Best of: Sex Drive, Love & Attachment w/ Dr. Helen Fisher

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Men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do. Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry as women. But men just fall faster because they're so visual. Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a bygone day.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. On today's best of episode, I'm joined by renowned biological anthropologist and author of Anatomy of Love and so many other great books, Dr. Helen Fisher. We discuss so many things in this episode that your brain just might explode. All the questions you might be having about relationships like is love at first sight possible? How our personality traits shape our attraction to others. And we're going to give you a personality test you can take so you can figure out which personalities you match with. We also talk about the way our Biology influences who we fall in love with, the stages of rejection, the right time to define a relationship. We talk about the brain systems that are actually responsible for different kinds of love. Dr. Fisher also shares studies of why you fall in love with one person rather than another. Do you ever think about that? Like, why am I attracted to these kind of people? We also talk about the best times to marry, why orgasms create connection, how you can put some space in your togetherness. We've all been spending a little bit too much time together, right? All good relationships need space. Also, why casual sex isn't really casual. All right, intentions with Emily for each episode, join me in setting an intention. What do you want to get out of this episode? I set one in every episode, and my intention simply was to get Dr. Helen Fisher here to break down love, attachment and sex. I can't wait to hear from you of what you think of this episode. And remember, if you want to ask me questions, call my Brand new hotline, 559-talk-SEX or 559-825-5739. Just leave me your questions or message me at sexwithemily.com askemily. Always include your name, your gender identity, location and age, and how you listen to the show. All right, everybody, enjoy this special episode.

Dr. Helen Fisher, Ph.D. is one of America's most prominent anthropologists and senior research fellow at the Kinsey Institute. She's conducted extensive research, written six books on the evolution and future of human sex, love, marriage, gender differences in the brain, and how your personality style shapes who you are. She's currently using her knowledge of brain chemistry to discuss the neuroscience of team building, business, leadership and innovation. I've been inspired by Helen Fisher for so many years. I remember when I was starting out doing my show a long time ago, I was listening to an interview with her on the radio and I was just stopped my car in the middle of the road and started taking notes. Well, I'm so excited she's joining us today. Welcome to the show, Dr. Helen Fisher. Can we just talk about to break down to my listeners like the three basics of love. I know you've talked about this for years and then we're going to build upon this, but the lust, romantic, attraction, attachment.

Yeah, I was. I was walking actually in. In a park in New York City several years ago, and it suddenly occurred to me, I wonder if we've evolved three distinctly different brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive. Second is feelings of intense romantic love. And the third is feelings of deep attachment and that all kinds of love, I mean, you know, is some combination of those three. Now, I'm not. You are not going to be in love with your mother. You just feel deeply attached to your mother. You're not going to want to have sex with your mother, et cetera, et cetera. So there's going to be all different kinds of combinations that we make. But I think that three basic brain systems evolved, and they evolved for different reasons. I think the sex drive evolved to get you out there looking for a whole range of partners. You can have sex with somebody you're not in love with. I think romantic love evolved to enable you to focus your mating energy on just one at a time and start the mating process. And I think there's feelings of deep attachment evolved to enable you to stick with this person at least long enough to raise the child together as a team. So these things do different jobs. We feel attachment to all kinds of people. What's interesting is when I looked into the brain, romantic love can be triggered instantly. It's like a brain system, like the fear system. You can be scared instantly, and you can boom. You can fall in love.

Like the love at first sight, right? But isn't it more lust at first sight?

I think it's often love at first sight. You know, I do all these studies with math.

Let's talk about all your studies.

And one of the questions was, do you believe in love at first sight? Not sex at first sight or lust at first sight, but love at first sight. And over 50% of both men and women said yes. And when I asked the question, has that ever happened to you? I think it's something like 40% of men had said yes. And a little. I think 29% of women or 30% of women had said yes. But you have to be ready for it. I mean, you know, as you grow up, you evolve what I call a love map. An unconscious list of what you're looking for in a partner. And then suddenly the time is right, you're ready to fall in love. And you see somebody who fits within that love map even somewhat. And they smile at you and they laugh with you or they crack a joke. And instantly you can trigger that brain circuit for romantic love and fall madly in love. Not just lust, but in love. And, you know, these three brain systems, a lot of people get them mixed up. They feel that lust comes first and then romantic love and then feelings of attachment. But these are brain systems. They can operate in any combination. I mean, you have some wonderful friend at school or at work. And it's just a nice attachment, and you feel deeply attached, and then suddenly you're free. They're free, and boom, you can feel romantic love. Then you can feel the sex drive. Or you can fall in love first, and then sudden. Once you fall in love with somebody, everything becomes sexual about them.

What if you get stuck though one of these phases? What if you're only, like, in the last phase? Like, aren't there people who can't move on or can't attach?

Right. I think that different times of life, we're looking for different kinds of things. I mean, I know a guy right now who just really wants to sleep around. That's what he wants to do. He just really wants. He does not want any kind of attachment. He had a long attachment to somebody, and he's done with that for the moment. Well, he'll probably get back to it. We'll see. And then there's some people, I call them romance junkies, you know, and they need that thrill, that dopamine high, the elation, the giddiness, the euphoria, the romance. And so as that begins to settle down a bit into a deep attachment, Then they'll feel claustrophobic and want to move on. And then there's people, I call them attachment junkies that can't leave a bad partnership because they're stuck. They have that sense of attachment, even if it's quite abusive. So actually, I think that all three of these brain systems can be perfectly wonderful, and all of them can be perfectly horrible. I mean, I think you can have a real sex addiction, a real romance addiction, or a real attachment addiction, but when they're working well and when you've found all three in the same person, that's a beautiful addiction.

Right? Exactly. How has this changed? Because this was huge research that you did. It's made a huge impact. And what do you say has been one of the biggest impacts it's had on the way people think about love and attachment? Or at least, what could people learn from this now? Like, how could they learn about themselves and the way they date and the way they love?

I think my recent research is probably the most important for that. It's on personality. It's nice to know about these three brain systems. It's nice to know what's happening to you, and it's nice to think a little bit clearly about it and stay away from things that don't work. I mean, I said to a man last night, I was at this gala, and he said, well, so and so and he broke up. And I said, well, stay broken up. She's not the right person for you. I've known their saga for several months and there's just too much drama, right. And they're both wonderful people, but they're not right for each other right now and maybe they never will be. So.

So your personal. I love your. We took the personality quiz.

Oh, you did? Oh, how wonderful. I bet you're just like me.

I don't know what.

I'm estrogen explorer. Yeah. Explorer, negotiator.

Yeah. Explorer. Negotiate. Absolutely, yes. And I, I knew without even just reading the dopamine, I'm like, yes, I am Dopamine.

Yeah.

I wanted to clarify this part. We're gonna get into the personality test that Helen Fisher created, but I wanted to explain it to you here so it all makes sense. So her personality quiz is essentially talks about the way you express four broad styles of thinking and behaving. And each one of these behaviors is associated with our four basic brain dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen system. So she took those systems and there are four personality types. The explorer, the builder, the director, and the negotiator. And we're a combination of all of these four traits, but we express some more than others. So when you take this quiz, you might score equally on two, or sometimes three, but we tend to, you know, favor one or two. But to break it down for you. So explorers have more of the traits linked with the dopamine system. They're curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, daring, risk taking builders express more of the traits linked with serotonin system. They're more traditional, conventional, cautious, but not scared. They observe social norms, they follow the rules, they respect authority, they like making plans and schedules. Then we have the directors, and directors have more traits linked with testosterone. These people tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, skeptical, tough minded, emotionally contained. Then we have the negotiators. They have more of the traits in the estrogen system, holistic, contextual, long term, and imaginative thinkers. They're good at reading, postures, gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice. So you can take the quiz yourself. I just wanted to explain it to you a little bit here before we get in deeper into the test. And the personality types, match.com came to.

Me and said, why do you fall in love with one person rather than another? And I said, I don't know. I mean, nobody knows. I mean, we do tend to fall in love with people from the same socioeconomic background, same general level of intelligence, same general level of good looks, educational Level, same religious and social and economic goals, reproductive goals, but you can walk into a room and everybody's from your background. And same level of intelligence and good looks and educate. And you don't fall in love with.

All of them all the time.

So. But I began to think to myself, okay, maybe basic chemistry draws you naturally towards one person rather than another. I mean, people will say, well, we have chemistry or we don't have to chemistry.

That's always what chemistry means.

So what does that mean?

What does it mean? Alan Fisher.

Emily is so cute.

Well, so anyway, what I did is I went through the last 40 years of biological literature looking for any trait at all linked with any biological system. And there's a lot of systems in the brain, but most of them keep the eyes blinking or the heart beating. They're not linked with personality traits, but these four are the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen systems. So I listed the traits of each one of these basic brain systems and made a questionnaire for match to see to what degree you express the traits in the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and estrogen system. Over 14 million people have now taken that questionnaire in 40 countries.

And 14 million is quite.

People love questionnaires. They really do. They love questionnaires.

Cosmo in the day, right? We all love the quizzes, but now.

And because this one is the only, actually the only one on earth that is built on basic brain circuitry. No, no. I mean, I know that's bragging, but the bottom line is.

Oh no, you brag. Alan Fisher doesn't brag enough. Jesus.

Thank you. Thank you.

Really.

So anyway, so here are the four traits that are linked with each of these systems. And then I was able to watch on match in all these countries who's naturally drawn to home. And that's where I had suddenly slipped into mother nature's kitchen and begun to figure out why him? Why her? Why you fall in love with one person rather than another. But anyway, no, why him?

Why hurt? Which is also, if you guys are interested in this at all and you want more, it is your book. Why him? Why heart?

Yeah. And the questionnaire is in that. The questionnaire, yeah, in much more detail and how to get along with these people. But anyway, people who are very expressive of the dopamine system, I call explorers. Emily, you're one. I'm one. Risk taking, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic, mentally flexible and idea generation. These are the people who come up with out of the box ideas and they're drawn to People like themselves, explorers want explorers. They want somebody who's gonna leap off the couch and I don't know, go swimming in Central park or go racing over to Lincoln center at the, you know, 10 minutes before something's gonna start and just go in and plop down whatever. They wanna, you know, take their backpack and go off to Laos and look in the woods or whatever. Anyway, the bottom line is the high serotonin. I call these people builders. They like the familiar. They're traditional, conventional, they follow the rules, they respect authority, they think concretely instead of theoretically. They like schedules and plans. They tend to be quite social and they tend to be religious. Religiosity is actually in the serotonin system. And these people are drawn to people like themselves. Traditional goes for different.

That makes sense.

And a good example is Mike Pence or Mitt Romney. I mean they've married people who are very traditional like themselves. They follow the rules, they're very structured, they're concentrated concrete thinkers. They're principled.

Like do you think you do follow the rules? Like do you like never, never.

I mean I follow the rules if it makes sense to me, but that's about it. I'm good on the road. I follow the rules of the road.

Mostly.

I love the seat belts.

Oh Emily, you're great and, but anyway, so that type goes for that type. Highest testosterone goes for high estrogen and vice versa. So people who are very high testosterone tend to be analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough minded, skeptical, good at what we call rule based systems. Everything from engineering to computers to math to mechanics. Steve Jobs was a good example. I'm sure Bill Gates is Hillary Clinton. I heard Hillary Clinton is, I think she's high testosterone. She was actually interested in going into the Marines. I mean she's tough minded, that girl and she married a high estrogen.

That's what's amazing. But when I heard you say that, that Bill Clinton was probably high estrogen.

Yeah. Well, these people are verbally skill people's skills. Whole world knows he can't stop. Negotiators and directors, directors at the high testosterone and the negotiators of the high estrogen and negotiators. Yeah, they think broadly, contextually and of course that's you because the person constantly interviewing people, constantly thinking outside the box, constantly looking for other ways of seeing a particular issue is going to be high estrogen person. Verbally skilled people skills can deal with ambiguity.

Yes.

Very good. Nurturing, trusting, diplomatic generally and mentally flexible. So they go for their opposite.

So we're explorers Right. But you said we go. Would we only date other explorers, though? Because to me, who's gonna pay the, you know, bill? Who's gonna make sure we get place on time? You know, that's why I think maybe I've been more attracted to testosterone. Are the directors.

Well, the bottom line is. We are. We are. We are. Yeah, we are. All for. I mean, the problem with all these other personality questionnaires is that they put you in one bucket or another. These are brain systems. They're not buckets. So, for example, my boyfriend and I are both high dopamine. That works fine. I am high estrogen, and he is high testosterone, so that works fine, too. He is higher serotonin, and in this case, I mean, he's not that high, or I wouldn't have a hard time at it. Right, right, right. But he's higher than I am. And so he plans everything. And it's sort of beautiful because I. I mean, yesterday we were driving, you know, through Pennsylvania, and, man, he knew where we were going. Going. He knew how long it was gonna take to get there. He got our hotel room. You know, we got to the hotel too late, and we were looking forward to go to that restaurant. He immediately got on his phone and found another really nice place to go. All of that. If it had been you and I, we would have gotten out the door.

No, exactly.

This is why we had a good time, too. It would have been fun.

We would have found someone that would invite us over for dinner, maybe, whatever.

But.

But this is the thing with my ex. I was saying this, that we. He's great guy, but I'm like, no one planned anything. Like, I'm not a planner and that I felt kind of like it just always. It was a thing. So I was like, how do I figure this out now? Ahead of time? I'd never been in that situation before because he kept saying, why aren't you planning stuff? I'm like, oh, in all my life, I haven't been in this situation because I must have always been attracted to the person who plans.

Right.

So anyway. But so using this quiz, and he.

Must have always been with somebody who plans.

I guess so.

Because the thing is, if I'm gonna couch. Oh, wow.

Well, not a lot. I mean, he wanted to play video games. There was many things that didn't work. But, yeah, I love him. Jamie's always like, really? With the boyfriend, but it's just interesting to learn.

Yeah, but what's really interesting is. And now, for example, he and I were going to the movies. This was months ago. And I said to him, I said, sweetheart, do you have any water in your backpack? And he said, yeah, I do. And I said, oh, great. We can drink it in the movie house. He said, no, we can't. You can't bring food or drink into a movie house. You gotta buy it at the concession stand.

Oh, God, the serotonin, right?

Serotonin. He had a moment of serotonin, but.

You'Re like, no, we just put in the backpack.

And I said, wow. But what's beautiful is, you know, I mean, I. Modern psychology is very good. It's all very good. But the bottom line is we are blaming everything these days on our mother and our childhood. Some of who we are is just biological. He wasn't stubborn about that water because of the way he grew up. It's who he is. It's who he was born, it's who he's gonna be. And under those circumstances, you just have to do a workaround. You don't have to go to a psychiatrist's office for 15 years to wonder why he can't bring water into a moving house. It's just who he is. And then I said, oh, okay. We buy the water at the, you know, at the concession stand. So the bottom line is, I mean, psychology has added a great deal about who we are and how to get along and et cetera. And it's all good. I mean, John got. Is a brilliant man, you know, about. Don't show contempt. Don't threaten divorce. Listen actively. All very good. But the bottom line is get to know who the person also is biologically, and you can make a good relationship. Now, for example, my man, he has these crazy, wonderful ideas. I love them, you know?

Right.

And somebody else would be very impatient with all this, but it works perfectly for me. And it's who he is. He's not gonna change.

Right? People don't change either.

No, they don't. They can. We can adapt if they want to, but, you know, could I ever make you uncurious? I don't think so. Could I ever make you. I mean, if you and I went to Laos together, I mean, we'd plan a little bit, we'd figure out where we were staying, but we wouldn't have a plan for what we're gonna do every day for three weeks, we would not do that.

We'd be anxious that I'm already cancel day three. But then. Exactly.

We'd bring a little guidebook and we'd get, you know, at breakfast, we'd figure out what we were doing.

We get travel together. I feel like we need to do something together. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, I asked Dr. Helen Fisher about ATT Styles and what they mean for our relationships.

Can we go into, like, attachment styles a little bit? Because isn't it important to kind of know why you attach or anxious avoidant and things about that? I've just learned. I'm constantly, like, learning more about that, too.

So am I. I'm really learning about that personally.

You're four years old, and then how do you know if your mom wasn't looking into your eyes like you're everything to her? What if she kept leaving the room and then you feel not loved or if you had abuse or.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, all of that's very worthwhile, and there's no question about it. What I'm trying to do is add the second half of the puzzle. A huge number of other people are adding that half of the puzzle. Your childhood, the traumas, who you are, how you expect the world to behave around you, what you're looking for in a partner, all of that is, I think, extremely valuable. But. But there's the second half of this puzzle, which is who you're built to be. And a good 40 to 60% of who you are does come out of your biology. Some people are gonna. Are. They're homebodies. They're going to keep being homebodies unless they don't want to be a homebody, and then they marry somebody who wants to go out all the time. And there may be some friction in it, but, I mean, I think you just have to know not only who you are, but who your partner and your friends are. Now, for example, I've got a friend, a girlfriend, who's very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen. So I just don't do conflict. I just. I'm not in. I just don't do conflict. I can't cope with it. I just don't do it. So one day recently, I met her for lunch, and I walked in and she said, helen, where'd you get that purse? And I said, well, I bought it in the street. And she said, it looks. It. It looks cheap.

I have friends like that.

And I said, marie.

And she said, helen, I'm just trying to be honest with you. I'm trying to be helpful. But the high estrogen type takes it as an attack.

Yeah. Yes.

And so when you understand that she's trying to be I mean, I'm glad she said that.

Right.

And one of the problems with very high testosterone is that I don't fight back, you know? And then one time I did fight back, and I said, you know, and when I fight back, it's perfectly fine with the high testosterone. They're used to that, right. But then I go home and I say, why did I say that? Oh, I feel like such a heel. Right? Oh, I felt so aggressive, you know, and so, I mean, it's hard to not. It's hard to be somebody that you really are not.

No, it's not.

We can act out of character. It's just tiring. And in my case, it can just be, you know, very socially anxious, basically. Socially anxious.

Same. It's so funny. I am totally conflict avoidant and I guess. And I love what you're saying. Cause, I mean, a whole, like 16 light bulbs went off. Cause in a way, it's like, I have friends like that too. And I kind of like it where it's like, no, Emily, you're not. Where my friend came over, she's like, she must be high testosterone. She cleaned out my whole closet. She was helping me. Cause I was too much stuff and clutter. She's like, this is cheap. You can't wear it again. And I was like, great. It wasn't. Didn't make me upset because I'm trying to get rid of stuff. But she's so. And I appreciate her directness. And she literally was like, no, these are done. These are done. Get this rid of this. And we need people like that in our lives. But it's just funny thinking about the people we're attracted to, even as friends. But, yeah, conflict. I've been like that forever.

It would be hard to travel with somebody like that for me.

Oh, yes.

You know.

No, but you're right. I know what you're saying.

As long as you can appreciate her and she can appreciate you. Does she appreciate your.

She does.

Well, that's important because I've got friends who just. They just think I'm weak because I'm sweet and I'm pleasant and I'm accommodating and I'm trying to level the playing field, and they take that as weakness.

Do they tell you. But when you're.

No, they treat me that way, you know?

Then don't you feel like that you don't want to be around those friends?

Yeah, it's not long because it's too tiring.

It is exhausting. The ones who are just draining, the ones that are drained. I think you learn this as you get older, you start to shed and, well, women can't even deal anymore if they're not. If it's conflict.

When you.

Every time you call me, I'm anxious. I see the phone call. It's going to be stressful. No.

Yeah. Well, I mean, women hold on to their friends, particularly the high estrogen type.

Right.

They're going to hold on to their, you know, because they feel obliged. And I think women. Yeah, I think. I think women do an awful lot of things that they don't feel like doing.

Right.

Well, it's true.

But I guess as you learn that, you don't have to do them anymore. But I guess if it's part of who you are, I would.

I don't know. I haven't learned.

No, I'll always be a good friend. And I'm a pleaser, too, I guess. You're making me feel like it's okay. I'm a pleaser.

Yeah, me too. Horrible pleaser. Horrible. Please. Like, over, please.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. My friend finally said to me last week, she said, thank you. You just said, thank you so much. I'm like, I'm so appreciative, though. She goes, but after a while, it's diminishing returns. Like. Like, you could just say thank you once.

Oh, that's interesting.

I was like, see, because if you.

Said thank you all the time with me, I'd get it right?

I'm like, oh, my God. Literally, I'm so grateful now to be seeking her out. I mean, I mean it, though.

Yeah, I know. Same with me.

So who.

I mean, if it was you and me, it was so funny. I was doing this years ago. I was doing this photography thing with the photographer, and it was a woman and it was me, and we would get out of sync, so I would be moving when she was clicking, and I would say, oh, I'm sorry. And she'd say, oh, I'm sorry. And I'd say, oh, I'm sorry. She said, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. And finally the guy who was her crew said, why are the two of you constantly so sorry? And I just said, we get it, we get it. Just don't bother us.

We're speaking each other's language, right? Okay, let's talk about millennials and the. They get such a bad rap, right? But it's such a bad rap.

And it is so wrong.

And the whole thing, it is so wrong.

It is so wrong. I mean, first of all these dating apps is just new technology. You have to learn how to use it. The only real algorithm is your own brain. You gotta get out and meet the person. And these dating apps, they're not, you know, as I say this at Match, and they know it, and everybody else does, too. These are not dating sites. They're not dating apps. They're introducing apps, they're introducing site. And what they are is they just give you an awful lot of people and then you have to sift through it. The problem is the human brain is not built until we even cope with so many choices. The brain has a sweet spot, apparently, between five and nine alternatives. And after that, you don't choose any. You just don't choose any. And I hear about these people who, you know, had 30 dates in 30 days. No wonder. I mean, they're just in a complete dither. They're not gonna meet anybody. And so I basically ended up saying, you know, I mean, this. You just have to learn how to use this new system.

Number one, after you've met nine people, stop and get to know at least one of those people more. Because all the data show that the more you get to know somebody, the more you like them and the more you think that they are like you. So stop.

Effort for men and for women.

Oh, yes, definitely for men and for women. Men fall in love faster than women do. Men fall in love more often than women do. Men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. It's exactly the same brain circuitry in men as women, but men just fall faster because they're so visual. Yeah, so. So there's two things. A stop after you've met nine people and get to know one of them better. And second, think of reasons to say yes. The brain is built to say no. We've got this huge brain region in the behind your forehead in a brain region linked with what we call negativity bias. The brain is built to think of the negative. For example, let's say we all go to a party and everybody says, oh, Emily, you look so great, and this and that. And then somebody says, emily, have you lost too much weight? What are you gonna remember? Just that.

Yeah. Like, why is she talking about my weight? Yeah, I'm too skinny. Right.

So, you know, that's just because.

For survival techniques.

Absolutely. I mean, for millions of years, it was adaptive to remember who did not like you.

Right, right.

And it's good to know who you do, who does like you. But if you forget who doesn't like you, you could be dead. So we remember the negative. And so when you go out with somebod the first date, think of reasons to say yes. You know, overlook the fact that he's got brown shoes instead of black shoes, that he's wearing a T shirt instead of a tie, whatever. I mean, if it's really obvious, then you gotta get rid of it.

Absolutely. Right. We're so picky. When people say they're so picky, they're so picky. There's a picky, then you're not gonna see you anywhere.

Yeah, and women are pickier than men are for good Darwinian evolutionary reasons. I mean, you know, we're gonna bear that baby, and that's gonna be dangerous.

Baby comes out in black shoes and we're in trouble. But what about this whole thing about men decide who they're gonna sleep with in 42 minutes or less or on.

A date, or women can decide within three minutes? Absolutely.

But what if we decided that. But you're saying even then go out with them for a second time, even if we're not sure or we don't think we would some.

If it's a maybe go out again? Absolutely.

Okay, that's great.

And one thing that's interesting about, you know, in one study I did with match, 36% of singles had had sex with somebody before the first date. And older people get all pushed out of shape about that and they think, oh, wow, you know, because in my day, because I'm older, you know, we had the first date long before you kiss somebody. These days, they start out with just friends, they're just friends, and then they move into friends with benefits. You learn a lot between the sheets. You get to know somebody. Then after a period of time, you go and tell friends and family, and then you have the official first date.

Right.

And so people say, oh, they're not having a first date early on. No, no, they're not. They're being more careful with the first date. And these days, a first date is expensive. I mean, in my day, they pick me up after dinner and we played miniature golf or went parking or whatever. But these days it can cost you $200 if you're in LA or in New York. So you really want to know who you're spending your money and your time on. What we're really seeing is the extension of what I call the pre commitment stage, this long period of getting to know somebody before you tie the knot, which I think makes sense. I think that makes great sense. In Fact, I did a study of 11 married people, and I said to them, one of the questions was, would you remarry the person you're currently married to? And 81% said yes. And I think that the. Well, I've got three pieces of very solid data that the later you marry, the more likely you are to stay married. So what millennials are doing is they're getting their career in order, they're saving their money, they're sleeping around. People sleep around. They're learning a whole lot about themselves, but they're also learning in this pre commitment stage, how to get rid of the ones they don't want. They're learning more about their own sexuality, about who they want, what kind of sense of humor, where they want to go, all kinds of things they're learning about before they wed. And I honestly think that this long period of pre commitment and the opportunity to meet people on the Internet so you don't have to make foolish choices when you're 19. You can make a good choice when you're 29.

Yeah, I think that's.

And have a whole lot of years to get to. To know yourself and other people. And then. So, I mean, you know, people do tend to divorce. I mean, I'm, as an anthropologist in hunting and gathering societies, they did tend to have two or three husbands during the course of their lives. So there's nothing new about divorce.

Right.

But I do think that the later we marry. Well, all the data show that the later we marry, the more likely we.

Are to remain married because we don't know ourselves in our time. I always say, wait till you're 30. Like, just kind of what? I mean, if you can't wait till you're 30 because you got to figure out who you are. We don't really. Not even really. You haven't made the decisions yet. You haven't been out there to date as many people to understand what might be. Exactly Right.

And I love the fact that people are living together before they wed. You know, I mean, you, you get, you learn a lot with that, too. And that brings me to lat.

Okay. Oh, circle back. Lat? What is lat?

So it means living apart together. I think it's largely for people who are not gonna have children or don't wanna have children now.

Okay.

And for example, my boyfriend came to me and he said his son went off to college, and so now we could spend a good deal of time together. And the first thing he said to me is, he said, you know, Helen, I want two or Three nights to myself every week. Well, the first thing I did is I put my hand behind my back and I pulled it. I said, what do you really want? You want four, you want seven? Are we breaking up? He said, no, no. You know, two to three nights a week. It's perfect for me. I have all these girlfriends. I have all these things I want to do at night. Sometimes I just want to go to sleep and read a book.

You don't want to have to be in bed with someone all the time. I understand that.

And so. And of course, I mean, what we're probably doing is sustaining this in this romantic tradition. But we're both older, right? Why not?

It makes so much sense. You have your life set. You're set in your ways.

And he has his house and I have mine. And, you know, he'll be here tonight. He was not here last night, which is perfectly fine.

You look forward to seeing him. You're not picking up his socks, he's not picking up yours.

Exactly.

I think that that's.

He has his kitchen. He's got contents of his icebox, you know, fridge. And I mine. And what I really like about today is that we have alternatives. You can marry later. Women can have careers. You can get rid of things that don't work in order to make something that does. You know, some of these people are polyamorous. Well, that's not for me. I couldn't do that. But it's not a matter of morality. I just. I don't have the personality for it.

Right, right, right.

I'd be too jealous. I don't want to share, but. But the bottom line is there's people who are polyamorous. I mean, there's every other. The queer, the, you know, older people with lat, et cetera, et cetera. I think that we have every reason to be able to build the kind of partnerships that we want.

So then why is it still so hard, then, you think, for some people to. What about when we say, okay, going back to millennials, who they don. Catch feelings or they don't want to.

That's a great term.

Yeah. I don't want to catch feels. I'd never heard that before, you guys. I mean, it was like, before, like five years ago. But what is that. I mean, is that meaning. Is that protective measure? Or do you think that that's some way. I like to think, like, they never. Their friends aren't doing it, so they don't. They're not looking in. Like, I don't understand that because I Caught feelings a lot in my 20s. I couldn't help it.

Yeah, me neither. Yeah, no, I think they can't either. But they don't want to get committed. They don't want to get into that long term commitment. Another thing that you just said is you had never heard that term catchy feelings. The millennials are adding all these words to our vocabulary that I really, really like. I mean, even this thing defined the relationship dtr. Now, in my day, you went out with somebody maybe for months, if not years, and you really had no idea if they were gonna ask you to marry him. Nothing was defined.

Is there a ring in his pocket?

And now it's defined. And in fact, I asked on Match, how many. How long do you. When do you raise that issue of define the relationship? And I was astonished that they said after about four months, I wouldn't dare do it. That seems very early for me.

Oh, really?

But they want to know what's going on. They really do. They. This term about being ghosted and. Yeah, ghosted and catching feelings and all these things, they're defining all this. I really think that's terrific.

Yeah, I think so too. Because otherwise you're just like going in this abyss. And then also people also still make assumptions that, well, we slept together, so we must be committed or we've gone on three dates and that person's probably not dating anyone, even though still they're not dating anyone else.

Right.

And like, don't make any assumptions about the person you've gone on three dates with. Like, if you haven't talked about it yet.

Right.

That's when you get jealous and all these things happen. So figure it out. And I think the sooner we realize that there's so many options, it's more accepted right now too, to say to someone, I'm casually dating, I'm in friends with benefits, I want this or that. And then, then you won't be spending a year with someone who doesn't want.

The same things too.

So it makes, it makes a lot more sense going back to this living apart together thing. I just want to talk about how that is such a great thing for even couples who are married and living together now could still learn from that. Because I've always had this hunch that, like, when as a young, you know, in my 20s, I thought that makes so much sense that to have that separation or to kind of. When we talk about how women crave novelty and excitement and all the newness, it kind of makes sense to. Even if you, you're even Living together how you can kind of still instill some of that separateness. And it just makes sense. And I.

It's so interesting because, you know, I do know people who are living together and own the property together and, you know, own the apartment together. And they've lived. And very often, at least in New York, they'll have to even mesh their schedules because she's going out on Tuesday night with her girlfriends and she's going to the theater on Thursday with such and such. And what's he doing? And so they have to. I like that. I like the fact that, you know, I mean, what is it? As Kahlil Gibran, the poet said. He said, you know, put some space in your togetherness.

Yes.

And we really weren't built for 24 7. I mean, even in hunting and gathering societies, women would go off to another camp for even a few weeks. I mean, they traveled, and they didn't always travel together.

Yeah. I mean, the couples I know who have this, or like, he travels or she travels for work every third week, it's great. Like, they really like that you get to miss someone.

Yeah, I think that's. Yes. I've got two girlfriends who during the week, the husband works in Boston and the wife works in New York. And then they're together on the weekends.

So, you know, it's like long distance. But they come. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a problem.

I think it's nice in the beginning. I don't know.

I mean, but with kids, it makes it a little more challenging. Like we're talking, like, when you have kids, it can't be a lot.

Well, so it's so interesting because I was talking to a man who was recently married and has a. I think a child who's now something like 10 months old. And I talked to him about lat living apart together. And he said, oh, if I could have just one night, just one night every two weeks, just to myself. I said, I wouldn't go out with other. I Just one night in a hotel room. And immediately my friend said, oh, I bet his wife wouldn't like that. And I thought to myself, maybe she would.

That'd be the best thing that ever happened. Maybe they switch. He's home every other weekend someone goes to. Gets a hotel room.

Exactly.

Yeah. I mean, I think that we need that. God, it makes so much sense.

No, we aren't built for all this, you know, I mean, but the nice thing about these days is we can do that. I mean, you just have to be honest about it and work it out and build it together. And that's why my man was so great. I mean, I wouldn't have dared to say that.

We wouldn't have said that because it would have been like. But he needed the order at the serotonin.

I never thought of that, Emily, till this second. He needed the structure of it.

He doesn't understand.

Done. Oh, my God.

Yeah. No, I'm upset. All of your.

I not even thought of that. But he also had a lot of therapy because of very bad partnership in his past. I had chalked it up to the bad partnership. But I think that you're right.

He needed boundaries.

He needed the structure.

Tuesday nights, which night? Are you coming? Yeah. There you go.

Thank you.

Oh, my God. Whatever I can do. When we come back, Dr. Helen Fisher and I explore what goes on in our bodies when we have an orgasm.

Let's talk about orgasms, oxytocin and attachment. So how orgasms bond us. Because I always say that on the show, but I feel like I've heard you talk about it in a way that. That how it's just important to just touch in other ways. Just the importance of that bonding and touching.

You know, I mean, sex is good for you. It's good for you in many ways. And you can say all those ways better than I can. I mean, it's good for the skin, it's good for the lungs, it's good for the bladder. It's good for the sense of humor. I mean, it's just good for you if you're with the right person. And in fact, you know, any touching of the genitals drives up the dopamine system and can help you feel feelings of intense romantic love for the person. But with orgasm, there's a real flood of oxytocin and vasopressin. And those brain chemicals are linked with feelings of deep attachment to somebody. So orgasm is good. And in fact, when I ask Match.

I do this annual study with Match called Singles in America. We do not poll the MATCH members. We poll the American public. So it's a representative sample of Americans based on the US Census. And almost 70% of women, regardless.

Regard it as good sex unless they have an orgasm. I mean, the old days where you're supposed to lie back and think of England are over.

Women want sexual gratification just as men do.

But can it get confusing, though, too? Just if you people who think that they can't be with several people, because women are like, well, if I have an orgasm with them, I'M totally attached and I can't be with anyone else.

Well, I don't know. I never thought of that. But, but I mean, I do think that it brings you closer to somebody. I mean, that's one of the reasons that people, you know, sex is not casual. Unless you're so drunk that you can't remember it, it's not casual. I mean, things happen. You learn a great deal about a person. I mean, you learn, you know, not only size and shape and motion, but whether they're kind, whether they can listen, whether they can accommodate, whether they want to please, whether they do have a sense of humor, whether they're, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So you learn a lot between the sheets. And I do think once you get into bed with somebody, you know, I mean, sex, you know, triggers five of the 12 cranial nerves. I mean, you, you, you see them, you hear them, you smell them, you taste them, you feel them. I mean, the, the whole brain becomes activated by the whole experience. And of course, with orgasm, it's one of the most powerful feelings the human animal can have. So.

You know, it's good to have a partner that, that you like in bed. And, you know, I mean, it's not the only part of a relationship that you can certain.

Just to remind couples that, like, the touch is important too, just touching and organizing.

Absolutely.

Couples like, oh, we don't need any more sex. So usually there's one person that says that, but you do. You have to continue to connect or.

Figure out a way to do it. I mean, that's a. I mean, you're a sex therapist. But I would think that, I mean, I've always heard from sex therapists that that's one of the biggest problems when one individual wants more.

Yeah, that's the biggest problem. Right?

Yeah. And, you know, I'm not a therapist, but if I was with somebody, I would be tempted to say, listen, this is an important part of a relationship. If you're not interested, maybe you should try taking some testosterone that's been amazing.

The supplements for you.

Or understand that this is a meaningful part for this other person and that you should try to accommodate. And the more sex you have, the more you want. The less you have, the less you want.

But we forget after time, like we haven't had an orgasm for a while.

Right. So. No. And it's very good for the body and the mind. So, I mean, it's a very important now, I mean, there's some people who aren't terribly interested in sex and they marry somebody who's also not terribly interested in sex and that's fine, whatever. Probably not quite as healthy.

Right?

But. But it's fine for them.

Personality types. Now, are you the only one who pulled about these four types?

Yes, I'm the only one.

I think everyone. I'm literally all I can think about now. I'm putting everyone into personality types and why certain.

It's an entire new idea and the business world really likes it. I'm making more and more speeches in business because, you know, I mean, how do these different kinds of people innovate? How do they lead? How do you build a team and.

Do that same quiz that's on your same one for businesses? We should figure that out.

Yeah. Because this is not about love. This is about personality, you know, and so, I mean, for example, one of the problems in business is that people, if, let's say you're building a team, you tend to choose teammates who are like yourself, because you can understand them. Now, if you and I were going to Laos, we might want to have a third person who gets the airline tickets. I mean, we could rein them in. We don't want something. We don't want an agenda for every single day we're there. So it's important to build a team with some of the people that you are not like. I mean, I am all for cultural diversity, but how about diversity of mind? Putting some people in your team who do not think the way you do? I mean, I've started this new company called Neurochemical Color and we've got a second generation personality questionnaire. And we go into businesses and we train people on understanding these four styles of thinking and behaving and how to build a team and how to. How you want to be talked to. I don't like to be talked. I don't like it when the testosterone tells me, where'd you get that purse?

Yeah.

Or that shirt is cheap. Get rid of it. I mean, I can do it, but it's tiring for me. I'm trying to be sweet and smile and, you know.

But you might need that guy to talk to your salespeople.

Exactly. You, the co founder and I, his name is Dave Labno and he's very high testosterone. I'm very high estrogen. There's a little clash there at times, but we're both very high dopamine. We need a high serotonin person. We need the builder. And there's times that we don't know what to do. And so we will call. We've got another two people in the company who are very high serotonin. And we call them and ask them, what would you do do under the circumstances? What do you think about this? Because we are not going to see it the way a high serotonin builder would see it. And it's very valuable to have people around who can do the things that you don't do and also get them in the right job. You know, I was once out at Visa, the credit card company and everybody had taken my personality questionnaire and I could see that there was this one woman took my personality questionnaire. She was the head of the account accounting department, a big, big part of Visa. But on my questionnaire she was all Explorer, all, all high dopamine. And of course in accounting you're a bean counter. I mean it's high serotonin and it's a very different kind of task. And so I pulled her aside because I didn't want to embarrass her in front of her colleagues. Everything I said, tell me which is more the real you, the you at work or the you outside of work? And she said, oh, outside of work. You know, which was my questionnaire showed. And she said work is very tiring and it's because she's having to fit herself in to a role that she doesn't naturally play.

But did she like it or was she like oh, thank you. I wanted to be.

I didn't.

But it's interesting to look at that.

Yeah.

To people to. Yeah. Getting yourself in wrong places that, to kind of go towards where your natural, your skills are.

That, that would be the leaders of the company to try and put people with. They will do their best and people will do their best. Now, for example, with innovation, I mean you are gonna think outside the box and come up with a new idea, a better mousetrap. That's what you're gonna do. But you want a nice high serotonin person to create the process, innovate the new process for how it's done. That's gonna be. Make you too impatient. You're gonna want a high tech guy to build the whatever it is, the testosterone. Yeah. And then you're gonna want a high estrogen, which is also you to sell it, to advertise it to, et cetera, et cetera. So just getting people in the right place is very valuable.

I'm so glad businesses are picking this up and couple and people dating.

People want to date.

I mean, you know, people have like, what about people have like Myers Briggs and stuff on their Persona. But not everyone takes it. Not everyone gets it.

It's a little more. Well, one of the things that's very hard to remember. I am itp. You know, it's very difficult to remember. It's much easier to remember. Explorer builder.

It's really smart. Good on you.

Director and negotiator.

So it's hard for to remember, but also it puts you in buckets. And the bottom line is you can act out of character. I can do serotonin. I mean, I pay my bills every month. I do get my schedule under control, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't feel like doing it right ever. Ever. And I mean, what takes my boyfriend two seconds to go onto the Internet to buy an airplane ticket? I'll wait days before I make the call.

Yeah, days. Days. Someone's to come sit next to me on my couch. My sister. I'm like, okay, we're doing it now. We're doing it now.

I know, it's awesome.

Yeah, that's just who I am. I'm not gonna change it.

No.

Feel so much better.

Yeah.

Just embracing it.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's so funny. And then dating the fan, then realizing what's important to you, and then finding people who can kind of come fulfill that.

I mean, I had one man that I've hung around with for years. I mean, we're just friends. I've probably known him for 15 years. We have gone to the same restaurant for 15 years. And he always wants to go. He's just high serotonin guy. And I thought to myself over these past years, you know, he would never be a lover. I mean, he's barely been to Europe, you know, I mean, he just likes to stay home. He likes to steady.

And that's biology. Truly. It's not anything about your parents raised you.

You know, it's so interesting. When my book on this came out. Why him? Why her? My editor for the book called me up. He had just read the first draft. He said, you know, Helen, I finally understand my son. And my editor was very high, high explorer, dopamine, risk taking, novelty seeking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic. But his son was the high serotonin. He wanted to stay home. And he was a cautious kid. He didn't want to go out on all these adventures that his father wanted to go on. And he said, I love my son, but I never understood him until now.

Right. You just get it that way. Who knows if it's because of the way he raised him or if it's.

Because, oh, it's because it's. Oh, I think he's a high serotonin kid.

Yeah, I just have biology.

I mean, I've got.

You look. Measure their brain. You measure their brains, right?

But yes, I did. And that's why this is my questionnaire is so unusual. I got all the data from looking at the brain literature to make the questionnaire. But then I put two groups of people who had taken the questionnaire into the brain scanner to prove that what I was measuring with my questionnaire actually corresponded with what was in the brain. So if I were to put you into my machine first, I'd give you the questionnaire. You score very high on my dopamine scale, the Explorer. And then when I looked at your brain, I'd see a long. A lot of activity in the whole dopamine pathway. I would also see activity in the brain region for empathy, because that's estrogen and with verbal skills, because that's estrogen. So I would be able to see your brain and see. Yes, that's why it's different from the Myers Briggs, from all the other Myers Briggs actually is quite right in some ways, but they don't know it. For example, I don't know how much you know about the Myers Briggs.

A little bit. Yeah.

Well, when they're measuring the degree to which you are feeling versus thinking, what they're really measuring, they don't know it, but they're really measuring the traits of the testosterone versus estrogen system. And when they're the perceiving versus judging P versus judging, they're really measuring the traits of the dopamine versus the serotonin system. Once again, they don't know it, but that's what they're doing.

They like simplified it.

That it sounds like what I did is I got the biology to it. But then they put you in a bucket, you're either perceiving or judging. They got one thing wrong. And in fact, everybody's gotten one thing wrong. I think I've never written about this, but I do measure it in my neurocolor.

What did they get wrong?

I don't think anybody in business or in psychology or layman actually understand extroversion versus introversion. I think that Isabel Myers had it right of Myers and Briggs in that it's where you get your energy. Now, I'm an introvert. I get my energy from being alone. But if I go into a party, I'm talkative, I'm laughing, I can be the life of the party, etc. Etc. And what they do is they confuse introverts with sort of wallflowers and extroverts with sort of the life of the party. But I think they're two separate scales. The degree to which you get your energy, which is introversion versus extroversion, and a whole second scale which is outgoing versus reserved.

Now I, Yeah, that makes so much sense.

I am an outgoing introvert.

Yeah, this is a whole new thing, I think, that makes so much sense.

And my brain scanning partner is a reserved extrovert. She has to have people around. There are people constantly going in and out of her house. There's dogs, there's cats, there's people, there's. You name it, there's.

But she's reserved around people.

That's so interesting. That makes sense. It's too simple to say because I love being alone, but I'm an extrovert. But yeah, I need my alone time because around people all the time. But I get energy from people, I think.

Yeah. And Myers Briggs have that wrong. And I think the other thing that they've got wrong is putting you in a bucket because we're all a combination of all of them. It's a matter of degree. Now, my boyfriend is particularly high on the dopamine and the testosterone skills, but he's got some serotonin in him. Myers Briggs would not pick that up.

Okay.

And that serotonin in him has been valuable. I mean, he, he makes the plans. He actually likes it. I keep on apologizing. Oh, I'm so sorry. I never get us the hotel room. I never do.

He likes it, though. He needs to know that it's happening, that you have a place to go. Maybe he enjoys looking at. I mean, my mom has something of a very similar. Like he loves the planning and doing it, so he appreciates it. I want to talk to you about rejection.

Yeah.

Because you talk about the most painful. You say it's the most painful experience a human can endure. And I agree. Can we talk about that a little bit? The phases of rejection and what happens in romantic love and getting rejected.

So after I put my first group of people into the brain scanner who are happily in love, and that got a lot of press and I said to my, you know, Helen, that's really not very important. What's really important is to find out what happens when you've been rejected in love. I mean, that's, that's when people murder or commit suicide or slip into clinical depression or stalk. I mean, if I'm going to make any contribution on this planet, it's going to be among people who are rejected in love. So we put 15 people into the scanner, and we found activity in a lot of brain regions. Among them, three brain regions linked with craving. The basic brain region linked with addiction. It's an addiction.

Yeah, you become addicted to the obsessed.

And certainly also the brain region linked with feelings of intense romantic love. I mean. I mean, you don't stop loving somebody because they dumped you. In fact, you can love them more.

Right, right.

And a brain region linked with feelings of deep attachment, of course. And a brain region linked with physical pain. Not only the anxiety that goes along with physical pain, but a brain region that also becomes active. When you have tooth pain, but you go to the dentist, the tooth pain's gone. A week later, you've forgotten it. You don't forget somebody a week after they've dumped you. It can go on for months or years. So basically this. Yeah, this I know. You know, when I was writing my book on that why we love, I thought to. To myself, why do we go through this? I mean, why aren't we just. Why isn't it easier to break up? I mean, everybody gets dumped. And I thought to myself, well, you know, look at what you're losing. I mean, you're not only losing your daily routines, your daily habits, somebody to make love to and laugh with, but you could be losing your children or the dog or the house and economic problems and, you know, where do you go at Christmas or Hanukkah or wherever? And I mean, you know, I mean, you.

You lose a great deal and, and, and company. Yeah, you.

Absolutely. You can lose friends, you can lose neighbors, you can lose a lot. But what you're really losing is a reproductive partner. You've lost your opportunity to send your DNA on with this individual. And if you've already had children with the person, you're losing a parent.

Right. What if you don't want children? What if you're older and you still hurts?

It always hurts. It always hurts. I mean, you know, it always hurts. It always is so painful and that. But it is a problem process. I mean, psychiatrists say, this is not my work. Psychiatrists say that, you know, the first thing is the protest stage. You just try to win the person back. You know, you can try to seduce, you can try insult them. You walk in and say, I'll never see you again. You have a big drama, you walk out. Ten minutes later you're back to do it again. Right. It's an obsession. And you're trying to win the person Back you can seduce, you can try and make them jealous. You can.

Do a lot of things. And then after a while, you just flat out give up. And that's the second stage. You move from protest to resignation. And then you sort of slump onto the bed and you just lie there and you cry or you drink too much, you drive too fast, you hole up and watch tv. And after a while that begins to fade and you move into recovery. So it really is a whole pattern. But, you know, men and women do it somewhat differently. Women try to negotiate a great deal, whereas men will try to make a woman jealous or go out and get another relationship almost immediately to try to make the person jealous. So they'll do it somewhat differently. But is it true?

You think that men do it like that, but then they feel it later?

I saw just as much sorrow in the men that I put into the brain scanner as the women. They don't talk about it as much. Women talk about it too much.

I agree.

And what they're doing then is re traumatizing. I mean, it's something. You do want to talk about it to a point, but after a while you need to stop talking about it because every time you raise the issue again with friends and family, you're re traumatizing yourself, you're reliving it at some point. And that happened to me once with this guy. I mean, it was ridiculous. He was constantly leaving with me, leaving me. And finally, you know, I said to my girlfriends, I, I'm not going to talk about it anymore because I'm just retraumatizing myself.

It's so helpful, right? And then you heal time. Time does heal all wounds. It is.

But would you think we've been able to prove that actually these rejected people, the longer you get away from the moment of initial rejection, the less activity there is in a brain region linked with feelings of attachment. So we've been able to prove that in the brain, time does heal. But if women talk about it too much, men often don't talk about it enough so they don't process it. And there was this one guy. You've got to sort of build a story that you can then get rid of. And there was this one guy that left me. I could not figure out why he left. Not figure it out. And I finally said to myself, and I was never gonna know because he was gone. So I thought to. I finally said to myself, helen, make it up. Just make up your story. Make up the story of why you left, what went wrong, what you did make it up. And so that you can. Once you get a story, you can throw the story out. You can bury the story that worked.

You just think about it like, this is what happened.

To this day, I don't know why I left, but I got my story.

You never know either. Like, even. Cause that's the thing about the actors.

You probably wouldn't even. And tell me. Right. If I.

You know, kind of thing.

Yeah. I mean, I already make it up, you know.

Yeah, but we make up so many stories in our head about things, too. Like, even on the apps, and we get more rejected, or we had a great date and they ghosted.

Yeah.

You're never gonna know anyway. And you spend an hour, two hours with someone, and you've spent 10 days obsessing about, it doesn't matter. Make a point. Just move on. You got to move on.

You got to move on.

Makes sense, though, why it's so hard.

You know, make it up. Make it up. I mean, that's what I would do. I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist or, you know, therapist like you are, but I. But, you know, if. If I was on the Internet and I had a really wonderful date with somebody, or two wonderful dates with somebody, and, geez, I thought it was great, and then they said to me, well, I'll call you next week, and then they never do. I would think I would. I mean, if you really had no idea. I don't know. I mean, just off the top of my head, I guess I would say, well, maybe his girlfriend came back.

Exactly. Maybe.

Maybe it doesn't have to do with me.

Doesn't have to do with you. That's why I tell people all the time. First of all, you'll never know. But just assume it has nothing to do with you. How could it, after one date, two dates, anyway? Or if it does, it doesn't mean you'll never know.

Yeah, never know.

It's healthier, though, not to beat yourself up and go to the negative.

Exactly.

Which is what we're wired to do, right?

Exactly. People would say, well, love is dead. You can't kill love. It's a brain system. It evolved over 4 million years ago. It's gonna be with us as long as we survive as a species 4 million years from now. It's like the fear system or the hope system. It's a basic brain system we will always love.

Well, I love that you've made your life work out of studying love. It's been so helpful for so many people, including myself. Well, thank you yeah. Thank you. Me too. Thank you Dr. Ellen Fish. Sure.

That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily. Be sure to like subscribe and give us a review. Wherever you listen to podcasts and share this with a friend or a partner, believe me, if you got something out of this, they will too. We release two to three episodes a week. Find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. It's all sexwithemily. If you want to ask me a question about sex, dating or relationships, you can email me feedbackexwithemily.com or sexwithemily.com askemily and check out my website. We have so many articles on there helping you better sex. And you can check out our guides@sexwithemily.com Guides for free guides that will give you expansive tips and activities. Sign up for our weekly emails because hey, I've been told I give really good emails. Was it good for you? Email me feedbackexwithemily.com there's one overlooked mineral behind better sleep. Sharper focus, stronger muscles and a healthier heart. And at least half of us aren't getting enough. Most people don't realize they're running low on one of the most vital minerals for human health. Magnesium. And here's the thing, no single form of magnesium can deliver all of its benefits. That's exactly why Qualia Magnesium plus was created with 10 highly bioavailable forms of magnesium plus over 70 essential minerals. It provides total magnesium support, helping you sleep better, think clearer, move stronger and feel. Feel your best every day. And honestly, when you're less stressed and more energized, your intimacy and desire naturally benefit too. Sure, magnesium can help you sleep, but Qualia Magnesium plus goes beyond that. It's a whole body nourishment for how you think, move, connect and feel. More than just a sleep supplement. It's a foundation for daily well being which absolutely supports a healthier sex life. Getting enough magnesium from food alone is harder than ever due to depleted soils and chronic stress and our body's reduced ability to absorb it as we age. Well, Qualia's Magnesium plus formula is non gmo, vegan, gluten free and designed so all the ingredients work together for comprehensive magnesium support. And personally, I've been taking Qualia Magnesium plus in the evenings and I really noticed calmer nights and clearer mornings and just feeling more grounded in my body, which always makes intimacy feel more accessible and enjoyable. It's become such an easy part of my nightly routine. Experience the most trusted magnesium for your purity potency and performance. Go to qualialife. Com sexwithemily for 50% off. And here's a bonus use the code sexwithemily for an additional 15% off your order. That's Q U A L I alife.com sexwithemily. Thanks for qualia for sponsoring this episode.