Best Of: The Lies of Monogamy w/ Dr. Shefali

We are doing our part to allow the takers in our lives to take, or whatever dynamic we've set up in our lives. It's not that it's not true that they are with a narcissist taker. Of course they are, but they have to look at what they're doing to maintain the citadel of that relationship. It's a fortress, and it takes two to keep the fortress up.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily Morse, and And I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex. On today's show, I'm joined by author and psychologist Dr. Shefali to discuss what culture has done to our sexuality. Dr. Shefali talks about how to turn your pain into power, how to rethink marriage as a model for growth, whether monogamy is natural or not, and how to replace societal conditioning with something more wild, interesting, and frankly, pretty sexy. And that is worthiness. Now, Dr. Shefali has specific opinions about marriage and monogamy coming from her own experiences. She's also speaking from a heteronormative perspective during this interview, and I just wanna acknowledge that penis and vulva owners have varying desires and motivation. So it's completely valid if you're different from the people described here, but I'm certain that you will find something to relate to in this episode. These are just generalizations and stereotypes used to describe our culture, more than any individual.

Please rate and review Sex with Emily wherever you listen to the show. It's so easy to rate the podcast. You can do it right now. It takes 2 seconds and it helps get the show out to more people. We appreciate you when you do that, and we read all your reviews. You can also find me on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, Facebook, all the places. It's all @sexwithemily. And check out my new articles, How to Have or Give a Nipplegasm and 5 Ways to Pleasure Penis. Those are up on sexwithemily.com. Okay, one more quick thing before we get into the episode. I'm so excited to announce that I'm doing something for the very first time, and I hope you're going to join me. So I'm hosting an intimate women's retreat at Canyon Ranch Wellness Resort and Spa in Tucson, Arizona. It's coming up. It's June 27th to June 30th, 2024. So we're going to spend 4 days and 3 nights together where I'm going to answer all of your questions in person. I'm so excited to meet you and have intimate discussions throughout the weekend about pleasure and sexuality, sexual intelligence, We'll have a special retail pop-up experience. We'll have cocktails. I'll also have all my favorite product recommendations, and I just hope you're gonna join me. You can also experience all of Canyon Ranch's incredible offerings. They have over 200 wellness classes, courses, fitness journeys.

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So please join me. I'm gonna put a link in the show notes, and you can also find more information at sexwithemily.com/live. That's sexwithemily.com/live, and I just can't wait to see you there. All right, everyone, enjoy this episode.

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Dr. Shefali is an expert in family dynamics and personal development, Oprah's favorite parenting expert, New York Times bestselling author, and renowned clinical psychologist. Her newest book is called A Radical Awakening: Turn Your Pain into Power, Embrace Your Truth, and Live Free.

Dr. Shefali has just launched her new podcast, Parenting and You with Dr. Shefali. It's for every human who was once a child or raising one, and she does real-time coaching with parents. So go check out her podcast now, and you can follow her on all platforms @DrShefali.

Well, I just, I just loved, loved, loved your book. There is so much to unpack that it's almost like I wish we had 6 hours, but we do not, not today. I would love to move into the lies. The Lies of Love, The Lies of Marriage, The Lies of Monogamy. Can we talk about that? What are some of the lies of love?

Well, that love, you know, whenever we get into a love-based relationship, we are immediately talking about what does this mean. We want to label it, we want to define it, we want to prescribe it, we want to contain it, and we want to control it. So love that doesn't end in quote-unquote marriage, really, you know, we act like it's not love. You know, marriage seems to be the pedestal, and that's not true. You know, actually, marriage in many ways is the anti-pedestal, because the greatest love is free. You know, it's organic, it's spontaneous, and it's uncontained. You actually don't need to get married. That's the greatest love, right? To have a couple or whatever the configuration, to stay in love and not get married. Now that's love, right? Because they don't need the legal contract, they don't need the backing of the church or the court or culture. They don't need the endorsement. They just know who they are. That to me is the strongest love. Yeah, but we've got it all convoluted here, as if, you know, yeah, let the priest sanctify. Why do you need the priest to sanctify you? Why do you need culture to come watch you? Why do you need, uh, legalities of a contract? A contract? Think about it. We have contracted love and we call that— that is the pinnacle. No, that is the anti-pinnacle.

So what you're saying is, and one of the lies that you talk about in your book, is that we are told that if we're in love, well, then it means we have to get married. And I struggled with that in my 20s. There was an expectation that if you dated someone seriously, you just have to be thinking about marriage. And while I wasn't ready to prioritize marriage myself, so I found myself really alone in my beliefs. There weren't many other role models of people who were saying, I'm just gonna date and I'm gonna decide what kind of relationship I wanna be in. And I want the listeners to understand that we're I'm not saying monogamy and marriage isn't right for so many people. But I also want you to know that there's options that might work for you. You don't have to get married. You can have a partnership without the legal contract.

You didn't buy into the institution, you know, of course, marriage can be for whoever, but understand what you're doing. It's an institution. It's legal, it's contractual, it's judicial, therefore, so you have all that interfering, and you have religion interfering. And what if you did not? Get raised in these ways, you wouldn't get married.

You'd just be loving.

Why does love have to be, you know— and I did it. Listen, I went for the institution, so I can now talk from both sides.

You know, do what—

do it, but understand what the hell you're doing. You know, I tell my daughter, have the party. I promise I'll buy— I'll match every gift. Just don't legally sign a contract because you don't need to. You don't need to lie. You don't need to. You know, I'll bring the whole town to watch you. I'll make sure they all give you gifts, but eat a lot of cake, but just don't legally. You don't need to, because it is set up for then control, for possession, for, you know, you're breaking a contract. You're not breaking anything. You're just leaving a relationship, right?

Exactly.

Suddenly it becomes about, you signed a contract, you promised me your life. It's based on control and, and fear. And then it becomes about scarcity, not abundance, not growth. It quickly can turn into all these things. And when it does, that's a tragedy because it doesn't need to be.

You know, I personally felt that I was so alone in my beliefs because it never made sense to me that I'd never be attracted to someone else or want to have sex with someone else, you know, till death do us part. It seems like a really long time to ignore my attraction to other people. And I remember thinking this at 19. And not to mention all the elements that go along with it of possession and ownership of another person. Why do you think so many people blindly sign up for marriage?

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think you actually had humility. I remember the reason I got in, and I think most of us— people won't like what I'm about to say. You know, given that it has a 60% failure rate in America, and the fact that we're getting married every week just shows that it must come from some blind, delusional grandiosity like this. I know what I'm saying. I can predict the future. I am amazing that this person will never want to look at anyone else. And what we have, unlike what every other 60% of the failure couple rate have, is special. You know, it's like Cinderella found her prince. I'm telling you, it comes from some delusional fantasy because actually we don't know the future. We are not that amazing. We've not even explored ourselves. We don't even know who we are. What the hell are we doing? Especially if we're under 30, what are we doing? We're just playing house, you know. You, you be the mommy and I'll be the daddy. And we— I'm telling you, it's a grandiose delusion coming from some narcissism that, you know what, I'm going to be amazing. And then, then at least you'll realize, well, I live in this bubble that I'm so special. Listen, marriage's failure rate is— I mean, failure rate is not a failure, you know, it's just reality. The reality rate is so natural. And if 60% are quote-unquote going through it, another 30% are thinking about it. Okay, I mean, yes, and then 10% are about to. So, and I say 2% are really quote-unquote happy, but it's not about happiness or unhappiness, it's about Happy, happy, happy. Now I need to move on. You know, it's just so simple. It's not about unhappiness. It's not about failure. It's about now the container is not serving me anymore. You know, but we're not allowed to think like that. It's blasphemous. And, you know, it's the Antichrist.

It's the, it's the message from the devil.

I mean, what, you're— people are going to be so upset.

Well, personally, I felt so alone and I didn't have any models around me of people who chose not to get married or have kids, but I also knew it just didn't feel right for me. And I also knew the failure rate of marriages.

Yeah, and listen, I was in the marriage for 25 years.

No joke. You know, I did it, was in it. I've been a parent. My daughter's 18. So I'm not talking against anything. I'm talking in a way that helps you deconstruct what you are within. I'm not against it, I'm not pro it. In fact, I say go do it because you learn so much. Yeah. But what I wanna teach people is just understand what you're doing and how you're in control mode or possession mode and ownership mode and just see it for what it is so that when you are going through it, you understand why you are going through the pain you are.

Can you talk more about the connection between control and possession in marriage?

Well, you know, it's what we've been alluding to, that when you get married, implicitly there's an understanding that I'm the only one you're gonna be attracted to. I'm talking about a traditional relationship. You should have eyes only for me. You know, women typically are getting upset when their husbands are looking at anybody, you know, okay, can you not look? Apparently, your eyes belong to me, your eyeballs belong to me. 'Your penis belongs to me,' you know, 'Your body parts belong,' 'Your imagination belongs.' Everything out of that is considered a sacrilege, right? 'How could you do this to me? You promised me your fidelity.' But really, when you break it down, what does that mean, right? How are we owning another person? Because they are the ones you love? And then what is love? And isn't love then freedom? Of course there are boundaries, but the boundaries come through communication. Communication is the best boundary, right?

They're the only real—

I mean, the boundary you can really have with another person is clarity, communication, negotiation, understanding. You cannot tie that person to you and tell them that their behaviors and actions belong to you, and if they go with their own free flow, now they're betraying you.

You know, the other person is like, you know, I'm just doing me, how am I betraying you?

But it becomes about betrayal because we have that in the vernacular.

It's set up.

He betrayed me, she cheated on me.

You know, how about, you know, she's exploring herself, or he's finding himself?

These words we use— cheater, betrayer, you know— and we, we're so pompous and righteous when, when the other one messes up like that, right? You have jurisdiction because of this contract.

What has culture done to our sexuality then?

Oh my goodness, made us all lie and cheat and pretend. I mean, really, women are faking orgasms, men are faking fidelity, to put it mildly and stereotypically. I mean, everyone is lying, you know. If you're alive to your sexuality, there's no way you're not going to be exploring it. And when you explore it, you go into murky waters. So it's so dangerous to talk about these things. You just don't talk about it. It's very dangerous.

Yeah, it's not encouraged for us to feel safe talking about our sexuality and our desires.

We're conditioned, both men and women, by religion and the puritanism of this culture— shockingly puritanical— to really suppress our sexuality. And so women are taught, you know, we're slutty or we're whores, or I don't know what labels we're given.

Yes.

We are, you know, if we masturbate or we explore or we like different experiences. And men are taught, you know, and men, you know, they think they, they, the only way they can be is to get married. So they get married foolishly, foolishly not realizing it could be way beyond their, their, uh, capacity to be monogamous. They want to be monogamous, but it may not be part of their capacity. And so then they find themselves leaking here and leaking there. And, and, you know, women may think it's an insult if they watch pornography because they're trying to get some needs met. I mean, it's such, it's such, such a value judgment placed on sex and, and exploring sexuality. So much judgment and fear because, again, we possess the other person's body parts. You know, and, and so it really takes openness from both sides to open up this beautiful sexuality. And women are trained in particular to actually not be sexual, right? We've been— we are inhibited. And orgasm for us is not easy. So, you know, it's not immediate or easy or direct.

No, it takes at least 40 minutes with a partner, 20 to 40 minutes on average.

And we have different orgasms, different things. And we have not been taught how to explore it. And so men and women right there are at odds, right? Men can orgasm so fast, so quickly. Women can't. And then there's a mismatch. So then do we lie? Do we fake it? So, you know, it's something that we need to allow ourselves to explore more freely without the value judgments that we've placed on it. You know, sexuality has also been corrupted by morality and loyalty. And sexuality is separate from morality. You know, you're not a bad person if you're a sexual person. You're not a good person if you're asexual. You know, you don't get extra points because you just like one person. But somehow we think, you know, oh, I only have liked— I've only been attracted to one person, I'm a good person. No, you're just— wow, like, wow, you've only been attracted to one person kind of person.

That's all.

Yeah, that's nothing more. That doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean anything. It just means wow.

Okay, you know, do you think that we're meant to be monogamous?

Well, research has shown that no dimorphic animal species, you know, where males and females can be easily identifiable, no dimorphic species is monogamous. We are monogamous by acculturation. And people— but people argue that it's an evolved way to be. I think it's not. I think it's an acculturated way to be. But You know, you just have to look at nature to see that no dimorphic species ever is monogamous.

And essentially we are animals.

But essentially, if you really break down couples, you'll see that no one is really monogamous. Someone in the couple is, is not, not practicing monogamy, either in fantasy, either pornography, either in desire. It's just not possible.

So what you're saying is, even if you're only with one person, it might not be a monogamous relationship because the lines are blurred. Truly about what it means when you're engaging in active fantasy on your own, which I think is healthy. But some would say that's breaking a marriage contract and societal expectations.

Men just don't talk about it because they've been so shamed. You know, men are so shamed to talk about how many times their penis is erect in a day. You know, ask your male friends how many times. They'll be embarrassed because they've been told that that's bad, but it's their wiring. You know, now I'm not saying that they have to act on it, but they can at least be acknowledged or understood for it. But we women shame them, we call them animals. But they are, and we are, you know. So we're very cruel to men too, you know. So men have their own code, you know, and then they act out because they're not part of culture. They're not, they're not told that they're, they're normal or they're healthy. They've been told that they should be ashamed. Poor guys, you know.

I know, and I'm not condoning perverted behavior and certainly not condoning violence.

Uh, I'm just saying that they too have a huge shadow aspect to their sexuality, right? Women are— we're like, oh, I don't want to fuck every day, sorry, so you should want to fuck every day.

No, but they're different than you.

They're completely differently wired.

I did this too.

I was highly judgmental and moral. I was like, well, sex is not on my mind all the time, so it shouldn't be on your mind. You know, but now I realize how fallacious that is, how erroneous and how cruel I was, you know?

Yeah, because you were protecting yourself. You were still in that role of protecting yourself, of feeling like not lovable, not worthy. If he went out and he was masturbating or doing something else, you think, well, that's wrong, right?

Well, also because I didn't understand how different males and females are, right?

So I was just very presumptuous and moralistic. And righteous that if I don't—

you should.

It's like, I'm vegetarian, how can you be not?

It's like I was— and women are that.

We don't understand the male experience, and males don't understand the female experience. So we need to talk more, basically.

Right, right, exactly. But what about like shame and sexuality? How do you— yeah, where does shame fit into this? There's so much shame we have around talking about it.

Religion has made sure we feel shameful. Because religion has told us uncontrolled sexuality is bad and we need to control it. And the more we control it, actually, the more we suppress it. And eventually we have a perverted sexual— which we do, you know, we're very perverted here in our sexuality. It's all hidden, it's all underground, it's all sneaky, you know, and nothing is out in the open. No one, you know, at a dinner party, no one would really talk about sexuality. No, but yet it's part of our everyday experience. We're just so ashamed. So religion has done its part to make sure that we feel like we are bad people if we talk about sexuality. Good girls don't talk about sex, of course.

Exactly right. But in your book, it's mostly geared towards women, but I think that men will get a lot out of it as well. But this awakening process that you talk about and understanding the lies that we're telling us, I have to be perfect, and a perfect woman wouldn't be loud in bed, or a perfect woman wouldn't masturbate, a woman who is, you know, just all these, these messaging. So I think doing these exercises in the book too, and asking yourself these questions could really help so many women open up and realize other areas in their life. It's not just sex where they're not allowing themselves to fully step into their pleasure.

When we don't step into our sexuality, it means we haven't accepted who we are. We don't welcome who we are and we don't integrate who we are. So our sexuality is our way of celebrating ourselves because we've honored our body. We love our body. We are celebrating it with abandon. So it's, it's a symbol of greater inner connectivity.

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There's one quote I pulled out about the Buddha. So the Buddha also said that life is Maya, meaning an illusion.

Things are not as they seem.

Can we talk about that? Because that seems to be one of the main premises of your book, that we don't often really see life the way it is. Life is an illusion.

Sure. So because we are conditioned by culture and our childhoods so indelibly, it's really hard to realize that much of our reality is now based really because of our mental conditioning. So what we think is real is not real because it's really our conditioning. So much of our current life in the modern era, with all its institutions, with, with all its ways of being, with all its dogma and right and wrong, are not because that's the way it is. It's because that's the way we have been mentally conditioned to perceive reality as. So unless we go on a quest to deconstruct our own minds and to become aware of our minds, we will think that things are the way they are, but they're not, without realizing that, no, it's the way I see them to be, right? So much of our reality, especially for women, is based on our deep, pervasive, ubiquitous mental conditioning, which shapes our identity, which shapes our ways of being, and we don't even realize it. So this book is an exposé into the ways in which we women in particular have been shaped to think of ourselves in particular ways, and those ways are not true. They are the ways we've been shaped to think of ourselves.

You know, I often say in the show, like, are your thoughts— are not the truth. And much like you, I actually did my first Vipassana retreat when I was in my early 20s, and so I've been on this path. And I'm actually waiting for my next breakdown soon, but I know that you, you, you, you've gone through something in your mid-forties where, again, this is something that we often talk about on the show and in life, people kind of get a spiritual life or understanding that we need to learn to understand our thoughts and investigate them. But I always say your work's never done. You kind of talk about what brought you to this book, A Radical Awakening, and what was going on for you.

Yeah.

Our work is never done and it's always in layers.

And you, at, you know, every few decades, you're going to go through something really big, inevitable. And the more you don't go through, the more the big one is coming. So it's better to go through many small ones, I think. But anyway, so, you know, I think like many women in their 40s, who have children, who typically by then are in their teens, women in particular go through the next iteration of who am I, you know, we've raised— I raised my daughter, my daughter hit 15. And I went through another, you know, realization of who am I, And I had been going through, you know, a lot of spiritual unfolding all through my motherhood. I wrote 4 books, I was on this path, and I found myself at a juncture where my marriage was not keeping up with my growth, and the container of my marriage was not outpacing my growth. So I, I was outpacing the marital container. And, uh, so I went through a huge, you know, spiritual death, uh, in a way, as many people may do when you realize you've outgrown your partner or your container of where you were comfortable for so long. And, uh, you know, I had to make a choice. Do I keep growing, or do I kind of go back into this container which was so comfortable and lovely for me for so many years but no longer was a comfort place? It was actually a place of of discomfort now. So do I leave or do I stay? You know, I went through what many women go through. The choice was not so hard to make, it was obvious. But what I encountered in making the choice was what is in this book, which is the pressures women go through to make a choice like that, and the shame you feel, the guilt you feel, the fear you feel. Not because the individual choice was hard, but because what culture puts on you and the labels culture puts on you. So then when I realize, oh, I can make this choice, but I'm encountering cultural institutions that are making me feel ashamed, that's when I realize that, wow, other women must be going through this as well, and I need to write about it and honor other women by honoring myself and vice versa and give ourselves permission. So this book really is my own giving myself permission and giving other women permission to make big radical changes, to not be afraid of transformation, to go with the flow of their spiritual growth and not hold themselves back. So this is a book that is an ode to courage, an ode to transparency, and really an ode to authenticity.

Yeah. What I love that you're speaking about is that so many women, and I have a lot of friends going through this, like, who am I without the kids, without being a mom, empty nest? What have I given up? And maybe regret and then turning towards their partner. You know, maybe they've grown so much and their partner didn't keep up with it and they're all sort of in this place. And then when you think about divorce, it sounds like this awful thing. Like the way that we measure marriage success based on longevity rather than on growth. And then this notion that when you start deciding to get divorced, thinking like, oh, I'm gonna be judged, or what's to say, it's a failure. What do you do if you are in a relationship? I know this is like a huge question, but. And you've done your work, you've been in therapy, you've been talking about it with your friends, and your partner just says, I'm not going to therapy, I'm not working, I'm not growing. And they don't wanna grow. People just stay many times.

I know you come to a tough choice. I think those of us who take inner work seriously and grow will inevitably come to that choice point if their partner isn't. And, you know, we just have to ask ourselves, what do I honor about the present moment? Do I honor my growth right now, or do I honor the safety of the relationship? It's typically a trade-off between safety and familiarity and the unknown of your growth. And it's tough, and, and everyone has to make that choice on their own. And there will be many regressions. You know, I eventually took another 2 years to really eventually leave.

It's not easy.

It's not a quick, like, just walk away. It's not reaction. It's not instant gratification that we're talking about. It's really discerning where the choice is, you know. And you have attachments in the old life. You have memories in the old life. You have children in the old life. So it's a lot of pressure for women to make the choice with wisdom, with compassion, without guilt. It takes time to grow into that choice. And if we looked at marriage as a model just for growth, it would be so much easier. It was way harder for me because all of culture looks at marriage as a failure if it's not based on longevity. So then, then the partner has egoic issues around betrayal and hurt. But none of this would exist if we understood that it was based on growth in the first place.

So is that the world you'd like to see? I mean, I know I would. When people are like, let's get the questions you need to ask someone when you first meet them, and you talk about this as well. Well, like, do you have a growth mindset? What are your priorities? How much do you love yourself? Are you working on yourself? And instead we're looking at their jobs and their families. And it just seems like there's so much to, to teach people, right? In this way, we don't, we're often looking for what society has told us is important. And yeah, I talk about it so much, how important it is to do your work. But what I love about your book is you really do break down what that work is. And I love the way you talk about your inner, our inner child. I've heard you say that in a relationship, it's really just your two 5-year-old selves playing in a sandbox together. Can you talk more about that?

Yeah.

So we, we grow up with this conditioning which forces us to abandon our authenticity a long time ago. The conditioning of our culture and our childhood forces us to receive love and worth through false ways. So we learn we have to be beautiful, we have to be skinny, we have to be successful, we have to be rich, we have to be We have to be nice. We have to be pretty. We have to be kind. It's good to be kind, but you know what I mean. You have to be kind, you know. So we then forsake authenticity for all these ways of being. And when we forsake authenticity, we leave our true experience behind on the sidewalks of our childhood. When we leave our true experience behind and now we've developed a persona, which in the book I call the ego or the false self, The false self is relating to the world, and because it's false, it won't last. It, it will lead to resentment, burnout, addiction, because the false self is looking for worth based on something false. So just by that, its predication is that without it, it is unworthy. So it needs it to get love and worth. Without it, it is based on unworthiness. So unworthiness is right under the false self, therefore it'll never last. So at some point in our lives, we're going to have to confront our sense of unworthiness. And that's what really the whole book is about, is that at our core, we believe we are unworthy. That belief system is a lie. And unless we revoke that belief, unsubscribe from that premise that we are unworthy, we will keep attracting, uh, more false selves to more false selves, and the pattern will continue. So In order to now heal, we need to stop the false self, touch upon what's really underneath, which is— which are these feelings of insecurity and unworthiness, and begin to heal that. And that is a mental process, it's a psychological process, it's an emotional process. And I lay out the process in this book. The, the book is written to be a path, and if you read the book as a path and go on the path, at the end of the book you will have achieved some semblance of insight, awareness, and transformation.

Yeah. I recommend everyone goes on this path, um, on this journey with you in your book. So let's talk about this belief that we're all unworthy, that we are unlovable, that we're gonna be rejected. I mean, this often comes up on the show when we're talking about confronting or talking to your partner about what you want sexually, for example, like we think, well, they're gonna think I'm a freak or they're gonna abandon me or they're gonna leave me if I show 'em who I really am. Talk more about that trance of unworthiness.

Right. So because we were not seen for who it is we were as children, and because we were not honored for that just as we are, we have this pervasive sense that we're not good enough as we are. We need to be an athlete, a violin player, a good student. We need to become these things in order to become worthy. That's how our entire childhood is set up. That's how our education system is set up. So as children, we learn that we are good enough if and when only. So we have all these conditions. So therefore, you know, we are constantly trying to achieve those conditions, but we cannot always achieve those conditions. So the minute those conditions are not met, we are in a panic. So we have to really unpack this for ourselves and see that we have predicated our sense of worth on these factors. You know, so for me, it was on being the good girl, the pleasing girl. So it's very hard even today to let go of the pleaser because right under the pleaser is unworthiness. Who will I be? I will not be loved if I'm not a pleaser. So I'm trying to retire my pleaser. I'm trying to fire my pleaser. It's really hard because I'd rather please than be authentic, frankly. You know, that's just my mode. Like, I don't know how to undo it even today. I have to tape my mouth, bind my wrists so I don't act like a pleaser. So this is in these ways. So in this book, I talk about all the archetypes, the savior, the pleaser, the rescuer, the victim, the martyr.

I have so many of them there.

You break it down.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

I'm a pleaser too, and a perfectionist. And I was so excited for this interview and you covered so much. And I get nervous. I'm like, I just want this to be a great— I did it today too. I'm like, I don't even wanna talk. I just want her to talk. But then I talk over you. You know, I want you to like me. I mean, I do it all the time, but I often say I'm such a pleaser and it is not serving me anywhere. And that was definitely in my home growing up. I had to be nice. I had to be pleasing to everybody or I would, no one would listen. My mom had that blank face. Like if any emotions, like just, she didn't register unless I was happy. Right. And I often say we gotta do our work from childhood, but it's just like, you just don't get—

I think the other thing is you just don't get there.

Like, even you saying that today you had to do that, it's every— it is a daily practice.

Yeah, because what is embedded in those first 7 years is like, what the hell? Like, they know it doesn't get erased, you know? So now you have to, you have to always be present. And that's why present moment awareness is so key, because you can watch yourself doing it, you know. So now I can tell myself, oh, I'm in my pattern. Oh, I just did my pattern. Oh, you just gave trust away without caution. And that those are acts of the pleaser. So recognizing your pattern, and I talk about that all in part 2, is so key to realize that I'm doing this because I am anxious that I am unworthy. And it's hard for us competent women to get in touch with the fact that we're actually anxious. But it's not that we have to be crazy people, but we have this underlying sense that we will not be loved. So it's our bravado is that we're so competent, but underneath it's always there. And it may only come up in certain relationships. For you, it may come up in your career. For somebody else, in their motherhood. For somebody else, with their lover in the bedroom. Uh, but you have to notice it when it comes up and have great compassion for that part in you that has learned these ways from 0 to 7. And damn it, you have to, you know, pause it, disrupt it, and not let it override you. It's always there.

Don't think it's not there.

Well, even when you just said this, I had— before this, I had someone come over who's going to be working on my house. I'm leaving town for a day, and I was like, no worries, here's my code, come on in, I trust you. So just now I'm thinking I was just a pleaser to someone coming to fix my—

Women who are pleasers will relate. This relinquishing of trust And then we get screwed and then we're like, oh, when other people don't, we're like, how do you not get screwed? Well, the people who are not getting screwed have boundaries.

Okay. It's called boundaries.

Right. So we, like what you just did is classic pleaser. Okay. Of course I trust you, you know, and we just give bucketfuls without the person having done one thing to earn it.

Nothing.

One thing, nothing.

Yeah. Zero, zero things. He can do zero things and you've got my trust.

Correct.

So then right behind that is the victim or the martyr, right? Now you're, you're within 50 times of doing that. If you're lucky, it'll take 50. But sure enough, by the 50th time, you're going to get screwed, right? Somebody is going to do something to violate that un-abiding trust. Like, you've just been crazy trust. So number 50 is going to screw it. And right behind now is victim and martyr. And you're like, oh, poor me. Look, I'm a martyr. Why does this happen to me? People are assholes, which they are. But we've created the royal road to being an asshole, right? We're like, here's the carpet. Here's—

I'm rolling out the carpet.

And we've laid ourselves out. We're like, I'll lie down on it in case it's hard. So we have to watch our patterns. We have to watch this setup, right? So I have all these archetypes. I have the givers, of which is the pleaser, one of them, then the controllers, and then the takers. You know, in the takers, people don't like to be takers, but many of us are. It's the diva, the princess who thinks things should be done for her, given to her for free. And then the child who's just waiting, you know, the child is just waiting.

So I think everyone can recognize either themselves or their partners or their loved ones. And typically two don't match up. Like, I probably won't be with a pleaser per se.

Well, typically if you have to please, then you have to— if you're a giver, you need somebody to be a taker.

No.

So, right.

It's, that's the perfect matching sock is you be a g— I'll, you take and I'll give. Okay. Thank you. And then I'll be, then I'll be resentful and upset.

Right. I love, you also said, I let people come in for the first few, first few sessions and they're gonna talk about their boss. Then they're gonna complain about their partner and then their kids. And then you say to them, can you do the work? Are you ready to look at yourself?

Right, right, right. So that's very hard for people.

Really hard.

Because it's not that it's not true that they are with a narcissist taker. Of course they are. But they have to look at what they're doing to maintain the citadel of that relationship. It's a fortress. And it takes two to keep the fortress up.

Right?

So we are doing our part to allow the takers in our lives to take, or whatever dynamic we've set up in our lives. We are playing the other part, you know. So I teach pleasers, for example, you know, you're in a dance with life, meaning you have to wait for the person to do one step, then you do the— then you listen, then you discern, then you make a choice, then you act. You know, that's how you break a pattern. You wait for the, the moment to show up versus robotically doing your old pattern, your zombie pattern. So like you said, the guy came, you did your zombie pattern. He could be an axe murderer. Now Emily's gonna be all nervous.

I did get a recommendation from a very dear friend who said he's fabulous. So—

Correct, correct.

Seeing a therapist, seeing a counselor, seeing someone trusted, it's hard to do this on our own, isn't it?

At some point it gets hard to do it on your own. You start off by reading a book and I have courses. You can start off there, but at some point you're going to hit some real blind walls. Because that ego is a sneaky snake and it's going to tell you you're right and keep doing it and they're wrong.

So it is really important to get the counsel of somebody to do the work.

Thank you so much, Dr. Shefali. This was fabulous. I wanna ask you the 5 quickie questions we ask all of our guests. So they're quickie. What is your biggest turn-on?

A wise mind.

Biggest turn-off?

An unconscious mind.

What makes good sex?

Two whole individuals or more.

Something you tell your younger self about sex and relationships?

It's really important to explore.

What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex?

When allowed in a free container, it can be really an otherworldly experience.

I love it. I agree. Dr. Shefali, where can people find you? Buy your books, your courses, all the things. Join the Shefali world.

Uh, so on Instagram, it's Dr. spelled out, D-O-C-T-O-R Shefali. And then my website is dr, just drshefali.com.

Okay, we'll put all this in the show notes as well.

Thank you, Emily. Thanks for having me.

Of course. Thank you for being here. So appreciate it. That's it for today's episode.

See you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening to Sex with Emily, and be sure to like, subscribe, and give us a review wherever you listen to the podcast and share this with a friend or partner. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, or X, and Facebook. It's all @sexwithemily. Oh, and I've been told I give really good email, so sign up on sexwithemily.com. And while you're there, check out my free guides and articles for more ways to prioritize your pleasure. And if you'd like to ask me about your sex life, dating, or relationships, call my hotline, 559-TALK-SEX. That's 559-825-5739. Or just go to sexwithemily.com/askemily.

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