assume it will happen. But they really have to be on top of good quality people and make sure that they're ahead of their competition.

With any timings that's very useful. So, meaning, like even if there is an official second interview, let's say taking place in the next three to four days, organizations or from the comp. From the hiring organization, they should still kind of try to keep in touch through them and saying, how's everything going? What stage are you on? Etc? Etc.

Yes, exactly. Because let's say, for example, I pick up a new event marketing candidate who a company has got a second interview booked for in four days and I get the candidate to tell me that, well, I will get them in front of my client today and my client will do their second interview tomorrow. So they would be hired before that second interview in four days would have happened.

Right.

They need to be ready to fight against that by employing similar tactics.

I see, I see. Because basically, and I think with both of you, we've been through processes where we're just going to try to call the second person and they're gone. And then we have to. Just out of my end, you know, we have to start all over again. And it's actually very, very frustrating. Now I just wanted to ask about the right number of interviews to say hire a candidate in this context, someone in events, a marketeer or a salesperson, everything. What is the right number of interviews that they should do and another kind of side one, should they do a test? I am a big. Or now I'm considering that I'm a big fan of doing tests, competency tests. What's your thoughts on that, Karen?

I don't think there should be any more than two stages unless there is a. Sometimes you have a bit of formality where you have to speak to the CEO, etc. But I think it should be a two stage. I think Project Second Stage is very good. It gives them an idea of the product they're working on and how to approach that. And especially with marketing, more than any other area, I would say. So yeah, one or two stages, no more.

Okay. And Rupert, any different thoughts from those about 12 interviews plus a potential competent.

I agree with no more than two stages. One tip I would give listeners though is if you have a particularly urgent hire to make. One tool I sometimes use is to say to my client or my candidate or if I'm hiring myself as an employer, come in for your first interview in the morning. If that goes well, we want you to be around for the afternoon because we'll do the second interview the same day. You can then meet the team at the end of the day and make a decision by the morning. You can get people on board that quick if you organize yourself.

I think that's actually a very good idea. Would you say that it's recommended basically in this day and age is recommended that if it's the CEO, if it's whoever is basically hiring and they might need the views thoughts of someone else within the organization is to literally book themselves the whole day so that they can run through all of the interviews in one go and I guess try to be more efficient because that way they basically give it no room for people to actually even kind of think about if whether they want to join the organization or not.

Well, they need to still think about whether they want to join it. You know, we're not bullying them into joining you. Can you can test close that and check them as the day goes along. Right. And you can put in a bit of a break, you know, why don't you go out for lunch for a couple of hours or something like that. But, but it's steadily moving things along towards a conclusion which then cuts out your competitors, which is very important. And yeah, I mean if the person buys into you and you've got a good offering then it, then it can be done. And I've noticed in the current market, I think we've got three clients in the next week doing interview days, precisely doing that and it's something that's really coming back into force at the moment. So certainly something I'd advise if possible.

Right. And one question on the element of okay, so you're gonna have your interview days and everything and that. Good. So should you, should you get people to just literally, if they have experience, should that be a factor of saying no? Because obviously let's just assume, you know, not all event businesses out there are the informas, the UBMs, you know, like the massive or the huge media publishers. Then probably you're talking about organizations. 1 million, 2 million pound or 5, you know, between 2 and 3 and $5 million revenue is now compulsory do you think? Is it compulsory? Should recruiters be so specific about the level of experience and they're able to market events to hire the right candidate?

I would say that, I mean one of the things I encourage people to do and I again do myself as an employer is if there's a vacancy that you are going to struggle to fill and you know from experience it's difficult and maybe you're after someone with two or three years experience, you have to factor in that it might take some time to fill that role or you may not even be able to fill that role. So one argument is to think well, could I just hire a trainee immediately? And in the time I've been spent looking to hire someone I could have actually got them up to speed and trained them and filled the gap another way which also gives you a considerable cost saving because you're paying a loan. One argument is to think well, could I just hire a trainee immediately? And in the time I've been spent looking to hire someone I could have actually got them up to speed and trained them and filled the gap another way which also gives you a considerable cost saving because you're paying a lower basic salary.

Right. Obviously you have to then factor in that you're going to have to spend time, you know, training basically another set of requirements from the recruiter, but that's very valid. Karen, any thoughts on that?

No, I agree. I mean, some roles are just taking too long because they're so specific about what they want in terms of years of experience. You just need to be more open minded. There are people out there that can pick things up very quickly. They may only have six months or 12 months and you want two years. But as long as they've got the grounding there and they're not completely wet behind the ears, then it shouldn't take up too much of your resources by, you know, training them into the business.

I think that that's kind of very, very interesting because I have been telling. I mean, I think so. One of the conclusions that I have come to with all this process when sometimes when we have to help clients as well find people, is like, look, you need to be open minded. Event marketing experience is no longer required, especially if you're looking at having someone that is innovative, someone that is hungry, someone that is going to be kind of really savvy at social media because we're talking about the millennials and everyone. So I think everyone needs to be kind of new. The new school event leader needs to be open to that because adding to the element, the experienced event marketeer normally has bad habits that are coming from the old school ways and that obviously is going to potentially kind of affect the new innovative things that they might want to do. That's been very useful. Anything in particular that we want that we might have kind of forgotten about, the. How to recruit them. I think that for me, the key elements here that I've heard so far is again, not being so pedantic about the experience, about the pace of recruitment is actually the, the massive new, different thing because and again, people have to be quick. And the truth of the matter is that these unicorns, probably you are not going to be able to find them. And then if you are being like so specific about who you want, you might be spending a lot of time trying to find this person and I think obviously trying to fill the role in the meantime or in the interim while you find your unicorn. That's kind of an interesting, an interesting element. Anything else that we can add before we move on to the next stage?

Go ahead, Karen, go ahead.

What we haven't covered is that following that recession where a lot of marketers were made redundant or moved out and started to take up, they kind of created an anomaly where there's a lot of contractors out there and a lot of clients are very Hesitant to take on good marketers that maybe been contracting for the last couple of years. And some of them are so good, but it's really hard because they haven't been anywhere longer than six months. Clients are thinking, well, are they not employable? Why hasn't somebody in those businesses taken them on? But that is not always the case. The marketers have enjoyed embracing new technology, going to new divisions, going to new companies, but now they want to settle. They're finding it really difficult and I think they're really, we're really missing, you know, a great source of untapped potential there.

Yeah, I think I would, I would add it's similar in a way, really, but as well as people contracting, one thing I've noticed in the event industry is quite often if people reach a stage in life where they have families, they find the event industry, the hours, the nature of the work makes it untenable. And quite often they decode and freelance or maybe even leave the industry altogether. Again, there's a big untapped pool of people there because if more employers are prepared to offer some sort of flexible arrangements such as a blend of being in the office and working from home or child friendly hours or a job share, then they can hire some great people out there who would love to do that.

Right. And I guess a question on that note, where do you find these guys? Because obviously they're not going to be all over LinkedIn. They're not kind of necessarily hunting or I might be completely wrong. Where are they?

Well, this comes back to what I mentioned earlier about regularly meeting people whether you're hiring or not, so that within your network you notice people are going to be having kids or maybe moving out of London and you keep in touch with them. You know, certainly that's something I've done over the years and got a good network of people all over the place from doing that. But failing that, you could advertise your job as a job share. I had a client recently fill a job where they were open to that idea. So they placed two adverts. One was as a full time permanent job and the other was a part time flexi hours job so they could fish from both ponds.

Right. And Karin, anything to add on that? Because I've got some thoughts here, but Karin.

Yeah, no, I agree with Rupert. I mean, fortunately for us we have been in the industry long enough to have that network and you know, candidates you might have placed 15, 20 years ago that, you know, have gone through and had families and only want part time. So yeah, it's just keeping in contact with those. But obviously if you're a small business, you might not have that network opportunity. So it is about just thinking outside of the box and like Rupert said, thinking, well, maybe could we, you know, utilise job sharing or just to be more flexible to get, you know, a really good candidate that will put the hours in they all, everybody does.

And I don't know if it's my marketing mind or my marketing brain, but all this that we have been talking about so far, like for instance, Rupert, you're talking about advertising one job as a full time job deal, one as a job share. So that's kind of to me in marketing terms, an A B split test. Right. So you're seeing where you're getting most traction and then I guess adjusting accordingly so you're attracting, you know, where you see more traction again with candidates. If you're talking about kind of try to do some closing questions to the candidates and again using some sales tactics to ensure that you understand where they stand and everything. So this is all kind of pointed to, it's just a normal kind of marketing process. Right. You attract, you convert them and then you keep them. Right?

Yeah, exactly. Sometimes the people are weakest at marketing themselves.

Right. And before we move on to the next bit, what about negotiations and hard negotiations is that like basically now hiring people becoming like when you reach the situation where you're like, you know, with estate agent kind of upping the ante and put in office, how much of that have you guys seen? Or is that common, uncommon? And how much should an employer should kind of be open to that.

Just going to depend on their budget, isn't it really?

Yeah, I think it's budget, but also most research, if you look at it, shows that most people don't change jobs for money. That's probably third down their list. They're normally changing jobs to improve on something to do with their job. So I think it's more about actually understanding what makes them tick than making sure you match your sales proposition for the role. Back to that certainly I've seen people hire, hire people offering them five, ten grand less than some of the other offers out there and still securing them because they've been smart about knowing which buttons to push.

Right. And Karen?

Yeah, no, again, agree with Rupert on that. Most people, it's training, it's all sorts of different things that come into play before. I mean, salary is a big part, but yeah, most of the time they move on just through other reasons of not being Developed, I think. Or yeah, the main one, I would say.

Okay, I think that's a very, very good kind of opening kind of door because obviously I was going to think.

I've done over the years and got a good network of people all over the place from doing that. But failing that, you could advertise your job as a job share. I had a client recently fill a job where they were open to that ide. So they placed two adverts. One was as a full time permanent job and the other was a part time flexi hours job.

So they talk about the millennials, right, and how sometimes it's just difficult for us to understand them and the aspect of keeping and retaining. So we've got. Let's just then now move on to the retaining part. So you've placed the offer, you've hired the guy or you've hired the lady. Again, some statistics actually say that up to 90% of candidates in their first month or even the first week, they make up their mind whether they want to serve their notice or they want to leave on the first month, which is pretty scary. So let's just kind of. And I don't know if the millennials thing have something to do with it now or if it's linked or is not linked, but what will be the golden nuggets here on how do you.

Keep these fish from both ponds?

Right, Karin, anything to add on that? Because I've got some thoughts here, but Karin.

Yeah, no, I agree with Rupert. I mean, fortunately for us, we have been in the industry long enough to have that network and candidates you might have placed 15, 20 years.

Guys happy?

Who are you asking?

Aaron?

Okay, that's okay, that's fine. I would say for me, I found obviously they, you know, millennials prefer, you know, everything needs to be instant with them. You know, that's how they've, you know, everything that they do is all very visual. It's all about recognition. You need to sort of factor that in when you're taking somebody on that you need to make sure that the carrots are there, that the processes are there, that they are very driven. I must say that even though they're not what I would call being a mother, some of them are a bit of a pampered breed, but they are. I would not, I've noticed even with my own children, I've never, you know, the totally different mindset. They want more, they see more. And so you've got to factor that in when you take them on. It's not just about giving Them a job, it's about, okay, this is where you're going to be. We're going to sit down, we're going to do this in three months or six months, and really making sure that you follow that through because it just goes back to feeling valued and seeing results from that.

Rupert, what's your thoughts?

Well, I think go back a few years when I was a bit younger in work. It used to be that people would feel lucky they had a job and it was all about what do we need to do to keep the employer happy and progress within this company. Nowadays, the shoe is on the other foot. It's very much about what can we do to keep this person here and what do they want from our company? And I think the first way of dealing with that is to make sure companies are following the right sort of appraisal systems and career mapping for the people they're hiring. So one of the things, for example, I do when I'm hiring people is rather than set out what my plans are for them for the next two.

Years, I've gone through and had families and only want part time. So yeah, it's just keeping in contact with those. But obviously if you're a small business, you might not have that network opportunity. So it is about just thinking outside of the box and like Rupert said, thinking, well, maybe could we, you know, utilise job share?

I get them to set out for me what their plans are for the next two years and then we make a plan from that to ensure that it happens with regular milestones along the way so they get that instant gratification. You know, it could be what do I need to achieve in the next week as well as what do I need to achieve in the next year? So you make a sort of 12 year plan with regular check in points along the way, make sure that everyone buys into it and then that you keep whatever promises you make to help ensure it happens for them.

Which is kind of where I say, in many cases with my clients, when I say, well, there's a disconnect because you want someone with experience so that you can just literally throw them at the deep end and they can just get on with what they need to do. But sounds like now, even if, whether you're a millennial or not, or even where someone's coming from, you know, having children or have half family and everything, things have changed. So I need to kind of be able to so throw in someone on the deep end or just trying to basically off you go and do all the stuff that you've been doing for the last three to four years and don't ask me questions or just want results seems to be that that is not necessarily the right approach anymore. Would that be a fair statement?

Yeah, that's right. And also that sometimes employers. Well, quite often employers take a view when they're hiring. Well, we just need someone from a competitor who does the same job now. Yeah. I mean, from your employer's perspective, well, maybe that's what you think you do need. But where's the attraction for a candidate for that? Why do they want to change jobs just to do the same thing in a different office? You know, it's really got to be about mapping out their needs and making sure they're met and that they align with what you need as a company as well.

Anything on that, Karen?

No, I totally agree. It is about making sure that you are working together and both heading in the right direction. Otherwise why would you move sideways? Even if it's the same salary or more salary, it's just you're going to feel disgruntled and end up moving on again.

And then you're going to kind of be kind of. It's more detrimental towards the end because again, your events will suffer, your product will suffer and it's not good. And I think that what I am gathering, a big conclusion on the subject of how to attract and retain and keeping them is about you have to follow through, you have to deliver what you've promised. So you have to just literally publicize exactly what it says on the tin and deliver that. And I think the most important piece is that recruitment now, and especially with organizations that are probably five or 10 employees, it doesn't stop when you hire the person you really need. So training, support, one to one, whatever you want to call it. So that means that the CEO or whoever is responsible for hiring this individual is not going to. The job's not over, actually. It's the jobs where the job begins. Right. Is that fair?

Definitely.

Rupert, anything else you would like to add?

I think the only other thing, just on this sort of retention session, as we say, we've talked about how to sort of map things out and make sure it happens. I think it's just applying the equivalent of good customer service, really. You know, occasionally sitting down with the members of staff or just to be.

More flexible to get, you know, a.

Really good candidate individually and having the sort of relationship where you can ask them, how are things going?

We'll put the hours in. They all. Everybody does and I don't know if.

It'S my marketing mind or my marketing brain, but all this that we have.

Been, are you happy? Is there anything we could be doing better for you? Are you feeling challenged?

Is there anything talking about so far, like for instance, Rupert, you're talking about advertising one job as it would be.

More challenging for you. And I think a lot of employers let a problem brew up with someone and the first thing of it is when they resign rather than nipping it in the bud. And more often than not, the sort of things that lead people to resign could have been dealt with early on with just a frank and open conversation, right?

Being present, right? Being a proper leader, being like the proper person, that is kind of making sure that all the kids are all, I mean, I mean, I don't mean kids in any patronizing way, but making sure that you know, you are present, you understand what's going on at every part of your business. And again, the people that are driving or are going to be responsible and tasked to drive lots of attendance, lots of sales and everything into the business that's kind of very, very, very interesting. And I think we are, we can probably kind of open the floor, the room for questions. So if you have any specific questions, please send it through through the Q and A panel or through the, through the chat box. We'll be very, very delighted to look into and get Karen and Rupert to answer the questions. So I think to me the biggest conclusion while we start receiving the question is that in essence the way I see this and the advice that concluding from this is to any marketing, any event leader trying to recruit individuals would be that the new way of, the new approach to recruiting event marketeers or sales or sponsorship people is that you need to view it as a normal marketing campaign that you're doing. You need to the social media, you need to have your presence on social media, you need to have the frequency of your drops, you need to be able to do a B split, you need to be able to test different channels, you need to be able to test different job specs, you need to be able to test, I don't know, potentially some different brackets within your salary and your budget. So you're able to see if you're getting kind of any particular traction within certain areas. And most definitely I'm seeing that like the biggest trend is that you have to literally be quick and fast at recruiting the pay a full time job deal one as a job share. So that's kind of to me in marketing terms an A B Split test. Right. So you're seeing where you're getting most traction and then I guess adjusting accordingly so you're attracting, you know, where you see more traction. Again with candidates you're talking about kind of try to do some closing questions to the pace of recruitment has changed and it needs to be done in a cohesive and I guess you need to be quick and as Karen said it earlier, if you like someone, if you really, if someone really truly inspired you, what's really stopping you from making an offer to that particular individual? And I guess the element of retaining the individual is all about following through, is all about the training and is all about continuing and actually stepping up your effort to make sure that that person comes through. So thank you very much for that. So I've got some couple of questions come through.

So.

If I don't have the money to use recruitment agencies, where can I find the best candidates? And I think kind of we touched on that. But is there anything else that you guys want to add to that question?

I think one thing I would say, and I'm by no means saying that actually reasoning can use recruiters. I'm more thinking about the general theme here is there was someone recently who actually did use a recruiter, which was a bit by the by, but they weren't going to and they'd lost candidates.

And again using some sales tactics to ensure that you understand where they stand and everything. So this is all kind of pointed to, it's just a normal kind of marketing process, right? You attract, you convert them and then you keep them. Right?

Yeah, exactly. Someone who they needed to replace, what made them change their mind was not thinking or having the budget, but thinking how much money am I losing every month that this desk is unfilled? And I think for me that can be a real impetus not necessarily to use recruiters, but to think, okay, having an empty desk is a real business issue here, so we really need to give it our full attention because we're losing money every day that someone isn't sat there. And I think the main thing where people go wrong is they might place an advert or speak to a few friends or tell their staff, can you listen out for anyone? But if they're not going to use a recruiter, what they do have to be prepared to do is put some real spade work in and put a few hours a day into it and approaching people, phoning them up, running your ad, maybe doing a social media campaign and see it as an actual money making business function rather than just hope the problem solves itself.

That's kind of very wise, Rupert. Thank you. Karen, anything to add to that question?

Again, sometimes the people are weakest at marketing themselves.

Right. And before we move on to the next bit, what about negotiations and hard negotiations? Is that like basically now hiring people becoming like when you reach the situation where you're like, you know, with estate.

Agent, kind of agree with Rupert, really, you know, apart from everything we've discussed today about how your company looks on all the platforms and the advertising, you know, I know we, you know, the recruitment or recruiters does seem an expensive route, but when you actually outweigh the loss of, you know, your business hours, I mean, we know how many CVs we receive and how to, you know, how many of those are whittled down to interview stage. It's a very long process. So it's up, you know, if they've got the time, that's fine, but if they haven't, you know, we are a good route and we're not, you know, it's all free to start with. You can just see what's out there if that's, you know, see what the market's doing.

Right. Thank you. Thank you for that. I think obviously, whoever asked that specific question, I think we covered those particular elements earlier on and I think obviously social media always on upping the ante and putting offers. How much of that have you guys always recruited? I think that kind of will complement that. I think there's another question, but I'll probably just in is that common, uncommon, and how much should an employer should kind of be open to that it's not going to ask it because if we're using the wrong approach, what is the right approach? I guess that's what the whole webinar is all about. So this one here is, is this.

A just going to their budget? Isn't it really.

Sentiment for marketeers? What we've, I guess what we've been kind of talking through because we're struggling with sales and sponsors, that would the tactics be the same, Rupert?

Yeah, I would say largely speaking, they are the same. But this might not be what the person wants to hear. Be aware, from my experience in the current market, it's even harder to find sponsorship people than it is marketing people, because they are bringing direct revenue in that's measured and everything else from day one. And I think it's budget. But also most research, if you look at it, shows that most people don't change jobs for money. That's probably seen as perhaps the key Revenue generators companies are always going to third down their list. They're normally changing jobs to improve on something heavily after those people. And they, they won't just hire them when there's a gap. They'll hire them on an acquisitive basis just because the opportunity arises. So use the same tactics, but just be prepared if you're hiring a sponsorship person that the market is even more fast paced and aggressive than it is for hiring marketing people right now.

Right. So always, always on, always recruiting. And if you see it, if you.

See your unicorn, catch them to do with their job. So I think it's more about actually understanding what makes them tick. Yeah. Because they'll make you money. You know, even if you don't have a live vacancy, a good salesperson will go out there and bring money and you don't currently have. Great.

Karen, anything else on that?

Yeah, again, also look at other. You know, there are other sales roles out there that can be quite transferable. You know, there are some really good salespeople out there that might not have sponsorship that could easily move into that area. So just think outside of the box.

Okay, that's good. And I guess that's one question coming in is what is the bonus?

And making sure you match your sales proposition for the role back to that.

Incentive structure for a marketeer. What's working right now?

Certainly I've seen people hire, hire people offering them.

Karen.

Difficult to say really. It depends. It's from client to client. It really depends on the event that you're working on. Some of them will offer five, ten.

Grand less than some of the other offers out there and still securing them.

Because they've been offer 15% of your salary or it might be a percentage of each event that you're on. So I know with one of the.

Larger, larger smart about knowing which buttons to push.

Right.

And Karen, it was one and a half percent per event, but it really.

Depends on is one and a half percent of the revenue or the net revenue. The net revenue of the event. Okay.

Yes, yes. It really does vary quite a bit.

Right. So Rupert, what's your thoughts on that?

Well, I think what Karen's saying is about. Right, you know, it's Normally between about 15 and 20% of basic, however it's packaged up. Having said that, one thing I would say with the hundreds of people of event marketers we interview, virtually none of them.

Yeah, no, again, agree with Rupert on that. Most people, it's training, it's all sorts of different things, things that come into play before I mean salary is a big part but yeah most of the.

Time they move on ask about what the bonus package is. They all focus on the basic. Basically the bonuses are nice to have. So I wouldn't get too bogged down on that. I would more focus on just through.

Other reasons of not being developed.

I think are we paying the right basic and are we retaining people?

Exactly. And I think just remembering my days when I used to work for a.

Large the main one I would say okay.

And I think that's a very conference organizer and various organizers in some cases you used to the commission was not even an incentive because if you're working on a portfolio events some of those events are not doing great. It's not about three to four to six months until you see your bonus. So actually the commission structure was a demotivator instead of it being a motivator. So I think as marketeers we used to make or I'm saying are you very good kind of opening kind of door because obviously I was going to talk about the millennials right. And how sometimes I used to kind of burn all my, all my cells try to make everything work. So the reward should be kind of directly relevant to the effort that it's just difficult for us to understand them and the aspect of keeping and retaining. So we've got. Let's just then now move this kind of place in there. And I think when you're looking at the percentage of the salary based on certain KPIs it's kind of little bit more appropriate. But I think now marketeers overall are very happy that they're earning decent salaries. There was another follow up question that Rupert is the basic is about 40,000. Right.

For a marketing manager. So someone with sort of you know, four or five years experience. Yes, yes.

Typically 40,000 40,000 sterling. So probably us I'm just the person that's asked the question is based in Canada so it's about one to the retaining part. So you've placed the offer, you've hired the guy or you've hired the lady again some 50 50k right?

Well yeah in my experience for the US in Canada you add about 25% on to what the UK would be.

Yeah, that's correct because we did, we did that survey the other day where like salaries and obviously in Canada in America you have to factor in all these kind of healthcare benefits statistics actually say that up to 90% of candidates in their first month or even the first week they make up their mind whether it's etc etc and Overall, marketeers would be earning a much, much higher salary in America than in the uk. I think that's. I'm encountering that as a fact.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you very much. I think we've kind of reached the end of the other session, so thank you very much, Rupert. Thank you very much, Karen. The final thing that I wanted to ask, Karen, if anyone listening to this session today or in the future, if they want to speak to you, where should they find you?

Find me on LinkedIn or on AMDAS. Yeah, just KarenMDAS.co.uk.

Brilliant, Rupert.

Yeah, likewise LinkedIn. So my surname is spelt W A L L, I S. Otherwise my company website is media.

They want to serve the notice or they want to live on the first month, which is pretty scary. So let's just kind of.

And I don't know if the millennials think contacts.co.uk Brilliant.

Well, I am extremely grateful to you both and I am sure that the people that listened in and all those that are going to be listening to this session, I'm going to find it extremely useful. As, as I said, we will be sending the. And have something to do with it now, or if it's linked or is not linked. But what, what will be the golden nuggets here on how do you keep the recording to all of you? And also transcribing the pearls of wisdom and the golden nuggets into some kind of digestible format in all the usual kind of social media channels. But we will send that to you guys directly. So thank you very much for your time. Good luck. And until we see you next time in the next webinar, take care.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Thank you.

Guys. Happy?

Are you asking, Aaron? Okay.

Sorry.

That's okay. That's fine. I would say for me, I found obviously they, you know, millennials prefer, you know, everything needs to be instant with them. That's how they've, you know, everything that they do is all very visual. It's all about recognition. And you need to sort of factor that in when you're taking somebody on that you need to make sure that the carrots are there, that the processes are there, that they are very driven. I must say that even though they're not what I would call being a mother, some of them are a bit of a pampered breed, but they are, I would not, I've noticed, even with my own children, I've never, you know, the totally different mindset. They want more, they see more. And so you've Got to factor that in. When you take them on, it's not just about giving them a job, it's about, okay, this is where you're going to be. We're going to sit down, we're going to do this in three months or six months, and really making sure that you follow that through because it just goes back to feeling valued and seeing results from that.

Rupert, what's your thoughts?

Well, I think go back a few years when I was a bit younger in work. It used to be that people would feel lucky they had a job and it was all about what do we need to do to keep the employer happy and progress within this company. Nowadays, the shoe is on the other foot. It's very much about what can we do to keep this person here and what do they want from our company? And I think the first way of dealing with that is to make sure companies are following the right sort of appraisal systems and career mapping for the people they're hiring. So one of the things, for example, I do when I'm hiring people is rather than set out what my plans are for them for the next two years, I get them to set out for me what their plans are for the next two years and then we make a plan from that to ensure that it happens with regular milestones along the way so they get that instant gratification. You know, it could be what do I need to achieve in the next week as well as what do I need to achieve in the next year. So you make a sort of 12 year plan with regular check in points along the way, make sure that everyone buys into it and then that you keep whatever promises you make to help ensure it happens for them.

Which is kind of where I say, in many cases with my clients, when I say, well, there's a disconnect because you want someone with experience so that you can just literally throw them at the deep end and they can just get on with what they need to do. But sounds like now, even if, whether you're a millennial or not, or even where someone's coming from, you know, having children or have half family and everything, things have changed. So I need to kind of be able to. So throwing someone on the deep end or just trying to just basically off you go and do all the stuff that you've been doing for the last three to four years and don't ask me questions or just want results, seems that seems to be that that is not the kind of necessarily the right approach anymore. Would that be a fair statement?

Yeah, that's right. And also that you know, sometimes employers, well quite often employers take a view when they're hiring. Well we just need someone from a competitor who does the same job now. Yeah. I mean from your employer's perspective, well maybe that's what you think you do need but where's the attraction for a candidate for that? Why do they want to change jobs just to do the same thing in a different office? You know, it's really got to be about mapping out their needs and making sure they're met and that they're aligned with what you need as a company as well.

Anything on that? Karen?

No, I totally agree. It is about making sure that you are, you know, working together and both heading in the right direction. Otherwise why would you move sideways? Even it always the same salary or more salary, you're going to feel disgruntled and end up moving.