Breaking Out of Toxic Relationships With Therapist Jamye Waxman

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It comes down to that. Guy doesn't care for himself, let alone anybody else. Sarah, really nice to find self love.

Look into his eyes. They're the eyes of a man obsessed by sex. Eyes that mock our sacred institutions. Bedroom eyes, they call them in a box.

You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex.

On today's show, I'm talking about verbally and emotionally abusive relationships. In this episode, you're going to hear about a woman named Sarah who's in an emotionally abusive relationship. If you think listening to this could upset or trigger you, I invite you to check out one of our other podcasts. There are so many of them available, thousands of them. Plus we had a third bonus episode this week. If you or anyone you know is struggling in an unhealthy, abusive relationship, know you are supported. There are people out there who care about you and who want to help you. And please, please get help. You can call or chat Online with the National Domestic violence hotline@hotline.org or 1-800-799-safe or 1-800-799-7233. For everyone else, we're going to talk about how do you spot abusive behavior, things you should never put up within a relationship, and how to break the pattern of dating unhealthy partners. As I mentioned, there's a caller named Sarah who is in a really troubling relationship, and her call went on, and we really got into the details of how unhealthy this relationship truly is, and we went on a journey. We had callers who called in and offered their support. Also, my friend Jamie Waxman joins us, who's a marriage and family therapist, later on in the show. So before we get into the show, I just wanted to expand upon a few things that come up that, you know, we were in the moment talking to her, and it was all sort of unfolding in real time. But when I listened back, I just wanted to clarify some things for you. You know, there's a lot of language lately being thrown around about being with a tox or a narcissistic partner or abusive. And I just want to explain to you what that actually means. And so you could probably possibly spot it in yourself or with someone that you love. And if you do see that, I encourage you to share this episode with a loved one or a friend. So one of the things I throw out is I said, well, it sounds like he's gaslighting you. So to explain gaslighting, that is when someone manipulates you using psychological means, forcing you to question your own sanity. So it's one of those things where you're like, every time I bring something up to my partner, they just say that I'm wrong or, you know, they make you feel crazy. That is what gaslighting is. Some other ways to notice it is jealousy. And, you know, yes, we can all experience jealousy from time to time. But if your partner is jealous of everything, to the point where you just can't think for yourself or feel positively about any of your successes, your big wins, your small wins, when it's extreme jealousy, that's a problem. Another thing is controlling. They're questioning where you are. They become upset when you don't immediately answer texts, Both signs of controlling behavior, which definitely contribute to an unhealthy relationship. Resentment, they just hold onto grudges. They, you know, just chips away your intimacy, and you find yourself being more dishonest about things. Like maybe you find yourself making up lies, you know, you have to about your whereabouts or who you meet up with. Cause you just don't want to spend time with your partner. But you can't be honest. They're very disrespectful of you. They have negative financial behaviors. You know, they might make all the financial decisions, they might buy a lot of things and you know, withdraw large sums of money and they don't talk to you about it. You know, you feel really stressed out all the time. And yes, let me just say this. There are stressors in every relationship. You're gonna feel stress, there's gonna be tension. But when it's running through, coursing through every vein of the relationship and you find that you are constantly on edge, that's the indicator something's off. And then you feel like you're walking on eggshells all the time and there's a bomb about to explode that's also very unhealthy. And this actually does, this does take a toll on your physical and emotional health. If you find that you're ignoring your own needs. You know, perhaps you're going along with whatever your partner wants to do, even when it's extremely against your wishes or your comfort level. That is a sign of a toxic relationship for sure. Maybe you also feel like you've lost relationships. You've stopped spending time with friends and family. And maybe initially it was just you didn't want to have a conf with your partner. But then you realize that you just avoid it because you don't want to have to explain to your loved ones or your friends and family about what's actually happening in your relationship. Another thing is, and this would be something to look for for codependents who might be dating someone, toxic is you might find that your free time is spent completely dealing with your partner and their issues like they, they take over your whole life. You might also let go of your own self care. You might not be prioritizing yourself. Maybe you are no longer working out or neglecting your health and you're not with your friends. And so all the things that you had that made you feel sane are activities that you no longer participate in. Another thing is that you're hoping that it's gonna change. Maybe you are staying in this relationship because there's potential. You've seen that spark. It was there early on. They're a great dad, they're a great mother, they're really nice to people at work and they're stand up citizen. And so you just keep thinking they're going to change so those are just some signs that you might be in a healthy relationship. And I want you guys to use this episode as a tool, you know, for yourself to support yourself, but also in hearing all the support and the love. And you could even use this as a visualization of how your life could be if you are going through something like this, that wherever you're at right now, you are not stuck. You don't have to stay in an unhealthy relationship. There will be people that can help you, and you will be able to turn your life around. And if you know somebody who could benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them, Share it with your family, share with your friends. Thank you, everybody, for listening and for going on this journey with me. And I look forward to hearing from you how this episode impacted you, and if this was helpful. And please just know you're supported and you will find your way. And it just takes one step, taking action and reaching out. You just need, like, one friend or one trusted source that can help you move through wherever you're at right now. All right, so let's start the show. Let's hear from Sarah.

Let's talk to Sarah, 29, in Texas. Hi, Sarah. Thanks for calling. What's going on?

How can I. Hi, how are you?

I'm good. Good to hear from you.

Good. Well, I just. I've been listening to your podcast, and I found it, I guess, because of what I'm going through right now. And it's just. I just want to say that your advice has really helped me so far, and I just am looking for a little more. So I.

My husband, I have been married for four years, together for eight, and we have twin boys, two years old. So about. I mean, like a year and a half ago, he came to me, and because I had noticed he was just being really distant and not initiating anything with me, not even, like, giving me hugs or just even, like, acknowledging me, really. And so I went to him and I asked what was going on, and I kind of had to dig it out of him a little bit.

And he finally let me know that he was no longer attracted to me anymore. And so it really hurt, but I just kind of took it, and I was like, okay, I'll just work on myself. So I been doing that. That was about a year and a half ago. I've lost over £30, and I'm now way less than I did before I had the boys. And when we got married, okay, nothing has changed. He. I. I went to him and asked him. And he still says he doesn't find me attractive. He actually called me obese and told me to go to the doctor and Sarah get, like, confirmation. And I am, like, I'm. No way. Everyone talk to me about my weight. I am 150 pounds. Like, I don't. I don't. I don't think I consider that to be obese. No, he. Like, there's no physical contact, and we've. We've done the love love languages before. And I've told him multiple times that I need that, the physical touch.

And I. I just don't. I don't get it. And I don't. Just don't know what to do.

Sweetie, I'm so sorry. Sarah. This sounds really, really painful and it sounds really toxic and not healthy. I don't like that he called you obese and that he told you he's not attracted to you and that you still have to live with him and see him every day. And. And that is so upsetting to me.

I'm not at home right now. I rented a Airbnb by my friend because I just needed, like, a weekend away where I felt like I could be upset because if I get upset when he tells me those things, he flips it around on me. And we are not. Like, he makes my feelings invalid. Like, if I tell him that that hurt my feelings, he's like, well, you made me say it. You. You made me say those things. I didn't want to say those things.

I wanted to make things better. Like, I was trying to figure out why you were distant, but he just said, I don't know what to do.

This sounds to me like gaslighting. Have you heard that term every time you bring something up to your partner? So gaslighting means that every time you bring something up to a partner, they twist it around and throw it back at you. That nothing you can say is ever true. Like, he'll. He'll take, you know, the sky is blue, and he'll say, you know, how dare you say the sky blue? The sky is red. You know, it's like you can't win in that area. And it sounds kind of, really, kind of abusive. Honey, I don't know if you're talking to your. Do friends or family support near you.

I actually don't talk to my family anymore. That's kind of a whole nother can of words. I was sexually abused by my dad since I was three, and so I no longer talk to him. My mom, long story short, she knew it was happening and never took me out of that situation. And so since I had my boys, I've kind of had this like mental. Not breakdown, but just like kind of woken up and I'm. I'm in therapy and feeling a lot better now about it, but I don't really have family support.

Okay. Good friends.

I do have a lot of friends.

Yeah. I mean, Sarah, you guys been together eight years since you were young. You're only 29, and you've been together for a really long time. And I just don't think this sounds healthy. And it's really destructive. Like, we want our partners to be so supporting and to be loving and to support us in our. In what you're doing. And you've two little boys at home. I mean, is he, is he around the kids? Does he help you with parenting?

Oh, yeah, he. Yeah, he's a stay at home dad. He's great with the kids. But I just can't get past what he said to me. He said, he also told me, and this was kind of my, like breaking point was he said that if I'm happy with who I am now, then he's going to leave.

Oh, my God.

Those are his exact words.

Sarah, this is toxic.

I think I know that. I think I just am looking for like, confirmation. I just am. He makes me feel so crazy all the time. I feel like I just need, like, effort.

Yeah.

Sarah, I'm giving you affirmation. I'm giving you confirmation and I'm giving you affirmation that even one of those things, even saying you have to lose weight a year and a half ago, telling you that he's no longer attracted to you, threatening you. These are threats, Sarah. If you don't change, then I'm leaving. If you don't stay, that you're not even saying you want to change. And the fact that he's. He's got his own agenda, it sounds like he's very toxic. You're not going to be able to win. And I would love you to get out of this relationship. And it sounds like, I mean, what does your therapist say as well? I mean, I'm telling you that I. And we're all heartbroken here. We're all like, look like I'm a Zoom and everyone's just like, we're all. Our heart goes out to you and I really want you to be safe and get some help and. Yeah. What does your therapist say?

Yeah, I talked to her Thursday and she said to just that it would. I've been wanting to just Take a weekend. And she said that that would be a really good idea to just go and be with people like to support me. And I haven't done that because I feel like I'm. He said he didn't want me to go because that's not what you do when you're married. You don't get time to yourself. And I was like, I just need him to think. I just need faith. So I.

None of that's true. None of that's true. Sarah, I'm so proud of you. Listen, he sounds very controlling. He sounds abusive. Do you feel safe with him? Is he, is he ever physical with you? Like physical?

No, it's never physical. It's just always been very, like, verbal and I like mental.

She's messing with you, Sarah. And you've had a lot of vulnerabilities growing up from sexual abuse, from not talking either with your family. And then you kind of grew up with him. You went to, you, you went from your parents home or maybe college to his home. And it sounds like he is not a healthy partner for you. Any one of these things. Not having sex with you, telling you that he's not attracted to you, telling you to lose weight. Because listen, and I, I appreciate that you went and got healthier, you went to the gym. But with, with this personality type, there'll be another thing after this. It's not about that. He doesn't know how to be in a healthy relationship. And, and since you were probably in a very vulnerable place when you met, having separated from your family and I would just. If you can get out of this relationship. I mean, Sarah, I hate that I don't know that people with your husband's personality type are able to heal this. Only if he'd be willing to go to therapy with you. That's what relationship. That's what couples do. And yes, parents need to take time for themselves. They have to. So he's wrong about that. He's wrong to say that that's, I mean, everything he's telling you is not true. And I'm just telling you, honey, I really want you to get to be in a healthy place in this. And I don't think it's going in that direction.

Yeah, I mean, he, he signed us up for therapy, but I am hesitant to go because the conversation leading up to him doing that was him telling me we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for me and that if I would just lose weight, then this wouldn't be a problem. And I asked him, I was like, so our marriage is riding on my weight.

That's not love. Okay, Sarah?

That's not love.

That's where I'm at right now. It's just like, if you don't love me right now, then I don't think that I want it.

You're right, Sarah. I very rarely on the show tell people that you done, but to me that is like he would need years and years and years of therapy to become a kind, loving, supportive human. And any one of those things, I would say, don't be with this guy. I. It's so toxic. It's not about the weight. It's never. Even when couples call me and say I'm not attracted to my partner anymore. It's never about the thing that they think it is. And usually it's because he's probably not happy with himself. Who knows what's going on with him. Maybe he feels about money or finances or he, it's. It's so toxic, Sarah. And I'm afraid that, like, I want you to, you know, even if you go to therapy twice a week, this is also really. It's verbally abusive, it's mentally abusive. It's so unhealthy, Sarah, on so many levels. And I just, I just want to give you a hug and I want you to, to be strong and I want you to take care of yourself and take those boys and I mean, I guess you could go to therapy, but what's he going to sit down and tell the therapist, oh, she doesn't lose weight. I mean, I just, I think if you guys, you're going to have to co parent still if you get to, you know, if you separate. So. But I don't know if he could, maybe he would be willing to learn. I mean, I don't think therapy's a bad idea, but I don't know that you'd be able to heal this. I'm just so, I'm so heartbroken for you and I'm so sorry and I'm really glad you called. I think that we've done a lot of shows about toxic relationships. He could be a narcissist. He's gaslighting you. He's. It's really abusive, Sarah. And I've only probably just heard that little bit of it, you know, I'm sure there's more.

Yeah.

On a day that you don't even see, you don't even see it anymore. Probably because it's still there, you know, or maybe you do, but it's just, I mean, that's the weight is bad but I'm sure it's every time you turn around you're doing this wrong. You put the trash out wrong. Don't put the diaper on like that. Don't make the bed like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, Yeah. I grew up with someone like that. Not a parent, but I get it. But you'll get out of this relationship and then you'll start to see that there's going to be a lot of self loving practice rewiring your brain. But I just don't feel good about it. So what's your next step going to be?

That's kind of what my weekend away is. I'm just trying to do my meditations and.

Great.

Just really like think about what I want and what my opinions are because I never. I feel like I don't know what they are.

Yeah, exactly. You wouldn't. Well, you sound really on top of it though, Sarah. You sound like you know what you need. Because when you are with somebody who's sort of like being this abusive, it's really hard to separate and realize who you are. But it's okay to put yourself first. It's okay to call your therapist if you need to this weekend. I'm here for you if you wanna call back. But I'm really glad you called and I'm so glad that you're see that you, you deserve more than this and it's not healthy place for you to live right now.

The old me I think would have not been. That's on top of it. But I think the therapy's really helped in realizing some things about my life and myself and well, keep doing the therapy.

I'm really proud of you. Yes, I'm really proud of you. You're doing great work. I'm so glad you're seeing therapist.

Yeah.

Thank you, Sarah. I'm here if you need me. Thank you for calling. Take care of yourself. Bye Sarah. Have a great night. All right, I'm gonna take a break. But you guys, I don't know, maybe that's relatable to some people. We hear a lot about toxic relationships. Please take care of yourself. Get therapy, Work on yourself. I'll be right back. Sex with Emily.

We're all just. Our hearts are all going out to Sarah and we're just all kind of shook from that and sending her a lot of love and she started therap and that's been very helpful for her to realize that she's not crazy and that, that she does not deserve to be Treated like that by truly anybody. Paul, 51 in Oregon has some comments about Sarah's call. Hey, Paul, thanks for calling. That was heartbreaking.

Hi, Emily.

Hey. Good to hear from you.

Oh, it just broke my heart. I'm on the road. I listen to you all the time. And quick little background. My wife and I, we've been married together for 30 years.

And when I heard her say that, he told her that married people don't need to be alone like that on a trip that she's taken is totally, totally wrong.

Yep.

I mean, my wife, in the past 30 years, she's gone on girl trips. I've gone on guy trips. And, you know, I guess a natural. I just wanted Sarah to know that not all guys are like that. And she. She will find somebody that's gonna love her for exactly who she is.

Exactly, Paul. Thank you for saying that. That's so true. It's like. And couples that I know who spend time apart, who have, you know, they work on the road or they travel a few weeks a year, are actually a lot healthier because they have that distance. They have lives outside of each other. To me, that is one of the cornerstones of healthy relationships, you know, So I think you're absolutely right. Yeah. And couples who support you, you don't want to be with someone who's trying to control you in any way. And somebody says, oh, you can't hang out with the boys or no girls. It's like you leave those relationships. Really.

I totally agree. And I'm no doctor. By. By.

No, you don't.

That guy is not gonna change. I've seen it all my life. Yeah, he's. He's not gonna change. I don't care what kind of therapy he gets.

Well, that's what I said. I mean. Exactly.

Be happy.

I think it's a personality disorder. It just sounds really abusive. It could be narcissism. It could be. Who knows what. But you're right. That guy's not going to change. Not in her lifetime. I mean, as much work as he does, but still. Yeah. He probably won't even see what's up. So. Thank you, Paul.

Well, she sounds like a really sweet lady, and she just needs to be happy. And, you know, her kids. You know, her kids don't need to be around that.

Right, Exactly. And she says, he's a great dad. It's like, I don't know that you'd be a great dad and you could treat your wife like that. To be honest, I'm not sure that that's Exactly. It's a. It's like you are who you are wherever you go. And I just think it's. You're right. She sounds really sweet and she's working on herself and she will find someone for sure. And thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. It's really helpful. Yeah, thanks for composing. Have a great weekend. Daniel, 63 in Utah also has a comment about Sarah's call. Hey, Daniel, what's going on? Thanks for calling Foreign.

I'm almost in tears.

Listening to that.

Bear with me a little bit, okay.

It comes down to that guy doesn't care for himself, let alone anybody else. He has no self love. And Sarah's been abused. So Sarah really nice to find self love for herself. And once she finds that, she wouldn't put up with anything like that.

Right? So true, Daniel. Yeah. She met him at a young age with him since she was 21. You know, and it is true people act out like that because they don't, you know, her husband probably had his own childhood stuff or. But you're right, once you get to a certain point in your healing process, you realize that you would never even start stand for someone, you know, you wouldn't have a friend talk to you like that. A boss talk to you like that. Oh, Daniel, thank you. Yeah, that really hit all of us here.

That's what I mean. And it's thing if Sarah had love for herself, she wouldn't put up with it.

Right.

You know, and he definitely doesn't have any love for himself, let alone anybody else.

Exactly.

You know, and I'm sure he's had.

His own trolling.

And he's just tearing her down because that's the way he feels inside himself.

Exactly. It gives him some kind of power or can something, you know, control when he just really isn't loving himself. To just externally try to control everything around you is a defense tactic to not have to look at ourself.

Man. Well, I'm glad she realized it, Daniel. You know, it's never too late. She's 29 years old and she's going to do her work and she's going to get out of the relationship and have a really full rich life. And she won't let anyone treat her like this again.

My advice would be run like hell and learn to love yourself.

Yep. I agree, Daniel. It's a lifelong process. Thank you, Emily. All right. Thank you, Daniel. I appreciate it. We are just all loving up Sarah here and we really want you to. We're here for you. Take care of yourself and it is this whole journey of self love.

It's a lifelong journey, right? Self like self love. But if someone treats you in a way that doesn't feel good, you have to think to yourself, would I, would I treat someone like this? If you feel that someone has done something or said something, you're first off. You're probably right. But I think sometimes when we've grown up in an abusive environment and we don't have a lot of great experience with people who had boundaries with us, people who were there for us, relationships that were consistent and loving, we don't even know what a healthy relationship looks like. So I'm gonna assume that when Sarah met him at 21, you know, you don't know who you are. You're still figuring it out. And, you know, I'm just glad. I hope this is also getting some other people to think about toxic situations they're in. It's really easy to kind of blame ourselves or think, well, maybe they're right. Especially if we have low self esteem, like really low. I think we all struggle with self esteem, but we have something where it's also familiar to a family environment. I mean, Sarah was saying that she grew up with abuse in her home. Her dad abused her and her mom said it wasn't happening. Her mom ignored it. So if you think about it the way that her, the reason why, like, maybe perhaps her husband is attractive to her is because that's a conditioning pattern. Oh, here's a guy who disregards what I say like it didn't happen. And that's familiar. So that must be love. No, it's familiar to a toxic pattern from your childhood that we're going to continue to repeat unless we break the cycle. And when people say break the cycle, break the pattern, it's exactly what we mean. So we are sending you so much love, Sarah. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to get back into your call and your questions.

I'm joined now by marriage and family and sex therapist Jamie Waxman. If you want to know more about Jamie Waxman, you can find her at waxmansextherapy.com hi, Jamie. During the break, we were talking about this call and this situation with Sarah, who has an emotionally abusive husband. And I'm just wondering, do you see abusers like this change?

I think people have the capacity to change and grow, for sure. I do think it takes a lot of time, effort and patience. And I do think that the person has to want to change for themselves. That if you're part. If you're. If you're asking your partner to change, it's less likely that the change will be what you're looking for. I really think you have to accept somebody where they are at and not where you want them to be. And I think that's really hard for a lot of us because we see the potential in so many of our partners, and we fall in love with that potential. But the potential isn't what's happening in the presence. Once I loved what you just said about the representative going away. Once that representative leaves, then the true colors are there. And when a person shows you their true colors, do not try to paint over them. This is who they are, and this is where they are at. And if they are willing to do the work for themselves, then change is possible. But if they're doing the work for you, then that change is less likely to stick.

Murray, 62, in Canada is on the phone. He's got comments about Sarah's call. Hey, Murray, what's going on? What are your thoughts on Sarah?

Yeah, Emily and Jamie. Pleasure to be on tonight. Basically, when I was in college in counseling and psychology courses, many, many years ago, probably when Natalie was running around in diapers, we had two or three young ladies in our class that had been in very toxic relationships and had managed to get out of them. And we would ask them, why would you go back over and over again? And the simple answer from them was, we loved our partners. And for us on the outside, it was unbelievable that they would go back and continue to get physically beat up and broken and stuff, but it would just get worse until they either were injured beyond belief or got out. Basically what I say, it's nothing new for you, Emily and Jamie, but when you get a partner that's trying to say you can't have bank accounts, you can't go out with your friends, you can't go out for coffee, or they're down talking. You like you don't look like you used to, or. Or you don't look good enough or you don't perform well enough. That's a relationship you got to get out of. Look for counseling immediately to get that support and get permission to leave and understand why you're leaving. Because as you said earlier, Emily, if you've been in a past relationship, like with a parent, and you've been abused, then you tend to go back and look for or drop into those relationships later in life and get husbands that way. And so if you can get out of that relationship and understand why you're leaving or why you even got into it in the first place, then hopefully you can stay out of that relationship the next time around. I mean, I'm a long haul truck driver, and in my relationship, my wife has her own bank account. She can go see her friends. I'm on the road. She trusts me with fidelity in a relationship, even if I'm on the road three, four, five days a week before I get back. That's the kind of relationship I appreciate because I trust her. She trusts me.

Yeah, that's true. Murray, thank you so much for your insights. I totally appreciate it. And thank you everybody for calling in and supporting our girl Sarah. Because, you know, Jamie, it was really. She shared with us that she was abused by her father and that her mother didn't protect her. And so she doesn't talk to her parents anymore. And she's been with this guy since she was 21. So I'm sure it's like that pattern of finding somebody attractive or seemingly attractive because it's a familiar scenario from our childhood. You know, it sounded like her mother didn't support her, but she came to her. And so it's just that sort of cycle breaking that cycle. And I think Sarah really demonstrated to us why. Why therapy? Because I'm always talking about therapy or why it's so important, but I don't. Jamie, it's a lot.

It's a lot of work to change that cycle. It's so hard. And I mean, there's so much that comes up, right? Like, I mean, there's. First of all, in imago work and imago therapy, the idea that you choose a partner based on your primary caregiving upbringing and the history around that. And so you have to go through that cycle to understand why you make those choices. I mean, to hear that Sarah was 21, I don't know how old she was when she left her family and stopped talking to them, but it sounds like there might have been some. Like this is the first guy who maybe believed her or whatever it was. And so then there's the Stockholm syndrome, that your captor is like really the best person for you. And like that is they're keeping you safe by protecting you so much. And I think for her to be 29 and to get out of this, that's actually young for a lot of people. They don't see this so quickly. And I mean, you see this with domestic violence a lot. It's really hard to get the person who is being abused out of the relationship. And they go back Frequently. And people don't out from the outside, don't understand why, but this is what they know and this is what they've created in their head to be safe. And that this must be what love is. Because what love was, wasn't working. If my parents didn't love me or believe my mom didn't love me and believe me, or if my father thought that violating me was love, there's a very confusing message about what love is too.

I wish we taught all this stuff to be. I wish that they were a requirement in schools to understand healthy relationships. I mean, because otherwise then you just spend your life, I guess, figuring it out. You know, people like us who have always been on a path and we've been searching and we're in journeys and you know, we. Yeah.

And I will say I have had many non healthy relationships in my life. You know, I admit that openly because that's how I've learned and grown. And I can't say I'm like proud of that fact, but. But it's gotten me to where I am and it took me a long time to get there. But to finding a healthy relationship that really worked and to accepting that for myself. And I think that that personal experience as well is something that I find is really helpful as a therapist, like to have that life experience and to know when somebody tells you that you need to lose weight, that you're not hot enough. Right. I've been in that relationship really. And I remember thinking, well, maybe they're right because they are really attractive and like they chose me anyway. Like, I mean, there's a whole mindset that can go with that and it happens to all types of people. You know, no matter what your IQ or what your upbringing, like, you can fall into this when you also just don't trust yourself.

Trusting ourselves is so key. And I too have been in unhealthy relationships. I think as therapists, sometimes people assume we've always made the right choices and everything's been perfect. No, you know, I think that that's part of the work. We still go to therapy, we still, you know, we're figuring it out and you just sort of get better at it. I guess you start to. And you don't end up at a perfect relationship. Let's just say that that doesn't exist. But the really like toxic choices. A lot of times I wasn't available either. So maybe I was the one. I was not available. I was not somebody who trusted that I could go the distance with somebody because I felt Trapped in relationships, they didn't feel safe. And so I would keep them very, like at ar. And I think a lot of partners used to say to me, well, I don't. I can't tell if you're gonna break up or we're gonna get married. Like, I. I don't know where you're gonna go. Are you in? Are you out? You know, what was really going on is I was really afraid to let somebody in, to open up and to be vulnerable because of my history, my chaotic upbringing. I thought that people would leave, they would abandon me, and that relationships, intimate relationships, weren't safe because people very close to me would be gone. You know, my parents got divorced, and, you know, my dad died when I was at a young age. And so through all those experiences, I wasn't trusting relationships. Now, at the time, in my 20s, let's say, when I was going through this stuff, I didn't really. I wasn't able to pinpoint it, why I was so unavailable to my partners and why I couldn't commit. I just thought, well, I'm busy and there's so many people out there. And I didn't understand the value of the depth and the beauty and the intensity and the love that can come from really learning to be vulnerable and trust someone and letting people into your life and letting people get close. You know, I could always do that with my friends, but I was never able to do it with a romantic partner. So that's been my journey. And I want you to know this, that if you, you know, not everybody. I'm not saying that you need to open up to every partner, you know, on the second date, tell. Show them who you are and be really vulnerable, because that can. We can also get hurt when we trust too quickly. But if you do feel that you're in a safe, loving relationship, and then you do open up and share a vulnerable part about yourself, and then they use it against you. Maybe they gaslight you. They use your intimate, vulnerable details as a weapon, while that's a sign that you're in an unhealthy relationship and that person isn't right for you. We all want people, and we deserve people who can be there for us when we're at our worst, that they want to hear about your wounds and the things that make you sad and the things that have brought you to where you are today. They're interested in your journey. They're interested and interesting. They also have done their work. You know, I used to always say, I want to be with people who've done their work and done therapy. And then what I realized is I. Even though I was in therapy, I was just scratching the surface at that time. I hadn't even, you know, I had the language like, oh, I'm not available. But I didn't really. I wasn't able to really get into it until I just kept sticking with it. Kept sticking with it. I'm like, there's, you know, for my own path, it was like, well, there's. Everyone else seems to love relationships. I must be, you know, what are the other parts I need to work on the healthiest relationships I know that can truly go the distance. Not just people here on my show, but even friends and family who are truly in loving relationships. They are vulnerable with each other. They do support each other. Yes, it can be tense and it can be stressful, and you go through hard times. Relationships are not perfect, but they are not so unhealthy and stressful and toxic. More so than they're not. So what I. What good formula to think about in your relationship? If it is more bad than good, this is a great formula. Okay, just think about this. If it is, if it sucks, like, 60% of the time, but 40% of the time, it's great. That might be a really quick way to look at it. Okay, now, there's some relationships that are, you know, they're good 60% and bad 40%, I'd say. Okay, let's look at that. I don't think you need to leave that relationship tomorrow. But if it is that troubling and it's consuming, like, you know, all the things I mentioned at the top of the episode, that is probably time to get some help. Listen to the people that you love. If they're telling you you should leave a relationship, not just one person, but, like, a few people, and you're avoiding your friends and your family might be a sign that you need to get help and find a healthier relationship. We are not born with these tools. Nobody points out to us this is healthy. This is unhealthy. So that's why I'm here to support you on your journey. And that's why I thought that this episode was a really important episode for you all to sort of help yourself or help the ones you love. And if anyone you, you care about or you yourself is going through abusive relationship or experiencing an abusive relationship, visit hotline.org or call 1-800-799-SAFE or 1-800-799-7233. All right, that's it. For today's episode. I'll see you on Tuesday.

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