Amanda Montell Is a Wordslut

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Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions.

Bedroom eyes, they call them.

In a bygone day. Hey, Emily, you got a boyfriend?

Because my man E here, he just.

Got his heart broken. He thinks you're kind of cute.

A girl's gotta have her standards. Oh my.

The women know about shrinkage. Isn't it common knowledge?

What do you mean, like laundry? It shrinks.

Can we not talk about sex so much? Are you kidding me?

Oh, my God, I feel so good.

Being bad feels pretty good.

But you know, Emily's not the kind.

Of girl you just play with.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. Today I'm talking with Amanda Montel. She's a linguist and author of Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. So if you've ever been curious about how the word bitch came to mean, well, what it means today or why we call penis and vagina sex Penetrative Wordsut is the perfect book for you. It's fun and funny and it's a really smart read that will have you rethinking simple words we use both inside and outside the bedroom. I also take your calls and answer your questions. I'm joined by linguistics Amanda Montel to talk about her book Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Essentially, all the gendered language we speak in. You know, there's certain words and things that we say that you haven't even thought about the origins and the meaning of them. And she's going to get into that. She's also working on her second book we're going to have to come back for about cults. They told me this. But first, which I'm fascinated. But I'm also fascinated by your book because, Amanda, so I was reading your book and there was a few places where I was like, yes, what are we going to do about that? And I think we could start with one part of it is that I've always said, if you've been listening, you guys know I want to rebrand sex altogether. And when I say that, it's usually like following a certain word or certain things we say. And some of them even vagina. I think penis sounds so much like vagina. Just sometimes it's a little bit aggressive. And there's just a few other things in around sex, even squirting. I mean, I guess female. Even ejaculation. Female ejaculation. Like we have to gender that. So welcome to the show. First off, Amanda, thank you so much.

And I love the way that you said the word linguist. I feel like linguist is one of those elusive kind of academic sounding words that can be a little intimidating. But for some reason when you said it, it sounded very sexy.

I just want to say it all day. Linguist. It just, it just makes you. Now I want to be a linguist, sexologist or something like that. But it's welcome. I mean, congratulations on your book Word Slut. Love that title. So, yeah. What. Tell me everything. Like, what do you mean we. A lot of it. You do cover this language that we use. We don't even think about another place I've struggled and I know there's a Lot to talk about is saying, guys, hey, you guys. And I try to say, so now instead of saying that, I just use people's names or I'll just say, hey, you know, and it's awkward, but you have some great ideas here to replace some of these words and just how we could start thinking about language and gender and sex a little bit differently.

So, yeah, the guys thing is so interesting, and I'm asked about it a lot. Obviously, in the English language, we lack a second person plural pronoun. And so ever since only the 1980s, guys has been one of the most popular ways that we've filled that lexical gap. Really, only in the 1980s have people been using you guys as our second person plural. And obviously in parts of the country, people use y' all or yinz and. But you guys and people's quote unquote, gender neutral use of it really speaks to this concept of default maleness that I talk about a lot. And that exists in our language as it exists in our culture. And it certainly exists in the ways that we think about and talk about sex. But my background is in linguistics. And I remember in my first sex, gender and language class in college, one of the first little nuggets that blew my mind was thinking about how we frame sex in terms of language like penetration, you know, which really frames it from a penis's perspective. You know, the opposite might be something like envelopment or enclosure. Like, can you imagine if that were the framing that we use to describe something sex. You know, even our slang terms that we use to describe the act, Boning, drilling, screwing, the, you know, something else. Yeah, yeah, hounding something else might be she sing or, you know, if we're talking about the vulva as a whole, you could say like, we clit smashed or whatever it is. But what linguists have found is that, you know, looking back at our etymology of genitalia slang over hundreds and hundreds of years. And I always think it's so entertaining that there are linguists and lexicographers whose entire job is to just study genitalius. Lang it really becomes very clear that our worst values and attitudes about sex are reflected in the way we talk about genitalia. You know, like penises are always weapons and vulvas, which, by the way, it's already subversive to use the word vulva instead of vagina. Vagina is how most of us talk about what is really the vulva. But the vagina is, you know, the most unquote important part of the vulva. If you have a penis that wants to go into one, penises, they're always weapons. And vaginas are always, you know, empty places, these vacant holes waiting for a penis. And sex is always violence. You know, it really. It says a lot about how we approach sexuality and it really serves no one well.

It's so true. So you're. I mean, I love what you're saying here because it's like when we think about not only is. And I guess what came first, I guess is the way we think about sex, because you're so right. It is reflected in the. In the language. I always say that it shouldn't. First of all, penetration is not the main event. The vagina is not equal to the penis. The clitoris is more similar in makeup to the penis than the vagina.

True.

So that's a problem. And I'm like, ah. But I never even thought about how penetration is that even the word for it, you know, awkwardly.

I found researching my book, so Wordsled, obviously, or maybe not obviously for those who haven't read it, but it covers a wide spectrum of ideas having to do with language, gender, power and culture. From the history of our favorite gendered insults in the language and what they say about us, to grammatical gender, all the way to genitalia, naming practices and curse words. And so it's sort of this quick and dirty crash course.

I want to go back to the terms around our body parts first. So let's talk about how I would so much rather be enveloped than, like, penetrated. Wish I had that choice. Envelop me totally.

So beautiful. And it's really. It really turns the act on its head. Because what's true in every corner of culture is that language is used to reinforce power structures and social norms. And that's true in the bedroom, too. And it's not just sex slang in some cases, it's medical definitions. You know, I found, researching the chapter on genitalia slang in my book that some medical definitions in medical dictionaries will define, quote, unquote, you know, normatively female anatomy from a patriarchal perspective. I remember I found a definition of vagina that said the organ that receives the penis, which is hardly an objective way to classify that body part. And so, yeah, I.

Some are closed for penis business altogether. Right. We're taking back the English language here. I mean, have you ever thought about how gender shapes your thinking? It shapes the way we think about sex. The vaginas that don't want a penis, but they're still going to be labeled that way. Which is. Which is amazing. And then we don't even think about what about the gendered part of the slang that we use for the body parts. Like, they're so the penis is the penis, but then you've got like all the other things we use, and they're never complimentary. A lot of the slang are not cop. They're all flips on traditional, like words that are, you know, female words.

The ways that we symbolize these body parts in slang, penises will always be weapons. You have, you know, rod of pleasure or sword or pocket rocket. And then to describe the vagina, you have things like box, garage, cave, meat, wallet, axe wound, cum, sponge. I mean, this. This is not language that I feel reflects my body on my terms. And you know, what linguists have found, what sociolinguists have found, is that when we don't have language that represents our experiences, our bodies from our point of view, it makes it difficult for the world at large to appreciate them. And, you know, labeling can be controversial and not everybody will agree, but what labeling can help do is legitimize experiences in the minds of students. And so something that I think is really fascinating and that transgender and gender non conforming communities have done for a really long time is to, you know, chuck some of these heteronormative genitalia words, medical and slang, out the window and come up with their own terms, you know, be really inventive about it. And, you know, even if you don't go so far as calling your junk or whatever it is a click or some other brand new term, you can at least, you know, appreciate the invitation to think about, oh, yeah, maybe I don't like that everybody just calls my junk a vagina. Maybe I really want to call it a vulva because that represents more of the anatomy. Or maybe I don't want to refer to the act as boning or drilling. Maybe I want to say something else. And the awareness and the invitation to do that can be really empowering. Because if we can reframe sex as something that isn't just penetration, it's over. As soon as the guy comes, then that opens up new opportunities for sex to be whatever you want it to be. Because I think, you know, most of us, us can agree that virginity and sex are these patriarchal constructs.

I want to start calling it the sexual debut rather than like, yeah, virginity, we're going to lose it. How about just your debut? It's the first time you are sexual being however you want to define that as well.

However you Want to define it?

Yeah.

And I think that can be really empowering. And there are several words that have always, my whole life, even when I was a kid, rubbed me the wrong way that I can now, on a linguistic level, appreciate, you know, why that word always struck me as problematic or is not comfortable. Vajayjay is certainly one of them. I know we were talking a little bit.

Oh, God, I can't handle vajayjay. Who did vajayjay? I thought it was Oprah.

So to my understanding, vajayjay came into popularity thanks to TV icon Shonda Rhimes, creator of the show Grey's Anatomy. And there was an incident several years ago where Broadcast Standards had a problem with how many times the word vagina was included in an episode. Penis was included in this episode something like 17 times. But when they tried to get the word vagina in there. And again, this is a scientific term in their 11 times broadcast standards threw a fit. And that says a lot about our demonization of female sexuality and our fear of it, et cetera. Shonda Rhimes overheard on set, someone use an alternative word, vajayjay. And this all of a sudden painted the vagina as something very friendly and cutesy. Vajayjay kind of sounds like baby babbling, like Goo Goo Gaga.

Vajayjay, vajayjay.

And Shonda runs away.

You're with jj.

Exactly, exactly. It's like you're hoo hoo. You're vaj. And Shonda Rhimes, you know, marketing genius that she was, she was like, you know, I kind of like this word because the person that she overheard say it was a woman. She was like, here's kind of a female invented word that feels like it belongs to women. So I'm gonna start using this. And, you know, it caught on real fast. Oprah started using it. Moms across Middle America started using it. People really latched onto vajayjay. But my contempt of the word vajayjay is quite similar to my cont of words like girl boss, because even though they're, you know, created by women, I think that there's still patriarchy underlying them, because I'm not a girl. I'm a grown adult woman. There's something diminutive about girl. And when you say words like girl boss, it's kind of highlighting the fact that even though the word boss is not grammatically masculine, it is tacitly coded male. And a woman has to cutesify her title. In order to hold a position of professional power. And that's kind of what I see for J.J. you know, we have to cut this term to make the vagina seem friendly for the average American household. But I think that that, at the end of the day, can do more harm than good. So having this appreciation for why vajayjay always struck me as so awkward, but really allowed, really, you know, gave myself permission to say, I don't want to use that. You know, I want to use vulva. There's another term, an acronym that I heard someone use a few years ago. Maybe you've heard of it. The vaginal vulva clitoral complex, or the vaginal clitoral vulval complex. I have, yeah. And I thought that was cool, too, because it's like, yeah, it's. It's complex. That's its beauty. Like, we don't need to dumb castle, though.

Like, the vaginal clitoral compound. Castle sounds better than complex because that's very industrial. But if we're going to go with the feminine, I'd like to think of a castle. But, yeah, I've heard some of that. And I think that this is so, you know, we're talking about reclaiming language, which could actually reclaim our own sexuality and what we want, which I hadn't even really. You put so many interesting things into perspective. A different. Different spin on, like, what is wrong and how the different angles we have to solve this challenge that we have around sexuality and people feeling comfortable around sex, even when they are the technical terms. To not be able to say vagina. I used to not be able to say when I was on a radio station that wasn't Sirius XM is a terrestrial radio. I couldn't say masturbation because of FCC laws. You could only say it three times in the hour. So then I was like, so when you're bopping the baloney, you know, when. When you are, you know, what was it? Flicking the bean? It's just. I just think that, again, it speaks to the shame and embarrassment and the really. The trauma we have around sex.

Absolutely. And you saying that really reminds me of this euphemization of sex and bodies that we participate in in our sort of, you know, Protestant, puritanical American culture. And I think there's something really subversive about not engaging with some of those euphemisms if we don't want to. If they've always struck us as a little strange, a little awkward, not comfortable, like they don't represent us. And even just that permission to use the words that right to you can be really empowering. And I also want to say, you know, in a world where. In a world.

Who's gonna say that? In a world.

In a world, but truly like in a culture, I'll say that was perfectly gender equal, where there weren't things like sexual trauma or there weren't imbalanced gender scales and sex scales, then we could probably use whatever language we wanted, knowing that no offense or damage would be caused, because that underlying relationship, respect and equality and consent, is already there. And I certainly think we can all agree that we are not quite there yet. And so language can be a really powerful tool to either reinforce and perpetuate problematic sex standards or to flip them over on their head. And what I also think is that, you know, you can create your own microcosm of that really gender and sex equal world in your own bedroom. Like, let's say your partners are people who really do respect you and, and you feel like you can really get in it with them knowing that the consent and the respect and the equality is there. And I certainly wish an experience like that for everyone or a relationship like that for everyone. In a situation like that, you could use whatever language you want, knowing that it will be fine. Like, I feel like I have that dynamic in my personal life, my partner and me. Like, we have our personal preferences when it comes to language, of course, but we know that because the respect and equality is already there. There is no term that's going to dam. And I think that is what we can really shoot for, you know, in a future where women and men and everybody in between are having the consensual, you know, good sex experiences that we all want and deserve. You could call someone a slut willy nilly, and it wouldn't have that same detrimental power loaded effect.

Are you gonna do merch? Do you have merch merchandise, as they say?

I do have merch.

How can they find it? I want a word slut T shirt. Tell me where they can find all this, Stu.

Oh, I mean, it's kind of a Mickey Mouse operation that I run myself, but I do, yeah, I do have some really fun, really cozy soft tie dye T shirts that you can find on my Instagram. And they say things like word slut smash the standard, Own your voice. Words can change the world.

It's fun, I love it. My head's exploding because there's so much to cover, but what could we do? So like I said, I have some consciousness, you know, around my, like, not Saying guys. And, you know, I have definitely always say vulva, but the problem is I always have to explain it because people still think vagina teach the appropriate language. But, you know, what is your mission? What's the.

I absolutely have a mission. Yeah. My mission is to empower folks to own their own voices. You know, I don't want to police anyone's language, and I don't want anyone to police my language. You know, I named my book word slut, and there are plenty of feminists who think that that might have been a mistake, who think that a word like slut is something that deserves to be abolished rather than reclaimed. And those are two directions that slurs tend to go in. Either go away forever, or they become reclaimed, either by just an in group or by everybody. A word like spinster or old maid seems out of date, because so does the idea of criticizing a woman for being over the age of 35 and unmarried. You know, that's not that big a deal anymore. And so words like spinster and old maid, which used to be quite offensive, fell out of favor. But a word like queer is a pretty victorious example of a gender sex slur that became reclaimed not only by the in group, by the. By the in community, but by everybody. And when it comes to slurs, you know, this is the optimist in me. But I really think that if we can reorient ourselves to start using words in only positive contexts, you know, only using bitch to say me and my bitches, only saying slut as a positive term, you know, ooh, I love your slutty outfit. I hope you have a slutty night. Or I love words more than anyone. I know I'm a word slut, then over time, the next generation will come of age only hearing the word in those positive contexts, and that's how reclamation will happen. And it's not an easy process. It's not a streamlined or linear process, and people are going to disagree along the way. There are still people who find that queer is offensive. It was once selectively a homophobic slur. Now it's largely been reappropriated by academia and the LGBTQ community to mean something neutral or even positive. But that's my opinion about slut, and that's what I want to do with it as someone who has the awareness of this language and chooses consciously how I want to use it moving forward. And that's really my crusade, you know, I want to communicate that if you're already on board with gender equality, if you're already on board with equality of the sexes, then you can maybe, you know, read words, letter, make yourself aware of some of the ways that our patriarchal standards or imbalanced standards are reflected and reinforced in our language. So then you can decide how you want to use it moving forward. You know, if you decide, okay, like guys is just something I can't get rid of. Guys is my thing. It's cozy, I love it, it's useful to me, so be it. But maybe you'll decide that you don't want to say vajayjay anymore or you don't want to say bone, drill and screw anymore. You don't want to say penetration. You don't want to use the word slut or bitch as terms of abuse. It's really, the power is ours. And that's the beautiful thing about language. And what linguists have always found is that, you know, women and gender non conforming folks have always used language as a form of social power in a culture that doesn't give us as many ways to assert our. And that's what I love about it.

Yeah, no, it's great where you're doing great work. Now what about slang? Like is there any slang that you're just like, I wish we could just stop saying, you know, bitches or you know, I mean a lot of them are derivative of women, of terms for women. Right? I mean, yeah, you know, pussy using.

Gendered terms of abuse against people is really uninteresting to me. Like if I want to insult someone's behavior and often I do, I prefer to be a little bit more accurate and, and specific and scathing about it. You know, if a woman does something that you don't like, it's a total cop out and wildly uninteresting to call her a bitch. If she does something conniving or something backstabbing. Why wouldn't you call her a manipulative, conniving, backstabbing, turncoat sack of shit? You know, be specific, be more, be.

Specific in your words, be specific in your compliments and in your criticism.

And in your criticism, you know, be specific. Have fun with it. That's the beauty of language, is that it's fun. So you know, when slang comes up, that and new slurs are always coming up and it's really reflective of our larger cultural values. So a slightly newer gendered slur that I've seen a lot on the Internet is the word simp. Are you familiar with this one?

Simp? No.

Yeah, tell me simp is like the new wimp. Like simp is a slang term that, that I've come to understand as a man who is like too sycophantic towards women. He sucks up to women and he's pathetic because of this. And so simp is used in a sort of slur type context, like, oh, you're such a simp. And I think the, you know, the popularization of this slur really reflects that our culture still condemns men who are too complimentary of women.

Yeah.

And so I resist terms like that. But when it comes to, you know, slang and language in general evolving and changing, I tend to, to adopt the perspective of a linguist. And instead of being sort of like judgmental about it or saying like, oh, these kids and their language, what do they know? I try to remain open minded and curious and flexible because language is always changing along with culture. Language changes precisely alongside social change. And so I can either be a camarudgeon and a pedant or I can jump aboard and use the slang terms too. And so that's the perspective I try to take.

Okay. No, I like your perspective. You know, it also, I think, like, what about if you have, you know, if you have kids. I was thinking about, you know, part of your book when you're talking about also how we use certain words for little boys and little girls. Like, you had a great example in there about you, you talking to your cat. But I would say that my, I had this issue and I didn't realize this until I was in therapy, like in my 20s, where my dad was always saying to my brother, like, you know, you're smart, you're handsome, you're clever. And I was like his pretty daughter. And he always said I was so pretty, you're so pretty. Pinching my child cheeks. And I think he thought I was smart as well. Right. But I never, you know, he died when I was young, so I never knew that. So in my head, you know, as a kid, I was like, oh, I'm just pretty. I'm, I'm pretty. I'm not, I'm not as smart. And I realized now in reading your book too, it's like thinking about how that really was. I had forgotten about it because now I know I'm smart and pretty. I thought, oh, what does it all mean? And that how even with, when you're raising your children that it's the language that you use as well. We don't even notice we're doing it. Sometimes I told my nieces, I'm like, you look really pretty. I'll be Talking to them on zoom. I'm like, you're so pretty, and you're really smart. You're really sweet, you know, because I'm trying to, like, balance it.

I know. It really is so deeply embedded, the words that are tacitly coded, male or female. And we can. We can even see this in context. You know, little kids, T shirts. Like, you'll see T shirts for little boys that'll say, like, fighter or heartbreaker or stud. And you'll see T shirts for girls that say princess and girl boss, you know, And I think that really does have a subtle and not so subtle effect on how we grow up in this culture. And that we frame gender roles and stereotypes manifests in these really profound ways in our language. And so just the awareness can invite us to push back against that if we want to.

Yeah. Well, I love that you made this all aware. Now I want to go back. I'm curious. This is just something else. Since we were covering a lot here in the 80s. It didn't. Guys didn't start till the 80s. What were we doing before that? Because I'm just trying to replace guys. Y' all feels like out of place to me, sort of, because I'm not from the south. And I feel like. I don't know how to say y' all right now at this point in my life, but what was it? Guys and gals before that.

So guys was used really just for men before, around the 80s. And when it cropped up as this new generic masculine term, linguists were quite surprised because after all the work that second wave feminists had done to make our language more equal, here was this new masculine gender generic, appearing out of nowhere. So they were quite surprised by it back in the day. Yeah. Guys and gals, you folks. You know, folks can sound a little.

Making a comeback. I kind of like folks totally.

It's making a comeback. What I also often remind people of is that, you know, some people push back against singular. They for entirely different reasons that we probably don't even have time to get into.

Next time.

Yeah, next time. But hundreds of years ago, we had a different. We had a second person plural pronoun, and it was you, your and yours. Like. Like we have now to refer to just one person. The thou and thine were the singular versions. So the singular version fell out of favor. You, your, and your is extended to mean a singular as well as a plural. And I don't know exactly that happened, but grammar is always, always evolving, always changing. Yeah, but now we have this problem where we say you guys, which is just one of so many default masculine language forms that we have in English. So I tend to say y', all, even though I'm not from.

Think I'm gonna work on it.

Yeah.

Hey, folks. Y'.

All.

I don't know. You're just. I've got. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you so much, Amanda Martel, for being here. So appreciate you and your book, Word Slut. I think, I mean, it really. It really opens your eyes if you have interest in. You call yourself a feminist. You like to practice, you know, equality, and you're focused on gender and sex. This book is for you. And you can get a T shirt. You can buy the book. Amanda Montel on Instagram. Her book is Word Slash. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

You know, it was so much fun. It's great. I was gonna ask you the five questions. Can someone put it here? So I want to ask you the five questions we asked all of our guests. Ready? What is your biggest turn on?

Oh, my biggest turn on quickie questions.

These are our quickie questions. So you can just say one.

When people have a youthful twinkle in their eye, like a naughty twinkle in.

Their eye, biggest turn off.

Pretentiousness.

What makes good sex respect? Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships.

Break up with your boyfriend.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

It's supposed to be weird.

I love it. Thank you, Amanda, for being here. Don't go anywhere. We've got so much more to talk about after this break. Foreign.

Let's talk to Matthew, 26 in Missouri. Hey, Matthew, what's going on? How can I help you?

Hey, Emily, thank you for taking my call.

Of course.

So I'm just getting back into the dating game, not looking for anything besides sex.

And.

Okay. I enjoy going down on a woman. It's something that I love to do. How do you know it's safe to do so without being like, hey, do you have an std?

Yeah. No, it's a great question. I mean, I. It's tricky because you gotta ask. I mean, I think you don't know. Right? Like, I think what I would love is to see a world where we are just like, hey, you know, I think you're super hot. Like, even from the first time, you know, there's chemistry and just saying, oh, like, I've been tested. I have a clean bell. Health can, you know, let me know if you. If you have Anything. How about you? And just asking straight up. And people I feel like are being more honest these days, and they're saying, yeah, you know, I've had herpes, but I take a daily suppressant or I have outbreaks a few times a year and I do something about it. And you can also see if there's an outbreak, obviously. But people could also have an STD and not know. So there's always risk. Right. But if you want to be 100% sure, you got to have the top. You gotta have the safe sex talk, which you could make it hot.

What's a tactful way to do that?

I think a tactful way is, you know. Well, you tell me, like, how fast are you moving with these women? Like, you said you're just looking for sex, right? Do they know that you're just looking for sex and not a relationship? Or you just kind of hook it up? Awesome for you. Either way, awesome that, you know. But it can be trickier if it's just like we're getting drunk and then we hook up and about to go down on her, and then I'm like, oh, have you been tested? I don't know. I mean, what's your scenario, like, Matthew, when you meet someone like. Like what? How soon do you know before you're going down on them?

Typically, so honestly, I haven't done anything yet.

Okay.

Going to meet a young lady at the end of the week. Yeah. We've already discussed, you know, the sex. We've already discussed, you know that it's nothing more than that. You know, I like to be up front, you know, so there's no okay question. Actually, I don't know if you remember this. I actually called you a couple of weeks ago, I think.

How about what?

And discussed that very thing, how to tell someone that you're just looking for sex.

Oh, right, right, right, right. How's it going? Clearly good. You have a date going well. Awesome. Matthew, people appreciate honesty, right? And I think you should say if you. Because here's the good news. The fact that you're being honest with women, saying right now, I'm not looking for anything serious. Believe me, there's a lot of women who are in your plate. You'll just find them easier, faster, Right. Rather than everyone's a potential wife, you're like, okay, I'm looking for people who aren't looking for a serious thing right now. But the good news is, but just being in the market for sex right now, it makes more sense to be like. And have you been tested? I'm curious about your STD status. What do you use for protection?

I'm just gonna loop it into that.

Just loop it in. Say, I've got two things I wanna discuss that are important. I found trying to, you know, act with integrity when I'm dating. Right now, that's the most important thing to me, you could say. Cause I really want to be in healthy relationships. And I think great sex is, you know, important. And I'm really just looking for, you know, know, sex or however you want to say it. I'm looking for a physical relationship more than an emotional relationship. But also, it's really important to me that we practice safe sex. So we have to always use condoms, which I think you have to do, even if someone's on the pill. But I think you know that. And then you could say, ask them. Say, you know, have you been tested? And then stop talking. And I think the more people. I love this call, Matthew, because the more people who just said this straight up, be so goddamn healthy, such a healthier place, we would just be like, oh, yeah, of course we're having that conversation. Right? Just like the. Define the relationship. So thank you for your question. Thanks, Matthew. I'm gonna answer an email. This is from Karen, 30, in Illinois. And she says, I'm curious, in your research, how common is it for women to enjoy giving blowjobs? My partner loves them and wants more of them, but I can't seem to figure out the appeal and pleasure of giving them. Do you have any suggestions? I've tried flavored lubes and sprays and use hands. I don't find giving a blowjob to be intimate. It feels more like a chore or service. I have to give to give him happy. I've learned so much from your podcast. Thank you. I'd love if you could do a future episode talking about the emotional intimacy side of sex. It's something I also struggle with understanding. I was raised hyper conservative. I'm still trying to refine my sexuality and confidence in the bedroom. Sigh. All right. This is more complex than you think, to answer this question because. Because I love that she's got into emotional intimacy. Because that's how you, I believe, learn to love giving pleasure to your partner. You know, people say, oh, that's why I call it a job. I personally have been in periods where I was like, it's a job. And then I've learned about emotionally intimate sex, which is also something you have to learn. And so it sounds like maybe for Karen here, it's not like this is a more complex answer. But if you're feeling that sex is something like she said she grew up in a conservative home where sex wasn't, you know, openly discussed. Maybe it was discouraged. So here's what happens. Grow up in a home where nobody talks about sex. And when they do, they say, wait till you're married or it's wrong. Unless you're married, or it's wrong all the time, or it's only for procreation. And then you. You don't get any information. But then you go off into the world and you start having sex. So in your mind, you're thinking, this is wrong. I'm naughty. I'm a bad girl. I'm violating. Not in, like, the sexy, like, you're a bad girl, but, like, I am bad, you know. And so your relationship with sex from the jump is starting out as something that's very conflicted, right? Like, you're on the one hand, you're thinking, oh, I've heard that sex is amazing and it's supposed to be this great thing, but your brain is telling you something else. Your mind, your repetitive thoughts. So emotional intimating sex is. Is really about being with. I think it first, it starts with being comfortable with yourself and your own body and what feels good to you and kind of healing your relationship with sex. We all have one, right? We all have one. You know, for. For Karen, it sounds like she grew up realizing that, you know, hearing it wasn't great. So that's kind of like the first step is saying, oh, what I heard growing up is no longer a message that's going to speak to me anymore. I get to choose my own beliefs around sex. And then you start really kind of changing that. And. But then also with a partner, she just feels like she's just given it and not receiving it. Like, that's a very empty feeling. Like, now is my turn to give you a blowjob. But the most connected ways, I think, is when you were with somebody and you realize, like, I really love this person or I want to give them pleasure. Like, you could think of it as like, this penis is an extension of somebody that I am into, and I love them and I want to, in a sense, like, worship this part of them. I want to be like, I can do something that can make my partner feel really great right now. And you realize that it's just sort of, you know, if you're a giver, like, you know, you bring someone something when they're sick, or you do a Favor for a friend. It's like, I'm going to give them. We get filled up by giving. Like, giving is receiving. So I think of sex in that way. Like, if you give someone something with enthusiasm and love, even if you don't love them, like, say it's just a hookup, but it's still your intention, is that I'm into this because I'm here and I'm doing it. That typically comes back to you. So when you go into something with an energy of like, I'm going to be into this job right now. I'm going to be into it. I'm going to lick this like, it's the most delicious ice cream cone I've ever had. When you go in with that mindset, like, it's just, I'm going to see what this penis. It's going to sound silly, but, like, I'm gonna see what I can get out of this or I can give to this person. It sort of comes back to you. Now, another thing, another awesome tip, because that's a process, but it is true that when you give, you receive, and when you look at it differently, it'll feel differently. But we had a great guest on our show. Shani was on the podcast. She talks about using a vibrator on herself while she's going down on her husband. And she's like, it's a sure thing, because I'm getting turned on. I'm aroused. Got the magic wand, the sure vibrator, the sure thing. We love the magic wand. And then I'm giving pleasure to him, and I'm aroused. So, yes. I mean, I'm telling you, when we're all turned on, that is the best thing we can do. And that's why it really helps to please each other. Right? That's why I always say, like, she comes first. Like, go down on your partner, then you're already roused. Maybe you go down on them. But I. That's why I also love toys, because toys are an excellent way to make sure that, you know, we only have so many hands and mouths and fingers and things to do. So I love that she's just riding her magic wand. That's a way to get you going. Like, if I could carry around the magic wand all day, I would be into any task I'm doing. Right. Like, you're like, I am having an orgasm and doing the radio show. I haven't done that yet. But sex with them. We have not had an orgasm on the air. That is true. True. I mean, there's something to be said for just blindly going into a blowjob and you're not even roused and turned on. Like, that's really hard, too. Like, I'm not saying you can peel back their pants and be like, I am worshiping this penis and it's everything. So you also want to make sure that you're aroused and turned on. So since I didn't talk to Karen, but she sent the email, there is a lot to just kind of showing up and being performative, you know, I don't know if Karen's having orgasms or having pleasure or knows how to ask for her needs being met, but that is part of the sexual journey. And remember this about your sex sex life. It is not a destination, it is not a skill set that you get somewhere. You're done learning about sex that doesn't happen. I suppose if you are an athlete, right, you're never done being a great athlete. You're not like, I'm at the top of my game and I will never get better. Or if you're a cook, a chef, you're like, I'm going to keep learning new recipes. If you think of your sex as life as something that is more of a journey and you don't just get somewhere where you're like, I've learned how to give a great blowjob. Check. I've learned how to have this kind of orgasm. Check, check. Next, it just. I've learned that in all these years, and I wanted you to impart this to you, that it's never an end point. And whether you are with yourself, loving yourself, or you're with a partner, that should be really good news. Like, that should make you feel like a relief right now. Because the other thing about your sex life is it's always changing. Bodies change what you want in your 20s, you don't want in your 30s, you might want something different. And if you look at that in your relationship right now, you can just say to your partner, you know, I realize that I love our sex. It's amazing. But we should try some new things. Just because, you know that's part of sex. Like, that is part of your responsibility of being a sexual human, I believe.

Is to constantly be, you know, be constantly could be. Like, it's in your mind you're prioritizing, learning to be a better lover to yourself and others. I mean, I just think that that's why sex gets old. I mean, having sex the same way your entire life is like eating chicken every single night for dinner, having the same meal every single night. It's always the same. Let's talk to Steve in New York. Hi, Steve. Thanks for calling.

Hi, Dr. Holly. How are you?

I'm great. What's going on?

Well, basically, at this point, I'm between relationships, I like to say. And obviously, the reason why, it's because it wasn't the same way at the end as it was in the beginning. Every relationship, I believe, starts off well. Otherwise you wouldn't be in it, especially the last little long time. Yeah, at some point, it spirals down, but I think that's natural. Even though I'm like, you're the doctor, but I'm no psychologist, but I live on the same planet you do, so I could figure life out. My theory on relationships is this, and you could tell me if I'm right or wrong. But any two people under the same route, same sex, opposite sex, two brothers, two sisters, boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife, any combination, eventually you get in each other's way, and then the argument starts, so to speak. Now, what you try to do is overcome that, like you say, and work on it. You need a little cooperation on the other side. Yeah.

Someone who can talk. Okay.

But you need somebody to do that. And I'm wondering, how do you either get them to come aboard or how do you try to avoid, you know, the arguments as a relationship goes? Because that's not really what I want in a relationship. But it seems to always morph into that. And not just me. For a lot of people, all my friends that are still married are saying, you're lucky and I'm married. I'm thinking to myself, okay, so there's not a Utopia either, either.

No. Okay, so, Steve. No, I'm with you. So it's such a good question, because you're right. This is. This is what I was saying to my team right before the show. I was like, you guys, every relationship is hard. You have to understand, once the honeymoon phase is over and it will end, we have to be good communicators, and we have to. I think I was saying to them on the call, I was like, yeah, we all have stuff. We all have our issues. Maybe we're narcissists or love bombers or codependent or alcoholics or, like, we all have stuff, every one of us. So then you got to find a partner whose stuff you can work with. Like, how are we going to communicate together with what we're both bringing to the table? So to answer your question, knowing, like, we should go into relationships, knowing there's going to be conflict. And how do you tell, like, early on, you're like, how do you communicate, interviewing people? I'm like, for my company, I'll say, how do you deal with conflict? They're like, you know, they're like, oh, I people pleaser. I don't. Or if they're like, oh, I have to just dress it head on, right? So I think you could sort of vet somebody because of course, there's no problems when you're falling in love. That's why you're falling in love.

And then it's too late, like to keep that going. But sometimes it doesn't keep going in my life, and not with anybody at this point, it's because the marriage failed. The any of the relationships, be it long or short, they failed. But I look back and I say, every time it was the same thing. It was utopia. It was a heaven at the beginning and then practically spiral down to hell at the end, huh? I'm trying to avoid the hell, you know.

Yeah, no, no, Steve, you can avoid the hell, though. Here's the thing. You can avoid hell, but to get attached to utopia doesn't exist. And in fact, you'd get sick of utopia if it did. I promise you, you'd find a way to make it less than. That's just the cycle of life, right? Things are good, then they're bad, they're good, you're bad. You go up and down, up and down, but you just hope that the downs are not these deep, dark, dark pits of despair where you just can't get back up again. So I think, first off, I would say this is your expectations, or when it gets really bad, it just keeps escalating, going down, but you never bring it back again. And so if you've always had this experience, guess what the common denominator is you.

Me.

So I would say this has more to do with you than there not being anyone out there that's going to be right for you. I would say, like, what have you learned from your past relationship about yourself? How old are you, Steve?

65.

65. Got it. So what have you learned about yourself at 65?

Well, I think. You talk about what I learned about me.

Well, I think. How about, Steve, what was your part in the demise of these disastrous relationships over the last 40 years?

Well, again, you know, you're not going to like the way I'm putting this. Only because I think, think if I were a woman and a guy treated me the way I treated them, I'd be grateful and I'd say, hey, I got a hell of a guy. Thank you. That's how I honestly feel. Because I think I'm. Why? Because I think everything that I do, I try to put my mate first and make a happy and do nice things for her. And I'm saying to myself that I'm scratching my head, saying, what is she mad at now? You know, and that's the part that doesn't make too much sense to me.

So you're. Okay, so you're just giving and giving and giving and you're being this great guy and they're just getting mad at you. You're just good. You're. You're. You're perfect. So I think that's part of it.

I didn't say I'm perfect, but. No, but I'm saying I do something wrong. You don't even realize you're doing something wrong. But, you know, sometimes people get upset over the most trivial of matters and, okay, let me know it. But instead I think it harbors and festers and then eventually at the end, it's. It blows up.

Do you ever think, though, Steve, maybe.

Some of them mean or nasty to any. Anybody that I.

Let me tell you what it is, Steve. Can I be honest with you? Is that what it sounds to me, is that, you know, you're 65 years old and I'm asking you for, like, what is the work that you've done to understand who you are in a relationship? Like, even saying, maybe sometimes I don't listen as well. You know, maybe sometimes I get really. When someone asks me for something, I get really passive aggressive. If someone tries to confront me in something, I shut them down. Because I do so much. I do so much. I do so much. How could she ever tell me to put my dish in the sink? Because I just paid for the house and did all the things. You know what I mean? Like, there's gotta be something.

Yeah, look, I'm not gonna lie to you. That probably is. But, you know, in other words, let's assume I'm just picking an arbitrary thing. Let's assume I go into the store and I run. I know I did something wrong. Okay, so, you know, how do you have to say, gee, no, I didn't do anything wrong. I know I did wrong. If I'm being nice to you in a relationship and I'm trying to do everything and then all of a sudden seems to morph and you're upset, I'm scratching my head going, what are you upset over? Because I really, really didn't do anything blatantly wrong or intentionally wrong.

But, Steve, what I'm saying is I could imagine that in all your years, there had to have been. Have been signs, right? It's not like one day it just blew up and ended. But I think that's how your lens of things is that I'm so doing everything great, and then all of a sudden, they're not happy with me. So I feel like learning how to move through conflict is how you sustain a healthy relationship. It's not that it always stays utopian. It's something really hard happened and it sucked. And then we moved through it. Our intimacy was stronger, and it made our relationship stronger because we were able to communicate and listen to each other. And it sounds to me like that's not an experience of yours. So to me, like, there's. That's just. That just doesn't make sense to me. Like, I'm telling you is my. This is my job. Study relationships, talk to relationships, help people in relationships. I would say for you, it would have to be learning how to deal with conflict. And I'm sure if you go back in time, there's probably things that they all had feedback for you on this. They probably wanted to talk about things. Maybe they didn't feel seen by you or heard by you, or you weren't. It was your way of the highway because you were paying the bills, or you were such a perfect guy. But nobody's perfect. And sometimes we give so much. People who love bomb, people who give, give, give, and then they expect everyone's dependent on them and without, you know, realizing they have to do anything else. Like, I give and give and give and no one respect, you know, so it's kind of like a victim. I don't know, Steve. I don't want to say. Like, I mean, it's not fair because, you know, I don't know you. We just met, but how do you deal with conflicts with anybody in your life? You know, do you cut them?

Well, a lot of times I would just try to calm it down. I hate the controversy, but, I mean, there you go.

Will I ever get mad and fire back? Yeah. I mean, enough is enough is enough type deal. Otherwise.

Yeah. So anger. So you diffuse, you diffuse. You diffuse. You don't want anyone to get mad at you. You don't want anyone to be upset with you, so you just say, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And then finally you lose it because you're like, I don't want to deal, I don't want to deal. I don't want conflict. I don't want conflict. I don't get. Then you blow up. So what happens is the first time someone comes to you and has a problem, you listen, you say, tell me more about that. It's a practice. It's never too late to learn. But it sounds to me like this is the work that you need to do right now. And you'll never be in a healthy relationship until you learn. And I would say therapy would be amazing. And I'm always, I'm always skeptical. People are like, oh, my relationship is perfect. We never fight. We get along so well. I'm like, that's not a good thing because if you don't know how to have healthy conflict, it's not gonna last.

So appreciate it.

All right. Thanks, Steve. Thanks for calling. Appreciate you. You guys, there's so much more to talk about, so don't miss my next episode. Subscribe to Second Sex with Emily. Email me feedbackexwithemily.com and on all social media, it's at Sex with Emily. Thanks everyone for supporting our sponsors. You know, we only work with sponsors that we that we enjoy ourselves. And I hope you do too.

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