Best of: Gender-Chill with Jacob Tobia

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Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them. In a bygone day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. We're talking about sex, relationships and everything in between. For more information, check out sexwithemily.com you're gonna love our site. If you haven't been there yet, you can just google things. All the questions you send me, you email me. There's a lot of answers on our site. With incredible blogs to help you have a better life. Find me in all social media. It's exwithemily across the board. Are you not following us. I don't understand. Because you can send questions everywhere. Everywhere. Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. All right, guys, I hope you enjoy this interview with Jacob Tobias. Jacob Tobias, welcome back to the show.

I'm so glad to be back.

I'm so. You have had quite a journey since we've seen you last.

It's been a minute.

Yeah, I know, I know. I keep looking up and you're like, everywhere. And you just wrote a book. You guys, we are gonna talk about Jacob's book, a coming of gender story. And I just wanna congratulate you on all of your success. We were just talking about seeing you on Trevor Noah, which was amazing. And just all the places you've been telling your story, just to bring people up to speed, like, I know your whole story. You first thought that you were gay and there were no other terms. There were no other terms until very, very recently. And so now how would you identify? How do you identify now?

So the way I talk about identity is that a lot of times people are like, oh, identity is this one word that you have to pick. You know, like, it's like the one word you have to pick and then stick to it. And I think that's a really boring way to lead our lives and also pretty limiting. So I prefer to think about identity as like a layer cake and you can never get too tall, you know what I mean? Your cake just becomes more opulent the more layers you add to it. And like, you know, you have to add some support rods or whatever and like, have better support structures if you want to add more layers. I guess I've been watching too much. Nailed it on Netflix.

But you need it.

So now I'm thinking all about like, no, put the rods in the cake. Like, when I make a layer cake analogy, I hear Nicole Byer yelling at me. But anyway, no, it's like, you know, so for me, the way I think about it is that I've just been building layers on my identities.

Right, okay, Right.

So in high school, you know, when I. When I, you know. Well, even earlier. Yeah, like, even earlier than high school when I started going through puberty, my gender was always different. But then, you know, I feel like it got shut down pretty early. Right? Like, gender non conforming children often are kind of taught what's what. By the time you're like five, you.

Know, you knew at five you were.

Yeah, by the time I was four or five, I knew that for whatever reason, the way I wanted to express myself was not okay. Right. That I needed to Figure out what it meant to be a boy in this world, that I had to learn to sort of perform that and color inside those lines if I wanted to have any friends or any like, you know, and survive at school and like, have any affirmation from really anybody. And so, you know, my gender kind of became an afterthought. And then puberty hit and my sexuality was just not an afterthought at all. Right. And so for a long time, gay was the word that I used to describe myself because it was kind of the most pressing need, it was like the most urgent one because, you know, I'm in the middle of puberty, right? Yeah. And I was just like, oh my God, like, my sexual difference is definitely something I'm feeling. And my gender difference, I've kind of like repressed so deeply that I don't even realize it.

Right.

And then through exploring my identity in the gay community, I realized, like, you know, oh, there's this thing called trans. Oh, there's this thing like there's gender non conforming people. Oh, there are like genderqueer and non binary people. Oh my God, there's all of these words. And this whole playing field is so much wider than I thought it was. And so now, you know, I understand myself not as like a man or as a woman. I just, I. I just want to live my life in a way that is sort of between and outside of those labels.

Right. That makes sense.

You know, And I still have a male body. Right. Like, I'm not denying the fact, like my physiology. That's, that's, that's, that's my body. But I don't think that our bodies should ever be our destinies. Right. Like, I don't think that you should look at any one person's body and say, because of your body, I am entitled to coerce you to be a certain way. Right.

Like, it's such a crazy new way of thinking though, that people just. Because even just talking about like sexuality, because you're talking not just about gender, but and your sexual orientation.

Yeah.

And even that's confusing to people. It's like all of it. And I love what you're saying, because why do we have to put people in this two. It does seem very limiting.

I understand that everyone's been limited by this way of thinking. Right. I mean, if you think about the last century of feminist struggle, it's been about creating space for women to inhabit a broader range of gender expression. Like one moment that people forget was like a historical moment is that there was actually a first time in history when a woman wore pants in a major motion picture. Like, that was a historical achievement. It was Katharine Hepburn. I cannot remember the year, but she was the first woman to wear pants in a major motion picture. And people sort of take for granted all of the work that's been done around expanding the possibilities of women's gender expression over the last century. But it's like, no, no, no, that wasn't an accident. That was based on blood, sweat, and tears of activists who gave up tons and sacrificed a lot and were the subject of scorn and derision and hateful remarks and glares and all of that kind of st. And now I think what I'm trying to do and what I think we as a culture are trying to do is to think about, okay, now we need to look at the other side of the coin on this binary way of thinking about things and think about, like, what does it mean to give people, you know, male assigned people and people who are raised as boys greater access to expression? What does it mean to give people just the ability to kind of play around more and not have such huge consequences for doing something as trivial as wearing lipstick?

Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about your style then, because you look fabulous. Like, how do you. And have you always. What is your style? How would you even describe it? Like, you. Do you have a stylist? Have you always loved, like, dressing up? Like, have you always favored women's clothing?

Well, I. I feel like I've always. It's, you know, it's funny because I don't. I wouldn't say that I favor women's clothing so much as I say that I favor expressive clothing.

Right, because you are in our culture.

Expressive clothing most often happens to be made for women. Although every now and then I find a men's piece that I'm like, ooh, you know, every now and then I like being a little more understated or whatever. And there are moments where, like, where men's fashion works for me, but most of the time, I end up wearing sort of a blend of the two. Right. Like, for example, yeah, I like men's pants because they structured a little bit better for me. Like, I feel like I, like, I don't mind wearing men's pants. Like, I'm wearing men's jeans right now, and I'm definitely wearing men's cowboy boots. But I feel like cowboy boots are kind of the great gender neutral shoe.

Yeah, they are.

You know, like, everyone looks fucking good in a pair of cowboy boots?

Yes, absolutely.

Everyone looks fucking sexy. You know, I'm like, anytime someone's wearing cowboy boots, I'm just like, I agree with skirts.

Wearing pants. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And then. And then I'm wearing this little, like, actually, I got this really recently. It's a. It's a picture. I'm tough to describe. It's a blazer, and then it's embroidered with these little rainbow elephants that are kind of marching around the perimeter of it.

Is it vintage or is it in.

Giant grass that's glitter embroidered? And so I got this in the Goodwill in Cary, North Carolina, because I was home visiting my family.

The best in the South.

Yeah. Yes. But also this one, Goodwill isn't even that good. Like, you know, on the scale of Goodwill's, this one's pretty mediocre. But it's the one that's closest to my house. And my friend was helping her mom clean out her house, so we went there to drop off stuff. And I was like, let's just take a quick browse. And I saw just, like the little tendril of grass and one elephant on the sleeve poking out of the rack. And I was like, that's what I'm buying.

That's it. Done and done with the pin. Why'd you put that on?

Yeah, so that's. So my stylist is Goodwill.

And that's also because I feel like, spiritually, I just love wearing secondhand stuff. Especially stuff like at Goodwill or stuff at, like, really, like, you know, at like, proper thrift stores. Because it feels like it's really been kind of abandoned spiritually, you know, like, I don't know how someone let themselves part with, like, this pink little elephant.

Yeah, I know. I know.

You know, I'm like, her name is Patricia. She has feelings.

Right, Exactly.

You know, like, how, like, how are you just gonna let this jacket go? Like it's lined in purple. Like, it's so good.

That fucking fits. It's amazing.

Yeah. And so I feel like I'm rehoming, you know, clothes.

It's working. It's totally working. So. Ok. Okay. So this is your style. When you go out there in the world, like, how do you feel like, you are so brave, Jacob. Like, I just look at all the things you're doing, and through reading your book, like, all your stories are just. It was so. It's so real, and you're so vulnerable. And I love, like, all your messaging. Like, okay, here's why your kids, like, some articles you've written. Kids, your kids are Gonna stare at me? Here's what it means. Or everyone does. They just don't get it. It's confusing. Is it trans? Who do you sleep with? What are you all about? And I just wanna congratulate you on all that braveness that you. That you just keep. How do you keep going with all this? What do you think that comes from?

Well, I mean, a lot of it is the fact that I'm really stubborn. Okay, that's been really helpful in my life. Some of it is the fact that I'm a Leo, because I'm just really showy by nature, you know, I'm just showy little lion prancing around. And, you know, and the bigger thing is that I learned bravery through community, you know, Like I didn't learn to be. That's the thing I hate most about when we tout kind of like queer or trans achievements. So often we tout them as if people who are like the first gay whatever or the first trans whatever accomplish that because of their singular bravery. And bravery never happens in a vacuum.

That's so true.

Like, you only learn to be brave because someone else helped you figure out what being brave meant. And I don't like it how as a culture, we often erase the fact that bravery is a collective process, not an individual one. You know, it's not like we're all like some cowboy in a western movie, like going out into the middle of the town, challenging someone to a shoot off. Like even that dude had people supporting him, you know, and people teaching him to be brave and people teaching him what it meant. And so, you know, the bravery. I feel like where I've gotten my bravery from was over a really long, like a decades long process of being surrounded by other queer and trans people who are braver than I was. And eventually you just kind of have this osmosis, you know, you just kind of start to take on a little bit of their bravery and you start to reinforce each other's bravery. And all of a sudden you go from feeling like you're super alone and have no idea how to do this to feeling like if something happens, I have an entire community of people that have my back.

You really do. Let's talk about this. Because you had to come out for gender and sexual orientation. So do you feel like you have to stop and you have to explain and what's happening with right now with all the attentions getting. Because I'm telling you, like I was in New York, for example. I had meetings with some executives that all had kids like in their 20s right now.

Like, yeah, I love having meetings with executives.

Don't you do that? Like, I, they just happened to be those people and they were like, well, you know what you should do, Emily? Like, everything's about sex now. Like they had kids in college who were like 20, 18, 20, and they're like, you know, everything's about like this, you know, gender binary now and sexual orientation. And they're all like, they all don't know what they are and they all think that they're bisexual, but maybe they're gay and it's just, you should.

Everyone is bisexual.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, you're bisexual as well. Just wait till that happens. Mr. Mr. Executive.

Oh my God. Like every exec you're meeting with is like, what I'm saying, like, my 20 year old is bisexual and like he really doesn't know what to do about it. And you're like, okay, so you're bisexual and you don't know what to do about it. That's what I'm getting from this conversation.

It was two people, it was two in a row. It was a woman whose kids were, were also in their 20s and she's like, it's like, this is what you need to tackle. So, so what do you see happening right now? Like, where do you, like, where you're at? And then like, what do we hope to see from everything that you're doing? Like, what do you think is happening? Do you think that this is kind of, you're paving the way? I know a lot of people paved the way for you, but like, what is happening with sex? Like, what do you think that we have to understand now with sexual orientation?

My big goal right now is I want to create a world where like bi and pansexual folks have all the freedom that they deserve and need to express everything that they desire. Right? And, and I say I could pretend that I do that. I believe that like from a place of like magnanimity or generosity, but it's from a place of profound and deep selfishness. Because if this bitch is ever going to get laid, like bi and pansexual people need to be liberated, like way more, you know, like I need people to be able to acknowledge that they're attracted to people along the trans spectrum, especially like men or masculine of center folks. If you look at the world of por, right, it's very clear that like trans people are deeply attractive to so many people out there. But then if you look at our culture, like, where are the, where are the like, you know, CIS men dating trans women on television, but they're not.

But they're doing it right. What do you find? Like, I mean, it's happening all the time. But that, that hasn't. There hasn't been that person yet. There hasn't been the cisgender man who's out there saying, yeah, this is what I'm attracted to.

Right.

And what turns me on.

Yeah. And like, I need people to be able to name that. Like when I walk by in high heels and like a cute little skirt and. And like, you know, my toned as fuck legs that are hairy as hell like that. There's a lot of people who are like, mmm. I need them to acknowledge that, you know what I mean? Like, I like, I don't get why people are so ashamed to acknowledge their desire for gender non conforming people. Like, we're sexy, we're fun.

You're so fun. Like, I want to be best friends. I felt this last time, like, we should hang out. Like, right?

Which like, we really should.

I know we should. Like, I feel that too. We're practically neighbors.

We just realized I'm not doing anything this summer.

Really? Nothing.

I mean, I like, I have like, it's like one of those things where I'm like pitching. I'm like pitching this big project at the end of June and then after that I might be doing a lot of work, but I also might be doing literally nothing.

Are you dating? What are you doing? Like, what's your life like now since the book came out?

Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that I'm dating a ton, but I am very much on the market and trying to be. I'm trying to find ways to like, I'm working on my own desire too, because I feel like I, you know, I'm really dissatisfied with how I was raised. Like in terms of the cultural cues I was given around what is attractive and what is desirable. And I hate, I hate the way that my erotic conditioning was controlled by all of these shitty Disney executives out in la. You know what I mean?

No, it's true. The story about the prince and the princess and coming to save it was just this, right?

And I'm just sort of like, who decided that, oh, what we're gonna do is we're gonna make every middle schooler in the country fetishize Zac Efron, right? Like, who made that decision?

Don't even find him cute, you know.

Because I'm like, I'm like, I think he's cute, but I'm Like, I would like to think that more than just that is cute, you know? And I have, like, this whole. I feel like I have this. There's. There's, you know, there's like, the ability you can expand what your brain thinks about, but then, like, getting into your subconscious of your desires takes, like, more measured work.

It does. It's like, erotic. That's kind of sucks. Like, somatic therapy. I've done the somatic. And talk about everyone has an erotic blueprint. We all have a. An erotic map, and there's like a primary erotic thought that kind of turns us out. If we don't, we have to go finding it. But what is that? And then you kind of expand that. You start to think about your fantasies, and you start to think about. I've had to do that work too. What really turns me on. And is it just a threesome? Because most people are, like, limited with, like, threesomes.

Right.

Or threesomes. What's the other way?

What are other things that people are turned on by?

It's the top fantasies, like threesomes. Group sex. Okay. That's kind of the same thing. Dominate submission.

Yeah. Like S and M S and M. Yum.

Yeah, I like that too.

Yeah. But have you.

Yeah. So how do you figure out what. Really.

Right. And I think what I'm focused on right now, like, my dream partner.

Tell me. I want to know.

Is. And I. And I found a few people who are kind of like this. But, like, my dream partner is also femme. Like, I want to date. I want to date a femme. You know what I mean? Like, I want to be with, like, another. Like, I. And you know, I'm open to other possibilities. Right. Like, I'd be down to date. Like, I'd be down to date, like, trans dudes. I'd be down to date, like, maybe a butch. Like a hot, butch lady. I could. I could get. I could get down with. I would need her to approach me. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because I'm like, sort of. I'm not. I'm not 100% sure what I'd do with that. And I feel like it's weird to approach.

Have you been with.

I haven't yet, but it's on my goal list.

Never been with.

It's on my. Like, I want to figure it out.

A vulva in your face?

No, but I'm like. I feel like there's a way that I could get into that, but I would need someone with just, like, a blistering amount of confidence and A deep confidence of how much they wanted me, and also an acknowledgement that, like, part of that sometimes radical sex can look like helping people learn what they're into. Right.

And you know what I mean? It is true. You need someone who maybe wants to be a teacher. Maybe they're learning as well.

Yes. I need someone who, like, erotically wants to be a teacher. Like, who's like, I'm gonna teach you, and I'm gonna get turned on by the fact that, like, you might fail, and then I get to give you an F, and then we'll go. We'll try again.

Exactly. There are people like that. I love it. So you're kind of on your erotic journey because, in a way, a lot of this has been heady for you, I would think. Totally. And it's kind of not about sex.

Right, Right.

I would think. Not that you're not sexual, but I would feel like this is just. Because I get that too. I've been so caught up in my business lately that I'm, like, sort of on this, like, taking a break lately from dating. I kind of call it, like, sanatorium. Right. So I'm, like, literally having a show, not having sex. Been like, six months, five months, which I haven't even. Haven't said that out loud yet, but it's true. I'm doing it.

Yeah, I'm on. I'm on. I'm on even longer than that, so don't worry.

It's okay.

You're in good company.

Yeah, but it's like. But I get it. So then getting into your body and what feels good, Because I feel like, yeah, it's something to look at something, and also where you have to present. People probably don't know what you're. Because. Okay, so say so saying trans, because transgender, how do you explain, like, you're not having any surgery. You're not changing. You love your male body.

In terms of, like, trans folks, I think that there's. That one of the big problems we have in our culture is that everything about sexuality is coded with gender.

Right.

Almost everything. In terms of how we understand what it means to fuck people, what it means to be intimate, what it means to have relationships. The way we're taught about those things from the earliest age, the way we're conditioned, is that you have to fit into one of these two categories in order to make sense. Right. And I'm kind of like, what would it mean for us to, like, what would it mean for all of us to find different ways of making sense to One another.

Right. Like, how would that look? Like, tell me your future. Your dream future.

I mean, like, my dream future, I think, is that. What does it look like? I think I want to be, like, married to a drag queen.

Okay.

You know, like, I want to find, like, my, like, femme top dom. Like, you know, husband.

Okay.

And. Or partner. Yeah.

I'm just picturing this for you. Then we can.

Yeah, I think for now at least. We'll see.

Okay.

You're so young, too, at the current moment.

You're such a late 20s, right?

Yeah, I'm like. I'm still a little baby in terms.

Of figures, but you're so much like, you're. Yeah, you really. I mean, I'm just so impressed with all the. I don't want to cut you off, but you've done so much work on yourself.

Well, it's funny, too, because I feel like I've done so much work on my gender, where it's, like, about me and the work I can do myself, but the erotic work, like, and sexual liberation, you have to work with other. I mean, like, I feel like I've liberated myself sexually pretty well, like, on my own.

And also, like, with some of your help, Emily, because of. I mean, the last time I came into. For the podcast, the amount of toys I left with. Holy shit.

Oh, my God. Did you. What did I give you? Because we got more.

Oh, I got. I got, like. I got. I had never had a flashlight before, and I was like, wow, this is. This is, like, beautiful. And it's like one of those crystal one, like, the clear ones is really cute. Okay, I feel. I got. What did I get? There's, like, some really cute butt plugs. Some really cute. Like, a really nice, like. Like a really nice primo dildo. There's a lot of really good shit.

Okay, good.

Like gallons of lube. Not gallons, but, like.

No, no, I'm sure it could have been a gallon.

Not like, not a gallon, but like a bunch. Like, multiple containers. I just feel like it was. It was really great for my. It was a really great sort of like. Like, you know, sometimes you're writing the.

Book, you can take a masturbation break.

You just need ways to, like, reduce the tension. Yeah, totally.

That's what it is.

Totally.

Oh, I love it.

But, yeah, you know, I feel like the thing that's more difficult is that doing kind of sexual liberation work sometimes, oftentimes it requires somebody else to explore with. You can't just explore with yourself. I mean, you can, but, like, there's Parts you can't just explore with yourself. And so it's, you know, finding. Figuring out how to find people and what kind of exploration I want and how to communicate that to other people. Like, that's a whole other journey that I'm doing just beginning.

Exactly. And I think that part of that journey is being honest and saying, like, I'm exploring. Are you ready to play? And I think people are more open to that now. They definitely are more open to exploring and playing with you. Okay, so tell me what it's like to be able to. Since I saw, I guess you were working on the book and what was it like to write your whole story? I can only imagine. Really cathartic in that, how much you learned. Just the process of writing it. Yeah.

I mean, I say this, and I don't say it lightly, that writing this book was actually, like, the most healing thing I think I've ever done. Because, I mean, if you think about it, like, it's. In some ways, it's the best therapy. Right. Because how often so much of, like, therapeutic practice in my life has been taking a story that you've told yourself about something that happened in your life and then finding a way to retell it with yourself as the protagonist.

Yes.

You know, and, like, how to. How to tell it in a way that is more empathetic towards you and what you are going through and where you're not blaming yourself so much for everything that's going on and where you're giving yourself freedom to, like, be imperfect in certain moments and be confused in other moments. And I feel like doing that for 300, 400 pages.

It changes you, and it changes your heart in ways that are. That, you know, are permanent and are beautiful.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it was also a way to kind of take. It was a way to synthesize everything, because I knew what was true about my gender. But then taking sort of the arc of it and putting it all together and figuring out how the different parts of my life and different moments of my life all strang. Went together.

It was like the most interesting, beautiful jigsaw puzzle. And then I put it together, and finally I was like, oh, I can see what this image has been the whole time.

Yeah, I totally get. Have you been in therapy, too, in this process?

Oh, totally. And before this process and the trauma.

Right. So I was.

Everyone needs to be in therapy. Just go get in therapy. Everybody, like, stop listening and go get therapy.

I agree. I see that. Everybody.

And then come listen again when you're back, like, after Exactly. Like on your ride to and from.

I say all the time.

Yeah.

And then I had someone correct me. I just home in Michigan, visit my family. Like, not everybody. What you could say is most people can benefit from therapy. I was like, no, literally, I think everyone needs.

No, literally every person who can't. Yeah. Because, like, the idea of, like, no, I'm like, because if I feel like. If you're saying I don't need therapy, what you're saying is my emotional architecture is perfect. And I'm like, okay, you need to get off that high horse. Because the moment, especially if you think that you don't need therapy, you're like, deeply in need of therapy.

Right, Exactly. Thank you.

If people are like, well, I could probably benefit from therapy, but I'm really busy and I'm not quite sure if my need is acute enough at this present moment. Though I bet I could stand to really gain something from a once a month kind of situation. Then I'd be like, okay, maybe you can get out of being in therapy for a few months and I won't yell at you.

Right. As long as you're considering it, because it takes a while. But I think you just, you just got to get in there. I mean, for me, starting therapy in my mid-20s, like, every single week for like, I don't know, forever, 20 something years still. But I went off. But I went off it. I went off therapy for six years. I'm back. And it's like doing the work, trauma work. Because I was thinking, going back through your childhood stuff, like when you were saying that everyone has stories, we all have stories that we tell ourselves. But then once we tease it apart, you realize that there was probably you were blaming yourself, victim, you know, and then you realize that it was like society, like, it wasn't just you, it was your family and things that were happening. So I think that could just be very powerful.

Well, the other thing that was really incredible about it is that in the process of writing about it and writing about it so publicly, it forces you to find empathy for even the people who hurt you. And it forces you to, like, understand where they were coming from, too, and to extend the benefit of the doubt to everybody. I mean, not that, you know, I think there are certain kinds of trauma and certain kinds of abuse where you don't. You don't owe it to yourself to do that, or at least doing that is something you should wait on exploring, you know, but in my situation.

It had been a few years before, you know, between anything that happened in the book and where I was in the present and taking the time to really sympathize with people who were not good to me and understand where they were coming from in that was.

Like. I mean, it just. I feel like it shifted my entire consciousness. And the thing that was really incredible is that it's actually changed my relationship, my present day relationships with a lot of people.

Yeah, I'm sure it has. Right. Because the way you're changing your behavior down because you have a different understanding, you're not coming in with such animosity and tension with them.

But even like, even like the act of reading the book and then watching how it was received in public and then hearing feedback from other people has like legitimately changed my relationship with my dad, like in such a beautiful way.

That is amazing. So tell me more about that.

Like I. I was home last week actually, and he a. He's like. He's like playing with pronouns in a very incorrect way, but he's like playing with them for the first time.

Tell me. Let's talk about. The pronouns are stressful. I'm like, oh my God, am I gonna say he? And they like, let's talk about that.

Yeah, he's just. He's just sort of like, he. He was just sort of like, you know, sleepily, like we were like watching some like design show on Netflix and he was just like, so yeah, if I say, you know, they goes to the grocery store, I was like, no, you just conjugate it normally. Like they go to the grocery store and we like. And I just like use a little sample sentence. And then like, that was our little moment. But it was the first time he brought it up of his own volition. Like, wait, so what are these pronoun things? How do they work?

You know, what a moment. Yeah, that is a really powerful moment.

And it's not because, like, it's not.

Because the grandma's hiding your lipstick in the bathroom. And like now he's like, how do I do the they.

Well, and the bigger thing that he told me is he was, he was. He like a few of his colleagues have read the book now and he was telling me that they sort of. He was like, yeah, some of them have been telling me, like, oh, I'm kind of a hero of this thing. So like my dad actually now has a heroic narrative of pride and who.

Doesn'T want to come, Right?

Yeah. Around coming to terms with like having a gender non conforming child and learning to love and celebrate that child. And like, he's able to feel a sense of heroism in his own journey. And I don't think we would have gotten there if I didn't write this.

Wow. That is. That is. That makes so much sense. And that's really beautiful because it's probably very. As confusing for him and then for his friends to say, we all want to be recognized, you know, Parents.

Right. And for his friends, they're like, dude, you did such an incredible job. Right. Like, you're so incredible. And the way that you've come to understand and embrace your kid is so cool. You know, like, he's getting that.

Okay. I guess I am. I guess I get these gender pronouns. Right. I get it.

Right. And he's finally giving himself the pat on the back that he's deserved for a long time.

Yeah. Because it's. This is the bottom line of therapy, too. Yes. You're gonna understand that people have hurt you, your parents, your relatives, but they did the best they could with the tools that they were given. And so, you know, we probably felt some of that, that there was some animosity. But now it's. You're. You're young. Like I said, you're still in your 20s. You have a whole future life with him now. That could be really beautiful.

And it already is really beautiful. Like, we have such a good relationship, and it's gotten way stronger, like, through the process of writing this book and bringing it to everybody.

All right, guys, we're gonna take a quick break, and we come back more. Jacob Tobiah.

Okay, let's talk about the gender. Like. Yeah, like, why people. It still is. Can be confusing because you came out. The gender and sexual orientation is two things you've got to deal with. So let's talk about the pronouns. So you don't go by he.

Yeah, I go by they.

They.

And, you know, it's like, there's sort of, you know, there's like, a really complicated linguistic way to talk about it, and that way makes me bored and makes me want ghosts.

Okay, good. Let's not. I love that you make this all fun and never bo. I just.

I don't have time. I don't have time for, like, here's the thing. I have so much anxiety in my life. Like, the last thing I need is more anxiety in my life.

But this is anxiety to be like, I am not a he or she.

Right. But the number one rule for other people in my life is, like, actually, like, the number one rule is just, like, don't be too anxious about the pronouns. Like, just don't, don't be too anxious. Like, it's okay if you mess up. It's okay if you're, it's okay if you get it right sometimes. And then three weeks later you fuck it up again. And then two weeks later you get it right. And then, you know, five months later you fuck up again. Like, whatever. As long as you're trying, trying, it's totally fine. But the main thing is just don't be anxious about it. There's nothing to be anxious about. We're all trying. We are trying to honor people with imperfect tools. Language is an imperfect tool. And what we're trying to do and what trans and gender non conforming folks want is we want a slightly more accurate way to represent ourselves and be understood in the world. And the truth is when people are like, oh, Jacob, he goes to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, yes, it's only a word, totally. But it carries with it all of these expectations that have made my life really difficult and have limited my ability to feel happy in this world. And when people say, Jacob, Jacob got their jacket at the Goodwill and they had a really interesting conversation with the lady at the register about it, even just that small thing, having the ambiguity there, it's like going from being wrongfully categorized to just not being categorized, right? It's like someone telling like, I feel like I spent my whole life being like, hey, I think I'm yellow. And everyone's like, no, you're blue. And you're like, I think I'm yellow. And then they're like. And then people are just like, no, he, you're blue. And then you're like, but I'm not. That's not right. And it, and it just feels like getting closer to accuracy, right? And finding a way to really respect folks. Because the other thing too is like, here's the other thing I have a lot of trouble with. Let me just go in for. I don't want to be rude to like cisgender people or like, like, you know, people whose gender experience has been normal. But like, I remember in elementary school, yeah. How many people, like, how many just like straight dudes would have a nickname that they insisted on being called by the teacher, you know what I mean? Like, there would be Edward, you know, Edward Bartholomew. And he'd be like, I go by Eddie, right? And then the teacher would be like, edward. And then he'd be like, no, Eddie. And the teacher be like, sorry, Eddie. And then like, they would move on with the class, you know, and it would be like, and then Eddie would be called Eddie for the rest of the time. Right? And then, like, when trans people try to fix, like, to give ourselves like, a different name, everyone, like, freaks the fuck out. And I'm like, maybe we should just call it a nickname. And then everyone would be like, oh, okay, like Jacob. And I'm like, oh, my nickname's Sarah. And then teachers think, oh, okay, Sarah. You know? And then like, it'd be fine.

Exactly. But we make it so stressful because.

People act like, oh, my God, these needy trans people asking to be. Have to be called by the name that they prefer. And I'm like, you wanna know? Like, if you think that a trans person is needy for that, like, try talking to a kid whose name is Tyler who likes being called Ty.

Right, exactly.

You what? I mean, like, he's gonna freak out in fifth grade and he's gonna have a whole fit about it. And you're gonna get a call from his mom being like, he is called Ty. Ty is the name he uses. He is very upset right now. Can you please call him Ty? And the teacher will have to get in line.

No, I love it. This is just a good way to.

Explain it because it's just simple, easy shit. It's not that complicated. It's not that heavy, people.

No, it's not.

It can be heavy if you want to make it heavy.

But when he gets here, I mean, they comes here and then we're like, oh, God, are we gonna get like, he's gender chill. They are gender chill.

Yeah, they're gender chill.

They're gender ch. Yeah. And like, it's okay.

The correction is kind of fun for me because it's like queers. The reason it like, queers the whole thing because it's like, oh, God, language is so imperfect. How do we possibly capture the dynamic, like the dynamism of gender in like these stupid little words?

So you feel that there are other people that you meet. They're like, oh, I don't do that. Like, they're also gender non conforming, but they've decided not to use they.

Yeah, there are some people I know who are gender non conforming who are like, no, I still use he. And that's fine too.

Well, that's what we. How do we know? We just ask, how do you identify? How do you identify? What's your pronoun?

Yeah, you just gotta be like, what's your pronoun? What do you use?

What's your pronoun? That could be a fun game too.

Yeah, like I don't know, I just.

Thought it was like some kind of. I don't know. What's your pronoun?

Yeah, like, anytime I meet somebody and I'm not sure, I'll just be like, oh, hey. Like, hey, Emily. And then I'll be like, oh, yeah, Emily was saying that she. Oh, wait, Emily. What pronoun did you use?

Wait, is that what you.

Yeah, which one do you use?

Oh, she.

Okay, cool. No, Emily was saying that she has like a bunch of lube in the closet that I can look at later. I'm so excited to like, check it out.

Exactly. And just check with everyone and almost. Do you do that with me?

You see how easy that was?

It's so easy.

It's so fucking easy. Everyone's acting like we're asked. It's like everyone acts like I'm asking them to like, you know, like, build the perfect Jenga tower and like, like, whatever. And I'm like, it is not that fucking complicated. Do not, like, do not be so dramatic about it. Like, I will ask you things that are really dramatic and are really demanding. That is not one of them.

Exactly. No, you're right. I love the way it makes so much more sense that way. Right. So what else do you hope. And like, what I think about the kids in school, like, younger kids now, because it's so much more. What are the percentage of kids you think who think they are who are trans or in the. Born in the wrong body? Well, so however they identify.

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, like, I think the thing, like, I think there's. I think a. There are more people who are a lot. Like everyone is along a gender spectrum. Right. And that's something I'm excited about in terms of like the sort of next steps of this movement and sort of where it's going is that it's about everyone kind of learning to hold that trans being, that identifying as trans.

It's both an identity, but it can also be a type of experience. Right. That being gender non conforming is like, you can say, I am gender non conforming. I identify as gender non conforming. But also everyone in like, as an adjective can experience gender non conforming moments.

Right.

Like, everyone has had it times when they felt gender non conforming, even if they don't identify that way full time. Right, Right. And so it's like, I feel like I live.

Like, what about the energy, though? Like, I feel like energy is so much more important than like, I feel like I mostly, I a lot of times live in My masculine energy. And I'm not in my feminine as much.

That's why I'm like. It's why, like, I think you're so hot.

Right?

Yeah.

Right. Like, I think. But then. Right. Yes. See, I'm leading with that. So maybe I don't even. Yeah. Who knows? Maybe I'm with the wrong people. Who. I'm so open right now. But I'm trying to be more of my feminine because I would like to be more submissive too. So, you know. But that's the thing. I mean, I feel like energy.

Right. Like, I feel like I'm like, I feel like I'm, you know, in my. Like I feel like I'm pretty power butch, like in a lot of scenarios. And then, you know, there are other ones where you don't have to do that.

Right, Exactly.

But, yeah, I guess it's just about everyone being able to say, when are the times where my gender has felt like a box in which I did not fit? Cause everyone has had those moments.

Yeah, for sure. Being. Being. Being a. I mean. Yes.

When have you felt that way?

I felt so limited. And now it's like the whole me too thing. Like, I feel like I didn't even know that when people would. I mostly worked with men in this industry, like in entertainment and I used to work in politics. It was all men in charge. And it was always about. I had to be like, yeah, I'll go to dinner with you to talk about this business deal that you're gonna think that I'd wanna f. But we'll have dinner just so we can have this. And you'll see that I'm smart and you wanna work with me. Like all the shit I've had to do because someone wants to have sex with me. And that was a thing. But now I feel like that's gonna be changing now too for this generation, your generation that I don't think it's gonna happen as much where it was. That was the only way you would do business. Like, I got. I got most of my experiences working with men were. Many of them were inappropriate, like, in the sense of. I never. I felt like there was always an expectation that I was a woman or that I was really pretty, but I wasn't smart because I was a woman. I mean, I had to go through so much of this, like.

And the idea that pretty people can't be smart.

Yeah.

Or especially like high femme pretty people aren't smart.

Yeah. And I used to have to prove it.

I used to say, fucking garbage.

Yeah. Yeah, all that stuff. Like, I'm just. Yeah. Being a woman was. And then a woman who talks about sex, for example, like, oh, then she must be a slut. She's a prostitute. She's something.

I feel the same way, like, as, like, a femme who talks about fashion a lot. Everyone assumes that that means, like, they, like, look at me on Instagram and then they're surprised that I'm really smart.

Yes.

And I'm just like, oh, baby. Like, you really should look at a bright pink lip and know that there's more behind it.

Right, exactly.

You should have the wisdom in this day and age to know that, like, that level of audacity generally comes with some real good, like, you know, brains going on.

Exactly. You wouldn't be that. Yeah, right. It's the bravery. It's the bravery. You're right. So smart. They're thinking, oh, like, they just think they're going to talk to you about your jacket.

And also, like, high femme. I feel like high femme aesthetic is about. It's about a mastery of a specific art form. You know, like, it's about learning how to, like, do everything so impeccably and that knowledge, like, you have to be brilliant to pull that off.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Good point. So, yes, we all have these limitations of being my mentors, my mentorships, really, basically, because who have you been your mentors?

I mean, like, it was in my early career, it was all like. It was all like, just like powerful women who are my bosses or supervisors.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Like, I sort of learned early on that, like, that was the people I worked best with.

Yeah, well, men are tough to work for, too. I think they can be.

Can be.

Many, many can be.

I feel like these days I found a lot of men that I enjoy working with and it's like, yay. And it's also. I mean, that's the other thing that's nice about being this gender different is that it kind of. I feel like it's sort of a. Like, it sort of filters people out in the best way, you know? Like, everyone's like, oh, LA is so shallow. And I'm like, I've never experienced LA is shallow because, like, shitty people know not to fuck with me.

Exactly. This is what. Exactly. I always say that in, like, they're.

Like, oh, no, we can't. We can't pull anything on that bitch. And I'm like, absolutely not.

You can't.

Don't you.

Well, right.

I will literally end you in the New York Times. Like, don't fuck with me.

Right, Exactly. People where there are shallow people everywhere, people who have these. I haven't found that either people are shallow here. People might be, they just wouldn't be my people. I'm like, I don't spend time with people who suck or who are just about that. There's good people everywhere. You will find them. But LA's a probably a good place for you right now. Do you like la?

I love it. The sunshine really works well for me. I feel like I'm like a little plant and I just need to photosynthesize every day.

Exactly.

And it's really good for my mental health too, you know, like the sort of feeling of space. Space and like having access to cute plants. Because in la, even in like the most congested neighborhoods in la, there's still cute plants on like, you know, in everyone's yard pretty much, you know, like even in like. And like, not even necessarily just in like rich neighborhoods, like in most LA neighborhoods, there's still like some kind of cute little succulents around.

It's true.

Whereas like in New York. That's not true.

No, it's not true. And everyone's concerned. I was just there. Everyone's concerned about the weather and I'm so sorry it's raining. And I realized that moving to la, you literally, that's like one piece of the pie we don't have to worry about here.

It's so nice.

I know.

Until. Until we have to worry about it not raining. But like, I don't even care about.

The rain here because you know it's gonna be Sunday again. It makes me happy. Let's talk about parents. Like what? Like, because you talk about hitting puberty, how that affected you growing up. I think a lot of parents are going through this right now. I mean, are kind of not confused whether their kids are coming out as gay or bisexual or whatever it is. So can you talk about your experience you wrote a lot about in the book, or what we should do advice for parents now?

Yeah, the, the thing I say most to parents because what.

I feel like, what happens when parents have a gender non conforming kid or just a kid who's different in any way? They're like, oh gosh, what do I do with this? You know, like, what do I do to help my child? And the irony is that the answer is really simple, but the consequences of the answer are deep.

Right?

Right. The answer is just you let your child lead.

Right?

Right. Like your kid, like kids know their gender, you know, What I mean, like, kids have a very innate, like, sort of sense of who they are in the moment and it may change time, but, like, they know what they want to explore, they know what they want to play with. They know what, like, fabrics call to them and what clothing calls to them. And they know how they want to express themselves or at least what they're interested in trying out. And so the best thing that parents can do to raise gender affirmed, like healthy children who don't have a lot of gender shame, who feel good and are kind towards people across the gender spectrum is just like, let them lead, you know, and be like, you can wear what you would like, you can.

Wear a dress for Halloween, whatever your early experience is. Right. But then the consequences, though are parents and shaming and teachers and religious institutions.

Of course. So then that's what I mean is like letting your child lead. It's a really simple answer, but then living with it is really hard.

Right.

But what I would say is that parents have a lot of anxiety around, like.

If I affirm my kid, this is great candy. I hope they can hear it in the recording. It's like we're recording in Seattle or something.

I love it. Exactly. Oh, my God, I love it. I hope there's like thunder and lightning.

But it's like, you know, there's. I mean, I went through this a lot with my mom and I think my mom really struggled with this when I was younger is she was like, well, I want to affirm my kid because there's nothing wrong with my child, you know, wanting to wear cute little dresses. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But then when I affirm my kid, I set them up for bullying and harassment and all this other stuff.

And bullying's huge.

Yeah. And I guess what I would say is like, the world is going to have its way with gender non conforming people, at least until we build a more empathetic world. The world is going to have its way with gender non conforming kids, no matter what. And the only thing worse than, you know, facing bullying outside of your home is also facing bullying inside of your home. And even if it's like, even if it's just sort of trying to subtly steer your kid in a different direction, like, kids pick up on that. And what it tells them is like, there isn't even a safe space here for you to be who you are. And I think that kids also are really are actually better at understanding complexity than we give them credit for. And that's, you know, that's the joke about so many things, right? Like the idea that you can't talk to children about like about sex, right? And it's like, no, you can say really simple things to kids. Like, yeah, sometimes touching can feel good, but if touching feels bad.

You should say no and tell somebody.

Exactly.

Right? Like instead of just saying no, never touch anyone. Right?

That's what we're doing. We gotta meet kids when they're asking younger, younger ages now. And you gotta talk, you gotta answer it. You can't say, oh, wait till you're older.

Right. You can just be like, sometimes people kiss, you know, and like, if you're thinking about kissing anybody, let's talk.

Right?

You know?

Exactly.

Oh, like, you know, and. But it's like the, you know, the thing of, like if you say that all touch is bad, then people can't. If you don't acknowledge that there's such a thing as good touch, then you can't. Like, then people don't feel safe and to name when they're being abused.

Exactly.

You know, like you set people up. And I think the same. It's like people think it's so complicated to explain that to kids. And it's not.

It's really not.

It's really easy actually, because kids learn what you can, they can learn what you teach them. Kids learn so fucking much every single day. And kids are so smart.

They're so smart. And kids come to you, people ask you questions like, what are the questions that you. Like, what are the questions that you're tired of getting asked?

I don't know if there are many questions I'm tired of getting asked. Oh, I think the one that, the one that I get tired of, it's like, oh, so when did you come here out. Because people want like one story and I'm like literally read the book.

Exactly a.

Like there is not one story, right. Coming out is never one story. And like what you want is a monologue. And I'm not going to give you a one person show for free. If you want that, you have to pay a lot of money.

Exactly.

You know, there's a development process. You need to get me a stage. We have to rent a theater, right? Like there's a whole apparatus theater, right?

You should do it. Rent a theater.

I want to, I want to do a stage show. It's like on my book tour.

I mean, you've been a bunch of different cities. It was in March, right? April.

It was March. Yeah, yeah. I went to like 11. 11 cities. It was Bonkers Yeah.

Okay, so. But what I like that you talk about coming out of your shell.

Yeah.

Coming out of the closet.

Yeah. Because that's the thing. That's why I have so much trouble, is there, with the idea of the closet metaphor. There's this idea that, like, you come out once and then you're done. And literally no queer person has ever had that experience in the entire world. No transformation.

That's it.

Yeah, I'm done. I'm finished. You know, it's like, no, girl. Like, you have to come out over and over and over again. And the reality is that you carry your shell on your back like a snail. Right. And anytime you feel threatened, you reserve the right to go back into it. And that's the other thing I don't like about this idea of the closet is that we don't have, like, there's not an origin story around how queer and trans people got in that closet. You know, people are just like, oh, you were in the closet. As if it's natural, as if you were born there. And I'm like, no, you're literally chased in there by, like, an axe murderer of heterosexism.

Exactly.

Do you know what I mean? Like, by a heterosexual. It's like cisgender culture that says, like, you must not wear dresses if you are a boy and you must like girls, and if you don't, you're wrong and bad. And you're chased in there by an axe murderer when you're three years old. And then you, like, have to live in that closet with Jack Nicholson outside the door.

Exactly.

You know, and, like, you don't come out and then just be like, and I'm here, and then it's a glitter cannon explode. Like, you come out and then you have to fucking fight Jack Nicholson or, like, run away from him or, like, kill him or whatever in order to, like, actually, like, live in the damn house. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just like. I need a more exciting metaphor, and one that is that actually centers, like, the humanity and experience of queer and trans people. And for me, it's like, rather than trying to reclaim this idea of the closet, because I just feel like it's too far gone. Because I'm like, I love closets also, right? Like, I don't ever want to come out of my closet. If I could live in my closet, I would. Like, can my whole house be my closet?

That's what I want, right?

Like, what are living rooms? Can I just have couches that are between racks of clothes? Like, I would be in heaven. So, like, why. Why do closets have such a bad rep?

You know?

Like, they're beautiful space. Exactly. Anyway. But I feel like, for me, this metaphor of snails in their shells is so much better because what it says is, like, if a snail recoils into its shell, no one says, oh, you aren't courageous. People are just like, oh, you got threatened by something. You got spooked, Right? So it's okay that you're in your shell. You got spooked. Whenever you feel safe, come up, come back out.

It's still loving, right?

It's a loving metaphor, and it allows the humanity of queer and trans people to shine, and it allows us to not be blamed when we protect ourselves. You hide yourself when you're threatened, and that's a very natural human response. And you're not being dishonest. You're not being deceitful. You're only protecting yourself as best you know how. And maybe you got spooked by something you didn't need to get spooked by. But also, like, we're just soft little snails. It makes sense that sometimes we're spooked. Like, every human is a soft little snail. We're very soft creatures, emotionally.

I just. I just want to hug everyone in their shells. Like, I just have so much compassion.

And also, like, snails are really cute.

They are cute. Okay. God, you have to go. Okay.

And gay.

I know.

Snails are really gay.

I love snail.

They leave glitter everywhere.

They do.

They have their slimy glitter trails all over your damn garden. And you're like, oh, that queen was here.

Are they glitter? They leave glitter.

Well, they're not like, real.

Not like glitter.

They're like, shiny little, like, you know, snail trails. Like, they leave a little. Like a little slimy, shiny glitter.

I want one now. I remember them. And I had. I had them in a cage. Oh, sorry. As a kid. Well, you know, I'm missing, like, a.

Well, I think some snails are probably okay being like. And as long as you're feeding them.

I feel bad that I put them in a cage.

I don't know. I feel like.

Anyway, I understand. I like the whole. I like the whole thing. So what would you tell people who are listening to this? Or they have kids or relatives or anything that are trying to figure out their sexual identity along with their gender identity? I mean, what resources? What could they do? What do they say? We talked a little about what they could say, but, like, it's such a whole new world, right? Which I love. Well.

And again, the advice is really simple. Following up with it can be really difficult. But I just. We can never underestimate the value and the power of the question. What do you need? What can I do for you? Is there anything I can do for you? Because if someone comes out to you, sometimes they don't need you to do anything. Sometimes they're like, no, I'm still. This is still a me thing. And I'm figuring it out and I'm like, why am I. I want to take it slow, but I'll let you know when I need support or help. But I think it's just sort of being like, hey, I'm here if you need anything. And you can naming with specificity a few of what those things might be. Right? Like if you want to talk about how you're feeling, if you want to go shopping together or explore something or put on something that you're not comfortable with. If you need help going out in public dressed in a different way for the first time, or you want someone to be your cheerleader while you do that, I'm here for you. You know, if you need help, like buying your first tube of lipstick because you're a little scared to go in the makeup aisle because you don't want know how to deal with people looking at you, I'm here for you. Then, you know, if you just want to like have a 12 hour conversation about all your feelings, I'm here for you. If you need someone to talk to mom and dad for you, like, I'm here for you. If you need someone to like go into your school, like into, into the office at your school and yell at your principal and tell him to shut the fuck up and step the fuck back or you're gonna call the aclu. I will do that. Right? Like I will do anything you need need in terms of support, because I'm not Like, the hardest thing when you're trying to figure out who you are is the uncertainty makes it difficult to stand up for yourself. You know, when you're still not quite certain about who you are in this world, it's really hard to stand up for what you need. And sometimes having someone else who can like, stand up for you and use the fact that they're not, they're like, they're not the trans person going through it necessarily, but they're an ally who, who has all the power that kind of being an ally comes with that can mean the world.

That's true. And kids need that in so many different areas of their lives.

And Adults, you know, even adults figuring shit out, just being like, need me to talk to your boss. Need me to like, you know, need me to, you know, to like suggest something. And you can do this for co workers, you can do this for friends, but it's just like ask people what they need.

Right? Ask them before you start to give advice too.

Right?

That's a universal.

Yeah. And like. Cause I mean, someone was talking to me the other day.

I have a problem with that about over advised for they don't ask me for advice and start giving them advice.

Well, it's because you're like a power fellow. I don't, you know, it comes with the territory. I do that too. And I have to like watch myself like, nope, do not be prescriptive.

Yeah, yeah.

People like to, you know, go on their journey in their own time. But that was like one of my friends was talking to me, he was like, yeah, my, you know, my sister is like bi and she's having a lot of trouble and you know, she's not out to like our dad, but she's out to everyone else in the family and she doesn't quite know how to feel good with herself. And I just can tell that she still has a lot of shame about this. What do I do? And I was like, well, solving her shame is a, like, shame is a multi year problem. It's not something that you as her brother can totally solve. And taking it upon yourself to solve it can actually feel like a violation of her boundaries.

Which is so true and so complex to understand when we're fixers.

Right? So it's like sometimes the best thing you can do is be like, if you need anything, I'm here, here. I'm glad that you're on this journey. And like I'm gonna, I'm gonna like not try and get in the way of what you need to do, but just let me know if you need help. And let's check in every now and then.

Right. And then, and then check in more than once too. Cause people think they say things, but you can keep checking in with someone. It's kind of like my friend just had a death in a friend. Like a lot of my friends, it's the same thing. Your friends need you, but they might not be ready yet.

Yeah. Whenever anyone's going through something, it's like you gotta just be like, hey, I know you need some space to work this out, but like, are there any practical, easy things I can do? Right? Like, do you need help with grocery shopping? Is your Mental health. Okay. Are you showering and eating regularly? Like the basics? Like, are you covered on the basics? Do you need help strategizing those? Because sometimes when you're going through something, those things become difficult.

Do you need more culture, resources? Can I buy you some cute shit and send it your way? Can I buy you a cute book? Is there anything you've been thinking about reading? There's a million questions you can ask that are non invasive, where you're not saying, I'm gonna solve your problem for you, but you're saying, hey, let me be a resource. And helping in whatever way feels good.

Right. Those are all great. Those are all very great specific ways you can help people.

Can I help pay for a therapy session?

Exactly.

Would it help? Is the financial burden of finding therapy? Are you just scared to pay that 60 or 100 or whatever dollars you have to pay? If me paying that would help you get started, I'm down to pay it. Can I help find a therapist? Do you need help finding people? I can get some referrals from friends, whatever. There's a million tactical things you can do. Right.

Because that's where we often get stuck. Which speaking from someone who gets stuck with details, I get it.

Yes.

And it's so easy to help others sometimes and not do those things for ourselves.

Exactly. But like, being a strategy partner on the details can be really, really helpful.

Yeah, exactly. Wow. I love the way you put it. I love the way you put everything. Everyone has to check out your book and I have five questions I have to ask. I ask every guest, but this is a coming of gender story. Jacob Tobiah. Thank you. Everyone should check. I mean, I already have like three. Literally. I'm ordering on Amazon three copies for parents, friends of mine that they need this for them. And I was telling you, I was just in Michigan and I'm like, this is exactly what I'm. And it's such a great roadmap of anyone who wants to understand what's really happening. I think this is the future and it's really gonna help so many people. So thank you for writing this book and for being here.

Well, thank you for reading it and for having me.

Yes, of course. I love it. I was so happy when I got your text and then I saw you and you're amazing and your glitter. Okay, five questions. Ready?

Yes.

Something you would tell your younger self about relationships.

I would say that learning to just send that text and not overthink it is the best gift you'll ever give yourself.

Biggest turn on.

When.

When someone, like, touches like your knee for the first time. When you're like on a date and, like, it's going well and they just sort of like put their hand on your knee and like. And you're just like. And like electricity goes through your entire body.

Oh, my God. That makes me go.

That's like the G rated one. I guess. I don't know what the R1 is because that's. It's like.

How do you choose biggest turnoff?

Biggest turnoff is when someone.

When people won't own up to their trauma.

Yeah.

When people won't come to the table and be like, yeah, I'm fucked up too.

Same. Not. We're going. This is five quick questions. But yes, people are like, everything's perfect. Everything's perfect. Nothing's perfect. We all just.

Yeah. Don't pretend you have your shit together. No one does. Like, stop that.

Exactly. Let's fuck. I'll fuck it out of you. I'm gonna fuck the trauma right out of you. What's the most important personality trait in another person?

It's a simple one, but it's a good un. Empathy.

Something you wear that makes you feel confident every time.

My grandma's earrings.

Aw. Is that what you're wearing?

No, these are like from an estate sale. So they are someone's grandmother's earrings, but they are not my grandmother's earrings.

Okay, got it. Do you go to state sales in LA all the time?

I haven't been to a bunch, but we should.

I love it.

You have to find the ones where there's like a bag of clip on earrings in a plastic Ziploc, like a sandwich bag. And it's just like $10. Take them all. Then you go, great. And then you take them all. And there will be at least five gems in there.

Yes. And all the scarves and the bags and the purses. I would do it with you since we're neighbors. Okay. Thank you so much for being here. We can find you at. Tell me the best place to find you.

Just on Instagram. Jacob Tobia. Twitter, Jacob tobiah and jacob tobia.com.

All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed the show and I love hearing from you on everything. Let me know what you think.

Think.

Which shows are you loving? Also, thanks for sharing this with your friends and you know, if it's helped you, it'll help others. Thanks to my amazing team, Ken, Kristen, Michelle, producer, Jamie and Michael. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwith emily.com.

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