32. Having Smarter Sex with Emily Morse

Sweet friends, buckle up because today's episode may just change your relationship with your own sexuality and your own pleasure. Welcome to today's episode of Why Isn't Everyone Doing This? The show where we reveal the most taboo modalities that just may be the medicine that your soul needs to feel free. I am Emily Fletcher, Broadway showgirl turned meditation teacher turned author turned sex witch, and today I am delighted to share this episode with you so that we can solve the challenges that we are facing as a species. And have a great time doing it. Today's guest is Emily Morse, and we're going to be talking about why isn't everyone having smarter sex? Emily Morse is a doctor of human sexuality and the host of the number one sexuality podcast called Sex with Emily. She is on a mission to liberate the conversation around sex and pleasure, and her new book, Smart Sex, is teaching us how to do just that. She has helped millions of people around the globe learn how to communicate effectively and navigate the world of sex and relationships. And that's one of the things that I was so struck by in this episode is that all of the things that she says that will help us have smarter sex are the same tools that are going to help us to be more spiritually liberated and to just have an amazing life, period. So please enjoy this episode of Why Isn't Everyone Having Smarter Sex with Emily Morse. So Emily, Emily, I thought about titling this episode, Why Isn't Everyone Having Sex with Emily?

I love it. Clearly you should, you have to name it that.

But really, but then it implies all of us and I'm, I don't know that we have enough time.

They're gonna click on it.

Uh, but I'm so grateful to be able to have this time with you. Just selfishly, I think you're so magnetic and outrageously intelligent and so brave and so kind and so fun. And so selfishly, I feel excited to get to marinate and dance in your wisdom and in your transmission. And I'm really excited to talk about why isn't everyone having smarter Sex and what even smarter sex is. But before we get to that, I want to know, like, at what point in your life were you like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna do for a living— I'm gonna do for 20 years is produce over 3,000 podcasts on sex. I'm gonna become like the world's leading expert in amazing sex. Like, what— at what point in your life were you like, this is my calling?

Oh wow. Well, I was on a journey. I was having sex. I had sexual partners and I kept finding that my partners were always having a good time. My male partners, they were finishing, no problem having orgasms. And I wasn't. And that didn't seem fair to me, number one. Number two, I thought that something was wrong with me because everything I'd seen in media and television was man, woman, make out, have a great sex session, fall into bed, and everyone has explosive orgasms and fall asleep. And so I kept having this experience where like, I enjoyed sex. I enjoyed touch and cuddling and connection. But at the end of the day, I kept thinking, there's got to be something more here. I also looked at relationships and thought, and even I had the experience of being in relationship with somebody, and after about a year, 9 months, sex wasn't as hot. It wasn't as exciting. And then I used to always think, how do people stay in long-term relationship and still have incredible sex? So marrying those two thoughts, I just started talking to people about their sex lives.

And about how old are you at this point?

I was 35. Oh, really?

When you started?

Yeah.

Wow.

33.

Amazing.

So there I was. I had mostly been having performative sex, faking orgasms, doing what I thought my partner wanted, arching my back, moaning, always being down for sex, thinking that it wasn't okay to say no for sex because I'm also a perfectionist and a pleaser. Well, that makes someone a great for, for, for, for, you know, someone else performing sex for somebody else. Yeah, but not for me. And so I thought, you know what, like, this is, um, this is, this is, this is the time to figure out. And I don't want— and it didn't— it felt disingenuous too. And it felt like I was living this lie.

Yeah.

Because I was really good at sex. Mm-hmm. Right. As far as they're concerned. But it wasn't about my, you know, it wasn't for me.

So, do you know the Glennon Doyle quote in Untamed, which I have read 10 times? She says, I knew how to be wanted. I did not know my own want. And I feel like I am very much in that reclamation and in that discovery. Cause I'm the same, like former people pleaser, recovering codependent perfectionist, which is like a cocktail for not having a great sex life.

Exactly.

And so I'm so glad that you decided to like reclaim this for yourself. Yeah. So then, so then what happened?

So then what happened was I started talking to some people. I realized that I, and then I heard about podcasting. This was 2005. I'd started making a little film about it. I was a documentary filmmaker and then I heard about podcasting. What I loved about it was that it was audio, not video, because I I knew that people would be more open. There's a certain anonymity to audio. Hired a sound guy off Craigslist. I didn't, you know, he brought over sound gear. I invited a bunch of friends over. I was living in San Francisco at the time. It was in my living room. People in all stages of relationship and sexuality, gay, straight, married, divorced, dating online. And I just interviewed them one by one about their sex life and their experiences. And when you talk about the moment that I knew, I sat there for 6 hours. I didn't go to the bathroom. I didn't have a drink of water. I was just in the zone, in the flow. And I had this like download. I was like, oh, this is it. Like, this is the path to not only my healing, but the world's healing. And I just knew it. And I'd never had that certainty. You know what I likened it to, Emily? I likened it to everyone saying like, when you find the one, which I don't believe in, but you're gonna find the one. My drive was always about finding my purpose.

Mm-hmm.

Wasn't so much marriage and family, that was never on my list. It was like, how do I make change in the world to change myself, change others? And it was that like after 33 of working really hard all these years, I was like, ah, I found it. This is it. And I have never looked back.

Wow. That's the path. I love that story. And I love that you like equated it like, oh, I found the one, I found my purpose versus like this idea that you're gonna find some like completion soulmate, which I also think is a problem. Yeah.

No, so boring.

So why do you think that us healing our sex, why is us having smarter sex going to help save the planet, heal the planet. Wow. And you can talk as big or as spiritual as you want.

I mean, I could go really big right now, but I'm going to start with that our sexual health and sexual wellness is an integral part of our overall wellness and our overall health. And most of us are still very much in the dark about sex. And let me explain what I mean by that, because when I talk to you, you're like, but sex is everywhere now. You know, everyone's talking about it. You can get porn, you can look anything online. When I talk about smart sex, I talk about people, you know, feeling good in their bodies, learning how to receive and give, eradicating shame, trauma, like all the things that are keeping us from pleasure. Because when we have smarter, healthier, more pleasurable sex, it impacts all the areas of our life. So we feel more embodied, more connected, and have more pleasure. And that's It's just so important. But since, and I wish I could tell you it was different, and this is what keeps me going. You asked me earlier, like, I do ever get tired of talking about it? And it's a lot of talking. I'm always changing things up. But the truth is, every time I talk to a young person, and that's where a lot of my heart is, or even an older person, and they say, I've still never had an orgasm. I have a lot of pain during sex. I no longer want to have sex. What's wrong with me? Am I broken? And this still happens every single day, that we don't know our parts. We don't feel it, you know, it's okay to explore. Accept pleasure. So there's still a lot of work to do. But I think that the more we could look at sex consciously and have intentional sex and conscious sex, that will absolutely heal the world. Because think of what the repression of that has done. I mean, look at war, right? If you look at war in, in the Middle East right now, it's all about repressing sexuality. And I think that, that we're seeing that. So that's just one part of it. But think about other things that we do in our lives as a result of having that repression. We might act out more violence against women. Just more, you know, child pornography. Yeah. And rape because we don't have an understanding about what it means to be a sexual being. And then in my book, Smart Sex. So when I was writing the book, I was like, okay, I've got all the tips because mostly people come to me for quick tips, right? Not— I mean, initially that's how it started. I'm like, I can give anyone the next step. Like you want the position, you want the toy, you You want the, you know, the thing to say, I've got you. But the truth is, that's just going to get you so far. That might take you to the next step, but there is a holistic approach. So, these 5 pillars are really about that. There are all these factors that are going to contribute to you having better sex, and they all matter. So, you might have all the tips and tricks, but if you're not embodied and you're completely disassociated during sex, well, that's not going to be the smartest sex you can have. That's the first pillar, is embodiment. And the next one is your health, you know, and that's your mental physical health. So perhaps you're taking a certain medication. You know, so many women are on the birth control pill or on, you know, SSRIs, and men too. You know, my audience is always half men, so I speak to everybody. They might be impacting your sex drive, your libido. If we're not moving our bodies and eating healthy, we're going to have a challenge with blood flow. Well, we need blood flow to have pleasure and feel it like orgasm and ecstasy through our body. The third one is collaboration. Like how well are we communicating and collaborating? Do we ever talk about sex? I can't tell you, Emily, how many people have said, I've been with my partner for 20 years and we've never talked about our sex life. We just sort of close our eyes and hope for the best. Or we talked about if we're gonna do it or we're not gonna do it. So there's the external talking, but then there's the like, what's my messaging around sex?

Wait, I'm like shook right now. I need a minute. Process this.

Process, Em.

Because I'm, I live in such a, silo. I live in such an echo chamber, like, living with Regina and being best friends with Layla and my amazing partner Adam. And like, the idea of having an experience and not recapping about it, not sharing about it, not being like, oh, I love this, but this felt like an edge, or like— that feels so incomprehensible to me. And Regina has baked into her work the idea of favorite frames, and that unappreciated good turns to shit. And so if you're not appreciating the things that are coming to you, then it actually like rots. And that if you don't digest and express the good, then you don't have space for more. It's like taking a poop. It'd be like eating all day and never pooping. Yeah, it's like you actually have to release that to make space for more pleasure. So the idea of a couple being married for 20 years and never talking about their sex life, good, bad, or otherwise, seems incomprehensible to me. And yet I know that that is likely the norm.

I had a guy who called me the other day, a friend of a friend, and he's like, I'm with this girl right now and she can only have— he's, he's wildly successful, has bought and sold a million companies. Like, people revere this guy. And he said, I'm about to marry this woman. We're engaged, but she'll only— and this is just so— I mean, she'll only have sex with me when she's drunk because she just feels like she has to numb. And I'm not sure what to do about it. But I told her that I was, you know, I told her that, you know, I wanted to talk about it. And she said she won't talk about sex. So like, that's just someone like kind of in my circle. So I'm in a bubble too, like in my world and what I've been doing. But I realize, and then I talk to young people too, you know, young people, 18, 19 in college, same thing. The women are like, I've never had an orgasm. I've never masturbated. I can't talk about sex. So it's like, while there's been movement, people like Regina and yourself and Layla and myself, most of the world is still like, it is a do not go, can't talk about it. They, you know, so there's still a lot to be done.

And I mean, I thank you for blazing the trail and for me giving people not only the permission, but also the tools to talk about it. Okay. Okay, so we've got 3 pillars. The first one is embodiment. Embodiment. And then we've got mental and emotional health, and now we've got collaboration, right?

Okay, so collaborating. And then the next one is self— is self-knowledge. How well do I know my— do I know what my turn-ons— do I know what's required for me to be in the mood for sex? How does the room have to be? How does my partner have to touch me? What time of day? We, you know, there's a lot a lot to be said for like sex knowledge. Like just looking back at your history, what are the 3 most memorable times you've had sex? And what did that do for you? How did, what do you remember? What was going on in that moment? And so it's like knowing our desire inventory. Like I have something in the book called your desire inventory. Like just, do you have to have a conversation with your partner? You know, do you have to feel connected? Do the kids need a babysitter? Like there's just, we think that sex should just magically happen and maybe it does at the beginning, What's our knowledge around our sex? And, you know, that's important. And then we have acceptance, self-acceptance. And that really is about accepting. That's the confidence part. Do I accept my body where I'm at today? Do I accept my experience level? Am I okay with, you know, who I am as a sexual being? And let me tell you this about Sex IQ. We never get there. You don't get a score. Like, you're not going to be like high on Sex IQ and your life's over. It's more like I created these tools so at any moment when somebody isn't feeling desire, they're not feeling turned on, they're not having an orgasm, they can kind of look at that and go, okay, well, I collaborated, I talked about it, I feel great in my body, but, you know, I actually feel like I've been dissociating a lot during sex, so I could work on that. And I'm on that medication, maybe I should talk to my doctor about it. Do I really need to be taking this? So we can sort of work around and figure it out because there's so So many layers to arousal. It looks different for all of us. Like what might turn me on might not turn you on. What turns our partner on might not turn us on. And, but if we never talk about it in a healthy way, mm-hmm. And a lot of what I do over these years is communication.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I really, I've got scripts in the book because it's like, people are so terrified about talking about that. They literally, I'll tell 'em what to say. Like, well, back up. Well, how do I do it? When do I do it? Where do I do it? Because it's so fraught.

So, okay, first of all, thank you for writing this book. And so when you said with sexual IQ, we never get there, we never arrive, meaning that it's just like a barometer for like, I'm hot today, I'm cold today.

You're never gonna be like a barometer, the perfect temperature, and you stay there. Exactly. Because it's like, I, I still work on my sex IQ. Like, I'm never done learning either. That's the thing. Like, I'm always like, you know, different stages of life. I'm always changing what I'm into, you know, 10 years ago I'm not going to be into now. So it's really just a barometer for people to get comfortable and realize that it's not about— like, you used to think, I'm going to I'm going to be the best lover ever. I'm going to be great at sex. So I'm going to learn to give the best blowjobs and I'm going to do the sexiest things in the bedroom, or I'm going to go as long as I want to. That's not what makes a great lover, right? There's just so many components to that.

What do you think makes a great lover?

I think what makes a great lover is being authentic and being connected, being present, being curious, being compassionate, being in your body. Be willing to laugh together, know that sex is not a linear act. It might never look the same. Being open, not judgmental, being willing to learn with every partner. You know, a lot of people are worried that like, I hear this all the time. My, my partner's been with so many other people than I have. Am I gonna be a bad lover? And it's like, your sexual history really doesn't have anything to do with your, with being a great lover. It's about your connection with the person in front of you. Like, can we go there? Can we, can we lock in? Can we connect? So I believe it's in— everybody can, can be a great lover, you know, starting at this moment.

Well, what I'm noticing about all these tools, like even the, the fifth pillar in the book, right? It's acceptance. And what you just said, what makes a great lover, right? Compassion, acceptance, communication, presence. These are all spiritual tools, right? Like if you, let's say we're not even talking about sex at all, but you're taking care of your physical and emotional health. You are embodied, you accept yourself as you are.

Yeah.

You're collaborative and communicating. You're going to be a happy person, you're going to be a healthy person, and you're going to have the foundation to connect to Spirit. You're gonna have the foundation to connect to the Divine because of all of these tools. And it feels like if that foundation is there and you feel so right and whole and good with yourself, then putting that with another person who's hopefully doing the same thing, it's like you're creating a bigger antenna. And I love the quote of like, where two or more are gathered, God is present, right? And so it's like you have then a really, uh, fertile ground for the divine to drop in. So this is— this has been the area of my expertise. You know, let's not say expertise, let me say exploration over the last 3 years. I'm very far from an expert, but, but deep, deep exploration and studentship. And it is how can we, one, utilize our sexual energy to manifest? Like, how can we use this creation energy inside of us to create not only the life of our dreams but the world of our dreams? But also as a spiritual practice, And so I'm curious, like, in your work and in your dealings with couples, like, what's the most wild, transcendent, sort of spiritual experience anyone has ever shared? Because like, when I ask people, how do you feel after you orgasm, usually it's like connected, open, pure, holy, free, blissful. You know, rarely do I hear like dirty, wrong, bad, shameful, dark. We're all, you know, yeah. And so it's just reminding people that there is sanctity in this, there is sacredness in this, that there is God in this, and that we are in fact transcending our identity and connecting with totality. I mean, the French call it la petite mort, like orgasm is practicing dying, same as meditation, we're practicing dying. And so I'm just curious if you've ever heard a story or someone's been on the show or you're like, oh, we had this moment and it felt transcendent.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I, you know, it's so funny, after all these years I do, I don't have like, I'm trying to think of a specific moment, but I know that when couples couples do a practice together, you know, maybe they're just studying, you know, tantra, or they're, they're working with like an embodiment coach or a sexological bodyworker, or, you know, that couples talk about this place of, you know, connection and change in their relationships that they've never had before. I know I've worked with some couples on touch and just some basic tools around like eye gazing, for example, which is the most— I mean, sort of a basic, you know, like a place to start. But when you tell couples, like, and I see this all the time, that's why it's so less about the big experience. It's more about the little things that couples can do. So if I tell a couple to sit there and look into each other's eyes for 3 minutes and I set an alarm and they're doing that, it's like they might never have done it before, maybe for 10 seconds on their first date or 20, but for 3 minutes and you're staring and then you realize after you look into each other's eyes, right? Our breath starts to sync up and we feel that you see tears well up. You see, you know, this connection before we even get it to any of the touch, just from that practice of breath and eyes.

Yeah.

So couples who do just that alone, it's a game changer.

And then you're starting from that transcendent space.

And then you start, and then they're already, then they're in their bodies, and then they can start. And some things that people realize is that, coming from another couple that I worked with, you know, the woman was much more in her performative space sexually. She felt that she didn't know how to receive. And this is a big thing I hear from women, that it's very hard hard to receive. You said this for yourself too, pleasure, and to let go, because so much about having pleasure and orgasm is truly a letting go and being in your body and allowing whatever comes in to release. And if you are living a life where it's about giving to people and your partner, it can be just like a challenge. So the practice of, you know, just having a couple— a woman, I, I had her do this exercise of being like the bossy masseuse. And so she has to to tell her partner specifically what she wants. He starts touching her. So they get a massage table and he touches her. And this is actually a practice that a sexological bodyworker named Dolly Josette did with me. And so this first, the practice of teaching a woman, and it could be a man too, but saying to herself, like, you have to tell your partner in this moment on the table what you like and what you don't like. And if your whole life has been around, that feels good, whatever you're doing feels good. So to see them go through this, like, I can't do it, I can't, I don't know what I want, because there is a point to the point where if you've spent your whole life giving, you actually don't even know what you like. You don't know how to receive. So that process of like the anger and the, and people feeling like, I can't do this, but then breathing, it's always about breathing and being present. And then being able to say, I don't like the way you touch me there. That has never felt good to me. Could you please go slower? And then actually seeing her get into her, like her rage, kind of rage around it too, but then power and then becoming more embodied and her being able to, after about 15 minutes, say exactly what she liked.

Mm-hmm.

Like saying like, I've actually never liked the way you've done that, done this. Thing, but I really want you to kiss my neck slowly. I want you to slow down with the way you're touching my inner elbow, because we also have these exercises of touching for your pleasure where you close your eyes and your partner touches you, and then you touch that. So closing your eyes and being able to give feedback and take in. So I would just say with couples, these basic embodiment connecting practices help them more than any other sex tip that they can get. Learning to be in their body.

This feels so big. So this is an exercise called the bossy masseuse. Yeah, but it's actually the massage— the receiver of the massage, right?

Yeah, the bossy massage.

I love that. And I love this so much because even in teaching manifesting, so many people say to me, Emily, I don't know what I want. I love— I would love to manifest, but I don't know what I want. And I oftentimes will say like, hey, how in touch with your sexual desire are you? Because I find that once— and this is for all genders, but I find especially women is that if they don't know what they want sexually, then it's very hard for them to know what they want in their lives. And like you said, they've become so good at serving and doing and pleasing and taking care of everyone else that they've really forgotten to ask themselves what they want, like, in their lives or in their bodies. And I found that, like, once they start to tune into, actually, I don't want to have sex tonight, actually, I do want you to slow down, actually, you know, whatever it is, then we become— it's almost like we just, we believe that we deserve the desire in our lives. Like, we're willing to name that external desire as well. But that's tough when you're being a CEO and a mom and a, and a partner, and, and you've been conditioned to think that your job is to please everyone else. So as I was coming in and preparing for this interview, there was 3 things that kind of like societally, that selfishly I want. And I think that if I, if they existed, I personally would be having better sex and then the world would be having better, smarter sex. And they are safety, consent. And then the ability to turn yourself on. So when I think about, like, you know, just I look around, like, I don't think people feel safe sexually. Um, I'd say men and women, all genders really, certainly trans people, certainly non-binary people. Like, not that many people feel safe sexually. And then because that's created this sort of predatory sexual society, certainly women feel like they are being preyed upon And then there's this like shutdown, and then, and then it just proliferates the prey and predator cycle.

Yes.

And then consent, like, I'm so grateful that like the teenagers and people in their 20s are talking about consent now, but I was in my 40s before it became like consent was like a part of my dialogue and my culture. Yeah. Like to even stop to be like, do I want to touch myself?

Yeah.

Does my pussy want to be touched right now? Like, and, and I imagine that that's probably still kind of a far-off idea for a lot of people, that you could say no. You could say no to your husband, you could say no to your boyfriend, and that first we have to check in with consent with ourselves, and then turning ourselves on. So I know that those are three really big topics.

Big topics. They're all great, and we have so much to say about them.

But let's start with safety. Like, how do you feel— like, how would smarter sex help us to create a culture of safety around sex? And, and that means safe to express, safe to express desires, safe to be in your turn-on. Because I think so many men are afraid, well, I don't want to go after someone because I don't want to be perceived as a predator. I don't want to be in my sexual energy because I don't want someone to feel afraid of me. And then I see women not wanting to be in their sexual energy because they don't want it to be taken advantage of or preyed upon. And like, all of this is moving us away from the goal. So how would you say we reverse that and move into a space of sexual safety So safety is a huge component of having smarter, healthier sex.

And in fact, when we feel safe, we are able to have more pleasure and more orgasms and all that. So it really is an important cornerstone of your sexual health. And so safety is like, is so like, and there are so many, there's just the, am I with a person that makes me feel good? Do I trust this person? I mean, you were always hearing of people in toxic relationships and this person going to stay and go and stay or go, and we feel like we're addicted to something that's unhealthy, and we definitely don't feel safe. So those kind of relationships, if we can just ask ourselves, do I feel safe with this person? Is it someone that I feel like has my heart, will respect my body, will make me feel good, cares about my pleasure? So I think that these are really important questions to ask yourself about either whether you're manifesting a new relationship, or it's a relationship you're in, or somebody you're dating. Do you trust this person? And you'd find that like most people would think, of course I would trust the person I'm with, but there's a lot of people who don't, or they're in a relationship where they're like, I don't know if this person's gonna cheat or if they're gonna actually say what they said they're gonna do. People don't follow through on their promises to you. You know, even if they're always late or not great with money, like there's a lot of different areas that safety can come into play. And if we taught sex education in a meaningful way that is more holistic and accurate, 'cause a lot of the sex ed we teach, especially in the United States, if we teach it at all, isn't even accurate. So you back all that up, but we're empowering young people when they're learning about sex with the truth about sex, that it isn't just about STIs and getting pregnant, but it's about like a deep pleasure and then going into consent. Like consent feels, this has gotten this bad rap, like, okay, now we're teaching consent. Am I supposed to like, you know, make, before I make out with someone, like, is this okay? Can I touch you? Like, that's such a buzzkill. But the thing about consent is that also lends itself to so much safety.

Yeah.

Because if you have consent by someone, you feel safe. You could say, can I kiss you? You know, or you could say like, God, I keep thinking about kissing you. And how would that feel to you? Like, it's all in the delivery and the way you say it. Like, I can't stop thinking about what it would be like for my lips to be on your lips. Like, how does that sound to you? Ooh. You can make consent sexy. So, right.

Let's make a t-shirt, make consent sexy again. Yeah. And even accelerated consent, right? Like that you're like, okay, just because I'll let you touch my arm does not mean you can kiss my neck. And so, so it's like, if you're gonna keep asking, if each new thing we wanna check in on, we, we better make it sexy or that it is going to be a buzzkill. And I love what you just said of like, how would you feel about that? Mm-hmm. Which is, I love, like, can I kiss you is sort of like extracting, right? It's like, can I do something to you is a different question than like, would you love to be kissed right now?

Yeah. How did that feel? Yeah. Is your body— what's your body say to that? Like, is it hell yes, hell no? And I love the building consent slowly. Like, that's just a hot thing to do. And it's also a great practice because if people are listening, they're like, oh, I, I'm already in this place. Our sex life is already kind of rote. So we're doing the same thing. Take intercourse off the table, take penetration, whatever you're doing, and start slow again. Kiss each other before you move to any other area. Say, how would you feel if I, you know, how would it feel if I took your shirt off? How would it feel if I, you know, slowly undressed you? How would you feel down on you. I mean, like, that is just so hot. And it's that slowness around sex that I really think where a lot of us can find our turn-ons. Because for many of us, and I know for myself too in the past, it— sex moves so quickly. Yeah, because being with male partners, they— it escalates because they get their erection and they're ready to go. And if you understand anything about female sexuality is that, you know, it, our sexual energy takes, you know, there's a, there's, there's steps, there's a process and there's, it takes a while to build, to feel, to feel this safe, to feel that, do I actually want this? Is this a yes? Is it a no? But in our culture, it's like, he's ready, then I gotta be ready. So there's been such a fastness to sex. So I think like slow sex, you going 5 times slower than you usually do, just remembering that could be such a game changer for your eroticism. And then that would lead to turning ourselves on. I mean, if we can't turn ourselves on, how is anybody else gonna be able to step into that role?

Mm-hmm.

And that is probably the most important work we can do.

Well, I wanna like bridge these two topics because I feel like the consent, you know, obviously is connected to safety because you're checking in and I love the way you're framing it of like, how would that feel to you? Because then the person receiving has to really check in, be like, do I want that? How would it feel? It's not just yes or no. Oh, it would feel a little scary, but I'm— I— but let's do it. Oh, it feels a little naughty, or it feels like exciting, and please do it. Like, but you're checking in with yourself, which is creating more and more safety. Um, but then I also feel that how it connects to turning yourself on is that if you think that there's something wrong with you because your partner is a different gender than you and they get turned on faster than you and you get turned on slower than them, that I've seen for myself and in so many of my students that you think, oh well, I'm broken, there's something wrong with me, I'm slow. And it's like, no, you're not slow, you're just slower than this other species.

Yeah, that's it.

And so it's like, how do you find— and maybe this goes into turning ourselves on, um, but how do we bridge that gap? Because I learned from Layla that like on average women take about 45 minutes to be in like their full turned-on state, and men take about 15 So there's at least a 30-minute differential there, and 30 minutes is a long time, especially you're on the clock, the babysitter's leaving, whatever. So how do we shorten that gap? And do we do that by turning ourselves on?

Ah, yeah, that, that is the, that is the question. That is the magic question because, and this is where we get into, I always call it the orgasm gap. And it's, um, but it's not even about orgasm. It's like the arousal gap. And that is a real, and most people don't know this. I don't really know these numbers at all. I don't know these, these stats, but that's actually like, if, and again, if people understood that they wouldn't feel so bad about themselves, they would, they would understand like, this is just like what we got to do to get there.

Yeah.

So I think part of it is redefining what sex means to you and intimacy. So in our culture, when you say, did you have sex with someone? They think penis goes into vagina penetration. But for the majority of vulva owners, they are going to— they're not going to have their most pleasure from anything having to do with the penis at all. Sorry guys, it's true. Most of them are going to have the most pleasure from a mouth or fingers or a toy. And so just understanding that process, that it's going to take a little bit of time and that maybe we take penetration off the table. It's about touch. It's about massage. You know, eye gazing or sitting together, breathing together. So I think that once we understand what is going to get us turned on and get into our bodies, then we can start to incorporate that practice. Yeah. Like into our, into our sex life. So the challenge is like what you're saying is that it depends what your goal of sex is like. If it's for orgasm, then bring a toy out like that might— that's going to shorten it or, you know, get your partner off and then you can do your thing. Cause you just want, you want to have an orgasm and you want to have a release. Like there's zero things wrong with that. But if you want to have a truly like sexual experience that, that is going the distance and you're in your full arousal, I think we have to all be realistic that it might not happen every day and every time you have sex. So when I talk about, so maybe making time for that and, and also just understanding like what, what, what you need, like if it is like oral sex or it starts in the morning and you finish in the evening. So all day you have this energy building through your body. Like, I'm like, that could be incredible. I love sort of living in that space of eroticism and not just like hitting and quitting it, which is what most of us are doing. So I think that that's part of it is just to also say, define it. Like for many people, they think they're craving sex, or maybe many men are like, I do want sex, what are you kidding? But for so many of us, especially if you have a vulva, it might be about, I want to be massaged. Like I know for me and my partner knows that, If I, like, if he massages me for like 10, 15 minutes, like that's gonna be a game. Like that's gonna get me more in my body. I might not have wanted sex 10 minutes ago, but at least now I want something. Like I wanna touch and I wanna connect. And that might be sex for us. Or maybe it's mutual masturbation if you don't have a lot of time, but you're both getting off. That is like one of my favorite things. Me too. I love it. I love it. There's no pressure, there's no penetration. We know it's a sure thing. It's super hot to look at your partner and your partner see you in ecstasy.

Yeah.

So like, wait, so why is that?

Like, cuz I think I have a judgment and I didn't think I realized until right now, I think I have a judgment of myself that, that there's something maybe wrong with me or that like, why is it that it's easier or faster to pleasure yourself than it is for someone else to pleasure you? Like, why is mutual masturbation, like you said, it's like a guarantee. It's like a sure thing. It's faster. Like you just named those things as if they were givens.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, than like having a, like a mutually shared experience with someone?

Well, I think because we, we know our parts. I mean, everything is a, um, it's like immediate feedback. It's immediate feedback. But we, there's such a, um, it's like the neural pathways, right? Like in our brain and in our body. Like I know how to touch myself. I know what it takes. I know how to move. I know how to moan. And we've been doing this for a long time, however long we've been pleasing ourselves. I know exactly what needs to happen. I don't have to co-create anything here. So the second, the time you bring someone else into the picture, well then it's like both of your energies. You have to make sure you're on the same page, that your partner's not still on the thinking about work and that you're still, you know, that you're still in your body. So it's two people come together that we have to kind of get to that. I wanna say equal or get to the same place. So that just takes more time and we can't even, no matter how embodied we are and how present, I might still be thinking about how my body looks right now. Does my partner really like the way I'm touching them? Does this feel good to them? I'm a little bit uncomfortable here. Should I move? So, there's so many other factors when you're together with somebody that it is just always a little bit harder. Now, couples who've been together a long time, they might kind of get into their routines and they know what they need. But I think on our own, there's just like a freedom and there's a, you know, it's our, we're literally taking our pleasure into our own hands in that moment. So, I just think it's a lot. you know, it's a lot easier and it's a lot— you know, we don't have to, like, even though we're trying not to, we are always mindful and maybe perhaps even worried about our partner's experience as well.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But thank you for alleviating any self-judgment there that it's like that, that there's something wrong, that like pleasuring myself, like, why is that faster? Like, that's just a normal, natural thing.

Yeah. No, it's so normal. It's so natural. I mean, because those stats of the 45 minutes, like, to get into to your full energy, that's a little bit different than just like, I can sit down and probably have an orgasm in 10, 15 minutes if it's just me. And that is the most normal thing in the world.

Okay.

Um, yeah, great. Common.

So I think I took us off because, so let's go back to turning yourself on. Cause I know this is a big topic and something that I think if everyone, hmm, had more tools to turn themselves on energetically, emotionally, imaginationally, if that's even a word, that it would take some of the pressure off of the other. Persons and off of the relationship. So how do we get better at turning ourselves on?

Well, first, we are responsible for our own pleasure. We're responsible for our own orgasms. We're responsible for our own erotic energy, our own— like, that's on us. And so once we realize it— and the reason why I'm saying that, maybe why that I hold that point so near and dear to my heart, because I used to think that it was my partner's job job to do something to me, to bring it to me, to make me orgasm. And then I, you know, realize like, no, I actually have to make sure that my brain is on board, that my body's there, that I know, you know, how to turn myself on. You know, here's the other thing about having a vulva. If you have a penis, your body and your sexuality and your masturbation practice has been celebrated. We've all seen men, male masturbation scenes, or we know he's gonna masturbate or he's gonna get off. And like, it's such a thing, like male sexuality But female sexuality has sort of been in the dark so much of it that, you know, basically the vagina, the vulva has really bad PR. It's sort of shameful. It doesn't occur to women as much as it does to men. And I don't know if we go back to the biology, is it because the penis is on the outside because they're always touching it? I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why.

Patriarchy and shame and tens of thousands of years of conditioning from the church.

Well, I was going to say that's the penetration part too. Like sex, there's nowhere if you go back in time that it was all about penetration and make a baby. Babies. But if we look at like the impact of patriarchy and religion, it's that you should only have sex to procreate. So that's how we all have to get into this missionary position that feels good to not many people. I mean, a little bit, but that's not where the magic is. So learning our— it's almost like I'm asking people to create their own owner's manual for your body. What actually— what touch feels good to me? What does turn me on? What kind of touch? And I'm not just talking about your genitals. And so I talk a lot about mindful masturbation And that is really just the process of like slowing down and without the goal of orgasm, just the goal of exploration. What actually feels good to me? And this is how we get the answers to inform a partner, to inform our own sexuality is just like, you know, without using porn, not like a judgment on that, but just like really being in your body and starting with, you know, maybe your, you know, your arms, your hands and moving your hands over your body and saying, like, what does— where am I feeling things? Going back to your breath. And this is where you're going to learn so much about turning yourself on and what types you like.

Time. That's like making dates with yourself, like time on the calendar, baths, dancing, like really dating yourself, seducing yourself.

It's— that's a big part of it. And the thing is, when people say they don't have time, or it's, why would I want to do that, or that seems silly, I mean, think about everything else in our life that deem as important. We want to be a great parent. We read parenting books. We talk to our friends. We want to be great at our job and get a raise. We do all of these things, but with sex, there's still this belief that it should just always work out. It should be magical. It should just be our chemistry. And there's some like fairy dust that's just going to take us into this wonderful sex life.

Or some magical partner who's going to have all the keys to the door that I don't even know where the lock is.

Exactly. Exactly. But he's going to know. He must have the keys. And so if you look at it that way and you're someone who thinks sex is important and connection is important, well then it's time to take yourself on a date. Like, priority, put it on your calendar. Like, take the time. Like, I'm not asking you to like take out the trash or organize your drawer. Like, I'm saying like if you devote time to your own pleasure and your own sexuality, like there is just so much more to be revealed and we've just reached the tip of the iceberg. Like, we don't barely know anything about our bodies, as you know, been on this journey, and I know where I was, and I'm always still learning too. So it's like, especially being a woman, like, we're so lucky. We're like covered in these nerve endings and these parts that feel so good to touch. I mean, the clitoris alone has 12,000 nerve endings. Do you know that when I was—

I feel like every month we get another 2,000. It was 8, and then it was 10, now it's 12. This is very exciting.

Oh, Emily, let me tell you something. So for 20 years, myself, all sex educators, people work in this field, We're like, clitoris is 8,000 nerve endings. Never, never doubted it. We just— 8,000 nerve endings. When I was in the middle of writing Smart Sex, there was a huge study that came out that said, nope, guess what? It has 12,000 nerve endings because we're finally, finally studying female sexuality. We actually are looking at the parts. I mean, the clitoris wasn't even on the map till the late '90s. It wasn't even in medical journals. So late '90s. 90s. Like, '90s.

I didn't know that the clitoris is like this wishbone-shaped thing. I thought it was just like—

Most people still don't. People think it's a little bud. It's got legs that the nerve endings go deep inside, behind the labia. I mean, and most of us are just, if we are having orgasm, maybe we're just stimulating like 2,000 of those nerve endings. But those nerve endings are responsible, that expansion is responsible for blood flow and orgasm and all the things that you want. Want, but you gotta go in there and find out where they are and learn how to touch them.

Amen.

Stimulate them and have fun. Gosh, it's a good time. It's good homework.

Well, I'll say that for me, I, I also didn't prioritize my pleasure. I would not make time for it because of whatever shame conditioning, cultural programming, until I understood that I could hook my sexual energy up to my dreams. Like, until I understood that I could use my sexual energy to manifest I did not prioritize it, and that is embarrassing to admit, but whatever. Like, I spent a whole career teaching people to meditate so they could have better sex and make more money. And so now I'm like, oh, this is the linchpin for me. So I imagine it's a linchpin for a lot of others that, oh, tapping into my sexual energy actually makes me more magnetic. I can attract those jobs and more money and the person and the opportunity by turning on my magnet, by turning on my hoo-ha, by increasing my electric magnetic field. And so then I was like, wait, I'm gonna spend as much time and energy as possible figuring this out and what turns me on. And so just to share some like quick starter tips for folks, like, again, like you said, no judgment on porn, but if, if all you're ever doing is using porn and vibrators, then it's just so fast, it's so intense, and it's so much stimulation. It'd be like eating Sweet Tarts for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Yeah.

And then trying to taste the sweetness in a carrot, right? Like, carrot's not going to taste very good if your, if your tongue is like saturated with candy. And so again, it's not a judgment on toys or porn, but if you just take a minute, just take a little pause and like you said, slow down, then we might discover like a whole new area, a whole new echelon, a whole new like layer of ourselves. Like even energetic orgasm, even mental orgasm, nipple orgasm, throat orgasm.

Like it seems so many orgasms. Yeah. So little time.

So many orgasms. So little time. Yeah.

No, it's true. It's like, and I love what you're saying about like sex magic and sex energy. I mean, it is true that when you live in that state of just breathing, being in touch with your pelvic floor, like doing the, you know, the exercises, even if people know it as a Kegel, but even pumping those muscles, like tensing and relaxing and just even doing that, or the way you, you know, just, just moving your body in this, in those ways that allow you to feel more in touch with your energy. And the more you do that and live, live in in that space. And while at that same time, which is what you're talking about, is thinking about your dreams and your manifestations, like, that is the, the magic right there. That is the energy. That is what's going to help you. Because if there's still a really big block— because it is creative energy, it's everything, it's not just orgasm, which I know you talk about all of this, but it's like, it's, um, it's connected. So if that's people's incentive to take the time to realize it, when you release that block and get more connected with your energy, it's going to impact and you will get what you need, the partners you want, the dreams you want, the jobs you want, the money you want. Like it's all connected, right?

So this is, and even if we took the practices out of it or like the electromagnetic field out of it and the ancient tantric practice out of it, let's just imagine we had like two identical twins, same height, same gender, same education, same salary, same outfit even. And one of them is like, like outrageously embodied, like embodying all of the pillars from the book. They're embodied, they know how to collaborate, they are turned on, they orgasmed well this morning. And then the other one is not embodied, not physically or mentally well, does not know how to collaborate, is not in their pleasure, hasn't orgasmed or had sex in months. And they both go into a job interview. It's like, which one of those people do you think is going to get the job?

Yeah, right.

It's like we just want to be around people who are, are in their pleasure because we are a sympathetic species. Yes, right? Like, stress is a contagious disease, but good news, so is bliss. And so by you turning on this ability to tap into your own ecstasy and bliss, you are going to spread that and make that contagious.

Absolutely.

So I had this download a few years ago that was, uh, Tantra for Teens. Tantra for Teens. Tantra for Teens. And I was like, thank you, but no thank you. Like, not me. Not now. I mean, maybe later, but because it just feels like such a hot topic in the— I mean, just like, just that I mean, I love alliteration. It seemed like too much of a landmine to even get near it. But for me at that time— but for you, like, you're established enough, you're respected enough, you are like— people trust you enough that I feel like if you wanted to make a Tantra for Teens course or like a Smart Sex for Teens course—

I do.

Wait, so one of my—

so, okay, so we're talking about pivoting and what I want. So one of my greatest passions right now is developing programs for young people because, well, they're our future, right? They're going to— we're going to continue to repeat patterns unless we teach them to be more connected in their bodies. I mean, tantra, it could be time because tantra people are so— a lot of people don't really understand tantra. They think it's like a huge— and it is a massive practice and it can mean there's so many different arms of it. But at the end of the day, it's like presence, embodiment, eye contact, breath, breath looking into someone's eye. So yeah, I love, I love the idea. But the thing is, is they'd have to do a course before that because most teens and young people already have the shame in their bodies because when they were 3 years old they had a hand on their pants and someone said, don't do that, that's dirty. Or when their parents were naming their parts, they said, this is your, this is your, you know, your thighs, you know, and you're like, this is your stomach. Stomach, and this is, this is your breast, maybe this is your stomach, and this is your knees. So they jump right over it, or they call it a hoo-ha or yoni, and it's, or yoni, we'd be glad if they did that, or like your wee-wee. And we don't name the parts. So if we don't name the parts and it's called something else, then we automatically have a judgment that there's something off here. I shouldn't say it, I shouldn't talk about it. And this conditioning is happening at such a young age, pre-verbal. And so the work that has to be done, and again, this is where I'm like, ah, because we, we look at countries like in the Netherlands is the only place where they teach comprehensive sex education from the time you are babies. Like they name your parts, they talk about consent and it's literally all the time. It's every year in school. It's your parents talk to you about it. It's, it's sex with pleasure. They talk about pleasure and orgasm. So anyway, going back to teens, it's like, and I've found in the work I've done with teens, because I have been dabbling lately and doing a lot, like they I just still, and this is what keeps me going. They almost know less than we knew at our age, but you know, whenever we were in our teens because of porn. So now we've brought porn into the mix and porn without sex education is a disaster because now they're thinking that's sex. And they're like, well, I don't know what sex actually is. If it's not porn, what is it? So yeah, but I love mindfulness tantra. I mean, if you've done courses, right, meditation courses, For, for teaching?

Yeah. I, for kids. Yeah. So I have Ziva Kids and it's amazing and fun. And we worked with folks from Sesame Street and child psychologists from Harvard. And wow. It was actually a big thing for me cuz I was like, I can't have a Ziva Kids program and teach Sacred Secret. Like I can't teach sacred sexuality and have a kids training, which is my own conditioning and shame. And I was like, but in the Netherlands they're teaching, they're the only place.

Like all the sex educators I know, sex, we go over there, we're like trying to study like how do we bring it here? Like it's so institutional. Like, we— if we look at like rolling back rights now, like what's happening with Roe v. Wade, and then there's all these states that you can't even get an abortion or sex education. Like, literally only like 17 states require sex ed to be medically accurate in the state. So like, it's not going to go into the schools, and so it has to be just some kind of programs where parents have to opt in.

Yes.

So tantra— not to get into the weeds here, but like, that might be like, oh, I don't even know tantra. So, but there is something with youth that I think is going to be, I guess, pivotal and game changer for many kids who are still going off to college or just having sex and not really understanding it, or they're sitting in their rooms masturbating and feeling shame about it. Because shame— I talk in my book about the pleasure thieves, and I talk about the 3 things that are keeping us from pleasure is stress, trauma, and shame. Those are the things. And so we can learn to work with our shame, release our shame. I don't think we ever get rid of it. It's a heady stew, right? But how do we even just even recognize that I have shame. Like, that's the thing. Like, I'm still feeling bad that I'm touching myself because I grew up in a home where it wasn't okay. So there's a lot of different layers to it, but, you know, but where do we think that shame comes from?

And, and so I just— Layla and I went to Greece this summer, and we went on this priestess pilgrimage, and we were in Crete and Eleusis and Delphi and in these ancient sites where these priestesses were serving medicine and also doing fertility rituals. And, and it was really liberating to me to be in a physical location where stadiums and temples were built in reverence, one, to women, and two, to the visceral experience of God that we can get through plant medicine and through pleasure that is not available at talking about God, or someone telling you that God is a white man with a beard judging you, that you're going to go to hell for masturbating. Like, that is an experience of the divine that is not available to us. And we think that when we think of God as like a judge shameful God, and that our bodies are somehow filled with sin and something wrong. And so I'm fascinated. So I mean, there's the obvious like religious conditioning that happens, but beyond that, like, where do you think the shame is coming from?

Okay, so beyond religious shame—

I mean, that was like a—

yes, but no, but that is— okay, so that's a big one. That's just like our society where we go. You might not even be growing up like in a religious home. Like, I I grew up Jewish. We didn't have a lot of, um, I didn't, I wasn't told like I was sinning if I touched myself or had sex, but I still had the absence of information, right?

So it's like lying by omission.

Yeah, exactly. So, so I didn't have information about it, but I also didn't have, have, have the shame. So that's part of it. The shame also comes from, from perhaps somebody might have said something negative about our body once, once. Like, I can't tell you how many people I hear, they're like, oh, Some guy told me once that I was really bad at oral sex. Um, and now I can't ever perform oral sex, receive oral sex because of that. So I feel like I'm a bad lover. Like that stuff sticks, sticks with us because we don't talk about sex ever again, going back to that. So then we hold onto that. Maybe we're comparing ourselves to what we see in porn and social media, and we think our bodies don't match up to that. Something's wrong with my labia, something's wrong with my body. So then we have shame around that. We also just have shame because women have been so judged and persecuted for being sexual. You know, I hear from a lot of women who are like, I get to the point of orgasm, but I can't let go. It's because somewhere in their psyche, even if it wasn't told them, who knows if it's like ancestral, they're feeling like if I release right now, that's like a bad thing for me to lose control and have an orgasm. I don't deserve pleasure. And you don't wanna be seen as easy or a slut or whatever words we're using in our culture that are still still prevalent right now. Like, it's still, it's still so pervasive that if a woman, you know, that men can be out there sleeping together. I mean, again, we've come a long way. It is changed right now, especially in our worlds. Like, that's not a thing. But if you go to like other parts of the world, um, there's definitely a problem with being sexual. So we just never feel okay with it. So there's shame in that. There's— I mean, the shame is, I think, one of the most— I think it's probably one of the hardest, one one of the biggest pleasure thieves that gets in our way because it's so insidious. I think we don't even, we don't even like, we can't really like touch it or see it. But the more like you get into it, you get to look at yourself and say like, you know what, I help people work with this shame is like, where did that message come from? Like somebody literally took that message and planted it in my brain. But who said, who, like it no longer serves me. So then rewriting our own sexual manual and our sexual history And so I love that you do that.

Thank you for that. And so that's what I was going to ask. What is the antidote to shame? So when you're working with people on these pleasure thieves, especially when we're robbing from ourselves with our own shame or the, you know, cultural program shame, how do you help people to transmute that or to love it?

I mean, I think— well, I think the antidote to shame is— what are they— is like, I think it's, it's pleasure or presence, right? So I think like authenticity. And so really just getting people to— so how I work with them is saying like, what, what are the messages? Like journal, like write down all the things that you might believe about sex. Like I'm not worthy of pleasure, I don't like my body, I'm gonna go to hell. And you write it all down and then you get to like flip the script. I have an exercise in the book called Flip the Script. And then you get to say like, what if that wasn't true? And you flip that and you think like, what do you want? I mean, it's a lot of the stuff that you can do in other spiritual practices, but when you look at that, so that's like the written part. Like I am a, I am a sexy sexual goddess deserving of pleasure and connection. My body is beautiful and has so much capacity for pleasure. I have a relationship that's filled with love, consent, and joy. Just the affirmations are a really important part of it. The other thing is surrounding yourself with sex-positive voices. I think the reason why Sex with Emily, my podcast, has such longevity and why people listen to one of the reasons. And I used to— and I didn't get this before, but I would always— since the beginning, I heard from people like, I was on a road trip, but I listened to your podcast for 12 hours with my boyfriend. And I'm like, that's a long time to listen to a podcast, you know, like, why? And I would hear that. And it's because I think when you hear sex-positive voices— so for example, listening to my podcast allows people to see that there is a way to talk about sex that is free of shame, free of judgment, You know, and that you can actually like ask for what you want, get it. So I think like rewiring like our notions around sex. And so I think surrounding yourself with sex-positive voices, following the people that make you feel good on social media and unfollowing the people that make you feel bad, practicing talking about sex, practice with your best friend. I mean, again, we talk about it all the time. I'm sure we went to dinner, we talk about it, but again, unfortunately most people Don't, they're not talking about it with their friends. They're not talking. I mean, don't you have friends that you haven't, maybe you don't, but friends that you've never really talked about it with.

Yeah, that's true. Right.

I mean, or like be that friend in your friend group that says, hey, I heard this podcast today. Like, what do you think about that? So the more we can start to like rewire, it's basically a rewiring the shame and then noticing when it comes up and like, this is no longer, this is no longer mine. This doesn't serve me. So those are some of the practices.

Yeah. That feels great. And I love the idea of like surrounding ourselves with sex positive voices. Voices that make you feel however you want to feel.

However you want to feel.

If you want more shame, then great, get in there. Good. But like, if you don't want shame, then make sure that you are connecting to people that have either transmuted it or didn't have it to begin with, or that are vibrating at a frequency that you desire to vibrate at.

Find those people, find your circle, right? Like, yeah, find the like-minded people because they're there. They're in every city, they're in every place you are, but we just have to find that. Maybe that's people's intention, right? Right now, just to be like, I want to surround myself with people who want to feel good, especially in the age of apps.

And, you know, with like polyamory and non-monogamy and gender fluidity, like, there's so— it's such a vast world now where things are much more specialized, where there are— I won't even say choices, but like more acceptance of, of the spectrum of both gender identity and sexual preferences. And I think inside of that is also a spectrum of monogamy. There's a spectrum of of, um, sex positivity. So I think it is— we are really entering—

we're entering it.

We are. It's like you can find your niche, but then I think the challenge might be to not become like in a silo or an echo chamber, you know, because like we're always learning from other, other people. Yeah. Um, what's been like the edgiest thing for you, like emotionally? Like, have you ever found, either in your own practice or working with folks, where you're like, oh, It took me, like, I walked right up to an edge that I didn't know that I could cross, but then I like expanded into some new version of me.

Yeah. Oh my God, there's so many. I think every day there's examples of it. I'll think of my own in a minute. I'm sure that I know that there are, but for some people it's really just, I never thought that I could even just, this isn't gonna be edgy for people, but like, I never thought that I could even ask for what I want. I never thought I could have an orgasm that way. I never thought I could ask my partner to open up the relationship after 20 years. I never thought they would. And so I've definitely, you know, worked with people, helping them opening up, asking for what they want, you know, telling a partner they're bisexual or telling a partner that, you know, that they desire something else or they have this fetish. And so to me, that stuff is always really incredible and I guess edgy to feel like you are in one place, but you can actually— like, most people hear things things like open relationships or threesomes or, you know, full body orgasms are like, not mine, not me. Sounds cool. Like that could never happen. But when people start to realize like everything's possible, like there's no sex police that are gonna knock on your door and be like, I heard that you're practicing in this way. Like that we get to decide, like we are responsible, we are in charge. So I think that that's, you know, really, really empowering. And I think, and edgy for many people, like edgy just to even talk about sex can be edgy.

I love that. Everything is possible. We are in charge of our own ecstasy and turn-on, and there is no sex police.

There's no sex police. They're like, um, hello, I heard that you were having multiple orgasms. I heard you having, you know, sex, you were having a threesome, or you are not in a monogamy relationship.

The only thing knocking on your door is like opportunities, money, friends, more lovers, right?

That's it. Like, literally, that's it.

Everything you want.

So it's just like— and so I do love that more people are opening up and talking about It still is a little bit— there is still shame around it. I know people that are like, oh, but I could never tell my neighbors or my boss or my mother that I'm open or I'm in a throuple. But the fact is that we're talking about it more and we're getting there. And I think we are closer because the thing is, and the other thing is that the people who are monogamous, there's like a threat, right? And the point is that most people that we know are probably going to be in monogamy and they might be happy in it and that's fine. I'm not talking about everybody should be in a throuple. But what I love about where the world is going now is that people just realize that they have choices, that there's an opportunity. You don't have to go into this little box and be in a perfectly monogamous relationship if it doesn't work for you. So I always had this sense, and this kind of started me on my path, that monogamy and, um, a committed relationship and being with one person just always seemed like a challenge. So part of my starting Sex with Emily was like, I gotta find out what's wrong with me, and I gotta find out what everyone else is doing to be in these happy monogamous relationships. And I've even tried it. And then I realized though, so what I've come back to now is like a knowing that like actually I was kind of right, that more of an openness, a fluid relationship where we talk about everything and we explore and expand together. Like I have a partner, but it's, we get to define what it looks like and it's just a little bit different. And like, I was like, I knew this when I was 19, but coming back and I think the world's ready, I'm ready. And I think I still struggle with it though because I think I still, or I, I mean I'm getting on the other side of it, but I kept thinking like I should still fit myself into this box. I should still probably Probably like there still is a happily ever after, and that does look like one partner, one person.

If it's something about myself, or find the perfect person, yeah, that would be happy.

Probably about the person. But no, it's about who I am and like accepting that.

So man, good for you.

Thank you.

And, and just like the idea that it seems absurd that we would have, um, like if you and I ever started business together, right, like our podcast merged, Ziva and Sex and Emily merged somehow, like we would make our own contract. One of us would draft it, the other one would revise it, we would go through, we maybe do a couple rounds of business, maybe run it by our friend or a lawyer, an advisor, and then we'd eventually get to a place where either decide to sign it or not. Like, that's a business contract. And so like the idea that would be like, oh, Emily and Emily are gonna go into business together, here's business contract, you know, just like the standard business contract. And that just is so absurd. And yet that's what we're doing with our marriages and our relationships.

We never re-examine that contract, and we don't even know there's another menu. No, we don't. We know nothing. That's the other thing, I believe, with my work is like people don't even know what's on the when it comes to sex. Like, I can have a nipple orgasm. Yes, you can have a nipple orgasm.

Yes, you can have a nipple orgasm and it's amazing.

It's amazing. I have a nipple, like, try it. But most people don't try it because they're just rubbing one out, right? Like rubbing their clit. Nothing wrong with that. But like—

Regina calls that a crotch sneeze.

That's right. Oh my God. I've heard that. That is amazing. So it's like, so, but then that also makes you feel bad because like, I'm only crotch sneezing. No, like you have so much to explore and play with.

It's still a miracle. It's still a miracle.

It's a fucking miracle. That is true. But the thing is, yeah, why don't we reevaluate our marriage contract every 5 years, every year to have a contract? This is what we want until it doesn't work, until we don't.

Or even when we're going into the relationship, defining it on the front end of like, this is what I'm available for, this is what I'm not available for. What would you desire? Like, we don't even have those conversations. Just like, oh, I'm keep searching for the person that's supposed to fit this one mold of business contract or relationship contract.

Exactly. It did. It just, it really, it doesn't mean, and it's not working for, for many people, I think.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of unhappiness in relationships because we think this is just my lot in life. I signed up for it. We got kids and the whole thing. But, you know, I guess, you know, I always say like, find a partner who has a growth mindset around sex, but have just a partner who has a growth mindset, period. Period. Yeah.

My partner Adam calls it expansive sacred union. So for us, the thing that works is like, we are each other's primary partners and this is our sacred union and this is our priority. Body, and but it can expand or contract. Like, it is— there are moments where it expands and there are moments the container contracts, and that feels really good to me. I just love that, like, that particular term has felt really good for us.

Yeah, I love that. I'm so glad you shared that because we need them. I mean, this is happening now in real time that people are exploring, so I love that. Like, you get to— but then it comes down to people are like, oh, but I could never— that would be— I can't imagine my partner being with someone else. All that. But if you are looking to explore it, I mean, also it takes work, it takes time to communicate. It's all communication, right? People think that you're just having sex all the time.

Maybe you get to that point, but it's a couple months of processing before you ever get to anything else.

Do not jump into the open kind of relationship until you process it.

And then afterwards, you got to process it afterwards. Like, and honestly, that's like the real— I think that's the real question mark for me is like, is it worth the time investment that it takes to process?

Exactly. And back end, I kind of like being in this monogamy thing because we never talked, right? It's true.

You have time to write a book, raise a kid, start a company.

But like with this stuff, it's, it's a lot. And then it, but it's so, it's so affronting, but it's so great because it's challenging. Like, you know, it allows you to look at parts of yourself that you might not have that obviously are gonna also impact again, every area of your life rather than blindly signing up for something without talking about it. We need to, yeah.

And I think it depends on why you think relationships exist. Like I think relationships exist to teach us our lessons. Mm-hmm. And it's a syllabus and it can be some of the most profound medicine work you can ever do. Mm-hmm. And so if you do have a growth mindset, set, then sometimes openness or expansive sacred union can sort of accelerate that learning because you're going to get those lessons, you're going to get those shadows, you're going to get those triggers, you're going to get that shame, that guilt, that insecurity, the jealousy. Like, all that's— all those like shadow sides are going to make themselves known intensely and quickly often.

Yeah.

And if you judge that as bad, then you're like, no, no thank you, not for me. But if you're like, oh, I see that as an expeditation of the curriculum or an intensifying of the curriculum and I can use this as a path to transmute that and integrate this into wholeness, then it can really elevate it. But that is certainly like a personal decision. Like, I'm not going to throw someone who doesn't want to into an ayahuasca ceremony. Yeah, you know, like, that has to be consensual.

There's so much work to be done before you get there, but it is possible. I love that relationships are a syllabus. That's such a great way of saying it. It's so true. Yeah, like, and you can graduate.

Yeah, you can, you can learn the lesson and graduate, and that's okay. It doesn't mean it failed.

Yeah, it's not a Oh, that's the other thing. Can we just change that? A relationship ends is not a failure.

Yeah.

Like, that growth work was done and you're gonna learn in another relationship. It's just, these are just all the things that we just have to— people would feel so much better if they could. I think they're doing that. I love your podcast. We're gonna all learn that, that we can all define our own kinds of relationships that feels right for us. So I just wish people would just start talking about it more, read the book, take their friends for having the thing, like, because we still are really be like judgy of people's sex life. Because I think also when you hear people in monogamous relationships like, oh, how could you ever do that? We're so afraid. Like, let's say we decide to have a different kind of relationship. What are the monogamous people gonna say? Because a lot of times they're not even in touch with their, maybe their own discomfort, so that they're projecting like, you should be married, you should do it our way, that's the wrong way. Like, there is no right or wrong when it comes to any of this stuff. I mean, it should be consensual and it should be pleasurable, but otherwise, like, we get to decide who, what Amen. Exciting is that.

It is so exciting.

What a great time to be alive.

And that's how I feel about like trans people, non-binary people, like gender non-conforming, the whole spectrum of sexual preferences, where it's like, what a gift to be alive in a time where we get to meet so many different types of the divine, like to see so many different faces of God versus just like, oh, there's this and there's there's that, right? There's black and there's white. And so I feel excited about that.

I do.

Um, what— oh, okay.

Yep.

Sex and psychedelics.

I mean, I— yeah, I mean, I know that you've done some journeys on this, you've had some experience. I've done a little bit, but most of my experience with psychedelics has been on my own, and then I've had some incredible experience with partners, but I haven't been on like I'd say that's not true. I've gone on like one LED journey, but not about sexuality. But I do think that they're so closely related, sexual energy and what plant medicine, like psilocybin or LSD, or there's a lot of other things that you could do that could really be, even cannabis can help you be more in your body and not in your head. And so the reason why I love it, I mean, there's so many reasons why, and I love that it's becoming decriminalized in so many places is because Because if I look at the blocks, like I go into like reverse engineer it. Okay. One of the top questions I get asked is why am I so disassociated during sex? Why can't I have an orgasm? Why am I so blocked? Why can't I? But it's like, that's anxiety. Like that's chatter in your brain. That's distraction and pleasure and anxiety can't live in the same moment because pleasure needs presence. Right? So if you're anxious and worried, like it, right? Like you can't have like the spike in cortisol and than the spike in your arousal. So I, I think that plant medicine psychedelics help people become more embodied, release a lot of this shame and the old stories, and truly feel what they're feeling in the moment. So I just think, and it's so tidy, like your sexual energy, you can access it more easily, readily. So I just think that there, and that's initially, right, the beginning of plant medicine, right, was like, you know, women helping other women and helping everyone, right, in their, in their society, feel more, be closer to God, feel more connected to their bodies and their community. And so that's sex, like that's sexuality. So, and I know there are, yeah, movements, you've done more of this, but I think that that is going to be a big antidote to the disassociation, which is a huge problem.

And is the disassociation coming from trauma, from shame and conditioning?

Everything. Sex comes from, yes, trauma, shame, worry. Like it could be sexual assault trauma. Of course that's gonna have your body into freeze mode and it could be really hard to receive. I mean, there's so many people, you know, more women than men that feel that they actually can't feel during sex. They're numb. They like, I don't know if anything was inside. Like I don't feel it. Or they leave, they're, they leave the room. They're like above themselves watching themselves. That could be trauma. That could just be anxiety. Like you're constantly in state of— you could be worried about the kids hearing, or the, you know, finishing that email to your boss. It's like stress, trauma, shame. Really, those are the things I think that's allowing us to dissociate. I shouldn't be having the sex right now. I'm really ashamed by the way my body looks. I don't like my thighs rubbing together. I don't like how I look naked. Those are the thoughts that are running through people's head that is preventing them— and this is all genders— from being present. So I love the idea of using psychedelics to help people be more touch with their sexual energy.

And certainly different medicines will do different things, but like ketamine, we know, can really increase neuroplasticity. And especially ketamine-assisted therapy can like really rewire things pretty quickly.

Yeah.

And I've just recently— you do not have to get off of SSRIs in order to do ketamine-assisted therapy, which I think you do with MDMA. And so, you know, for a lot of— I have like two really close people in my life who wanted to do MDMA-assisted therapy but they would have to wean off their SSRIs for 8 weeks.

Yeah.

And they were both moms and they tried it for like 3 or 4 weeks and they were like, I can't be around my kids. Like, they did not trust themselves with the children off of SSRIs. And so it like prevented them from even being able to get to the MDMA therapy. And so just letting people know, like, I think—

I love that ketamine. I didn't, I didn't realize that because that is a barrier to go off your medications for sure.

And I think with psilocybin as well. But obviously you have to check your legal and your state and obviously check with your doctor. I'm not a doctor, but, um, I know that will come as a surprise to no one, but I've done a lot of personal and professional research on sex and psychedelics. So it's— it feels like an exciting time to where we can start to have our own visceral experience of the divine, like through plant medicine, through sexuality, sometimes with them together, and how they might play with each other, right? We get this neuroplasticity and this healing that can happen in the psychedelic space. We get the neuroplasticity and pleasure and rewiring and transmutation that can happen in the sexual space. And then when those start to dance with each other, I think we really can expedite and accelerate not only the healing of the species and the planet, but the potentiality, right? Because it, it liberates us from these trauma loops that we keep reliving and, and deepening.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing is that it's really like we're talking about all the work to do to get over the shame and the trauma, and therapy is great, and like EMDR therapy, there's certain trauma therapies. But I do think that with— and we've seen this, I mean, we've seen I mean, like, you know, people who have been on medications and they do one session of something and they, you know, psilocybin or ketamine, and they're like, it's transformative. So imagine, like, whatever trauma is holding you back from sex, being present is also holding you back in other areas of your life. So it's really going to be like— I think that they all, like, feed into each other. And yes, it would be huge for sexuality for sure. And, um, so I love that. I love that. I'm on my own journey with that, so that's been fun. Great.

Was there anything else you wish I had asked you? Is there anything else you feel excited to talk about besides— I mean, so the book, obviously, Smart Sex, which is so exciting. And this lube. Thank you for this gift.

Yeah. Playground lubricant.

Okay. It is like After Hours is a type of Playground.

Yes. There's 4 different kinds. There's After Hours and there's like Date Night, and they all have different essences. So they're not necessarily scents because some of these people are flavors, but they have like an essence. And I think this one's like the musk and sandalwood. And what I love about Playground is that it is a lubricant that has all these feel-good ingredients. Like, it has some supplements that I take, like black cohosh and ashwagandha and vitamin E, and it's vegan. And like I said, it's like a facial for your vagina, so it feels good. Because for so long, like, not only have we not studied female sexuality, but like the lubricants are like— there's one formula that everyone was using because it's really expensive to go make a new lubricant. It's a long story, and there was all had this, this government regulation, and it was like really not great to put inside of you.

Yeah, it was bad.

It's bad for condoms, bad for your body. I mean, women have to be careful what we put inside of us. We don't want like sugars, or if you can't understand the ingredients on a product, you shouldn't put it inside of you. But you were at my SiriusXM office, but we get like 20 pounds of sex toys delivered for the last 20 years. I've tried every toy, every product, every sex accessory on the planet. So we just launched a shop with Emily's that it's really curated with just like, if you've been looking for like the right vibrator or lube or like handcuffs, or it's really is the stuff that I found in all different price points that could really, you know, be the next thing that someone might be desiring in their sex life and be like the right product, you know, like, cause I know I would never recommend something that I haven't tried. So check that out. My book, my podcast, sign up for my newsletter.

And the podcast is Sex with Emily.

Sex with Emily.

So where's the best place online to find you?

Is it? It's sexwithemily.com and all social media is Sex with Emily. And also sign up for my newsletter. You can do that on my website. Site. My newsletter comes out like once a week, and it's just— it's kind of a recap of everything happening with sex, happening with the show. We have tons of articles at sexwithemily.com. We release several a week that are just really answering questions, helping people have the sex life they deserve.

Oh, thank you so much for who you are. Thank you for the bravery and dedication to answer the call at a time that I'm sure that it was not easy, and the amount of pushback that you might have— must have gotten. I mean, the amount of lives that you have transformed. The amount of shame that you have transmuted and liberated. Like, blessings, blessings, blessings to you for all of the work that you have done, and extra blessings for all the work that is to come as you step into these new chapters and these new versions of yourself. So I'm so, so excited for you, and I'm so happy to know you and to deepen our friendship. Me too.

Thank you so much for having me. This is wonderful. I love your podcast.

All right, sweet friends, if you have fallen in love with Emily as much as I have, make sure you check her out at Sex with Emily all over the interwebs. And if you have enjoyed this episode, or if you think that there is someone who might benefit from having smarter sex, from getting to know their own pleasure and their own turn-on, someone who might benefit from having less shame in their bodies around sex and sexuality, please do share this episode with them. You can always give it a 5-star rating, leave us a review, and if you liked it, you could screenshot it and then tag us. I'm @ZivaMeditation, she's @SexWithEmily, and share it with your friends so that we can create a world filled with sexually liberated people having much smarter sex. I love you. I love you. I love you. And I will see you next week.